1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. I'm Stephen, Carol and 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: vis Is Here's Why, where we take one news story 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: and explain it in just a few minutes with our 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: experts here at Bloomberg. There have been several surprises in 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's choices for key roles in his administration, but 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: his nominee to lead the Health Department that's been particularly controversial. 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 2: He's a very long anti vaccine activist. He is a 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: science denihilist, and he's a conspiracy theorist. This is not 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: the kind of person you want to head health agencies. 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: I mean, he has said that no vaccine is a 11 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: benefit is tremendous power over all Americans' day to day lives. 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 3: He wants to make people healthy. 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 4: It's driven him pretty wild over the last number of years, 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 4: and today I nominated him for I guess if you 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 4: like health, then if you like people that live a 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 4: long time, it's the most important position. 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 3: RFK Junior Bobby Robert F. 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior has been vocal in his opposition to vaccines, 19 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: notably during the COVID nineteen pandemic. He was widely condemned 20 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: for calling the shots a crime against humanity. If he's confirmed. 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: His position of influence on US health policy comes at 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: a time when anti vaccine sentiment has already undermined progress 23 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: in tackling diseases such as measles. Cases jumped by twenty 24 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: percent last year, exposing the gaps in vaccine coverage for 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: a preventable illness. So here's why vaccine hesitancy is a 26 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: growing problem. Sam Fazali, director of research at Bloomberg Intelligence, 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: joins me now for more. Sam, this idea of being 28 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: opposed to vaccines or skeptical or hesitant about them isn't new, 29 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: But how far can we trace the sort of philosophy back. 30 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 5: Generally vaccine hesitancy. Vaccine questions, as we all know, have 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 5: been around like any other medicine, really as soon as 32 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 5: something is available. Right now, we have obcent drugs and 33 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 5: lots of people are questioning about O weekitly drugs. So 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 5: any new product, any new technology that comes along, there 35 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 5: are skeptics. And sometimes that's very useful because it pushes 36 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 5: you to think it harder to make sure you have 37 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 5: the data and the science backing the risk benefit ratio, 38 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 5: and that is the critical element of any intervention. 39 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 3: Than we do in our lives risk benefit ratio. 40 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: So is there any concept that this sentiment is on 41 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: the rise of what effect can we think that it 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: has in terms of public health? 43 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 5: There is evidence that the view of particularly parents with 44 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 5: regards to childhood vaccinations in terms of negativity is rising. 45 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 5: If you think back, we had that zudo scientific paper 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 5: that was published quite a long time ago suggesting that certain. 47 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: Vaccines lead to autism. 48 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 5: Was of course that the study was flawed, that statistics 49 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 5: were flawed, the analysis was flawed, and that's been proven 50 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 5: over and over again. So but there is a tendency 51 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 5: and there seems to be an increasing attitude you toward 52 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 5: I don't want to expose my child to whatever it 53 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 5: is that people think that they're doing negative for their kids, 54 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 5: which of course is as far as I'm concerned, super dangerous. 55 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 3: I've got some stats for your measles that we can 56 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 3: talk about. 57 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: Well, let's because that's one of the ones that the 58 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 1: WHL has particularly been warning about. U. 59 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, the data twenty twenty four is still we're in 60 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 3: it right. 61 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 5: Twenty twenty three, there was a twenty percent increase in 62 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 5: the cases of measles. Now, remembering vaccines don't prevent infections. 63 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 5: Vaccines prevent disease, and I think that's one of the 64 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 5: things that perhaps people got a bit confused about. 65 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: During COVID. 66 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 5: You get your vaccinations and a few months later you 67 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 5: still get COVID infection. But why did that happen? I 68 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 5: think perhaps we didn't communicate very well. So let's say, measles, 69 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 5: this infection, twenty percent increase could be a statistical fluke, 70 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 5: but let's see, well how twenty twenty four turns out. 71 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 5: But there's definitely a trend toward increases. And we've heard 72 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 5: stories around the UK where there are outbreaks and there 73 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 5: have been some cases. But let me just say, before 74 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 5: the vaccine came through, two point six million people a 75 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 5: year were. 76 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 3: Dying nineteen sixty three. 77 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 5: Imagine how what their your world population was that time 78 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 5: now much larger, And so far last year or this year, 79 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 5: we've only had one hundred and seven thousand deaths only. 80 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 5: I mean, you know that's obviously a single death is bad. 81 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 5: But so this is something where vaccines really stand out 82 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 5: in medical treatments. 83 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: For people who are hesitant or unsure about vaccines, how 84 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: much trust can we have on the process that leads 85 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: to their approval. This was part of the conversation around 86 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: COVID as well. It appeared that the process moved much 87 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:27,559 Speaker 1: quicker in that case. 88 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, don't forget COVID. We were in a pandemic. 89 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 5: Let's say I'm not saying you well, let's say mpox 90 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 5: becomes the new small box, right, what are we going 91 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 5: to do. We have to get vaccinations at as fast 92 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 5: as possible to prevent the ultimate millions of deaths that 93 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 5: will occur. 94 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 3: That is a very specific period. So COVID was a 95 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 3: very special situation. 96 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 5: People should not assume that vaccines used to take years 97 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 5: to get. 98 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 3: To market previously and they continue to be the case. Now, 99 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 3: that was a special period. 100 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 5: Vaccines go through significant rigor because by definition, you're giving 101 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 5: something a medical intervation to a hell healthy person, So 102 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,799 Speaker 5: you need to be absolutely sure as much as humanly 103 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 5: possible of its safety. 104 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: What can be done then to counteract the sentiment if 105 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: we can place more emphasis on the rigor of these 106 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: approval systems for vaccines to trust people they're safe. There 107 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: is there more mastering that we can do to ensure 108 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: people know and can trust in vaccines. 109 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 5: I think good high quality scientific messaging that that is acceptable, 110 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 5: understandable by people, not bamboozling them with strange terminology and data, 111 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 5: and really just highlighting the sorts of stats that are 112 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 5: just given. Nineteen sixty three, two point six million deaths 113 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 5: last year, one hundred and seven thousand from measos. These 114 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 5: are facts that people need to know. It's not that 115 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 5: MESOS virus has disappeared. The virus has always stay with 116 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 5: us in some form or another. So that's the question. 117 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 3: I mean, we have got rid of one which was 118 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: small box. But this is what people need to understand. 119 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 5: Let's give them more information and be ready there to 120 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 5: coolly converse with folks with other skeptical. 121 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: How much influence could someone in charge of the Health 122 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: and Human Services Department in the United States have on 123 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: vaccine uptake if the messaging is coming from a different 124 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: point of. 125 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 5: View, significant significant, So I mean, you know, even if 126 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 5: the ADA approves a vaccine, I think the head of 127 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 5: the HS can have an influence on it actually being 128 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 5: able to launch, actually being able to use. This is 129 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 5: a very powerful position, and I'm hoping given that Doroth K. 130 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 5: Junior has some very good views about food additives, the 131 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 5: types of food that are consumed that logic will prevail 132 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 5: over mythology if it's the best phrase of can news. 133 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: Part of your day job is researching pharmaceutical companies. I 134 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: wonder how they approach this issue of hesitancy around uptake 135 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: of vaccines. 136 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 3: Yeah. 137 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 5: Look, farmer companies are there to make a profit. They're 138 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 5: there to get their product to market faster and keeping 139 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 5: on the market for longest. The agencies, the FDA, the 140 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 5: European Agency for Medical Regulation and Approvals it so they 141 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 5: are there to gatekeep I'm not saying farmer companies do 142 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 5: bad things, but there is a significant barrier between a 143 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 5: company who's incentivized to get his products to market, which 144 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 5: in a majority of the times they do with good conscience. 145 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 5: There is a barrier, there's a significant filter with the public, 146 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 5: and that's what these. 147 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 3: Agencies are for. 148 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 5: That is where we hope that the HHS and the 149 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 5: new administration that's coming into the US doesn't undermine that ability. Yes, 150 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 5: remove red tape, but don't undermine the critical nature of 151 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 5: their work, which is safety. 152 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: Thanks to Sam Fazzali, director of research at Bloomberg Intelligence, 153 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: for more explanations like this one from our team of 154 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts around the world. Search 155 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: for quick take on the Bloomberg website or Bloomberg Business App. 156 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: I'm Stephen Carroll. This is here's why. I'll be back 157 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: next week with more. Thanks for listening.