1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb. We're out this week, so we're continuing some 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: episodes from the vault here. This is going to be 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: part two of our series on meteoric metal and alien iron. 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: This originally published five nine, twenty twenty four. Let's jump 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: right in. 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 3: in our series on human uses of metal from the Sky. 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 3: If you haven't heard the first episode yet, you should 13 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 3: go back and check that one out before you listen 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 3: to this. But in that episode brief recap, we focused 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 3: mostly on a specific artifact from the New Kingdom of Egypt, 16 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 3: which was a dagger found wrapped up with the mummy 17 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 3: of the pharaotutin Common, which had a blade made of iron. 18 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 3: Now that might not sound remarkable, but this was a 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 3: blade made of iron from an era before the large 20 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 3: scale smelting of iron in Egypt. And the really cool 21 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 3: thing about this knife and many other iron artifacts from 22 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 3: before the regional iron age in Egypt is that they 23 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 3: were probably created out of iron that came from a 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 3: meteorite space metal. So we also discussed the history of 25 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 3: knowledge that meteorites come from space, including the story of 26 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 3: how European scientists came to generally agree on the cosmic 27 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: origin of meteorite rocks only around the beginning of the 28 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 3: nineteenth century or so, and then also some interesting evidence 29 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 3: that the ancient Egyptians did actually know that iron meteorites 30 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 3: came from space, for example the way they referred to 31 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 3: iron as the iron of the sky or the metal 32 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 3: of the sky, and some other linguistic clues, clues in 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: the way the glyphs of the Hieroglyphic language are put together. 34 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 3: And then there are also some other languages like Sumerian, 35 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 3: which have long had similar associations between iron or certain 36 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 3: types of iron and the sky. And so today we're 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 3: back to talk about more examples of the use of 38 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: metal from space in human artifacts in human technological history. 39 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: That's right, and where we're going to go next. We're 40 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: going to get back into the use of iron and 41 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: meteoric iron in meteorites in Chinese tradition, Chinese history, and 42 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: maybe just a little dash of Chinese mythology. I want 43 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: to refer back to a write up on iron that 44 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: appears in the seventy Great Inventions of the Ancient World 45 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: by Brian and Fagan. With this particular bit by Paul Tikratic. 46 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: Cratic sums up Chinese iron usage by pointing out that 47 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: iron production in China began around ninth century BCE, perhaps 48 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: introduced from the West, but also just as likely an 49 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: independent invention, and that by the Han period to go 50 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: to BCE, the Chinese quote incontestably led the world in 51 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: iron technology and production. But of course, as with these 52 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: other examples we've been looking at, we do have evidence 53 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: of artifacts created with meteoric iron prior to this. Specifically 54 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: it takes us back to the Sheng dynasty. This would 55 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: have been around fourteen one hundred BCE. Now, as we 56 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: previously mentioned, there of course has been some back and 57 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: forth on the testing of various pre Iron Age iron artifacts, 58 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: and ultimately a lot of that is still going on, 59 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: and these blades are often mentioned in some of those documents. 60 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: Now in that paper that I credited in the last 61 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: episode from Albert Jambond, twenty seventeenth Bronze Age iron meteoretic 62 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: or not a chemical strategy. At least according to this source, 63 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: the nickel count is low in these examples, but not 64 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: low enough to assign terrestrial origin, and that this is 65 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: definitely a case it seems like where the lower nickel 66 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: content is likely due to weathering effects. The blades themselves 67 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: have long been discussed as probable examples of meteoric iron, 68 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: going back at least as far as the book two 69 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: Early Chinese bronz Weapons with Meteoritic Iron Blades by gettens 70 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: at All in nineteen seventy one, which details that these 71 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: blades were found in nineteen thirty one in Anyang, Hanan 72 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 1: within a single tomb, which is also cited in Metals 73 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: in Antiquity by Young at All nineteen ninety nine. Now 74 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: I have a picture here of these artifacts here for 75 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: you to look at, Joe and everyone else. You can 76 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: look these up as well online. Just look for meteoric 77 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: iron Chinese axes or Chinese broad axes and you can 78 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: likely find images of this. You can tell that these 79 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: were ornate, highly stylized weapons. Now, I want to note 80 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: that both of these sources here that are talking about it, 81 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: they seem to indicate less than certainty in some of 82 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: the details, saying that there seems to be a lot 83 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: of believe to have been in these references. Though to 84 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: be clear, these weapons have long been in the Freer 85 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: collection at the Smithsonian, and there's no indication that the 86 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: dating or a larger geographic origin is particularly endowed here. 87 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: I just couldn't help but pick up on the fact 88 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: that this is one of those accounts where there seem 89 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: to be a little bit of ambiguity but no real 90 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: sticking points I think in trying to understand where these 91 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: came from. These would have been Chinese broad axes, formally 92 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: inlaid and again likely largely ceremonial. These are not weapons 93 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: that would be out on the battlefield. 94 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 3: Ah. Yeah, and I had been assuming the same was 95 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 3: true of Tuton Commons iron dagger, though in fact I 96 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 3: guess I don't have a way of knowing that for sure. 97 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: Don't have a reason to suspect to use this for 98 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 3: knife dueling or anything. 99 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to think about these examples in terms 100 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: of how do you use it right, because you know, 101 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: we have cases where you're going to have some sort 102 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: of an iron weapon that is going to be of 103 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: exceptional quality, but you're going to have so few of them, 104 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: maybe even just one. You know, what, what are you 105 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: going to do during the Bronze period with your iron weapon. 106 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: It's kind of like if, as a thought experiment, you 107 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: were to say, okay, what if I were to take 108 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: a lightsaber back to the Hundred Years War between England 109 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: and France during the fourteenth and fifteenth century, and you 110 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: gave it to one side or the other? You know, 111 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: what good is it going to do? You know, you 112 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: could make a case maybe for some sort of special 113 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: forces style use of the weapon by either party. Okay, 114 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: single combat, sure, but more likely than not, a single 115 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: light saber is not going to decide anything during the 116 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: fourteenth or fifteenth century in any kind of like warfare scenario. 117 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: Would make far more sense as a ritual object, as 118 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: a tool of propaganda, as is essentially like a scepter 119 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: to show how special and or powerful you are. 120 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 3: And as we talked about last time, with the specific 121 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 3: case of iron versus the dominant metal of bronze, there's 122 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: not even really a clear material superiority of early iron 123 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 3: weapons over say, well made bronze ones of the period 124 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 3: that the advantages of iron when moving into the iron age, 125 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 3: were primarily advantages in terms of economics and the sourcing 126 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 3: of materials, that it was easier to produce lots of 127 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 3: iron implements and tools and weapons at scale, rather than 128 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 3: it being that iron is just a much better metal 129 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 3: or something right right. 130 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: And the other key point, as we discussed in the 131 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: last episode, is the knowledge of where the meteoric iron 132 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: came from, like knowing that this weapon is, you know, 133 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: of heavenly origin or of cosmic origin and so forth, 134 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: that seems to often be really important. And so I'm 135 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: going to get into that question here with Chinese examples. 136 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: Turning first back to gettens at All the work to 137 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: early Chinese bronze weapons with iron blades from seventy one. 138 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: They point out that meteorite falls were known to the 139 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: ancient Chinese and discussed in their literature, often in reference 140 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: to portents. So if the metal used was known to 141 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: have come from the sky, they contend, it would have 142 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: added to the auspiciousness of the weapons and the reason 143 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: that the iron was used in these cases instead of jade, 144 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: which typically occupied an elevated position of ceremonial importance for 145 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: weapons and so forth. Such usage may have also influenced 146 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: known Chinese meteorite fragments. Quote such a use of meteoritic 147 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: iron might also explain the fact that only one iron 148 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: meteorite find is known from China. This I is referring 149 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: to ancient examples of meteorite, the idea being that iron 150 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: meteorites would have been known as a source for this 151 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: sort of metal and would have been used as such. 152 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: And certainly these are not the only known examples of 153 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: Chinese meteoric weapons or weapons or artifacts that are believed 154 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: or it's argued, may be made of such iron. There 155 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: are several known artifacts of possible meteoric iron from the 156 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: late Sheng and early Western Zo. So for examples of 157 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 1: some of those observations, because they mentioned, okay, the ancient 158 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: Chinese knew about meteorites. They knew they came from the sky. 159 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 1: For some examples of this knowledge, I turned to the 160 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four paper Meteorite Falls in China and some 161 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: Related human Casualty Events by Yao at All, published in 162 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 1: the journal Meteoritics. They looked at accounts from roughly seven 163 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: hundred BCE through nineteen twenty CE, with the earliest account 164 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: cited found in the Spring and Autumn Annals, traditionally attributed 165 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: to Confucius, who would have historically lived around five fifty 166 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: one through four to seventy nine BCE. This work is 167 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: one of the five classics of ancient Chinese literature and 168 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: it covers an historical period stretching from seven twenty two 169 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: to for eighty one BCE, and the work includes coverage 170 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: of a six forty five BCE event in which quote 171 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: in translation of course, five stones fell in Sung And 172 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: there are various other accounts in this article that they 173 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: don't highlight all of them, but they highlight some of 174 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: historic Note there is a Sei dynasty account. This is 175 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: from the work History of the Suy Dynasty, and it 176 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: refers to a six sixteen b CE meteorite, with the 177 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: account depicting a meteorite hitting a siege tower during the 178 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: besiegement of a walled city. What yeah, So the idea 179 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: is that there's a you know, a siege situation going on, 180 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: a meteorite hits, takes out the siege tower, causes the sea, 181 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: and then either the strike of the meteorite or the 182 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: perhaps far more likely the subsequent collapse of said siege 183 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: tower results in I believe I read possibly ten fatalities. 184 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: That was their I think recorded number. If this is true, 185 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: it might stand as the earliest recorded human meteorite related fatality. 186 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: These are of course rare. You're talking about situations where 187 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: the you know, a meteorite hits somebody or hits the 188 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: vicinity of a human and in doing so, results in 189 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: a casualty. But it's also non entirely clear. I've read 190 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: some criticism of this account saying, Okay, this is certainly possible. 191 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: It would be a very rare occurrence. We also have 192 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: to just acknowledge that it's possible that this siege tower 193 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: was taken out by something far more mundane, like human 194 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: munitions fired from the wall of the sieged city, that 195 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But it is kind of It is 196 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: cataloged in the historic records, so I've seen numerous texts 197 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: acknowledge it and say, well, perhaps this is true. 198 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 199 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: So hundreds of accounts follow these early accounts of meteorites 200 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: and the Chinese records, and I'm not going to go 201 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: through all of them, or even the ones listed in 202 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: this source. But there's one more I wanted to mention 203 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: here because it does line up with what we're talking 204 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: about and the subject of meteors and iron, and that 205 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 1: is the non meteorite shower of thirteen forty one. It's 206 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: notable because it seems to have been a shower of 207 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: iron meteorites, and it was even referred to as quote 208 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: the iron rain, with descriptions of the resulting bore holes 209 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: in the earth matching up with what we know of 210 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: iron meteorite impacts today. Now. Thirteen forty one, of course, 211 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: is far outside the Bronze Age examples we're looking at, 212 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: but you know, you combine this with certainly these much 213 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: earlier examples, and it does seem clear that the ancient 214 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: Chinese knew that meteorites came from above, they came from 215 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: the sky, and that alone would be enough to sort 216 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: of factor into these myth making understandings of what a 217 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: weapon forged of such iron would mean. By the way, 218 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: speaking of Chinese mythology, it's worth noting that you the Great, 219 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: the character that we've talked about on the show before, 220 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: founder of the Shop of the dynasty, in myth and legend, 221 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: the bringer of flood controls is sometimes, at least at 222 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: least in early China, these mythology connected to meteorites. Oh so, 223 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: according to Mark Edward Lewis in the Mythology of Early China, 224 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: some texts say that you was born of a stone 225 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: or in a place named for a stone, while other 226 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: tellings state that quote his mother was inseminated by a 227 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: magical stone or meteor. 228 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 3: Oh. Interesting, this is a different way of sort of 229 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 3: like a parenthood by the gods. Yeah. 230 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I had not run across this before. I 231 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: cross checked it in a couple of my go to 232 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: Chinese mythology sources Yang and in Turner's Chinese Mythology and 233 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: Burrell's work on Chinese mythology. Both of these texts, I 234 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: refer to an origin story for you by which he's 235 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: born from the belly of his father's corpse following the 236 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: said father's execution. And this I'm guessing this entirely masculine 237 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: birth as a Buryl describes it. I guess this is 238 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: the predominant origin story that comes later, and that Lewis 239 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: here is focusing primarily on early tellings before those traditions emerged. 240 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 3: Oh okay, I see so. 241 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: Anyway, these uh, these axes among other artifacts, you know, 242 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: another example of an ancient Bronze Age culture having access 243 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: to meteoric iron, using it to craft weapons that then 244 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: have an exalted place within their culture. Uh and so, 245 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: and definitely look up images of this if you have 246 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: the ability to do so readily, because you can you know, 247 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: they're they're they're not in pristine form, they haven't been 248 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: restored or anything like that. They're not anywhere near the 249 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: the completeness of Tout and Commons dagger, but you can 250 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: still get a sense of the majesty they would have had. 251 00:15:47,040 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, even the stubs are beautiful. Okay. I want to 252 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: talk about a statue, specifically a metal sculpture allegedly from Tibet, 253 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: sometimes called the Iron Man, referred to in a lot 254 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 3: of media reports as the Iron Man or sometimes as 255 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 3: the Space Buddha. 256 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: Well, these both, these descriptions both take you somewhere, that's 257 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: for sure. 258 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: So this statue weighs about ten point six kilograms or 259 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 3: about twenty three pounds, and is roughly twenty four centimeters 260 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 3: or about nine and a half inches tall. It is 261 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: made of iron, and it depicts a bearded male figure 262 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 3: that is sometimes referred to as a Buddha, sometimes referred 263 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 3: to as a God sometimes referred to as a man, 264 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 3: but he is depicted wearing trousers, a sort of cape 265 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 3: or cloak that's joined over his shoulders in a knot 266 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 3: on his chest. He's wearing kind of almost kind of 267 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 3: cloglike looking shoes with a split in the cuff at 268 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: the bottom of the pant legs, and what looks to 269 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 3: me kind of like scale armor over his mid section. 270 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: And then on that scale armor there is the symbol 271 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 3: of a swastika, which, remember, before it was appropriated by 272 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 3: the German Nazi Party, that was around nineteen twenty, it 273 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 3: was for centuries or even millennia, a traditional symbol with 274 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 3: positive associations in a lot of different cultures and religions 275 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 3: throughout the world, notably in Hinduism and Buddhism. 276 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: That's right, and it still has that status in various 277 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: Hindu and Buddhist traditions, though of course permanently ruined in 278 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: the West by the appropriation of the Nazi Party. 279 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so in the iron Man statue, the figure 280 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 3: has a halo like disc behind his head and he 281 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 3: is clutching a round egg shaped object in one hand. 282 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 3: His legs are folded underneath. His body looks like he 283 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 3: could be sitting cross legged or perhaps even dancing. But 284 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 3: this whole thing is carved out of a solid piece 285 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 3: of metal with a rough, unfinished base below the figure. 286 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 3: So what is the deal with this weird metal statue. Well, 287 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: there was a bunch of media about this statue way 288 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 3: back in twenty twelve that was associated with the publication 289 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 3: of a paper that was looking into its physical makeup 290 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: and its origins. The paper was by Buckner at All, 291 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 3: published in the journal Media Critics and Planetary Science again 292 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 3: in twenty twelve, and it was called Buddha from Space, 293 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 3: an ancient object of art made of a China iron 294 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 3: metia write fragment. So I'm going to start with what 295 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 3: was originally alleged by it, but keep in mind that 296 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 3: some of the information I'm going to say at first 297 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 3: is either not certain or almost certainly not true. The 298 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 3: lead author of this paper, Elmer Buckner, is a geologist 299 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 3: affiliated with the Planetology Institute at Stuttgart University, and so 300 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 3: the authors of this paper were looking into the question 301 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 3: of first of all, what this statue is made of, 302 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 3: but also what does it depict and where did it 303 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 3: come from? As to where it comes from, there again, 304 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 3: is plenty of debate about this, but the story as 305 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 3: received by the authors of the paper goes like this. 306 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 3: In the years nineteen thirty eight and nineteen thirty nine, 307 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 3: Adolf Hitler's SS sponsored a research and propaganda expedition to Tibet. 308 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 3: This is kind of a famous, famous expedition about which 309 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 3: there has been much sort of cultural legend. But this 310 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 3: expedition was led by the German zoologist and explorer Ernst Schaffer. 311 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 3: This expedition collected a lot of material for return to Germany. 312 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 3: So they took a bunch of plant and animal samples, 313 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 3: seeds and grains and plants, and they cataloged birds. There 314 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 3: was ornithology missions and stuff like that. And it also 315 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 3: took a lot of cultural artifacts, including, according to a 316 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 3: Triple As blog post about this paper by Stephen A. 317 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: Edwards quote, a robe believed to have been worn by 318 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: the Dali Lama, a gold coin, and the iron statue. 319 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 3: The latter apparently attracted the attention of the Nazis because 320 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 3: of a swastika carved into its center. So that's the 321 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 3: story about where it came from. What does appear to 322 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 3: be true is that the statue was in the possession 323 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 3: of a private collector from some time unknown until the 324 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 3: year two thousand and seven, which is the same year 325 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 3: these authors began investigating it. But before then. The allegation 326 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 3: is that it was taken from Tibet by Schaffer's men 327 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 3: in the late thirties and then disappeared during World War II, 328 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 3: only to reappear to the public in the two thousands. 329 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 3: All right, now, as to the question of what the 330 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 3: statue is made of, the authors conducted an elemental analysis 331 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 3: and found that the concentration of elements present in the 332 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 3: metal was consistent with an iron meteorite, so much like 333 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 3: the analysis we talked about in the previous episode looking 334 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 3: at King Tut's dagger. Here they found high concentrations of nickel. 335 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 3: This statue was approximately sixteen percent nickel by weight and 336 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 3: about zero point six percent cobalt, and these are not 337 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,719 Speaker 3: ratios you would expect to find in earth based iron. 338 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 3: Earth based iron extracted from before the eighteen hundreds tends 339 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 3: to be not more than about four percent nickel. Also, 340 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 3: the authors analyzed the ratios of trace platinum group metals 341 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 3: and found that these were also consistent with meteorite iron. 342 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 3: Not only that they were able to match this metal 343 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: to the composition of meteorites from a specific known impact area. 344 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 3: They write, quote, the geochemical data of the meteorite generally 345 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 3: matched the element values known from fragments of the Chinga 346 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 3: atax site taxite meaning ungrouped iron meteorite strewn field, discovered 347 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 3: in nineteen thirteen. The provenance of the meteorite, as well 348 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 3: as the piece of art strongly points to the border 349 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 3: region of eastern Siberia and Mongolia. Accordingly, and I went 350 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: and did a little more looking, So it seems that 351 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 3: the Chinga meteorite is sort of it's an area rather 352 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 3: than one specific object. The Chinga meteorite field is something 353 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 3: that contains fragments of meteorite found by gold miners in Tuva, 354 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 3: which is a region of southern Siberia in Russia near 355 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 3: the border with Mongolia, and the hundreds of meteorite fragments 356 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 3: found there are thought to result from an object that 357 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 3: exploded in the atmosphere over Tuva between ten and twenty 358 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 3: thousand years ago. So the scientific evidence that the iron 359 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 3: Man statue was made out of meteorite iron seems quite strong. 360 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 3: But what about these other questions? What does this statue 361 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 3: depict and when was a when and where was it made? 362 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: Here's where we start getting into the much more disputed territory. 363 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 3: The authors of this twenty twelve paper claimed that it 364 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: was likely a depiction of the warrior king, god and 365 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 3: wealth Buddha known as Viceravanna, who is the guardian of 366 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 3: the North. There you can think of sort of heavenly 367 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 3: beings that are guardians of the cardinal directions, and Viceravanna 368 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 3: is the guardian of the North. This figure, Viceravanna, shares 369 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 3: characteristics with the Hindu deity known as Kubera and is 370 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: also known as Jambala, sometimes shown carrying a lemon or 371 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 3: a money bag in his hand, and in other depictions, 372 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 3: especially earlier ones, the authors say that Viceravana is shown 373 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 3: as quote, a corpulent figure that holds a mongoose which 374 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 3: spews jewels from its mouth. Sometimes also, especially beginning in 375 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 3: the second half of the eighth century, they say he 376 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 3: is shown with ghosts at his feet. So, due to 377 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 3: a number of visual motifs such as the crossed legs 378 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 3: and the scale armor and so forth, the authors believe 379 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: that this is Viceravana we're looking at. But they also 380 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 3: write their thoughts about the religious significance of the swastika 381 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 3: in the image. They say, quote, the swastika prominently displayed 382 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 3: on the cuirass of the sculpture was a symbol frequently 383 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 3: used by the nature based pre Buddhist Bun religion rooted 384 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 3: in the western parts of Tibet. The Bun religion had 385 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 3: its own literature and art that was, they say, continuously 386 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 3: absorbed into the Tibetan Buddhism that propagated into the entire 387 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 3: area of Buddhist influence. A paper I'm going to talk 388 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 3: about in a minute I think will somewhat dispute that claim. 389 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: But they say, accordingly, the iron man could represent a 390 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 3: Bun slash Buddhist hybrid, showing some recognition features of Kubera 391 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 3: the early Viceravana. 392 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 1: Good, all right, and not getting into the criticism I 393 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: was about to come, that would seemingly make sense. We 394 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: can point in various examples not only in Buddhist traditions, 395 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: but in other traditions where we see these emerging of 396 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: art styles and merging of cultures in a particular sculpture 397 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: or other work. 398 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 3: Sure, and so going with this hybrid art hypothesis, they 399 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: write quote. According to this interpretation, the possible provenance of 400 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 3: the Iron Man is Western Tibet or anywhere in the 401 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 3: area of Buddhist influence, and the age can be tentatively 402 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 3: dated at the eighth to tenth century. Now, as far 403 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 3: as I can tell, the chemical analysis that they did 404 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 3: appears sound. I've not come across major criticism of the 405 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 3: analysis of the materials. So the statue is probably made 406 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 3: of meteorite iron, perhaps even from the known source, the 407 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 3: Chinga metiorite field, but the question of its cultural origin 408 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 3: I found to be strongly disputed. So there is a 409 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 3: professor of Buddhist studies named Akim Beher that could be 410 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 3: Beyer or Bayer. I'm not sure. I'm going to say Beyer. 411 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: Apologies if that's wrong. Beher, who was at one point 412 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 3: affiliated with Dunguk University in Seoul, South Korea. He may 413 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 3: be at a different institution. Now addressed these claims in 414 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 3: an article that I found called the Lama Wearing Trousers 415 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 3: Notes on an iron statue in a German private collection. 416 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 3: And here's where the story I think becomes even more interesting, because, 417 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 3: of course, any statue or sculpture made out of a meteorite. 418 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 3: That's inherently a pretty fascinating idea, but it goes beyond 419 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 3: that because it calls up questions of the authenticity of 420 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 3: art and our ability to recognize what we're looking at 421 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 3: when we're looking for cultural authentics and forgeries and fakes. 422 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 3: In this place, pa Bear does not dispute the meteorite 423 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 3: origin of the iron, but argues that the statue is 424 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 3: not authentically Tibetan or Mongolian, and Bear's clear and well 425 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 3: known hallmarks of European imitations of Tibetan art. In other words, 426 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 3: instead of being a eight to tenth century Tibetan religious 427 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 3: sculpture made out of iron from space, it is a 428 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 3: modern European forgery made out of iron from space. Or 429 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 3: perhaps not forgery, perhaps just imitation. I guess to decipher 430 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 3: the difference between forgery and imitation, maybe you would need 431 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 3: to know the intent of the artist. 432 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I would imagine so. But as we've been saying, 433 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: that that would appear to be lost to history. So 434 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: all we can do is offer conjecture. 435 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 3: So Behar says that at the time of his writing, 436 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 3: in response to this paper and the media that followed it, 437 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 3: no authority on Tibetan or Mongolian art had ever publicly 438 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 3: authenticated the sculpture. So basically, from his point of view, 439 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 3: I think he's saying like, there's not even really anybody 440 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 3: within the relevant field to disagree with about this. It's 441 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 3: just clearly not authentic. And he goes on to list 442 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 3: thirteen stylistic elements of the sculpture that make it overwhelmingly 443 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 3: clear to him that it is a fake. I'm not 444 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 3: going to go through all thirteen, but I wanted to 445 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 3: mention a couple in detail, and then I can just 446 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 3: allude to the rest. So one example that even looked 447 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 3: weird to me. I am not claiming to be an 448 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 3: expert on the Tibetan or Buddhist art. I don't really 449 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 3: know anything about it. But I looked at the statue 450 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 3: and I was like, huh, the shoes look weird, and 451 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 3: what do you know? So he identifies as this very 452 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 3: first item on the list, the footwear. He writes, quote, 453 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 3: the lama is neither barefoot, nor does he wear traditional boots. 454 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 3: The shoes cover the feet like European shoes up to 455 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 3: the ankles, and no further, and Rob, I've got a 456 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 3: zoom in for us to look at here of the 457 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 3: shoes on the image. Again, they do look weird to me. 458 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 3: I'm not saying what looks weird to me should be 459 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 3: decisive on this issue. I just thought it was funny 460 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 3: that they did look weird to me. So after I 461 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 3: read this comment by Bear, I went around looking for 462 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 3: other images of Vice Ravanna in Buddhist art and other 463 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 3: images of just figures from Tibetan art. And yeah, I 464 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 3: don't really see shoes that look like this. I either 465 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 3: see like bear feed or boots that go up the calf. 466 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. I had a similar experience after I read this 467 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: in your notes. I have a copy of Roberty Fisher's 468 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: Art of Tibet that I've used in research projects before, 469 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: so I got that out I started looking through it. 470 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: That book, by the way, does not cover this particular 471 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: statue or mention it as far as I could tell, 472 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: but it has a lot of illustrations. So I scanned 473 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: through it, and I don't know, I had an odd experience, 474 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: Like I love looking at Tibetan art. I love the 475 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: complexity and all the rich information that is contained within 476 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: some you know that becomes apparent to someone like me, 477 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: but a lot of it is just lost on me 478 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: as I am not its historic contended viewer, but it 479 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: is almost I found it almost physically painful to look 480 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: at each of these amazing images and focus not on 481 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: anything else going on in them, but to look at 482 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: the feet and the shoes. There are some images where 483 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: feet are seemingly very important, and so it's not like 484 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: feet or just a non commodity in these images, but 485 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: there's just so much going on that I had a 486 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: hard time looking at just the feet. 487 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was some series we did a while back 488 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: where we talked about, you know, and there's variation within 489 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 3: all art styles, but we talked about how a lot 490 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 3: of Tibetan art is just gloriously busy. There's like so 491 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 3: much going on in it and so much text here. 492 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is if memory serves from those past episodes. 493 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: Like part of it comes down to, of course, you 494 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: have a very complex theology that needs to be related 495 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: to some degree through these visual representations. And then also 496 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: there's a strong case to be made that the landscape 497 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: plays into it, that there is a kind of scale 498 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: to the Tibetan landscape that therefore makes these interior holy 499 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: spaces need to be busier, need to be just just 500 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: so full of additional details, and without any of these, 501 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, artistic voids that become important in other traditions. 502 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: But anyway, I looked at a lot of feet in 503 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: these when I could see them, and because it seemed 504 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: like most of the examples just broadly feet on all art, 505 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: you know, it's either going to be a barefoot or 506 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: it is going to be a feet you cannot see 507 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: because they are obscured by clothing. And in fact, I 508 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: don't think I saw a single shoe in that particular book. 509 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: I also went to a rather prolific blog online of 510 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: Himalayan Buddhis art titled It's you can find It's Himalayan 511 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: Buddhist Art dot WordPress dot com. A lot of images 512 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: on there, with some some write ups. It seems to 513 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: be a very current blog. I looked around on there, 514 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: and in fact, and there I found I found lots 515 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: of bear feet, and I did find at least one 516 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: example of a couple of examples maybe a footwear, one 517 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: of which though is clearly, like you said, a boot 518 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: that goes you know, much much farther up the leg 519 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to what we see in the alleged Ironman here. 520 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 3: M hm. 521 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: And so like you, now, when I look at the 522 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: iron Man's feet, I'm like, this is this feels off? 523 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: Like it feels even more off now that I have 524 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: all this additional information in my head about it. They 525 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, they look like, I don't know, kind of 526 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: like little elfin shoes. 527 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 3: I don't know exactly. Yeah, but again, it's not just 528 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 3: our opinion. Expert on on Buddhism and Tibetan art says, 529 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 3: this is not what this usually looks like. Bear's next 530 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 3: point points out the pants. This guy's wearing pants, and 531 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 3: he says, this is sort of a dead giveaway that 532 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 3: the trousers worn by the lama in this sculpture are 533 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 3: to be found nowhere else in Tibetan nor Mongolian sculpture 534 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 3: of the time, in which figures may wear robes or 535 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 3: might have armor covering their shins, but never pants like this. 536 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 3: And even there's kind of this interesting like what would 537 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: you call this a flare or I guess like a split. 538 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 3: There's like a split in the pant leg down at 539 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 3: the cuff. And yeah, Bear is like, I don't know 540 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 3: what to make of that. Maybe that's just to make 541 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 3: it look sort of different than normal pants, like pastoral 542 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 3: or something. Yeah. 543 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, most of these images you look at Yeah, you're 544 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: looking at it flowing robes and so forth, or armor. Yeah. 545 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: I was looking around too for examples of what we 546 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: might describe as pants, and I was not finding them. 547 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 3: So then Bear goes on the list eleven other points 548 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 3: of difference from known Tibetan nor Mongolian art, having to 549 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: do with everything from the way the body is positioned, 550 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 3: like the position of the legs, to how body parts 551 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,719 Speaker 3: such as the beard and the hands are rendered. There 552 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 3: are major differences there. How the halo is depicted. I 553 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 3: want to come right back to that, and then things 554 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 3: about the clothing and the jewelry. Just a lot of 555 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 3: stuff about this does not fit with the alleged context 556 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 3: it supposedly comes from. So the part about the halo 557 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 3: was also interesting to me, given that we did a 558 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,959 Speaker 3: series of episodes on halo imagery a couple of years ago. 559 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 3: Bayer says that halo's attached to the body like I 560 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 3: actually attached to the body on the sculpture are not 561 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 3: very common in genuine metal statues here. If they have 562 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 3: a halo it tends to be like a separate piece 563 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 3: from the body in the sculpture, but then also notes 564 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 3: that the halo around the figure's head and then the 565 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 3: greater ariole behind the figure's body are totally blank and 566 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 3: featureless circles. Here, I did a little digging deeper on this, 567 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 3: and I found another paper zooming in and show maybe 568 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 3: there are a few little scratches in the halo if 569 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 3: you zoom in, but there's no major decoration or adornment. 570 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 3: And if you compare this to how halo's or arioles, 571 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 3: you know, the glow around the head or the glow 572 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 3: around the body, how they're usually depicted in Tibetan or 573 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 3: Buddhist art, it's a world of difference. They are usually 574 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 3: not a blank circle. They are usually highly textured, highly adorned, 575 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 3: like we were saying, very busy, with a lot going 576 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 3: in them, maybe depicted as flames or having a kind 577 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 3: of texture within them, or or showing even little like 578 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,240 Speaker 3: scenes and figures inside them. 579 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think this feels like a strong point. Yeah, 580 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: that this halo feels way too casual. Yeah, and probably 581 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: has more in common with Western depictions of a halo, 582 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: you know. 583 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, looks more like a halo you'd see around the 584 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 3: head of a saint in like a medieval Catholic depiction 585 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 3: or something. Yeah. Yeah, So there is a bunch of 586 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 3: stuff like this that just does not match the cultural 587 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 3: con text of its alleged production and on the art elements, 588 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 3: Behar says, quote, my own research has not yielded a 589 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 3: single even remotely similar object, which led me to conclude 590 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 3: that the statue is in fact a European counterfeit, and 591 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 3: I was encouraged to take this conclusion by several colleagues 592 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 3: I contacted. While no such artifacts exist in Inner Asia, 593 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 3: artifacts of the pseudo Tibetan style exist in abundance, produced 594 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 3: as home decoration for film sets and the like. Any 595 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 3: highly improbable claim to the opposite would have to carry 596 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 3: the burden of proof. So having made the case that 597 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 3: this is a European imitation rather than a genuine Tibetan 598 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 3: or Mongolian original, the paper also addresses some other questions, 599 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 3: including who is depicted in the sculpture and where it 600 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,760 Speaker 3: comes from. As to who is depicted, Bear agrees actually 601 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 3: that it might possibly be Vice Shravana, which is what 602 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 3: the original authors proposed, but then also give some other possibilities. 603 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:07,399 Speaker 3: Maybe it is pod Maasimbava was another figure. It could 604 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 3: be an amalgam of elements from different original figures. And 605 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 3: then there's the question of where did it come from. 606 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 3: Behar also here casts doubt on the story that this 607 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 3: was taken from Tibet by the Nazi Schaffer expedition in 608 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 3: the late thirties. He claims that after corresponding with the 609 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 3: authors of the twenty twelve study, he could find no 610 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 3: reliable evidence that this piece had any historical association with 611 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 3: Schaffer or with the SS. I could be wrong, but 612 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 3: as best I can tell, the evidence for the association 613 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 3: is the claim of the collector who produced it in 614 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 3: the two thousands, But that came with no like historical 615 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 3: evidence backing it up or no reliable documentation. So Behyar 616 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 3: doubts the Schaffer connection totally. 617 00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: So this might have just been a story that was 618 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: perhaps just to make it a little more marketable. 619 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 3: To collectors possibly and that could in fact work in 620 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 3: two different ways. He identifies two different hypotheses for the 621 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 3: production of this. One is that it's a He calls 622 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 3: it something produced for the quote general antique and curio market, 623 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 3: in which case, the swastika depicted on the armor and 624 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 3: the association with the Chaffer expedition would just like sort 625 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 3: of give it more general mystery to be like, wow, 626 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 3: that's weird and be attractive to a general antique buying 627 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 3: audience or curio buying audience. But then he says, there's 628 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 3: another interpretation which is a little more sinister, which is 629 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 3: that it is made specifically to appeal to the market 630 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 3: for Nazi memorabilia, in which case these associations would would 631 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 3: have a specific direct appeal. So who did make it, 632 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,800 Speaker 3: Beyer says, we don't know, but he thinks that most 633 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 3: likely it was made by a European artist sometime roughly 634 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 3: between nineteen ten and nineteen seventy. Why those dates, The 635 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 3: reasoning seems to be that this would be a period 636 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 3: when there was a market for this sort of thing, 637 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 3: for artifacts imitating Tibetan styles or things to be passed 638 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 3: off as Tibetan in origin. But there was also still 639 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 3: before nineteen seventy enough ignorance within the market for this 640 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 3: sort of art that something of this quality could be 641 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 3: passed off as authentic. He says, after around nineteen seventy 642 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 3: quote more details of original Tibetan art gained wide dissipation, 643 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 3: so probably the market would be more aware of like 644 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 3: that this would not pass muster. So from Bear's perspective, 645 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 3: we don't know what happened for sure, but it seems 646 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 3: possible that it was something like a piece of meteorite 647 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 3: iron from the Chinga meteorite field in Tuva again that 648 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 3: southern Siberia somehow gets transported to Germany, where sometime in 649 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 3: the twentieth century, maybe between like nineteen ten and nineteen 650 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 3: seventy roughly, it is partially forged and carved into a 651 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 3: statue made to crudely imitate Tibetan art, and then from 652 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 3: there it passes into a collector's market with this story 653 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 3: behind it, with this alleged link to the Shaffer expedition. 654 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 3: And then he wraps up the article by sort of 655 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 3: discussing the importance of consulting people in the relevant fields 656 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 3: before go before you know, going public with claims of authenticity. 657 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 3: So of course I'm you know, I'm not qualified to 658 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 3: adjudicate this matter either, but I would tend to take 659 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 3: the word of people who specialize in Tibetan art in 660 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 3: evaluating whether something is authentically Tibetan art or not. And 661 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 3: he says, basically, any specialist in Tibetan or Buddhist art 662 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 3: could have looked at this and said this is not authentic. 663 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 3: And it's still an interesting story with that additional context 664 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 3: as well, because so like a European forgery of Buddhist 665 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 3: art imbued with a mysterious Nazi backstory which is in 666 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 3: fact made out of iron from a Siberian meteorite. How 667 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 3: does that happen? 668 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still this enigma, isn't it, even if it's 669 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: not the enigma that some tellings would make it out 670 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: to be. 671 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 3: But that's not all. There is one more development in 672 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,959 Speaker 3: this story that I came across. So in the year 673 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, a German historian of Tibet named Israun Engelhart 674 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,240 Speaker 3: published an article called the Strange Case of the Buddha 675 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 3: from Space. And in this piece, Engelhart gives extensive reasons, 676 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 3: first of all, for thinking the sculpture was not brought 677 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 3: back to Germany from Tibet by the expedition in the 678 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 3: late nineteen thirties, which that expedition she had actually studied 679 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 3: in great depth. For one thing, the members of the 680 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 3: SS expedition actually made meticulous catalogs of the items, but 681 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 3: they brought back from Tibet, and the iron statue is 682 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 3: not listed among them. But Engelhart in this paper also 683 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 3: documents her attempts to track down the ownership history of 684 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 3: the Iron Man, and these efforts are somewhat successful, and 685 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 3: they end up pointing her back to a sort of 686 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 3: aggressively negotiating antiquities dealer from Russia. Going off that information, 687 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 3: Engelhart eventually reaches the conclusion that the sculpture was probably 688 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 3: somehow associated with a known historical figure. That it was 689 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:32,240 Speaker 3: probably associated with and perhaps made for the strange Russian 690 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:39,919 Speaker 3: artist Nikolai Rarick that spelled Roe rh Nikolai Rarik, who 691 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,760 Speaker 3: lived from eighteen seventy four to nineteen forty seven. Rareck 692 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 3: in his career traveled extensively in Central Asia and was 693 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 3: obsessed with the Himalayas and with Tibet, and there are 694 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 3: many portraits of him posed in Tibetan garb and with 695 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,240 Speaker 3: Tibetan surroundings. He's wearing Tibetan robes. In nineteen twenty six, 696 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 3: Eric produced a sketch that angle heart came across and 697 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 3: the sketch is entitled the Order of Riggdan Yeppo, and 698 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 3: the sketch really looks a lot like the iron Man statue. 699 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 3: There's a similar posture and pose, a similar double halo, 700 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 3: similar pointed hat, similar clothing, and a note about the 701 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 3: title there that Rarick understood rigged and Yeppo as the 702 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 3: name of a figure meant to be the future ruler 703 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 3: of a spiritual kingdom known as Shambala in Tibetan Buddhism. 704 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:42,839 Speaker 3: And further writing about the comparisons between the iron Man 705 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 3: statue and the sketch and eventually the painting produced by 706 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 3: Rarick known as the Order of Riggdan Yeppo, Angle Heart writes, quote, 707 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 3: the left hand of both the sketch and the statue 708 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 3: seems to hold neither a mongoose nor a vase, but 709 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 3: rather the famous radiant Centimani Stone, the wish fulfilling jewel 710 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 3: coming from the Sky, which Rareck painted several times. In 711 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty three, when the Rarecks were in Paris, they 712 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 3: received a mysterious package through dubious channels that allegedly contained 713 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 3: this very stone, said to be a fragment of a 714 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:27,280 Speaker 3: meteorite and apparently Rareck and his wife Elena, who Elena 715 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 3: was very into the mystical religious movement then known as Theosophy. 716 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 3: They got really excited about the meteorite stone and believed 717 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 3: it have great significance for their lives. Apparently Rareck had 718 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 3: long had thoughts like imagined himself as carrying around a 719 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 3: magic stone that had some kind of like potency and 720 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 3: meaning for his fate. But anyway, motivated in part by 721 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,839 Speaker 3: their theosophical beliefs, Nikolai and Elena attempted to lead an 722 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:04,240 Speaker 3: expedition in the nineteen twenties to find Shambala in Tibet, 723 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 3: to find the entrance to Shambala, and not only that, 724 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 3: but Nikolai would eventually come to see himself and to 725 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:17,920 Speaker 3: style himself as Rigg Danneppo, the King of Shambala, and 726 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 3: so he had like ceremonial robes and other trappings of 727 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 3: this station created befitting his kingly destiny. Apparently, his claim 728 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 3: to be the King of Shambala did not go over 729 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 3: amazingly well with the Tibetans, and ultimately the expedition was 730 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 3: considered a failure. Rareck got incredibly mad at Tibet and 731 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,280 Speaker 3: at Buddhism after this and published a bunch of nasty 732 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 3: things about them. But coming back to the statue, where 733 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 3: did the statue come from? Engelhart argues, based on a 734 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 3: number of clues, that it's quite likely that Rarick had 735 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:59,760 Speaker 3: this statue made out of meteorite iron around nineteen twenty 736 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 3: six to nineteen twenty seven in order to represent himself 737 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 3: as the king of Shambala, and that's why it bears 738 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 3: these similarities to the sketch and the painting that he 739 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 3: did of himself in this posture. And this would have 740 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 3: probably been done by a metal worker somewhere in Urga, 741 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 3: the capital of Mongolia today known as Ulaanbatar, and this 742 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 3: would have been while the Rareks were staying there in 743 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:32,399 Speaker 3: preparation for their expedition Tibet. So I think we would 744 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,280 Speaker 3: need more like physical evidence to make the link for sure, 745 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 3: But I think it's good detective work, and Englehart makes 746 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 3: a really strong case, circumstantial case based on the similarities 747 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 3: of the artworks and themes that we know that Rarik 748 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 3: and Rarek and his family were very interested in. So 749 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 3: it seems quite plausible to me. Anyway. I think that'll 750 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 3: do it for today's episode on the iron from space. 751 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 3: But I feel like we've got more to talk about 752 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 3: with this subject now, Rob, I think you've got an 753 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 3: interview scheduled to run on Tuesday of next week, right, 754 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,359 Speaker 3: But can we come back with part three of this 755 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 3: discussion on Thursday? 756 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely? Yeah. We have more examples of potential meteoric iron 757 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: artifacts to discuss and more related topics. So we'll come 758 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 1: back for a part three on Thursday with an interview 759 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: episode airing on Tuesday that's not related. 760 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 3: To this topic. Sounds great, can't wait. 761 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,760 Speaker 1: In the meantime, certainly? Right in? If you have thoughts 762 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 1: on the alleged iron Man, well, I mean, I guess 763 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: the iron part is not alleged. He's it's a man. 764 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: He's made out of iron. He is iron Man. No, 765 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 1: we can doubt that. We can't take that away from him. 766 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: But if you have thoughts on that, or if you 767 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:49,840 Speaker 1: have thoughts on Chinese artifacts in Chinese mythology right in, 768 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you. Also, if there are 769 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: other examples from other cultures that we haven't covered so far, 770 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: bring them up, because we do have a few things 771 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,719 Speaker 1: lined up to discuss. But if you get us in time, 772 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: you might be we might be able to add it 773 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,800 Speaker 1: to the list, or if it comes in after the fact, 774 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: perhaps it's something we can discuss on our listener Mail episodes. 775 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,400 Speaker 1: Our listener Mail episodes publish on Mondays, and the Stuff 776 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,240 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind podcast feed core episodes on Tuesdays 777 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,360 Speaker 1: and Thursdays, short form episode on Wednesdays and on Fridays. 778 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,640 Speaker 1: We set aside most serious concerns to just talk about 779 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,000 Speaker 1: a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 780 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,040 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 781 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 782 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,760 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 783 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 784 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 785 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 786 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,520 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 787 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,399 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 788 00:48:54,560 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.