1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: If you will place your left hand on the Bible 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me, 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: I do solemnly swear. Then titled action find the defendant 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: guilty of the crime. It makes no sense, it doesn't fit. 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: If it doesn't fit, you must equit. We all took 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: the same oath of office. We're all bound by that 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, to bear 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: true faith and allegiance to the saying that you faithfully 9 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: discharge the duties of our office. Do you solemnly swear 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: or affirm that the testimony you are about to give 11 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio, this 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: is Sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. One of the 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: first studies that we did where we planted an entirely 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: false memory is if I were talking to you, I 16 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: would say, Philip, I've talked to your mother, and your 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: mother told me some things that happened to you when 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: you were about six years old. I want to see 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: what you can remember about these childhood experiences. If you 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: don't remember, just tell me you don't, and then I 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: present you with three true memories things your mother really 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: told me did happen to you. And then this completely 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: made up experience about being lost in a shopping mall 24 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: and frightened, crying, ultimately rescued by an elderly person, and 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: reunited with the family. With a few suggestive interviews, we 26 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: got our research subjects about a quarter of them to 27 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: remember all are part of this completely made up experience. 28 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: And after we published that study, other investigators came along 29 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: and planned even more bison or and unusual false memories. 30 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,279 Speaker 1: That you were attacked by an animal, that you nearly 31 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: drowned and had to be rescued by a lifeguard. That 32 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: you committed a crime as a teenager that was serious 33 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: enough that the police actually came. So these are some 34 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: of the things that people have been led to believe 35 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: even though they never actually happened. That was Dr Elizabeth Loftus, 36 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: a psychology professor at the University of California, Irvine. You 37 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: might remember her from our first episode on eyewitness testimony 38 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: and the Malleability of Memory. In this episode, we spoke 39 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: to her about implanted memories and the ways in which 40 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: police interrogations and interviews could cause a false confession, false 41 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: confessions are real, and they are a big problem in 42 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: the legal system. And I know a lot of people 43 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: can't imagine ever confessing to a crime they did not commit. 44 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 1: But it happens, and as we'll in this episode, there 45 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: are a lot of reasons for that, from questioning techniques 46 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: to problems with human memory that can cause someone to 47 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: admit to or to even fully remember something that they 48 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: did not do. Well. These false memories, they can be 49 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: very detailed and specific, and people will start to add 50 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: details and the color of clothing that people were wearing 51 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: or where location was. It really looks and feels like 52 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: a real recollection. Other times, what they develop is a 53 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: false belief. I'm pretty sure this happened, but I just 54 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: don't really have a strong memory of it happening. Both 55 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: of these things are possible. This is a study published 56 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: just a few years ago out of Canada. With the 57 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: power of suggestion. They convinced ordinary people that as a 58 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: teenager they committed a crime, and the police actually came 59 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: to investigate. These people are trying to figure this out, 60 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: and you know, if my mother told you this, it 61 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: must have happened. Did I plan for Fiti somewhere? And 62 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: what was I with my best friend when we did, 63 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: and they pretty much talked themselves into constructing something that 64 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: never happened. After the experiment is over, we tell them 65 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: what the experiment was all about, we might apologize for 66 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: using any deception with them, so presumably they don't continue 67 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 1: for ten years believing they really did it. I wanted 68 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: to ask Dr lawsus about how drugs and alcohol might 69 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: play a role in an implanted memory. Before an interrogation, 70 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: suspects are often asked whether or not they've taken mind 71 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: altering substances like drugs or alcohol in order to prevent 72 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: a false confection. But I know and fans of Up 73 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: and Vanished might know of at least one case here 74 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: in Georgia where this has allegedly come into play. Ryan Duke, 75 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: the defendant in the murder case involving Tera Grinstead, claims 76 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: that he was under the influence of morphine while making 77 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: incriminating statements to the police. Oh, that's that's certainly possible. 78 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: Especially if he were under the influence of alcohol. His 79 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: memory would be somewhat weak compared to begin with. It's 80 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: even easier to plant something in somebody's mind when the 81 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: memory is weak. To begin with either week to begin 82 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: with or week because the passage of time is weakened it. 83 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: There is a very famous case of the Paul Ingram case. 84 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: He was civilian with the Sheriff's Department in the state 85 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: of Washington. His daughter accuses him of involving her in 86 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: satanic ritual abuse, and he starts getting interrogated and he 87 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: thinks to himself, you know, my daughter wouldn't really like 88 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: maybe I did it. Maybe I blacked out or something, 89 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: and maybe I did it, and he actually confessed. He 90 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: would come to realize that this confession and been kind 91 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: of coerced and take it back. But you could see 92 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: how it happened in that case. He just thought maybe 93 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: I did it, because why would she lie? Well, there 94 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: were a number of reasons why she might have told 95 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: a false story. There are a lot of things that 96 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: go on in a false confession besides faulty memory, and 97 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: there are confession experts who testify frequently in cases where 98 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: the defense is alleged a coerced and false confession. A 99 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: bigger problem in getting people to falsely confess is they 100 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: get persuaded that they're better off if they confess to 101 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: this little thing and they're gonna be really screwed if 102 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: they don't. So if you'll just admit that you accidentally 103 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: shook the baby, you'll be able to go home see 104 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: your kids. You'll be fine. But if you don't, we're 105 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: gonna think you did it on purpose, and you're never 106 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: gonna go home and see your kids again. So there 107 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: are your choices, and people will confess to accidentally shaking 108 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: my baby when they don't really believe they did it. 109 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: Three of the wrongfully convicted men we spoke to earlier 110 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: this season, Joe Diaz, William Dillon, and Bill Richards, all 111 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: had this experience of police telling them that they would 112 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: have an easier time if they just confessed to the crime, 113 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: all of these being crimes that they did not commit. 114 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: They also had the shared experience of being questioned by 115 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: the police for hours and hours on end. They took 116 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: me down to the police station, interrogating me for a 117 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: few hours, wanting to know where I was on certain days, 118 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: and if I knew of a certain school and a 119 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: certain part of town, and I didn't. But nevertheless, they 120 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: interrogating me for a long time. They wouldn't tell me 121 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: why they were interrogating it it's been so long, Why 122 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: don't recall they've read me my rights? But you know, 123 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: I spoke to them. Biggest mistake I ever made in 124 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: my life. But again, I was a twenty year old 125 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: ignorant individual, had nothing to hide, so I was willing 126 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: to talk to them because I hadn't done anything wrong. 127 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: So they take me and put me in a room 128 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: with a bunch of police officers. It's not like the 129 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: television where they put you in a room and there's 130 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: two guys come in and talk to you. And this 131 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: is like five, six of them. They were all different places, 132 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: and they're all talking to me at once about different things, 133 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: asking me questions about the murder or something, trying to 134 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: ask me about this and what am I doing over here? 135 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: And I kept admiralbly denying any involvement. And I didn't 136 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: know any answers. I wasn't involved. Eventually, they had gotten 137 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: tired and they were ranting, and Raven and I kept 138 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: putting up the same thing, and finally I said, Okay, 139 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: we'll offer you five years manslaughter. Don't worry about it. 140 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 1: You'll do two years and you'll be on your own. 141 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: You'll beat free. I said, I'm not taking any deals. 142 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: I didn't have anything to do with it. I'm not 143 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: taking no kind of deals. Finally said, okay, we're gonna 144 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: put you in an electric chair. You're going to be 145 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: arrested for first degree murder, felony murder. I said, you 146 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: got the wrong guy. I found my wife at midnight, 147 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: so I've been up since about seven that morning, and 148 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: they let me go five or six and next afternoon, 149 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: so I've been up thirty some hours without sleep, probably 150 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: twenty some hours without food, and under intense interrogation, you know, 151 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: trying to get me to confess. I came down again 152 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: trying to help them. I thought they would actually start 153 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: looking for the real killer, which of course was my 154 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: mistake because they didn't. So I was actually in the 155 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: police station for another fifteen hours of intense interrogation, which 156 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: is not what I came down therefore, and they just 157 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: finally said, well, if you want to admit you did it, 158 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: you're under arrest. I always thought, okay, what if I 159 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: did admit it, I've been at all. It was such 160 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 1: a stupid thing to say. That's why you get so 161 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: many false confessions. I can tell you have been through 162 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: these things. I could see why people just give up 163 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: the crap of the same thing lots only alng there's 164 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: an edit tape that they claimed this was the interrogation was. 165 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: Of course, there's over thirty hours interrogation. They have a 166 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: two hour tape. But even on that I hear myself 167 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: giving them things that I didn't want to say because 168 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: I didn't remember or didn't think they were true. But 169 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: I surely never said I did anything wrong. These practices, 170 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: as Dr Loftus has said, are a big reason that 171 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: people will admit to things that they did not do. 172 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: We spoke with an interrogation expert to hear more about 173 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: how interrogation techniques work and how they might elicit these 174 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: false confessions. This Brian Leslie that the purpose of an 175 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: expert suching myself, is to first of all educate the 176 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: court or the jury of all the facts and what 177 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: they're looking at. When I go into court, I have 178 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: no stake either way. What I do is I look 179 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 1: at what I've been told to look at. I give 180 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: my expert opinions based on that. I'm not the trier 181 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: of fact. The trier of fact, whether it's a jury 182 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: or judge, will determine what weight to carry into my 183 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:36,479 Speaker 1: testimony as an extent. I'm a forensic course of interrogation 184 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: expert in both interrogations and interviews. I've got a police background, 185 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: law enforcement for fifteen years, chiefs two years. Most of 186 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: what I deal with is homicide, sex abuse cases, terrorist cases. 187 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: I asked Brian to explain the difference between a police 188 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: interview and a police interrogation. One of the most important 189 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: things about an interrogation, which most people missed that point, 190 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: is the presumption of guilt, which is a requirement to 191 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: go into the interrogation. To establish the presumption of guilt, 192 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: investigators or the interviewer prior to doing an interrogation would 193 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: have had to have at least proven the case to 194 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: a point where there's sufficient evidence to enter into an interrogation. 195 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: The difference between an interview and an interrogation just so 196 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: very clear. An interview is to fact find. An interrogation 197 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: is to solicit confession. So you would use an interview 198 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: for the purposes of witnesses victims. You would speak to 199 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: individual to basically corroborate physical evidence, any other direct evidence 200 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: you might have, and based on that then you would 201 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: then decide, Okay, here's the most likely suspect based on 202 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: the evidence I have, you would target that suspect. You 203 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: would then take that suspect either invite him in to 204 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: have an interview, which you'd start off with an interview 205 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: and then end up with an interrogation. Prior to going 206 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: into an interrogation, you should have already completed your investigation, 207 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: have been satisfied that the presumption of guilt was there, 208 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: and that's why you're bringing the individual in for an interrogation. 209 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: Need mirandize the individual. Then you would conduct the interrogation, 210 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: and the interrogation has done in a controlled environment versus 211 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: what an interview would be done, not necessarily in a 212 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: controlled environment. Standard training and an interrogation is to get 213 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: in the individual's personal space, so you would bring the 214 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: chair's face to faith. You wouldn't be writing anything down. 215 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: You'd be facing the individual at that particular point, and 216 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: you would be then asking questions that are more getting 217 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: to the point of what you already know is the 218 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: answers you've already had the evidence. I also asked Brian 219 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: about some of the techniques officers use in order to 220 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: get that confession. There's a huge difference between coercive questioning 221 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: and miscond. The two are not necessarily the same in 222 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: patterns of course of interrogation may force an individual to confess. 223 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: For example, in an interrogation room, worseisness may end up 224 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: in what's known as minimization, when somebody minimizes the culpability 225 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: of an effect. In other words, murders way up here. 226 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: What you did is just way down here, but in 227 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: fact it may just be right under murder. This type 228 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: of comment or this type of narrative will be created 229 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: by the interrogator, and eventually the individual will start believing 230 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: that there's nothing to worry about. Maybe I'm not going 231 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: to be charged with anything. And then eventually the individual 232 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: may tap into what's known as vulnerabilities. For example, if 233 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: you were a drug user or you're an alcoholic, they 234 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: may start tapping into having a conversation at the beginning 235 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: where you're building the rapport with the suspect, and you'll 236 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: start talking to about the parties they went to and 237 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: how many times did they passed out, and eventually that 238 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: will start being used against them. What may be suggested 239 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: is that after this person has told them that they've 240 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: passed out many times, they may suggest that this is 241 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: what happened in this case that you just don't remember 242 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: because you probably passed out and that's probably what happened. 243 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: And eventually, after a period of putting that two of them, 244 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: the individual may be suggectively agreeing with that type of 245 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: the narrative. There's a fairly lower threshold for an arrest 246 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: versus whether or not a person with confess in an 247 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: interrogation room on a couple of reasons. For example, if 248 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: it's a lengthy interrogation, that could be a reason, whether 249 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: he was tired, where there was sleep deprivation, whether he 250 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: had been denied food. These types of situations can provoke 251 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: a no hope situation where he's constantly every time he 252 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: tells the truth, he's being told, well, no, that's a lie. 253 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: We have information and we have witnesses that so you 254 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: do certain things which potentially are lies to begin with 255 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: with the minimization as well as tapping into his vulnerability. 256 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: He may then just confess thinking that it's not that 257 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: big of a deal. I'll take whatever I can because 258 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: they've maximized the penalties. Where they tell the story about 259 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: somebody who they just interrogated a week and a half ago, 260 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: got fifty five years because he wasn't being honest. So 261 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: the individual in the interrogation room. They then decide, well, 262 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: I better than give him what he wants and I'll 263 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: get a smaller offense, or I'll get a smaller offenses. 264 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: Here's Attorney Ashley Merchant, who you also heard in the 265 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: last episode. Not only is ash a colleague of mine, 266 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: she's also Ryan Duke's lead defense attorney. Actually has educated 267 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: herself quite a bit about false confessions in order to 268 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: present Ryan Duke's defense. I think what normally happens is 269 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: the truth life somewhere in the middle, and I've always 270 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: thought that, I've just not always put it in the 271 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: context of a false confession. Some of the statistics that 272 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: I found are just very disturbing. One out of four 273 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: people wrongfully convicted that are later exonerated by DNA made 274 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: a false confession or an incriminating statement. That's a huge number. 275 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: The more I looked at it, the more I found 276 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: how often this stuff happens. It's been something that has 277 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: sort of evolved for me to come to the acceptance 278 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: that false confessions happen, and I can even say as 279 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,719 Speaker 1: a lawyer it was hard for me to accept that, 280 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: and I had to really study it and really look 281 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: at the statistics, because you just think, why would someone 282 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: ever tell the police they did something they didn't do. 283 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: I mean, that's just against human nature. Now I'm convinced 284 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: that it happens at an alarming regularity. To me, I 285 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: had to kind of try and conceptualize how it could 286 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: play into my own life. How many people tell their 287 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: doctor when they think the doctor wants to hear I 288 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: was going to the doctor, and you know, I was like, Okay, well, 289 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: maybe I haven't been so good about what I'm eating 290 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, but you want to tell your 291 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: doctor the truth. If the doctor told you need to 292 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: lose ten pounds and you go back and you haven't 293 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: lost ten pounds, You're like, oh, I've been trying, I've 294 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: been trying. You haven't been trying, but you think your 295 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: doctor wants to hear that. And then you have to 296 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: think about the position that criminal defendants are in, and 297 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: you have to think about the power struggle between law enforcement. 298 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: I think about my kids, and I think about how 299 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: they are raised to think that law enforcement are the 300 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: good guys. I think that a lot of people grow 301 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: up with that they want to please law enforcement, They 302 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: want to tell them what they want to hear. They 303 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: psychologically break down when they're asked the same thing over 304 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: and over and over again, because clearly they're not giving 305 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: the right answer, or else, why is someone asking me 306 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: the same thing twelve times? If you ask me how 307 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: I feel, and I see I feel fine, and then 308 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: you ask me again, you asked me again. First of all, 309 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: I want you to stop asking me, because it's annoying 310 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: at that point. But second of all, psychologically, I'm convinced 311 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: that I must be giving the wrong answer because why 312 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: are you repeatedly asking me this? A lot of times 313 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: criminal defendants are exhausted during these interviews. They're very lengthy. 314 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 1: You can really talk to somebody about something that's uncomfortable, 315 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: I think for maybe forty five minutes or an hour, 316 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: and then after that, I mean, I know, for me personally, 317 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: it's almost like you gotta you gotta move on to 318 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: something else. Sometimes people are taking medicines that could affect that. 319 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: You've got a lot of people that when the police 320 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: are interrogating you, they may not care about the end result. 321 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: They may just want to get out of that room 322 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: because they don't really care what happens to them. They're 323 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: almost like martyrs. There's so many different things that can 324 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: happen that can lead to these false confessions. It's just 325 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: really scary to me. A lot of times, it's not 326 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: that the police just pick some random person off the 327 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: street that has no connection to anything and they get 328 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: them to false lead to confess to something. I don't 329 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: know that that happens as often as someone may have 330 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: had some involvement and they're interrogated. I think that we 331 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: get the truth very perverted during the types of questioning, 332 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 1: and there's certain types of questioning that police are encouraged 333 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: to do that I think leads to more false confessions. 334 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,239 Speaker 1: Citizens don't realize that police are encouraged, you know, not 335 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: only allowed, but encouraged to lie to suspects. So they 336 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: believe that when a police officer tells them something and 337 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: ask them something, that that's truthful. There's a lot of 338 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: times things that happened prior to the audio going on. 339 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: I mean, we see like recorded confessions now, but there's 340 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: a lot of times interaction prior to that. A lot 341 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: of the you know, almost grooming I would call it, 342 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: that happens before the false confession. This camaraderie that's built 343 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: happens before videos ever on. I asked actually to tell 344 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: us what types of cases she sees these false confessions 345 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: in most frequently, most of the time that I see 346 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: these interrogations where the police are using these heavy handed techniques, 347 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 1: it's in the cases that are really circumstantial, really um 348 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: a stretch, and they're using that to shore up their 349 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: case and they need the confession. It's the cases that 350 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: they need the confession because they don't have enough otherwise. 351 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: Those are the ones that they look for the confession 352 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: and they use all these techniques. That's really where we 353 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: see it. What happens is the police go to interrogation 354 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: one on one, they take the class, they're taught how 355 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: to do it. They're not taught about false confessions. That 356 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: war does not come up in their training. They have 357 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: an interrogation technique that they were taught by the academy. 358 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: They follow that like it's the bible. That technique actually 359 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: can lead to false confessions. For their technique, their interrogation 360 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: technique to work. They want a confession. I mean, that's 361 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: the goal. The goal isn't to get an accurate confession. 362 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: It's to get a confession, and so their goal is 363 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: not to get necessarily the truth, even though they'd say 364 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: it was to get the truth. It's to close the case. 365 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a reason they're reading you, Miranda rights 366 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: and saying it's going to be used against you. They 367 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: want something to use against you. They want to make 368 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: sure they've got the right person. And I think police 369 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: officers innately do want to get the right person. I 370 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: think they want to believe they've got the right person. 371 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: I think the problem is that to do that and 372 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: to sleep at night, they have to just sort of 373 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: have blinders onto these false confessions, because they wouldn't be 374 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: able to do their job if they if they doubted 375 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: every confession they had. I asked actually to detail some 376 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: of the interrogation techniques she's learned about during her research 377 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: into false confessions. One of those techniques is called the 378 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: read technique. The read technique is it's where the officer 379 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: tries to establish rapport with the suspect. It's where they're 380 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: trying to give them some hope of benefit, and it's 381 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: kind of like playing mind game one. I'm almost the 382 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: hope of benefit could be something minor. I mean, it 383 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: could be giving them a pizza, could be giving them 384 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: something to drink. It could be telling them I know 385 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 1: you're really sorry, giving them feedback, positive feedback that the 386 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: more they're telling you, the better it is for them. 387 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: False promises, you know, promises like I'll put in a 388 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: good word for you, or I'll make sure that you 389 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: can hug your mom before you go away, or whatever. 390 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: You know, just little promises to build a rapport. In 391 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: particularly vulnerable populations, it works, and even a non vulnerable 392 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: person after so many hours. They tend to believe that 393 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: they use religion a lot of times, that God wants 394 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: them to confess their sins and that they'll be absolved 395 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: and they'll pray with them and things like that. These 396 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: are all psychological tricks. I mean, the officer is not 397 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: your friend. They're not praying with you because they care 398 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: about you. They're doing this because it elicits a response, 399 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: and they want that response. They want that information. So 400 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: other things that they do is they'll offer like tidbits 401 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: of evidence, whether it's true or not, so that the 402 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: suspects think that the police know more than they do. 403 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: One thing that we look for is we sort of 404 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: take out the different statements that the defendant gives. Did 405 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: the defendant offer that evidence up or did the police 406 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: officer offer that evidence up? Because it's more likely to 407 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: be factually truthful if the defendant offered it without being prompted. 408 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: There aren't hard and fast rules. You're not supposed to 409 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: like break bones, but I've had broken bones in the 410 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: interrogation room. The judge has to make a determination if 411 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: a confession can commit. We call it Jackson Denno hearings. 412 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: That is the United States Supreme Court case law that 413 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: says the interrogation has to meet certain standards to be 414 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: in front of a jury, and then the next is 415 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: the jury's determination. So what we always say is it 416 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,719 Speaker 1: goes to the weight, not the admissibility. So what that 417 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: means is the judge is going to let it in, 418 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: but then it's up to the jury how much weight 419 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: they can if they believe it or not. Actually had 420 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: some incredible stories about problematic interrogations and confessions, some of 421 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: which I wasn't familiar with. I make it my business 422 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: to keep up to speed with the way things work 423 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: in the legal system nationwide. But these aren't the sorts 424 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: of things that you learn about in law schools. So 425 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: defense attorneys have to go out of their way to 426 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: educate themselves on specific issues and techniques whenever it applies 427 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: to any of their cases or their clients. There's been 428 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: a couple of cases that I just want to point 429 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: out that have been crazy about these confessions. There was 430 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: one out of Louisiana maybe two years ago, the lawyer 431 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: dog case. It was just comical. The defendant invokes his 432 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: right to counsel and they said, you know, we're gonna 433 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: interrogate you. Here's your Miranda rights. Do you want a lawyer? 434 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: And he said, I want a lawyer dog. The court 435 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: interpreted that as him not requesting a lawyer, but requesting 436 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: a dog, a lawyer dog. So they said he did 437 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: not invoke his right to counsel because it was all 438 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: about the common was it, I want a lawyer comma, 439 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,719 Speaker 1: I am calling you dog, And they were like, if 440 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: he had said a lawyer pig, then that would have 441 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: been you know, I'm like, that is insane because certain people, 442 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: I mean, they used dog just when every day slaying. 443 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: So he had said I want a lawyer dog, and 444 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: they were saying, well, there's no comma. He wanted a 445 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: lawyer dog. With quotes around lawyer dog. It was insane. 446 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: They did not give him a lawyer no, and he confessed, 447 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: and the statement came in because they were saying he 448 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: did not clearly invoke his right to counsel. The police 449 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: could have thought he wanted a lawyer dog. When I 450 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: read it, I was like, you know, I'm a lawyer. 451 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: These people are lawyers. Were smart. It's one of those 452 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,959 Speaker 1: things when someone's telling you something and it's so unbelievable 453 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: to your face, You're like, you're just lying to me. 454 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: It's just painful. I had a client who gave a confession, 455 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: so he and the mother of his child were both 456 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: being charged with the crime. The state government took the 457 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: child away. Basically, they were telling him Mom can only 458 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: get the child back if you confess, and he was like, 459 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: I wanted mom to get the child back because he 460 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: was making a sacrifice, saying that he would rather go 461 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: to jail and mom be able to have the child 462 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: than the child being state customed. I would make that choice, 463 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: you know, I would probably falsely confessed to something if 464 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: it's going to save my children. So as soon as 465 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: the officer left the room, he knew where the camera was. 466 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: He went up on the camera and he said, I 467 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: just lied. I falsely confessed. I didn't do what they're 468 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: accusing me of. I did this so that mom could 469 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: get the child back. And so we go to court 470 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: and the state moves to admit the confession and to 471 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: keep out the self serving statements, and the law requires it, 472 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: so they split it up so the jury was able 473 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: to see right up until the police left the room, 474 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: but the part where he said I lied and this 475 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: is why I lied. They're not allowed to hear so 476 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: anytime someone says something, it's hearsay, and the law says 477 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 1: that hearsay can come in if it meets certain requirements, 478 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: and one of those is that it's reliable. One of 479 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: the things that the court has said renders it reliable 480 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: is if it's a against your interest, because the law 481 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: just inherently believes that you're only gonna lie to protect yourself. 482 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: So if you're saying something that harms you that's that's 483 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: against your interest, then that must be true. But if 484 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,719 Speaker 1: you said something that is self serving that assists to you, 485 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: like I didn't do it, that then is hearsaying and 486 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: it's not reliable. What normally I do as I say, 487 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: tell me what happened, and so they'll tell me what happened, 488 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: and then I'll compare that and almost cross examine them 489 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: and say, well, you know, you told the police this. 490 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 1: So you just told me that this happened. But you 491 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: told the police that happened. Why why did you tell 492 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: the police that? Because that plays into the factors you 493 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: know whether or not it is a false confession. And 494 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: I also want to know are they lying to me 495 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: or are they lying to the police. Unfortunately, it's not 496 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: unheard of that defense lawyers get lied to. But part 497 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: of what I do to see through it is I 498 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: ask them in an appropriate way about the discrepancies. And 499 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: unlike the police, I'm not interrogating them, I'm asking them 500 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: to explain for me. I'm interviewing them as a witness 501 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: and a client, and I'm not trying to put words 502 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: in their mouth. I'm not trying to suggest answers. I'm 503 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: not repeatedly asking them the same question. But I will 504 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: compare and say, you know, but you told the police 505 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: that you were having an affair with this person, and 506 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: you're telling me you weren't. Which one is the truth 507 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: and why? And I'll let them explain it, and then 508 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: that will lead me to my defense and how we 509 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: can show that it was a false confession. And then 510 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: a lot of times I'll ask them, what really did happen? 511 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: You lied? And then we try and go and prove 512 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: what it is that they said. What things can we 513 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: pull out that support the actual true story, not the 514 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: false confession, not the version they told the police. When 515 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: I get brought into a criminal case, one of the 516 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: first things that I want to know is what my 517 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: client may have said to the police and what the 518 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: police may have said to them. We should require the 519 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: state to actually prove charges. I know the law in 520 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: Georgia says that a confessional loan is not enough to 521 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: sustain a conviction, but that's for a jury to determine 522 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter. Is as jurors, when they 523 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: hear a confession, they just automatically assume guilt and assume 524 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: that whatever is said is true. We as citizens have 525 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: to question that. But then beyond that, we also have 526 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: to push for legislation, legislation that police aren't able to 527 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: use these types of techniques on vulnerable populations. Maybe have 528 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: legislation or policy changes that say, anybody who suffers from 529 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: mental illness, anybody who is has some type of a disorder, 530 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: educational disorder, children, people who are particularly vulnerable, those vulnerable populations, 531 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: they should not be subject to the read technique because 532 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: it's more likely to induce a false confession. All police 533 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: interactions should be recorded. I think it's very important that 534 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: pre interview, even if it's just to establish rapport, they 535 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: don't usually record those. Anytime you have an interaction with 536 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: the police, it should be recorded. I mean, I would 537 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: want that for my own protection. So I think that 538 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: we need to advocate for laws that require these heepings. 539 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: As we discussed in the last episode, the general rule 540 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: is that it is never in your best interests to 541 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,239 Speaker 1: speak with police. Joe William and Bill All told us 542 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: that speaking with police was one of their biggest regrets. 543 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: For the most part, even if you're innocent, merely speaking 544 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: to the police can connect you to a crime that 545 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: you did not commit. A criminal lawyer properly doing their 546 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: job will rarely have their clients speak with police. This 547 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: is something that's done in court with judges and juries. 548 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: The thing to keep in mind is that law enforcement 549 00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: are allowed and in some circumstances encouraged to lie in 550 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: the interrogation process. They can withhold information, they can make 551 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: up completely new facts. They can tell suspects that they 552 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: have more information than they actually do, and this, as 553 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: they are trained, is a helpful tool in the interrogation process. 554 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 1: It can also result in confusion and false confessions. And 555 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: like Ashley said, police can sometimes be an intimidating authority figure. 556 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: We naturally will want to say and do things for 557 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: them that elicit a perceived positive result from them so 558 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: that we can get them on our side. But that 559 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: dynamic is established merely as a technique to elicit a confession. 560 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: And while we in the criminal justice system hope that 561 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: that confession will be true and accurate, that's not always 562 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: the case. The last thing I want to touch on 563 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: before we move on our Miranda rights. You all know 564 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: that you have the right to remain silent. Bit. We've 565 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: seen it movies, we see it on TV shows, we 566 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: see police reading suspects that speech all the time. In 567 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: order for Miranda warnings to apply, two things must exist. First, 568 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: the person must be in custody and secondly, it has 569 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: to be an interrogation. Both of those things custody and 570 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: interrogation must be present before Miranda warnings are required. Whether 571 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: or not someone is in custody is sometimes a subjective determination. 572 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: Just because someone is not free to leave doesn't necessarily 573 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: mean they are legally in custody. And similarly, it's a 574 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: subjective question about whether or not someone is being interrogated. 575 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: Merely speaking with someone is not necessarily interrogating them under 576 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: the law. As Brian mentioned, an interview can turn into 577 00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: an interrogation without a distinct change. Custody is also a 578 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: subjective term. Sometimes a suspect may feel like they aren't 579 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: able to leave a police station without technically being in custody. 580 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,720 Speaker 1: In that case, police don't necessarily need to read you 581 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: your Miranda warnings or to remind you, for example, that 582 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: you have a right to remain silent. But it is 583 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: important to remember you always have the right to remain silent, 584 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: no matter whether you're in custody or not, whether you're 585 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: under arrest or not, or whether or not you're being interrogated. 586 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: You have the right to remain silent. It's also true 587 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: that police don't automatically have to read someone there Miranda 588 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: warnings when they're arrested. I think in the overwhelming majority 589 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: of arrest that take place in America, Miranda warnings are 590 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 1: not read. And that's perfectly fine, and it's perfectly legal. 591 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: An arrest can occur without Miranda warnings being given, and 592 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: it does not invalidate the arrest. That's a very common 593 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: misc conception. It merely means that any custodial statements that 594 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: were a product of an interrogation cannot be used in court. 595 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: As always, we want to hear from you. You can 596 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail about this or any of our 597 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,959 Speaker 1: topics were discussing this season by calling four zero four 598 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: four one zero zero four four one. That's four zero 599 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: four four zero zero four four one next time on 600 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: sworn A friend of mine, Jennifer Thompson, she nationally known. 601 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: She's written a book. She was a survivor who was 602 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: attacked and picked the wrong guy, and now she has 603 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: started her own foundation, healing Justice. The circles that she 604 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,959 Speaker 1: holds revolved around restorative justice. And believe me, I've spent 605 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: I don't know how much money on therapist, but it 606 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: wasn't until I sat in a restorative justice circle and 607 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: I saw the magic in it. Because I could now 608 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: sit in a circle in the air as they call it, 609 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: with other exonorees who have been to what I've been through, 610 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: and we sat there and we shed tears for a 611 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: whole weekend. I walked away a million pounds. Lighter Sworn 612 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio. 613 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 1: Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne 614 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and 615 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,760 Speaker 1: Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway. 616 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:38,240 Speaker 1: Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie 617 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: Albright and Halle Beadall Original music and sound designed by 618 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Blood in 619 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: the Water by Layup. Show art and design is by 620 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: Trevor Eisler, editing by Christina Dana, mixing and mastering by 621 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team 622 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: at I Heart Radio from U t a or In 623 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:07,479 Speaker 1: Rosenbound and Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew Papa from 624 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: the Nord Group, back Media and Marketing and Station sixteen. 625 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: I'd also like to extend a very personal and special 626 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: thanks to all of our contributors and guests who have 627 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: helped to make all of these episodes possible. You can 628 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Sworn podcast 629 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: and follow me your host, Philip Holloway on Twitter at 630 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: phil Holloway e s Q. Our website is sworn podcast 631 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,399 Speaker 1: dot com, and you can check out other Tenderfoot TV 632 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: podcasts at www dot tenderfoot dot tv. If you have 633 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,879 Speaker 1: questions or comments, you can email us at Sworn at 634 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: tenderfoot dot tv or leave us a voicemail at four 635 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: zero four for one zero zero four four one. As always, 636 00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: thanks for listening