1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: Seventeen two nineteen, two hundred and twenty seven. General public, 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: please disregard as this podcast as fighting battles on multiple fronts. 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 2: This podcast is it could happen here, and I'm Garrison Davis. 5 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: Last episode, I talked with Miowong about the trajectory of 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 2: liberal conspiracy theories, specifically throughout the last ten years, from 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 2: Russia Gate to Trump's staged assassination and twenty twenty four 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: election denial. This resurgence of liberal conspiracism has been dubbed Bluanon. 9 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: If you want more background on that, go listen to 10 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: our previous episode. But this episode is about a new 11 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: evolution of bluing on and possibly the most Qanani iteration 12 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: we've seen yet. The Alt National Park Service, a social 13 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 2: media engagement farming account that gained traction on Blue Sky 14 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: and Facebook last February. In March admidst cuts to the 15 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: Park Service from the Trump administration. This account gained followers 16 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: by posing as a group of anti Trump dissidents from 17 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 2: within the Park Service, and soon enough it inspired a 18 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 2: collection of other alt government accounts like Alt CDC, Alt Nih, 19 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: Alt Yellowstone, and Alt Noah. The original Alt National Park 20 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: Service account basically never talks about the park Service itself, 21 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: but during the first few months of Trump's second term, 22 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: the account started going viral by posting sequences of random 23 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 2: numbers as ostensibly coded messages to other hashtag resistance fighters, 24 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: though the account has since experimented with, altered and refined 25 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: their engagement strategies. To hear more about that and how 26 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: Alt National Park Service fits into this trend of liberal 27 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories, I talked with someone who has spent the 28 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: past few months documenting and writing about this account. The 29 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: person who runs the alt Watcher account on Blue Sky 30 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: and writes about their research on the blog Dispatches from 31 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: the Online Void. So here's that interview. 32 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: My name's Jack. I'm the user behind the account alt 33 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: Watcher on Blue Sky, and I've been following the Alt 34 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: National Park Service for about six months, just documenting what 35 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 3: they do and how they steal from journalists and how 36 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 3: they're driving a lot of people insane, including me. 37 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: What is the Alt National Park Service or first, what 38 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: does the Alt National Park Service claim to be? 39 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an important difference. The All National Park Service 40 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 3: claims to be a loose affiliation of a non former 41 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 3: parks employees that are either still employed by the Park 42 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: Service and kind of working behind the scenes, or who 43 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: were fired or laid off by the Trump administration and 44 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: are now part of a nationwide coalition to resist the government. 45 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 3: That's what they claim to be. What they really are 46 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 3: is just a Facebook shit posting account. We're not sure 47 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 3: if it's one person behind it or if it's a group. 48 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: It's remarkably hard to find out anything about the person 49 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 3: who is behind the account, who they are, where they are, 50 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 3: and how they started this. But what they do most 51 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 3: of the time is repost the work of journalists, directly 52 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 3: plagiarize from news outlets, and post these vaguely conspiratorial things 53 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: online to try to whip up engagement from their followers. 54 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: I first became aware of this back in probably March 55 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five, specifically when on Blue Sky they 56 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: just started posting a lot of numbers. Yes, I was 57 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: aware that this account was created, like in the aftermath 58 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: of some some like Doge related cuts to the Park 59 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: Service or like anti Dei, anti woke stuff, And then 60 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: this account popped up claiming to be you know, like 61 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: resistance from inside to people who watch politics like seriously 62 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 2: for their jobs. Was very clear that this was not 63 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: a legitimate organization, and then they just started posting numbers 64 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: sequences of numbers along with other cryptic messages, and this 65 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: like immediately starts hitting like the q Andon bells. Back 66 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: in July of twenty twenty four, there's a Washington Post 67 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: article about the Trump assassination conspiracy theories, but specifically it 68 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,239 Speaker 2: was it was a I think it was an opinion 69 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: piece critical of terming liberal conspiracy. 70 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 4: Theories as as quote unquote bleuing on. 71 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 2: They said, quote the main similarity of QAnon and bluing 72 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 2: on is that they rhyme. And for a while I 73 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 2: kind of understood this criticism and agree with parts of it, 74 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: because there was there was structural differences between some of 75 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: how you know, liberals or like quote unquote the left 76 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: engage in conspiratorial thinking, and like the function of chewing 77 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: on the numbers think started to really mess with that 78 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: analysis because then you started to see the actual like 79 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: methodology and like the ideological function of q andon start 80 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 2: to get replicated in what is most likely just like 81 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: engagement farming, but for the people who are following this 82 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 2: account and engaging with it, and like it becomes like 83 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 2: an important part of their life and their their perception 84 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: of like hashtag resistance. And I think that's where blue 85 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: and on actually proved itself as a term, was in 86 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: March of twenty five, I guess, let's talk about the numbers. 87 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: You know what I would love I would love to 88 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 3: talk about the numbers are also what stood out to me, 89 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 3: and that is why I ended up making my account 90 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 3: and diving into all this. During the pandemic, I got 91 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: obsessed with quana, you know, as as just what is this? 92 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 4: A lot of people did. 93 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: A lot of people did, you know, Look, pandemic did 94 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: a lot of crazy things to us. Some people learned 95 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 3: to knit, some people got good at baking. I got 96 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 3: really learning about q and on and I am. I'm 97 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 3: a huge fan of the QAA podcast. I listened to 98 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 3: that constantly, And as soon as I saw altonps post 99 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 3: one of the numbers, I realized, I'm reading this in 100 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 3: their que voice. Yeah, their their voice modulated voice that 101 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 3: sounds like this whenever they would post. And I started 102 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 3: reading all the numbers post that way, and just like 103 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 3: you said, something clicked and I went, oh this is oh, 104 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 3: I see what they're doing. Here. Yeah, and they've posted 105 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: numbers many times. I've got my giant spreadsheet pulled up 106 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 3: here and I think they've posted something like thirty numbers. 107 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 3: It's been a while since they've done it. But the 108 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 3: thing that really gave the game away from me was 109 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 3: during one of these numbers posts, they posted some random 110 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 3: number and then replied to themselves and said, for discussion, 111 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 3: what do you think these numbers mean? And I said, oh, 112 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 3: I see what's happening. 113 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 4: Here, kind of giving away the game there exactly. 114 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 115 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 3: This is not a group of government insiders communicating with 116 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 3: their coalition. This is the user behind a Facebook account 117 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: realizing in real time that they've stumbled on like a 118 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: gold mine for engagement. Yeah, oh, we can just do 119 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 3: this and people will do the work for us, and 120 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 3: we're just going to say that out. 121 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: Loud and throughout. Like March and April, their count just 122 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: like rocketed in popularity. Yes, I've not actually looked on 123 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: their Facebook account. Besides, like the post that you've shared, 124 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: I've only seen them on Blue Sky. What is the 125 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: difference of their presence on Facebook versus like blue Sky 126 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: Blue Sky. 127 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: I think there at something like nine hundred k on 128 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: Facebook the last time I checked, it was about four 129 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 3: point three million. 130 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 4: Geez. 131 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, they are a massive presence on Facebook, and they've 132 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 3: been monetizing their posts recently. There have been sponsored content 133 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 3: on Facebook leading to their page. 134 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: This is where I think one of the differences from 135 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 2: like how Q and unfunctioned and all National Park Service, 136 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: because you know, Q was not monetizing posts on the. 137 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 3: Chances I would have loved to see him try. That'd 138 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 3: be really funny. 139 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 2: I do not see like this account existing as like 140 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: as a sort of operation to influence the political trajectory 141 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 2: of the United States the same way that the qan 142 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: on account at least evolved in that capacity. Even if 143 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: it started off as like a shit posting thing exactly, 144 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: it certainly evolved with more of a malicious intent. The 145 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: people behind you know, Q posting. 146 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a big difference between them, is 147 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 3: that this is straightforwardly an engagement far. 148 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, using some those tactics, especially like early on, but 149 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: for a very simple reason, and that's that's making money 150 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: on the Internet. 151 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 4: Like everybody is trying to do it. 152 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: It's just like internet hustle culture stuff with no grappling 153 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 2: with like the consequences that has for like the psyche 154 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,599 Speaker 2: of people who engage with your contents. 155 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 3: Exactly, and the psyche of people who engage with this 156 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 3: content is really what keeps me coming back to this project, 157 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 3: because that is the real harm I see here. Like 158 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 3: the online drifters are a diamond, doesn't you know people 159 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 3: who sell stuff online? It's everywhere, it's inescapable. What's unique 160 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 3: about alt NPS is that they are trying to make 161 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 3: money on convincing people that this is really you know, 162 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 3: they're not just selling hashtag resist shirts or whatever. They're 163 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 3: trying to get money out of people by convincing them 164 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 3: that they really are part of a shadow resistance against 165 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 3: against Trump, and that you can buy their shirts or 166 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 3: you can straightforwardly just send them money for things like 167 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 3: their all Junior Ranger program that they've said they're starting, 168 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 3: and if you send them a dollar, you're helping fund 169 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 3: that program. And it's totally real. And the fact that 170 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 3: they didn't mention it for seven straight months after initially 171 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 3: announcing it is something you definitely shouldn't worry about. 172 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 2: Do you know what else you definitely shouldn't worry about? 173 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: This short at break so they have face pushback for 174 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 2: their numbers posting, but they have found a way to 175 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: justify it publicly, to talk about like how they've framed 176 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: the posting of just like four numbers, two numbers, and 177 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 2: like the sort of like defense of the account that 178 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: it plays. 179 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was this maybe says something about me, But 180 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 3: that was maybe the post that made me the angriest 181 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 3: of anything they've done, because I have a deep seated 182 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 3: reaction to feeling like one of the thinks I'm stupid, 183 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: And all I could think is do you think I'm 184 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 3: an idiot? When I saw their reaction to this, Because 185 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,359 Speaker 3: we are often criticized for the numbers we post online. 186 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 3: We can't tell you everything. Sorry, And then they went 187 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 3: on this big half explanation about stingrays and cell site simulators. 188 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: Cell site simulators. 189 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, but they didn't explain what those actually do. They 190 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 3: did not explicitly claim they were being surveilled by one, 191 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 3: and they didn't explain why the existence of stingrays and 192 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: cell site simulators means that they should. 193 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: Do all this on Facebook instead posting numbers does not 194 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 2: bypass the security concerns posed by the presence of a 195 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: cell site simulator. No, because you're still posting publicly on 196 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: the Internet. 197 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 4: That doesn't matter at all. 198 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're pulling something the other of your asse that 199 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: sounds technical, that's going to trick your average boomer And 200 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 2: maybe you know three out of five gen X people 201 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: who are scrolling Facebook slash Blue Sky and like that's 202 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: all they need to do. But for anyone who knows 203 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 2: what a cell site simulator is or how like internet 204 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: communications works, it's very very clear that this is just 205 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: like completely bullshit. 206 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 3: It's completely bullshit because you're right that this is all 207 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 3: they need to do. They just need to deflect. And 208 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 3: I think that's what stood out to me about this 209 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 3: post in particular, is that it showed me that the 210 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 3: person or people behind all the time ps have a 211 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 3: genuine level of pr skill. You know, they have a 212 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 3: certain level of what I think is a real skill 213 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: at deflection public relations and being able to spin what 214 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 3: they're saying. You know, that's a genuine skill. It's a 215 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 3: shame that it's being applied to this instead of, I mean, 216 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 3: anything else, But that is a skill that they have 217 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 3: that they're able to deploy in defense of their conspiratorial posting. 218 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 2: The other thing that they post in relation to the 219 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: numbers is there one time forward catchphrase general public can disregard? 220 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: Don't I talk about the context of those posts. 221 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 3: Yes, those were replies that they would make to the 222 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 3: numbers posts, usually to the numbers posts, but occasionally to 223 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 3: just some other cryptic thing they would post. They would 224 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 3: post their numbers, say forty four, and then they would 225 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: reply to themselves saying general public can disregard, or they'd 226 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 3: say please disregard if you are a member of the 227 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 3: general public. And there were a lot of people online 228 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 3: who saw that and thought, oh, that must mean it's 229 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 3: a code. It has to be real. 230 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: They're engaged in some sort of like secret agent spy work, 231 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 2: and this is very really important. Yeah. 232 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I would see a lot of people push 233 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 3: back on any criticism that the account would get for 234 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 3: this by saying things like, it's code for a reason. 235 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 3: You know, guys, they're speaking in code. Don't try to 236 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 3: crack the code. It's not for us, you know, this 237 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 3: is for the coalition. And whenever anybody would say I 238 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 3: don't think this is real, or like any of the 239 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 3: things we've talked about about, why this doesn't make sense, 240 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: they would instantly be accused of being a right wing 241 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: infiltrator or a troll or a MAGA spy or something 242 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 3: like that. You know, there can be no actual criticism 243 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: of the account. There can only be infiltration. 244 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that does have more like Q overlap, I 245 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: suppose absolutely. 246 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 4: I don't know. 247 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: It's odd because like throughout through writing about all this 248 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: like bluing on stuff. As much as this stuff is 249 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: a legitimate problem, like which it is, it's just a 250 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 2: symptom of a larger political problem in America, and the 251 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: people engaged with it, if anything, are kind of victims 252 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: as well as like perpetrators. And like this was the 253 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: same thing with like Q and on, where like your 254 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: average person engaged with it as bad as it is 255 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: and some of the stuff that they might like say 256 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: or do, I also just feel bad for the people involved. 257 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 4: And it's this same thing with this. 258 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: As annoying as this kind of like lib slop can be, 259 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: the people who have to have to believe in something 260 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: like this in order to like keep going, that is 261 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: kind of like a tragedy in a way, and this 262 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: is obviously is serving some important psychological function for them. 263 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally agree, And I think that's that sadness. 264 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 3: I think is What keeps me wanting to engage with this. 265 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 3: You know, when I look at this and I see 266 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 3: alt NPS trying to get people to buy their T 267 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: shirts or just farm engagement, that's not remarkable to me. 268 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: That's normal. Yeah, that happens on the internet all the time. 269 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 3: What keeps me coming back to wanting to fight this 270 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 3: and wanting to document all this is the people I 271 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 3: see in the replies. Yeah, the people who say that 272 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 3: alt NPS brings them so much hope. It's what's keeping 273 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 3: them from falling into despair. And it's not that I 274 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 3: want to take that away from them, It's that I 275 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 3: don't like that their need for that is being used. 276 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like a predatory mode of trying to 277 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: capital that. 278 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, the account is trying to capitalize on people's 279 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 3: need for hope. You know, they need to believe that 280 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 3: there is someone fighting for them because in a lot 281 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 3: of ways, it doesn't feel like anyone is. You know, 282 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: it feels like our politicians are ineffectual, our institutions are crumbling. 283 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 3: We need someone to be there. We need ironically, we 284 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 3: need patriots to be in control. Yeah, we need to 285 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 3: trust the plan. There is an appeal to that, and 286 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: I do understand that. I understand that these people are 287 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 3: looking for a light in the darkness, and I really 288 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 3: can't pretend that I'm not doing the same thing totally 289 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 3: through my writing on this. I need something to cling to, 290 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 3: and I can't blame anybody for feeling that way too. 291 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: I mean, that's why I feel like your project, though, 292 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: it comes from a much better and like healthier place, 293 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: because you are looking at this like decline in nationwide 294 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 2: American sanity and trying to do something about it, even 295 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: if that's just a documentation, and then writing about it 296 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: and trying to explain to people and like help help 297 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: people understand where the psyche of the country is. And 298 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 2: I think part of what makes me so interested in 299 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 2: your project is that, like it reminds me a little 300 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: bit of people who started studying qan on, you know, 301 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 2: back in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 302 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 2: back when it's just this little, cute, small thing, and 303 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 2: then you fast forward years later they realize they've actually 304 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: done some extremely important like work documenting of phenomenon that 305 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 2: is shaping the trajectory of our country. 306 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 4: And I don't know. 307 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 2: If alt National Park Service is going to evolve in 308 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: the same way. But I think the slow embrace of 309 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: this sort of conspirator worl thinking among decently sized like 310 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: chunks of the democratic base, I think is very notable 311 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 2: and work Like what you're doing, I think actually has 312 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 2: a really important place in trying to like map where 313 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: our country might might be headed. 314 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 4: And yeah, in a few years it might. 315 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: Somehow it might sturn out to be super important when 316 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 2: the Libs finally do their own j six. 317 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, I to be honest, I would 318 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 3: be very happy if this whole thing petered out. Sure, 319 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 3: you know, I would be very happy if one day 320 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 3: the account just stops posting and there is no years 321 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 3: long continuation with this like there was was something like 322 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 3: you or not, you know. But I do think ALTNPS 323 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 3: is a part of a broader ecosystem of this blue 324 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 3: and on world. And you know, I do agree with 325 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: what you said earlier that bluanon is a phrase that 326 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: I think does get overused. Yeah, that there are some 327 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 3: things that are just normal people, you know, expressing their 328 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 3: political opinions that kind of gets derided as oh blue 329 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 3: and not, But it really is just people being normal 330 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 3: or people being extremely online, but ALTENPS is a part 331 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 3: of a bigger world of this sort of vaguely left 332 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 3: wing conspiracism. You know, I'm seeing a lot of crossover 333 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 3: between people who post in reply to all t enps 334 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 3: and people who have this sort of mantra about Trump 335 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 3: that he wasn't shot, he didn't win, he's on the list. 336 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 3: And you see that exact phrase, you know, post it 337 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 3: over and over and over again. It's in pictures, it's 338 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 3: in memes, it's in people's posts. And I think all 339 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 3: t NPS is a part of that. I think they're 340 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 3: emblematic of that. Yeah, that you are not immune to 341 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 3: conspiratorial think. 342 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: We are not better than that now, and they're facilitating 343 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: I think that mindset. I think liberals became so susceptible 344 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 2: to it because they had this conception that they're immune 345 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 2: to it, that that conspiracy thinking is something that only 346 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 2: exists on the political right. Yes, that's for other people, 347 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: And this is part. 348 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 4: Of what I'm going to write about it. 349 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 2: Like in general, but like the way that contessus reality 350 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: was like sheared down so heavily during the first Rump administration, 351 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: and like parts of the body of administration by people 352 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 2: on the right that like, weakened this notion we have 353 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 2: of Concetta's reality that then liberals kind of got blindsided 354 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 2: by when events happened that were hard to understand or 355 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: felt so surreal or like bombastic, that it allowed a 356 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: split that was already there to grow into a pretty 357 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 2: wide opening where you now believe that major historical events 358 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 2: are fake and staged, that an election is stolen. And 359 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 2: you're like, what, what does this remind you of? 360 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 4: Like? 361 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 2: What, Yes, one of the things you're saying remind you 362 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: of is in this part of why you're against the 363 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: Trump movement in the first place. 364 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think God help you if you ever 365 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 3: try and point that out. Yeah, you know, to a 366 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 3: lot of the people in these replies that just like, hey, guys, 367 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 3: doesn't a lot of this smell a lot like you 368 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 3: or not? You know, doesn't this sound a lot like 369 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 3: the way people talked about the twenty twenty election? You know, 370 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 3: doesn't this smell the same way? And that is when 371 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 3: people in especially in all t NPS's replies, will go nuclear. 372 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 4: You know. 373 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 3: There, I've seen some incredible dog biles in response people 374 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 3: bringing this up, even if it's if it's anadyte you know, 375 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 3: and even if it is just hey guys, just a reminder, 376 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 3: I think this is something that we should you know, 377 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 3: maybe I'll take with a grain of salt. People go nuts, 378 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 3: you know. They they need to believe it needs to 379 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 3: be real and it needs to be unquestioned and that 380 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 3: there can be no good faith questioning of this idea. 381 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 2: Do you know what else is an unquestioned truth that 382 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 2: we have to go on one more ad break before 383 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: we return to conclude our discussion on. 384 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 4: The Alt National Park Service. 385 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: It's easy to see how they reached just a certain 386 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: like ceiling on how much they can just numbers post 387 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: and have that be a reliable method of engagement that 388 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 2: they've started to like experiment with with with different types 389 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 2: of posting to see what makes people stick, who can 390 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: help help with engagement over a long period of time 391 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: instead of just like rocketing to like virality first but 392 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 2: then having a stable audience. And now they're basically a 393 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 2: news aggregator account but deceptively framing where they are getting 394 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: their news from. 395 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, they are a news aggregator account with massive caveats. 396 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, well, I mean I think most news aggregator 397 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: accounts are actually bad. 398 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd agree. 399 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: This is something we saw in twenty twenty, was how 400 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: unreliable news aggregator accounts were and how much of a 401 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 2: harm that they caused. And I see the current version 402 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 2: of all National Park Service as kind of an extension 403 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: of that taken to a slightly higher level. 404 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 4: I suppose I'm. 405 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 3: Obsessed with this, you know, I've said that a few times, 406 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 3: but I've documented what I think is most of the 407 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 3: times that they have posted a news article without attribution 408 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 3: and either just described something where they could have or 409 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 3: should have posted a link to an actual article, or 410 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 3: more more often, just copy pasting sections of an article 411 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 3: and reposting it as though they wrote it. You know, 412 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 3: those are the ones that really get me. Those are 413 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: the the aspects of their news aggregation where you say 414 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: this is just plagiarism. You know, this is just you 415 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 3: stealing verbatim from an article and acting as though you 416 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 3: wrote it, because you want your audience to think that 417 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 3: you are a government insider with all this inside information, 418 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 3: and that information like that is coming first to you, 419 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 3: not to the New York Times, not to CNN. 420 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: Even though you're just posting sections of the New York 421 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 2: Times and CNN. 422 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean they took the first I think three 423 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 3: paragraphs of an article from Wired and did it word 424 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 3: for word, didn't link to Wired, didn't say where it 425 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 3: came from, and implied that the information was being sent 426 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 3: to the rangers of the All National Park Service instead 427 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 3: of two journalists at Wired. This happens constantly, you know, 428 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 3: and every time I think, well, they've been posting more 429 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 3: links slately, they've been linking directly to actual sources of information. 430 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 3: Every time I start thinking that, they do it again. 431 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 3: You know, they steal another thing again, or they've started 432 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 3: posting to court watcher or directly to government documents in 433 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 3: what I'm thinking as an attempt to dodge accusations like 434 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 3: the one I make. Somebody in my comments described it 435 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 3: as the don't cite Wikipedia, cite Wikipedia's reference page problem. 436 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 3: They're reading an article from NPR, and rather than just saying, hey, 437 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 3: we've heard this in NPR, they're going to NPR's citation 438 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 3: of the Department of Justice and linking directly to that 439 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 3: instead to make it look like they're diligently watching government 440 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 3: court records and posting them for our benefit the moment 441 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 3: they come out, instead of just we saw this in 442 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 3: the Washington Post. 443 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: And they've been engaging this for like a few months 444 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: now with this sort of behavior. 445 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they've been doing that since January February. Yeah, 446 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 3: they've also started claiming for a while, and then they 447 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 3: stopped that. One of their sources they would list at 448 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 3: the end of their posts was an unnamed official in 449 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 3: whatever relevant government agency they were talking about. Our sources 450 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 3: include this newspaper, this website, and an unnamed Department of 451 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 3: Justice official, an unnamed Department of Education official. They suddenly 452 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 3: stopped doing that as soon as they started. There was 453 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 3: about a week or two where that was behind about 454 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 3: every post. 455 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 2: Anything else you want to add about either the existence 456 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 2: of these like alt accounts, or like any other like 457 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 2: aspect of this world you want to mention before we 458 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 2: before we close up. 459 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I do have two quick ones, and the first 460 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 3: is that among the alt accounts that you see online, 461 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 3: the Alt National Park Service is overwhelmingly the most malicious 462 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 3: and the most harmful. You know, there are may be 463 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 3: a couple others that get a little wild, that are 464 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 3: maybe a little conspiratorial. I think Alt Noah has been 465 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 3: kind of in the spotlight for that lately. But a 466 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 3: lot of them, like ALT CDC, the ALT Forest Service, 467 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 3: all these random little alt government agency accounts are pretty harmless, 468 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 3: you know. They really are just posting links to news 469 00:25:53,800 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: articles or given updates on their relevant agency. Allt Forest 470 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 3: Service mostly talks about the Forest Service. Allt CDC mostly 471 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 3: talks about the CDC. ALT NPS basically never talks about 472 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 3: the National Park Service. I think I can count on 473 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 3: one hand the times that they have said anything about 474 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 3: the parks. There was a point when I think it 475 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 3: was in the big beautiful budget bill where there were 476 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: these massive cuts being proposed to the National Park Service, 477 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: and they talked about the bill as a whole and 478 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 3: didn't mention anything about the cuts of the Park Service. 479 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 2: Well, you never know who's watching the communication channels, so 480 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: you got to be careful. There's cell site simulators out there. 481 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 3: There's cell site simulators out there. And then the second 482 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 3: thing is that I'm always very careful in my writing 483 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 3: and in my posts to emphasize that the people who 484 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 3: followed this account are not the problem the account itself is. 485 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 3: You know, I always want to make sure to have 486 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 3: a lot of empathy for people who follow this account, 487 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 3: because I understand why they did. I understand the hope 488 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 3: they're looking for, and I never want to do what 489 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 3: I say. See some people do in the replies to 490 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 3: Altenps's posts, which is dunking on their followers. You know, 491 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 3: how do you rubes believe this? Do you idiots still 492 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 3: think this is real? I never want to do that 493 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 3: because that doesn't help anyone. What that does is make 494 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 3: them dig in, It makes them double down. So I 495 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 3: always want to make sure to treat the followers of 496 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 3: these accounts with respect, you know, treat them with empathy, 497 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 3: talk to them like a person. Yeah, And that's how 498 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 3: I've managed to get a few people to get out. 499 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 3: I've managed to have people tell me that it was 500 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 3: through my writing and other people's work on this topic 501 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 3: that they were able to get out, They were able 502 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 3: to disengage from this world of fake spies and code numbers. 503 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 3: And I think that matters. I think that that helps 504 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 3: with every little bit we do, And it starts by 505 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 3: just being nice to people, just being kind to people 506 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 3: who are looking for hope in the world we live in. 507 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: Where can people find your work both on social media 508 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: and then also you're writing. 509 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 3: Me on Blue Sky at Altwatcher dot bsky dot social 510 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 3: and I am unfortunately still on substack at my name 511 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 3: it's Jajoyce Lynch dot substack dot com. And also look 512 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 3: for dispatches from the Online Void is the name of 513 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 3: the blog. 514 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 2: There should absolutely be more people reading your dispatches from 515 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 2: the Online Void. There is some very very solid work 516 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: just straightly documenting the phenomenon that we've been talking about 517 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 2: this episode and specifically the Alt National Park Service. 518 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 3: Well, I really appreciate it. 519 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fantastic, very like non editorialized, just showing you 520 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: what's happening. 521 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 4: Extremely we'll put together. 522 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 3: Well, thanks, thanks, and nice for you to say. 523 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 2: Thanks again to Jack for talking with me about Alt 524 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: National Park Service. I strongly recommend people seek out his research, 525 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: both on Dispatches from the Online Void and Blue Sky. 526 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 2: Before I close this episode, I want to remind everybody 527 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: that you two are not immune to propaganda. This past weekend, 528 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: the internet has been a buzz with rumors and speculation 529 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,719 Speaker 2: that Trump died over the weekend or was actively dying, 530 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 2: and there's been attempts to cover it up, when in 531 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: fact he just went on a brief Labor day weekend holiday. 532 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: People were sharing ai altered images to make Trump look 533 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 2: more sickly, and were speculating about road closures around Walter 534 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 2: Reed Medical Center, sharing a map with roads blocked off, 535 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: but in fact, there were no irregular road closures, and 536 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: this map of supposed closures that was spreading online just 537 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: showed old security gates. People concocted elaborate theories that Putin 538 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 2: poisoned Trump during their last meeting, and that when the 539 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 2: quote unquote president was supposed to give an announcement on 540 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: Tuesday afternoon, it would be Trump resigning for health reasons, 541 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: or Vance would come out and announced Trump died and 542 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 2: he is now the president. And sure enough, come Tuesday afternoon, 543 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 2: Trump appeared perfectly normal for a press conference. Even in 544 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 2: the lead up to the press conference, I saw people 545 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 2: continuing these conspiracy theories with sometimes a tat of irony. 546 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: But as the press conference got delayed an hour, there 547 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 2: was more and more speculation about Trump's declining health and yeah, 548 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 2: he is an old man, but he is not going 549 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: to drop dead this weekend. This isn't true. This is 550 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 2: a copium strategy, and the way people have been talking 551 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 2: about it is very similar to the liberal conspiracy theories 552 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: that I've been reading about these past few weeks, and 553 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: as fun as it can be to speculate about a 554 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: president's health, as many people did last time we had 555 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: a geriatric president when was that, oh, last year? But 556 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: as much fun as it is, things can quickly spiral 557 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: out of your conspiratorial control, even when your percipasion is 558 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 2: from the safety of ironic detachment. I'll talk a little 559 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: bit more about Trump's imminent death theories on this week's 560 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 2: episode of Executive Disorder, but until then, just remember you 561 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 2: are not immune to propaganda. 562 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 563 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 564 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 565 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 566 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen here, listed directly 567 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.