1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: that may be disturbing to some listeners. One day, I 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: was standing at the bar, sketching the breeze, and all 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I've seen something brown hit the wall 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: in front of myself, and I looked at it, and 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: it trickled down and with a wind carter and hitting 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: you run in their faces. It was fecies, and were 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: buying and selling fecies to throw on other individuals in 9 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: the Lucasville. And you know, if a guy had HIV, 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: he can get a premium price for his ship, you know, 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: because it was infected. How do you don't live with that? 12 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: How are you going to go home with your life 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: after having somebody's ship thrown into your mouth or having 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: three men hold you down? Why they't penetrate you? How 15 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: are you gonna look yourself in the mirror after that? 16 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: Serving time at Lucasville before the uprising was ugly and appalling. 17 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: But lay fun death row where Keith Lamar is sent 18 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: after being found guilty of killing five men, might just 19 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: finally break him. It puts you through artist boy or shit, 20 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: and you if you get angry, See that's proof that 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: he's an animal. No, that's proof, dumb human being, that 22 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: this shit hurt, that the ship you're doing to me 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: is painful. I'm Leah Rothman. This is the real Killer. 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: Episode five, Good Luck Keith. In nineteen ninety five, Keith 25 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: Lamar is sitting on death Row, facing the dreadful and 26 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: torturous road that lies ahead, as that was the bottom 27 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: embark on this journey. I was surrounded by some older gentlemen, 28 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: who one of whom had but he'd been on death row, 29 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: and he, along with a few other older guys, encouraged 30 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: me to adopt these attributes to stay focused and state 31 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: of course, because once you are put on death row, 32 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: it was a decades long process before or if you 33 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: were able to prove your ess. So as part of 34 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: this process, Keith takes a second name, Beaumani Hondu Shakur Bumni, 35 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: which means mighty soldier, Handu means prepared for war, and 36 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: Shakur means too thankful. Baumani or Keith, as he says 37 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: I can call him, talks to me from death row. 38 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: I would need to be a mighty soldier prepared for 39 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: the various wars and struggles inner and outer and you know, 40 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: somehow achieve a state of gratitude, you know, because without gratitude, 41 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: it's impossible to generate positive energy, and maybe some of 42 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: that positive energy is working. Shortly after arriving at Mansfield 43 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: Correctional Institution, Keith gets some news that could affect his case. 44 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: It all goes back to that list of forty three 45 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: names of prisoner witnesses and the eleven pages of potentially 46 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: exculpatory or favorable statements. When prosecutors handed them over to 47 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: Keith and his team, they refused to specify which prisoners 48 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: said what, claiming they had promised the inmates anonymity. Well, 49 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: in two other trials that followed, Keith's prosecutors went ahead 50 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: and matched some of those names and statements for their 51 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: defense teams. In some of those statements, prisoners point the 52 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: finger at perpetrators other than Keith. Herman Carson, one of 53 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: Keith's nineteen ninety five trial attorneys, immediately files a motion 54 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: for a new trial. Well, I mean, it was totally 55 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: unfair to begin with, not to give it to us 56 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: but Downlton a matter of weeks for two other people 57 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: to have access to it for their trials. Really was 58 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, almost the ultimate of unfairness. Why did you 59 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: give it to them? Why couldn't we have it? And it, 60 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, gave you a lingering feeling. It was because 61 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: they thought was that it would increase our chances of 62 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: not being convicted. The judge denied it. Judge Crowe, Yeah, 63 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: Judge Crowe denies Hermann's request for a new trial. You 64 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 1: denied the motion for a new trial. Tell me about that, well, 65 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: I don't remember much about it other than let me 66 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: think I must have not thought that that was something 67 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: that would have prejudiced to offense that much. And I'm 68 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: guessing that's why I ruled away, I wrote, But I 69 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: don't know. Wasn't that presidential to him? Even if he 70 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: had to match up names? What was he going to 71 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: do with him? I guess the way to say that 72 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: playing it, Judge Crowe ut tom ly out diverges to stand, 73 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: and I remember and walking past me on his way 74 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: out of the courtroom, he wrap pass the defense table 75 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: and he came right up to me and he said, 76 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: good luck Keith. And it was just one of those 77 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: be wordering moments where I sunk within myself. Yeah, you know, 78 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: good luck Keith. When he was actually doing things to 79 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: make sure that my luck was anything but good. So 80 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: no new trial for Keith, but it begs the question 81 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: if the jury in Keith's trial could have heard some 82 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: of the evidence allowed in the two trials that followed 83 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: his might the outcome been different. By the way. I've 84 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: tried reaching out to the jurors I could find, but 85 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: haven't heard back from any of them. Just days after 86 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: Judge Crowe denies Keith's motion for a new trial, another 87 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: devastating blow, he loses the most important person in his life, 88 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: his grandfather, shortly after I arrived there on death road 89 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: that my grand my grandfather ultimately died and my grandmother died, 90 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: I think while I was waiting to be sentenced. But 91 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: my granddad and I were very, very close. But he 92 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: was more than the granddad to me. He was my friend, 93 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: He was my father, He was my mentor, my teacher. 94 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: You know. He had dropped out of school early on 95 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: in his life, so he was functional or literally couldn't 96 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: really read or write. But he knew how to fix 97 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: every name, knew how to cook anything, and so he 98 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 1: was jack of all trades. Even though he didn't have 99 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: a formal education. He was really really brilliant, really really dignified, 100 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: and you know, one of the last conversations he had 101 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: not shared. He was just trying to use his last breath, basically, 102 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: to use his limited vocabulary to get me to see 103 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: my own worth. It just seemed like such a waste 104 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: to have this important person in my life and then 105 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: to lose him and have his last thought of me 106 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: leaving this world, me being on death row. It was 107 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: just really devastating. Yeah, as Keith mourns the loss of 108 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: now both of his grandparents and his shot at a 109 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: new trial, trying to adjust to his new reality is 110 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: incredibly difficult. Describe the conditions at Mansfield for me, Well, 111 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, you know, those of us who were sentence 112 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: to death as a result of our last involvement in 113 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: the ride. Once we were sentenced to death, we wouldn't 114 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: be allowed to enter into the main death row population 115 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: and what was unpresidented move we were also be placed 116 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: inside the tair confinement and so we were put into 117 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: this little small area about five or six seals. The 118 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: phone was taken off the wall prevented us to make 119 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: calls to our family. We couldn't get food, parcels closed 120 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: parcels which other death row prisoners were able to do. 121 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: You know, our mail was routinely thrown into the garbage. 122 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: All of us were getting, you know, cigarette bus put 123 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: out in our food, and so it was. It was 124 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: a very difficult, difficult period. So in April of nineteen 125 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: ninety six, Keith and the four others from Lucasville sentenced 126 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: to death protest the oppressive conditions with a hunger strike. 127 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: About a week later, someone from the administration convinced us 128 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: that our claims will be in taken serious, believing their 129 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: voices had been heard. Keith and the others and their 130 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: hunger strike, but Keith says, months go by with no 131 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 1: real improvements to their conditions. So they try again, and 132 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: we went on another hunger strike that long after that, 133 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: and that also ended in defeat. And I just felt 134 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: morbidly dejected. I just felt dejected. My spirits were really 135 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: low because they kept turning the scrouves, and you know, 136 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: I started having nightmares waking up at the it was 137 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: a night in Post West. You know, several times I 138 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: was kicking and punching out, striking out at the wall. 139 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: I broke my foot at one point. My medita so, 140 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: and so I just felt like I was on a 141 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: verse of losing it, losing myself. At rock bottom, Keith 142 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: attempts the improbable on behalf of himself and the four 143 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: others from Lucasville. He petitions the warden to transfer them 144 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: to another prison out of state. So it was above 145 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: they take Wade, you know how they phrased it, And 146 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: so we were left basically just too kind of single 147 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: swim and I just felt like I was thinking, felt 148 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: like I was dying where I was located, this little, 149 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: small little space. It just felt like the whole the 150 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: walls were closing in on me, and I just felt 151 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 1: I had to get out of there. And I was 152 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:13,599 Speaker 1: just desperate. After two unsuccessful hunger strikes at Mansfield Correctional Institution, 153 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: an unequivocal no to a prison transfer, and a serious 154 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: decline in his mental state, Keith takes a drastic approach. So, 155 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: tell me about the riot at Mansfield. Yeah, I'm one 156 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: that's started causing him a guant, Keith corrects me. He 157 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: calls it a disturbance. He says his plan was simple. 158 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: He just wanted to get everyone in the pod to 159 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: destroy it and make it unlivable. Hoping prison officials would 160 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: then transfer them all out of state. It was, you know, 161 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: foolish as I look back on it, but that was 162 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: the best I can do under the circumstances with what 163 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: I had at the time. Yeah. So on September fifth, 164 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, as Keith is leaving the wreck yard, 165 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: he asks a corrections officer coming to handcuff him to 166 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: first kick him the basketball nearby. Then and I bust 167 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: out of the cage, overpowers this one guard, and I 168 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: took his keys from him, and I ultimately ended up 169 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 1: opening order. Tim totally irrational, I understand, but I snapped. 170 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: You know, that's the only way I can really described it. 171 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: When you overpowered the guard. Did you have a weapon? Yeah, 172 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: I had to make ship knife. It was a piece 173 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: of metal out of a thirteen minutes color television. Wasn't 174 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: sharpened down, didn't have any sharp edges to it. But 175 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: it looked at grimy scene. It looked at throughsome and 176 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: if you you know, in a pressure a situation, you 177 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't know that it wasn't really a weapon. But of 178 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: course the CEO they didn't know that. So I had 179 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: it in my waistbanding. So they can see it then, 180 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: you know. So I didn't really have to assault any 181 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: of the guards. I didn't have to use a weapon 182 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: because you know, it was because of the ideal that 183 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: I had a weapon that they were more compliant. But 184 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: some prisoners are assaulted. I'm surprised when I learned who 185 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: and why. Yeah, it was some guys who doing those 186 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: Honger strikes. One of the things that we had tried 187 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: during the second Homer stripe was to have food in reserves. 188 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: Part of the strategy of being an anger strike in 189 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: order to you know, last longer, is to have food 190 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: smuggled in through it. So we had bought food prior 191 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,599 Speaker 1: to the Homer stripe as a strategy to extend the 192 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: Honger strike, and some of the prisoners who was on 193 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: the other side told them, told on them, alerted the 194 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: seals that we had foods and the garbage scan and 195 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: so those two guys we had kind of sought out 196 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: and we destroyed their property, their television, they radios, rusted 197 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: them up a little bit. But you know, we were 198 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: trying to you know, life kill these individuals or anything 199 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: like that, you know. But I did have an extra 200 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: client with several prisoners who had assisted the administration. Wait 201 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: what this is sounding eerily familiar? Remember Keith is on 202 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: death row, accused, charged, and convicted of killing alleged snitches 203 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: at Lucasville during a prison riot. Now he's telling me 204 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: he started a riot or disturbance where he roughed up 205 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: snitches who tried to sabotage his hunger strike. So you 206 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: were accused of killing snitches at Lucasville, but you said 207 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: that you attacked some of the snitches who had told 208 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: the administration at Mansfield about your food stash. Can you 209 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: just tell me why those two things are different. Well, 210 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: I don't know that they are different. I don't know 211 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: that they are different. I hadn't even made that correlation. 212 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 1: But I can see how somebody's now, But you know, 213 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,599 Speaker 1: make that correlation. Now people can say or use this 214 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: institutions who can to say, well, aha, you've done the 215 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: same thing that he's being accused. Though. The difference is 216 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: that now I'm in a situation that if I killed somebody, 217 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: there's no prepercussions for it, because you can only put 218 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: me on death road one time. You're going to kill 219 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: me one time. And so now if i'm this person 220 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: now I can be this person, but no consequence. That 221 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: was the opportunity. I could have killed the guards, but 222 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: I didn't. Said I held the guards hostage, but I didn't. 223 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm gradually asked that question because you know, 224 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that people typically do they judge 225 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: who outside of the context. The judge you from the 226 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: standpoint of them sitting in their living room and based 227 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: on what was normal, based on the circumstances that they 228 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: are living in. Reportedly, the riot or disturbance at Mansfield 229 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:59,119 Speaker 1: Correctional Institution is over in roughly five hours. Three corrections 230 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: officers suffer minor injuries and seven inmates were assaulted, including 231 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: Jason Robb, one of the so called Lucasville Five. Allegedly 232 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: he was severely beaten by responding officers. Months later, Keith 233 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: says officers come to punish him. But they came and 234 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: they beat me up. They dragged me to another sale 235 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: that probably had a concussion. My ribs were very sore, 236 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: probably broken up, hard to breathe. They put me in 237 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: a strip sale. They took all the bidding, took all 238 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: my clothing self for my boxers, and left me in 239 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: this freezing cold sale. And I was on the constant 240 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: watched they had a camera embedded in the wall above 241 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: the door, and so I was on the constants of valence. 242 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: And you remember being very very cold and having to 243 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: cut a hole in the mattress and Carlins out of 244 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: the mattress. And when they saw that, they came in 245 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: and confiscated the mattress. And so here I am now 246 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: stripped down to my underwear and freezing cold, and this 247 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: sale no mattress, no nothing soft to lie down on. 248 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: And I wasn't receiving any of my male so my 249 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: family didn't know where I was. Keith says his friends 250 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: and family can't get a hold of him. He seems 251 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: to have gone missing. About two months later, he's returned 252 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: to his cell. It was in this very like distressful situation. 253 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: Then one day out as a blue, after having not 254 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: heard from my family or any of my loved ones, 255 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: I received this letter from Rebecca Collins. For some reason, 256 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: they allowed her letters to come through. Rebecca Collins the 257 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: daughter of Herman Carson, Keith's nineteen ninety five trial attorney. 258 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: Back then, she's twelve, and her letter is decorated with hearts, 259 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: exclamation points, and smiley faces. The letter was like finding 260 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: a whale of water in the desert at the going 261 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: weeks without any water. It's just, you know, reawakened my 262 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: sperity in the way that that really kind of saves 263 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 1: me today. Rebecca is an advisor in the College of 264 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: Arts and Sciences at Ohio University. She also spent fourteen 265 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: years teaching sociology and criminology there. I speak with her 266 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: over zoom. So Keith has found guilty and goes off 267 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: to Mansfield. Yes, and is this when you start writing Keith? Yeah, 268 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: I want to say it was you. I mean right 269 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: around my twelfth birthday or shortly thereafter. I know that 270 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: my mom had sent him some letters. I know that 271 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: my older sister Katie was writing to Keith, and so 272 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: I asked my dad if I could write to Keith, 273 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: and he said yes, if I remember, critically, my mom 274 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: had some reservations about that. You know, had been a 275 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: twelve year old little girl writing somebody in a correctional facility. 276 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: But I was allowed to do it. What would you 277 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: write to Keith about? I talk about school. I talked 278 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: about riding horses. I talk about sports that I was playing. 279 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: Just you know all things that I think are typical 280 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: of you of being twelve. I don't know. I just 281 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: we formed a friendship and my letters to him kind 282 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: of like writing in a diary, but this way your 283 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: diary actually responds, you know what I mean, Like you 284 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: would ask me questions about my horse, and you know, 285 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: ask me questions about sports. And he was very considerate 286 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: of the fact that I was young and not telling 287 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: me things that he was experiencing. He's my big brother 288 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: and I'm his little sister, and that's just a connection 289 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: that we formed and that we continue to this day. 290 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: Here's Keith again. But I do consider a part of 291 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: my family. I'll call her affectually my little assistant. We've been, 292 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, and remained very close over the years. Yeah, 293 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: one of my most important relationships. Yeah. When she went 294 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: to college, she did her master thesis on an over 295 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: representation of black mail in prison and being sign When 296 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: she became the professor, she invited me several times to 297 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: have conversations with them about the criminal justice system and 298 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: about my experience to the criminal justice system. So she 299 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: and I have a pain extremely closed over years. About 300 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: seven months after Rebecca and Keith start corresponding, Keith says 301 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: he and the other four from Lucasville are taken in 302 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: the middle of their night from their cells at Mansfield 303 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: and driven about two hours to their new home, the 304 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: newly constructed supermax prison in Youngstown, Ohio. Supermax prisons are 305 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: the highest level security prisons in the US. Typically, in 306 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: these places, inmates have little to no time outside of 307 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: their cells, very few activities, and very little contact with 308 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: other humans. What I got you, it was easy to 309 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: see that these CEOs had been told stories about us, 310 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: about me specifically, and so I was being cast as 311 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: one of the most dangerous prisoners in the state of Ohio. 312 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: And that's how they treated me when I first arrived here. 313 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: They needed us to say something disrespectful, to do something 314 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: disrespectful too. I beat us down, the sprayls with maize, 315 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: lock us down, strap us down, lock us up, and 316 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: all these other things. But it never happened. I've always 317 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: had control over myself. I'm still viewed as one of 318 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: the worst of the worst. You know. I've had my 319 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: two rush put in the tallet. I had guards coming 320 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: to myself when I was on the visit and spray 321 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: maze into my laundry bag, you know, and so when 322 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: I put on my underwear, I'm all of a sudden 323 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: I'm itching. But the things that I don't think CEOs, 324 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: at least initially, I don't think the thing they say 325 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: fully understand that that when you to humanize somebody, you 326 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: to humanize yourself in the process. In the you know, 327 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: they's been a lot of ceols who work here who 328 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: have committed suicide because there's just too much. They've been 329 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: asking too much, just poor people being asked to oppress 330 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: other poor people, and you know there's a price for that. 331 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: From nineteen ninety eight through two thousand and two, all 332 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,719 Speaker 1: of Keith's appeals in state court all the way up 333 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: to the Ohio State Supreme Court are denied. Basically, they 334 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: reject Keith's many claims, asserting his trial in nineteen ninety 335 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: five was unjust and unfair. They say nothing done back 336 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: then or anything presented since, would have changed the outcome 337 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: of his trial. It's a series of defeats one after another. 338 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: But around this time there's some much needed levity brought 339 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: to Keith's otherwise very heavy situation. He reconnects with an 340 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: old friend from home. Ken write, Yeah, that's one of 341 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 1: my best friends. When I say best I don't mean 342 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: he's my favorite friend, so that that is the case. 343 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: But he's my best friend, you know what I mean, 344 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: the best dress, most intelligent I ever think, you know 345 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: what I mean. Keith was fifteen and Ken was fourteen 346 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: when they met in high school and played basketball together. 347 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: Kenn It invited me over to his lovely home about 348 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: thirty minutes south of Cleveland to talk about his longtime 349 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: friendship with Keith. I can just remember he's like a 350 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: celebrity in school almost, you know, because he would he 351 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: come walking down the halley, you know, if you can 352 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: almost imagine like red carpet Papa Rozz he'd walk down 353 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: the hall. He just he just whole court and you 354 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: just hear from different directions, Keith, Keith, Keith, Keithy. You 355 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: know he's waving, you know, yeah, Okay, I see he's pointing, 356 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: he's waving. You know. People just had a lot of 357 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: respect for him, and people you love being around him. 358 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: You know, he was just that that sort of guy. Today, 359 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: Ken works as an analyst for the Department of Veterans Affairs. 360 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,719 Speaker 1: He's also an Air Force vet who served in desert 361 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: storm and a proud father of two adult daughters, and 362 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: he spoke to me in depth about the reason why 363 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: he didn't take the deal. He felt as though he said, 364 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: it basically just would have crushed him. It would have 365 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: eaten him alive. He says, I just couldn't do it, 366 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: even though they promised me and told me that, you know, 367 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: I would receive no additional time. It would be a 368 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: concurrent sentence, he said, I just couldn't do it. I 369 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: didn't do this. None of it really made sense to me. 370 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: One just knowing how he was as a person too. 371 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 1: They come and since person in me never been a 372 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: prison but there are certain prison politics, and from my 373 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: point of view, typically there's no twenty one year old 374 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: who heads up, orchestrates and runs an entire death squad. 375 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: It just doesn't happen. You know, you have real grown 376 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: men in there. Could it happen? Yeah, maybe, but I 377 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: just don't. I don't see it. And I didn't see. 378 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: He randomly said something to me to basically kind of 379 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: cemented what I felt. He said, Trust me, I wasn't 380 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: running anything in that facility, he said, Man, I was 381 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 1: just trying to survive, you know, period. Yeah, so he 382 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: confirmed the basic notion that I had about him being 383 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: able to orchestrate and run a you know, as a 384 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: term into the death squad or something like that. Yeah, 385 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: if I was logic. Ken has been a great source 386 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: of support and has always kind of encouraged me to 387 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: pursue my potential, to pursue the best in myself. And yeah, 388 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: he's been doing that since we've been tenage teenagers, and 389 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: I finally listened to him, finally found something to myself 390 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: to kind of confirm what he's been saying or seen 391 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 1: all along. And so, yeah, he's been a great help 392 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: of my life. And because of what's coming, Keith will 393 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: need all the help in unconditional support he can get. 394 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: In two thousand and four, after roughly nine years on 395 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: death row, Keith's fight to prove his innocence officially moves 396 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: to the federal level. His new attorneys, David Doughton and 397 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: Kate McGarry, file a writ of habeas corpus, which means 398 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: produce the body. If granted, it will allow them to 399 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: bring Keith in front of a judge to determine if 400 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: he's being held lawfully or not. Amongst other things, Keith's 401 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: attorneys alleged that prosecutors suppressed evidence that could have been 402 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: used in Keith's defense, which violates due process and is 403 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: commonly known as a Brady violation. Brady refers to the 404 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: landmark nineteen sixty three United States Supreme Court case Brady v. Maryland, 405 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: which established that prosecutors must turn over any evidence that 406 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: might exonerate a criminal defendant. We ask the course for 407 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: every hearing to kind of sets out what was the 408 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,239 Speaker 1: protocol that prevented the space from turning over what was 409 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: what we consider was a sculpatory evidence, evidence that was 410 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: favorable to my defense. We want to know why they 411 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: made decisions that they made during trial to the problem 412 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: of this evidence, and the magistrate judge agreed that we 413 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: should kind of, you know, figure this out. So I 414 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: was the only one, I think then and now who 415 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: has received who has received the everductuary as it relates 416 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: to the Lucasville Prison up rising. Keith has granted an 417 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: evidentiary hearing, which is a pretty big deal. On July ninth, 418 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, scores of people descend on the 419 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: United States District Court for the Southern District of Ohio 420 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: at Dayton. The two day hearing will be presided over 421 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: by Chief Magistrate Judge Michael Mertz. His job will be 422 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: to listen to the evidence presented, then write a report 423 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: and recommendation for the assigned District Court judge to be clear. 424 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: All of this is to decide whether or not Keith 425 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: was denied due process and his constitutional rights were violated 426 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five, and if he should now receive 427 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: a new trial. Back to Keith and Dayton, the courtroom 428 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: was back my mom, who's now deceased, my cousin Cavin, 429 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: who's now deceased, ab independence, my uncles and aunts and cousins, 430 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: and support us, my friends. Everyone was there and including 431 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: the attorneys of the other defendants who were also convicted. 432 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: As a resort to ride at the hearing. Keith and 433 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: his attorneys argue that in nineteen ninety five, prosecutors and 434 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: the trial court played a game of hide the ball 435 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: by not turning over evidence that could prove his innocence. 436 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: During the two days of testimony, several people take the stand, 437 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: but the star witness is Mark Petemeyer. He was and 438 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: is a prosecutor out of Hamilton County. After the uprising, 439 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: he was appointed as a special prosecutor in charge of 440 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: all the Lucasville cases. He was the special prosecutor, so 441 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: we didn't see him. He didn't try the cases. He 442 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: decided who would be indicted and also decided at the 443 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: average discrporatory evidence what would be turned over, and what 444 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: was that like to see him on the stand. He 445 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: was a mysterious figure up until that point. But we've 446 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: heard his name, but we hadn't saw his face. And 447 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: so when they called him and he walked into the courtroom, 448 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: I remember being struck by how normal he appeared, because 449 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: you know, I was looking for a devil, basically, somebody 450 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: who was out for evil, and he just looked like 451 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: a normal pencil pusher, you know, with glasses on, a 452 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: normal average attorney. And he took the stand and you know, 453 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: was very composed, and I took a lit and you know, 454 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: presented without any qualms, this real bizarre application of Brady. 455 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: No one even to this day, in terms of attorneys 456 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: that I've spoken to, have ever heard of any arrangement 457 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: of Brady as he had formulated. So how did Mark 458 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: Pete Meyer explain the state's application of Brady to Keith's case. 459 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: In his deposition testimony prior to the evidentiary hearing, he 460 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: said the state utilized quote a narrow Brady standard, and 461 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: he basically explains it this way. There were several people 462 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: involved in each of the murders, no one was killed 463 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: by just one person, and each of the killings happened 464 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: during a very chaotic scene. So if a witness named 465 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of people as a perpetrators but didn't specifically 466 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: say Keith wasn't there or Keith didn't do it, Mark 467 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: pete Meyer didn't necessar fairly consider that exculpatory or favorable evidence, 468 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: and therefore it wasn't turned over to the defense because 469 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: even though the witness didn't exclude Keith, it doesn't mean 470 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: he wasn't there or a participant. So if I understand 471 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: this correctly, it's like this. Let's say I'm at a 472 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: big family reunion and a fight breaks out. When I'm 473 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: asked who threw punches during the brawl. Because it's a 474 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: crazy scene, I might naturally leave some names out, but 475 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that those people weren't there or didn't 476 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: take part. On the other hand, if I'm asked who 477 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: was involved in this family reunion fight, and I say, 478 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: I saw Tony, Monique Clarence, and Michelle throw punches. I 479 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: don't think I would ever voluntarily offer up Nicole wasn't there, 480 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: or Nicole didn't punch anyone, I mean without being explicitly 481 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: asked about Nicole's involvement. Also part of this narrow application 482 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: of Brady is if an inmates something that could have 483 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: helped Keith but was deemed not to be credible, that 484 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: also wasn't necessarily handed over to the defense. After Mark 485 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: pete Meyer testifies, the two prosecutors from Keith's nineteen ninety 486 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: five trial take the stand. What did that feel like 487 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: to have Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson questioned by your attorneys? 488 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: Seth Tiger in particular, you know, real snobbish person, real 489 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: very like smug throughout the whole product. That he was 490 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: the one that really struck me as deriving joy from 491 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: departing me of my constitutional rights. When the two day 492 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: hearing concludes, I left that whole proceeding thinking that finally 493 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: someone had heard my crying, that this thing would be 494 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: set right. Here's Keith's lawyer, Hermann Carson. I thought he 495 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: had a good chance, just from some of the questions 496 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: the judge asked during the testimony, and just the overall 497 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: tenor of the proceeding, I thought that it was a 498 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: good chance he's going to get relief. So they wait 499 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: and wait. Then, three full years after Keith's evidentiary hearing, 500 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: their weight is finally up. Chief Magistrate Mrtz issues his 501 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty three page report and recommendations. Murtz 502 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: says the evidence of Keith's guild produced at trial was 503 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: overwhelming and none of the statements presented at the hearing 504 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: would have changed the nineteen ninety five verdict. Mrtz recommends 505 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: Keith's conviction be upheld. Well, you know, I I was devastated, obviously, 506 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: the magistrate basically says, whatever was presented at this hearing, 507 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: whatever knew, it would not have changed the outcome of 508 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: your trial. How can that not make a difference if 509 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: the system is self is legit, So of course he's gonna, 510 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: you know, say, you know that this wouldn't have changed 511 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: the outcome because he talked about more than just to 512 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: outcome of my situation. It's not really about Keith Lamar. 513 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: We don't give a damn about Keith la mar about 514 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: us upholding the system, keeping disdain in no impact. Six 515 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: months later, a district judge agrees with the magistrate's report. 516 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: It was an absolutely horrible opinion. Thought that it was 517 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: a good chance he's going to get relief in federal court, 518 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: but he did not. Keith isn't granted relief. But after 519 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: what came out at the evidentiary hearing, lawyers for the 520 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: four other death row inmates are given new evidence. They 521 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: didn't have it their trials. That's something that Keith's attorneys 522 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: could have done as well, but according to Keith and 523 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: the US District Court docket, they did not. I'm the 524 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: only one who's an attorneys for whatever reason, didn't make 525 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: the necessary motions and so even though even missions made 526 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: by Mark Pete may were made at my everdential were hearing, 527 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: I was the only one not allowed to business it 528 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: from those a missionship. Despite their often rocky relationship, attorneys 529 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: Kate McGarry and David Dalton continue to represent Keith for 530 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: the next few years. I reached out to Kate McGarry, 531 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: who is now a district judge in New Mexico, to 532 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 1: see if she'd be willing to talk with me about 533 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: Keith's case. She wrote me back quote, I am not interested, 534 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: Please do not contact me again. I also reached out 535 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: to David Dalton. We exchanged a couple of emails. In 536 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: one of them, he wrote, in part quote, myself and 537 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: Kate McGarry Withdrew as he made up bald faced lies 538 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: about us. So we Withdrew. We had to ethically, so 539 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: I would not be a good person to talk to. 540 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,439 Speaker 1: By the way. I've also reached out to Mark Pete Meyer, 541 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: but he has yet to respond. My you know problem 542 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: with kay Davis that they sabotaged my case. But I 543 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,439 Speaker 1: wasn't playing on the state with panelms. So they did 544 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: what the staate wanted to do, not what I wanted 545 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: them to do. And that's a fact. They get to 546 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: talk about ethics, ethics and ship when they fucked me over, 547 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: Oh you got my blood pressure up. I'll tell you 548 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: what if I one day found myself strapped to a 549 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: journey that these people will not be able to call 550 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: it justice, will not be able to say that we 551 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: did right by this person. I had this recurrent dream 552 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: then I'm in this little complicated place, real complicated, you know, 553 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: way to get out of it. Get out of it 554 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: every time as to crawl through these little, real tight spaces. 555 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm upside down. I can't explain it to you, 556 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: but I know my way out of happen. But get 557 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: to help about me. I'm gonna get out of this. 558 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: They never thought. They thought I was gonna give up. 559 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: They thought I was turn my back on was wrong 560 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: about that, It was wrong about me. But with my 561 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: life back, I'm gonna expose these people in I said, 562 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: I believe in that with everything that I am. Really 563 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,720 Speaker 1: I get upset because they did this to a twenty 564 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: three year old kid and from again or with no resources. 565 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: It's functional family, broken family or that they you know, 566 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: said it's the most But yeah, you know it's not 567 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: over yet. It's not over. Every five of my being, 568 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: I believe that. Get my life back next time. I'm 569 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: the real Killer. What you told police, which is different 570 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: than what you shared with me, My investigation takes a 571 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: turn which leads to new questions. I've admitted some details 572 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: because it involves other people. You want to have a conversation, 573 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: Let's have a conversation. The Real Killer is a production 574 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: of AYR Media and iHeartRadio. Hosted by me Leah Rothman. 575 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. 576 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: Written by Leah Rothman, Executive producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate 577 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: producer Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator George Faum. Editing and sound design 578 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: by Cameron Taggy. Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio 579 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: engineering by Matt Jacobsen. Studio engineering by Anna mooleishan legal 580 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:38,720 Speaker 1: counsel for AYR Media. Gianni Douglas, executive producer for iHeartRadio, 581 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: Maya Howard