00:00:17 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Some cooks are defined by a single food culture. Andy Barragani is shaped by many, but with a yearning for one. Growing up in a second generation Iranian American family in the Bay Area, he was immersed in Persian culture and Californian produce. At sixteen, that led him to the kitchen door of the seminole restaurant Shapanese. From there, he cooked in kitchens in New York before finding his way to bonn Epetite, where he became known for both his recipes and his biceps. He went on to write the James be At Award, winning The Cook You Want to Be. What I admire most about Andy is that he's always been ambitious for himself and his place in the food world. The same goes for the way that he travels. With every new country and trip, he finds a new flavor, expanding and refining his cannon of recipes. Today we talk about going solo in Vietnam, the bold food of Bay Rue, He's near but far, relationship with Iran, and the mercurial Mulbury. Here's my conversation with Andy Barragani, my friend, welcome to traveling through I can't wait. I wanted to start our conversation with one place that we have in common, which is I know, Shipanice. Yeah, when we when were you there? Because we didn't we almost crossed over almost. 00:01:39 Speaker 2: I was a baby. I was a little Berkeley two thousand and seven is when I came, like end of two thousand and six. Yeah, I was a baby, very young cook. And I like to say I was a sponge. I really was just deeply curious. Went into the kitchen by myself and turned to Beth Wells, who's still there, and I said, I want to work here. I'll do whatever. I'm in school, but I'll come after school and on weekends. And I think I could see her confusion, but she was like, okay, And. 00:02:16 Speaker 1: Was it because you grew up in Berkeley or was it and that was the most famous restaurant or is it something else, some other quality of the restaurant. 00:02:24 Speaker 2: That I think. I grew up in a household where we cook pretty much every meal. I mean we did go out, but not often. And then I wasn't aware of Japanese until maybe a year or two before I started working there. It was my uncle who kind of told me about it. Was like, oh, there's a very famous restaurant here that's been here for many, many years, that goes back to the seventies and really kind of created a movement. And then my aunt gave me the Shapenese Cafe Cookbook, and then I just became honestly obsessed. And I don't use that word often, but I really was about everything, the philosophy, the mantra, the food, the recipes, the woman behind it, the chefs that have gone through those doors, and I just thought, how is this right there? How is it right there? And so I just had to kind of get myself in there somehow. And I feel like that behavior, the way I'm wired has kind of luckily still is very much in me. I still think I'm like that. Like anything that I become enamored by and really fascinating by, I think of like, how can I learn? How could I learn? It was a foundational period of time. It really kind of provided a tremendous foundation in terms of food and cooking for me. 00:03:33 Speaker 1: Well, talking about the woman behind it, Alice, I worked in her in her office for about what five six years, and it's like, you know, interesting that you say it was kind of an education because that's where she's coming from. All of the main things that you learned. What were kind of the real takeaways from shape and is that you use kind. 00:03:54 Speaker 2: Of I'd say, like, without even getting so technical, I'd say it's more of a like behavioral I think it's like continuing to be curious to practice, I think too. And really the most important is to taste, taste throughout, taste in the beginning and the middle and the end, adjust and understand the kind of a liveness of the ingredients you're working with and that you're cooking with. And even then I was so not sure. I'm like, am I supposed to go to Connery School? I never ended up going to Colnory School. 00:04:27 Speaker 1: And there's when you were sixteen. 00:04:28 Speaker 2: I was very young and one of the chefs there cal I remember he told me, He's like, don't go, like, continue working in restaurants, work your way up. And I just thought, listen, this is now twenty years ago, which is very crazy. 00:04:43 Speaker 1: We look fantastic. Thank you. 00:04:45 Speaker 2: I I did not think about that until the story moment. I'm like, twenty years ago, I'm like, who, I think those lessons that I've learned, I still used those lessons. 00:04:55 Speaker 1: I remember in the pages of some of the books you mentioned the cafe, the Japanese Cafe book, which is of course a masterpiece. But my favorite one is vegetables. Of course, of course, I guess like i'd be curious to know you're of Persian hair. Yes, for summation, and that is obviously a very vegetable centric cuisine. So I think about your cooking is not only vegetables, but also very herb for it, which is. 00:05:24 Speaker 2: A big part of person cuisine too. 00:05:25 Speaker 1: It's like they love their herbs, and so where is the kind of place that you feel like uses herbs the best in terms of your travel. 00:05:34 Speaker 2: Out of all the place that I've been to, I say this over and over, I've not been able to go to Iran. It's like the kind of missing piece, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But the place that I have been to that has the same, I imagine, the same love verbs is Vietnam. I mean, I really have not experienced a country that just consumes herbs in a way that is so similar to the way I grew up, where it's like the fistful and it's platters of herbs, platters of raw herbs and that you kind of throw into whatever soup or noodles or you eat in between bites. It provides this freshness in the spite and bitterness and sweetness and earthiness. Going there and traveling kind of up and down the country and seen and how it's it's such a big part. And really the range of herbs I had never even seen before. 00:06:25 Speaker 1: Do you create Vietnamese inflected food or yeah, something's enjoy No, no, no, I definitely there's. 00:06:34 Speaker 2: There's a few dishes in my first book, and definitely recipes that I've developed for the times and when I was up on Avati, but there I remember going. I was in Pojaman and Hanoi and Danang and Sappa and fu Qualk but and there were dishes like Boonrio, which if I could, that would be a dish I'd have every single morning. That would be the dish I'd have every morning. And it's a hot soup. It's noodle soup but with tomatoes and tofu and sometimes some seafood and it's just delicious. I love any kind of tomato soup mixture and tomato and egg I just I love or Bon bay Way, which is more richer and heavier, and obviously all the different salads. I remember having like a these seen this restaurant, not even it was like an open stall. It had just a pile. The whole window front was piled with fried eels, tiny tiny eels like this big just all like so airy and crisp. And they did like three different dishes and they put like there was like a noodle soup where you had like a big handful of fried eel and then you had like this salad that with fried eel, and I got both but one dish that I had, and it was in Hanoi, and it was a restaurant that made just this one dish that didn't do anything else, which happens a lot in that part of the world in Vietnam, especially called Checha Lavong. So it's this fried fish with turmeric and dilh and they server with rice noodles and yak chum, which is obviously incredible Vietnamese sauce of like that has every single kind of sour, sweet, funky, and spicy, and then with like lots of herbs and lettuce. And I was very confused because if you take away the noodles and then yak chum. I'm like, this is a person dish. This is this is reminded me of of Sa mahi uh, a dish you eat during the Persian New Year. It's herb rice dish. But the fish you you fry it and you fry sometimes with turmeric or with saffron, and you serve with sour oranges and dil. Deal. 00:08:59 Speaker 1: Isn't it really? 00:09:00 Speaker 2: Dial is a huge part of Persian cuisine like Vietnam. 00:09:06 Speaker 1: I had no idea. 00:09:08 Speaker 2: I also happened to just that's like my favorite herbs. 00:09:10 Speaker 1: It really, I wouldn't I wasn't. Wouldn't dare ask you? That might be an opening question? 00:09:16 Speaker 2: What your favorite changes every day? 00:09:17 Speaker 1: Changes every day? 00:09:18 Speaker 2: Today, it's still for a while now it's bin bil but and terragon and fresh beer leaves like those are the fresh beare leave I blame. I'm sure people are going to all rise. I blame ship and is one hundred percent for. 00:09:28 Speaker 1: That I was thinking about we have a shared love of Lebanon, yes and Beyrout specifically for multiple reasons and just thinking about markets and farmers' markets. We have a mutual friend called Kamal Muswag who started a thing called Sukoltaire, which is a farmer's market and a way to kind of catalog agriculture and food culture throughout Lebanon and really related to bringing people from all of the major sext So she eyed Sunny Drew's Maronite Christian all coming women are women and women. Yeah, well exactly, and that's evolved from that too. And it's amazing because it's it's on the green line where you know that kind of demilitariz zone. I I think that's what you call it, the zone in the middle of Bay Route. I mean, it's an incredible thing of reconciliation that place. 00:10:16 Speaker 2: The absolutely, I mean, I think it was very accidental. I have to mention I wanted to go to Lebanon and I wanted to go to Bay Route. I had this kind of sometimes it's these you know, things you read or see or an old photo and it inspires me and it's like, oh, I just want to go there. I've got There's plenty of places that maybe might feel random to some people, but it was very intentional for me. Lebanon was one of those places. And I had met Kamal on that first trip and on my own and it was incredible It was incredible because it was I remember going there and I was had a layover and the gate to go to Bay Route was also the gate next it was Tehran, so it was so it was frankly like just a mind fuck because it was like, oh, I am this this the country of like my my parents. It's where I speak, the language, I cook the food, I know the food, and this deep desire, this missing piece is right there and I'm not able to go, and there's just it's it's near impossible for me to go. Obviously, I got my flight. I went to Beirut and it felt at least there was something well wildly different in different and a different language and different culture and different food. There was something about it because the hospitality that I felt from Kamal, from the people that I met in Lebanon was just it reminded me of my own family, but with a little more chaos. I have to admit, like, I love my Lebanese people. I think they're a touch more livelier and persons are pretty lively, but I think Lebanese are even wilder because they have this amazing habit or accidental habit of speaking French, Arabic and English and like, you know, one or two sentences alid ones and the food, I should say, like the food. And I ate with Kamal a few times. But this first trip was incredible and just had a deeper appreciation from the food of the Levant and all the breads, and and also getting into bates because you know, of course, like because we're somewhat neighbors, and they'd say, ah, like you Persians, you guys just eat rice, and you guys just it's Saffron, this Saffron. I was like, well, you know, you guys don't know how to make rice. I love these kind of fun you know, food debates and culture debates. 00:12:46 Speaker 1: I was there, I mean, believe it or not, flying into bay Route in order to go into a story in Damascus in Syria because Damascus was going to be the new Marrakesh. And we did this extraordinary shoot. It's one of the the great travels of my life. But you know, you come in and out of bay Rout and very few people realize that Bayrout and Damascus are like what an hour and a half away. So I would get a taxi in and out from Syria, which is kind of crazy. But the project of Sukal Taieb also evolved then into Taolet, which was really like an extraordinary program, and effectively what it was is women grandmothers that would bring every day of the week. They would change which community throughout the country would come bring their produce and create kind of. 00:13:35 Speaker 2: Recipes food from the region. 00:13:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and then they would catalog them. So it became this kind of living archive of Lebanese cuisine. And I only stumbled on it. It's like a canteen but really beautiful, and then have all of the salads kind of brought out to you. And I remember they had an art exhibition which was paintings and representations of Mount Ararat because it was a nod to kind of the Armenian community there that kind of mixes in with in Beirut, because of course it's like a huge nexus. 00:14:08 Speaker 2: Kamal did something. He's the one who kind of said, you know, he gave me suggestions and we had a few meals and we spent a lot of time together. But I remember him telling me like, oh, you need to go to berjh Haamoud, and I was like, you know, and it wasn't far from Tailan, and I went there and it was Armenian neighbor in Beirut, and I just had Armenian food and I ate so much. I mean, from different lahmajoude into these stuffed incredible like the hot breads and all the different kind of twenty thirty. However, many greens and herbs were in them, and it really that food actually reminded me of Persian food in a way because there is a kind of delicateness and a mildness. Persian food generally really doesn't have a lot of heat or spice to it, like you love your saffron tumeric, certain warm spices, but there's no like fiery heat to it. And they love their kind of sweet flavors too, so you'll see like fruit in a lot of kind of stews, and same with Ourmeni and cuisine. And I grew up with a father who described when I told him I remember coming back and I told Hi about the Armenian food in that area, he said, the Armenians are you know, we look at them as like the artisans of like that area. And I don't know if that was something that like Persians feel. I think that was something more my dad felt, and it just made me think about, you know, a group of people that that have gone through so much darkness and war, and yet it was just kind of the most incredible food that I had on that trip and in. 00:15:51 Speaker 1: My life, I mean, we have a lot in common. We're always searching, I think for something flavor, flavor of a place, actual flavor, and I always find that, like my some of my most memorable trips are shared experiences, but many of them of them have been solo trips. And I remember one time we were talking about, like when you're in a particular place, it's actually very freeing to eat by yourself. What's one of the trips the solo trips that stands out for you the mist. 00:16:20 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm a big solo traveler, less so now because I have a husband travel with often, but I'll sometimes a little bit of solo traveling. But I did do a good chunk of that pretty much majority of my twenties and it was the greatest gift to myself and whether you know, I had little money then, but I traveled incredibly well. And I mentioned we spoke about Vietnam. I was on my own there and in Lebanon and is stumble I'd say those were three. I traveled many places, but those three stand out because I think I learned the most from those places. Those three places really shaped Also the food that I cook definitely had an influence on my style of cooking. Also, those three places are actually very easy to eat all the things. When I was in Lebanon, like there was so much good food, Like, oh there, the rice culture is not a thing here, Like I totally got that right away. But amazing other thing. Turkey they do rice well, they do breads well, they do kebab well, they do vegetables well. They really cover all this stuff i'd see. The thing that I kind of took away was how they kind of spice things. They're chilies, Turkish chilis kind of started to become part of my cooking cell. The Earfa bi beer that you see on every single tabletop, no matter how casual or it just that's smoky, kind of leathery, lingering like mild heat. Like now I just have so many little like plastic tin containers of Urfa biber, And I think that's the thing. It's it's not a dish always, it's sometimes like a technique or a look or a spice where I'm like, oh, I feel I feel very connected to it. I remember I was like took a boat from on the boss forus, and you just feel the feeling I had there was more than any other place in the world. War like, this is old, this has things at the center of the universe. It felt that way, that deep deep deep blue water. This the in between. Uh, you know, have two continents. And I was there actually on my own during the Taxing Square riots. 00:18:35 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 00:18:36 Speaker 2: And I was staying in your taxing square. I was staying. I was staying in Taxing Square. I was staying in Jiang year. I stayed in two different areas, Young and chikuch Kama, and they were just incredible and it felt like young And obviously I didn't know about the riots, and the riots happened. I was in Turkey for again, probably about like three weeks on my own, and I remember my family being like, get out of there, what's happening. Of course, I was right there at Good Berkeley war like in the protests, with the protests, and then I remember there was there was a was a curfew one night. Oh my god, this I can't believe I remember this. There were two things that had happened. I went on a date with the with the guy there one night and protests wrapping, and I guess there were there they I did. They were starting to impose a curfew, but they threw a noise bomb at where we were eating. So we all went inside this restaurant and the owner just started yaling, yelling at them in turch. But it made a noise that, I mean, what a noise bomb makes. And I had never experienced that obviously before, and it was terrifying. And I remember walking back and there it was. It was a curfew, like no one was on this street and I should have known better. And I remember just a guard like pointing to their gun at me. I just was so terrified. And all I remember saying was like I took my passport out. That's all I remember. I'm like, I remember waving my passport. I'm an American. But I went into survival mode. That being said, like, that's not a good pinting of Turkey. But that was a very specific time. 00:20:21 Speaker 1: But also, you know, the thing is, and we should be realistic about like Istanbul and Turkey. It's like whenever the you know, people start going back, Yeah, something happens in that way. I have very good friends. She used to be the editor in chief of Vogue Turkey and her partner runs kind of a fixer that we work with all the time, and they're like fantastic sensational people and they they were very involved in like the electoral Transparency organization setting that up. And she was also very involved in trying to get the Olympics to go to Istanbul, which almost happened many times. And so I was there yeah, last year, and I still encourage people to go. I mean obviously there's you know, these riots and that happens every so often, often even recently, but it does it. You know, it breaks my heart a little bit because once they get momentum, they have this setback. Yes, I'm confident that like progress will well will Yeah, I think that that will overcome because it's one of the you know, it's the original cosmopolitan city. 00:21:23 Speaker 2: And in a way we're talking about markets. I mean the markets over there, and obviously there's the more fa there's the obvious ones like the Buzz are there, but there are smaller markets that are incredible within is stumble and outside that are just you know, the I think the greatest figs I've had are obviously we're in a stumble in Sicily those two. 00:21:44 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't advise going with like glamorous girlfriends who then get caught up in the counterfeit market and then they're like going for the chanelle the night time. It was like, drove me crazy. Three. You have to follow them. 00:21:56 Speaker 2: You have to go with with your friends who want good pestamels like those are good. I still have Peschemel. The Turkish towels. They're very thin, and there are some that are just incredibly beautifully made. I mean, you can see so many, but there's ones that are really well made, and they're very thin, very lightweight. They're like perfect in the summer, and they dry so quickly. 00:22:18 Speaker 1: You know, you're giving me a very vivid memory. I went with another great friend of mine, my best friend actually, who was a chef, and we went to do this experience of speaking of thin, thin kind of fabric. We went to a bakery, a Turkish bakery, and it was from a family from Ghaziantep, which does the best sweets. And I'm not a big Turkish sweet person. I find them a bit too sweet sweet. 00:22:50 Speaker 2: A lot of them that's the case with you know not to It happened a lot with Middle Eastern sweets. I have the same film with person. Sweets can be good ones, but Turkish babla bara is amazing. 00:23:01 Speaker 1: Can I tell you though? This one was kind of amazing. And it was almost like going to a hotel laundromat because like behind the scenes, because they were throwing the filo pastry like sheets and it was just these clouds of flour and sugar. It was one of the most extraordinary experiences. 00:23:22 Speaker 2: I'm remembering all these things, yeah, because it's somemble was I was very young and Vietnam. I was Vietnam, I was in I was selling college. I'd say Turkey and Vietnam are two places that I have are the places that when people ask like, oh, where have you gone, where you've had like the best food? I still would say those two. I do love Paris, but that's separate. I think, like in terms of just learning about the food and loving what I kind of all the muscles I just remember also all the must stuffed muscles, all that people were I think some people might be afraid to have. I had so many stuffed muscles with the rice are just on the street. But it's like my mouth's watering because it was like this amazing like slightly overcooked smoky rice and muscle and that we're kind of briny, and it was delicious. 00:24:15 Speaker 1: Do you want to go next? Like what's your like? 00:24:18 Speaker 2: I'll say I have a lot of trips. One of them where I have like this loose list already for mean and Egypt is definitely one. I'd say the number one is India. I think it's crazy. I just am so fascinated by the hospitality, the hotel culture, the food culture, just uh what a I have no doubt that I would be deeply, deeply inspired. And I love that food. And it's highly highly regional, you know, such a range of cuisine there's and I think like we're starting to We're so lucky to see that here in New York slowly where we're seeing regional Indian cuisine a little bit more. And that's actually just what excites me now in the world now, I think like with major cities, it's like we're not doing these kind of general this is Chinese as Indian, because like what does that mean these kind of countries and cultures? It varies so much just like a place. It's like a smaller country like Lebanon. It's highly regional. Each neighborhood, if province, they have, you know, their variation and different take. 00:25:19 Speaker 1: You're going to come to India with me, I would love that. 00:25:21 Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like I have to. There's many countries. I just most countries. Is like, I would love for you to take me around usually the tour guide. 00:25:30 Speaker 1: We would have a great time in India, you know. And interestingly, like in India there is the Pasi community which left Persia Iran the Zoastrians seven hundred years ago and now sadly it's like a. 00:25:44 Speaker 2: It's a smaller community, but still. 00:25:47 Speaker 1: It's it's it's and it's you know, it has some troubles of like survival, I think. But that's kind of an extraordinary thing, you know, you talk about getting closer to to your heritage, like that would be something extraordinary for you to see because it's filtered through the Indian tradition. You know, it's quite an amazing It's dude. 00:26:07 Speaker 2: I think that's also part of this. Sometimes I'm conscious, sometimes I'm not this desire to kind of go to places that have maybe a sliver aspects of certain pages that are related to Iran and Persian history and Persian cuisine and the people and places and the smells and textures, because it's very confusing. I really did not think that I would be thirty six and have not gone to Iron. I really thought that this would be something that I would have done. I always felt like, I'm going to get there. I'm going to get there, and it's I think the older I get, it's like it makes me it's more apparent that it's a missing piece. It's very confusing to be riding about a culture, speaking the language, studying the food, trying to spread and that's really I think a part of my job is as someone who's first generation Iranian American, is to kind of spread light on a culture that is not really viewed in the best life, especially in the States, and it's often misunderstood, and obviously I think an easy way to do that is through food and through showcasing that culture. I have no idea. I did try to get to I ran by the way I should mention seven years ago. I was twenty nineteen, and I went through the whole process. I got my citizenship. I like went to d C. I did a whole my citizenship birth certificate, because that's how I have to go. That's why it was always tricky for me. I can't go through a visa. I'd have to go as a citizen, and then there's the kind of more complicated matter where they wouldn't acknowledge dual citizenship. But when I was ready to go and had the whole kind of trip pretty planned, and it just was not a great time. Especially it hasn't been a good time for many, many decades now. But so I have not gone, and I still have to believe that I will get there because I really think about it all the time, and I just the amount of like accounts and videos I save and things that I I mean, even now, it's like I have this habit that I've developed in the past few weeks where I asked my mom had some family come from Iran. I said, please bring me two things. I never asked for anything. That's a lie. I always ask for saffron, but I'm like, I had to ask for two additional things. I said, I need Lavo shack, which is the kind of Persian leather fruit Whi's incredible because they make with such you know, flavors that are distinct to that part of the world, like barberries. 00:28:47 Speaker 3: Yeah that sweet sour and dried persian plums all loo, which are amazing because they're like salty and sour and all sweet and you freeze. 00:29:00 Speaker 2: I freeze them, which and I eat them frozen, So they're kind of like this chewy jammy salty. It just makes you salivate. It's so delicious. So I find my own little ways to kind of maintain that connection. 00:29:15 Speaker 1: But Andy, can I say to you that you're yearning for that? And it translates not only in the way that you know, you write those extraordinary recipes and are a conduit to that culture, like you're extraordinary nerrows feature that you did in the New York Times, but that yearning for flavor comes across not just as like transmitting that culture, but do everything that you do. And so sometimes it's like that thing that we have that you know, we think is our kind of weakness or spot, and we all have that it can be our greatest strength. So you're you know, even if you're not there or I've not been there, you are decoding that and helping people realize that all around the world, and then I think you should. 00:30:07 Speaker 2: Be I've never thought about it that way, but that is a I will start from the sound to kind of look at it that way because it's it is a drive for me to try to do good for that culture. 00:30:20 Speaker 1: Will you do plenty? This episode of Traveling Through is sponsored by Capital One. Capital one cardholders are passionate about unforgettable experiences. Together, we partner to connect these curious travelers to world cultures through expert guided journeys from the peaks of much Epeachu to the grand architecture of Vienna. These once in a lifetime trips take you somewhere truly off the beaten path. Through Capital one Entertainment, eligible cardholders can book exclusive experiences and so much more, all while earning elevated rewards. Savor cardholders earn eight percent cash back and venture X earns five x miles. Thanks to Capital One, your dream getaway is one step closer. Last year, came and visited me in Milan. I think you're one of the first people to come and come and see the terrorists with the little garden and we had a little of perativo. 00:31:08 Speaker 2: That's Milan. I've spent more time than any other sitting in the world outside of New York. Really, I've been to Milan, I don't know forty times. Really, there was a period where I feel like I because I've been going since, I've gone before I was an adult. And last year I think I was there like four times. There was just for some reason, it just has taken me a lot to Milan, and I love Milan. I think it's an underrated city. 00:31:35 Speaker 1: I think you were headed to Liguria actually with Yeah, I was going with my husband and I had been to Liguria before, but I had gone there for a story and that was very you know how it is. 00:31:45 Speaker 2: It's like you're in and you're out, and it was just very quick and I just had to kind of cover the spots that I needed to get to. And this time we had a little more time, and I again I've been likely to kind of travel up and down Italy and I think I have I have a love. I don't want to say hate, but I do have a I have at tension with Italy because it's the country I've spent the most time in and I've been to the most. The attension is the food, design, fashion, and so many things that my favorite beaches, Rocky Bet. I love all of that. I do sometimes have tension of the food, and it's Liguria lesso I loved, I loved the Gloria. I don't have too much tension of the food, but there was a there's the thing that I have to accept, and it's a one way tension. Obviously, if I don't think it is a problem with me, it's that because it's so regional, and because it's so kind of divide in that sense, very Italy is more so than I think most countries. I have to remember that when I'm in a region, you have to accept that there will be a kind of sameness, there will be a kind of let's say, consistency that I will kind of get tired by that I don't feel and maybe in other countries and in Liguria, like I was very happy to have you know, handkerchiefs with dust and pesto and then throw fi with pesto, and then you know, pesto was with every meal and that was totally fine. I wanted to kind of find the best pesto and I had the costu every day, and and there's I have to accept like that, Well, that's like bor in that region and that's this is also what makes this country so great. I think also there's some places like I went to Sicily and Sicily I really built it, built it up and it was incredible. I loved all the kind of water moments. I loved the kind of dairely, kind of the city of Palermo. I love love Palermo. I think like being in Sicily and going to Syracuse, that was just amazing because it felt so ron, It felt just so special and it really felt like, you know, did. 00:33:55 Speaker 1: You guys go to the Katania fish market? By chance? 00:33:57 Speaker 2: I went to the Katani fish market. I spent time ka I mean food and Katani is amazing and it's intense. We drove all we did a fool. Look, we did a fool. There were a lot of things in the in the metal we didn't get to that I wanted to. I think all the kind of we had so much me Keith Do's drink amazing Sicilian wine. I think the pastas. I had some amazing pastas. I think what confused me about my time in Sicily and why I need to go back, was because I left a little bit I would say disappointed, but confused because I felt like this has some of the most incredible produce in the world, and yet there was a kind of a heaviness to the food that I was confused by, and I was kind of searching for more of a kind of maybe lighter, arier moments. But I also had the thing that I think about constantly in the summer, which is Sicilian granita, or I shouldn't say Sicilian grenita, granita, And it was. 00:35:03 Speaker 1: I didn't know this is what you were going to say. I didn't know that we shared an ultimate love of granita. Mulberry granita is my favorite thing in the whole world. 00:35:11 Speaker 2: Albert grinita, fresh almond, I mean fit. 00:35:15 Speaker 1: Too, also fantastic with that earth. 00:35:18 Speaker 2: Yes, I would take that over pretty much over any Italian suite period, and I would definitely take it over gelato. There is having that on its own or with Brioche. It was amazing, I think about it because I've never experienced in the States like that, And I'm not talking about the flavors. I'm talking about really about there's a texture that just I hoped there's something here, but I have not found it yet. Maybe there's something where. 00:35:49 Speaker 1: It's I think you're absolutely right. I think it is one of those things that is and only in it can it is only I don't I don't know why it's so mercurial. On the Aeolian Islands, which the island's north is an island called Selina and has a particular mulberry, the green mulberry. And you know, the thing that I think about with mulberry grenita and mulberry's in general is that they're not shelf stable. They're so fragile. 00:36:15 Speaker 2: No, they're like instant jamous. 00:36:17 Speaker 1: They're just instant like. And so you make it into a green nittas those hot days. It has that unique inky quality and depth of flavor with the pana, with the cream, it's like it is rich. I mean, I don't like to say favorite anything, but I know if I was to refer to anything, it's that. And I have very happy memories around it too. But I couldn't agree with you more. 00:36:42 Speaker 2: There's a creaminess to it without any dairy, without any there's it's it's very confusing, I will say, Like we're talking about mulberries, and the mulberries are also a big part of that area also in Persian culture's right, of course, and dried mulberry's, although I love the fresh ones. I'll say that, but I have to just because it's you. I will sit on the record and I've never admitted this, but when I was at Japanese, no one knew but Sue is the lead pastry chef. They for some reason, even though they had a fridge in there the pastry station, the walk in and one of the walkings backwalking had like the trays where they held their mulberries, and I just would go in because I had to go in. I have brakes, and I just would have to like smack on maulberries. And I only one time they someone did is can you people not eat the mulberries? And I just was like, I will never. 00:37:44 Speaker 1: This is like a moment of I'm really sorry, sorry Alice, but you know it was the day of the year for bestial day, right where they made the lot bridge like ice cream. I went back there and shucked in. There is a photo of me, because I would be the person that that year that would so out of the front of and sell the ice creams. But I pilfered it as well because it was such. It was just that that perfect thing. 00:38:17 Speaker 2: It was pure. 00:38:18 Speaker 1: You couldn't. And you know the other thing about that that mulberry is do you remember the mulberry tree that they oh got it? It was crazy that held up by like I don't know, planks of wood and it was just immense tree. I guess maybe in Sonoma or something that is that is really amazing. 00:38:36 Speaker 2: There is a molberry tree in New York that I that I sometimes will go. It's we're slowly getting at that time, and like another month or two I'll be walking past that tree and but I'll do waiting it. 00:38:47 Speaker 1: I just planted to weeping mulberry's because I want a mini tunnel. I mean, it's ridiculous, but considering I have a terrace. But I I was talking to the nursery and they were like, but you you want a fruiting weeping mulberry because they think of it as ornamental, Like why would you want a fruiting one? Because and to do a tunnel because they're gonna rop, the berries are gonna drop and stain, and that's exactly what I want. I just want it to be messy. I love so I only just did it a couple of weeks ago. Anyway, mulberry's. I mean, I think that food people who really understand like the fragility of a flavor completely get it with a mulberry absolutely. 00:39:28 Speaker 2: I mean it's a I remember, God, We're gonna tak this is the mulberry episode. I remember I gave Keith the mulberry for the first time and he was like, what is this. I was like, think of it as like this kind of like instant jam that it's going to like it just trembles and just in your mouth, like it's so fragile and so delicate and so distinct, Like it's doesn't taste like a BlackBerry. It's definitely doesn't feel a CD. It definitely is more interesting than a raspberry. No hit on raspberry, But I I love it. 00:40:05 Speaker 1: You know, everyone that's a food person needs to, like Italy needs to go to Japan. And I went with my family several years ago, just before the pandemic actually, and I have this memory in Kyoto because you know, Australian family, the time that they can get off really is between Christmas and New Years, and so New Year's is when the whole country is shut down. So it's kind of. 00:40:26 Speaker 2: Like, really, I shut it down yet they are not open. 00:40:31 Speaker 1: No, And I have two like vivid memories on the family spectrum, one of which is in the Kyoto market before the kind of market closed down for the year, there was there's a hoshigaki stand, which are dried per simons, and the dry persums are kind of amazing because you know they eat them at New Year's I believe, or in the festive period, but you know they cut they're a fall fruit, as we know, and they peel the skin and then hang them in like a I guess some moist or maybe dry spot and then massage the sugar's out, and so you get the world's best dried fruit. Maybe you're going to go with dried moulberries, but I'll go with. 00:41:06 Speaker 2: No, no, no there, I would take that of vergi. 00:41:09 Speaker 1: And my sister was a bit of dried fruit. She's also kind of an athlete. Anyway, I went and bought my year's supply of hoshigaki, which by the way is the rolls Royce. Oh, totally, that's right, and comes with a price exactly. So anyway, I'm hidden them away and then she just thinks that she's found a bunch of dates or something or apricots and she eats them all. So that was like I had had a fight with my sister in ten years and then we had a huge blow up in Kyoto about Hoshigaky. So it's called the Hoshigaki affair in my family. But I mean, I'm sure you've got more experience of that than I do. In Kyoto. 00:41:44 Speaker 2: I do think, like I think, if you love food, if you love design, if you love really just anything like Japan is that it should be on your radar. And I had never gone my I went my first time I went. I've gone twice, both times with my husband Keith, and he had gone before. But I think it was it was more work related. 00:42:05 Speaker 1: Yeah, And Keith comes from a design perspective. 00:42:08 Speaker 2: Yes, And he comes from a design perspective and he worked an editorial for me years. And I'm definitely more of a planner in terms of like the travel and so our first time you went, and I'm not someone who wanted to kind of I'm not. I knew I was not going to see and try to go to so many different places and go up and down Japan in the two and a half weeks you were there. But we went to Tokyo. We went to Kyoto and we went to a kind of an onsend town a Kinosaki. It was great Kyoto. We went to the Moss Temple. There a Siho g and part of it, I have to admit the reason why I was so interested because there's so many incredible kind of gardens obviously in all of Japan and especially Kyoto, was because a friend told me like, oh, well, it's very hard to get in, and I was like, I want to get it in, but it was it was like, oh, you have to write to them, or you have to have someone right on your behalf to for them to accept you, because there was a very very short amount of visitors they allow. And then once you're there, you have to kind of spend like ten to fifteen minutes to kind of trace calligraphy, and then once you're done with that, I think you do a prayer and then you could see the garden. So there's definitely a process. I'm thinking about the space because I just got a text message from beca. 00:43:28 Speaker 1: Parish becas a publicist team, yes. 00:43:32 Speaker 2: And your city and did dear friend and I knew that she was going to spend for the first time, and I said, look like you have all the lists, like you don't need my thoughts, but I'm going to tell you one thing. When you're in Kyoto, you go to this place. And she went and she robed me this note just a few days ago, being like, I am so happy and grateful you told me it was the most amazing experience. And I really felt like that there's nothing I've ever seen in my life. 00:44:02 Speaker 1: What was it? Right? 00:44:03 Speaker 2: It was just incredibly vibrant and this verdant green and this calm, which you will kind of expec and said common so many gardens, but it was this kind of evenness and care and you see all the people maintaining it, and it just it's It made me feel actually that the letter, the waiting, the calligraphy, the prayer, it still wasn't enough. Like I would have been happy to go through a lot more obstacles to be granted permission to kind of view this. It was the most common experience I felt throughout that trip. 00:44:41 Speaker 1: Well, can I tell you that, like as a as someone that works in a travel company, the least coming place. 00:44:47 Speaker 2: To work with and for is Japan because they don't want visit. 00:44:51 Speaker 1: For exactly for exactly that reason, and sometimes I think it's like a really good thing to do to have a balance with Japan. My big advice there is you can get those types of experiences or see like a national living treasure, a master at craft, then that's kind of it's. 00:45:08 Speaker 2: Hard to do that. It's hard to get a lot of those though. 00:45:10 Speaker 1: It's very differ Yeah, but also people get a bit of foam when they're in Japan, and and that can be like not the best things. So I think if you know people that get all of those lists from all of their friends too much, it does sometimes disappoint you because you have this sense that something is better around the corner. So I always think, you know, planning is important, a couple of things a day, but don't plan Japan within an inch of your life. I went there last year with Vat after we were in Mongolia, and we're kind of exhausted and we're saying at like, admittedly, one of the best hotels ever, the Bulgare in Tokyo, so super fancy, but we hadn't planned anything and actually, and it was the middle of summer, and actually that was one of the most relaxing things I've ever done in that center of that city precisely because you know there's such a level of quality there, it's very hard to go wrong. But if you're racing around and thinking, oh. 00:46:12 Speaker 2: You're exhausted, I was always every day that first I was exhausted every day in Tokyo, No exactly. 00:46:20 Speaker 1: And I think that like people, you know, if you're you're lucky. Not everyone can go multiple times, but don't jam everything in or try to control it to every degree, because otherwise you're kind of missing out. And I did you think Japan? Is like counterintuitively, that's the way to approach it. 00:46:38 Speaker 2: I think the one thing to remember with Japan and I kind of gathered this after the first trip and applied it to well. The funny thing is, after the first trip, Keith is like, oh, like you love it so much. I love it. I love it so much where during that trip I was like, I'm exciting my trip an extra week without you, and. 00:46:57 Speaker 1: He I remember when you did that. 00:46:58 Speaker 2: I was like, I'm staying in next week without you. He's like why, I'm like, because you don't eat pork or beef, so get out of this country and let me eat all the things, right, And it was perfect and he totally understood. But I remember when I came back, he said, it's like are you said, like, it's probably gonna be like we probably won't go there for a long time, and then we get married the next year and we have our honeymoon in Japan, so it was I was like, no, No, Japan's part of our, part of our life now. But I do have some thoughts on it. For anybody who's going to Japan for the first time, which is like you said, you don't kind of overplan, I'd say one altra thing is like try to end your trip in Tokyo. I don't think to start. I say that because for me, I want to shop, uh and I will shop wherever, but I think, like it's with Tokyo, there's so many things that I end up buying. 00:47:51 Speaker 1: Well, this is what I was going to say. I was going to say to you. 00:47:54 Speaker 2: He had to pull me out. 00:47:55 Speaker 1: He's like, literally the same, because I think it's genius to say actually leaving like ending in a And yeah, I really do, because you know what you're referring to is what I was going to say to you, is like, have you into these basement department store food courts of course you have that is like I mean a wild food experience. 00:48:19 Speaker 2: I would say Japan's probably the only time in my I've definitely did it in my life, but in my thirties where because usually it's been by myself where Keiths will be like are you okay? Are it just like there's this because it's too. 00:48:39 Speaker 1: Muchtially, the same thing happened with feet. He was like, what is going on? 00:48:43 Speaker 2: It's too much because it's like, wait, so all there's all this food. It's all beautiful, it's sweet, it's savory, it's all these different things I want to try, and then there's this other element and it's like it's all gorgeous and it's all perfect looking, and then the things where it's takeaway, it's all wrapped perfectly. So then I'm obsessed with like the paper and every little thing, and I'm just like this is too much simulation, and so like I have to buy a pack of cigarettes and smoke. 00:49:10 Speaker 1: It's like you can get like the perfect musket grape for like the week, or it's the perfect white that's all you're gonna have. Oh my god, I know I went wild there as well. Okay, Andy, we'll do. We'll do a fast few questions at the end, we ask everyone, and the first instinct is the right instincts. I don't ever think it. Where's the place you would always return? 00:49:35 Speaker 2: Paris? 00:49:36 Speaker 1: A place you'd never go back of? 00:49:39 Speaker 2: Marrakesh. Oh oh, I'm not even go to sim said Marrakesh. 00:49:46 Speaker 1: Okay, where's the place you've felt most at home? 00:49:49 Speaker 2: I mean outside of New York? 00:49:51 Speaker 1: Yeah, outside of your home outside, like, there's a lot of places. I hate to say it, Paris, Yeah, well, p most out of place. It's nottcess really a bad thing? Well yeah, favorite hotel or memorable, most memorable hotel? 00:50:09 Speaker 2: Oh post friend Schin. I mean, I think it was just a whole perfect experience. That meal was perfect, the room was perfect, the amount of fall. 00:50:19 Speaker 1: Was perfect, California of it all. 00:50:21 Speaker 2: Yeah, really just it was a reminder of just how you know, I've traveled so much and we'll continue to, but the state that I'm from is really special. 00:50:31 Speaker 1: Okay. So I was thinking I almost want to give you a special dispensation to not answer this question, but I'm going to make you answer it again. First instinct, and rather than favorites, let's say memorable restaurant meal taste. 00:50:44 Speaker 2: Okay, there is a restaurant Kyoto and Zakia place called barang Kat tiny tiny spot, and he sat around the bar. I think there was maybe one two top and it was delicious. I think that was my favorite meal. And I'd say that and souato only because it's in the past couple of years were two restaurant meals I had that were perfect. This soato is also as a Kia spot. The more memorable things I think of in my past are the mundane, the things that are so simple you'd never think. It's like having a pomegranate juice vendor juicing and then comal putting some salt in it and giving it to me to like take a swig. It's like things like that where it's there's an unexpectedness that felt good. 00:51:35 Speaker 1: Museum or cultural institution. 00:51:38 Speaker 2: The Louisiana Museum obviously and just outside of Copenhagen is an amazing one. And the Bordelle Museum in Paris. Oh, it's like all these incredible busts and statues. 00:51:53 Speaker 1: What about shop on market? 00:51:54 Speaker 2: What does that mean? Like either like shop or go to. 00:51:57 Speaker 1: The market, a shop or a market? 00:52:00 Speaker 2: Why shop? Oh? My God, that's so hard. 00:52:06 Speaker 1: Oh, market just like. 00:52:07 Speaker 2: Market wise, it would be honestly, it would be like a fucking like se ten men's in Japan, Like okay, sorry, it's like a complete you know. I loved it. Also, I think shopping has become so sad in so many parts of the world, and not there, it's like amazing and kind of bends. Shopping is like feel I feel like the men have a better there than moment, almost full stop. 00:52:31 Speaker 1: I agree. Where would you most like to spend a weekend, week, month. 00:52:37 Speaker 2: A year. A weekend would be in Iceland, a week would be in Berlin, a month would be in Japan, and a year would be in Paris. 00:52:53 Speaker 1: I asked this question and take it as as you have, however you first understand it. What are you traveling through right now? 00:53:01 Speaker 2: I'd say, uh, this is a year of a lot of big changes and shifts for me personally, and also I would say my career. So I can't get into detail too much quite yet, but I think one of those things is doing another book and finish that up, and I'm excited to kind of bring that to the world and I'll go through that again, and a few other kind of things that I'm I've been working on privately, or I should say, with many others for a while now that eventually I'll be able to kind of share with with everybody soon. 00:53:39 Speaker 1: But big moments coming from Andy. Well, seeing as though I know you're about to finish the book, I'm so grateful for you making all this time to come and chat with my friend. Thank you, and I actually hope that we get to travel together like India. You know, it will either be terrible or amazing. 00:54:00 Speaker 2: No, I will be amazing because we're good eaters. I feel like we're both I think we're both night owls. 00:54:07 Speaker 1: No, actually I'm a morning person. 00:54:09 Speaker 2: But what i'm a morning person a night owls? 00:54:11 Speaker 1: Okay, well then actually that's true. 00:54:12 Speaker 2: I'm like, I get up early, but I also I can say up late. 00:54:15 Speaker 1: Well yes, okay, now I understand what you're saying. No for sure, but we're going to do it. 00:54:21 Speaker 2: I can't wait. Thank your friend, Thank you, thank you so much.