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Speaker 1: Welcome to Head of Money. I'm Joel and I am

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Speaker 1: Matt and today we're talking the Stoic Path to Wealth

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Speaker 1: with Darius Feroux.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So you might be tempted to think that an alternative

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Speaker 3: name for this episode could just simply be Emotionless Investing,

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Speaker 3: but there's a lot more to Stoicism and finances, specifically

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Speaker 3: investing than just that. And we're excited to be joined

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Speaker 3: by Darius Feroux. He is a prolific author and entrepreneur

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Speaker 3: and productivity expert known for his work on personal development.

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Speaker 3: Much of his writing can be found over at his

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Speaker 3: site by the same name dariusferux dot com, where he

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Speaker 3: focuses on wealth building, productivity, and finding meaning and work.

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Speaker 3: And these are all topics that we're hoping to cover today.

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Speaker 3: And Darius has written several books, including the newly published

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Speaker 3: literally was just published yesterday, The Stoic Path to Wealth,

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Speaker 3: which blends ancient Stoic philosophy with modern financial wisdom. And

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Speaker 3: that's what we're mainly talking about today. It turns out

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Speaker 3: Marcus Aurelius, he's got something to say about your four

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Speaker 3: win k. But Darius, thank you so much for speaking

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Speaker 3: with us on how to money today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me really appreciate.

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Speaker 1: It of course. Yes, interesting subject and you're the expert

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Speaker 1: on it. So looking forward to this combo, Darius. The

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Speaker 1: first question that we ask anybody who comes on the show, though,

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Speaker 1: is what do you like to splurge on? Because Matt

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Speaker 1: and I we like to spurgeon craft beer, and we

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Speaker 1: figured that's a good release anybody, even if they're doing

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Speaker 1: the stoic the whys the smart thing saving investing for

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Speaker 1: their future, they got to have something to spend on

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Speaker 1: in here now too. What's that for you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So the thing that I splurge on is Apple products,

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Speaker 2: something that I struggled with for a long time because

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Speaker 2: I always try to talk myself out of it, saying, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: do I really need to have a new iPhone And

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Speaker 2: the answer is no because the previous one works perfectly,

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Speaker 2: But deep inside I just love to play with those

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Speaker 2: gadgets and my house looks like an Apple store. So

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Speaker 2: that's something that I splurge on and fortunately doesn't happen

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Speaker 2: that often, but still I really enjoy using the products. Nice.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So were you happy or disappointed with the new

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Speaker 3: headset that came out last year?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's the only product probably that I don't have, okay,

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Speaker 2: because that was just a little bit too much for me.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I honestly I have of course the phone,

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Speaker 2: the iPad, the MacBook, the iMac. I even got a

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Speaker 2: MacBook Pro. I have two laptops. Who needs two laptops?

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Speaker 1: Well, the only the biggest problem I think with anything

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Speaker 1: Apple or just the biggest electronic gadget that people replace

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Speaker 1: more frequently than they want to now the earbuds, like

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Speaker 1: I figure with Apple calls them, but I have the

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Speaker 1: cheap kind myself. But think about those, there's like one

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty bucks or something like that, maybe even more,

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Speaker 1: and they lose, they fall out of your ear like

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Speaker 1: it's those to me here. I don't know the biggest

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Speaker 1: problem right now with electronic waste.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I had some issues with the first one, but

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Speaker 2: now since I have the Pro or not the big one,

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Speaker 2: I don't have those either, the Max but the in

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Speaker 2: air earbuds. Fortunately I bought them once and they still work,

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Speaker 2: so nice. I've been lucky with those, very nice.

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Speaker 3: Darius is an Apple fanboy. We want to hear a

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Speaker 3: little bit about your background, Darius. Though your family it

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Speaker 3: sounds like they basically mean y'all started from nothing. So

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Speaker 3: can you just kind of share with us the impact

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Speaker 3: of leaving like a war torn country basically, and then

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Speaker 3: the impact that it had on you and your family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. So I was born in nineteen eighty seven

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Speaker 2: and Tehran, and at the time there was a war

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Speaker 2: between Iran and Iraq, and my parents fled the country

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Speaker 2: to the Netherlands in eighty eight when I was one,

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Speaker 2: and they basically had to start from zero. We almost

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Speaker 2: had no family, and my father had to go to

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Speaker 2: school and get educated and have a start a career,

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Speaker 2: and he always worked blue collar jobs, and my mother

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Speaker 2: stayed at home to raise me and my brother, and

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Speaker 2: we always lived paycheck to paycheck, and my parents always

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Speaker 2: did their best to make sure that we didn't know

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Speaker 2: the height of the financial struggles in the house, but

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Speaker 2: it was always present, you know, we could just feel

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Speaker 2: the energy even as kids. So that was something that

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Speaker 2: really created a sense of urgency in me, because as

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Speaker 2: a child, I knew that I had to become wealthy

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Speaker 2: because I just didn't want to go through life worrying

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Speaker 2: about money. So that was really something that really my

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Speaker 2: outlook on money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you said that your parents tried to kind of

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Speaker 1: guard you. They try to protect you from knowing kind

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Speaker 1: of what they're going through. And I think most parents,

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Speaker 1: the best parents, try to do that, but even still

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Speaker 1: it's insufficient. Like kids are perceptive and they're going to

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Speaker 1: pick up on the things that are going on behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes, even with parents trying to do their best

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Speaker 1: to make sure their kids aren't impacted by it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm curious you mentioned how that kind of sets

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Speaker 1: you up for desiring financial security in your own life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how did kind of what was going on with your

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Speaker 1: family's finances impact your career path, your view on money,

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Speaker 1: and then this kind of belief that you needed financial

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Speaker 1: security for yourself.

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Speaker 2: So when I was like twelve or thirteen, my friends

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Speaker 2: started to have jobs, and I went to my parents

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Speaker 2: and I said, look, everybody has a paper route or

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Speaker 2: works in a supermarket. I need to have a job

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Speaker 2: because I want to start making money. And they said, no,

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Speaker 2: you should focus on getting your degrees, focus on school

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Speaker 2: because if you get distracted, you might risk doing what

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Speaker 2: we did, which was to not educate it because in

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Speaker 2: my direct family, no one ever went to college, and

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Speaker 2: that's what my parents wanted for me, so I struggled

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Speaker 2: with it because I always saw my friends not only

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Speaker 2: it wasn't really about having a little bit of income

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Speaker 2: for them, but it was more that they had this responsibility,

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Speaker 2: and I felt like I was kind of missing out

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Speaker 2: on something. But looking back, I'm really glad that my

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Speaker 2: parents always encouraged me and my brother to focus on school,

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Speaker 2: because when I finished high school, they said, okay, fine,

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Speaker 2: just go and work during the summer, and that's what

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Speaker 2: I did. So I got a job at a call

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Speaker 2: center and I worked almost every day for the entire summer,

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Speaker 2: and I basically saved everything that I made. So looking back,

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Speaker 2: I think that was a good experience for me to

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Speaker 2: wait for so long until I could have my first job,

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Speaker 2: and then they really saved that money because at that time,

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Speaker 2: I was still thinking that you need to just hold

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Speaker 2: on to everything that you earned because that's how you

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Speaker 2: get wealthy. And of course I had no clue about investing.

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Speaker 2: And I did watch the movie Wall Street in my teens,

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Speaker 2: so that's one type of education exactly, so I did.

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Speaker 2: So I already knew at that stage, Okay, I need

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Speaker 2: to somehow become like Gordon Gecko I just don't want

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Speaker 2: to end up in jail. But I need to become

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Speaker 2: a stock trader or investor because that's where all the

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Speaker 2: money is. But yeah, it took me a long time

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Speaker 2: before I really figured out how to get into that.

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Speaker 3: Darius learned the exact obbsos lesson of what they're trying

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Speaker 3: to portray, which is like, look at this terrible, wretched

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Speaker 3: human being. Yeah, Garius is like, I want to be

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Speaker 3: that exactly my hair in that same beautiful way. So

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Speaker 3: how do you bridge the gap then? From being frugal, like, hey,

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Speaker 3: I see my parents struggles. They stress the importance of

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Speaker 3: education that way I can make a solid income.

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Speaker 1: But then I need to be an investor. I need

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Speaker 1: me building wealth and the Gordon Gecko thing that seems

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Speaker 1: like it's like the seed of something. But then how

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Speaker 1: did you become an educated investor? And what was that process? Like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have my first taste of investing in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. So at the time, I was

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Speaker 2: in college, and this is before the financial crisis. So

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Speaker 2: I was twenty years old and you could have a

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Speaker 2: side job at a bank, and I started in the

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Speaker 2: personal banking division, just handing out credit cards and processing

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Speaker 2: applications for credit, et cetera. And there was a position

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Speaker 2: to become a mutual fund advisor and all you had

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Speaker 2: to do was get a four week training and then

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Speaker 2: you could just call clients of the bank and offer

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Speaker 2: them the latest mutual funds. So my Gordon get go

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Speaker 2: censor goes off and I'm like, yeah, this is what

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Speaker 2: I need to do, and almost instantly I think I'm

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Speaker 2: this genius. So I also start to invest with my

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Speaker 2: own money, and I bought stocks of the bank that

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Speaker 2: I worked at ing and within a year, of course,

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Speaker 2: the financial crisis happens and I'm down like sixty percent.

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Speaker 3: Tough time to get invested in the market for the

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Speaker 3: first time, Yeah, exactly. It.

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Speaker 2: I honestly bought at the height of the market. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So that experience taught me a very important lesson that

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Speaker 2: money and investing is very emotional because it felt like

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Speaker 2: a gut punch. And I didn't sell at the bottom

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Speaker 2: because at that time I was still learning and I

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Speaker 2: knew that you shouldn't sell during these moments. However, I

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Speaker 2: didn't know what else to do because I was picking stocks,

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Speaker 2: which in hindsight wasn't a smart thing to start with

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Speaker 2: but I stayed in the market for a few years,

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Speaker 2: and then I just couldn't handle it anymore because every

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Speaker 2: time I looked at my account it was just down

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to stop the pain. So I sold

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Speaker 2: and I said, look, I need to figure this thing out,

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Speaker 2: and when I figured it out, I'll come back to investing.

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Speaker 2: And I just started on this educational spree. I went

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Speaker 2: to business school and specialized in finance and started reading

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Speaker 2: all of these investment books and yeah, still nothing really happened.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, I'm sure that was a period of

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Speaker 3: time where you wish you would have had a degree

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Speaker 3: of stoicism in your life that you would have been

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Speaker 3: able to abide by. But I guess on that note,

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Speaker 3: I feel like, generally speaking, it feels like stoicism. It's

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Speaker 3: a little bit more in Vogue's days. I'm sure Ryan

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Speaker 3: Holliday probably has a lot to do with that's the

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Speaker 3: resurgence of the stoics. But why have you found that

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Speaker 3: that approach to life resonates with you so much?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so fast forward to twenty fourteen fifteen. At that stage,

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Speaker 2: I was still trying to figure things out of my career.

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Speaker 2: I had started a business after I finished grad school

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Speaker 2: with my dad, and it was in the industrial laundry equipment.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't really passionate about that industry. And then I

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Speaker 2: started a corporate career in London. I worked at Gardner,

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Speaker 2: this IT research firm. I realized this is also not

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Speaker 2: for me. I want to start a business for myself,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't know what. So I moved back to

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Speaker 2: the Netherlands and I thought to myself, I need to

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Speaker 2: figure it out. I need to get started with something

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Speaker 2: because I have no clue what I'm doing. And at

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Speaker 2: that stage I discovered stoicism. Because every time I feel

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Speaker 2: like I'm overwhelmed or confused, I always turned to books

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Speaker 2: and I remember reading The Four Hour Workweek by Tim

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Speaker 2: Ferris and he had this small chapter or section on stoicism,

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Speaker 2: and I found that really helpful. So I started reading

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Speaker 2: all of the original works. And what I love about

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Speaker 2: the philosophy is that you can just explain it in

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Speaker 2: one sentence, which is focus on what you control and

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Speaker 2: ignore everything else. And it gave me a lot of

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Speaker 2: clarity because I honestly had no clue what I wanted

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Speaker 2: to do with my career, and I thought to myself, well,

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Speaker 2: now that I have a little bit more clarity and

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Speaker 2: I can stop worrying so much about my future, let

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Speaker 2: me start writing a book. And that's when I wrote

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Speaker 2: my first book. And around that same time, I also

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Speaker 2: thought to myself, well, I'm reading these works from these

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Speaker 2: philosophers like Seneca and Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus, and these

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Speaker 2: folks wrote about all of these ideas for better living

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Speaker 2: twenty three hundred years ago. But all that I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: is how can I use this knowledge to become a

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Speaker 2: better investor. So I was lucky that my book and

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Speaker 2: the first few articles that I wrote resonated with readers,

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Speaker 2: and I started to see a path to earning a

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Speaker 2: living with writing books. And that gave me this opportunity

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Speaker 2: to really study the stoics more and see how I

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Speaker 2: could finally figure out how I could apply it to

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Speaker 2: manage my emotions better, not only in my personal life,

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Speaker 2: but also with investing. And then slowly the seeds started

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Speaker 2: to grow for what I call stoic investing.

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Speaker 1: Because I feel like in the personal finance space, I've

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Speaker 1: seen a pivot in the opposite direction, which is to

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Speaker 1: talk about a lot of things that we can't control,

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Speaker 1: and the problem is that's a really deep thing, like

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of things we can't control, and

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Speaker 1: it's really we could spend hours and hours and hours

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Speaker 1: talking about a laundry list of those subjects and the

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Speaker 1: ways in which we're impacted by things that we can't

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Speaker 1: really have any sort of impact on the outcome of. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: talk to me. Stoicism the way you're describing it, and

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Speaker 1: kind of the historical approach is it's a holistic life,

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Speaker 1: the way of approaching life. You talk about it specifically

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Speaker 1: about the intersection of stoicism and money. What does stoicism

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Speaker 1: have to do with wealth building in particular?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So stoicism is a philosophy that really promotes indifference

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Speaker 2: to everything that you don't control. And when it comes

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Speaker 2: to investing and personal finance, you don't control. Like you said,

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Speaker 2: like ninety nine percent of what people talk about. We

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Speaker 2: don't control the economy, we don't control inflation and so forth.

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Speaker 2: That list is obvious. So basically everything that they talk

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Speaker 2: about on CNBC. But when you look at our actual

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Speaker 2: investments that we make, we also don't control the outcomes.

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Speaker 2: We all know that the S and P. Five hundred

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Speaker 2: has annualized returns of around ten percent over the past

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Speaker 2: fifty years. Everyone who's into personal finance knows this, But

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Speaker 2: the thing is that it's not within our control. Maybe

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Speaker 2: it's eight percent moving forward, but it shouldn't matter to

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Speaker 2: you as a stoic investor or as a person. I

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Speaker 2: feel like because the stoic's really promoted indifference towards outcomes.

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Speaker 2: So when you really applies stoicism to your personal finance

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Speaker 2: and investing strategy, you'll learn to create some distance between

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Speaker 2: yourself and your money. And I feel like that's the

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Speaker 2: best thing that you can do for your mental health,

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Speaker 2: but also for your career, because when you have some

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Speaker 2: indifference when it comes to your money, you can just

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Speaker 2: relax and focus on your career and your family and

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Speaker 2: your job and everything else that is important while you

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Speaker 2: are still doing your best. Because epictetis one of the

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Speaker 2: most stringent philosophers, said that you should demand the best

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Speaker 2: of yourself every single day, and to me, that means

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Speaker 2: that every single day I just need to perform my

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Speaker 2: duties as a human being and not complain and try

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Speaker 2: to become better not only in my career but as

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Speaker 2: a human being. So if I'm so obsessed with money,

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Speaker 2: I can't do those things. And that's something that I

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Speaker 2: personally experienced because I would say my entire life up

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Speaker 2: until around twenty seventeen when I finally started to apply

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Speaker 2: all of these lessons, because I discovered it like twenty

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Speaker 2: fourteen fifteen, but it took me a few years to

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Speaker 2: really apply it in my own life. But when I

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Speaker 2: started to apply it, I realized that I was too

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Speaker 2: obsessed with money and that caused a lot of friction

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Speaker 2: and anxiety and mental blocks. And when I resolved those things,

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Speaker 2: I could really focus on the act of investing, which

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Speaker 2: is actually just nothing more than a habit. Just like

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Speaker 2: we work out and eat healthy, et cetera, investing is

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Speaker 2: also a habit. So when you remove all of the friction,

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Speaker 2: you can just do it. You can invest without wasting

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Speaker 2: your time and energy and just focus on living a

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Speaker 2: good life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're talking about cultivating the sense of indifference, and

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Speaker 3: I like what you said about creating some distance between

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Speaker 3: you and your money, but like, how do you practically

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Speaker 3: go about that. I feel like we're kind of getting

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Speaker 3: into more of the meat of the intersection of stoicism

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Speaker 3: and investing or your wealth. But like you said, CNBC,

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Speaker 3: that's all they talk about.

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Speaker 1: All they're talking.

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Speaker 3: About is the noise. It's the things that you can't

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Speaker 3: really control. So is it as simple as creating like

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Speaker 3: an information diet right where you're limiting the inputs that

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Speaker 3: are having an impact on your life.

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Speaker 2: I'm not a fan of information diets, and I'm also

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Speaker 2: not a fan of the common investment advice of become

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Speaker 2: a passive investor and never look at your portfolio. I

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Speaker 2: love John Bogel, and John Bogel, the founder of Vanguard,

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Speaker 2: of course, basically made this whole ETF investing possible. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things that he said was, yeah, just

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Speaker 2: invest your entire career and just never open your brokerage account.

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Speaker 2: But I feel like you should be able to open

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Speaker 2: your account without getting swayed. You should be able to

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Speaker 2: look at CNBC. You should be able to read the

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Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal without thinking to yourself, oh, okay, what

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Speaker 2: should I do? Maybe should I I should sell or

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Speaker 2: maybe I should buy n Video stock or whatever? Right,

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Speaker 2: And I think that's the ultimate goal as a stoic investor,

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Speaker 2: that you become indifferent to all of the noise and

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Speaker 2: you can just handle everything that people throw at you

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Speaker 2: and the media throws at you, because you have the

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Speaker 2: sense of calm and you know what you are doing,

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Speaker 2: and you've eliminated like ninety nine point nine percent of

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Speaker 2: the investment strategies, and you know what you're doing, and

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Speaker 2: you're fine with everything that basically is happening because you

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Speaker 2: don't have to react.

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Speaker 1: Something you're getting to here, I think is being able

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Speaker 1: to trust yourself. And like one of the things is, yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe you don't like zone out and watch CNBC for

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Speaker 1: like six hours, Like you're probably setting yourself up for failure.

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming that a good stoic investor probably isn't doing that.

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Speaker 1: But you're also not saying I can't watch at all,

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Speaker 1: or I can't even open, you know, the homepage of

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Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal and read a few things without

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Speaker 1: without feeling swayed. So how do you You mentioned too,

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Speaker 1: that you found stoicism in twenty fourteen but found yourself

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Speaker 1: practicing not until like twenty seventeen. What was the gap

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Speaker 1: there and what does it look like then to incorporate

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Speaker 1: more of that those stoic approaches into your life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So one of the pieces of advice from the

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Speaker 2: stoics is to start small where you want to start

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Speaker 2: practicing stolicism. So I think also Epicthetis says something like,

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Speaker 2: start with a cup. Let's say your favorite gup falls

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Speaker 2: and bread. You should just say to yourself, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is just a cup, and then you can slowly

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Speaker 2: build it up. So for example, I remember getting in

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Speaker 2: a fender bender around that time, and I was really

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Speaker 2: worked up. While it wasn't that big of a deal,

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Speaker 2: but I was just like the emotions and the anger

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Speaker 2: within me was like starting to get a little bit

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Speaker 2: out of control. And later on I realized what am

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Speaker 2: I doing? Like I have insurance or it's not even

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Speaker 2: my fault. Why am I getting worked up about this?

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Speaker 2: And I feel like emotions are normal. I still get angry,

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Speaker 2: for example, when I injure my back or something. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's something that I'm kind of prone to because I

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Speaker 2: used to play basketball in college and I have this

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Speaker 2: lower back issue since then, and every few months or

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Speaker 2: sometimes a few years can go by without having issue,

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Speaker 2: but then it pops up, and then every time it happens,

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Speaker 2: I get frustrated at first. And the key to stoicism

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Speaker 2: is that in the beginning, you might be stuck in

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Speaker 2: that emotion for a few days. But the more you

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Speaker 2: practice and the more you build it up from a

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Speaker 2: cup to a fender bender, to an injury to maybe

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Speaker 2: at some point losing your job or losing some money

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Speaker 2: in the stock market, when you start to build it

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Speaker 2: up that way and practice shrugging it off, which is

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Speaker 2: also a classic technique of the Stoics. They literally said,

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Speaker 2: and this is something Marcus Aurelia said, when bad things happen,

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Speaker 2: shrug it off. Simply just the act of doing that

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Speaker 2: will put you more at ease. And after a while

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Speaker 2: I noticed that I was able to snap out of

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Speaker 2: my negative mindset or anxious mindset quicker. So now my

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Speaker 2: rule is that I can be stuck in negative emotions

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Speaker 2: or being frustrated for a few hours, or I can

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Speaker 2: give you an example. I actually injured my back last week.

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Speaker 3: This is why this one is fresh in mind, because

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Speaker 3: you're feeling it right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm feeling it. And it happened on a Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: And it was like at three after three pm. I

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Speaker 2: ordered some some some dumbbells for my home gym, and

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Speaker 2: I picked them up from the box and I felt

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Speaker 2: it in my lower back and I started cursing, and

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Speaker 2: I was angry, and you know, talked to my partner

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Speaker 2: and she was like, yeah, don't be so worked up.

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Speaker 2: And I stayed that emotion for a few hours, and

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Speaker 2: then by the evening I finally was able to snap

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Speaker 2: back by just remembering the stoics. And a misconception about

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Speaker 2: stoicism is that you shouldn't have emotions or it should

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Speaker 2: be numb. That's not true at all. The thing is

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Speaker 2: that you should be able to detect what you are

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Speaker 2: feeling and react accordingly. So translating that to investing, it

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Speaker 2: means that let's say a crash happens, you can look

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Speaker 2: at it. You don't have to run away from it.

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Speaker 2: You can maybe even explain it and understand it if

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Speaker 2: you have some historical context, which I always think helps,

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Speaker 2: because let's say you're a writer or a dentist, you

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Speaker 2: don't really have to have historical background into your profession,

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Speaker 2: but as an investor, it really helps. Knowing a little

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Speaker 2: bit of history of the stock market and you know

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Speaker 2: how crashes happen and corrections, et cetera. But let's say

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Speaker 2: you can look at all of that, and your goal

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Speaker 2: as an investor is to respond accordingly, and for a

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Speaker 2: long term investor, the response is nothing, just stick to

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Speaker 2: your strategy. So that was really what I was going

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Speaker 2: through in that timeframe, to really internalize the philosophy, see

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Speaker 2: how I could apply it in all areas of my life,

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Speaker 2: and then actually do it, you know, because I love

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Speaker 2: to write about the things that I've successfully accomplished myself,

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Speaker 2: and to be honest, I did write about personal finance, etc.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't until after the COVID crash that I

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Speaker 2: felt comfortable to come out and talk about stoicism and

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Speaker 2: investing because even though I was applying this stuff since

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty seventeen, I felt like I needed a stress test,

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Speaker 2: and that happened in twenty twenty and then, of course

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Speaker 2: the market is down by thirty percent or something and

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Speaker 2: what felt like a matter of days, but I was

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Speaker 2: finally calm. I wasn't doing anything. I didn't think to myself, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is a good buying opportunity. I have to be honest.

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Speaker 2: Of course, in hindsight it was. But my biggest win

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Speaker 2: came because I just stayed the course right, and that

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Speaker 2: was my biggest, biggest win. When I looked at my

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Speaker 2: personal life, because my first try didn't work out because

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Speaker 2: I sold in twenty ten, and then we all know

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Speaker 2: what happened from twenty eleven, you know, went on a

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Speaker 2: crazy bull run.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, the market blew up. Yeah, there's a big

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Speaker 3: difference between having that head knowledge and then actually implementing

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Speaker 3: that into your life and controlling your behavior. And I

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Speaker 3: like what you're saying here about how does it we

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Speaker 3: should be experiencing our emotions, but to not be distracted

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Speaker 3: by those emotions. And I'm looking forward to talking about

434
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 3: some of the different ways, some of the additional ways

435
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 3: that were able to implement some of the principles of

436
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 3: stoicism within our financial lives. We'll get to all of

437
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 3: that and more right after this.

438
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: Our way back from the break, still talking with Darius

439
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: Faru talking about stoicism, how it impacts your ability to

440
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: build wealth, your finances, and it will have a direct

441
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: impact has even just Darius example, selling in twenty ten,

442
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: not selling during the COVID crash, big difference than in

443
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: your net worth at the end of the day. And Darius,

444
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: I think it feels like basically what you're saying, if

445
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: I'm boiling it down correctly, is that that emotions or

446
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: your ability to at least respond appropriately to your emotions.

447
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: It supersedes knowledge. So tell me if I'm wrong here,

448
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: and then how much in depth investing information do we

449
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: need to consume to then be stoic investors? Is it

450
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: more about our behavior or is it more about the

451
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: things that we need to learn in order to be

452
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: great investors?

453
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's a little bit of both,

454
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 2: and more focused on the emotional plot because knowledge is important,

455
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 2: but it's not the most important thing. Because if that

456
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: was the case, as Warren Buffett said, historians or librarians

457
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: would all be rich. The key is really to know

458
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: what you're doing and have enough confidence in that knowledge

459
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 2: that you were able to stay the course. And one

460
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 2: of the most practical ways that you can do that

461
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: is by investing with money that you really won't miss.

462
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 2: Because there was another big mistake that I made, you know, seven,

463
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: was that I basically poured all of my savings at

464
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: the time into the market in the hopes of becoming wealthy.

465
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: And I think so many young investors or new investors

466
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: start out with investing a big chunk or maybe even

467
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: all of their savings, and then they start looking at

468
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: that portfolio with laser eyes and they just can't look away.

469
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: It sounds like an early story for Met's life. Honestly, Actually,

470
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: when you opened up the roth Ira Matt for real

471
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: and ye.

472
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I certainly neglected my savings and I was left

473
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: in an unfortunate position of needing to tap those savings

474
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 3: and I didn't because I didn't have that liquidity on hand.

475
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 3: I drew down on losses and ended up with less money.

476
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 3: But Darius earlier, actually, I want to kind of circle

477
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: back around here because you talked about forming the habit

478
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 3: of investing right, and I've heard you talk about how

479
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 3: it can be helpful to eliminate goals from your life,

480
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 3: so to you know, essentially think less about becoming a

481
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 3: millionaire as opposed to being like identifying that you are

482
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: an investor. This is something I'm going to do. I

483
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: do day and day out, say the course. But I'm

484
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 3: curious to hear your thoughts on that because I know

485
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 3: for a lot of people, having a big goal can

486
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: be incredibly helpful.

487
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: Right.

488
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 3: It's something that they're looking ahead to oft in the future.

489
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 3: It's this thing that they're like, Okay, this is why

490
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 3: I'm sacrificing. Now, this is why I'm spending less, is

491
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 3: because I want to be able to achieve some sense

492
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 3: of financial independence. Talk about that sort of balance it

493
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: might take to be able to do both.

494
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's really a good point, because if you

495
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: think about it, we all invest to have a better future.

496
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: But if I really take the ideas of the Stoics

497
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: and apply it to investing, which, by the way, the

498
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 2: Stoics were not against money, they were also indifferent to it,

499
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: but they said, if you can make money by remaining

500
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: honest by all means, do it. I love that because

501
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: it really doesn't judge money, and it's okay to have

502
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: goals to become wealthy, become rich. Now, there's another way

503
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: to look at this, which is by looking at the

504
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: present moment. So we all get the math. Okay, invest

505
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: five hundred bucks or invest a thousand bucks, and then

506
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: in thirty or twenty years you'll become a millionaire. But

507
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: we really don't think that far head. I think the

508
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: biggest benefit of investing and living a frugal life is

509
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: that you just become a more complete human being today.

510
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: To me, that's why I actually invest and why I've

511
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: always lived below my means and why I've actually haven't

512
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: upgraded my lifestyle in like six years or so, still

513
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 2: live in the same apartment.

514
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: I think it's a really good point, Darius. Like I

515
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: think lots of times people see it as a means

516
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: to an end. It's like, oh, I can't wait until

517
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: I'm able to like drive a BMW and live in

518
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: the fancy house. But then ultimately they get to that

519
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: point and they realize that's not very fulfilling either, and

520
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: that maybe they were.

521
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: I don't know.

522
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: We all look back on fondness some of those like

523
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: poor college or post college days, or that first high

524
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: school job where we were making six bucks an hour,

525
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: and we're like, but like the freedom that came with

526
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: just having some money in our pockets. So yeah, I

527
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: don't know, Talk to me. Then, what's the point of

528
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,719
Speaker 1: building wealth if you're not planning on upgrading your lifestyle?

529
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: Yea, The point is really freedom, right, because having all

530
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: of that wealth just gives you more freedom. And the

531
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 2: funny thing is that you don't really have to have

532
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: that wealth to already feel free. I feel like I

533
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: already felt emotionally free in twenty nineteen, when I was

534
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: still on the path, and I wasn't technically financially free.

535
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: And when I achieved a seven figure net worth a

536
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: year and a half or two years ago, I could say, Okay,

537
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: you know, if I quit working now, I can live

538
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: off my wealth and that's fine, right, so technically I

539
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: don't have to work. But the thing is that even

540
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: if you're on the path, you're saving, you're living below

541
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: your means, you have good financial habits, you enjoy your life,

542
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: you enjoy the simple things, and you are content. I

543
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: think you can already count yourself mentally free because it's

544
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: just a matter of time. And if you live a

545
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: life like that, nothing can break you. What's you know,

546
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 2: what are the threads that you're going to buy a

547
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 2: Mercedes S Class because you're driving E Class or something.

548
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: You know, Like it's like that that those are the

549
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: common pitfalls of people who constantly upgrade because there's there's

550
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: no end in sight. It's not like they're ever going

551
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: to say, Okay, you know, like I live in this

552
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: four bedroom house, maybe let's buy a two bedroom condo.

553
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: Right, it never goes in reverse?

554
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. Yeah. So, like the best way to have

555
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: a happy and content life is just to not get

556
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: on that treadmill. And if you are on a treadmill,

557
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: it's always possible to get off it. The thing is

558
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: just that you can't get on it anymore if you

559
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: want to just be in control of your life. Because

560
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: one I think one of the most important things that

561
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: I learned in my career was that, sure, I can

562
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 2: earn a good living even with writing and doing courses,

563
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: et cetera. I can earn one hundred or two hundred

564
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: or maybe even three hundred K a year. Can I

565
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: earn a million bucks a year? Is unlikely because there

566
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 2: are not a lot of folks who do that. And

567
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: the beauty is you don't even have to do that.

568
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: You can have a good income with a job that

569
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: you love. Combine that with healthy habits, financial habits, and

570
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: a solid investment strategy. You know what else do you need?

571
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 3: You're still going to win financially just by implementing those

572
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 3: proper habits. And like what I hear you saying is

573
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 3: and what you're recommending is for folks to find like

574
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: a level a sense of contentment. And you kind of

575
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 3: alluded to this before as well, but it sounds like

576
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 3: you've just been able to put money in its proper place.

577
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 3: And I think a large part of that is finding

578
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 3: in discovering your true desires, and that's something that you

579
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 3: that you talk about or that you've written about as well.

580
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: But how would you recommend because essentially it's difficult to

581
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 3: remove money, I think, from your mind unless you are

582
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: sort of like doing the Indiana Jones golden statue swap.

583
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 3: At the same time, you know, like at the very

584
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 3: moment you have because if you take it off, like

585
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 3: there's a vacuum, there, there's a void, but some you know,

586
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: you have to replace it with something. And you talk

587
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 3: about the true desires, how would you recommend for folks

588
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 3: to discover what those are in their life.

589
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good question because Stolicism is also

590
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: not about living a very stringent life. I still want

591
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: to buy a new iPhone every two years, you know,

592
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: but the thing is that I'm not going to eat

593
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: out every week, and I you know, I live a

594
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: simple life and go on vacation once a year, and

595
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: you know, save on other things. So I feel like

596
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 2: if you have a balance, while there are certain things

597
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: that cost money but give you a lot of satisfaction,

598
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 2: and at the same time, also is something that really

599
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 2: enriches your life without going broke. I feel like that's

600
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 2: a great way to keep things fun, because, as you said,

601
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 2: we all need money and we have to be honest

602
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: and practical about it, and that's one of the reasons

603
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 2: that we work and earn and save and all of

604
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: these things. But I really believe there is a middle path.

605
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 2: And when I started to research Stoicism, I discovered that

606
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 2: Stoicism was actually the philosophy of the middle path or

607
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: the golden mean. Because at the time in ancient Greece

608
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: and Rome, there were two primary schools of thought. There

609
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: were the cynics cynicism, and there were the Epicureanists. And

610
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: the cynics said life is hard and you need to

611
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 2: endure it and that's it. No pleasure, no fun, no nothing.

612
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: And the epicurean said life is hard and the only

613
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 2: way to forget it is to seek pleasure. So both

614
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: of them said that life is hard, but their mechanism

615
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: of dealing or coping was different. Now, the Stoics came

616
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 2: and said, well, life is hard, we need to deal

617
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: with it, we need to be tougher, but at the

618
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 2: same time, we don't need to punish ourselves. So that's

619
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: why I think the philosophy has remained popular all these

620
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: years in centuries, because I feel like it's the most

621
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: practical philosophy and something that, as you can see, can

622
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 2: apply to every area. Like I took the philosophy and

623
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: apply it to investing, I guess because my subconscious mind

624
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: was always focused on investing in the stock market. So

625
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: as soon as I picked up the Stoics, I started

626
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: to think about how I could apply it to investing,

627
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: and other people who wanted to use stoicism to improve

628
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: their personal lives and mindset or relationships use it that way.

629
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: And I think that's really the beauty of this philosophy.

630
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you've kind of taken it at

631
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: those time tested truths. You've adapted it kind of for

632
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: the way you live the things you're interested in, And

633
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: it's really cool to see how malleable that philosophy is

634
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: and how it can serve people thousands of years later.

635
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: We've got a few more questions we're going to get

636
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: to with you, Darius, including I'm talking about self development

637
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: and stoicism when we're talking about our career path. We'll

638
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: get to a few questions on that. Right after this.

639
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 3: We are back for the break, we're talking with Darius

640
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 3: Faru about stoicism, and Darius, in your book, you've got

641
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: a chapter about how valuable skills. Essentially they're they're better

642
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 3: than money. And I'm sure there's a lot of folks

643
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: out there who are thinking, Okay, I'd much rather have

644
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,959
Speaker 3: a whole lot of money, you may.

645
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: Five million skills.

646
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly. It's like, oh, this is easy for

647
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 3: you to say. It even makes me think back to

648
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 3: as you're like some of the examples you're you're giving,

649
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 3: I forget which philosopher, but like, start with a cup,

650
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: allow the cup to break, and then shrug it off

651
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 3: and realize over time you can kind of build up

652
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 3: your resilience to losses. But like, I feel like an

653
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 3: argument to be made against that is like, well, sure,

654
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 3: that's an easy argument to make if you've got a

655
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 3: lot of cups. Well that's an easy argument to make

656
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 3: if you've got a lot of money that like, oh no,

657
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 3: what you really need instead are skills, not money. But

658
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 3: make an argument for that, for the ability for us

659
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 3: to better ourselves as individuals.

660
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, what you said about preferring money is something

661
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: that Seneca also said. He said, if someone told me,

662
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 2: would you rather be rich or poor? I would of

663
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: course I I'd rather be rich. But if I would

664
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: be poor, that's also okay. And that's the key to stoicism.

665
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: I think they look at all situations as fine. If

666
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: this is my life and this is my situation that's

667
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: been given to me, that's okay. Here's how I'm going

668
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: to deal with it. And the reason that I started

669
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: this book with a chapter on skills is that that's

670
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: where I started. This is where I feel everyone who

671
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 2: starts from zero, or who's not born into wealth should start,

672
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 2: because you can make money with nothing else than your skills.

673
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: And if you are starting this journey towards wealth and

674
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: to financial freedom, it can be very overwhelming. And that

675
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: was also the case for me. When I started, I

676
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 2: thought to myself, Wow, you know, I need to make

677
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 2: a few hundred thousand dollars a year. How can I

678
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 2: do that? I don't know if I can ever do that,

679
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 2: you know, Like, especially when I started writing and my

680
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 2: first book just sold maybe like two hundred copies in

681
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 2: the first year or the first six months when it

682
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 2: came out, I thought to myself, Yeah, there's no way

683
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 2: I can do this full time. But over the years,

684
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 2: the numbers, of course kept growing, and if I look back,

685
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: the reason or one of the things that really inspired

686
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: me the most was this idea to work with your

687
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: natural abilities, or to focus on your strengths, simply put,

688
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: and to build your career on top of your strength

689
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: and to get world class at the things that you

690
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: are already good at, because if you try to become

691
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: good at the things that you're not good at, you

692
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: might become average. And that's great. But if you want

693
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: to earn more than average, you need to be great.

694
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 2: And that's the thing that sounds very obvious, and it's

695
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 2: very obvious, but I feel like not enough folks are

696
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: really living. And that was true for me. It was

697
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: really true for me until I discovered stoicism, where I

698
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: finally realized, you know, like I just need to forget

699
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: about everything else. You know. Having this family business is great.

700
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: I love it, but it's not really aligned with my

701
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 2: strengths because I don't love this industry. Climbing the corporate

702
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 2: ladder is great, but I'm an introvert. I don't like strangers,

703
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 2: I don't like people. I just like to be alone.

704
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 2: So being a writer is perfect for me because.

705
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: We get it, Darius. We'll let you go in just

706
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: a second.

707
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: Okay, that was my message, and I'm just kidding this interview.

708
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 2: But the thing is, like my strength is just to

709
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 2: sit alone in a room for like hours and days

710
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 2: on end. I can just do that for a very

711
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 2: long time. You know. I have close friends who say

712
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: that sounds like the worst thing ever.

713
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: We're opposite human Yeah, we're opposite people.

714
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,479
Speaker 2: Right, So when I tell them what I do, they're like, oh, man,

715
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 2: I wish I would never I never have to do that.

716
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 2: And I think this is why I became a writer,

717
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,959
Speaker 2: because I finally had permission, let's put it that way,

718
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: from not only the stoics, but also like management thinkers

719
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: like Peter Drucker, who famously said that that you should

720
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: improve your strengths and ignore your weaknesses. And I really

721
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: took that advice to heart. And as I started to

722
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: become better at writing and only focused on writing, I

723
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: also got better rewards from it and better reach. And yeah,

724
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: now this is my eighth book, so I feel like

725
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 2: that that was a good decision to ignore everything else

726
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: and and just focus on writing.

727
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 3: Very nice, So for you the skill, Like we're literally

728
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 3: talking about the skill of writing and how you were

729
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 3: able to improve there. And yeah, are there some general

730
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 3: skills for folks out there that kind of go across industry,

731
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 3: across different jobs that you think individuals should likely develop.

732
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 3: Do you think there's some different practices that you think

733
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 3: are undervalued when it comes to our ability to just

734
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 3: not only become better human beings, better people, but also

735
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:53,919
Speaker 3: just to make more money too.

736
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think one of the best income generating skills

737
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: is actually every day writing, not writing books or articles.

738
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 2: But I feel like the better you are at translating

739
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: your thoughts into words, the better you will become at communication.

740
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 2: So writing is a meta skill. And I'm a little

741
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 2: bit afraid that more and more people will think that

742
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: writing is for ai But wow, yeah, you know that's

743
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 2: something that I wish people would not think, because writing

744
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:32,240
Speaker 2: is really just communication. It's just translating your thoughts, which

745
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: are almost always abstract, into clear and concise words. And

746
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 2: if you want to become a better communicator or leader, storyteller, salesperson,

747
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: someone who wants to ask for a raise at any job,

748
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 2: I feel like the better you are at that process

749
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 2: the more odds of succeeding in your career.

750
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's advice, and I think you're right

751
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: that the human process of organizing our thoughts our minds

752
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: can be a big jumble mess sometimes, and writing can

753
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: help you put those things out in order so you

754
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: realize what you think, why you think it. If you're

755
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: able to write down those those thoughts, you're able to

756
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: bring clarity to yourself and then hopefully to others at

757
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: some point too.

758
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

759
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 2: And it's as simple as just journaling, right, It's just

760
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 2: as simple as journaling daily, And just that practice of

761
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: journaling will really improve your writing. So a lot of

762
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: folks think, oh, how should I do that? You know,

763
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to go to writing workshops. I don't

764
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 2: want to, you know, take courses. I also don't think

765
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 2: that's necessary. Just taking or buying a physical journal or

766
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: opening your notes app on your phone is enough to

767
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 2: just start translating your thoughts into words every day. And

768
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: if you do that every day, you'll automatically get better

769
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 2: at it.

770
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 3: What other ways, Darius, have you seen stoicism impact your life?

771
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 3: You kind of gave some examples of whether it's maybe

772
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 3: how you treat other people right, So the fender bender

773
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: sort of scenario that maybe allows you to kind of

774
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 3: keep your cool there when it came to personal injury

775
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 3: as you hurt your back. Like, have you seen other

776
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 3: areas of your life where you've been able to apply

777
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 3: the principles of stoicism other than personal finances and growing wealth.

778
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in my relationship with my partner, it's been

779
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,479
Speaker 2: one of the most important things because when we met,

780
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 2: she was not familiar with stoicism, but of course it

781
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: was one of the first topics that came up where

782
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: we met, and yeah, she really enjoys the idea and

783
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: slowly started applying it as well, to the point where

784
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: she reminds me to be stoic in certain situations when

785
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: I'm not. So I feel like, if you have a relationship,

786
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 2: I think it's a great way to keep each other accountable.

787
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: And yeah, when it goes both ways, it's an extra

788
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: a layer of or an extra reminder to just not

789
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: get get too emotional and not get out of control,

790
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: because yeah, life is already so hard, you know, Like

791
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 2: life is complex and we all have these responsibilities and

792
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 2: I am definitely one of those people who tends to

793
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:28,439
Speaker 2: or has this natural tendency to make things harder, and

794
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 2: stoicism helps me to combat that feeling.

795
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 1: Darius, there's been a great conversation. Man, love the book,

796
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: and I love kind of what you're putting out there

797
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,959
Speaker 1: into the world. Where can How to Money listeners find

798
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: your book and purchase it if they're interested?

799
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 2: So the best way to find out more about the

800
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 2: book is to go to stoicpath to wealth dot com

801
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 2: or on DARIUSFORU dot com. Very nice.

802
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 3: We'll link to both of those in our show notes. Darius,

803
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 3: thank you so much for talking with us today.

804
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me really what this all right? Matt?

805
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: I love conversations like this because you and I behind

806
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 1: the scenes were always talking about how the truth about

807
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: personal finance is there's always so much you can learn,

808
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: and the truth about like our the depths of our

809
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: human emotion and reactions to things or like limitless and

810
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: the more we can control those. Yeah, a healthy amount

811
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: of knowledge is good. But at some point, like the

812
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: biggest thing we have to control in our lives as

813
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: human beings is ourselves, and market's gonna do what it's

814
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: gonna do. We'll build wealth over time, but we have

815
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: to be able to control our reactions to do that.

816
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 1: So I love this conversation. Was what was your big

817
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: takeaway from it? So I think this is what do

818
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: you call it recency bias?

819
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 3: But it was right there at the end when he

820
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 3: was talking about journaling and he was specifically talking about

821
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 3: writing because we were taking I had asked him about

822
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 3: skills and I'm thinking, okay, networking or never burning bridges,

823
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 3: I don't know, just different things that you want to

824
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 3: keep in mind when you're out in the world, out

825
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 3: in the business world, regardless of the industry that you're in.

826
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 3: And he immediately started talking about writing, and so that's

827
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 3: why I kind of clarified. I was like, well, what

828
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 3: about for everybody, like, aside from you, obviously you are

829
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 3: a writer, and he kind of doubled down. He was

830
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 3: just like, no, I actually think I think for everybody,

831
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 3: everybody should likely be journaling, they should be writing more.

832
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 3: And the reason that he gave for that, I think

833
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,280
Speaker 3: was so true, which is that we need the ability

834
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 3: to process our thoughts. And you know what I immediately

835
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 3: made think of was like, over the past couple of years,

836
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 3: everyone's been talking about the vibes, right how the vibes

837
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 3: are off. But like vibes is what is vibes? Nobody

838
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 3: really knows. It's just like this collective feeling. Yes, it's

839
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 3: like this amorphous thing. And it almost feels kind of

840
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 3: lazy if you think about it, right, because it's like, well, no,

841
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 3: what is vibes? Like you need to identify what that

842
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 3: is and communicate better to me what you're feeling or

843
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 3: put your finger on it. And I know sometimes it's

844
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 3: hard for us to put our fingers on things, but

845
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 3: I think it also comes at the expense of us

846
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 3: not taking the time to process what we're thinking about things,

847
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 3: how we're feeling about things. And I totally agree with

848
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 3: what he's saying here. I have looked back at different

849
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 3: times in my life and I feel like I've had

850
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 3: the most clarity when I have written the most in

851
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 3: my own journal, which is I don't think it's something

852
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 3: we've ever really talked about here on the show, but

853
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 3: it is the synthesis and the formation and the processing

854
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 3: of your own ideas and the more that you are

855
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 3: going to be able to do that and to distill

856
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 3: that down and communicate that to others in your life,

857
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 3: regardless of what it is that you do. I think

858
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 3: you're going to find yourself in a much more successful position.

859
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

860
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: I have like some intuitive thoughts about personal finance for

861
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: a long time, but until I started like writing those down,

862
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: formulating those things, it was just kind of helter skelter.

863
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: And then it's like, wait, but what do I actually think?

864
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 1: And I think that's true of so many things.

865
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, so very non money related takeaway for me, but yeah,

866
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 3: what about for you.

867
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: I love when you said, like, put some distance between

868
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: yourself and your money, so good, and I think it's

869
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: spot on. I think we need a healthier detachment from

870
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: our money, where we're doing the right things. We're making

871
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: sure that we're growing the gap, we're funneling money into

872
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 1: those retirement accounts, we have enough set aside in saving,

873
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: but that when it comes to the outcome and the results,

874
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: maybe we're obsessing about those things a little too much.

875
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: And I think maybe he's right, like, we don't have

876
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: to blind ourselves from the outcome, but the more we

877
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: can become zen with whatever happens, realizing that hey, the

878
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: rest of twenty twenty four might be like the first

879
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: half might be awesome, or the stock market could experience

880
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: like some big tantrums like we don't know who knows?

881
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: But and then part of that is what's your goal.

882
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: If your goal is as a long term investor, not

883
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: even doing anything with this money until decades down the road,

884
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: then it doesn't even matter. And so I think that

885
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: healthy detachment is so crucial to handling money. Well, I

886
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 1: feel like it's been harder for me as I think

887
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: of myself as a fairly emotional dude. But the more

888
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: I've been able to kind of take motion out of

889
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: some of my money, it doesn't mean I'm emotion less,

890
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: but it just means I'm not putting as much of

891
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 1: my emotional focus on what's going on with my money

892
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: at that particular moment.

893
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not denying your feelings, like feel the feelings,

894
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 3: but just know what it is you need to continue

895
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 3: to do having also field the feelings. But uh, yeah,

896
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 3: that's good man. But let's introduce the beer that you

897
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 3: and I enjoyed during this episode. It was a field

898
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 3: Trip wheat beer. This is by Monday Nights Brewing.

899
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 2: You. What are your thoughts on it? Joel?

900
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: I thought it was refreshing, had a light lemon zest vibe.

901
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: It had a nice mouthfeel, which wheat beers often do

902
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: bring to the table. So this it's laid back in

903
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: some ways, but in other ways it's got like it's

904
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: got a little bit of that pepper spice going on too.

905
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: It's got some interesting flavors going on that you might

906
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: not get and just kind of your basic run of

907
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: the mill person.

908
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 3: I feel like the entire time I was enjoying this,

909
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 3: I kept looking at the cane because it's got mushrooms, yeah,

910
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 3: all over it, And so I wasn't necessarily picking up

911
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 3: on like earthy, wet soil kind of vibes or anything

912
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 3: like that. It really was pretty light and citrusy and bright,

913
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 3: and I didn't taste any fun. Guy, Yeah, I didn't either,

914
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:50,919
Speaker 3: and so I wouldn't. I was trying to figure out

915
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 3: why it is that they stuck mushrooms on here, other

916
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 3: than the fact that they look really cool, and maybe

917
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 3: that's all they looked cool. Maybe that's all they're going for.

918
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 3: But uh, yeah, glad that you and I got to

919
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 3: enjoy the one today. This is a local brewery Monday

920
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 3: night brewing here in Atlanta, but that's going to be

921
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 3: it for this episode. Listeners can find our show notes

922
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 3: up on the website at howdomoney dot com. And so

923
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 3: until next time, best Trinds out, best Friends out,