1
00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

2
00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120
Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

3
00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,680
Speaker 1: today's best minds and EDG prices continue to rise under Trump.

4
00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,360
Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today to

5
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,960
Speaker 1: the Contrary Newsletter author Charlie Sykes stops by to talk

6
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,360
Speaker 1: about Trump's attacks on his political opponents. Then we'll talk

7
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,480
Speaker 1: to Democracy Americana's Thomas Zimmer about how Project twenty twenty

8
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,600
Speaker 1: five is happening right now. But first the news.

9
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,600
Speaker 2: Smillie, we have the rarest thing in America. And I

10
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,640
Speaker 2: don't mean one of those pokemons you find very oddly somewhere.

11
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,680
Speaker 2: I mean a's nine to zero Supreme Court ruling.

12
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, it turns out that even Alito and Thomas believe

13
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 1: in due process.

14
00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:55,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I am shocked. I am very shocked.

15
00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,080
Speaker 1: Right, You know things are bad when Alito and Thomas,

16
00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,760
Speaker 1: Alita and Thomas are like wa wa WHOA. Now I'm

17
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,720
Speaker 1: going to say something which you're not going to hear

18
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,920
Speaker 1: other people say. But I wonder if it's true. Again,

19
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,320
Speaker 1: this is conjecture. I am not speaking with any insider knowledge.

20
00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 1: There has not been reporting on this. Just I want

21
00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,320
Speaker 1: you to think for a second. During Tariff Mentum, tariff gait,

22
00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,760
Speaker 1: right the tariff Apocalypse Liberation Day, when Trump liberated the

23
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,480
Speaker 1: markets of billions of dollars, there was a group that

24
00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 1: got together to sue Trump and to take away the

25
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,600
Speaker 1: tariff power. This group was headed by who very close

26
00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,479
Speaker 1: personal friends of Thomas and Alito. There is a case

27
00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 1: that is winding its way to the Supreme Court right

28
00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 1: now to take away Trump's tariff authority and it is

29
00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 1: funded by Leonard Leo and the surviving Koch brother And

30
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 1: I just want you to know that that is happening

31
00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,240
Speaker 1: at the same time that Alito and Thomas. And maybe

32
00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,920
Speaker 1: this is the only time ever that Alito and Thomas

33
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 1: rule against Trump. Maybe this is it. Maybe they really

34
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:11,120
Speaker 1: believe in due process. But maybe the fact that they're

35
00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 1: people that Leonard Leo has a case that is going

36
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,040
Speaker 1: against Trump for taps, maybe there is a real split

37
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,840
Speaker 1: in the Republican party starting. And again we don't know,

38
00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 1: we don't know what this means. But I'm just saying

39
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 1: Thomas and Alito have never ever, ever, ever done anything

40
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,040
Speaker 1: but rubber stamp Trump's bullshit. So this seems notable to me.

41
00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,680
Speaker 1: And maybe it just happens once, but maybe not.

42
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really was shocked. Another really shocking thing was

43
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,799
Speaker 2: Trump bragging in the Oval Office about how much money

44
00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,200
Speaker 2: his buddies and donors made. Why don't we to go

45
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 2: listen to that clip.

46
00:02:54,360 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 1: It's not just today. Yeah. So Democrats want to make

47
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,360
Speaker 1: this about insider trading, and for sure this is a kleptocracy.

48
00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,880
Speaker 1: Donald Trump will insider trade. He probably already has insider traded.

49
00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,880
Speaker 1: There is an endless possibility here of insider trading. That said,

50
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,360
Speaker 1: there is also just stupidity and incompetence happening in our

51
00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 1: public markets. And I actually think that Democrats should talk

52
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 1: more about the stupidity and incompetence. They can also talk

53
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,120
Speaker 1: about the corruption. But just this, a Democrat had behaved

54
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,560
Speaker 1: like this and had lost billions of dollars in value

55
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,680
Speaker 1: for no fucking reason. If a Democrat had done this,

56
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,520
Speaker 1: Republicans would be through the roof. So honestly, yes, there

57
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,280
Speaker 1: is absolutely corruption. If we ever get back to normal democracy,

58
00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,200
Speaker 1: this thing is going to unroll like you can't believe.

59
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,840
Speaker 1: But I still think it's important to also explain the

60
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,440
Speaker 1: stupid because this is all very very very stupid.

61
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Incredibly, with that has come a reaction, of course,

62
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,039
Speaker 2: to the stupid, which is these people should be investigated

63
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,200
Speaker 2: for insider trading, including Marjorie Taylor Green.

64
00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you'll be shocked to hear this. Marjorie

65
00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,360
Speaker 1: Taylor Green did a lot of buying.

66
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:25,800
Speaker 3: You know.

67
00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,640
Speaker 1: Again, there's obviously corruption, and we have a rule of

68
00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,240
Speaker 1: law for reason, and all of this should be followed

69
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,279
Speaker 1: through with. I don't know Marjorie Taylor Green. You know,

70
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,840
Speaker 1: she could have also bought because she was I don't know.

71
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,400
Speaker 1: I'm not as convinced about that. What I am convinced

72
00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,880
Speaker 1: about is that the way that Donald Trump is running

73
00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,159
Speaker 1: this government is absolutely beyond moronic, and I think that

74
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,920
Speaker 1: is a real question. I do also think that it's

75
00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,360
Speaker 1: important to remember that the fact that Marjorie Taylor Green

76
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,680
Speaker 1: has been so elevated in this administ station. We'll remember

77
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,279
Speaker 1: eight years ago, in twenty eighteen, she was considered to

78
00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,920
Speaker 1: be the fringe of all fringes. Okay, it's twenty twenty five,

79
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 1: and she is now like the sort of Jeff Flake

80
00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,160
Speaker 1: of previous administrations. I mean, she is really one of

81
00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,800
Speaker 1: Trump's go tos, and I think that we sort of

82
00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 1: lose track on how crazy the right has become over

83
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:25,400
Speaker 1: the last six years.

84
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I do think she's a striking example. Going

85
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,200
Speaker 2: from a net worth of seven hundred thousand dollars to

86
00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,080
Speaker 2: twenty two million since she gets to Congress is a

87
00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,440
Speaker 2: real telling story about how bad this has gotten.

88
00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I also think she came from money. She

89
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,880
Speaker 1: inherited money from her father. She's come from a construction business,

90
00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,120
Speaker 1: her family construction business, so I wonder how much of

91
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,200
Speaker 1: that was inheritance. A lot of these people in Congress

92
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 1: are very rich, right, which is part of the problem.

93
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 1: But they should not be allowed to trade stock that period.

94
00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,880
Speaker 1: Paragraph should stop tomorrow, Members of Congress. If you are

95
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,720
Speaker 1: serving your country, you should not also be serving your

96
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:03,440
Speaker 1: bank account.

97
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I am convinced we'd get much better candidates

98
00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,560
Speaker 2: if this didn't exist. Anyway, speaking of things that we

99
00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,320
Speaker 2: could do to make this country get better people is

100
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 2: not televised cabinet meetings where everybody licks your feet and

101
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,240
Speaker 2: it looks like an episode of The Apprentice.

102
00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so hot take. I actually think you're wrong. I

103
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 1: think Democrats should. One of the many things Trump does

104
00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,960
Speaker 1: is he televises everything, right, so he tele advises he

105
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,919
Speaker 1: has the White House press pool in all the time.

106
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,680
Speaker 1: He does pool sprays. That's when he answers questions for journalists.

107
00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,440
Speaker 1: He does interviews, he's on television, he does podcasts. He

108
00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,280
Speaker 1: does this constantly doing media, even I mean to the

109
00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,600
Speaker 1: point where it's like I was watching him give a

110
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,360
Speaker 1: press conference the other day and c Spahan cut away

111
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,159
Speaker 1: because he did so much. I actually think this is

112
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:58,960
Speaker 1: really smart because people pay so little attention that you

113
00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 1: have to just be out there all the fucking time.

114
00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 1: So I actually think when you watch these televised cabinet meetings,

115
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,000
Speaker 1: this is something that normal politicians do not televise cabinet

116
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,800
Speaker 1: meetings because it's ridiculous and they just don't do it.

117
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,760
Speaker 1: That said, I actually think it's really smart because first

118
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,120
Speaker 1: of all, you get to see, how I mean, these

119
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,080
Speaker 1: cabinet meetings are just people telling dear leader how great

120
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,520
Speaker 1: he is. But you get to see how government works

121
00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,760
Speaker 1: and the push and pull, and part of why I

122
00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,520
Speaker 1: think people are so removed from government is because they

123
00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,680
Speaker 1: don't totally know how it works. There isn't the kind

124
00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,880
Speaker 1: of transparency that we need. And if there were more transparency,

125
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,600
Speaker 1: more people would run for office. They would be like, oh,

126
00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,800
Speaker 1: this actually doesn't seem so hard. You would also get

127
00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,320
Speaker 1: to see more accountability in government. You would see people

128
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,120
Speaker 1: understanding how laws get passed. There is no reason to

129
00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,640
Speaker 1: not have a completely transparent federal government, and this should

130
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 1: be wanted on the left and the right. Right, there's

131
00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,120
Speaker 1: no reason that every one shouldn't know where our fucking

132
00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,680
Speaker 1: tax dollars are going. So, I mean, as someone on

133
00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 1: the left, I truly believe this. I really think people

134
00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,400
Speaker 1: on the right have been saying this for a long time.

135
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,720
Speaker 1: I mean, also they've been saying a lot of other

136
00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,360
Speaker 1: stuff that negates some of that. But you know, total transparency,

137
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,320
Speaker 1: televise everything, do it. And also I think that it's good.

138
00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,160
Speaker 1: I think it's content and it ends up places and

139
00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,800
Speaker 1: people see it, and you need people paying attention in

140
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,800
Speaker 1: order for democracy to survive, and these kind of things.

141
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,320
Speaker 1: I mean, one of Democrats' biggest failings is that they

142
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,680
Speaker 1: feel that people will read press releases. And nobody fucking

143
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,840
Speaker 1: will read a press release. People want to see real stuff,

144
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,720
Speaker 1: and this is actually real stuff. Yeah, sorry, Jesse, you're

145
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:44,640
Speaker 1: really sick of me.

146
00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,240
Speaker 2: I just don't know that this is the place for it.

147
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,640
Speaker 1: But do it. But if you have liberals too.

148
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,440
Speaker 2: I agree with you in philosophy. I just don't know

149
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:54,199
Speaker 2: if I agree with you.

150
00:08:54,320 --> 00:09:00,560
Speaker 1: A venue do it, man, do it. Charlie is the

151
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,439
Speaker 1: author of the Newsletter to the Contrary and the book

152
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 1: How the Right Lost Its Mind Welcome Too Fast Politics.

153
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,199
Speaker 1: Charlie Sykes, good to be back Executive orders. Never Trumper's

154
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,559
Speaker 1: had a bad week when it comes to Donald Trump

155
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,440
Speaker 1: targeting them discuss.

156
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,840
Speaker 4: Well, I'm glad you brought this up, because you know,

157
00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,520
Speaker 4: we can make a long list of things that Donald

158
00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 4: Trump has done that reminds us that he's blowing through

159
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 4: every single red line of authoritarianism. But targeting Chris Krebbs

160
00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,840
Speaker 4: really was breathtaking. People who don't know, very highly respected

161
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,760
Speaker 4: cyber security guru brought in by the Trump administration to

162
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 4: oversee the twenty twenty election, did a good job and

163
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,839
Speaker 4: then told the truth. Said yes, this was a safe,

164
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,920
Speaker 4: fair election. And Donald Trump has never forgiven him, fired

165
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 4: him by tweet. Cribs has gone on with his life.

166
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,720
Speaker 4: But Donald Trump has decided that he is now going

167
00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 4: to effectively criminalize belief in the validity of the twenty

168
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,480
Speaker 4: twenty election. I mean, well, get your head around this

169
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,320
Speaker 4: that he sits in the Oval Office, targeting somebody for

170
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,760
Speaker 4: actual legal action who he has apparently been obsessing about

171
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,320
Speaker 4: for four years because they would not go along with

172
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,600
Speaker 4: the big law. So in many ways, it's kind of

173
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,800
Speaker 4: the same old, same old. If you break the law

174
00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,720
Speaker 4: and try to overturn an election, he's going to pardon you.

175
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,720
Speaker 4: If you tell the truth about the election, he's going

176
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,720
Speaker 4: to sick the new Justice Department on you. This did

177
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,959
Speaker 4: feel like one of his most egregious abuses.

178
00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:37,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, Chris crabs. And also he's continually you know, the lawyers,

179
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,400
Speaker 1: the law firms, the law firms that represented those election

180
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:42,720
Speaker 1: workers in Georgia.

181
00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, by the way, fuck the quizzling law firms were

182
00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,960
Speaker 4: caving in. I mean, this goes to the very heart

183
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:49,840
Speaker 4: of what it means to have the rule of law.

184
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 4: That he's now going after the law firms that were

185
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 4: doing their job that successfully win, after the media, right

186
00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,360
Speaker 4: wing media companies that lied about the election, the people

187
00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,800
Speaker 4: who defamed election workers, people who are suing people like

188
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,160
Speaker 4: the MyPillow guy. And so I mean it's there's no

189
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 4: government function here. He's using his power to pursue a

190
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,640
Speaker 4: private political vendetta. And I'm sorry to say that most

191
00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,679
Speaker 4: of civil society seems to be shrugging its shoulders, and

192
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,040
Speaker 4: law firms seem to be in this mad scramble to

193
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,400
Speaker 4: see you know, who can climb up there but the fastest.

194
00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,400
Speaker 4: I mean, I just it's appalling. It is a bad week.

195
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, these executive orders, a lot of them aren't so legal.

196
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 1: These executive orders are often more messaging than actual like

197
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,960
Speaker 1: they'll get thrown out. But one of the things that

198
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,880
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about is that, and actually I talked

199
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,840
Speaker 1: to an academic who was talking about this. All the

200
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,000
Speaker 1: people who we thought would stand up have really not

201
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,520
Speaker 1: law firms, billionaires. I think that the media has actually

202
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: weirdly now is, at least when it comes to reporting

203
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,040
Speaker 1: side down, a pretty good job. But there has really

204
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,199
Speaker 1: been a lot of obeying an event.

205
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 4: There have been, I mean, there has been some resistance

206
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,079
Speaker 4: who want to give a shout out to the people

207
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 4: who continue to hold firm. But this has been the

208
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,160
Speaker 4: biggest surprise I think of the last several months. Look,

209
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,200
Speaker 4: you and I have talked about this. Donald Trump is

210
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,320
Speaker 4: who he is, right, He's doing what he said he

211
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,680
Speaker 4: was going to do. You and I warned people that

212
00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,240
Speaker 4: Donald Trump was going to be this way The surprise

213
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,680
Speaker 4: was watching all these other folks cave in and cave

214
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,960
Speaker 4: in in the most craven way possible. The law firms

215
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,680
Speaker 4: keep coming back to these guys. They could win these cases,

216
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:32,920
Speaker 4: but they choose not to even fight them, and there

217
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,959
Speaker 4: is this sort of shrugging despair that unfortunately is emboldening

218
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,160
Speaker 4: and empowering the Trump administration. Because what has to happen

219
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,880
Speaker 4: for autocracy to be resistant collective action. The people need

220
00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,040
Speaker 4: to stand up and say no, we're not going along.

221
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:50,880
Speaker 4: But not just the people. We need to have the

222
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,880
Speaker 4: various institutions of society. We need to have the guard

223
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 4: rails in place, and unfortunately Donald Trump blows through the

224
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,319
Speaker 4: guard rails, and the business community, the billionaire even people,

225
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,440
Speaker 4: some people in the media and in the law firm

226
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,320
Speaker 4: and in the universities have decided that for some reason,

227
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,080
Speaker 4: it's not worth fighting, in part because they look around

228
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,880
Speaker 4: and see that no one else is fighting, so they figure, well,

229
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,680
Speaker 4: then why should we put our necks out if everybody

230
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 4: else is If everybody else stood up and said, America

231
00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,040
Speaker 4: is still America, the law is still the law. We

232
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,560
Speaker 4: are not going to go along with this, it would,

233
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,960
Speaker 4: in fact, I think inspire more resistance. But that's not

234
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,040
Speaker 4: what's happening now. Again, we ought to like mention that,

235
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,280
Speaker 4: as you and I are speaking, Donald Trump is getting

236
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 4: some absolute brutal poll numbers. There is a suggestion that

237
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,440
Speaker 4: perhaps something is happening out there now. Whether that emboldens

238
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:40,680
Speaker 4: the cowards, we don't know.

239
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. There were

240
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,480
Speaker 1: so many authoritarian things that Trump did before quote unquote

241
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,480
Speaker 1: Liberation Day last Wednesday, when he crashed the public markets

242
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,800
Speaker 1: for no reason. But it seems that Liberation Day may

243
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:59,680
Speaker 1: have done some of the things that these authoritarian moves,

244
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,480
Speaker 1: in my mind, should have gotten people awake too.

245
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,760
Speaker 4: Yes, they should have well woken up. And you know,

246
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 4: but there's something about focusing on the loss of trillions

247
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,400
Speaker 4: of dollars that will focus the mind right. And what

248
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,439
Speaker 4: I wrote was look as bad as the market meltdown was,

249
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,560
Speaker 4: and it was horrific, And I'm not minimizing that what's

250
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,920
Speaker 4: left behind is even scarier, which is to realize that

251
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,840
Speaker 4: the entire economy now hangs by the whim of one man,

252
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,760
Speaker 4: that somehow this country, which you know as a constitutional republic,

253
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,560
Speaker 4: now is waiting on one man with no check to

254
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 4: unilaterally decide what happens with trillions of dollars and not

255
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 4: just that, but all of these other issues. Because Congress

256
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,040
Speaker 4: has basically gelded itself, the courts are still a big

257
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,200
Speaker 4: question mark. You know, the business community is not yet

258
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,080
Speaker 4: pushing back against him. So somehow we are already at

259
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,000
Speaker 4: this moment where in order to do business you have

260
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,560
Speaker 4: to go you have to, you know, go on bended

261
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,080
Speaker 4: knee Tomorrow Lago or the three own room and kissed

262
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,800
Speaker 4: Donald Trump's ring. And we keep talking about that we

263
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,600
Speaker 4: don't have any kings. Kings had parliaments they had to

264
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,600
Speaker 4: deal with, right, they did have checks on them. We're

265
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 4: we're now at like Donald Trump is the emperor and

266
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,360
Speaker 4: it's like, how the fuck did we get here? How

267
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 4: did this happen? And why are we letting this happen?

268
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I was just interviewing someone who's in the

269
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,000
Speaker 1: UK and he was saying that watching millions of people

270
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,240
Speaker 1: last weekend protest, it was like, oh, wow, Americans haven't

271
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,200
Speaker 1: all lost their collective minds.

272
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 4: This would be an important message to get out to

273
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 4: the world, don't you think.

274
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,480
Speaker 1: Yes, we were talking a lot about people not wanting

275
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 1: to absorb the news because it was just sucked, right,

276
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,680
Speaker 1: But you can't when you look at your four oh

277
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,840
Speaker 1: one K and it's now a four oh one, you

278
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 1: can't ignore that. You are going to look at the

279
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,480
Speaker 1: news when things like that happen.

280
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,160
Speaker 4: Yes, and of course people lost a great deal of money.

281
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,080
Speaker 4: But I also think it is the chaos, and we're

282
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 4: hearing that word a lot, that the chaos, the uncertainty,

283
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,320
Speaker 4: the complete unpredictability, the way in which the world has

284
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 4: been turned upside down. You know, America is right now

285
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,600
Speaker 4: in an escalating game of economic chicken with China, a

286
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,640
Speaker 4: nuclear power, and we have no allies right now. We

287
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 4: have insulted, threatened, bullied all of our allies. And so

288
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,920
Speaker 4: you know America first right now is America vulnerable, America

289
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,320
Speaker 4: weaker than it was before, America poorer than it was before,

290
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,200
Speaker 4: and America very isolated.

291
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Canada has a catchphrase elbows up, which is meant

292
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:46,960
Speaker 1: to signify their resistance to America. Yeah, right, elbows up.

293
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 1: That's what they tell each other when they think about us.

294
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,480
Speaker 4: And I'm sorry, I'm shaking my head here because we

295
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,920
Speaker 4: need to keep asking the question, how did we get here?

296
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 4: In what weird time warp have we slipped in where

297
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,959
Speaker 4: we are at odds with Canada, where we are threatening Denmark,

298
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 4: where we're insulting the European Union, where we're kissing up

299
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,719
Speaker 4: to Vladimir Putin, and where we're again building these huge

300
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 4: walls that are crashing an economy that five minutes ago

301
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,360
Speaker 4: was the enity of the world. And yet it's not

302
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 4: just that Donald Trump is this narcissistic, ignorant, megalomaniac. It's

303
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,720
Speaker 4: that we're letting him do this. Congress is letting him

304
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,080
Speaker 4: do this, the courts are going to let him do this.

305
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 4: The American establishment is letting him get away with this.

306
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to sort of talk about what we

307
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,159
Speaker 1: did see that was actually good. This yea, and there

308
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,000
Speaker 1: was some There was some right the Supreme Court, even

309
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: Thomas and Alito, who are basically Hannity and Tucker, said

310
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,880
Speaker 1: that even if you are not a United States citizen,

311
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,440
Speaker 1: you are still entitled to do process. It's sad we're

312
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 1: celebrating this, but it's also important.

313
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 4: It is important for some People's a half class four,

314
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 4: half class empty type thing. Because they didn't order the

315
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,199
Speaker 4: government to return the man who had been sent to

316
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 4: El Salvador illegally. They just said that the administration had

317
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 4: to expedite it. But I do think I'm going to

318
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 4: look on the brighter side and the fact that it

319
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 4: was nine to nothing, not five four nine zero, That

320
00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,120
Speaker 4: you just cannot snatch someone and without due process send

321
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,640
Speaker 4: them out of the country when you have no evidence

322
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,080
Speaker 4: of any wrongdoing whatsoever. So that was kind of a

323
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 4: sigh of relief because if the court had gone the

324
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,000
Speaker 4: other way, it would have been horrific. Then you and

325
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,159
Speaker 4: I would have been writing the pieces like it is done.

326
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 4: You know, we've been waiting for the red line, and

327
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:39,120
Speaker 4: that's the fucking red line.

328
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:39,439
Speaker 1: That's it.

329
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,720
Speaker 4: There's no coming back from that. That is a positive.

330
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 4: I mean, there have been so many positive signs and

331
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,720
Speaker 4: I don't want to discount them. And what happened in

332
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 4: Florida and in my home state of Wisconsin, you know,

333
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,160
Speaker 4: the Quarry Booker speech, the huge crowds that turned out,

334
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 4: the resistance, the blowback that Donald Trump has gotten for

335
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 4: tanking the markets. I mean, all of these things are

336
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 4: not insignificant, but they're not sufficient to change the trajectory

337
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,399
Speaker 4: we're on, especially as as you started this conversation pointing

338
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 4: out that he continues to do things in broad daylight

339
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 4: that are absolutely breathtaking. I mean, you know, look a

340
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,240
Speaker 4: few years ago, the President the United States tweeting out

341
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 4: stock tips to his buddies, you know, right before you know,

342
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 4: a major market moving announcement that would have been you know,

343
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,679
Speaker 4: the scandal of the century. And now it's like, you know,

344
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 4: just another Wednesday afternoon. You know, a few years ago,

345
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 4: the President the United States sitting in the Oval Office

346
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,199
Speaker 4: with you know, in front of the cameras, issuing orders

347
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 4: to go after a political foe who did not break

348
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,239
Speaker 4: the lawn anyway whatsoever, like Chris Krebs, would have been

349
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,919
Speaker 4: a Nixon level scandal, and now it barely survives the

350
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 4: news cycle. I mean, think about there's Gretchen Whitmer standing

351
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,719
Speaker 4: there like some potted plant. He uses her as a

352
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,200
Speaker 4: as a prop you know, while he is doing something

353
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 4: that no president would have done in broad daylight before

354
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 4: three days ago.

355
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 1: So let's talk about Gretchen Wimer. Gretchen Wimer. Is that

356
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 1: a cautionary tale of when Democrats try appeasement? I mean,

357
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,719
Speaker 1: I understand in the Midwest there is a real and

358
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 1: you are in the Midwest, so you know that there

359
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 1: was real manufacturing loss that people still feel they want

360
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 1: some tariffs, just not insane tariffs for no reason. Do

361
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,239
Speaker 1: you think that was a miss But clearly like the

362
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: optics of it. You know, he's signing an executive order

363
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 1: to target Chris Krabs while the Democratic governor of Michigan

364
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 1: is standing there. So it seems like that was really

365
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: a mistake and Democratic voters really hate the idea of

366
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 1: Democrats working with this. But just talk me through what

367
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,639
Speaker 1: you think went wrong there or didn't.

368
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 4: Well, pretty much everything went wrong. I mean, I get

369
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 4: the point of buying more nuanced approach to teris there's

370
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 4: a time and a place for everything. Actually showing up

371
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 4: and letting yourself be manipulated that way by Donald Trump

372
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 4: and the White House? Is that a cautionary tale? Are

373
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,159
Speaker 4: you kidding me? Of course it is. This again is

374
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 4: one of those moments. Do you understand who this man is,

375
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 4: what he is doing. Do you understand the moment we're in,

376
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 4: Because if you do, you don't go to the White

377
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,959
Speaker 4: House under these circumstances to allow yourself to put yourself

378
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,640
Speaker 4: in the position of being a prop for Donald Trump.

379
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 4: And I guess I was surprised by her naivete that

380
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 4: she thought that that was not going to be disastrous. See,

381
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 4: let me ask you, and what an alternative universe does

382
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 4: that work out great for her? Hey, you're sitting in

383
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 4: the room. Hey, Gretchen, you know I hear you're going

384
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 4: to the Trump White House to do some bipartisan thing.

385
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,640
Speaker 4: This is why that's a good idea. What's the next sentence?

386
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 4: I mean what?

387
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, I mean I think that this is the car.

388
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 1: You know, this is everything Trump touches.

389
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 4: Right, I've heard this.

390
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: He doesn't play well with others. You're not going to

391
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,400
Speaker 1: get anything from him, and offering him a photo op

392
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: will only destroy your career. Yes, and also your voters

393
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 1: want you to oppose him. I mean, contrast her to

394
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 1: that governor from Maine, right, Janet Mills, where he said

395
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 1: we're going to hold backfunding and she said, I'll see

396
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: you in.

397
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 4: Court, which is the right answer. Which is the right answer.

398
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 4: And of course he's not going to retaliate against Maine.

399
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 4: He's going to try to hurt Maine. Look, this is

400
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 4: the thing. Donald Trump is not a great negotiator. The

401
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 4: trick of Donald Trump is he's just a bully. He's

402
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 4: a playground bully, and the more he gets away with it,

403
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 4: the more he's going to bully. But anybody that punches

404
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 4: the bully back has a chance to find out that

405
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 4: the bully's also a coward, and so more people need

406
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 4: to punch back because the cathing in is not working

407
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 4: out for us. I mean, I understand the people who

408
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 4: figure out I have to cover my ass, you know,

409
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 4: I will you know, lose this or lose that. Well,

410
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 4: some at some point we all hang together or we're

411
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 4: going to hang separately. And there's not a lot of

412
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 4: recognition of that at the moment. Unfortunately. Well maybe it's growing.

413
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 4: I don't know, you know, just before we started this conversation,

414
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 4: I'm looking at some of these new polling numbers of

415
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 4: Americans just getting sick of him. Look, the magabase is

416
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 4: not going to budge, but let's I'm sick of talking

417
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 4: about the MAGA base because the MAGA base is not

418
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 4: the whole country. There are a lot of people who,

419
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, and we don't need to relitigate that

420
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 4: wanted change, you know, deluded themselves about who and what

421
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 4: Donald Trump was. But they're seeing the chaos and it

422
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 4: bothers them. The question is whether or not. This changes

423
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 4: the political dynamic, I mean in a fundamental way, in

424
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 4: a way that it hasn't over the last ten years.

425
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 4: And I am fully aware of you and I have

426
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 4: had these conversations. We've been in these conversations over and

427
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 4: over and over. This is the turning point. This is

428
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 4: it that you know that he won't come back from this,

429
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 4: or the walls are closing in on him, and it

430
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 4: always turns out to be now nothing ever matters, But

431
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 4: who knows, trillions of dollars disappearing from people's accounts might

432
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 4: make a difference. And also the sense that this guy

433
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 4: has no fucking idea what he's doing.

434
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've seen very rich people online like I mean,

435
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: some of them have sucophantically sucked up to him, and

436
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: the hopes that sucking up to him will get him

437
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: to act rationally will that has never been true, but

438
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 1: perhaps it will be true. Now Who am I to

439
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 1: But you certainly see these very rich people being like.

440
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 4: Oh, maybe I don't know.

441
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: I mean, they definitely see that he's not playing three

442
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: dimensional chats.

443
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 4: Well I hope not. They're seeing that. I mean, I

444
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 4: think that was what rattled a lot of people, that

445
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 4: he didn't have a plan, but of course the power

446
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 4: of rationalization is so great, and you know, there was

447
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 4: a moment at which they were so relieved. Okay, so

448
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 4: we finally got an adult, the one adult in the

449
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 4: cabinet maybe you know in there Bessen who talked to him,

450
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 4: who talked him down. But you know, so the stock

451
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 4: market absolutely exploded, and then people were realize, well, wait, wait, wait, wait,

452
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 4: we still have these massive tariffs with China, and they're

453
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 4: playing this weird game. It's almost like a cartoon game. No,

454
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 4: it's one hundred and four percent. No, well it's one

455
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 4: hundred and twenty five percent, one hundred and forty five percent.

456
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 4: Well then I'm going to one hundred and twenty five whatever.

457
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 4: Not a pretty picture. So all of that relief I

458
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 4: think was followed by a reality check. He's still him

459
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 4: and we are still at his mercy in his head.

460
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 4: And by the way, I'm not I don't want to

461
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 4: gloss over the incredible potential for corruption here or the

462
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 4: insider trading. Is that you know, the reality is that

463
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 4: Donald Trump now can move tens of trillions of dollars

464
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 4: of world wealth buy something in his own head, no

465
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 4: political check or balance that he decides, you know what,

466
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 4: I'm going to put on social media a good time

467
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 4: to buy stocks, doesn't make an announcement through the White House,

468
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 4: puts on his own social media site. His buddies go out,

469
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 4: bye bye bye, and then he announces this terror thing.

470
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 4: And now this is the new normal, right, this is

471
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 4: the new reality that Donald Trump knows that he can

472
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 4: make the stock market go up or down simply by

473
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 4: his whim. A single post can move vast amounts of money,

474
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 4: more money, by the way, than is at stake in

475
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 4: these tax cuts in the budget. He doesn't need Congress,

476
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 4: he doesn't need anybody. He just needs his own fucking thumbs.

477
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,479
Speaker 1: Charlie Sikes, thank you.

478
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 4: I said fucking thumbs on your podcast. I'm sorry.

479
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: Tomas Zimmer is a historian at George Washington University and

480
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: the author of the substack Democracy Americana. Welcome Back, Too

481
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: Fast Politics, My friend, Thomas.

482
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 5: Zimmer, thank you so much for having me back. One

483
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 5: of these days. Hopefully maybe we can talk about something

484
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 5: just nice and you know, beautiful and.

485
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: Yes, and we'll talk about how happy we are and rainbows,

486
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 1: talk about something nice. I don't know if you know this,

487
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: but we cannot have nice things here. No, So I

488
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: want to like talk for a minute about you and

489
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: I's relationships. In July. You were really a big part

490
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: of this podcast that we did about Project twenty twenty

491
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: five and what it would look like. We were right,

492
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: no one believed us, and Donald Trump became president and

493
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: immediately started enacting Project twenty twenty five discuss.

494
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 5: So, yeah, I think it is interesting. I think there

495
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 5: was a moment last summer when people seem to believe

496
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 5: that Project twenty twenty five was actually real and was

497
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 5: coming right. There was there was a lot of talk.

498
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 5: It broke through at some point in the summer and

499
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 5: it became really toxic. And that's why that was the

500
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 5: reason why Trump himself and you know, the Trump campaign

501
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 5: they tried to distance themselves from it. Remember they talked

502
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 5: all about oh I don't know nothing about it and

503
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 5: all that kind of it was obviously nonsense, but you know,

504
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 5: they the fact that they tried to distance themselves told you, oh, okay,

505
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 5: say they think this is toxic, they think this is

506
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 5: going to make it hard for them to win the election,

507
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 5: And then yeah, I think so to me, right, it's

508
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 5: interesting that the Project twenty twenty five, people are certainly

509
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 5: claiming victory. I don't know if you saw this what

510
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 5: Paul Dance, the former director. When he was still at Heritage,

511
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 5: he was the official director of the whole planning operation.

512
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 5: He has recently claimed, yeah, we did it, and then

513
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 5: you know, we are so successful. They're not doing everything

514
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 5: we told him to do. By the way, that guy

515
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 5: left the project twenty twenty five and complete disgrace. He

516
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 5: was fired for toxic workplace behavior last summer.

517
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, by the way, the fact that you can still

518
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: get fired for toxic work place behavior in that yes,

519
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: I mean, imagine how bad it has to be, right.

520
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, in that Heritage scene. Absolutely. Yeah, So yeah, I

521
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 5: wouldn't necessarily trust that guy. Just because he says they're

522
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 5: doing everything we told him to do, it doesn't necessarily

523
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 5: mean it's true. But I'm trying. So I might have

524
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 5: been taught thinking about a lot about where are we

525
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 5: and what is the best way to kind of understand

526
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 5: what's happening. And I think to me the most important

527
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 5: thing is so the speed and the scope of this assault,

528
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 5: of this assault on the constitution and democratic order. I

529
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 5: think it's crazy how far they've been able to take

530
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 5: us away from a functioning democratic system and into authoritarian territory.

531
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 5: And when I think about why is it that they

532
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 5: have made so much counquid progress in their terms, it's

533
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 5: a completely different ballgame compared to the first Trump administration,

534
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 5: And a big part of that is absolutely one hundred percent,

535
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 5: they were just better prepared this time, Right, there's no

536
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 5: question about it. That doesn't mean there isn't chaos. I mean, look,

537
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 5: we're talking just as they have just announced they're going

538
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 5: to pause the tariffs again, I guess, so there is

539
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 5: a lot of chaos and there's still a lot of incompetence,

540
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 5: and Donald Trump is still Donald Trump, meaning he is

541
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 5: just a bumbling, cartoonish kind of character. Right, But it's

542
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 5: also true that again if you compare it to the

543
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 5: first Trump administration, these planning operations, of which Project twenty

544
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 5: twenty five was sort of the most important one, they

545
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 5: have clearly had in effect. The whole point of Project

546
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 5: twenty twenty five was we're going to centralize all power

547
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 5: with the president, no checks on presidential power. They're clearly

548
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 5: doing that, right, they're clearly trying it. The way have

549
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 5: they have been pursuing. This is especially with executive orders

550
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 5: as as an instrument, and that is again, I mean,

551
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 5: a whole big part of Project twenty twenty five was

552
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 5: this thing they called one hundred and eighty day Playbook,

553
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 5: and that was all about basically drafting executive orders.

554
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: Right.

555
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 5: We don't know how many exactly they never made that public,

556
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 5: but at least like dozens, maybe hundreds, And clearly clearly

557
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 5: they have had this stuff ready this time. Right. And

558
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 5: I'll mention just one other thing that I think don't

559
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 5: not many people maybe talk about, but also the way

560
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 5: they're mobilizing the regulatory apparatus. Right, if you look at

561
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 5: something like the FCC, the Federal Communications Commissions, the guy

562
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 5: in charge of that is Brendan Carr, who wrote literally

563
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 5: wrote the chapter on the FCC in Project twenty twenty five,

564
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 5: and he was like, Hey, you know what we should

565
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 5: use the FCC for. We should use it as a weapon.

566
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 5: We should threaten investigations left and right, and we should

567
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 5: threaten to revoke licenses to make all these media institutions

568
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 5: do what we want them to do. And that's exactly

569
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 5: what he's been up to since he became FCC chair.

570
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 5: And so I think in all those areas you clearly see. Well,

571
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 5: this is very different from twenty six seventeen, and a

572
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 5: big part of what is different is that these planning

573
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 5: operations had in effect, no question about it. There is

574
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 5: some surprising stuff also, I don't think like the role

575
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 5: Elon Musk has played.

576
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, none of us, no knew that was coming, and.

577
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 5: I think that is important. Right, we have to be

578
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 5: able to say I mean, I get the impulse to

579
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 5: constantly say I told you so, right, but we also

580
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 5: have to be able to say, no, this is not

581
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 5: something that's in Project twenty twenty five is complete, Like

582
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 5: this fever dream of this kind of anarcho capitalist Fudel

583
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 5: order that he's living, right, that was not in Project

584
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 5: twenty twenty five. I think it only partially aligns with

585
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 5: the goals of Project twenty twenty five because if you remember, yes,

586
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 5: some parts of the state they wanted to just get

587
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 5: rid of and eliminate, but other parts of the state

588
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 5: they wanted to use in Project twenty twenty five. They

589
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 5: think they need to use that as an instrument to

590
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 5: impose their idea of what America should be on America,

591
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 5: whereas Musk is just now I'm just gonna just this

592
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 5: all needs to go. I'm just gonna wipe this all away.

593
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 5: And I think at some point these are not fully

594
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 5: compatible those two things, right. I think that is one

595
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 5: of the factors where you can see it's not all

596
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 5: Project twenty twenty five, but in specific areas, in important ways,

597
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 5: this has made a significant impact on what has unfolded. Absolutely.

598
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things I like to do, and

599
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: I now discovered I'm completely alone in this, right because

600
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: nobody else does this but I do it, is I

601
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: like to think about what I've gotten right, what I've

602
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: gotten wrong, and since you and I we want to

603
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: learn from our mistakes. Project twenty twenty five. Yes, happening. Yes,

604
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: they are really growing presidential power. They are doing all

605
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: of these executive orders that they hope to sort of

606
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: kick up to the Supreme Court, things like birthright citizenship,

607
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: things like I mean this in a very pejorative way,

608
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: but they're sort of shooting for the stars.

609
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

610
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: Yes, they're going after things that they pretty much know

611
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: they can't get because they think that even if they

612
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: get a fifth.

613
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 3: Of it, it's worth it. Yeah, Absolutely, so talk about that. Yeah,

614
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 3: I think that's absolutely right. And they have decided this time,

615
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 3: no holding back. We're going to go all in and

616
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 3: we're not going to do very much. In contrast to

617
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: the first Drup administration, where they tried to stay within

618
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 3: there was some plausible deniability that what they were doing

619
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 3: was not like blatantly unconstitutional or blatantly illegal. This time

620
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: they're like, no, we're going to go for it. And

621
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 3: if it's blatantly illegal, blatantly unconstitutional, well let's see if

622
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 3: someone's going to do something about it. Right, And you

623
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 3: see this with how about we just eliminate departments or

624
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: agencies we don't like, which is again that's blatantly unconstitutional.

625
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 3: Those are like USAID, for instance, right created by a

626
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 3: law passed by Congress. That money is Congress said no,

627
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: you're going to spend that money on this, and then

628
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 3: the Trump administration says, no, we're not going to do that.

629
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 3: This is fundamentally ignoring the power of the Purse of Congress.

630
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 3: It goes against the Impoundment Act. So this is blatantly illegal,

631
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 3: blatantly unconstitutional. And they're like, well, will make us stop, right,

632
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 3: that's basically what they're saying, make us stop.

633
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 5: And you see this everywhere. You see it with the

634
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 5: way they are basically disappearing these migrants off the street,

635
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 5: right and grad student absolutely, yes, yes, So basically just look,

636
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 5: we're just gonna go for it. And then if Bush

637
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 5: comes to shove, let's see, let's see what the courts do.

638
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 5: And even if the if the federal courts, as they

639
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 5: have been doing, tell us to stop, let's see what

640
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court says, or maybe even go as so

641
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 5: far as to just to tell the courts we don't

642
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 5: care because we think we're just enacting the coronerunquote will

643
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 5: of the people. You see this more and more that

644
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 5: even in court, the Department of Justice has now said, look,

645
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 5: we're no longer cooperating with you in this court case

646
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 5: because we are enacting the will of the people. So again,

647
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 5: I think this is just it's just fundamentally different. It's

648
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 5: also where you see how this Trump administration. A lot

649
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 5: of people were sort of pointing to Victor Orban in Hungary,

650
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 5: right as kind of like this is probably what they're

651
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 5: gonna do, or this is the big role model. And

652
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 5: in some areas that's true. But Victor Orban he pursued

653
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 5: a strategy that you would called autocratic legalism, meaning he

654
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 5: never blatantly ignored like the Constitution. He never went fully unconstitutional,

655
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 5: fully illegal. He tried to sort of change the system

656
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 5: from within the constitutional boundaries. And the Trump is such

657
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 5: as clearly they're going like two steps further than that,

658
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 5: and so yeah, I think that is surprising to me.

659
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 5: I have to say that that is surprising to me,

660
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 5: the way they have been so all in and in

661
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 5: many ways, I think they have gone beyond Project twenty

662
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 5: twenty five, as radical as that was, I think in

663
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 5: many ways, and you know, the Musk stuff is a

664
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 5: key example here, they have been more radical than what

665
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 5: was outlined in there.

666
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: Yes, Musk has definitely been more radical than was what

667
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: was outlined in there in some ways. Orbon is just

668
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: better organized and a little smarter, right probably.

669
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

670
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: I know you're a fancy academic, so that's kind of

671
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: an unfair question for a fancy academic. But ultimately that's

672
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: kind of how we're not going to be hungry and

673
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: also bigger and we've been a democracy for longer.

674
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 5: But you know, I think what's so interesting about the

675
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 5: hungry comparison is that the assumption amongst people like me,

676
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 5: you know, people who study like I don't know democratic

677
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 5: breakdown or how offered terarian regimes managed to bring democracy

678
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 5: down and more people. I mean, I'm focusing in the

679
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 5: United States, but people who study this stuff internationally and

680
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 5: they compare and they look at Hungry, right, I think

681
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 5: they all expected. And I think this is another area

682
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 5: where this stuff is a bit surprising and in a

683
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 5: really concerning way to me, they all expected. Look, America,

684
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 5: if you look at it in international comparison, at least

685
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 5: on paper, has on paper relatively strong institutions and democratic traditions, right,

686
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 5: and so people expected a relatively high level of democratic resilience,

687
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 5: not because you know, like some exceptional democratic spirit or

688
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 5: DNA or whatever, but simply because democratic rules and institutions

689
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 5: had more time to develop in this country if you're

690
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 5: compared to Hungary, is what I mean. Right, Civil society

691
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 5: actors had a lot more resources at their disposal, and

692
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 5: so the expectation was look as difficult as it's been

693
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 5: for Victor ORBN in Hungary to bring that system down,

694
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 5: and it took him like a decade or so, Right,

695
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 5: it's going to be more difficult here. And we just

696
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 5: don't think this is a widely shared assumption amongst again

697
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 5: these scholars of international authoritarianism. They said, we just don't

698
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 5: think Trump and the Trump regime is going to be

699
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 5: cunning enough and organized enough, right and disciplined enough to

700
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 5: go up against what they expected was a higher level

701
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 5: of democratic resilience compared to like Hungary. And I think

702
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 5: the very concerning picture that has emerged over the last

703
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 5: two and a half months or however long it's been,

704
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 5: I don't even know. I'm just really tired. The really

705
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 5: concerning picture is that, no, the level of democratic resilience

706
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 5: has been like far lower than we would have hoped,

707
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 5: right because mostly because there's there's been no resistance from

708
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 5: Congress obviously, and the key civil society institutions like these

709
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 5: universities sitting onlike massive fortunes, these powerful law firms, media companies,

710
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 5: they have just not taken on the fight. They have

711
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 5: just decided that now we're going to use some strategy

712
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 5: somewhere between appeasement and open complicity. And that's really concerning.

713
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: Yes, we are a country filled with cowards. Okay, Thomas,

714
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: let's just sum this up here. You were not expecting

715
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: American billionaires to be as cowardly and craving as they were,

716
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 1: but I was because I live in New York, and

717
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: so I knew that they would just be cowardly and

718
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: craven in the hopes that it would work. But what

719
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 1: I think is super interesting is that it didn't work,

720
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: and they are as fucked as everyone else.

721
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 5: I mean, look, this old terriffing is. If it wasn't

722
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 5: so dangerous, and if there wasn't so much real harm

723
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 5: being caused by this, it would be so funny. But

724
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 5: I will say, look, you're right, no one should ever

725
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 5: have any expectations from like billionaires. But I'm not just

726
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 5: talking about billionaires. I'm talking about again, like universities right

727
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 5: where I think what is concerning to me if you

728
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 5: ask the question, if you ask people who have either

729
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 5: lived through the downfall of democracy somewhere maybe again and

730
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 5: like hungry or whatever, or you talk to people who

731
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 5: study that stuff, right, they will tell you the way

732
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 5: you defend democracy if it is under assault from an

733
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 5: autocratic movement, which that's where we are, right, I hope

734
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 5: everyone's clear about that. Right, So we have an authoritarian

735
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 5: the leader of an authoritarian movement is now in power, right,

736
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 5: he's the president, and their goal is to turn this thing.

737
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 5: Their goal is regime change. They want to turn this

738
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 5: thing into some kind of plebiscitarian autocracy. Right, that's clearly

739
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 5: the goal. That's what they're going for. Okay, Now, how

740
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 5: do you push back against that? How do you make

741
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 5: that not happen? And I think everyone would tell you, well,

742
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 5: it is all about quick, decisive and collective action from

743
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 5: all the institutions that have the resources to push back, right,

744
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 5: because it's never going to be easier than today to

745
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 5: push back tomorrow. It's already going to be harder. The

746
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 5: window is closing, right. The more time you give them,

747
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 5: the more difficult it gets. And instead what we are

748
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 5: seeing is all these like universities, everyone for themselves, no

749
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 5: collective action, all coming together, finding like a common response,

750
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 5: and instead they're all just you know, like thinking they

751
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 5: can appease the Trump administration when clearly what's going on

752
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 5: this is all just dominance tests. Right. These are not

753
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 5: like good faith invitations to like find common ground or

754
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 5: fight anti Semitism or whatever they're talking about. These are

755
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 5: all dominance tests, right, and you cannot react to that

756
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 5: by appeasing them. They will only invite furthersus dominance tests. Right,

757
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 5: You have to push back, and that we've seen just

758
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 5: not nearly enough of that, even from again institutions who

759
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 5: are sitting on massive fortunes and should have, at least

760
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 5: on paper their resources to say, you know what, no,

761
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 5: we're not going to go along with this, We're going

762
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 5: to push back a little bit.

763
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: Yes, it is true, and it is also true that

764
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: university is you haveans. A lot of these universities have

765
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: billions of dollars, and I understand that a lot of

766
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: these college presidents worry that they serve at the pleasure

767
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: of their donors. That's right, but I'm telling you you

768
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: serve at the pleasure of American democracy, and when it's gone,

769
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: you're all going to feel real bad. But I do

770
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: think I think it's true, and I also think I

771
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: want you to talk about these protests this weekend and

772
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: what a big deal they were, because I think they

773
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: were a big deal and I think they show a

774
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: real shift.

775
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I one hundred percent degree. I mean, I

776
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 5: will tell you that every single interview I've done with

777
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 5: international media, and I do a lot of those because

778
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 5: I'm German, so you know, the German media will talk

779
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 5: to me every single one, every single time I've been

780
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 5: asked the question, where are the protests, where's the mobilization,

781
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 5: Why are they not protests? And so I think there

782
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 5: was this perception internationally, certainly that maybe Americans are just

783
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 5: too lazy, or maybe they are actually on board with Trump, right,

784
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 5: and maybe Trump is right when he says that he

785
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 5: had the people behind them and all that stuff. And

786
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 5: I think we can now finally conclusively say no, look,

787
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 5: that's just not true, right on these protests. And the

788
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 5: first thing that makes these protests so important is they

789
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 5: prove that the trump Ist regime's main justification for what

790
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 5: they are doing, for their authoritarian assertion of power, that

791
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 5: he has a mandate, that he's enacting the quote unquote

792
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 5: will of the people, that his agenda represents a broad consensus.

793
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 5: It's just not true, right, and we must not perpetuate

794
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 5: that and kind of support that. And I think these

795
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 5: protests were a clear sign, look, no, clearly he doesn't

796
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 5: have the will of the people behind him. Obviously, America

797
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 5: is a deeply, deeply divided society. I'm not saying everyone

798
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 5: is against him, but this was a clear sign. And

799
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 5: I also think they's protests are also an urgent call

800
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 5: to precisely the leaders of these institutions that we just

801
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 5: talked about, right, these I don't know, university leaders, but

802
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 5: also our elected officials, the democratic leadership, democratic elected officials,

803
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 5: to tell them, look, you know, there's so much anger,

804
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 5: there's so much frustration. We don't want it. Can you

805
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 5: please do something about this? We are expecting you to

806
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 5: do something about this. And this is so important because

807
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 5: I mean, clearly the Democratic Party has been kind of

808
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 5: divided between those who do want to push back and

809
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 5: fight and those who think maybe politics as usual is

810
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 5: still an option and maybe we should just wait for

811
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 5: the midterm elections or whatever. And I think this is

812
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 5: again so important because it should tell democratic leadership, It

813
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 5: should tell these institutions, the civil society institutions, no, look,

814
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 5: the people want us to fight. Maybe we should do something.

815
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is the thing, it's people want their

816
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: electeds to fight. We don't care if it's left or center,

817
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: left or center. They want their leaders to fight for

818
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: them and to protect them. And I think we're going

819
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: to see.

820
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 5: More of that.

821
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 1: Thomas Zimmer.

822
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 5: I hope you'll come back anytime. It's always a pleasure

823
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 5: to talk to you, even if again I feel very

824
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 5: tired and very frustrated and also terrified. But it is

825
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 5: always a pleasure to at least get a chance to

826
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 5: talk with you about all this kind of stuff. Thank you, No.

827
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: Moment, Thickly Jesse Cannon.

828
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 2: So why Elon runs the States bribes people for votes?

829
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: And since Greenland a very tiny place fifty five thousand people,

830
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: less than the size of most New York neighborhoods and population,

831
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 2: Greenland does not want to be annexed by US, so

832
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: what is Trump considering giving them ten thousand dollars to

833
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 2: each person to be able to do it? Yeah?

834
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: I don't get this at all. I don't know why

835
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 1: they want Greenland. I don't know what we're doing here.

836
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Honestly,

837
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 1: it's just ridiculous. And that is our moment of houckery.

838
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

839
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

840
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

841
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

842
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.