1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from house 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast Time 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: to Glean a Charcoalboarding and I and today we start 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: our story off the coast of southwestern Spain, near the 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: port of Ulva on April nine. A local fisherman named 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: Jose Antonio ray Ma Maria was out in a little 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: skiff that morning trying to spot sardines for the larger 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: fishing boats. But what he spotted instead was a kind 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: of lumpy object just floating on the water, which he 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: at first mistook for a dead porpoise. Once he got closer, though, 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: he realized it was the dead body of a man, 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: floating face down. The man was wearing a yellow life 13 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: jacket over a trench coat, boots and a British uniform, 14 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: and there was a black briefcase attached to him by 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: a chain. The body was in pretty rough shape, as 16 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: you would imagine, it smelled terrible, and the face was rotting. 17 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: The fisherman on the larger boat had no interest in 18 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: helping them out. They did not want to get the body, 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: so Maria dragged the body aboard his tiny boat and 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: rowed it to shore, where he got help dragging the 21 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: body into the sand, and authorities kind of took over 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: from there. After this gruesome discovery, Maria just went back 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: about his business. This was, after all, World War two, 24 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: and although Spain was officially neutral, the fisherman probably just 25 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: assumed this was some sort of war casualty that had 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: washed up to their shores. But what he didn't realize 27 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: is that he had just set in motion what the 28 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 1: BBC has referred to as quote the most successful wartime 29 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: deception ever attempted. It was known as Operation Mincemeat, and 30 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: it was set into motion by the British to fool 31 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: the Nazis, and it's said to have changed the course 32 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: of the war. The dead man, whose personal effects identified 33 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: him as Major William Martin, was carrying documents that ultimately 34 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: convinced Hitler that the Allies were going to attack one 35 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: place when they really had designs on another. But how 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: did this plan work? And why was it so effective? 37 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: And who was that dead guy? So we're going to 38 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: look at all of those things, and we should mention 39 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: here that Ben McIntyre's book Operation Mints Neat helps us 40 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: answer a lot of these questions on the way through. 41 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: It's a source for a lot of the details that 42 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: we include in this two part episode, So there's a 43 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,119 Speaker 1: lot to look forward to here. And if that name 44 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: sounds familiar, it's because we just consulted Ben McIntyre's book 45 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: on Adam Worth for our Napoleon of Crime, the Real 46 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: Professor Moriarty episode, So he's popping up all over the place. 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: You're coming like the Queen Victoria of authors, Queen Victoria 48 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: of historians. Before we get into talking about Operation mince 49 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: Meat specifically, first we need to talk a little bit 50 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: about what was going on worth World War two at 51 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: the time and why a deception plan like Operation mints 52 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: Meat would have been necessary in the first place. In 53 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: late ninety two, the Allies had invaded and six fessfully 54 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: taking control of North Africa from the Germans and an 55 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: offensive known as Operation Torch, and this was a real 56 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: blow to the Germans, not least of all because it 57 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: put the Allies just across the Mediterranean from Hitler's fortress, 58 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: as Nazi occupied Europe was sometimes called, and so the 59 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: Germans began speculating about where in southern Europe the Allies 60 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: would attack next. In an article for The New Yorker 61 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: and Malcolm Gladwell outlines a few of the possibilities. You know, 62 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: there was Sardino, which wasn't defended that heavily, Plus it 63 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: was a good spot from which to bomb southern Germany. 64 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: But the problem with it was that you couldn't land 65 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: a whole lot of ground troops there at once. There 66 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: was also Greece and the Balkans. Greece was vulnerable, and 67 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: the Balkans supplied Germans with raw materials for their war efforts, 68 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: so that could also be a huge blow to them 69 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: and a good contender for for a potential site. But 70 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: according to McIntyre, the obvious choice for the next Allied 71 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: invasion was really Sicily, which was located, of course at 72 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: the toe of Italy's boot, and this had the advantage 73 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: of being close enough in proximity to North Africa that 74 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: the Allies would be able to use short range fighter 75 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: plane and invading Sicily also opened up the possibility of 76 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: taking Italy out of the war, which would of course 77 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: be an enormous blow to the Germans and setting the 78 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: stage ultimately to invade France. So on January twenty three, 79 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt jointly approved the invasion 80 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: of Sicily, which was known as Operation Husky and would 81 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: be the next big offensive for them. The problem though, 82 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: was that if Sicily was such an obvious choice for 83 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: an Allied invasion, it was probably going to be obvious 84 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: to the Access Powers as well, and if Hitler anticipated 85 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: their move and had the chance to concentrate more troops 86 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: in Sicily before they got there, things could turn out 87 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: really bad for the Allies. And that's where the need 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: for deception comes in. Yeah, the Allies had to somehow 89 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: convince their opponents that they were going to do something 90 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: completely different from what they were actually going to do 91 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: if they were going to have a fighting chance here. 92 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: One plan created for this purpose was Operation Barkley, which 93 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: basically aimed to convince the Germans that the Allies were 94 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: going to attack Greece, Sardinia and Southern France instead of Sicily. 95 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: And this plan was implemented in several ways, including creating 96 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: a fake army and the Eastern Mediterranean, having double agents 97 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: spread false information around, creating fake radio traffic, and recruiting 98 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: Greek interpreters and officers, among other things. But back in London, 99 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: a couple of British intelligence officers were working on something 100 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: a bit more unusual. Yeah, that's an understatement. So the 101 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: plan that was being hatched in London actually had its 102 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: roots in a top secret memo known as the Trout Memo, 103 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: which was distributed in nineteen thirty nine by Admiral John Godfrey, 104 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: who was Britain's Director of Naval Intelligence, and by his 105 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: personal assistant, Lieutenant Commander Ian Fleming, who of course went 106 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: on to write the James Bond novel. According to McIntyre, 107 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: Fleming had a real knack for intelligence planning. It was 108 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: always coming up with these really imaginative, sometimes pretty cookie 109 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: or crazy ideas for deceiving or outsmarting the enemy, and 110 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: it's thought that he had a very heavy hand in 111 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: the Trout Memo. The memo essentially contained fifty one suggestions 112 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: for tricking the Germans by introducing erroneous ideas into their heads. 113 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: Many were outlandish, some maybe not so much. Ideas ranged 114 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: from things like distributing messages in bottles from a fictitious 115 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: U boat Captain kersen Hitler's Reich, to distributing false information 116 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: through fake copies of the newspaper. But number twenty eight 117 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: on the list is the one that interests us. And 118 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: that one was entitled quote a suggestion, not a very 119 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: nice one, and it read quote The following suggestion is 120 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: used in a book by Basil Thompson. The corpse, dressed 121 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: as an airman with dispatches in his pockets, could be 122 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: dropped onto the coast, supposedly from a parachute that had failed. 123 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: I understand there is no difficulty in obtaining corpses at 124 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: the Naval hospital, but of course it would have to 125 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: be a fresh one, so that outlines what's going to 126 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: happen here. But the Basil Thompson book mentioned was called 127 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: The Milliner's Hat Mystery. And Thompson himself had been the 128 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: head of Scotland Yards Criminal Investigation Division and made his 129 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: name as a spy catcher during World War One. He 130 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: also wrote twelve detective novels which weren't really that memorable. 131 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: But Fleming, the important guy here, had just read them 132 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: all devoured them. And that's the sort of spy novelist 133 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: connection we're looking at. Yeah, it's interesting. McEntyre points out 134 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: the spy novelist connection between Fleming and with Basil Thompson here. 135 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: Both of them were both spies and then later became novelists, 136 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: or simultaneously became novelists, we should say, and it's almost 137 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: as if with you know, this connection tells us, it's 138 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: almost as if you needed that imagination, the same imagination 139 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: needed to create a novel could create a great spy plan. 140 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: But the Trout memo kind of hung around British intelligence circles, 141 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: but no one really did anything with suggestion number twenty 142 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: eight for several years until a man named Charles Christopher 143 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: Chumbley came into the equation. Chumley was a twenty five 144 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: year old flight lieutenant in the Royal Air Force, seconded 145 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: two and MY five the Security Service. He couldn't fly 146 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: because it was bad eyesight, so that was a big 147 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: disappointment to him. But he was also the secretary of 148 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: the twenty Committee, which was the top secret group in 149 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: charge of overseeing double agents. So Chumley was this really tall, 150 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: kind of awkward looking guy, very eccentric, but much like Fleming, 151 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: he was said to possess a really great imaginative mind, 152 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: especially when it came to intelligence planning, which was the 153 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,479 Speaker 1: important thing to be great at here. Even before Operation 154 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: Husky got underway, though, Chumley had seen the trial memo 155 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: and he had come up with his own plan, which 156 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: he presented to the twenty Committee in October two. He 157 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: called it the Trojan Horse, which was quote a plan 158 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: for introducing documents of a highly secret nature into the 159 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: hands of the enemy and um In this plan he 160 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: outlined how they'd get a body from one of the 161 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: London hospitals, they dress it up in an Army, Navy 162 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: or Air Force uniform, and they'd put these fake secret 163 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: documents into a pocket. Then they would fill the lungs 164 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: up with water and drop the body by plane in 165 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: some place where currents would eventually bring it into enemy territory. 166 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: He goes on to say that, quote, while the courier 167 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: cannot be sure to get through, if he does succeed, 168 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: information in the form of the documents can be of 169 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: a far more secret nature than it would be possible 170 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: to introduce through any normal b one a channel. And 171 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: that's far more secret, of course, because a dead body 172 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: can't be forced to reveal anything like a living person can. 173 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: So that's kind of what he meant, like meant by that. 174 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: So again to some people, this might sound kind of outlandish, 175 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 1: kind of crazy, but Chumley had good reason to think 176 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: that this would work because a similar real life situation 177 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: had actually presented itself during the British invasion of North Africa. 178 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: The precedent exactly, a British plane had crashed off of 179 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: Spain's Atlantic coast and everyone was killed. A couple of 180 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: the passengers who washed ashore were carrying information about the 181 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: North African operation, including the date of the attack, wireless 182 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: messages that the British intercepted, because of course they were 183 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: very worried about this, so they were trying to listen 184 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: into the Nazi chatter. So messages they intercepted after the 185 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: fact indicated that the Germans did get some info from that, 186 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: but fortunately for the British, the Germans ignored it. Ironically, 187 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: they thought the whole thing might be a trick. They 188 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: thought it was a deception, even though it for real. 189 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: But this precedent did tell the British a couple of things. First, 190 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: it told them that Spain, although it was officially neutral, 191 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: could be counted upon to path on info like a 192 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: dead body with letters paths on info like that to 193 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: the Nazis. And then set and lee after their loss 194 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: in North Africa, if the Nazis got this kind of 195 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: information again, they might be more likely to believe it 196 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: this time. So the twenty Committee, though they weren't entirely 197 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: convinced this plan would work, they were intrigued by Chumley's idea, 198 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: and they asked him to explore whether or not they 199 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: could actually make it happen. They assigned you and Montague 200 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: as his planning partner. Montague was really excited about the idea. 201 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: He was one of the more enthusiastic ones on the committee. 202 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: He had also read the Trout Memo and so he 203 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: kind of got it. And he had grown up in 204 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: London in a wealthy Jewish family, and he was a 205 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: brilliant forty two year old defense lawyer. McEntire says that 206 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: he quote possessed the rare ability to read an interlock 207 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: teacher's mind. After the war broke out, Montague joined the 208 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve and became a lieutenant. But Godfrey 209 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: soon recognized his talents and recruited him for the Naval 210 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: Intelligence Department, and so he'd taken on more and more 211 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: responsibility there over time. So once Chumley and Montague started 212 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: working together, started putting their heads together on the Trojan 213 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: Horse plan, which is still what it was being called 214 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: at this point. Their first order of business was to 215 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: see if they could actually get their hands on a 216 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: dead body. I mean, no plan if you don't have 217 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: a body to work with. So when he outlined initial plan, 218 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: Chumley clearly thought that finding a body would be relatively simple. 219 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: He thought you could just walk into a military hospital, 220 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: plunk down ten pounds, walk off with anybody that you wanted. 221 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: But in reality the plan, that plan at least, wasn't 222 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: really very practical because deaths during war times, whether they 223 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: were from battles or whether they were suicides, didn't leave 224 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: behind the right kind of bodies for an operation like this. 225 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: For example, you couldn't use a bombing victim because it 226 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: would be pretty obvious that that person had died in 227 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: a bombing and their body wouldn't be in the right 228 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: condition for what they were trying to suggest here, you know, 229 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: a drowning or something like that. Even with somebody who 230 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: had hanged himself or poisoned himself, it would be pretty 231 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: easy to tell how he really died. Also, in all 232 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: of these cases there is the family and friends of 233 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: the deceased to consider people who would want to know 234 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: why the body of their loved one was being taken away, 235 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: And you didn't want to let too many people in 236 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: on the plan because you want it to be secret. 237 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: Of course, according to McIntyre, they briefly considered quote pulling 238 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: a birken hair and just stealing a corpse from a grave, 239 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: but they quickly decided against that, ring a bell to 240 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: podcast listeners, Katie and I did an old episode on 241 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: the famous body snatchers in here. Instead, Montague ended up 242 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: approaching a man that he knew from his lawyer days 243 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: named Bentley Purchase, who was a coroner in northwest London. Now, 244 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: Purchase wasn't quite what you'd expect from a coroner. He 245 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: was kind of like a Tim Burton character the most. 246 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: He was happy go lucky, with the real mccab sense 247 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: of humor. For example, after he gave Montague directions to 248 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: where he worked, he said, quote, an alternative means of 249 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: getting here is, of course, to get run over. That 250 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: might be faster, you never know. Purchase was initially pretty 251 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: hesitant though, to just despite his sense of humor, hesitant 252 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: to just hand over a body, and he was pretty professional. Yeah, 253 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: But when he heard that it was for a matter 254 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: of national importance, he agreed to help Montague obtain a 255 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: body that could appear to have died in a plane 256 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: crash or to have died by drowning, and he'd have 257 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: Montague choose from one of the unidentified bodies. These wouldn't 258 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: have next kin looking for them, you know, so there'd 259 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: be fewer strings attached. But there wasn't anything currently in 260 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: the mortuary that fit the bill, fit the bill that 261 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: they were looking for, so they'd have to wait a 262 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: while until somebody came in. At the end of January nine, 263 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: a suitable candidate finally did come along. It was a 264 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: thirty four year old Welsh tramp named Glenn Michael, who 265 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: had committed suicide by drinking rat poison in an abandoned warehouse. 266 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: He'd grown up in complete poverty, both his parents were dead, 267 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: and he seemed to have come to London just simply 268 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: to die. We don't know that for sure, but that's 269 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: almost how it looked. He really didn't know anyone there, 270 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: He didn't have any sense of purpose, any sort of job, 271 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: any attachments. Um. He just ended up dead. Michael ended 272 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: up and purchases Morgue and Purchase put him in cold 273 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: storage and immediately contacted Montague. Michael seemed pretty perfect for 274 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: the plan. As we mentioned, he was single, penniless, no 275 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: relatives were looking for him, and Purchase said that the 276 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: amount of rat poison he'd taken wasn't enough to be 277 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: detected later as the cause of death. And we'll talk 278 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: about that a little more later on in part two. 279 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: But um but that was the situation that Montague came 280 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: into the Purchase off. I told Montague, though, he was 281 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: going to have to act fast because he couldn't stave 282 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: off decomposition of the body for very long. The military 283 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: would have to use the body of Michael within three 284 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: months if they were going to use it at all. 285 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: That meant Montague and Chumley had to get official permission 286 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: from the twenty Committee to actually go forward with the plan, 287 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: because remember they were just exploring the idea for now. 288 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: They didn't actually see if they could get a body 289 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: in the first place, right, They didn't actually have the 290 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: go ahead, So they presented their proposal a week later, 291 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: with the plan renamed Operation mince Meat. Since Trojan Horse 292 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: would obviously immediately took off the Nazis that was going on. Yeah, 293 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: if they heard any sort of like wireless chatter about 294 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: a trojan horse, they would know that something was going 295 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: to happen. The code names, interestingly, it was just kind 296 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: of a side note, but those were selected from random 297 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: lists that were periodically recycled. So mince meat had been 298 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: previously used for a mine lane operation in the early 299 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: nineteen forties. But it just happens to be really perfect. Yeah, 300 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: it happens to be really perfect for this kind of 301 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: a kind of operation. Of all the surprising things in 302 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: this story that might have surprised me most, that this 303 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: was not a purposefully chosen code name. It just worked, no, 304 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: because you know this is That's one of the interesting 305 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: discussions in McIntyre's book too, as he kind of talks 306 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: about how Churchill especially did not want them to use 307 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: names that could be associated with the type of mission 308 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: that could match exactly and um and usually Montagu went 309 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: along with that as well. But he just kind of 310 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: thought that it was almost like a good omen that 311 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: they that this happened to pop up on the list 312 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: that they could choose from, so they chose it and 313 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: it was a good fit and their proposal that they submitted, 314 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: obviously was more specific than the more general plan that 315 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: Chumley had laid out before, and it suggested that the 316 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: body would carry documents to throw the Nazis off on 317 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: the Allies plans to invade Sicily. So the twenty Committee 318 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 1: was good with it. They told them to go ahead. 319 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: But even with that hurdle behind them, Chumley and Montague's 320 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 1: real challenge was really just starting. Because they couldn't just 321 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: drop the body as is into the enemy's hands. It 322 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: would just be some random guy. They had to create 323 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: a whole new personality for it to make the entire 324 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: story believable. And of course Montague and Chumley did have 325 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: some experience with this because they had created fictional personas 326 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: and their work is double agents, and a lot of 327 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: the double agents who they worked with had armies of 328 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: sub agents who supposedly fed them information to report back 329 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: to Germany. But a lot of these sub agents were 330 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: just completely made up. Yeah. I mean, the reasoning here 331 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: is fake spies much easier to work with than real ones. 332 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: I mean, the hard part about it was really keeping 333 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: up with all of their various fake lives and personalities. 334 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: You had to be really consistent and remember all the details. Oh, 335 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: you know, does does this one sick? Um? What's going 336 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: on with us? Was it was he taking time off? 337 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: You know? Is this one shiftless? You have to remember? 338 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: Like about them? Yes, and so Monte and Chumbley they 339 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: wanted to similarly create a whole fictional life for the 340 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: dead body that they were using, the logic being that 341 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: the more believable he was, the more believable the whole 342 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: hoax would ultimately be. So Chumbley and Montague spent a 343 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 1: lot of time honing this guy's story, what he liked, 344 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: what he didn't like, what his strengths and weaknesses were, 345 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: the people in his life, you know. They made up 346 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: family members and stories for the family members. The first 347 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: big decision they had to make, though, is what kind 348 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: of officer he would be. He had to be someone 349 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: who could wear a standard size uniform, because they obviously 350 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: couldn't take a corpse to a tailor and have them 351 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 1: fitted for a uniform. And he had to be someone 352 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: who was important enough to be carrying secret documents, not 353 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: part of it had to be believable to so they 354 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: finally settled on the fact that he would be an 355 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: officer of the Royal Marines, and to pick a name, 356 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: they had to choose one from the current names on 357 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: the Navy list, because the Germans would probably have a 358 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: copy of that and they might even check up to 359 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: make sure that the name was there, that he wasn't 360 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: just an entirely fictitious person. They ultimately picked Captain William 361 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 1: hind Nori Martin, who was serving in Rhode Island at 362 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: the time and probably wouldn't hear about what was going on. 363 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: That he had just washed up dead in Spain, and 364 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: they made the corpse of fake I d so he 365 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: could be easily identified from there. They took several other 366 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: steps to round out the dead body's character. Just a 367 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: few examples of what they did. They got him a 368 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: new uniform, which Chumbley actually wore around for a while 369 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: so that it wouldn't seem so new. He wanted to 370 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: wear it out a little bit, make it a little dirty. 371 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: And they also gave the dead body a family background 372 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: in a place of origin, so they had him come 373 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: from an upper middle class family, and they said that 374 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: he was from Wales, which was incidentally the only real 375 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: thing about about the real identity of the body. Yes, 376 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: They made him Roman Catholic by putting across around his neck, 377 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: and this kind of did double duty. It added personality 378 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: to him and it also helped ensure that there probably 379 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't be an autopsy. Catholic countries were hesitant to perform 380 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: autopsies anyway, but especially on other Catholics. I thought that 381 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: would discourage them even more. And they gave him kind 382 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: of a rascally side too. Aside from his religion and 383 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: his his family background, they made him fiscally irresponsible. They 384 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: planted and overdrow half notice on him, and they actually 385 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: had it written by a real bank manager, so everything 386 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: was legit. And they gave him a love life. They 387 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: created a fictional fiance for him, which was inspired by 388 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: a real young woman who worked for British counterintelligence. They 389 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: included letters from her, obviously changing her name, and they 390 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: even included a photo of her. And Montague kind of 391 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,239 Speaker 1: got into character here by flirting with the girl and 392 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: actually dating her even though he was married. So in 393 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: a way, I mean McEntyre points out how they both 394 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: kind of take on this character. You know, exactly tell 395 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: me by wearing the clothes and Montu by pretend fiance 396 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: and that's just part of it. They discussed and they 397 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: developed every part of his life and thought through every 398 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: object they put on their fictional officers person. And part 399 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: two of this podcast we'll talk more about the man 400 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: that Montague and Chumley created and whether they did a 401 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: good job in doing it, because people have of freeing 402 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: opinions about that. We'll also get into their next big challenge, 403 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: planning the actual drop of the body and find out 404 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: what happened to the body once it got got past 405 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: the shore and onto Nazi radar. Al Right, so until 406 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: next time, lenty to look forward to. Until next time, 407 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: we will move on to listener mail. So for this 408 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: listener Mail, we have some postcards to share from people. 409 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: You know how we love postcards. We have one from 410 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: Strasburg from listener Ed and he says, dear to Blien 411 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: and Sarah, longtime listener, first time postcard and my trip 412 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: down the Rhine. I've been looking for unusual stories that 413 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: might make good podcast. Here's a picture of the astrological 414 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: clock that, for some mysterious reason is located inside the 415 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: cathedral in Strasburg. Keep up the good work. We also 416 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: got another postcard from Hillary and this is an amazing postcard. 417 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: It's one of those three d ones where there's like 418 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: the plastic really thing overlaying it, and if you look 419 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: at it one direction, it's one picture of man Cello. 420 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: If you look at it, the other picture is another 421 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: angle of manta Cello. She wrote to us, have you 422 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: ever seen such a trippy historical postcard before? I hadn't. 423 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: I don't think I have either, and we've received quite 424 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: a few of them. She said that she went to 425 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: visit Monticello a few weeks ago, and funny that you 426 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 1: just read about clock's Deablina because she mentions that she says, 427 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 1: for example, in Jefferson's day, it would have been a 428 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: sign of status to have a clock in the house. 429 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: He had one in every room he designed. The one 430 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: in the entryway it showed the days of the week, 431 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: not just the hours. Sunday was down in the basement 432 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: since he ran out of vertical room for the chain 433 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: with weights that sank into each day's allotted space on 434 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: the wall. Um, I have you ever been to Montochello? 435 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: I haven't. It's a very fun spot to visit, and 436 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: I feel like everybody has their own favorite weird Jefferson 437 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,479 Speaker 1: designed thing in the house because there's a lot. What's yours? Um, 438 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: I really, I'm just like the triple hung windows. I 439 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: thought that was so smart because you get a double 440 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: air current coming in a good pre air conditioning thing 441 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: if you're living in Virgin cool, very green. Well, this 442 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: next postcard we have is the Spirit of seventies six, 443 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: the painting by Willard and apparently it hangs in the 444 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: Seleckman's Room and Abbot Hall in Marblehead, Massachusetts, which I 445 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: didn't realize. And the postcard is from listener Rachel, and 446 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: she says I love your podcast and listened regularly while 447 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: biking on our town's bike path. We have a great 448 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: deal of history here, the birthplace of the U. S. Navy, 449 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: the first soldiers for the Revolution and Civil Wars, protected 450 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: USS constitution in War of eighteen twelve, and much more. 451 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear a podcast on my little hometown. 452 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: We get overshadowed here by our next door neighbors, Salem 453 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: and Uh. I thought this was a good one. Of course, 454 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: I used to live in Boston. We've mentioned that before, 455 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: and I've been to Marblehoad before I did. I covered 456 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: a freelance story there once and I went up there 457 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: once also with my husban and before he was my husband, 458 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: and it's a beautiful little town and we went to 459 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: like a great little ice cream shop and had ice 460 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: cream there, and I just I just loved it. So thanks. 461 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: Good to hear from you, Rachel. Good to hear from 462 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: all of you who write in and send us postcards. 463 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: If you want to share with us your travels or 464 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: an interesting note about your hometown, or just a podcast suggestion, 465 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: you can write us at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. 466 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: We're also on Facebook and we're on Twitter at Myston History. 467 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: And if you want to learn a little bit more 468 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: about dead bodies and I guess studying them in a 469 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: different sort of way than Chumley is doing. We do 470 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: have an article on how body farms work. You can 471 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: search for body farms on our homepage at www dot 472 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com for more on this and 473 00:25:53,280 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com. 474 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: I was Amber Day, that I was Amber Day, eat 475 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: even