WEBVTT - Fear & Intuition w/ Gavin de Becker 0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:04.160 Welcome to go Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:08.360 Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Rolling on the full. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:10.319 Loafing is a thing I can I've seen you know, 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:12.760 We've all seen people do it. I've done it kidding. 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:16.599 For me now, the work is to want what I have, 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:19.959 even kind of shinny stuff. You know, that's my work. 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:22.160 It's it's imperfect. So let me ask you a question 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:26.800 about actors because you are Yeah, me too. We are 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:29.200 old funny duddies. We go to sleep at ten, we 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.720 wake up at six, but we go to bed at eight, 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.720 So there are more funny duddies than you. You are 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:43.199 the funny duddiest. Yes, welcome to go ask Allie. I'm 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.760 Alli Wentworth. I don't know about you, but I feel 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.360 like we're all immersed in a very fear based culture. 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:55.560 I'm scared of everything from global warming to nuclear war 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.960 to the things I'm streaming on television which all see 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:04.400 to be true crime. I think people read little things 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:08.200 in magazines and then you somehow put them in a 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:10.920 scenario within your own life and just scare the ship 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.720 out of yourself. So what is our relationship with fear? 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.399 What does it mean? How do we reduce it, how 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.120 do we understand it? How do we intuite it? Well? 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:26.520 My guest today is the genius of all these things. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.360 Gavin de Becker is a leading expert on the prediction 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:34.039 and management of violence. Gavin's work has earned him three 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.520 presidential appointments and a position on a Congressional committee. He 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.440 was twice appointed to the President's Advisory Board at the 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.679 U S Department of Justice. He's also a senior fellow 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.080 at u c l A School of Public Policy and 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.840 Social Research. Gavin is a New York Times bestselling author 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.440 of The Gift of Fear, which I encourage everybody to read. 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.840 His books about violence and safety are now published in 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.440 eighteen languages and have been profiled in Time and Is Week, 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.040 featured on Oprah Winfrey Sixty Minutes, and many many others. 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.480 Please note that this episode contained some conversations about violence 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.280 that some people may find disturbing. If you prefer to 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.320 avoid this content, the topics and time codes are in 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:20.680 the show notes. Gavin de Beecker, I have never been 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.560 so scared in my life. And this is complete truth 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.600 and honesty. And I think I can speak for my husband, 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:32.240 George and most of my friends, Because, as you've talked 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.880 about in your book and in lectures and stuff, you know, 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:40.200 this isn't a These aren't l A freeway shootings. It's 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:44.480 not some serial killer. I feel like the whole world 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:48.520 is on fire, and I'm afraid of of our politicians 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:53.240 being killed, of nuclear war, of global warming, of domestic 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:57.560 and international terrorism. And you must hear this a lot. 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:02.000 But how do I call my nerves? How do I 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:06.720 live my life without constantly not being able to sleep 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:10.600 because of anxiety and being in perpetual fear of so 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.200 many things? I love the question because I can fix 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.720 that in just a few seconds. Excellent with a pill. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.400 Now it actually takes a lot of pills, I'm sure. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.600 So you know, there is a thing that that governments 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:31.880 tend to spray at people, which are worst case scenarios. 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.440 Worst case scenarios. And the worst case scenario is not 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:41.320 a prediction. It's not a uh an organized thought process. 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.760 It is a creative process where people think, as they 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.160 have to in government, what would be the worst thing 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.400 that could happen with a virus, for example, this virus, 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.600 what's the worst thing that could happen? Now, rarely do 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.040 they say, here's the best thing that could happen, right, 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.160 it could peter out, it could the variance could be 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.680 better instead of worse, that kind of thing. So we 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:01.920 see a lot of worst case scenarios, and I think 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.280 it's valuable for people to know that the words scenario, 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.680 of course, comes from scene. It is a creative exercise. 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:11.760 And when we do that in our minds, you could say, 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.400 for example, Captain, what's the worst case scenario on the 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:19.839 flight fiery crash. That's the worst case scenario. Officer, what's 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:23.600 the worst case scenario? Homicide? Doctor, what's the worst case scenario? 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.760 Sudden death? But we don't live our lives that way, 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.719 asking what are the worst case scenarios? Rather we ideally 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.880 live our lives asking what are the likely events. So 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.960 at home, on your refrigerator, you might have a list 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.240 of phone numbers. You've got Dr Kellerman, you've got the pediatrician, 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.039 you've got so and so, But you don't have the 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:47.840 Nuclear Emergency Search Team, which is the organization that tracks 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:52.839 down radioactive material that might be used by terrorists, for example, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.479 and they've got a bunch of helicopters, etcetera. But that's 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:59.760 not on your refrigerator because it's actually not likely. And 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.640 so what I encourage people to do is look at 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:06.279 the likely events in their lives as opposed to the 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.680 worst case scenario events. And this is the opposite of 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.560 what government does, and it's the opposite of what media does. 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.640 News media, right, news media. It's only news because it 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.800 is something that isn't likely in your life. You know 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.440 what is it that makes news? It is the unusual. 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.320 It is specifically that which is not typically happening. If 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.840 we were to be honest with the public and to 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.320 shout at them about what's alarming, let's say the public 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:39.080 health institutions of America, CDC, f d A, etcetera. What 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.040 would they shout at us, If they were being accurate 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.080 to reality, they would say, Um, accidents in the home 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.719 a major killer. Millions of you will suffer these this week, 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:53.159 and three thousand of you will die. That's exactly true, 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.560 accidents in the home. However, because we know that accidents 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.800 in the home are slightly under our control, because we 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.520 know that they are not new, we tend to be 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.600 less afraid of them than of any of the things 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.080 you mentioned. Uh, the newest virus you know at the moment, 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:15.960 for example, while while COVID is a current variant that 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.479 is not particularly serious for the overwhelming majority of people, 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.560 people your age and even my age, I'm sixty eight. Uh. 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.719 The average age of death from the very beginning back 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.680 in two thousand twenty was one. In Canada. This will 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:34.280 be an interesting fact. In Canada, sevent of all the 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.880 people whose deaths were attributed to COVID they lived in 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:42.039 nursing homes. They were nursing home residents. So right away 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:45.279 you could say, if I'm not a nursing home resident, um, 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:49.440 I have a massively greater chance of surviving this virus 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:51.440 than if I am a nursing home resident. And what 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:55.839 kills nursing home residents, by the way, everything they're they're 0:06:56.240 --> 0:07:00.560 generally to die. Right in Los Angeles County, the average 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.280 term of residency in a nursing home is less than 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.839 six months. So when you say you've got a lot 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.280 of deaths and you attribute them to COVID, for example, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.080 and the majority of them are in nursing homes, you 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.840 basically can begin to and this is my answer to 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:22.000 your question, exclude yourself from the likely candidates for that outcome. 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.640 There are two forms of fear anxiety isn't even on 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:28.679 the list. By the way, anxiety is not a fear. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.440 Anxiety and worry are a different thing, different part of 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:33.240 the brain, different part of the heart. But there are 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.640 two forms of fear. One that's enormously valuable, and that 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:41.000 is true fear. True fear is a signal in the 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.200 presence of danger. That means I see it, I hear it, 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.080 I feel it, I taste it, I perceive it. It's 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.760 a signal in the presence of danger lying right there, 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:53.440 snake right there. I need to know that information. Unwarranted 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:57.080 fear is not based on your senses. It is always 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.920 based on your imagination or your memory. So I share 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.880 this example with you. You're at the airport, you're boarding 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.240 a plane, and you think, don't get on that plane. 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:09.240 That I don't I don't feel good about that flight. 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:10.360 I don't want to do it. I don't want to 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.880 do it. So you can you can ask yourself what 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.800 is the cause of that fear. Is it, uh, something 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.720 you saw on the news about an airplane crash in 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.720 Brazil three months ago, in which case it's in your 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:26.840 imagination or your memory, or is it because you just 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.720 saw the two pilots stumbling out of the bar and 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.040 wobbling their way onto the aircraft. That would be in 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.840 your environment. That would be something you sense, and that 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:38.240 would be true fear. So the difference between true fear 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.800 and unwarranted fear is the answer to your question, which 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.520 is could it happened that we would have nuclear war? 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.880 For example? Could it happen? Is never the question to 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.880 ask could it happen? We always know the answer. I 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.720 can give you the answer for every good question right now. Yes, 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.760 yes you can have heart failure right now, Yes you 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.760 could it, absolutely. But the question we all ask in 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:07.200 our lives is what's most likely? What's most likely to happen. 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.440 I'm gonna give you one last example in the longest 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:13.440 answer in podcast history, I don't think so oh oh, 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.960 you must have had somebody even more longer. I think 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.200 my third question is going to have a longer answer, 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.000 But go ahead. I'm gonna get ready, I'll have a 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.480 I'll have a brief break between now and then. Um, 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:28.120 the in your home, in anybody's home, any viewer or 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:32.960 listener of the podcast. Uh. We know that helicopters could 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.560 land on the roof with intruders who could core through 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.640 the ceiling and lower themselves with ropes into our apartment 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.960 or home. That could happen, but we've made the decision 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.120 that a more likely area of entry is the front 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.040 door or the front window, so we put locks on 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.080 the front door and the front window. My point there 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.480 is that could is simply always the wrong question when 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.800 it comes to safety, because we have to be able 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:04.280 to to act every day and and face life, and 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:13.839 life itself is a sexually transmitted, always fatal condition. Everybody dies, 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.480 and the question we have to ask ourselves is not 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.520 how shall we die, but how shall we live? And 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.160 that's the choice. And so we do have to set 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.760 aside risks. To fly to the moon. As an astronaut, 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.720 I have to set aside the risk of getting on 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.880 top of a giant uh, you know, a bag of 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.240 fuel and lighting the match, which is basically what a 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.440 rocket is. To build that bridge, I have to set 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.520 aside the risk of crossing that big expanse of water 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.400 and the bridge that you drive over, often yourself. Brooklyn 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.840 Bridge and others. People died building those bridges, all of them, 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:52.200 and so it they had to set aside risks and 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.720 and take risks and and and still act you know, 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.040 as a parent, we have to you know, we're walking 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.600 around almost like our hearts are outside our bodies. These 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.960 these children we care about so much, and yet we 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.760 have to say, Okay, you can go, you can go 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:11.080 on that thing, you're old enough to cross that street, 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.000 you can ride that bicycle. We know, of course all 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.160 variety of injury can come to them, as it can 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.240 come to us, but we we act with courage and 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:25.200 almost done. Courage is not the absence of fear. Courage 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.199 is acting in the face of fear. I know something, 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:32.280 I'm doing a podcast. I could make a terrible mistake 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.600 and be canceled for something I say. But I'm acting anyway, 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.000 and I'm not unafraid of the mistakes I might make 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:40.920 or you might make her who knows what may happen. 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.880 But I'm willing to act in the face of those fears. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.760 That's courage, and that I would say that I do 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.360 that with my children. I don't want my daughter to 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.200 go out at ten o'clock at night to a party downtown. 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.040 But if I don't let her go and she doesn't 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.960 go out and experience the world, I'll stimately I'm not 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:05.640 helping her, even though I saw the the movie Abducted 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.200 or whatever it was called. I mean, I feel like 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.560 everything on streaming right now starts with a dead white girl. 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:16.640 So you know, my my fears are always with my daughters. 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.080 Oh my god, something's going to happen. So but I 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.360 try to override that. Um. I do want to talk 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:26.280 about the media with you, because you do. You've talked 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.199 a lot in your book, particularly about using fear to 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.439 get people to watch. And I feel like it's everywhere 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.640 everywhere I look. When I try to escape and watch 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:39.520 something on TV, it it makes me scared. And I 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.720 don't know, should we turn off the news? Should we 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:49.880 only watch Seinfeld? Um? How do we find a constructive 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:54.000 balance between everything that is we're inundated by on a 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.360 day to day basis with the media. All right, So 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.720 a couple of things. One is that I do believe 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:03.240 that the news media, and particularly television and particularly local news, 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:07.640 is very bad for people when it comes to getting information. 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:12.040 I encourage people to choose their avenue for going and 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.040 getting the information. Meaning the Internet is so remarkable, with 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.560 all its failings. It's so remarkable that I could say, oh, 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:21.000 I'm a little interested today in the homicide rate in Sweden. 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:23.680 I can go find that information, but if I wait 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.200 for the local news to scream it at me and 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.600 spray it at me, it will be presented in the 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.920 most alarming way possible. Years ago, I used to joke that, uh, 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.480 the Channel two News ought to say, welcome to the 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.760 Channel two News. We're surprised you made it through another day, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.520 and here's what happened to those that didn't, and then 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:43.760 they would give you the death litany all the ways 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.280 in which people died. And so you know, years ago 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.800 there was a big earthquake in l A. And after 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.640 the earthquake there was all kinds of news media reports, 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:55.560 was this the big one? What about if the big 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.160 one comes? And one of my favorites was on CBS 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:01.480 uh k n x T I think was the CBS 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.560 affiliate in Los Angeles, and it said what would have 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.280 happened if the earthquake had also caused a tsunami? And 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:13.240 they had Los Angeles graphics showing waves going over forty 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.040 story buildings in downtown l A. And my first thought was, 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.400 if there had been a tsunami, we wouldn't have to 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:20.880 pick up all this glass that we were sweeping around 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.280 our House. That was the funny part. The not funny 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.200 part was that they did a graphic and they showed 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.760 you what Los Angeles would be like if if if, if, 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.520 if could could could could, And so that is bad 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.760 for us. That very element is bad for us. And 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.640 I think one thing that's going on now that is 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:42.520 new and particularly destructive, and we see it probably most 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:46.840 of all with public health issues is that the government 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.840 and the news media are aligned. Now, you could say 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.240 how nice, but of course the history of the value 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.480 of the news media was to ask tough questions of 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.640 an Anthony Fauci or a doctor more La, the CEO 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:06.760 of Viser. Whenever prior to this time did the news 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:11.400 media say, oh, okay, okay, great viser, Sure we like it, Yeah, 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.000 that's a good enough for us. There'd be questions. There'd 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:15.600 be a lot of questions, and there'd be a lot 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.840 of press conferences, and there'd be people refusing to attend 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.000 press conferences and people reporting on that. And there is 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:27.840 something about public health and pharma that somehow takes the 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:32.160 spine and the legs out of the news media. And 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:36.280 that's something might include the fact that between seventy and 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.280 of cable news channels are sponsored by Visor and other 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:46.600 pharma companies. That's a problem. Uh. And so it's why 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.200 is it a problem? Because it does incline you to 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:53.120 not want to begin your telecast today with all the 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.800 failings in a clinical trial if you feel there wordy 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.360 for example. And so what we're seeing is, I is 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.600 there more fear because at the current moment we don't 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.480 have an advocate in the news media or in the 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.640 government balancing the only thing we get. So, for example, 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.800 politicians starting with Trump going through Biden um talk about 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.560 the big story of our lives, which is this pandemic 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.360 probably the biggest event in world history. And I don't 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:27.600 mean because of COVID, I mean because of government reaction lockdowns. 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.400 When you have billions of people affected in terms of 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.080 their day to day lives, that's a big deal. So 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.680 that issue that I'm that I'm zeroing in on, which 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.720 is that normally you had government saying here's the new 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:44.680 thing to be afraid of, and I a politician, I'm 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.040 going to fix this for you, and you've got to 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:50.440 be aware of it. Blah blah blah. Historically, governments throughout 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:54.880 human history have used fear to control populations, it's either 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.560 fear of the other, the bad guys in the next village, 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:02.320 or it's fear of internal uh risks like terrorism. But 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.720 whatever it is, that's what governments do. They use fear 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.720 to control conduct and behavior. So, if you imagine, to 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.840 put it in very simple terms, the king and the queen, 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.280 they're looking over the castle wall, and there's always a 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:17.840 castle wall. They're not walking around with everybody else for 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.439 good reason. And they look over and they see the 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:25.439 population is fighting with each other, and that is good news. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.359 They high five each other, because the only bad news 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.040 for the king and the queen is when everybody feels 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.440 the same way. That's when you get real change. That's 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.680 when you get Tunisia or Egypt or the Arab sprint. 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:40.560 And so at the current moment, the division that we see, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.800 and it is profound. It is civil war profound. The 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:48.680 division that we see. That division is encouraged by those 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:52.120 in power. It is not discouraged. And I say those 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.600 in power doesn't mean just an administration. I mean a government. 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:58.879 Administrations come and go, government stays. And so when you 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:02.320 have government doing what governments do they never haven't, which 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.919 is used fear to control populations. And to and to 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:09.080 influence events. And you also have the news media doing it, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.000 which they always have, but they were a check in 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:16.280 balance prior to this moment. The challenge there is that 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.320 at the moment we are being hit with fear from 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.399 government and media and they're not in conflict, they are aligned. 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.520 COVID is the worst thing in world history. It ain't 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.919 not even close. Uh lockdowns are good, they ain't not 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.480 even close. So anyway, my, my, my, My ending to 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:40.400 this answer is that fear is worse today for everyone 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.280 than it was two and a half years ago. In fact, 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.600 I would add sounds like a politician, but everything is 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:48.520 worse than it was two and a half years ago. 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.040 And so you don't you don't see the King and 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:56.920 Queen looking down and seeing this polarized political parties um 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.600 as a good thing? Now do you know? It's it's 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.520 like you said, there's civil unrest. Do you think that's 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:06.760 a good thing or a bad thing? Well? I think 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.160 it's a bad thing, But I assure you politicians think 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.480 it's a good thing. Uh, leaders and and people in 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.640 the White House that comes and goes. Of course, I'm 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:16.960 sixty eight, so you get a fair number of people 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:18.960 coming and going in the White House, and it's and 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.400 you see that it's not all about them people in power, 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:27.879 like division among the population period that includes the news media, 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.639 who would have very little to report. CNN would have 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.399 even less viewership than it has now. Fox would have 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.800 even less viewership than it has now if they didn't 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:41.360 have the the stridency of their disagreements. Uh. And the 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.800 and the division. The division is good for business. It 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:50.240 is extremely bad for the citizens. However, extremely bad because 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.879 we are social animals. And yet what's happened in the 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:55.720 last two and a half years that, in my view, 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.880 must never happen again, is the ability for direct communication 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.360 from power to the individual news media or direct communication 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:08.480 from controlled power social media to the individual, and not 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:12.280 a whole lot of communication among each other. So all 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.840 we're left with is our controversies. Whereas when we're allowed 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:22.320 to be together, concert, beach, shopping, uh event, we are 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:26.879 at our best. So that's their thing, that's okay, But 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:30.160 you don't give them the central position in our lives, 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:33.800 top of the news, top of the White House all day, 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.320 twenty four hours. When you do that for any one topic, 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.399 we suffer. It could be a war, it could be crime. 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:41.880 Anything that you make one topic. That's not what life 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:46.000 is like. There's a lot more to come after the 0:20:46.040 --> 0:21:01.119 short break and we're back. I read your book a 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.520 while ago, but I remember thinking, yes, I'm somebody that 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.800 sees a serial rapist on the news and I'm convinced 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.960 he's out right outside my door, when in fact it's 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:17.560 a guy in you know, northern California who's three thousand 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:21.000 miles away from me. But yet I kind of and 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:22.440 I think a lot of people do this. You make 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:26.679 it about you, You put yourself in that scenario, in 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.919 that creative, you know, image that you have. UM. But 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.680 I want to talk about spousal homicide because you say 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:39.720 you can actually predict the violence that is imminent. Yeah, 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:42.400 pre incident indicators. But I do just want to say 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.080 quickly because you said, I say it's it's predictable. Yes, 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.040 I think it's the most predictable serious crime in our 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:52.800 lives that that never happens. Where everybody says or the 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:55.160 victim says, well, I had no idea that was coming. 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:57.280 Bob just came home and killed me. That's not what's 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.720 going on. She's been afraid, she's been concerned. There have 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.439 been police calls, there have been visits. You know, he 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:07.240 had usually witnessed violence in his childhood. He uh, he 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.200 made threats, He used weapons as an instrument of power. 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.320 He glorified weapons. He broke things in the house, which 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.359 is called symbolic violence. He you know, tore up the 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.560 picture that she was in. He tore up the wedding gown. Um, 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:23.239 she showed up at work wearing sunglasses. On and on 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:27.760 and on and on. It is never uh that. It's 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:31.080 the example I use as you have two wolves on 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:34.440 a mountain path somewhere and they meet each other face 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.280 to face, and one the ears go back, and the 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:39.360 tail gets big, and the hair goes up on their neck, 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:42.280 and a low growl starts, and then one attacks the other. 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.440 The victim wolf never says, oh, I had no idea 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:49.040 that was coming. All the signals have been exchanged, and 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:52.120 human beings are no different. Do you think you can 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:58.400 predict violence not only in a spousal homicide, but can 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:02.359 you predict violence in so many different other scenarios? Like 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:04.680 could you tell me if there's gonna be a lot 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:09.520 of civil unrest? It's true different each kind of prediction, 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.440 and there are many that society makes. Is this employee 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.119 gonna work out well for me? Is this boyfriend going 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:16.520 to turn out to be a great guy or a 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:20.359 dangerous guy? Is this pilot gonna do a good job? Etcetera. 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:23.359 And what people often say is, well, you never know 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.879 about people. And who says that is the principle of 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:30.680 the school that hired the teacher who molested the kids, Oh, well, 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:34.080 you never know about people. Um, going directly to your question. 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.359