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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha, and welcome to stephone

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Speaker 1: Never told your production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome to our series on Christianity. We're just gonna

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Speaker 2: leave it at that. We are now on part six

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Speaker 2: of Christianity, Religious Trauma and the Marginalized Community aka Western

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Speaker 2: Christianity and how it affects the Marginalized People, and so

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Speaker 2: many more titles that I've given it at this point.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, the series just keeps growing. Every time I

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Speaker 2: think I'm going to be talking about two or three

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Speaker 2: things in a series, it ends up being just one thing.

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Speaker 2: And that's where we are today once again. But before

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Speaker 2: we start, there is content warning. We are talking about

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Speaker 2: religious trauma, sickness, domestic violence, and divorce, and I don't know,

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Speaker 2: divorce can be a sticky subject, especially if you're going

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Speaker 2: through one or you're going through bad parts in your

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Speaker 2: marriage and you don't want to hear about it. We're

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Speaker 2: talking all about divorce today, So go ahead and skip

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Speaker 2: this one, just so you know, And as a quick review, Annie,

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Speaker 2: because I know I've been stringing you along in this

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Speaker 2: entire series. As I'm like, hey, we'll do this is

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Speaker 2: another day or longer than I thought let's just do

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Speaker 2: this quick review. We've talked about women in Western Christian

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Speaker 2: communities and traditions, religious trauma, which is you know, present

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Speaker 2: all throughout, the misogyny that heavily influences this culture, the

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Speaker 2: toxicity of purity culture, which also seems to be a

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Speaker 2: whole topic in every single one of our episodes, sexual

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Speaker 2: abuse in Southern Baptist Convention, Courting marriage and motherhood, which

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Speaker 2: was a fun one. And today we are continuing down

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Speaker 2: that look of relationships, I guess, with a look at

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Speaker 2: Western Christianity and divorce. And right now we are going

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Speaker 2: to talk pretty in depth about divorce. Some of it

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Speaker 2: doesn't really have to do with religion. We're just kind

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Speaker 2: of talking about of the process and some of the

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Speaker 2: conversations and statistics. This is mainly applied to the United States,

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Speaker 2: because I know, and we want to come back because

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Speaker 2: we had a fun conversation, and I say fun in

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Speaker 2: that we were both like, huh, I wonder what this is?

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Speaker 2: What this is about how to get a divorce?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I didn't know that there were all these

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Speaker 1: stipulations that you can't just get a divorce.

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Speaker 2: Well, so we're going to talk about the no fault

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Speaker 2: divorce in a minute. Apparently there's other things that have

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Speaker 2: been put in place for a while, but it's about

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Speaker 2: how people can test things and how it gets messy.

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Speaker 2: So and different states have different rules and different belief systems,

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Speaker 2: and different kind of communities in denominations also have their

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Speaker 2: own rules. Yeah, but all of that, and then different

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Speaker 2: countries have their own rules as well. So we're centering

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Speaker 2: this around the United States. And yes, eventually it does

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Speaker 2: come back to how Christianity handles divorce as well, so

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Speaker 2: I promise this all applies. So before we start, I

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Speaker 2: kind of wanted to talk about my personal experience about

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Speaker 2: divorce in my church that I grew up with, because

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Speaker 2: this is a very personal subject growing up very religious

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Speaker 2: and coming out of religion as I knew it. And

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Speaker 2: I've seen the emails that y'all have been sending about this.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I know people have been connecting

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Speaker 2: with what I've been saying, as well as people who

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Speaker 2: are still involved in the church and finding their own path,

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Speaker 2: and it's beautiful. Thank you for those messages. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I kind of want to talk about what I experienced,

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Speaker 2: and again, my church is a little different. It's not

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Speaker 2: big and that is part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

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Speaker 2: It's not a part of the Presbyterian Churches. It's not

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Speaker 2: a part of any of those denominations. It kind of

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Speaker 2: has an independent feel about it and it's very local.

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Speaker 2: So this experience can be unique in that way. But

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Speaker 2: I feel like overall, especially when it comes to old

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Speaker 2: school way of thinking and when we talk about the

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Speaker 2: traveling preachers and all of that, this is kind of

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Speaker 2: that circuit that this is the influence that fell onto

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Speaker 2: my community, like that that hell five brimstone level. So,

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Speaker 2: growing up in a small town in Georgia, the word

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Speaker 2: divorce had so many implications. It was a sin, and

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Speaker 2: I'm going to put a capital s sin. Divorce was

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Speaker 2: not only a personal failure, but a moral failure and

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Speaker 2: a failure on your family, one that had to be

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Speaker 2: answered in front of the church. Dixie Church, though in

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Speaker 2: my experience, the members did not necessarily have to get

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Speaker 2: permission from the church, but oftentimes had to go after

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Speaker 2: the fact to face the deacons or leaders, typically men

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Speaker 2: of the church, and if they are not satisfied with

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Speaker 2: the answer, you would be reprimended and oftentimes expelled from

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Speaker 2: that church. So your membership would be done, and I

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Speaker 2: don't As a kid, when I heard membership your name

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Speaker 2: was in the book, I thought it was a literal thing.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it is. I don't know, but that's how.

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Speaker 2: That's how I pictured this, because I will say when

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Speaker 2: I was quote unquote say became a member, I didn't

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Speaker 2: sign anything, so I don't know how that happened. I

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Speaker 2: did say I wanted to be a part of this

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Speaker 2: church in front of the members. I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I bet churches do that differently. I feel like my

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Speaker 1: church had like a book of memberships.

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Speaker 2: Yea, there may be one. I really don't know, but

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't And then they had to take letters,

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Speaker 2: like if they wanted to go to a different church,

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Speaker 2: they had to take their letter. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: is that physical? Is that a physical thing? And I've

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Speaker 2: never personally seen it though, so I don't know it's

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Speaker 2: the whole thing, but yeah, the level of shame placed

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Speaker 2: on people getting divorced is overwhelming. The way they looked

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Speaker 2: down on divorce and even in pragice, the outside of

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Speaker 2: marriage and God forbid abortion was extreme. Having an affair

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Speaker 2: or even even abusing a spouse was less shameful, mostly

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Speaker 2: justifying it as a quote mistake. Even again, we talked

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Speaker 2: about it with people hiding sexual abuse within church, hiding

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Speaker 2: all of those things and being like they made a

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Speaker 2: mistake of rewording it. They send against their marriage instead

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Speaker 2: of being no, you raped somebody, that's that's bad. But

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Speaker 2: I will say maybe murder would be considered on that level,

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Speaker 2: but only if that murder was not justified for a

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Speaker 2: holy reason, and sometimes even excusing husbands who killed their wives.

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Speaker 2: Recent articles written about the man who killed his entire

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Speaker 2: family had so many excerpts talking about how godly he

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Speaker 2: was and how attentive he was to his church, his family,

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Speaker 2: his mom and dad, siblings made sure that his obituary

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Speaker 2: and messages from acquaintances only acknowledged how godly and christian

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Speaker 2: like he was, even having the audacity to say he

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Speaker 2: loved his murdered family and fought to keep them together,

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Speaker 2: never admitting to his abusive and overall deadly treatment of them.

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Speaker 2: It was horrifying, and if I remember correctly, his church

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Speaker 2: supported that statement. Oh yeah, wow, yeah. And then you

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Speaker 2: look at murders like the Atlantis spallshootings and murders of

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Speaker 2: so many quick people that have often been praised by

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Speaker 2: extremist conservatives and Christian nationalists. Again, we're talking about recently,

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Speaker 2: any of the Black Lives Matter protest murders that have happened,

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Speaker 2: whether it's I don't even want to talk about him,

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Speaker 2: Kyle was his face. I don't want to acknowledge him,

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Speaker 2: or people like that. The dude in Texas who used

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Speaker 2: his vehicle to hurt people, they've been praising him instead

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Speaker 2: of acknowledging, Hey, this is bad. Why are you condoning this? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it isn't shocking that morality is judged harsher than

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Speaker 2: actual murder and abuse. But that's a different episode. I

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Speaker 2: was going to talk about it in this episode, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't have time. We don't have time for that,

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Speaker 2: so that's gonna be a whole different conversation. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: my parents have been together for over fifty years now,

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Speaker 2: and I've mentioned it before that they were really happily married.

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Speaker 2: I think they really whether the harshest storms together. They've

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Speaker 2: beat the odds, and I'm pretty sure they'll die together.

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Speaker 2: And I don't mean like they're they're gonna make a

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Speaker 2: pact or anything like if one goes, the other one

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Speaker 2: is gonna follow soon after, and that's like, that's the

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Speaker 2: happiest thing I could think for them, so they don't

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Speaker 2: have to be without each other. But my siblings are

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Speaker 2: a whole different story, and I'm not gonna get too

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Speaker 2: into their stuff, but I will say each one went

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Speaker 2: through their own messy divorce with an unhealthy dose of guilt,

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Speaker 2: but each would say they're happier and don't regret their decisions.

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Speaker 2: I think our church was shocked and a lot of

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Speaker 2: judgment was passed. It was a rocky time for our family.

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Speaker 2: The amount of people who have known us all of

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Speaker 2: our lives, have seen us grow up in that church,

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Speaker 2: who actually turn their backs on our family was astounding.

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Speaker 2: It was and I was young. I was I guess

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Speaker 2: it was middle school when things were happening, and to

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Speaker 2: see that reaction from somewhere that I thought I was

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Speaker 2: loved was a chocking moment, so much so that we

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Speaker 2: didn't talk to those people, and we still don't talk

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Speaker 2: to those people till this day. It's been more than

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Speaker 2: a decade since these incidents. More has probably longer. It's

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Speaker 2: been a long long time, probably twenty years for some

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Speaker 2: of these things I don't know, and it caused a

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Speaker 2: huge divide in our church community. They took size and

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Speaker 2: made sure you knew which side they were on. If

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Speaker 2: they didn't take a side, it was because they felt

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Speaker 2: sorry for us, but didn't want to say it to

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Speaker 2: our face, because they didn't want the other people who

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Speaker 2: were judging us to feel like they were taking side.

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Speaker 2: So it was really, really, really u interesting. It was bitter,

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Speaker 2: and it was gross, and it was very unforgiving, and

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Speaker 2: it didn't matter the reason. It didn't matter what the

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Speaker 2: justification was. It was divorced and that was bad. And

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Speaker 2: my family wasn't the only one that went through this.

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Speaker 2: Any divorced individual felt that really harsh thing of judgment

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Speaker 2: that many of the elders felt justified in passing and

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Speaker 2: may even call them out during sermons. Many of these

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Speaker 2: people fled from the church, feeling unwelcomed in ex community

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Speaker 2: and isolated themselves away from any of the people of

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Speaker 2: that church, literally hid away from some of the members.

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Speaker 2: But instead of being angry at the people who felt

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Speaker 2: that they had to the authority to shame anyone and everyone,

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Speaker 2: they just felt guilty and felt like they deserved this

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Speaker 2: and for so many felt like this ruined their lives.

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Speaker 2: I will my family again are at the end of

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Speaker 2: like understanding what they had to do. They had to

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Speaker 2: do and they can't change people's minds. But so many

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Speaker 2: others let this ruin their lives. And I'm not exaggerating.

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Speaker 2: They wouldn't even come to the parking lot of the

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Speaker 2: church because they felt that ashamed, and if they did,

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Speaker 2: they made sure to stay in the car and have

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Speaker 2: the windows rolled up so no one would see them.

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Speaker 2: And I know many have felt a shame and judgment

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Speaker 2: and it's old fashioned. Though the times have changed, the

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Speaker 2: traditions and moral judgments still remain. Like I said, we

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Speaker 2: don't talk to these people. So with that bitterness in mind,

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Speaker 2: who I will say. I think it's a partial reason

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Speaker 2: why I'm not married and I don't care about me

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Speaker 2: age because I've seen what people do in this level

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Speaker 2: of like I can judge you if they go wrong.

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Speaker 2: But right, so we're going to talk about it, and

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about it. Is I've given all

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Speaker 2: the personal accounts in a more statistical way.

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Speaker 1: First, yes, yes, okay, So when it comes to divorce,

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Speaker 1: the statistics do you vary? Although most of us have

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Speaker 1: heard that almost fifty percent of marriages end in divorce.

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to what the numbers are really

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Speaker 1: and what are the numbers when it comes to gender

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Speaker 1: and to religion, specifically to Western Christianity, that's a bit

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Speaker 1: harder to pin down too. Right. Just recently, Forbes published

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Speaker 1: an article titled Revealing Divorced Statistics in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: and we wanted to share some of the findings that

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Speaker 1: they reported. The half of the marriages ending in divorce

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Speaker 1: statistic actually only applies to first marriages, but for those

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Speaker 1: who maybe in their second or third marriage, which is

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Speaker 1: the highest horse rate around to seventy three percent, they're

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Speaker 1: more likely to get divorced. The average length of a

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Speaker 1: marriage before divorce is eight years. That's interesting. However, the

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Speaker 1: divorce rates have gone down over the years, with the

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Speaker 1: exception of a small spike during lockdown and the initial pandemic,

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Speaker 1: but so have the rates of marriage.

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Speaker 2: Right, But again, who is getting divorced? It looks like

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Speaker 2: people who have friends that are divorced are more likely

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Speaker 2: to get divorced. You're gonna get influenced. I'll be streaming

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Speaker 2: whatever for me again, I just don't get married. The

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Speaker 2: remarrying thing is a factor. More boomers are getting divorced,

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Speaker 2: with an increase of forty six percent divorce rate for

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Speaker 2: ages fifty five to sixty four, which I found interesting.

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Speaker 2: But the average age of people getting divorced is forty

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Speaker 2: six for men and forty four for women. So I'm

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Speaker 2: not gonna prime again because I'm not married. I guess

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Speaker 2: people with high school education are less are more likely

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Speaker 2: to get divorced as well. So why are they get divorced?

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Speaker 2: The number one reason is lack of commitment, followed by

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Speaker 2: infidelity and affairs, And again, the final straw is often

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Speaker 2: something specific like domestic violence, affairs, and substance abuse. But

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Speaker 2: the article also writes, quote interestingly, couples often disagree on

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Speaker 2: what the final straw was that led to the end

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Speaker 2: of their marriage. In fact, not a single couple reported

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Speaker 2: the same deciding issue as the ultimate reason for the

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Speaker 2: end of their marriage, which I think says a lot

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Speaker 2: to the communication part.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think it does as well.

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Speaker 1: One other interesting statistic before we talk about the religious portion,

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Speaker 1: women are far more likely to initiate the divorce. According

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Speaker 1: to that Forbes report, sixty nine percent of divorces are

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Speaker 1: initiated by women, and if you break it down specifically,

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Speaker 1: the report stated that seven out of ten dissolutions are

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Speaker 1: initiated by women, and this is based on heterosexual relationships.

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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of conversations recently on why women

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Speaker 1: are leaving. In a twenty twenty two BBC article titled

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Speaker 1: why women file for divorce more than men, they talk

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Speaker 1: about different factors as to why women are leaving and

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Speaker 1: here are some of the reasons. Being able to be independent.

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Speaker 1: Unlike the old traditional ways of men being breadwinners, women

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Speaker 1: are more educated and more successful in their careers and

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Speaker 1: have become more ambitious. As the article says, quote, women's

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Speaker 1: entry into the workforce enabled them to leave unhappy marriages

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Speaker 1: for the first time. They were no longer financially bound

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Speaker 1: to remain in abusive partnerships or relationships where their needs

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Speaker 1: were not being met, and women thus began to initiate

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Speaker 1: divorces at greater scale. And it goes on quote This

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Speaker 1: also helps explain why women with university level education are

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Speaker 1: so much more likely to end a marriage across cultures

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Speaker 1: and geographies. Women who are economically able to take care

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Speaker 1: of themselves, which usually is tied to higher education levels

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Speaker 1: are more likely to initiate divorce than women who are

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Speaker 1: unable to economically sustain themselves and their children, as Heidi

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Speaker 1: car a psychologist and expert on domestic violence at the

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Speaker 1: US based Education Development Center right.

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Speaker 2: And on top of that, there are also emotional factors

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Speaker 2: between the social construction of women being more of the

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Speaker 2: emotional caregivers as well as being more socially constructed to

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Speaker 2: be emotionally intelligent. Women typically have higher expectations than what

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Speaker 2: is being met emotionally by the husbands, and again we

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Speaker 2: are talking heteronormative relationships and standards. Here's a long quote

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Speaker 2: from the BBC article. For many women, the expectations they

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Speaker 2: have when they intermarriage may fail to match up to reality.

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Speaker 2: Experts say they often have a higher expectation of how

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Speaker 2: a partner will meet their emotional needs than men, which

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Speaker 2: can lead to disappointment post wedding. Glisa fort Martinez, specialists

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Speaker 2: in conflict resolutions, says because men are usually socialized to

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Speaker 2: have lower emotional intelligence than women, this can lead to

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Speaker 2: female partners feeling unsupported and doing much of the emotional

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Speaker 2: labor in the relationship, which also means women are more Finally,

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Speaker 2: attuned to problems in relationship red flags, and their tendency

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Speaker 2: to be the primary communicators and empathizers means that they

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Speaker 2: may also be the first to raise issues, perhaps ultimately

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Speaker 2: resulting in separation or divorce. Women also tend to gain

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Speaker 2: fewer emotional benefits from marriage, which could make single life

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Speaker 2: seem more appealing. While married men experience multiple perks, including

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Speaker 2: living longer and earning more money, women don't usually benefit

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Speaker 2: from their relationships in the same way. Instead, they bear

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Speaker 2: the brunt of household and child rearing labor, which can

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Speaker 2: leave working women quote overwhelmed in stress as fort Martinez.

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Speaker 2: So in another article written specifically from a diverse law firm,

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Speaker 2: the Women as Law Firm, they talk about the factor

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Speaker 2: of men not paying attention to their own mental health needs,

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Speaker 2: which often leaves the wives taking on more emotional responsibility.

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Speaker 2: So here's a quote from their article. By not taking

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Speaker 2: care of their own mental health or working on their

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Speaker 2: communication skills, women find themselves taking on more emotional responsibility. Occasionally,

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Speaker 2: they end up being the only emotional support for the

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Speaker 2: entire family without the assistance of their partner. This emotional

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Speaker 2: burden takes its toll on women. They often feel alone

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Speaker 2: and as they have no support system within their marriage,

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Speaker 2: the mental, physical, and emotional toll of that overburdening responsibility

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Speaker 2: is a major contributing factor when women are considering divorce.

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Speaker 1: Then there's also the social factor. One thing we've seen

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Speaker 1: in heterosexual relationships a lot is that men do not

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Speaker 1: have many close friends.

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Speaker 3: We've talked about that before.

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Speaker 1: It is more likely that women continue and maintain close friendships.

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Speaker 1: Another quote from that BBC article said women quote have

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Speaker 1: a better support system both to discuss any marital issues

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Speaker 1: as well as to ease the transition back into single life.

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Speaker 1: It's also possible these friendships make divorce seem like a

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Speaker 1: more plausible option. Research suggests that if a close friend

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Speaker 1: gets divorced, people's own chances of divorcing arise by seventy

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Speaker 1: five percent.

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Speaker 3: The influencing.

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Speaker 1: There you go, and one of the other reasons why

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Speaker 1: women may be initiating the Great divorce is just simply

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Speaker 1: for a resolution. The BBC article rights, filing for divorce

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Speaker 1: isn't the same as ending a marriage. While research shows

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Speaker 1: women in heterosexual marriages are more likely to initiate the breakup,

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Speaker 1: there are also women who didn't choose in their relationship

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Speaker 1: but want our need to formalize the split. Nonetheless, quote,

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Speaker 1: women tend to be more motivated than men to resolve

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Speaker 1: their marital status, says Katie Spooner, partner and head of

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Speaker 1: family law at Winkworth Sherwood, London. She says, based on

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Speaker 1: her client record, most men are happy to remain separated

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Speaker 1: unless there is a new relationship or particular imperative to

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Speaker 1: sort their finances.

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Speaker 2: There is a reason where men may be the one

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Speaker 2: to file for divorce instead of women, and that's because

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Speaker 2: of illness. One of the first things that pop up

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Speaker 2: when we research divorce in marriages has been articles on

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Speaker 2: men leaving women due to illness. In fact, when I

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Speaker 2: put in Google men divorce, it automatically auto filled with

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Speaker 2: sick wives, which made me very angry. This is even

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Speaker 2: being talked about on TikTok. I've seen this often and

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Speaker 2: it hurts me. It hurts my feelings. So what's happening?

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Speaker 2: So in a two thousand and nine Ruters article titled

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Speaker 2: men more likely than women to leave a partner with cancer,

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Speaker 2: they write women are six times more likely to end

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Speaker 2: up separated or divorced if they are diagnosed with cancer

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Speaker 2: or multiple sclerosis, then if their male partners were facing

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Speaker 2: the same illness then this is according to a US study.

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Speaker 2: The study confirmed earlier research of a divorce or separation

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Speaker 2: rate among cancer patients of eleven point six percent, similar

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Speaker 2: to the general population, but found the rate jumped to

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Speaker 2: twenty point eight percent when the women was sick versus

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Speaker 2: two point nine two percent when the man was ill.

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Speaker 1: And apparently, fourteen years later, that hasn't changed. In another

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Speaker 1: article written for today dot Com, men are more likely

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Speaker 1: to lead their wives if sickness is involved. Here's the

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Speaker 1: quote from that article. They decided to do a study

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Speaker 1: after noticing divorce appeared to occur almost exclusively when the

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Speaker 1: wife is the disease afflicted partner. The phenomenon was called

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Speaker 1: partner abandonment in Patients with serious medical illness. The results

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Speaker 1: were based on five hundred and fifteen patients at three

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Speaker 1: medical centers who had a brain tumor, cancer or multiple

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Speaker 1: sclerosis and were married at the time of diagnosis. About

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Speaker 1: half were women. When the patients were followed for four

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Speaker 1: to five years to see if their marital status change,

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Speaker 1: it turned out the woman was the affected spouse in

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Speaker 1: almost ninety percent of separations, with the female gender found

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Speaker 1: to be the strongest predicator of separation or divorce, and

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Speaker 1: in that article, the author of the study explains men

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Speaker 1: may be very well equipped to be primary providers, but

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Speaker 1: not so well equipped to be primary caregivers doctors. Mark Schamberlaine,

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Speaker 1: the study co author, told Today, I think men are

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Speaker 1: challenged in caring for someone who has disease and treatment

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Speaker 1: related symptoms, managing the stress, managing the logistics right.

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Speaker 2: And there are many articles writing about the level of

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Speaker 2: unpreparedness of men becoming caretakers and taking on any type

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Speaker 2: of household responsibility. So here's a quote from a Guardian article. Tomer,

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Speaker 2: a sociologist from the University of Alabama who studies how

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Speaker 2: gender affects couples when a partner gets sick, says, in

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Speaker 2: most couples, people understand they will need to support their

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Speaker 2: partner if they get sick. But she says men and

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Speaker 2: women interpret what caregiving looks like very differently. Men tend

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Speaker 2: to view the partner getting sick in almost a mechanical way.

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Speaker 2: They see it as a problem to be solved. They

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Speaker 2: can separate out the obvious and immediate physical tasks that

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Speaker 2: result from the illness, but other caregiving requirements are left unconsidered,

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Speaker 2: such as emotional care or housework, which I feel like

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Speaker 2: that's physical but okay. This means that a lot of

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Speaker 2: the time women continue to do that work, and when

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Speaker 2: they don't, problems.

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Speaker 1: Can and they continue. Talking about a study completed in

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Speaker 1: Germany Quote twenty eighteen, Researchers in Germany used a nationally

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Speaker 1: representative sample to show that as long as they are

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Speaker 1: still able to, women continue to do an uneven amount

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Speaker 1: of the housework while they are sick. If that was

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Speaker 1: the dynamic in the relationship before they became unwell, particularly

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Speaker 1: with more mild conditions, the expectation is that the status

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Speaker 1: quo will go on unless it gets so extreme that

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Speaker 1: the wife really can't do the work, says Tomer. The

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Speaker 1: flip side of this is that relationships tend to function

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Speaker 1: well when the woman gets sick and requires intensive care

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Speaker 1: from her partner, but in cases where caregiving is not necessitated,

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Speaker 1: men tend to downplay a woman's symptoms and classer is

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Speaker 1: largely self sufficient, expecting her to ask for help rather

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Speaker 1: than proactively giving it. Communication fails even in sickness, but

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Speaker 1: many of the reports are worse. They give examples of

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Speaker 1: women who are expected to continue with daily chores even

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Speaker 1: in pain or immediately after surgery, and if the routines

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Speaker 1: are disrupted for too long, the household falls apart, and

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Speaker 1: this includes sexual activity. Women discussed how they would take

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Speaker 1: painkillers in order to not upset their spouses when it

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Speaker 1: came to sexual expectations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty explicit. I was like, wow, okay,

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Speaker 2: I don't I hate all of this for you. Of course,

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Speaker 2: we've already talked about how sex and marriages are expected

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Speaker 2: and automated, but whatever. And on that note, we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about the statistics when it

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Speaker 2: comes to Christianity and divorce. So some of the reforces

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Speaker 2: are saying Christians are getting to divorce more than any other religion.

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Speaker 2: Is that true? That's the question, and the answer is

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Speaker 2: simple yes, But there are several factors to that statistic.

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Speaker 2: The broad term of Christianity can be misleading. According to

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Speaker 2: the Pew Research Center study, Evangelical Protestants had fourteen percent

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Speaker 2: divorce rate, while historical Black Protestants had a nineteen percent.

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Speaker 2: Mainline Protestants a twelve percent divorce percentage, and they were

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Speaker 2: among the highest of the divorce rates, which in that

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Speaker 2: same study included the Hinduism, Buddhists, and muslim and other religions.

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Speaker 2: But when you put them all together, that's a big

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Speaker 2: chunk of Protestants.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And another report showed that at least twenty five percent

434
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 1: of Christians have gone through divorce, and the numbers are

435
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: pretty studied today. Here's a quote from an older article

436
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: on divorce statistics between Christians and quote non believers. According

437
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: to the survey by the Barner Group, which is an

438
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: organization that focus on research on the intersection of faith

439
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: and culture, thirty percent of atheists and agnostics had been

440
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: married and subsequently divorced. But the Barner Group pointed out

441
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 1: that they have lower rates of marriage sixty five percent,

442
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: and a higher likelihood of cohabitation. Barnara also stated in

443
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: a two thousand and four survey that one can understand

444
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: why atheists and agnostics might have a higher rate of divorce,

445
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: since they are less likely to believe in concepts such

446
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: as sin, absolute moral truth, and judgment. Yet the survey

447
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: found that the percentage of atheists and agnostics who have

448
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: been married and divorce is thirty percent, still less than

449
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: the numbers for the born again population of thirty three percent.

450
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: So why is this happening?

451
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, we we have several reasons according to conservative Christians. Now,

452
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: everything we're saying is coming from Christian articles. Again, my

453
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: algorithm is real messed up, real messed up. But I

454
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 2: did find it interesting and I can't wait to not

455
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: be on this algorithm. Women are falling under the trap

456
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 2: of feminism. The idea of independence and being able to

457
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 2: leave without justification not cool. Also, a big common factor

458
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 2: in conservative Christian blogs is the refusal to acknowledge gender

459
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 2: as the binary aspect. So they really don't like any

460
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: of this conversation we're having today when feminism confuses the

461
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,239
Speaker 2: role of gender again, not us, not any and I

462
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 2: are saying this this is again from this article. Then

463
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 2: family and marriage roles fall apart. Here's advice from an

464
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: article from The Federalist. And I really hated that I

465
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: clicked on this quote. Successful relationships depend on men being

466
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: men and women being women. Every fiber of a woman's

467
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,239
Speaker 2: being calls out for a man with whom you can

468
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 2: feel physically and emotionally safe, and money is part of

469
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 2: that equation. Yes, women now earn their own money. And

470
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 2: that is not going to change. But what can change

471
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 2: is our attitude and approach to love. What men and

472
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: women look for in a relationship and what they need

473
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 2: from each other within that relationship is not the same.

474
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: Being malleable with gender role is great, but ignoring biology

475
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 2: is not. After all these years, women still want security

476
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 2: and men still want to provide that security. The more

477
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 2: of a relationship moves away from this reality, the more

478
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: it will struggle. The more a relationship moves toward it,

479
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: the more successful it will be, which is again ironic

480
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 2: according to the statistics we just read.

481
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 3: M also hello from nineteen fifties.

482
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 4: And yes, this article is written in twenty two and

483
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 4: in other articles giving advice to men about how to

484
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 4: restore their marriage or keep their wives, they often tell

485
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 4: men to be authoritative but with submissive cards, which is

486
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 4: not necessarily wrong.

487
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 1: Think of it as disciplining a child and trying not

488
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: to push the child away, but gently nudging them to

489
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: the answer you want them to give.

490
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 3: Does it seem condescending? Yes, I think.

491
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: Here's a snippet from one article called an Epidemic of

492
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: Christian Wives divorcing. Quote for the majority of these men,

493
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: nothing seems to work. They try being loving and affectionate,

494
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 1: just to be rejected. They try devotions and prayer together

495
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: and she has some excuse why she can't do it.

496
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: They call her out on her sins and she gets

497
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: more and more angry and bitter. Some have tried it all,

498
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: from being submissed themselves for a month to their wives

499
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: to prove it's not so hard, then to becoming a

500
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: man of the manosphere and taking leadership whether they have

501
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: a follower or not. Nothing they try seems to work,

502
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: and often the wife will confess in her less angry moments,

503
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: I know I am the problem, but I don't know

504
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: how to stop it. One would think that just saying

505
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: that would be a big breakthrough, as the awareness that

506
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: I am the problem should in a healthy mind begin

507
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: to seek solutions to unhealthy behaviors, but in many cases,

508
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: the final results are Christian wives walking away from their

509
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: marriages and epidemic numbers because they are seeking relief from

510
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: the pain that they themselves are causing. And it's not

511
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: over yet. The block keeps going, saying perhaps the root

512
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: cause is a desire for control, as the feminist lies

513
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: are now planted firmly in most of the young Christian

514
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: wives hearts. No longer do they go into a marriage

515
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: with an attitude that believes love is sacrificial giving of

516
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: oneself to another, but rather love is now a two

517
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: way street that says, I cannot love you if I

518
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: do not feel I am getting from you what I

519
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: believe I need.

520
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: I just I want to take a minute of this article.

521
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: In that same article, they never talk about why the

522
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 2: women are leaving. They just say because they refuse to

523
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: work on the marriage. Right, So what I say is

524
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: generalized to specific cases. They don't even give examples of

525
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: why the women are unhappy. This blew my mind. I

526
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: was like, why, really, women want a two way street?

527
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: Wait what that's a bad thing instead of sacrificing herself.

528
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: But you know whatever, whatnot. And by the way, the

529
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: article was a man who supposedly his wife gets the

530
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: thumbs up to this article saying yes, exactly exactly right,

531
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 2: which is what you're supposed to do with a wife, right.

532
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: Oh wow, damn feminism, damn feminism. And yet, if you're

533
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: confused about the evils of feminism, here's a quote from

534
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: thegirldefined dot com, which think we talked about their site

535
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: before at its route, feminism is built upon a foundation

536
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: completely devoid of God. The feminist movement is woven with

537
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: the same sin Satan committed in the beginning, a rebellious

538
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: heart that pridefully says, I don't need you God, thanks,

539
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: but I'll do it things my way. I'm so good

540
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: at acting. And they continue saying. The average American will

541
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: agree that most feminists strongly stand for the following a

542
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: woman's right to abort murder her unborn baby, lesbianism, and

543
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: the right for women to marry women, complete liberation from

544
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: sexual boundaries and morals, freedom from traditional gender roles in marriage,

545
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: rejection of God as the ultimate authority in life. You know,

546
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: outside of the wording and the fairmong greed, they're not

547
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: completely wrong. I do feel like a woman should be

548
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: able to wear marry a woman if they're in love.

549
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: I do feel like, you know, liberating from sexual boundaries

550
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: of saying that we have to be here for men's

551
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: pleasure is not a bad thing. And yeah, traditional gender

552
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 2: roles suck and that's why people are getting divorced. But okay, whatever, whatever, Sure, sure,

553
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: but I will say for that last bit, I know

554
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: a lot of Christian feminists who would disagree with this completely.

555
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: But again, there is binary thinking when it comes to

556
00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: this specific line of don't ever leave people divorces.

557
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: Right and according to another blog titled why feminism wants

558
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: to dismantle the family quote, like many isms before it, communism, religions, cults,

559
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: feminism seeks to dismantle the traditional family unit for its

560
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: own gain.

561
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 3: Why to the ism.

562
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: Old loyalties are like bad habits, interfering with an individual's

563
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: ability to pledge unwaiving allegiance. Isms want control, but families

564
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: tend to put family members and their needs before the

565
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: demands of the ism, reducing the ISM's power and influence

566
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: and therefore undermining its control. M I love how they

567
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: put religions in there.

568
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: I don't like occultism. Does that work? I'm a little

569
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: too literal, I think. Okay, And if y'all want to

570
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: read this glorious article yourself, let us know. But the

571
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: author of this blog cites several anti feminist articles and books,

572
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: including from the Flip Side of Feminism, where they use

573
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: this quote from it quote. Feminists realize all too well

574
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: that they can never achieve a level playing field in

575
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: the marketplace as long as their male competitors have the

576
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: advantage of homemaker wives. Women on the left know that

577
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 2: in order to get ahead more easily, they must deprive

578
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: men of their advantage in having stay at home. Wise,

579
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: the desire to eliminate the full time homemaker has been

580
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: a feminist's goal all along. The need for a second

581
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: income was never the goal, which I find hilarious. They

582
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: give a lot of credit who just want to be

583
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: able to sustain just in case. Like at the at

584
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: the beginning, it was more of like, oh, I don't

585
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: want to be abused and treated as a servant anymore

586
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: to their under my marriage, and this is the goal

587
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: to the entire time, Like oh, okay to a playbook

588
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: here I know.

589
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: The author from the same blog expands on this idea,

590
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: saying quote, so feminism has made some progress over the

591
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: last several decades. If you look at the poorest and

592
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: least socially mobile areas in America, you will notice one

593
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: variable consistently lacking fathers, more specifically, mothers who are married

594
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: to the father of their children. Over the last few decades,

595
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: the birth rate for unmarried women in the US has

596
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: risen steadily from eighteen percent in nineteen eighty to forty

597
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: one percent and twenty twelve. Alarmingly, the majority of moms

598
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: believe that absent or uninvolved dads can easily be replaced

599
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: themselves or another man, despite the evidence that stable marriages

600
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: lead to happy, healthy and motivated kids, which leads to

601
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 1: stronger communities, more opportunities, and greater equality.

602
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: I find it again quite funny that whole last line

603
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: is obviously an opinion.

604
00:33:50,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, right, also very kind of funnily worded one.

605
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, sure, we've definitely heard that argument before. The

606
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: blog talks more about the perils of feminism in regards

607
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: to motherhood, politics, and marriage, but I think we got

608
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 1: we got that covered for now. An interesting theory she brings,

609
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: and so many other articles bring, is the idea that

610
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: things like divorce and child support are too easy to

611
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: access and that encourages more women to leave their husbands right.

612
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: Recently, the topic of no fault divorce has been trending.

613
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: Right wing conservative Stephen Crowder has been lamenting, and I

614
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 2: mean just whining, his current marital status, which is now

615
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 2: no longer a thing. He told his audience about his

616
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: recent divorce, quote, No, this was not my choice, My

617
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 2: then wife decided that she didn't want to be married anymore,

618
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: and in the state of Texas that is completely permitted.

619
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: This was, by the way, an accusation, not just a statement.

620
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 2: Here's what a no fault divorce is. It allows a

621
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 2: couple to divorce without blame or fault. It is often

622
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: the simplest path and divorce available in a state, and

623
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 2: it exists in all fifty and DC according to legal

624
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: zoom dot com. And it explains further. No fault divorce

625
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 2: allows one spouse to file for divorce without blaming the

626
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: other or indicating that it was either spouse's fault. The

627
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: terminology differs with each state's no fault divorce laws, but

628
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: to obtain a no fault divorce, the spouse who files

629
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: simply needs to state that there has been irreconcilable differences

630
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: or incompatibility. And in some states, living apart for a

631
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 2: specific period of time can be the reason for a

632
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 2: no fault divorce. And I've heard that before just being

633
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: separated is enough. And conservatives are not a fan and

634
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: are wanting to end no fault divorce. And when we

635
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 2: say conservatives, I'm talking about political figureheads. In a recent

636
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone magazine article, They write, but Republicans across the

637
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: country are now reconsidering no fault divorce. There isn't a

638
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: huge mystery behind the campaign, like the crusades against abortion

639
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: and contraception. Making it more difficult to leave an unhappy

640
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 2: marriage is about control. Crowder's home state could be the

641
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,959
Speaker 2: first to eliminate it if the Texas GOP is his way.

642
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: Last year, the Republican Party of Texas added language to

643
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: its platform calling for an end to no fault divorce.

644
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: In it, they said, we are the legislators to rescind

645
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: unilateral no fault divorce laws, to support covenant marriage, and

646
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: to pass legislation extending the period of time in which

647
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: a divorce may occur to six months after the date

648
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 2: of filing for divorce. And this is what we were

649
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: talking about, how to file for divorces because it does

650
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 2: a lot of stakes. Do have this type of stipulation. Yeah,

651
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: but it's interest in the wording covenant marriage.

652
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, very interesting, and of course other conservative states are

653
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: following suit. Here's another quote from that article. It's not

654
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: just Texas. A similar proposals presently being workshopped by the

655
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 1: Republican Party of Louisiana. The Nebraska GOP has affirmed its

656
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: beliefs that no fault divorce should only be accessible to

657
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 1: couples without children. At the Republican National Convention in twenty sixteen,

658
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: the last time the party platform was overhauled, delegates considered

659
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: adding language declaring quote children are made to be by

660
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: both natural parents united in marriage. Legal structures such as

661
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 1: no fault divorce, which divides families and in powers of state,

662
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: should be replaced by a fault based divorced It's unclear

663
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: whether the party's twice divorced nominee for president, Wade in

664
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: on the debate at that time.

665
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: Right, I feel like this is going to hurt a

666
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: lot of politicians, and this is going to hurt a

667
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: lot of conservatives. Again, as we heard that the rates

668
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: of divorce and Christianity is higher, it makes you question.

669
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 2: And also I feel like less people are gonna get

670
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 2: married and have children, which is the opposite of what

671
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 2: Christian nationalists want. But you know, whatever, right, right.

672
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: Right, right, And yes, no surprise. Just as they said

673
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: in the article, this is a large conversation on control

674
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: and loss of autonomy. In an older article about no

675
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: fault divorce, They write that things like no fault divorce

676
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: is an attacked the sanctity of marriage, even more so

677
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 1: than gay marriage, and is another strategy by feminists. Ah

678
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: here's a couple of quotes from this two thousand and

679
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: five article. The most forthright marriage advocates recognize that, as

680
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: Michael mccannis of Marriage Savers' Rights, divorce is far more

681
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: grievous blow to marriage than today's challenge by gaze. Predictably,

682
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: this fact has been seized upon by advocates of same

683
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: sex marriage. The weakening of marriage has been heterosexuals doing,

684
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: not gays, for it is their infidelity, divorce rates, and

685
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: single parent families that have wrought social damage, opines the Economist.

686
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: This distinction ignores the fact that the two problems are

687
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: closely connected. Gay marriage would probably not be an issue

688
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: in the first place if marriage had not already been

689
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: weakened by divorce. Interesting, and according to the same article,

690
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 1: divorce is a part of the feminist strategy. They write

691
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: today feminist operatives employ similar strategies to encourage divorce worldwide,

692
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: often inserting it unnoticed and unopposed into programs for human

693
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: rights and unilateral Divorce is now one of the first

694
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: measures implemented by leftist governments.

695
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 2: In two thousand and five, wasn't it Bush?

696
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: Yeah?

697
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: I think yeah, anyway, yeah yeah, so again feminist operatives.

698
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's usastly badass.

699
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. And if feminism is a strategic

700
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: plant to destroy families, then obviously Christian conservatives must combat

701
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: the way they know how through fear and jame. For example,

702
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 2: what happens when a woman in unhappy marriage is desperate

703
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 2: for the next steps. Well, let's look at some blogs

704
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: and articles for advice. I'm gonna read this. One blog

705
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 2: offers fourteen characteristics of a godly wife that will save

706
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 2: your marriage. So we're going to go down this list. Obviously,

707
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: it's reading the Bible, being persistent in prayer, giving godly

708
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: wifely love, forgiving, being selfless, I think in a godly manner,

709
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 2: use words of affirmation and appreciation and admiration, being a leader,

710
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: but with the husband, of course, being virtuous by understanding men.

711
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: And they actually say virtuous by understanding men. And to

712
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 2: elaborate on that, they say, quote, we knew as a

713
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: godly wife, take the time to learn how men understand things.

714
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 2: You take a huge step in saving your marriage. You're welcome,

715
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: respect your husband, having a biblical priorities, and being a

716
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: virtuous woman in the community. And I don't think I've

717
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: mentioned the whole Proverbs thirty one woman, which is an

718
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 2: old testament. If you go, it used to be a

719
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: thing where you would find your birth date, go to

720
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 2: that verse and that's supposed to describe you. Oh it's terrifying, okay, anyway,

721
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: but that's a solution. Another offers a simple solution. This

722
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: article titled how to be Happy in an Unhappy Marriage

723
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,720
Speaker 2: suggests changing your focus and expectations. And it's not completely wrong,

724
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: as the article says, marriage isn't a Hollywood or Harlequin

725
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: romance and it's something that is about compromise at work.

726
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: But it suggests, like the article above, that marriage is

727
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 2: for God and that's the focus. It doesn't really offer

728
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: much guidance outside of that. It literally had like two

729
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: paragraphs and yeah, again, it's similar to what we just saw, aka, pray,

730
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: read the Bible, follow the rules of the Bible, and

731
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: your marriage will be happy. And as a side note,

732
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,439
Speaker 2: we also found an interesting conversation about parity culture once

733
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 2: again and the effects of marrying young for the sake

734
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 2: of sexual purity. Again, I have so many friends and

735
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 2: couples who fall under this line of thinking, we want

736
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 2: to have sex, but we want to save ourselves our marriage,

737
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: So let's get married. Nineteen twenty twenty one. And here's

738
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: a quote from the Cedarville interpreter. I believe Cedarville's a

739
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 2: school quote. A practical issue with sexual abstinence until marriage

740
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 2: is that Christians are driven to marry young in order

741
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 2: to be able to have sex without any guilt. Virginity

742
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: is held as a pinnacle of purity and pride, which,

743
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 2: if nothing else, raises its own unnecessary pest that all

744
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: too often borders on sexual idolatry. Getting married too young

745
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: for the wrong reasons, and having unreasonable expectations of how

746
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: amazing being married will be can be in a catalyst

747
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 2: for unhappy marriages and divorce. This rush to get married

748
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: also leaves fewer opportunities to find major red flags that

749
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: should suggest ending a relationship before marriage. Yeah, and again,

750
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 2: being a part of the Christian culture in college and

751
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: high school, it really hits the nail on the head.

752
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 2: I the literal reason they got married is we love

753
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: each other enough. We're about to send so let's go

754
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: ahead and go and we'll grow old together and God

755
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 2: will handle everything else. And then they end up in

756
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: a horrible divorce.

757
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I saw it too.

758
00:42:44,360 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so what happens when the force does happen

759
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: and what happens to women? Like I mentioned before, a

760
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: lot of people would flee from the judgment of old

761
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: fashioned ideas or what I would deemed as old fashioned.

762
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: But sometimes people would come back with the hope that

763
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: enough time had passed for people to either forget or

764
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 2: at least not care as much. But for the most parts,

765
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone ever really felt comfortable coming back

766
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 2: to the original churches or felt that they were still

767
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: a part of that community.

768
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: Yes, and with all the turn to God articles urging

769
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: people to yes, just turn to God, pray and work

770
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: it out, there are those who decided to do what

771
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: was best for them. But something interesting we found is

772
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: that they all still felt that the church and church

773
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: leadership had a lot of say in that decision. In

774
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: one woman's words, as she had gone to the church

775
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: to help her volatile marriage, one key to why she

776
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: left was because her church leadership released her to legally separate.

777
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: Here's a quote from her blog. I went to church

778
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: leadership begging for help as my last resort. We were

779
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: referred to a new couple's counselor and a mentor couple.

780
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: We walked this road with our elder and campus pastor.

781
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: We were each given a lengthy list of things to

782
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: do to move towards reconciliation. My plea for a temporary

783
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: separation was backed up as they felt things were just

784
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: too volatile for us to remain under one roof while

785
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 1: trying to put things back together. But when assessed at

786
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: the end, But when assessed at the end of about

787
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: fifteen months, the unanimous decision was that I had done

788
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: all I had been asked to do and my husband

789
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: had not. They told me I was released from pursuing

790
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 1: a reconciliation and that the ball was one hundred percent

791
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: in my husband's court to save our marriage. They then

792
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: released me to legal separation, which I pursued. I must

793
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: say here that had my church leadership not released me

794
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: to legally separate, I have absolutely no idea where I

795
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: would be today. If I had to guess, though, I

796
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: believe I'd still be married and miserable, and nowhere near

797
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: on the road to emotional health. I believe I would

798
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: not have wanted to go against the wishes and guidance

799
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: of my church leadership because of my high respect for

800
00:44:58,719 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: their wisdom and love.

801
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 3: Forget God. I am not staying forever because they did

802
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 3: release me, so I moved forward.

803
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

804
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 2: Of course we don't know the specifics of this marriage,

805
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 2: but reading some of her experiences, I think it's safe

806
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,479
Speaker 2: to say if something is too volatile, there's a level

807
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: of violence that's been present, and to me that's scary,

808
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: especially with her acknowledgment that if the church had not

809
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: given her permission, she would have remained in that volatile relationship.

810
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: So what does that teach us? And in my experience,

811
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: separating would never be permitted with the old church that

812
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 2: I was a part of, so that leaves the victim

813
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 2: continuing to be a victim. Yeah, and in my opinion,

814
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: this article again was a plea for Christians to understand

815
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 2: her view and her desperation to leave her union, which

816
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 2: is really depressing. I hate that still a romantic notion

817
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: today because you know, marriage is completely different from what

818
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: it was a thousand years ago, on a hundred years ago.

819
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 2: Apparently still different when it comes to k dramas and

820
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 2: its acquisitions can be weaponized. And that's what I feel

821
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 2: like this has become. These articles are talking about.

822
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I actually, uh, this is like much less serious.

823
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: But I want to come back and talk about that

824
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: because I may or may not have watched the Super

825
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 1: Mario Brothers movie lest Wait.

826
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 2: Princess Speech.

827
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, because he's like essentially trying to trap her

828
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 1: to marriage and it's so like sad.

829
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 2: Song.

830
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but then he like threatens her friends. Anyway,

831
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: I want to come back and talk about it. Yes,

832
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: back to the more serious stuff.

833
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 4: Though.

834
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: In many of these articles, writers and authors played different

835
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: cases on why divorce is dangerous to the Christian community,

836
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: but that ostracizing them is just as dangerous and decreasing

837
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: the numbers in the Christian community. However, studies show that

838
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: many of the divorce Christians are still active in their

839
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: faith even after going through such a distressing experience, though

840
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: that may change as more people are walking away from

841
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: their religious background. The research might shift. But with the

842
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: Christian community, there is a battle between those who are

843
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 1: blaming leftists for the acceptance of divorce in their people

844
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: and those who are pleading for the church to handle

845
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: the issue of divorce with more grace and acceptance.

846
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: Right because we were coming down to how how do

847
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 2: the churches respond? I got more articles on again telling

848
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 2: women it's okay, this is how all went through it

849
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: than anything else, and then talking about how part of

850
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 2: the problem and part of the reason divorce is happening.

851
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: And then they're not coming back to the church's because

852
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: of the way they keep pushing against people who are

853
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 2: getting divorced. So not a lot of resolution, not a

854
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: lot of solutions. It's quite fascinating. It's just more of

855
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: a debate about why it's happening and who to blame, right.

856
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: Right, right, right again. So much we could talk about here,

857
00:47:55,000 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: so much to come. Yes, yes, well listeners. If you

858
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: have any thoughts about this, please please let us know.

859
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: You can write to us. You can email us at

860
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find

861
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram

862
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,919
Speaker 1: and TikTok at Stuff I've Never Told You. We also

863
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 1: have a book you can pre order. It's at stuff

864
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: you Should Read Books dot com. Thanks as always to

865
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our

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Speaker 1: contributor Joey, Thank you yes, and thanks to you for

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Speaker 1: listening stuff I Never told you, the production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcast from my heart Radio, you can check

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Speaker 1: out the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen

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Speaker 1: to your favorite shows,