WEBVTT - US/Canada Relations Under Trump, Why Are We Here Author, Water Conservation 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:10.840 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Bloomberg Business Week, 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:14.400 insight from the reporters and editors that bring you America's 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:19.119 most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:23.240 news as it happens. Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.120 and Tim Stenevek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.000 It is Bloomberg Business Week. That's Carol Masser. I'm Tim Stenevek. 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:32.600 We talked a little bit about Japan. We did Minski 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.879 trip in Japan. Yeah, let's bring it a little closer. 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:36.680 To home, a little bit closer. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.400 Okay, talk Mexico and Canada, specifically our neighbor Canada, because 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.040 President Donald Trump signaled plans to impose previously threatened tariffs 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.360 on as much as twenty five percent on Mexico and 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.199 Canada by February first. He reiterated his contention that America's 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.520 closest neighbors and largest trading partners are letting undocumented migrants 0:00:54.920 --> 0:01:00.480 and drugs flood into the United States. In Mexico have 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.800 said they'd retaliate against American goods if Trump slaps tariffs 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:06.360 on them. The USMCA, by the way, it's that trade 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.600 deal that Trump negotiated during his first term that's up 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.720 for review in twenty twenty six. Marion Carter is principal 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.080 at Earnscliffe Strategies. It's a firm that does government relations. 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.560 They do strategic communications and more for many companies, including 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:23.560 those US companies that do business in Canada as well 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.360 as those Canadian counterparts, those that do business and operate 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.800 in the US. Marianne joins US from Key West, Florida 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.880 this afternoon. Marian, good to have you with us. What 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.360 are you hearing from your clients, those Canadian companies that 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:39.920 operate here in the US and also the US companies 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:41.640 that have business in Canada? What are you hearing from 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.440 them right now as this threat of tariff looms? 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.880 I think, thanks Fritall, thanks for having me. There's a 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:55.480 lot of concerns, you know, as you both know, business 0:01:55.560 --> 0:02:01.760 like certainty. And when President Trump even provided the mere 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:09.040 threat of putting on tariffs several weeks ago, many questions 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:13.640 were when, how is this just a negotiating tactic looking 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:17.400 ahead to the review of USMCA in twenty twenty six. 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.440 But now he's come out and said that as at 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:26.000 February first, he intends to impose these tariffs, and I 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.800 think there is significant concern on both sides of the 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:35.200 border regarding how this will impact consumers directly, but also 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:37.120 the cost of business increasing. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:42.239 I did mention that the President said that America's closest 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.000 neighbors and largest trading partners are letting undocumented migrants and 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.920 drugs flood into the US. Our team here at Bloomberg 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.040 reporting that last year there were just over a million 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.080 encounters with illegal border crossers by US border patrol at 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.200 the US Mexico border, but in Canada they were only 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.000 twenty two, three hundred and sixty nine, so not many. 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.280 That's according to data from the CPB. When it comes 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.480 to fentanyl, the US Border Service sees about twenty thousand, 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.079 six hundred pounds of fetanyl at the Mexico US border 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:11.480 and then fifty pounds at the Canada US border. 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.120 All Right, So that's interesting for a little perspective in 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.120 terms of the concerns that have been voiced by President Trump. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.160 And then you know, in terms of what we might 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:22.440 see in terms of tariffs. 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.799 Marian, I mean, there are things. 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.040 That President Trump will say, and then there's the things 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.560 that actually get done, and then they're you know, so 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:37.840 I am curious what you're hearing from your clients, the 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:42.400 questions that they are raising, and what people think ultimately 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.360 will result from the US in terms of any kind 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.800 of tariffs against Canada. I mean, we know there's so 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:52.320 much trade that goes back and forth in the auto sector, certainly, 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.119 and so we know that ultimately that would be perhaps 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:00.440 paid by US consumers. So I'm just curious, and that's 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:05.720 just one aspect of the trade between the two nations, right. 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:10.760 I think it's important to distinguish that I'm hearing different things. 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.720 I think business understands that this could be catastrophic for 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:21.680 our integrated economies, particularly in the auto sector, but also 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.840 as the expert oil and energy to the US and 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.880 as well as critical minerals. But I think Canadians are 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:36.400 very clear that the government and I think we're fairly 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:42.480 unified that if tariffs are imposed on Canadian business, that 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:46.200 Canada is not going to sit idly and watch it happen. 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:52.159 Canada will push back quite significantly, and in terms of 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:58.560 counter tariffs, impose American goods and services, and I think 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:04.560 Canadian business, my clients least stand behind that. However, in 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.960 the US side, and unless my clients, but I think 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:13.400 generally there is not as much understanding from the Americans 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.960 on how reliant they are on the Canadian economy. I 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.440 think auto sector is pretty well understood that I don't 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:25.599 know in some of those key states that some people 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:32.120 realize their jobs are significantly reliant on goods going back 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.640 and forth between the Canadian American borders, or if there 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:39.080 are if we do find ourselves in a trade war, 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.800 that the price of gas is going to go up 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.440 at the pumps and on the oil side, at least 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:49.400 we export a lot of those raw materials and then 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:53.760 things are refined in the US. So it's unlike similarly 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:58.400 the China issue, where it's more of the finished good. 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:04.919 It would completely disrupt the American supply chain dynamic in 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:10.160 several industries, and I don't think it's well understood that 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.160 it will impact their day to day living. And so 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.520 I hear quite different things. And I think that's naturally 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.760 also because Canada knows a lot about the United States. 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.240 The United States is a superpower, and we just we 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.960 tend to understand the trading relationship and how much that 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.760 is important not only friends and neighbors, but it's very 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.560 good for our economy. It's also good for the American economy. 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:39.240 So I think, if anything, I'm hearing from American clients 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.560 that there needs to be more education and proactivity from 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.680 the Canadians, both on the political and business slides, to 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.120 make them understand how this could impact the business in 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:49.960 the US as well. 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.279 Do you, I mean, how seriously are you taking this threat? 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.640 Look, I think everyone's pretty aware that only President Trump 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:04.360 knows what he's going to do, and so I think 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:10.600 people are recognizing that it it, it could be a 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:15.920 significant reality. I think why there's concern is that so 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:21.200 much of his campaign had relied on bringing those American 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.520 jobs back, particularly in the steel industry, et cetera, et cetera, 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:26.840 and so I think he's pretty serious about doing that. 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.120 But I think it's a matter of we we just 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.440 we just don't know based on you know, having seen 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:39.600 him in office previously, and uh, when the NAFTA review 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:43.800 happened under his tenure, we saw how challenging that was 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:48.080 in terms of negotiation. So I think it's people taking 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:53.120 it very seriously because it ultimately would create a serious 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.920 recession in Canada and lots of jobs. But I think 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:03.160 where there is relief in some respects as we don't 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:04.840 know he could just wake up one day and say, 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.680 actually am deciding not to do this. But since he 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.920 said the February first deadline a couple of days ago, 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.840 I think there's a lot of nervousness that that could 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.280 be a stark reality in a couple of weeks. 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.600 Do you see this as the threat on Mexico and 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:26.840 Canada being equal in the sense of like the chance 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.080 that Trump will follow through on those Do you see 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:33.359 it with China more so, like in terms of trade priorities. 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:34.480 How are you thinking about it? 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:38.439 I think Canada and the US are pretty aligned, I 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:43.360 think on navigating issues around China that pertains to national 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:50.200 security and trade issues. I think what's been problematic, unfortunately 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:53.920 you had raised earlier the immigration dynamics in Betanol, like 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.839 Canada is just not Mexico and vice versa, and I 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.880 think we are the Canadians are getting lumped into some 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:06.080 of the major challenges on the issues in Mexico and 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.960 it's not as impactful. But I think unfortunately we're coming 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.800 as one size fit all deal and I think that's 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:19.160 just by the nature of the history with NAFTA. So 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:23.320 I think that we haven't really seen any distinguishing between 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.559 Mexico and Canada. We're often lumped together, even though I 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.240 think it's pretty clear that the issues related to Trader 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:31.319 are quite different. 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:33.800 All Right, We're going to leave it there. 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.200 Hey, Marianne, thank you so much. Great to get some 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.000 time with you. She's principal at Earnscliffe Strategy. 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:41.520 It's a firm that does government. 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.040 Relations, strategic communications, and a lot more for a lot 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.280 of companies, including those US companies that do business in 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.839 Canada as well as some of the Canadian companies that 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:50.560 operate in the US. 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:51.679 So a really smart. 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.280 Perspective in terms of what may or may not be 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.000 in terms of tariffs between coming from the US to Canada. 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.760 Well, you might remember just yesterday we covered this news. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.520 The MLB said it ordered its employees to return the 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.800 office five days a week. The move makes MLB the 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.600 latest US employer to require workers to return to their 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.120 desks more often, joining Amazon, AT and t JP, Morgan 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.040 Chase and more. And in fact, just in the last 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.880 forty eight hours or so, President Donald Trump has also 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:23.040 ordered federal government workers back to their office. Maybe some 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.959 of those employees Carol asking themselves as they get back 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:29.160 to their desks, what am I doing here? Why am 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.680 I at this desk? Why am I at this job? 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:35.160 After all? The last few years have been pretty wild. Yeah, 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.960 we've got global unrest, we had a pandemic. A lot 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:43.160 of people are thinking differently about work life balance, right, 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.680 and yet here I am back at work five days 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:46.960 a week. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:48.360 So are you asking why are we here? 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.160 Well, it's a question that Jennifer Moss is asking. She's 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.080 a journalist and author. She's been on our air before. 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.160 She's got a new book out. It's called why are 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.280 We here? Creating a work culture that everyone wants? She 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:04.600 joins us from Kitchener, Ontario in Canada. Welcome back, Jennifer. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:05.040 How are you. 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:10.120 I'm great? Thank you. I think we're all asking that question. 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:12.200 Why do you think Why do you think we're asking 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.320 that question now more so than ever? 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:17.880 Well, there's been a bunch of reasons, and you named 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.040 a few, but I think it's just an existential question 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.600 for an existential time. And you know, I've been talking 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:26.840 about the future of work, what that looks like. I 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.240 think we've sort of jumped into the multiverse of work 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.080 and it was just jumped this timeline, and you know, 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.840 everything throughout the pandemic, throughout the last couple of years 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.840 has exploded. Work was already not working that great beforehand, 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:45.560 but but it again, like a crisis, just exacerbates these 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.800 existing problems, and so there's high burnout. People are feeling 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:53.440 this level of on we this level of dissatisfaction and detachment, 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:55.880 and a lot of it is because we just we 0:11:55.920 --> 0:12:00.080 went through this mortality facing event and it's changed our 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.320 priority structures about work and life and how they fit 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:04.680 into each other. 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:05.240 All right. 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.840 I can just see an older generation saying, oh, come on, folks, 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:09.120 work is about paying the bills. 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:10.920 Work is about you know, putting a roof for her. 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.439 People say, work is a four letter word, you know exactly. 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:15.199 So it's just. 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.440 What has really changed. You know. 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:22.360 People work, yes, to find fulfilling careers and all that 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:26.000 great stuff, no doubt about it. But ultimately it's about 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.520 supporting yourself, isn't it, or you know, making sure your 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:29.559 family is supported. 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.040 Well, what happens when you go through something so cataclysmic 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.120 in your life. Your brain does this really interesting thing. 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.520 It starts to reorganize its priorities because it actually does 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.320 subconsciously think that life is short, and so when you 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.360 are doing something that feels toxic or it's exhausting, or 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.960 you feel depleted by it, it starts to become reorganized 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.400 as a lower priority. And that's why you're seeing so 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.679 much pushback. And you know, we used to have a 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.240 trans actual relationship with work, but I've been saying that, 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.800 you know, really since the advent of the car phone, 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.600 when work became something else and it moved into our 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:12.920 personal lives, that relationship became a social contract. So employers 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.400 want us to be able to work anywhere, everywhere, at 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:19.160 all times. Well, then they have to fulfill that, you know, 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.720 their end of the bargain, and that it has become 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.840 this social relationship and it's not just transactional anymore. 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.520 So I guess the question is what adjustment people are 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.160 making as a result of this. We certainly saw that 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.320 happen during the pandemic. A lot of people who thought 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.680 they'd work remotely or maybe just said, you know what, 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.079 this isn't worth it to me. I'm want to move 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.320 somewhere else in the country. I want to do something different. 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.400 Is that shift still happening? Are people moving, are people 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:49.280 making big life changes later in their career. As a 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.080 result of this existential crisis. 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:54.959 Well, when you look at the people that have mobility, 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:57.920 it's your top talent, it's the ones you really want 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.080 to stay, they're the ones leaving when they feel this 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.400 level of dissatisfaction. They'll go to a place that has 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.679 the work life balance and all of those other you know, 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.000 that criteria that they're looking for. And what happens is 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.600 those that are not able to have that mobility are 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:19.440 staying and they are detached. So, you know, the great 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.560 detachment is what Gallop's calling it, where people are actually 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.720 so actively disengaged and unhappy at work. They're less productive 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.720 and they're less impactful on your bottom line. They're actually 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.960 detracting from your bottom line. So it feels good that 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.840 we are seeing, yes, this level of mobility change, but 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.640 people that are really good that you want to stay, 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.200 are leaving, and then you have this glood of people 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.080 that are unhappy and they're the ones that you know 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:51.120 are going to impact whether you are competitive. We're also seeing, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.840 you know, right now we're going into the silver tsunami 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.760 where you know, peak sixty five, where so many people 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.440 are turning sixty five and they're not choosing to return, 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:03.720 they're leaving. We're seeing mass early retirements, which is changing 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.760 the labor force. We're seeing young cohorts decide to go 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.000 into freelancing and not opt into that corporate world. And 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:14.080 we're also seeing women exiting and moving into a part 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.400 time work. So the labor force is definitely shifting, and 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.440 we need to be careful about, you know, saying, Okay, well, 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.640 at least we have that mobility managed. No, we don't. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.080 If we have people there that are disengaged and unhappy, 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:28.880 it's actually worse than if they quit. 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:30.880 All right, Well, Tim and I are doom because I'm 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.080 looking at page sixty one. Eating lunch with others pays off. 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.560 One study found that participants who ate together we're more 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.640 cooperative and trusting compared to those who did not. Eating 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.600 with others also improved tenure and enhanced overall work group performance. Actually, 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.880 maybe we're not due because we do eat lunch together often, 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:48.240 But we're at our desk. 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.880 Are you saying that workers curios? Carol, that's what I eat, Ceio, 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:53.800 there's my lunch. 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.960 Although Tim Saidiz brings us a sandwich into the studio, 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.320 so we're kind of continuing to eat lunch together. 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:00.960 I have a banana. 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.200 I mean, what are you saying, Is it that people 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.400 need to take a work they need to take a 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.680 break rather and go sit on a terrace, go to 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.800 the office lunch room, or go outside and go actually 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:14.880 sit and have lunch together, which is never going to 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:16.000 happen because we're kind of busy. 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:16.760 But that's okay. 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.160 Yeah, I mean, there's a whole bunch of things that 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:21.760 you're saying there. One of the things that I write 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.600 about in the book is time poverty. We're so time starved. 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:27.440 And this is really great research by Lorgers out of 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.440 the London School of Economics, and she says that time 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.960 starvation is really causing these issues of now we're sitting 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.880 ten hours a day. There's this rise of it's called 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.479 dining al deesco, which is what you're describing. 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:41.520 That's funny rise. 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:43.160 I've been for my whole career. 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.320 The dining al deesco is one of my favorite definitions 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:48.960 that have come out in the last er terms that 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:50.320 have come out in the last couple of years. But 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.400 it really is only twenty minutes. And that Cornell study 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.200 that you cited and that I include in the book 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.520 is really just twenty minutes. It's twenty minutes to improve culture. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:01.480 It's not every day that we have to do this. 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.240 It's really just focusing on rebuilding that muscle of community 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.119 of get a stepping up, you know, up and away 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.159 from our desk, finding a way to make the experience 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.520 of work a little bit better. The reason why people 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.240 are so resistant to these return to office mandates is 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.360 that they're going into the office and it feels exactly 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.679 like what they could be doing at home. If we 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.359 want to change that dynamic and make the office a 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.640 place where people want to be, we have to bring 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:27.919 the fun back. Going to work right now is like 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.840 going to school without art, gym or recess. The fun 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.040 has left the building and we need to bring a 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:35.600 bit of that back or else people will just feel like, 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:37.920 what is the point Why am I here? 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.080 I have to say I do miss snack time and 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:41.880 nap time. I'm just gonna put it out there. 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:43.879 When you remember that from school, don't you. 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.280 Remember that we were little, we were young, but snack 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.879 time we used to have the little milk cartons. 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.199 You never no, I don't know. 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.439 I was such a deprived child. I don't start. I 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.800 don't have memories from back then. Really, that's for a 0:17:57.840 --> 0:17:58.600 different conversation. 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.280 I favorite great. I remember saying grade yeah, miss Barbetta. 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.760 Oh my gosh, Jennifer, what's wrong with me? 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.000 Feel like you had a really sad childhood? 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:10.360 Great childhood. Don't get me wrong. 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.000 I just like, yeah, great childhood. I just I know. 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.199 I mean all I remember is like playing outside. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:18.480 Yeah, wow, Oh I did. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:19.000 Go to a school. 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:20.000 Bring that to work. 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:21.200 Then I will say, maybe. 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.400 I don't play outside for we do, take we don't. 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:25.840 Maybe I don't remember because now that you mention it, 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.120 I went to this school where they didn't allow sugar 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.800 in your This is like California in you know, eighties 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:34.600 and nineties, we were all into preservative so like you 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:36.840 weren't even allowed to bring like jam or jelly on 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:37.720 your sandwich. 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:38.600 And listen. 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:40.240 One thing I want to ask you about is you 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.280 also get into DEI And it does feel like there's 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.960 a real pushback. We've seen it in the corporate community. 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.000 We're seeing it from uh President Trump. We're seeing it 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:49.960 in the federal government. 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:51.840 D I d I. 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.800 Is that good for making us feel more connected? 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.439 Or so far? The way it's been to implemented not 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:00.280 so good. Give us some thoughts here. 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:04.600 Yeah, I dig into the research in the book, and DEI, 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:07.159 I think has faced a lot of problems because it 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.600 has been a trial and error kind of experiment, and 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:13.040 we have to expect that it's not going to be 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:17.600 completely figured out. We're dealing with really long term, institutional 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.720 millennia type problems. You can't just fix it with certain 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.560 programming or you know, or something that's going to be 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.680 othering people, which is a big problem with a lot 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.560 of the anti bias training that we've seen out there. 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.280 So it hasn't done well, and so it's very easy 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.120 to attack and say, oh, it's just it's just problematic. 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:39.479 But if we don't have a sense of belonging inside 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:42.359 of organizations, how are we going to hit those shared goals? 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:44.440 How are we going to have a shared vision? If 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:48.640 people feel excluded, then that's a real problem. And I understand, Okay, well, 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:53.520 maybe DEI in its current form is not working as 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:55.679 well as we'd like. It's not optimal, but there's a 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.840 lot of learning we can do. And if we do 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:02.600 eliminate all diverversity in the way that we think about 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.640 creating teams and organizations. It's going to be catastrophic. You're 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.560 going to lose you know, innovation, You're going to create 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.200 group think. You're going to have people that all look 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.159 and sound the same coming up with the same ideas. 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.679 And that doesn't make you competitive or innovative. And so 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:20.080 we need to take a step back and not just 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:23.919 cut DEI entirely out, but rethink how we do it 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:27.240 better and have a bit of grace period for it 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.560 to take its time to be more functional and optimal, 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.040 because right now it's just it still is in a 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:35.800 trial and iteration stage. 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:37.879 We had you on a few years ago, back in 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.960 twenty twenty one for your previous book, The Burnout Epidemic, 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:43.800 and I'm wondering if you see how you see that 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:46.399 a few years later, especially now as so many companies 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:48.360 are requiring people to be back in the office five 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:49.800 days a week. Do you think that's a mistake. 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.560 Absolutely, it is a mistake. I mean you look at 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:59.400 Nicholas Bloom Stanford economist Mark ma he's a professor of Pittsburgh. 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.760 They've done a really extensive research study along with their 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:07.119 team and have found that if you are really, you know, 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.920 wanting to be a purely capitalist. You're looking at the 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:16.720 the the economic reasons or rationale, or revenue or shareholder 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:22.080 impact rationale for work mode. It's hybrid. Is the number 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.959 one best way for people to work. It's not fully 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:29.520 remote necessarily some do it okay, but it's not five 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.119 days in the office. It's a bit of both and 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:36.679 giving people the sense of downtime and having flexibility. What 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.840 we've determined is flexibility is a right, not a perk. 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:42.800 These days, it used to be a perk, but now 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.000 that's changed. People feel like, this is my right to 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.919 have flexibility. And so when we got to make it 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.200 seem like a perk, it ends up just being toned deaf. 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:53.399 We get to run good stuff. 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:56.040