1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: So I was with two uncles and a cousin and 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: we were heading down to Miami for vacation. 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 2: This is Roland Sylvain, and what he's talking about happened 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 2: almost twenty years ago. 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: You know, We're having a good time listening to music. 6 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 2: He's feeling good, sailing down the open road going about 7 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 2: eighty two miles an hour, which is more than the 8 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 2: speed limit. And as he's cruising through Virginia, a police 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 2: car pulls up behind him. 10 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: I just hear the signs behind me, so I just 11 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: pull over. And when I pulled up, I said, oh, man, like, 12 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to get in some serious shof because I 13 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: don't have my license on me. And all the guys 14 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: are like, what what are you talking about? D da 15 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: da da da, And I'm like, I mean, I mean, 16 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: I have my licen but I'm suspended. 17 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 2: From futuro media. It's Latino USA. I'm Maria in a 18 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: horsap today. How a little known change in immigration policy 19 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 2: could turn Roland's traffic stop into a life sentence. Roland 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: Sylvain was born in Haiti, though by the time of 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: his birth in nineteen seventy eight, most of his family 22 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: had one foot out of the country. 23 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: My grandfather actually was the one that started it. He 24 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: had issues in Haiti for political viasas and things like that. 25 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: His grandfather's problems started during the brutal dictatorship of President 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 2: Francois du Vallier, who's usually known as Papa Doc. 27 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 3: Papa Doc allowed no political descent while he ruled, the mortality. 28 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 4: Rate of political prisoners reportedly was the worst in the world. 29 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: He and his son, known as Baby Doc, ruled over 30 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: Haiti from the late nineteen fifties till the mid nineteen eighties. 31 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 5: For the first time in nearly thirty years of Duvalier dictatorships, 32 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 5: Haitians are talking openly about overthrowing their leader. 33 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: Roland doesn't know exactly what went wrong, but by the 34 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: time he was born, his grandfather was building a new 35 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: life for himself in New York City. He was one 36 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: of tens of thousands of Haitians who who came to 37 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: the US around that time. 38 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 6: Patients have been fleeing their island, claiming to be refugees 39 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 6: from political repression. 40 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: Within a few years, Roland's grandfather got settled and was 41 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: able to bring the rest of his family to New 42 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: York legally, and so in December of nineteen eighty five, 43 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: little seven year old Roland boarded a plane in shorts 44 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 2: and a T shirt and flew to John F. Kennedy 45 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: Airport in New York City. And given the time of 46 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 2: the year, New York City was a little bit of 47 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: a shock. 48 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know it was partitive world where it was 49 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: that freezing. 50 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 2: But then a bunch of his relatives pulled up in a. 51 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: Really big van and they had to run at one 52 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: of the stores inside the airport and give us colts. 53 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 2: They bundled him up and welcomed Roland to America. From 54 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: the moment he arrived in the US, Roland was a legal, 55 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: permanent resident, and his life became very American, very quickly. 56 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: After a couple of years living in Brooklyn, his parents 57 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: moved him and his siblings to the New Jersey suburbs. 58 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: Roland finished high school and got a job at a 59 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: chemical plant. 60 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: Became the manager there. Everybody loved me because I was 61 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: the youngest guy. It's a job. 62 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: He started making good money. Then after nine to eleven 63 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: he got laid off for a while, which someone else 64 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: might have seen as a glass half empty kind of situation, 65 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: but Roland he saw freedom. 66 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: I just had fun. I had my full one K. 67 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: I was loaded, so I took my full one K. 68 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: He took off on the road, kept going back and 69 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: forth to. 70 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 2: Montreal, Miami, Atlanta. 71 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: Well, Texas. I did Texas a few times. I was 72 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: a teenager, so I was just enjoying myself. 73 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: And it was on one of these trips that Roland 74 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: got pulled over for speeding. This traffic stop and the 75 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: events that followed would lead Roland's story to collide a 76 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: few years later with another man, a teenager whose unusual 77 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: journey through the United States immigration system has derailed tens 78 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: of thousands of people's lives. We're going to tell you 79 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: both of their stories because the trouble Roland got into 80 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 2: is still haunting him now. It's threatening almost everything he 81 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 2: assumed to be true about his life, and he isn't 82 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: the only one. Our story today is reported in collaboration 83 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: with Documented, a local immigration publication. Here in New York City, 84 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 2: reporters Mazin Sidahmed and Max Siegelbaum teamed up with Latino 85 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: USA producer Alisa Scarse to follow Roland's story. Mazin Sidahmed 86 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: is going to pick up the story here. 87 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 7: Roland says his license has been suspended over an unpaid 88 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 7: parking ticket about a week before he left for Miami, 89 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 7: and he knew he shouldn't been driving. 90 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: But my uncles they were all like dead tired. So 91 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, fine, I'll take y'all drive. 92 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 7: He was driving his uncle's black Mercedes Benz and at 93 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 7: the moment he had the officer's siren go off, he 94 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 7: was driving through Virginia, specifically Hanover County, Virginia, which is 95 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 7: pretty conservative in eighty four percent whites. 96 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: From the time I saw the police officer turn on 97 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: his lights, I said, up, yepan his Benz. Four black guys, 98 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: this is the reason why we getting pulled over. 99 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 7: But of course he pulled over. The officer asked him 100 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 7: to get out of the car, and Roland started panicking. 101 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: I'm scared as hell. And then and then he handed 102 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: me over the three tickets. 103 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 7: Roland remembers, one being for speeding, one for not having 104 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 7: his seatbelt on, and one for not having a proper ID. 105 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 7: And in that moment, Roland made a split second decision 106 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 7: to sign the tickets using his cousin's name. 107 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: So I signed the first two tickets and when I 108 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: got to the third ticket to go sign, I just 109 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: I just confessed the office as dude, I'm so sorry, 110 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: I just panicked lied. 111 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 7: My name is Roland, Roland says. The officer turned around 112 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 7: and he said, you just. 113 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: Earned yourself three felony charges, and then I just was 114 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: like what. 115 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 7: The officer arrested Roland and he was charged with three 116 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 7: counts of forgery one free signature. Roland was booked into 117 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 7: the local jail for a few hours to his family 118 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 7: plosted bail. Then he was free to go. So we 119 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 7: had to go back to Virginia six months later to 120 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 7: go to court. 121 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: And his sentenced me in Virginia for a year and 122 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: six months for east traffic ticket jail time. Jail time 123 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: that was Latina. 124 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 7: USA producer Alisa Scott to say Roland couldn't help, but 125 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 7: wonder if racism was at the root of this whole experience. 126 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 7: But of course he could improve it, and in the 127 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 7: end the jail time was suspended. He just got probation. 128 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 7: He didn't spend a day locked up. Roland headed back 129 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 7: to New Jersey, started a new job, and life went 130 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 7: on as normal. 131 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: A few years later, he met a girl. We met 132 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 1: through family. 133 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 7: Of course, they loved going out to eat and going 134 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 7: club it. Pretty soon they fell in love. Then they 135 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 7: got married. 136 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: We ended up having two beautiful boys. They bought a house, 137 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: bought a car. My life had changed. I wasn't partying 138 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: as much anymore. I wasn't, you know, hanging out with 139 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: the boys anymore, with the fellas. I was just settling down. 140 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 7: Even though he was settling down, Roland still had the 141 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 7: travel bog, and in the summer of twenty eleven, he 142 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 7: booked a trip on a Caribbean cruise with his big 143 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 7: extended family. It was the first time he traveled outside 144 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 7: the country with all of them. 145 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: Being on the ship. My wife and I won like 146 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: the best couples award because she was pregnant, stomachs big 147 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: and word, just doing all the activities and doing all 148 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: types of stuff. 149 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 7: On the last day of the cruise, the ship docked 150 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 7: in Tampa. The family lined up to go through customs 151 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,239 Speaker 7: and Roland pulled out his passport and his green card. 152 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 7: And this was the moment when Roland's life as he 153 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 7: knew it started to go sideways. You have to remember, 154 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 7: at this point, Roland had spent the last twenty six 155 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 7: years living in the US as a legal permanent resident. 156 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 7: He alreally thought of himself as an American, and he 157 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 7: had since he was a little kid, so much so 158 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 7: that applying for a citizenship hadn't crossed his mind. It 159 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 7: just never felt like an urgent thing to do. So 160 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 7: when the customs officer checked his documents and then pulled 161 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 7: him aside, Roland was confused. 162 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: And then another officer came and walked us through the 163 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: bottom of the boat, and I remember asking questions, like 164 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: what's going on? What's going on? 165 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 7: Roland says. The officers took his fingerprints and his green 166 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 7: card and told him he'd find out what was going 167 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 7: on once he got back to New York. 168 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: And when I came back to my family, everyone was 169 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: crying and going because like, what's it about? I have 170 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: no idea. 171 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 7: The family boarded their flight home, and they landed in 172 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 7: New York a couple of hours later. Roland says, an 173 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 7: ice officer met him at the door of the plane 174 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 7: and walks into an immigration office inside the airport. 175 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: And I'm the lady the officer there. She said, do 176 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: you know anything about Virginia? And I said, Virginia, what 177 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: do you mean? And then she just says, well, this 178 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: is something that has with Virginia, and I was like, what, 179 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: no way. I started laughing. I'm like, no way, this 180 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: is impossible. Like Virginia, that case was done already, Like 181 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: I paid my fines, everything was already finished with the woman. 182 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 7: Let Roland go. But a few months later he had 183 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 7: to appear at the immigration court in downtown Manhattan. 184 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: I remember the judge at the time, you know, you're 185 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: calling everybody's name up. I'm like, wait, what this is 186 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: like court for a removal. 187 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 7: Like for deportation. Then the judge called up Rowland. 188 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 6: All right, we're on the record at the Immigration court 189 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 6: in New York City January twenty fourth, twenty twelve. 190 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 7: And the judge starts to explain what's going on. So, 191 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 7: even though Roland was done with Virginia as far as 192 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 7: the criminal justice system was concerned, now he was being 193 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 7: prosecuted for those same crimes by the Department of Homeland Security. 194 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 6: They're saying on the basis of those criminal cases that 195 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 6: you could be removed or deported from the United States. 196 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 6: So this is a serious matter. You could lose your 197 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 6: residence status and have to leave the country. 198 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: I was like, what traffic tickets. 199 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 7: But in Roland's case, traffic tickets were not just traffic tickets. 200 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 7: That's because back in nineteen ninety six, Congress passed a 201 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 7: couple of laws that made it so that a wide 202 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 7: range of criminal convictions, including things like marijuana possession and 203 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 7: in one case I read about shoplifting diapers, if you 204 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 7: did those things and you were an immigrant, it could 205 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 7: trigger mandatory deportation. So ever since then, really small crimes 206 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 7: have led to really serious consequences for people who are 207 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 7: not citizens. Enforcement of those laws has gone more and 208 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 7: more sophisticated over the years, which probably explains why it 209 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 7: took a while for Roland to end up in deportation 210 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 7: proceedings after his conviction in Virginia. But when Roland walked 211 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 7: off that cruise ship and went through customs, it triggered 212 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 7: the enforcement system and it came crashing down on him. 213 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 6: Yes, that's everything I wanted to explain to you. Do 214 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 6: you have anything else that you need to ask me. 215 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 7: At this time? 216 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: No? No, y'ah okay. 217 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 7: The hearing ends and the judge tells Roland to get 218 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 7: a lawyer, which he does. They show up for his 219 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 7: next hearing a few months later and it was a. 220 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 8: Speeding ticket where he used an alias. 221 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 7: That's Roland's lawyer. 222 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 9: He didn't forge the speeding ticket, No, no, no, he. 223 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 8: Forged his legs. I mean he forged someone else's name 224 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 8: on the ticket. 225 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 6: It looks like they got three counts out of this 226 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 6: if you've given the way they allege it right. 227 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 7: The judge says, it looks like that conviction for signing 228 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 7: his cousin's name on those tickets, it could get him 229 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 7: a deportation order. It was after this second hearing that 230 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 7: it hit Rolin that what he was dealing with wasn't 231 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 7: some little administrative issue. 232 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 1: I'm going to go home and crying. I'm going to 233 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: go home and crying and crying. I grab Jolin and 234 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: I was just holding on to Jolan, which is my son. 235 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 7: The immigration cases take a while, and over the next 236 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 7: two years, Roland had to live with the possibility of 237 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 7: being sent back to a country where he doesn't know anyone. 238 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 7: He hasn't been to Haiti since he was seven, and 239 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 7: the stress of that possibility is I had to just 240 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 7: take over his mind. 241 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't sleep, I was just overthinking everything. 242 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 7: He had chest pains, it was so bad. He had 243 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 7: to go to the doctor. He got really depressed. 244 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: It pretty much broke up my family because it put 245 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: a lot of stress on my wife. I was completely 246 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: out of it. 247 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 7: Eventually, he and his wife got divorced, and Roland found 248 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 7: himself without a place to live. 249 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: Walked around with a black bag, with a big black 250 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: garbage bag, and I would stay at one family member's 251 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: house and like, okay, Roland, well how long you're going 252 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: to be staying here? You know, he can't stay here 253 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: for long. I'll just pack up a black bag and 254 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: go to a next family member's house. 255 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 7: But while all of this was happening, Roland's case also 256 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 7: started to get some attention. There were articles about him 257 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 7: in the Atlantic and a few other places. 258 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: Then I'm getting phone calls at like six in the morning, Roland, 259 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: what was going on while you're on the news? And 260 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: d D D da da da da. 261 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 7: At one point he went down to DC with an 262 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 7: advocacy group to tell his story to members of Congress. 263 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: Each congressman that we met with, you know, the first 264 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: thing he would say was anybody want to drink? And 265 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: I would say yeah. 266 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 7: He made some friends, He says he even got some 267 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 7: letters of support from members of Congress, and on. 268 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: The day of the final hearing, I'm the judge saying like, oh, 269 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: you've got some good people behind you. 270 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 5: Huh. 271 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: I see you've made the news. You're pretty popular these days. 272 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 7: Roland was terrified as he waited for the hearing to start. 273 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 6: We're on the record the Immigration Court, New York City. 274 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 7: But then the judge is something that Roland did not 275 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 7: see coming. 276 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 6: So the parties have reached an agreement for administrative closure 277 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 6: based on prosecutorytorial discretion. Right, So, sir, your case is 278 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 6: going to be administratively closed. 279 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 7: After almost three years of going to court over and 280 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 7: over again and watching his whole life fall apart, Roland's 281 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 7: case was closed. 282 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 6: Now just briefly. That doesn't mean you win the case. 283 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 6: It doesn't mean you lose the case. It means really 284 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 6: nothing has happened. 285 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 7: What the judge did here is something called administrative closure, 286 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 7: which is basically when judges put a case on pause indefinitely. 287 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 7: At the time, judges would do this for a variety 288 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 7: of reasons, mostly to keep their case loads manageable, though 289 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 7: the Obama administration sometimes used it as a way to 290 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 7: cut people a little slack If they didn't think it 291 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 7: was a priority to deport them. It wasn't a full 292 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 7: proof solution. Roland's case could be reopened for really any 293 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 7: reason at all. But in that moment, as the case 294 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 7: was being closed, Roland just felt relief. 295 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: And I was happy afterwards, and I'm going home that night, 296 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: and I cried and cried and cried and cried and cried. 297 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 7: Over the next few years, Roland got a new job 298 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 7: and an apartment back in New York City. He started 299 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 7: dating a little, and then one day, while he was 300 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 7: at work, he got an email from his. 301 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: Old lawyer saying that my case has been put back 302 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: on the calendar. 303 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 7: This was July of twenty eighteen, almost four years after 304 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 7: his case was closed. And what this meant was, Roland, 305 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 7: I took go back to the immigration court. His case 306 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 7: was being reopened. 307 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: I remember reading this email and shaking, and I ran 308 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: outside and smoked like twenty cigarettes, back to back to 309 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: back to back to back to back to back, NonStop. 310 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 7: And kind of like the first time. It just didn't 311 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 7: make sense to him. 312 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: I didn't get in trouble. Why nothing happened? Is this 313 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: this must be a mistake. 314 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 7: The email didn't explain what was going on Except for 315 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 7: this one clue at detail. 316 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: I think it did mention something about Castro. 317 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 7: Roland's case was being reopened because of a decision by 318 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 7: then Attorney General Jeff Sessions called the matter of Castro too. 319 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 4: Coming up. 320 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: On Let you Know, USA, We're gonna leave Roland Sylvain's 321 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: story for a moment to track down the mysterious man 322 00:15:51,600 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: whose case dragged Roland back into court. Stay with us, Look, yes, hey, 323 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 2: we're back. And before the break we met Roland Sylvain, 324 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: a Haitian American man who finds himself facing the possibility 325 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: of deportation a decade after he signed his cousin's name 326 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: on three traffic tickets. Now, let you Know USA producer 327 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 2: Alisa s Garsi is going to take us to Pennsylvania 328 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: in search of another man, a man Roland has never met, 329 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 2: but whose story has altered the course of Roland's life. 330 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: Alisa has been reporting this story in collaboration with Mazin 331 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 2: Si Docment and Max Siegelbaum from Documented, and Alisa is 332 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 2: going to pick up the story. 333 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 8: Now, the reason Roland got called back into court was 334 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 8: because of this man who the US government lost track 335 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 8: of a few years ago. When he was a teenager. 336 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 8: His name is Rainaldo Castro Tum. 337 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 9: What we know is he came here when he was seventeen. 338 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 8: We talked about his case with an immigration lawyer in Philadelphia, 339 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 8: a guy named Matthew Archimbo. What he knows about Ronaldo 340 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 8: comes from government documents. 341 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 9: Sun and Company minor from Guatemala. 342 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,479 Speaker 8: So in June of twenty fourteen, this was during the 343 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 8: Obama administration, Rinaldo arrived at the US border. He was 344 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 8: one of almost sixty four thousand and unaccompanied miners who 345 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 8: showed up at the border that year, and the vast 346 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 8: majority were from Central America. 347 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 5: It is a huge humanitarian crisis on the border right now, 348 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 5: a gigantic, unprecedented surge of miners, most without parents or guardians, 349 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 5: crossing our southern border on their own by the thousands. 350 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 8: Rinaldo was picked up by border patrol. 351 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 9: He gave the border patrol an address. 352 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 8: That address was for his brother in law, who lived 353 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 8: in a farming town in western Pennsylvania. Rinaldo was planning 354 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 8: to live with him while he waited for an immigration 355 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 8: judge to consider his case. The government sent him off 356 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 8: to Pennsylvania. 357 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 9: The only verification only address that he really had was 358 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 9: the address that he gave to the Border patrol. 359 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 8: And that address became important a couple months later when 360 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 8: Rinaldo was supposed to show up an immigration court because 361 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 8: the notice telling him his court date was sent in 362 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 8: the mail. Rinaldo was assigned to a court in Philadelphia, 363 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 8: but when his hearing date came around in the fall 364 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 8: of twenty fourteen, he didn't show, so the judge rescheduled 365 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 8: the case, but Rainaldo didn't show again. So then this judge, 366 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 8: his name is Stephen Morley, he asked the government. 367 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 9: Can you get me verification that they verified this address 368 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 9: and this is the address that he went to. 369 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 8: Judge Morley was worried that Rainaldo wasn't showing up because 370 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 8: he hadn't gotten the letters saying he had to come 371 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 8: to court, and after four more hearings, he still wasn't 372 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 8: convinced that the government had the right address. 373 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 9: So at some point Morley got frustrated and said, listen, 374 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 9: I'm going to close this case and I'm gonna put 375 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 9: it on my shelf. When you get that verification for me, 376 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 9: let me know. 377 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 8: Morley closed the case the same way Roland's judge closed 378 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 8: his by using administrative closure, basically to hit pause till 379 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 8: the government got the address thing sorted out. But then 380 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 8: the government appealed the case. And this is where things 381 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 8: get kind of unusual. It's because the guy in charge 382 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 8: of the whole immigration court system at the time, Attorney 383 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 8: General Jeff Sessions, he picked up this case and said, actually, 384 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 8: I'm going to decide this one myself, and his decision 385 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 8: would affect way more than just Rainaldo's case. It would 386 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 8: change the rules for every other case as well. 387 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 9: To say that, you know, basically judges can't exercise their 388 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 9: own independent judgment. So no more administrative closure, no. 389 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 8: More administrative closure for anybody, no more putting cases on 390 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 8: the shelf. Rinaldo's case got sent back to that judge 391 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 8: in Philadelphia, Stephen Morley, and he was told to reschedule 392 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 8: the hearing for just a couple weeks later. If Rinaldo 393 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 8: didn't show again, the judge was supposed to order him 394 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 8: deported even if he didn't know about the hearing because 395 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 8: of that wrong address. And to Matthew Archimbau, all of 396 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 8: this seemed unfair. 397 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 9: It's like, well, why would you have to pick this 398 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 9: case a kid that's unrepresented? Why not pick many of 399 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 9: the thousands of cases where there are attorneys that can 400 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 9: actually advocate for their client. So that's what kind of 401 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 9: drove me to like, can we find cast for Tom? 402 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 9: And then if not, what are we going to do? 403 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 8: You were thinking like, let's find this kid and I'll 404 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 8: be his lawyer. 405 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 9: Yeah, and then we can go to court and go hey, 406 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 9: here we are kind of like screw it all up. 407 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 8: Archin Boat sent out a message to some other lawyers saying, 408 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 8: let's go find Rainaldo, kestro Tom, and he got connected 409 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 8: to a paralegal from a nonprofit who happened to live 410 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 8: near Raynaldo's now notorious address, and one afternoon she set 411 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 8: out with a colleague to find him. 412 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: So, you know, when you trip down the road, you 413 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 3: see some trailer parks. You see a lot of trailer parks. 414 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 8: This is that paralegal or former paralegal. She's in law 415 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 8: school now. Her name is Mana Aliabadi. 416 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,239 Speaker 3: You see a lot of churches. I've seeing a lot 417 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 3: of like pro life billboards or like make America great again, 418 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:55,479 Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. 419 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 8: Mana drove for about an hour and she found the 420 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 8: address inside one of those trails parks. 421 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 3: So yeah, we knocked on the door. 422 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 8: Nobody answered, so she left a note, and a little 423 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 8: while later she got a. 424 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 3: Call and it was this guy that said, oh, I 425 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 3: just got home. I got your note that you left 426 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 3: about Ranaldough. So we're like, oh, okay, we got to 427 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 3: go back. 428 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 8: She drove back to the address and she says she 429 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 8: was greeted by an older Mexican man. 430 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: Who said, I just bought this trailer from the previous owner. 431 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 3: I don't know this specific person, but I do know 432 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,479 Speaker 3: that there were a group of five or six workers 433 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 3: that were living here and they were from Central America. 434 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 8: The man didn't know where the previous owners had gone, 435 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 8: but he gave Mana another clue. 436 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 3: He said they all at some point worked at a 437 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 3: specific store in Washington County, so he said maybe if 438 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 3: you go there, they'll have more information. 439 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 8: Mana drove to the store with her colleague. It was 440 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 8: a Latino grocery store and she'd actually met one of 441 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 8: the clerks before, so she walked in, found the clerk 442 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 8: and said, Hey, we were wondering have you heard of 443 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 8: this guy Rainaldo Castro Tom. 444 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 3: And she kind of looked at me and didn't say anything, 445 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 3: and I said, okay, so I think she knows something, 446 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: but maybe she doesn't want to say. 447 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 8: The clerk disappeared to the back of the store for 448 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 8: a second, and when she came back she said, nope, 449 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 8: I don't know that person. I was like, okay, something 450 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 8: is going on here. The clerk seemed to notice that 451 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 8: Mana was disappointed and that she wasn't totally convinced, and. 452 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 3: She said, but there's that guy that works here. He's 453 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 3: in the back right now. He might know him. And 454 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 3: I said okay. 455 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 8: Mana walked to the back of the store and. 456 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 3: This guy is like stocking shells and were like hi. 457 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 3: He looks like really worried. 458 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 8: Mana tells him they're looking for Rainaldo, and the guy 459 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 8: still looks worried. So she tries to reassure him like, 460 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 8: we're not from the government. 461 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 3: We just really want to make sure that he shows 462 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 3: up to court because it's really important. 463 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 8: Finally the man says, no, I don't really know him, 464 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 8: and then. 465 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 3: He's like, okay, hold on a second, I'll be back, 466 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,719 Speaker 3: and then he went and we were waiting, and we're waiting, 467 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 3: we're waiting. 468 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 8: They bought something, waited some more. Finally they gave up 469 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 8: and headed back to the car. 470 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 3: And so as we're leaving this store, he's at the side, 471 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 3: like smoking a cigarette, and he just looks at us 472 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 3: and looks away. So, yeah, that was kind of it. 473 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 9: Do you think he was in the back of that store. 474 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 8: That's Max Siegelbaum who reported this story with me. 475 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know. I don't think he 476 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 3: himself was, but I do think the person we talked 477 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 3: to either knew him or was related to him. Will 478 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 3: never be sure. 479 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 8: Mana has spent a lot of time in the communities 480 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 8: around rain all those addresses, and she says that for 481 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 8: a lot of people, staying anonymous is a conscious choice. 482 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 3: At a certain point, you know, you kind of got 483 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 3: to respect people living in these communities and their witches 484 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 3: to like not talk about these things, because usually even 485 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 3: if you do participate or engage with the legal system, 486 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 3: it's likely that you won't get the outcome you want. 487 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 8: Back in Philadelphia, Matthew archimbau knew Rainaldo's immigration court hearing 488 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 8: was coming up pretty quick, and one day, a couple 489 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 8: of weeks after the Attorney General's decision to reopen Rainaldo's case, 490 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 8: I thought. 491 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 9: Let me talk about one eight hundred number to say like, 492 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 9: did they schedule a hearing? And I dial it and 493 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 9: all of a sudden I realized that they scheduled a 494 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 9: hearing and it was for the next day, and I thought, okay, 495 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 9: what can I do? And I'm like, well, I don't 496 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 9: have him. 497 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 8: You didn't find Rainaldo, so scratch Plan A. 498 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 9: I'm like, well, what if I go as a friend 499 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 9: of the court. 500 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 8: A friend of the court that's when a lawyer can 501 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 8: make arguments in a case where they don't have a client. 502 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 8: Perfect Plan B. So the next day, Archimbau walked down 503 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 8: to the court. It's just a few blocks from his office, 504 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 8: and as he walked into the court, he noticed it 505 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 8: was a little busier than usual. 506 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 9: The court is kind of filling up with immigration attorneys 507 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 9: who had no business being there other than to watch me. 508 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 8: It seemed like word had gotten around about Archimbau's plan. 509 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 9: So Judge Morley walked in. 510 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 8: Remember he was the judge who had closed Rinaldo's case. 511 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 8: Archimbo says, they've known each other for a long time. 512 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 9: This is a big case for him, and he knows 513 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 9: the import of the decision from the Attorney General, and 514 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 9: he's like, oh, mister Arschiwall. He's like, do you have 515 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 9: a client? And I said not really so and he's like, okay, okay, okay, 516 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 9: let me sit down. 517 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 8: And the hearing began. 518 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 5: Immigration Judge Stephen Morley presiding the removal proceedings of Ronaldo 519 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 5: Rinaldo Castro tom. 520 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 8: The judge starts the hearing by addressing Archimba, have you been. 521 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 9: In communication with your client? You have your friend to 522 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 9: the courts. We have attempted. 523 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 8: Archimbau explains Mana's trip out the trailer park, and he 524 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 8: says he's worried that Rainaldo still doesn't know he's supposed 525 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 8: to be. 526 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 9: Here, and we want to make sure that he gets 527 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 9: the fair notice that he is due under the law 528 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 9: and in concorts with a due process. 529 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 8: And I could go on, so Bo, Archimbo's known for 530 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 8: joking around in the courtroom. 531 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 7: I'm sure you could. 532 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 8: It seems like Archimbo and Judge Morley agree that Rainaldo 533 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 8: getting a deportation order when he probably doesn't even know 534 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 8: he needs to be here. That doesn't feel right. But 535 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 8: the government lawyer, he's the guy who's prosecuting Rainaldo here, 536 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 8: he disagrees. 537 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 7: I would move to proceed an absension. I don't believe. 538 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 8: He says that if Ronaldo doesn't show that day, the 539 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 8: judge should go ahead and order him deported no more delays. 540 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 8: But Judge Morley thinks giving him one more shot is 541 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 8: only fair. 542 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: The problem is the address in the problem all along. 543 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 8: So he postpones the case one more time for just 544 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 8: a couple months. And he closed this is by addressing 545 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 8: arch and Bo with a little joke of his own, and. 546 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 7: He klin of the consequences. 547 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 9: I was failed to appear. 548 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 8: This decision wouldn't be without consequences. After the hearing, Archimbo 549 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 8: walked up to Judge Morley to get some paperwork. 550 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 9: Then he just looked at me and he said like, 551 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 9: I think I'm gonna catch some shit for this, and 552 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 9: he did. He did, And I think this is where 553 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 9: the story becomes more consequential for immigration courts. 554 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 8: A few days later, Matthew Archimbau went online to file 555 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 8: some paperwork for right now those next hearing. 556 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 9: And what I noticed is a few days later Judge 557 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 9: Morley was off the case and it listed Judge ned. 558 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 8: Carney, Judge d Poly ned Carney. 559 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 9: Judge ned Carney. I came to find out at headquarters. 560 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 9: She's in a a judge who works out of headquarters 561 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 9: in Virginia. 562 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 8: She was going to travel all the way to Philadelphia 563 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 8: to hear Rainaldo's case one case. 564 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 9: She took the train up, drove up. I don't know 565 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 9: how she got here for one case. 566 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 8: So July of twenty eighteen year old, around the date 567 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 8: of Rainaldo's next hearing, and Archimba says the court was 568 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 8: also pretty crowded this time. Judge ned Carney walked in. 569 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 10: This is a removal proceeding being conducted a mamber of 570 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 10: Rinaldo pastro tune. 571 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 8: From the get go. The tone of this hearing is 572 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 8: a little different from the last one. No jokes this time. 573 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 10: Turning to today's hearing, it is now. 574 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: One eight. 575 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 10: And the respondent still now in the courtroom. 576 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 8: They had called Ronaldo's name in the waiting room, but 577 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 8: he's still not here. 578 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 10: The government requested that the court proceed in absentia if 579 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 10: the responded failed to appear today. Mister Scott is that 580 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 10: the government's position. 581 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 8: Mister Scott is the government attorney? 582 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 9: Yeah? 583 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 7: Sure? 584 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 8: Then Judge ned Carney turns to her computer and starts 585 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 8: reading her decision. 586 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 10: Mean I found by clear unequivocal and convincing evidence that 587 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 10: the respondent is removable from the United States, and I 588 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 10: will order his removal from the United States to Guatemala. 589 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 8: That's it, Rinaldo Castrotomb is ordered deported. 590 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 10: Is there anything for them, mister Scott not from digs. 591 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 8: For most of this hearing, Archimbau has been sitting there silently, 592 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 8: but he jumps in at the end. 593 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 11: We do want to raise concerns with the manner that 594 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 11: his case was handled, in the fact that Judge Morley 595 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 11: was taken off this matter. 596 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 8: He's like, it really seems like the government was trying 597 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 8: to send a message to immigration judges here that they 598 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 8: better be in locksed up with what the Attorney General 599 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 8: had in mind, or else they could get pulled off 600 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 8: their cases. 601 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 11: And as I parted, the fact that Attorney General Sessions 602 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 11: would choose this case on a companied minor, he's unrepresented 603 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 11: as a seminal case on these issues, it is quite 604 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 11: frankly disturbing. 605 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 9: And I dare say discussed. 606 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 11: I thank you for coming to Philadelphia, Okay, thank you. 607 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 9: And it was I don't know, I didn't expect anything different. 608 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 8: He figured that at this point any judge would have 609 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 8: ordered Raynaldo deported, even Judge Morley. Since the Attorney General's 610 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 8: decision on Kestro Tomb, there have been a whole series 611 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 8: of other decisions that have pushed immigration judges to do 612 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 8: exactly what the Trump administration dictates. It's made it harder 613 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 8: and harder for them to make independent decisions. They have 614 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 8: to toe the line. And this might partly answer this 615 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 8: question that I kept thinking about, which was why Ranald 616 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 8: Soocestro Tomb? Why this kid who had done nothing wrong, 617 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 8: who had broken the laws, and who nobody had had 618 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 8: any contact with. And we can't really know, but Archi 619 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 8: Andbo seems to think that Sessions kind of picked it 620 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 8: out at random. 621 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 9: I mean, he wanted to talk about administrative closure and 622 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 9: was probably just one that they picked out. 623 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 8: But at this point for Archimba Ronaldo Caster toom the 624 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 8: man has become a low key obsession. Even now, a 625 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 8: couple of years after the end of the case. 626 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 9: It's funny every time I have a client from Guatemala. 627 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 9: The last thing I asked you that, by the way, 628 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 9: do you know Rinaldo Castertoten. 629 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 8: We wanted to hear the judges perspective on this, and 630 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 8: we reached out to the immigration court system to try 631 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 8: to talk to Judge Morley and Judge ned Karney about 632 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 8: the case, but we were told that immigration judges don't 633 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 8: give interviews. So I sat down with Ashley Tabador. 634 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 12: It needs to be clear that I'm speaking to you 635 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 12: in my capacity as the president of the National Association 636 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 12: of Immigration Judges. 637 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 8: Yes, she is a two, but she's allowed to speak 638 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 8: to us as a union representative and she's not a 639 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 8: fan of the Castor Tomb decision for a bunch of reasons, 640 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 8: one of which is that now prosecutors and judges can't 641 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 8: look at a case and say, you know, it's not 642 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 8: a priority to deport this person, why don't we close 643 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 8: their case for now? 644 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 12: So it took out the humanitarian part. It took out 645 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 12: the ability for the prosecutor to exercise any compassion or 646 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 12: really considered the humanitarian element of the case. 647 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 8: We've heard from lawyers who represent immigrants that a number 648 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 8: of their clients who had had cases administratively closed, sometimes 649 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 8: for years, have had them reopened. 650 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 12: Well, the cases that have been administratively close after Castro 651 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 12: Tomb are technically now should be reopened. 652 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 8: Which meant that more than three hundred and fifty thousand 653 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 8: people could now get sucked back into deportation proceedings. In practice, 654 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 8: not all all of their cases have been reopened. We 655 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 8: don't know exactly how many have, but it's probably in 656 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 8: the tens of thousands, and an ICE official recently said 657 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 8: at a conference that the government is looking to use 658 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 8: the free time they've had during the pandemic to double 659 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 8: down on reopening cases. Which gets us back to Roland. Sylvaine. 660 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 1: Well, we doing the test one right now, I guess 661 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: we say. 662 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 8: Hey, Roland. 663 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 5: Hi. 664 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 8: The first time Mazen and I talked to Roland was 665 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 8: back in January, before the pandemic, so I caught up 666 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 8: with him again a few weeks ago. Immigration cases are slow, 667 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 8: and not much has happened in his case since it 668 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 8: got reopened two years ago, but his final hearing is 669 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 8: coming up in March of twenty twenty one, and the 670 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 8: stakes are really high. Without administrative closure, our legal system 671 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 8: doesn't have a lot of options for Roland to get 672 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 8: to stay in the US. But whenever the looming threat 673 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 8: of deportation pops into Roland's mind these days, he tries 674 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 8: to shut down the thought fast. 675 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: Because, you know, the first time around. When I dealt 676 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: with this case, I didn't played a mental trick as 677 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: much that it was. It literally ate me up. 678 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 8: And he doesn't want to let it eat him up 679 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 8: again because in the time since his case was reopened, 680 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 8: he's built a new happy life. 681 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: You know, I've met a woman of my dreams. 682 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 8: And Roland is in love. 683 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 4: We both had a mutual best friend. 684 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 8: This is Lily, Lily and Henry. 685 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 4: And for like, I would say, two years, he was 686 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 4: hunting me down on social media, liking my pictures. 687 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 8: Lily ignored those likes for a while, but then she 688 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 8: noticed a funny coincidence. Roland's birthday is the day before 689 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 8: her mother's, which she took as a sign. 690 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 4: So I was like, oh, maybe he is the man. 691 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 4: So I sent them a happy birthday on two different 692 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,919 Speaker 4: social media free it was two, it was about four, 693 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 4: it was two. 694 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 8: I wasn't able to fact check the specifics of this. 695 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: After she wished me happy birthday on like, I don't know, 696 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: four or five different four or five different social media outlets, 697 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 1: and I said, Okay, she wants me for sure. 698 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 8: When they finally connected, they talked on the phone for 699 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 8: two days straight, which let them cover a lot of ground, Like. 700 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 9: I love martial arts. He loves that too. 701 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's all about her daughter and I'm all 702 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: about my kids. We really just got along. 703 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 4: I felt like he was the mirror image of myself. 704 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 8: During those conversations. Roland told Lily about his immigration case. 705 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 4: And it was one of those things like, gosh, do 706 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 4: I stay or do I jump ship? 707 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 8: Because that sounds a little complicated and very unfair. But 708 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 8: she didn't jump ship. They actually got married a couple 709 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 8: months ago, and his case is part of her life now. 710 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 4: It's like a kryptonite in this house. We don't talk 711 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 4: about what if it doesn't work out. We just don't 712 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 4: address it. But his mother and I have talked about 713 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 4: what if it doesn't work out, what plans we have 714 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 4: set up. We've discussed that because, to be a fair 715 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 4: with you, neither one of us know the country. 716 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 8: Lily was also born in Haiti, and she also immigrated 717 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 8: as a young child. I can't even speak the language fluidly. 718 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 8: Roland can't speak the language fluidly either, and he worries 719 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 8: about how people will see him if he does get 720 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 8: sent back. 721 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: If you're someone that you know, like they say, you 722 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: made it to the promised Land. You made it to 723 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: America and you ended up being deported back to your country. 724 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 1: People usually look at you as being like the bottomless, worthless, 725 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 1: like you know, like, how did you mess that up? 726 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: What did you do? 727 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 8: He's scared that people are going to look at him 728 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 8: and assume that he committed a serious crime. 729 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: You know, you're a murderer or you or your you know, 730 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: robber or drug diller or you would never understand it's 731 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: related to traffic, right, I mean even now, even even 732 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: here in America, trying to explain it to like family members, 733 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,879 Speaker 1: or trying to explain it to like, you know, even 734 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: a few friends and stuff like that, automatically, it's like 735 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: rolling a ligne. What did you do? 736 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 8: For now, all Roland can do is try to explain 737 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 8: it and wait. There's only a few more months till 738 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 8: that final hearing. Roland could find himself back in Haiti 739 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 8: soon as a punishment for writing his cousin's name on 740 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 8: three traffic tickets two decades ago, but he's trying not 741 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 8: to think about that. 742 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 2: In some parts of the country, the matter of castro 743 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 2: Thumb has been ruled unlawful, but not in New York 744 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 2: and now the Trump administration is looking at new rules 745 00:38:48,760 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 2: to eliminate administrative closure everywhere. This episode was produced by 746 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 2: Alissa Scarce Marza and Sidachmed and Max Siegelbaum. It was 747 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 2: reported in partnership with the Wayne Barrett Project at Type 748 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 2: Investigations and was edited by Luis Trees. The Latino USA 749 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 2: team includes Mier Massis, Julieta Martinelli, Gini Montago, and Alejandra Salasad, 750 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 2: with help from Andrea Lobes Grussado, Adriana Tapiak and ra Wulferez. 751 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 2: Fact checking by Hannah Beckler and Mary Reddock. Special thanks 752 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 2: to Type Investigations editor Sarah Bluestain, as well as Jessica Rofe, 753 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 2: Jonathan Greenspeth, Denish McCoy, Alissa Wellick, Kendall, Nistead, Nimi Sankoff, 754 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 2: Matthew Lamberti, and Max Mitchell from the Legal Intelligencer in Philadelphia. 755 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 2: Our engineers are Stephane Lebau, Julia Caruso, and Leah Shaw. 756 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 2: Our Director of Programming in operation is Natalia Filhodz. Our 757 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 2: digital editor is Luis Luna. Our New York Women's Foundation 758 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 2: Ignite fellow is Julia Rocha. Our interns are jimel Serro 759 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 2: and Emil Sekiros. Our theme music was composed by Zanarinos. 760 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 2: If you like the music you heard on this episode, 761 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 2: stop by Latinousa dot org and check out our weekly 762 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 2: Spotify playlist. I'm your host and executive producer Marieojosa. Join 763 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 2: us again on our next episode, and in the meantime, 764 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 2: look for us on all of your social media. I'll 765 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 2: see you there. 766 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 7: Asta approxima TAO. 767 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 13: Funding for Latino USA is coverage of a culture of 768 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 13: health is made possible in part by a grant from 769 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 13: the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Latino USA is made possible 770 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 13: in part by the Annie Casey Foundation, creates a brighter 771 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 13: future for the nation's children by strengthening families, building greater 772 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 13: economic opportunity, and transforming communities, and the wind Coat Foundation. 773 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. 774 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 2: By Maria no Josa. Next time on Latino USA. Puerto 775 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 2: Rican experimental duo Busca Muya and their return to the 776 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 2: island with their album Regressa That next time on Latino USA.