WEBVTT - BlueAnon: Alt National Park Service 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:07.480 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:14.080 Seventeen two nineteen, two hundred and twenty seven. General public, 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:18.840 please disregard as this podcast as fighting battles on multiple fronts. 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.120 This podcast is it could happen here, and I'm Garrison Davis. 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:28.280 Last episode, I talked with Miowong about the trajectory of 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:34.360 liberal conspiracy theories, specifically throughout the last ten years, from 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.919 Russia Gate to Trump's staged assassination and twenty twenty four 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:44.920 election denial. This resurgence of liberal conspiracism has been dubbed Bluanon. 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.800 If you want more background on that, go listen to 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.600 our previous episode. But this episode is about a new 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:58.040 evolution of bluing on and possibly the most Qanani iteration 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:04.480 we've seen yet. The Alt National Park Service, a social 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:08.400 media engagement farming account that gained traction on Blue Sky 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:12.360 and Facebook last February. In March admidst cuts to the 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.280 Park Service from the Trump administration. This account gained followers 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.280 by posing as a group of anti Trump dissidents from 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:24.080 within the Park Service, and soon enough it inspired a 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:30.040 collection of other alt government accounts like Alt CDC, Alt Nih, 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.880 Alt Yellowstone, and Alt Noah. The original Alt National Park 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:39.240 Service account basically never talks about the park Service itself, 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.600 but during the first few months of Trump's second term, 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:47.360 the account started going viral by posting sequences of random 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:53.040 numbers as ostensibly coded messages to other hashtag resistance fighters, 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.600 though the account has since experimented with, altered and refined 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.720 their engagement strategies. To hear more about that and how 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.200 Alt National Park Service fits into this trend of liberal 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.680 conspiracy theories, I talked with someone who has spent the 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:13.160 past few months documenting and writing about this account. The 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:17.080 person who runs the alt Watcher account on Blue Sky 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:21.560 and writes about their research on the blog Dispatches from 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.840 the Online Void. So here's that interview. 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.160 My name's Jack. I'm the user behind the account alt 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.320 Watcher on Blue Sky, and I've been following the Alt 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.400 National Park Service for about six months, just documenting what 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:39.600 they do and how they steal from journalists and how 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.040 they're driving a lot of people insane, including me. 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:49.400 What is the Alt National Park Service or first, what 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.480 does the Alt National Park Service claim to be? 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.959 Yeah, that's an important difference. The All National Park Service 0:02:56.040 --> 0:03:00.800 claims to be a loose affiliation of a non former 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.480 parks employees that are either still employed by the Park 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.040 Service and kind of working behind the scenes, or who 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.840 were fired or laid off by the Trump administration and 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.520 are now part of a nationwide coalition to resist the government. 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.799 That's what they claim to be. What they really are 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:21.919 is just a Facebook shit posting account. We're not sure 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.120 if it's one person behind it or if it's a group. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.400 It's remarkably hard to find out anything about the person 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.080 who is behind the account, who they are, where they are, 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.639 and how they started this. But what they do most 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.920 of the time is repost the work of journalists, directly 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:41.720 plagiarize from news outlets, and post these vaguely conspiratorial things 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.240 online to try to whip up engagement from their followers. 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:49.200 I first became aware of this back in probably March 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.880 of twenty twenty five, specifically when on Blue Sky they 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.200 just started posting a lot of numbers. Yes, I was 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.240 aware that this account was created, like in the aftermath 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.560 of some some like Doge related cuts to the Park 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:08.600 Service or like anti Dei, anti woke stuff, And then 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.480 this account popped up claiming to be you know, like 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:17.120 resistance from inside to people who watch politics like seriously 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.839 for their jobs. Was very clear that this was not 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.800 a legitimate organization, and then they just started posting numbers 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:29.800 sequences of numbers along with other cryptic messages, and this 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:34.680 like immediately starts hitting like the q Andon bells. Back 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:38.800 in July of twenty twenty four, there's a Washington Post 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:45.320 article about the Trump assassination conspiracy theories, but specifically it 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.239 was it was a I think it was an opinion 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:52.200 piece critical of terming liberal conspiracy. 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:53.880 Theories as as quote unquote bleuing on. 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.320 They said, quote the main similarity of QAnon and bluing 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.039 on is that they rhyme. And for a while I 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.840 kind of understood this criticism and agree with parts of it, 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.440 because there was there was structural differences between some of 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.839 how you know, liberals or like quote unquote the left 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:16.320 engage in conspiratorial thinking, and like the function of chewing 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:20.400 on the numbers think started to really mess with that 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.560 analysis because then you started to see the actual like 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:29.320 methodology and like the ideological function of q andon start 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.520 to get replicated in what is most likely just like 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:37.800 engagement farming, but for the people who are following this 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.720 account and engaging with it, and like it becomes like 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.719 an important part of their life and their their perception 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.000 of like hashtag resistance. And I think that's where blue 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.640 and on actually proved itself as a term, was in 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.440 March of twenty five, I guess, let's talk about the numbers. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.320 You know what I would love I would love to 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.760 talk about the numbers are also what stood out to me, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.160 and that is why I ended up making my account 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.960 and diving into all this. During the pandemic, I got 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:11.200 obsessed with quana, you know, as as just what is this? 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:12.760 A lot of people did. 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.440 A lot of people did, you know, Look, pandemic did 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.560 a lot of crazy things to us. Some people learned 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.160 to knit, some people got good at baking. I got 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:24.280 really learning about q and on and I am. I'm 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.160 a huge fan of the QAA podcast. I listened to 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:32.080 that constantly, And as soon as I saw altonps post 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.520 one of the numbers, I realized, I'm reading this in 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.800 their que voice. Yeah, their their voice modulated voice that 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.680 sounds like this whenever they would post. And I started 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.200 reading all the numbers post that way, and just like 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:49.200 you said, something clicked and I went, oh this is oh, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.239 I see what they're doing. Here. Yeah, and they've posted 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.760 numbers many times. I've got my giant spreadsheet pulled up 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:57.920 here and I think they've posted something like thirty numbers. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.320 It's been a while since they've done it. But the 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.840 thing that really gave the game away from me was 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.719 during one of these numbers posts, they posted some random 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.640 number and then replied to themselves and said, for discussion, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.880 what do you think these numbers mean? And I said, oh, 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:16.520 I see what's happening. 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:20.000 Here, kind of giving away the game there exactly. 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:20.760 Yeah. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.520 This is not a group of government insiders communicating with 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.040 their coalition. This is the user behind a Facebook account 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.080 realizing in real time that they've stumbled on like a 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.240 gold mine for engagement. Yeah, oh, we can just do 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.760 this and people will do the work for us, and 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:40.840 we're just going to say that out. 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:45.160 Loud and throughout. Like March and April, their count just 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:49.680 like rocketed in popularity. Yes, I've not actually looked on 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.200 their Facebook account. Besides, like the post that you've shared, 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.480 I've only seen them on Blue Sky. What is the 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.880 difference of their presence on Facebook versus like blue Sky 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:00.680 Blue Sky. 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.080 I think there at something like nine hundred k on 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:05.120 Facebook the last time I checked, it was about four 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:05.920 point three million. 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:06.720 Geez. 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:11.080 Yeah, they are a massive presence on Facebook, and they've 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.400 been monetizing their posts recently. There have been sponsored content 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:16.840 on Facebook leading to their page. 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.600 This is where I think one of the differences from 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.760 like how Q and unfunctioned and all National Park Service, 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.600 because you know, Q was not monetizing posts on the. 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:30.920 Chances I would have loved to see him try. That'd 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:31.640 be really funny. 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.720 I do not see like this account existing as like 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.920 as a sort of operation to influence the political trajectory 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.160 of the United States the same way that the qan 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.560 on account at least evolved in that capacity. Even if 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.040 it started off as like a shit posting thing exactly, 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.840 it certainly evolved with more of a malicious intent. The 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:52.800 people behind you know, Q posting. 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:55.520 Yeah, I think that's a big difference between them, is 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.000 that this is straightforwardly an engagement far. 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.400 Yeah, using some those tactics, especially like early on, but 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:06.360 for a very simple reason, and that's that's making money 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:07.160 on the Internet. 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.720 Like everybody is trying to do it. 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:14.040 It's just like internet hustle culture stuff with no grappling 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.560 with like the consequences that has for like the psyche 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.599 of people who engage with your contents. 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.200 Exactly, and the psyche of people who engage with this 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.240 content is really what keeps me coming back to this project, 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.760 because that is the real harm I see here. Like 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.560 the online drifters are a diamond, doesn't you know people 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.800 who sell stuff online? It's everywhere, it's inescapable. What's unique 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.720 about alt NPS is that they are trying to make 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.240 money on convincing people that this is really you know, 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:47.360 they're not just selling hashtag resist shirts or whatever. They're 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.200 trying to get money out of people by convincing them 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.840 that they really are part of a shadow resistance against 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.800 against Trump, and that you can buy their shirts or 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.320 you can straightforwardly just send them money for things like 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.880 their all Junior Ranger program that they've said they're starting, 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.839 and if you send them a dollar, you're helping fund 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.720 that program. And it's totally real. And the fact that 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.400 they didn't mention it for seven straight months after initially 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.760 announcing it is something you definitely shouldn't worry about. 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.440 Do you know what else you definitely shouldn't worry about? 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:32.960 This short at break so they have face pushback for 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.120 their numbers posting, but they have found a way to 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:40.400 justify it publicly, to talk about like how they've framed 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:44.240 the posting of just like four numbers, two numbers, and 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.720 like the sort of like defense of the account that 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:47.600 it plays. 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.640 Yeah, that was this maybe says something about me, But 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:53.800 that was maybe the post that made me the angriest 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.960 of anything they've done, because I have a deep seated 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.040 reaction to feeling like one of the thinks I'm stupid, 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:02.920 And all I could think is do you think I'm 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.200 an idiot? When I saw their reaction to this, Because 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.359 we are often criticized for the numbers we post online. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.120 We can't tell you everything. Sorry, And then they went 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:19.000 on this big half explanation about stingrays and cell site simulators. 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:20.840 Cell site simulators. 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:26.079 Yeah, but they didn't explain what those actually do. They 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.080 did not explicitly claim they were being surveilled by one, 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.880 and they didn't explain why the existence of stingrays and 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.400 cell site simulators means that they should. 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.680 Do all this on Facebook instead posting numbers does not 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:43.839 bypass the security concerns posed by the presence of a 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.480 cell site simulator. No, because you're still posting publicly on 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:48.400 the Internet. 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:49.640 That doesn't matter at all. 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:51.640 Yeah, you're pulling something the other of your asse that 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.880 sounds technical, that's going to trick your average boomer And 0:11:55.960 --> 0:12:00.199 maybe you know three out of five gen X people 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:04.760 who are scrolling Facebook slash Blue Sky and like that's 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.800 all they need to do. But for anyone who knows 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.800 what a cell site simulator is or how like internet 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.360 communications works, it's very very clear that this is just 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:14.760 like completely bullshit. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.560 It's completely bullshit because you're right that this is all 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:19.640 they need to do. They just need to deflect. And 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:21.439 I think that's what stood out to me about this 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:23.840 post in particular, is that it showed me that the 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:25.880 person or people behind all the time ps have a 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:30.079 genuine level of pr skill. You know, they have a 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.600 certain level of what I think is a real skill 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:37.120 at deflection public relations and being able to spin what 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.440 they're saying. You know, that's a genuine skill. It's a 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.959 shame that it's being applied to this instead of, I mean, 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.600 anything else, But that is a skill that they have 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:51.240 that they're able to deploy in defense of their conspiratorial posting. 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:53.640 The other thing that they post in relation to the 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:59.679 numbers is there one time forward catchphrase general public can disregard? 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.960 Don't I talk about the context of those posts. 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.240 Yes, those were replies that they would make to the 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.880 numbers posts, usually to the numbers posts, but occasionally to 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.240 just some other cryptic thing they would post. They would 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.800 post their numbers, say forty four, and then they would 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:20.800 reply to themselves saying general public can disregard, or they'd 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.120 say please disregard if you are a member of the 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:28.000 general public. And there were a lot of people online 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.160 who saw that and thought, oh, that must mean it's 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:33.000 a code. It has to be real. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.760 They're engaged in some sort of like secret agent spy work, 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.520 and this is very really important. Yeah. 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.480 Yeah, And I would see a lot of people push 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.120 back on any criticism that the account would get for 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.720 this by saying things like, it's code for a reason. 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.720 You know, guys, they're speaking in code. Don't try to 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.520 crack the code. It's not for us, you know, this 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.280 is for the coalition. And whenever anybody would say I 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.200 don't think this is real, or like any of the 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.160 things we've talked about about, why this doesn't make sense, 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.360 they would instantly be accused of being a right wing 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.760 infiltrator or a troll or a MAGA spy or something 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.120 like that. You know, there can be no actual criticism 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:17.040 of the account. There can only be infiltration. 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.640 Yeah, and that does have more like Q overlap, I 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.280 suppose absolutely. 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:22.880 I don't know. 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.920 It's odd because like throughout through writing about all this 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.960 like bluing on stuff. As much as this stuff is 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.520 a legitimate problem, like which it is, it's just a 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.360 symptom of a larger political problem in America, and the 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.400 people engaged with it, if anything, are kind of victims 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.440 as well as like perpetrators. And like this was the 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:45.240 same thing with like Q and on, where like your 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.600 average person engaged with it as bad as it is 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:50.520 and some of the stuff that they might like say 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:54.640 or do, I also just feel bad for the people involved. 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.640 And it's this same thing with this. 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:02.080 As annoying as this kind of like lib slop can be, 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.960 the people who have to have to believe in something 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.440 like this in order to like keep going, that is 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.800 kind of like a tragedy in a way, and this 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.320 is obviously is serving some important psychological function for them. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:21.320 Yeah, I totally agree, And I think that's that sadness. 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.840 I think is What keeps me wanting to engage with this. 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.120 You know, when I look at this and I see 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.760 alt NPS trying to get people to buy their T 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:34.120 shirts or just farm engagement, that's not remarkable to me. 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:36.840 That's normal. Yeah, that happens on the internet all the time. 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.720 What keeps me coming back to wanting to fight this 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.920 and wanting to document all this is the people I 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.400 see in the replies. Yeah, the people who say that 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.040 alt NPS brings them so much hope. It's what's keeping 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:51.200 them from falling into despair. And it's not that I 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.400 want to take that away from them, It's that I 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.560 don't like that their need for that is being used. 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.520 Yeah, this is like a predatory mode of trying to 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:00.640 capital that. 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.280 Absolutely. Yeah, the account is trying to capitalize on people's 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.320 need for hope. You know, they need to believe that 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.640 there is someone fighting for them because in a lot 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.080 of ways, it doesn't feel like anyone is. You know, 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:16.880 it feels like our politicians are ineffectual, our institutions are crumbling. 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.280 We need someone to be there. We need ironically, we 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.280 need patriots to be in control. Yeah, we need to 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.960 trust the plan. There is an appeal to that, and 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.040 I do understand that. I understand that these people are 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.160 looking for a light in the darkness, and I really 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.120 can't pretend that I'm not doing the same thing totally 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:38.040 through my writing on this. I need something to cling to, 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.480 and I can't blame anybody for feeling that way too. 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.080 I mean, that's why I feel like your project, though, 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.560 it comes from a much better and like healthier place, 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:50.400 because you are looking at this like decline in nationwide 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.840 American sanity and trying to do something about it, even 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.600 if that's just a documentation, and then writing about it 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.280 and trying to explain to people and like help help 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:02.960 people understand where the psyche of the country is. And 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.919 I think part of what makes me so interested in 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.359 your project is that, like it reminds me a little 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:13.080 bit of people who started studying qan on, you know, 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.240 back in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.560 back when it's just this little, cute, small thing, and 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:23.159 then you fast forward years later they realize they've actually 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:28.600 done some extremely important like work documenting of phenomenon that 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.000 is shaping the trajectory of our country. 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:32.400 And I don't know. 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.639 If alt National Park Service is going to evolve in 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:42.840 the same way. But I think the slow embrace of 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:47.320 this sort of conspirator worl thinking among decently sized like 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.280 chunks of the democratic base, I think is very notable 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.360 and work Like what you're doing, I think actually has 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.399 a really important place in trying to like map where 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:00.560 our country might might be headed. 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:03.080 And yeah, in a few years it might. 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.840 Somehow it might sturn out to be super important when 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:08.639 the Libs finally do their own j six. 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:13.880 So yeah, I mean, I to be honest, I would 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.920 be very happy if this whole thing petered out. Sure, 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.080 you know, I would be very happy if one day 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:24.159 the account just stops posting and there is no years 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.480 long continuation with this like there was was something like 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.560 you or not, you know. But I do think ALTNPS 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:33.440 is a part of a broader ecosystem of this blue 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.159 and on world. And you know, I do agree with 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.280 what you said earlier that bluanon is a phrase that 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.040 I think does get overused. Yeah, that there are some 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:45.359 things that are just normal people, you know, expressing their 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.800 political opinions that kind of gets derided as oh blue 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.919 and not, But it really is just people being normal 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.600 or people being extremely online, but ALTENPS is a part 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.119 of a bigger world of this sort of vaguely left 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.040 wing conspiracism. You know, I'm seeing a lot of crossover 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:05.320 between people who post in reply to all t enps 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.439 and people who have this sort of mantra about Trump 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.440 that he wasn't shot, he didn't win, he's on the list. 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.199 And you see that exact phrase, you know, post it 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.760 over and over and over again. It's in pictures, it's 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.439 in memes, it's in people's posts. And I think all 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.240 t NPS is a part of that. I think they're 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.720 emblematic of that. Yeah, that you are not immune to 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:26.880 conspiratorial think. 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:31.000 We are not better than that now, and they're facilitating 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.280 I think that mindset. I think liberals became so susceptible 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.720 to it because they had this conception that they're immune 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.640 to it, that that conspiracy thinking is something that only 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.200 exists on the political right. Yes, that's for other people, 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:43.520 And this is part. 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:44.399 Of what I'm going to write about it. 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.160 Like in general, but like the way that contessus reality 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:52.240 was like sheared down so heavily during the first Rump administration, 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:54.760 and like parts of the body of administration by people 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.439 on the right that like, weakened this notion we have 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:01.160 of Concetta's reality that then liberals kind of got blindsided 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.919 by when events happened that were hard to understand or 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:09.000 felt so surreal or like bombastic, that it allowed a 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.200 split that was already there to grow into a pretty 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.600 wide opening where you now believe that major historical events 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:21.199 are fake and staged, that an election is stolen. And 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.879 you're like, what, what does this remind you of? 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:24.000 Like? 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.679 What, Yes, one of the things you're saying remind you 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.320 of is in this part of why you're against the 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:31.040 Trump movement in the first place. 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.760 Yeah, And I think God help you if you ever 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.840 try and point that out. Yeah, you know, to a 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.320 lot of the people in these replies that just like, hey, guys, 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.199 doesn't a lot of this smell a lot like you 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:44.960 or not? You know, doesn't this sound a lot like 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.040 the way people talked about the twenty twenty election? You know, 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.520 doesn't this smell the same way? And that is when 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.760 people in especially in all t NPS's replies, will go nuclear. 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:56.280 You know. 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.560 There, I've seen some incredible dog biles in response people 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:03.199 bringing this up, even if it's if it's anadyte you know, 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.440 and even if it is just hey guys, just a reminder, 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:06.879 I think this is something that we should you know, 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.320 maybe I'll take with a grain of salt. People go nuts, 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.680 you know. They they need to believe it needs to 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.919 be real and it needs to be unquestioned and that 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.879 there can be no good faith questioning of this idea. 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:22.960 Do you know what else is an unquestioned truth that 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:25.160 we have to go on one more ad break before 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.480 we return to conclude our discussion on. 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:29.320 The Alt National Park Service. 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.800 It's easy to see how they reached just a certain 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:46.760 like ceiling on how much they can just numbers post 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:49.760 and have that be a reliable method of engagement that 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.200 they've started to like experiment with with with different types 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:54.280 of posting to see what makes people stick, who can 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:56.840 help help with engagement over a long period of time 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:00.240 instead of just like rocketing to like virality first but 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:04.159 then having a stable audience. And now they're basically a 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.840 news aggregator account but deceptively framing where they are getting 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:10.080 their news from. 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:14.399 Yeah, they are a news aggregator account with massive caveats. 0:22:14.720 --> 0:22:17.399 Yeah, yes, well, I mean I think most news aggregator 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:18.639 accounts are actually bad. 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:20.119 Yeah, I'd agree. 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.520 This is something we saw in twenty twenty, was how 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.720 unreliable news aggregator accounts were and how much of a 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:30.159