WEBVTT - Start Believin’ w/ Ryan Murphy (pt1) 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:04.320 And that's what you really missed with Jenna and Kevin 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:14.440 and I Heart radio podcast. We're back here. We are welcome. Oh, 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:18.840 welcome to and that's what you really missed. You be 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:23.080 rated us. You reached us on every social media platform. 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.759 You would not leave us alone. No, and we tried 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:32.680 to ignore it. It worked. Whatever you did worked. Thanks 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.440 for Thanks for coming back, Thanks for making us come back. 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:39.560 We're here with you, and we are we are excited 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:46.479 to revisit this with new eyes. Yeah. I think two 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:50.000 Eyes are very different from even two years ago. Yes, 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:51.920 and so it's nice to pick this back up. And 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.200 I think Jen and I have a plan for this 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.800 for this version. We're going in depth. We're going to 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.760 be very open. We're gonna we're not gonna sugarcoat. We're 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:06.959 gonna talk about everything. Um and I think ultimately, Jenna, 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:09.480 you and I talked about is that there was so 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:14.000 much joy in the process of making Glee. Yes, obviously 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:15.600 there are bad things and we will talk about them, 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.000 but there was a lot of good and we want 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.360 to explore that. We want to get into the details 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:24.480 of the nitty gritty of different departments and who the 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.160 show have impacted and affected and so going into this 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.840 first episode and to relaunching this whole thing, we were 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:36.080 talking about who could we have, Well, we figured we'd 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:41.119 start at the top, right who who better than the man, 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:46.080 the myth, the legend himself, Ryan Murphy. Ryan Murphy, Honestly, 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.480 I feel like there was a reckoning in the last 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:54.040 two years in the best way possible. Um, what you've 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.840 seen in the media, what you've seen is just a 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:02.280 snippet of all of them, of the madness that went 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.520 on around Glee. But there's so much good and there 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:07.920 was so much joy and this thing was, honestly, at 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:09.680 least the first couple of years, was made with so 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:13.600 much love and UM, I'm just really excited to share 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.400 that with you guys. And I feel like we've we've 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.560 had this, you know, open conversation with Ryan Murphy over 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.120 the last two years as well, and with all of that, 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.760 I think everybody's going to this with a new perspective 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.840 of some sort and and that's why we're doing this 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:36.040 and who better to kick it off. We just talk 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:41.120 to Ryan for almost three hours. He was so great, open, 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:46.040 an honest conversation, and we learned a lot of things 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.960 we never knew about behind the scenes. We asked a 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.120 lot of things, we had questions about that we we 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:55.800 have been dying to ask um that we may never 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.640 get those answers again. So and he was not shying 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:03.920 away from and and everything. Buckle up. We hope you 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.160 enjoy this. We sure did. We learned a lot and 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:11.880 here's our kickoff episode. Enjoy our conversation with Ryan Murphy. 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:16.919 Let's start at the very beginning, Ryan Murphy. For the people, everybody, 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:21.799 this is why old people right, this is Ryan Show today. 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.480 Seeing as we have you, we're not going to let 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:29.560 you go until we go through everything. And you signed 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.680 off on that I did. I sort of told you both, like, 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:37.320 you know, I've never really talked about Glee or the 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:42.440 making of Glee, and you know, for all of us, 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:44.640 I think it was the beginning of a lot of things, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:46.520 the end of a lot of things. And I thought, 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:48.240 you know what, I'm just going to talk about all 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:52.000 of it and say an answer anything that's asked me, 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.840 and then this is going to be like a really 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:58.560 intense therapy session. So I have my clean xbox nearby, 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:02.400 and already your ugs on, you're on a couch, my 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.840 egs on. I'm on a couch. I decided to treat 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:09.080 this like a psychological experiment, and we've all taken and 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.480 we're ready. We're ready to dive deep. I'm ready to 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.160 deep dive and answer any arcane. There's no question too 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:18.480 small or too big. I think we all need this 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.680 for some reason. Glee happened over fifteen years ago, and 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.160 it keeps coming back and people won't let it die. 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.400 So let's just do it this. We're bringing it. Let's 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.599 let's go at the very beginning, very beginning. Yeah, I 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.279 think so two thousand seven or two thousand eight, Niptuck 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.839 was in the throes of success, still in the air. Um, 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.279 you remember you did a pilot called Pretty Handsome with 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:48.880 John Grof and you carry and Moss. Yeah, you showed us, 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:53.239 I showed you, guys, and that pilot didn't go didn't 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:58.640 go forward. How did you go from What was this 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.880 process like? Because the story we you heard was you 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:03.919 met someone at a gym and got handed a script 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.800 and eventually that turned into Glee. But what was your 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.240 experience of how did Glee happen coming off of Pretty 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:15.480 Handsome and Niptuck still being on the air. Mm hmm, 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.239 it was it was always a great It's a great 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.600 lesson that I always tell people, particularly young people, like 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:27.920 every crushing no leads to the ultimate, bigger yes. And 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.800 that's exactly what happened in the case of Glee. So 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:36.040 I had this big, shiny hit called Niptuck. And when 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.360 you have a hit like that, you know pretty much 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.400 the next thing that you do, particularly if you're doing 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:44.760 it for the same network, they will say, Okay, great, 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.280 let's do that. So I put my heart into this 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:51.080 show called Pretty Handsome with Joseph Findes. It was actually 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.360 the first time I think Jonathan Groff had ever been 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:57.920 before a camera, as I remember, and I remember saying like, 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.400 you can't look into the lens, like that's the rule 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.000 number one. And he was so charming and was you know, 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:08.240 the typical Johnny fashioned like Olivier and Take one. And 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.560 so I did it. It was it was very much 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:15.000 like Transparent. It was it was like ten years before Transparent, 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.039 and we all loved it and thought it was great. 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:21.200 It was about um, a male guyd of collegist who 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:25.440 realize that he's a woman and Dot Marie Jones was 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.880 in it, and you know, it was just an amazing 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:33.000 cast and they called me up and they said, we 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:34.840 love this, we think it's one of the best things 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.720 that we've ever seen. We cannot sell advertising for it. 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.960 The advertiser advertisers have already told us no, and we 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.279 can't put it on the air. And I was really 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:46.200 really upset, and I think I took to my bed 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.800 for two weeks. And right at the same time, I 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.040 had started an overall deal at Fox with Dana Walden, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.320 who has gone on to be my big mentor and champion, 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.359 and she made me have a dinner where her and 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:02.560 she said, you can't be depressed about this. You just 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.839 have to keep going on and you have to challenge yourself. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:11.840 And she said, what have you always wanted to do 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.200 that you've never done? And I said, well, I've always 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.720 wanted to do a musical. And she paused and she said, well, 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.680 that's not gonna work because there's never been a musical 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.840 that worked on television like there was famously this Stephen 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.440 Boco show called cop Rock, and then there was a 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.960 Melanie Griffith show around that time. I think it was 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.520 set in Las Vegas that was people singing, but it 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:38.120 didn't work. And I said, well, what if we do 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:43.160 a musical that goes on sometime after American Idol or 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.560 before American Idol, because that which was the biggest, biggest 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.600 show in the world. So while we were having these 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.880 conversations and I was trying to figure it out, like serendipity, 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:54.880 I went to the gym and I was in a 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.560 towel and a guy came up, Mike Novec came up 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.400 and handed me the script and he said said, I 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:03.800 have a feeling you were in show choir. Am I right? 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.720 And I was like, yeah, I guess I've got a 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.600 huge gay face in a towel in a gym, and 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.920 I said I was. And he said, my friend wrote 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:14.680 the script and you should read it, and he gave 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.080 it to me, and I didn't read it for a 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.440 couple of weeks while Dana and I were continually trying 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.920 to talk about, well, what is the musical to crack like, 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.360 what is it? At one point it was going to 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.440 be a draculum musical that would have gone over real great. 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.360 And so then I finally read Ian script on a plane, 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.440 and in Ian's original script, it was a very dark 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:41.440 comedy that had kind of the idea of it, and 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.480 Ian and I were both in quired and Mr Shoe 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.800 I believe as a crystal meth addict in Ian's script, 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:53.720 so I like doing was he like touching the children? 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:57.839 It was it was like a very dark dark It 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.920 was sort of like election, remember that Reese Wather's election, 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:05.960 but like the NC seventeen version of show Choir with 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:10.120 like a weird protagonist who is unraveling. And as soon 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.440 as I read it, I was like, Okay, well this 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.320 is it, and I said what if we? Because what 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:19.400 I loved was the idea of um kids in high school. 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.440 And one of the things that I have since learned 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:29.240 in um my career is it it seems like shows 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.679 that work or TV experiences that work very often feature 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.320 people going through quote unquote first times, first kiss, first loss, 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.679 first singing, singing experience, on and on and on. So 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.440 I kind of instinctively wanted to do something about first 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.160 and I wanted to do something after my transsexual show 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.640 didn't go that was the opposite of that. Like I 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:58.400 wanted something very very poppy and primary colors and blue 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.080 sky and not dark. I had done Niptuck and I 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:02.760 had done pretty handsome, and I was like, I just 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:07.600 need to do something optimistic, and so I convinced Ian 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:12.360 to work on a draft that sort of leaned into 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.600 all of that stuff, and we presented it to Dana 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:20.120 and she actually liked it and she said, I think 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.280 that this could actually work. So she was the first 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:27.200 champion of it, just as the idea UM. And then 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.040 we started writing that and it sort of took six 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:34.480 months to write it, and we wrote it, and then 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:40.160 the interesting thing was we turned it in and Kevin Riley, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.760 who was had hired me at f f X and 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:47.240 was now running Fox with Peter Lagory, said I love 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:50.280 this pilot. It's weird, it'll probably never go It has 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:55.559 one huge problem, and knowing you, I'm shocked and disappointed 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.160 in you. And I said, oh my god, what And 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.080 he goes, there's no bad person in here, like all 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.600 these people are nice and optimistic, and he goes, there's 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.680 no one to hate, and I said, you're right, And 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.120 then Ian and I talked and within fifteen minutes, I said, 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.560 I know what it is. It's a horrible cheerleading coach 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.560 like Jane Jane Lynch type person. And I had worked 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:21.840 with Jane before UM, but we kept calling her Jane 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.000 Lynch like so that's then we put Cecil Vester into 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.400 the pilot script and if you notice going back that 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:33.560 character is not in it a lot um and and 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.520 and that's why because we just had to put it 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:37.319 in there to get it green lead. And then Kevin 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.960 was like, eureka, you've done it. So then it got 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.760 we got it picked up and we were off to 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:48.120 the races. But it was a very interesting, bizarre way 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:52.720 to make something. What's I remember you when you would 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:54.080 sort of tell us like the short version of that 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.480 story back in the day when you like I walked 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.800 into Fox and they were like, okay, sure, go for it. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.320 Was like, who in the right mind would be like, yeah, um, 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.719 you this TV person who has created all these dark 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.280 shows and this pilot that we love that we can't 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.600 actually green light. We want you to go for this 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:17.400 thing that's probably the hardest thing to get success with. 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.960 And they were like, yeah, go for it. On multiple levels, well, 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:22.760 like do you feel like you were out of your 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:24.800 element or in your element? Because we always kept like 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.800 when we were doing press after the pilot, everybody was like, 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.240 this is so not Ryan Murphy. This is this is 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:32.760 the opposite of what Ryan Murphy does. Like, do you 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:34.920 feel like you are in or out of your element 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:39.400 creating this show. I really felt like I was in 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:44.640 my element because you know, I had kind of lived 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:50.000 that show in a weird way, because there were parts 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.000 of me in all of the regular parts, you know, 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.520 the small group of regulars. Then it became like you know, 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.760 Night of a Thousand Stars eventually, but they were like 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.839 five key part and I think there was a lot 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:03.680 of me in all of those parts, because you know, 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.800 Ian and I had really were working on the just 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.000 the ideas of it, and I felt very personal to 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:15.480 all of them, you know. Um, And you know, I 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:20.320 started this business writing Popular, which was a very also 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.160 a high school show that was a comedy. But then 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.080 I became the prince of Darkness. And I think that 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:29.240 what the town does is that you are your last hit, right, 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.400 so then you're suddenly that thing. And I never thought 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:36.040 it was true. And it was a very interesting time 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:40.240 in the life of show business in Hollywood because if 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.960 you look back at it now, you know, really the 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:47.000 two biggest champions of Glee, we're Dana Walden and Jen Sulky. 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.280 Jen has gone on to run Amazon, and these two 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:53.559 powerhouses were the ones I wouldn't say they were battling 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.640 the guys, because the guys, you know, Kevin Riley and 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:05.560 and Peter Rice and Peter Legory were always interested in it. 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.839 But it was a very interesting, long battle. But for 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.679 some there was something about it that as soon as 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:13.520 we made it, I just knew that it was special, 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.880 and I kept just saying to everybody, just get it 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.679 on the air, and if it gets on the air, 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.440 I know it's gonna work. So you know, when you 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:23.480 that was back when there was such a thing as 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.200 pilot season. So we made the pilot and we turned 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:32.320 it in and you had to do things called test screeners. 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.760 So we took Glee, Dane and I in Jen and 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.200 we went to some place in Studio City with a 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.800 test audience and we showed it to them, and I 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.400 think it literally got the worst scores in the history 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:49.720 of the bombed. It was just like complete bomb And 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.960 the thing that at the end of it um the 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:58.080 people didn't realize it was a musical, so they kept 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:01.080 there was like checked which category or you best, how 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:07.200 you would market this show? And they not a single 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.040 person and there were thirty six people in that room 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:13.920 thought that it was a musical. Um, so they one 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.360 person a lot of people thought it was a satire 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:20.640 and they would they wrote that, which it kind of was. Yeah. 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:28.160 So then there was the powerful person in the world 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:32.320 who really didn't understand it, and there was you know, 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:34.600 back then there all these different levels of programmers. There 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.400 was also a lot of I'll just say it, there 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.840 was a lot of homophobic fear about this show. Um. 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.640 There was one very powerful person within the corporation who 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.680 would repeatedly at screenings of it when they were showing 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:47.480 it before it was picked up, who kept calling it 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:52.920 the fag show, which made everybody in the executives who 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.480 had championed it furious. And that was back in the 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:58.160 day where you could say this in a room full 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.960 of people and nobody would bat an eye, especially you 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:05.200 were super super powerful, super powerful in your doctors, you know, 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:10.800 standing there and that you know, like this person also 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.840 came up to me a different no matter. It was 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.280 just hilarious. Like it was one of those things where 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.600 there were like really five people who believed in it. 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:26.760 And then there was Joe Early, who did the marketing 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:28.880 of it, instantly got what it was. He was the 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:31.800 one who working with me came up with the color 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.840 scape of the yellows and the reds and all of 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:38.120 you guys doing the l's on your head. It was 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.800 very simple, and we worked, Joe and I worked a 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.720 lot on that concept. But the thing about it that 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.480 was great is is it had all these guardian angels. 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:51.600 It had Dana first and foremost, who after that disastrous 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.280 test screating took me out for a drink and she said, 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.000 you know what, I don't care. I don't care what 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.560 they think they're wrong. What version was the test? Was 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.640 it the one that actually aired? No, the version of 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:09.600 the test had the infamous long Um disco dancing segment 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:14.440 with Mr She was a child Um. And I will say, like, 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:20.640 after that disastrous screening, the good thing about that screening 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:23.200 was it sort of made everybody put on there, Okay, well, 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:28.280 how do we convince people that this is a mainstream concept? Um? 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.280 And it was. The idea was if you take that 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.639 out and get right to you know, because that was 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:40.040 polarizing because the costumes were like based on Copacabana. It 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.720 was very very odd and so that that was the 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.399 first thing to go, and not much after that, and 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.920 once that we lifted that out I think it's since 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.160 been seen in like DVD cuts and things like that. 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:56.639 Um we um, yeah, we we took that out and 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.680 then um people were more comed rble with it. And 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:02.640 then we didn't make any changes at all. And then 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.960 the interesting thing was, I don't know if it was 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:09.639 based on my relationships, I think so. Um. And also 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.800 just because the like Dana and gen and and everybody 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.000 had been the ringer through it, we got like the 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:21.600 first thirteen ordered and that was a magical thing because 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.399 you know, we got to make those first the first 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.720 thirteen episodes, no one had seen it, no one had 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:33.280 watched it, and we were on the paramount lots. Yeah, 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.560 we were making it in a real bubble and it 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:37.240 was the only thing I was working on the Pray 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.760 Love with Julia Roberts at the time. But you know, 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.119 it was very, very singular. I don't even remember how 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.000 many of those did I direct three of the thirteen? 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.960 I think, um, maybe three or four. But I was 0:18:53.400 --> 0:19:00.080 I just remember making it and not really caring if 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.280 it was going to be a hit or a bomb, 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.320 because I knew that the first third Team would get 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.119 on the air, and I thought, well, maybe this is 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.040 gonna be like a Freaks and Geeks thing where you know, 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.520 the third teen will air and then it will be canceled, 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:15.480 but people will look back on it. Finally, because I 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:17.560 knew that it would mean something to anybody who had 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:22.560 been in show choir. Yeah, what were your expectations? None? None, 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:28.000 and you know, there was it. My expectation was actually 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:32.840 when we aired the pilot, it aired in May, I think, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.240 right around the American Idolphin. It was right after the 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:40.000 season finale American, and I thought, just I don't know 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.119 how this is gonna do. And it did. And I 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.280 remember the next morning and there was that you know, 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.800 back then it's just not that long ago, but so 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:52.480 long ago, you know, you'd get the call. Well it did, okay, 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:56.520 it didn't do great, you know, but we still love you. 0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:59.680 We hope that you don't look at this as discouraging. 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:04.080 It's it's okay and you got your being seen and yeah, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:05.840 so it was sort of I always thought it was 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:07.720 gonna be like that, Like I thought it was gonna 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.760 be niche, because you know, I had gone through niche 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.920 before with Popular, you know, which aired for two seasons 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.520 and had a very small loyal old audience. Back then, 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.000 we would call it CULTI, but you look at the 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:25.879 ratings for those shows that are culty. Those ratings existed today. 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:30.199 Popular was more would be like Game of Thrones, like 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.639 more and more people were just watching television, and the 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.760 ratings were so high compared to now. So I think 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:42.040 I remember it the pilot aired, I got on a 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:46.240 plane and flew to Bali, right, and I just thought, well, 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.160 that's what it's gonna be. It's gonna air in the fall, 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.320 and it's gonna be something that we loved making and 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:55.160 we were all proud of, and it's just gonna kind 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.119 of be a culty thing and that's that. And I 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:03.239 had no expectation for the back seven episodes, although I 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.080 had things in mind, and I knew that if it 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:07.879 did get picked up, I was going to do a 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.200 Madonna episode and that was going to be my big 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.399 swan song. I'd come here to do what I was 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:17.960 gonna do. So I had no exactly and I had 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.880 no plans other than that. And I don't know how 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:23.440 you guys felt. I remember the last day of shooting. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.359 I remember getting the cast together and saying something because 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:31.639 I had a really bad experience with the with the 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.560 niptuck ending, you know, and going through something that burned 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:37.840 really bright, and then everybody kind of falling apart, and 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.680 I remember giving a speech about staying close and being 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:43.040 in it for the work. I don't know if you 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.760 remember that. I believe. I believe I cried that a 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:51.720 couple of times. God help. But you know what I 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:56.800 really remember about that time was, you know, even you're 0:21:56.840 --> 0:21:59.400 you're saying that I showed you guys the pretty handsome pilot, 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.760 Like there were some time where, you know, almost all 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:07.359 of the cast was known in certain circles, Broadway circles, Jenna, 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:12.080 certainly Kevin from your musical background, but nobody really knew 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.840 a lot about the cast. And we spent every day together. 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:20.760 We had weekends together. I mean, I would bring you 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:23.720 guys into this little black room that was the size 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.520 of a closet, like thirteen of you, and I would 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.560 screen rough cuts just so that you would get excited 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:34.720 and people would be cheering everybody else's musical numbers. And 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.800 it was a very it was a very wonderful. You know, 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:42.439 I was single at the time. I had not you know, 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.159 but also Glee led me to my marriage, which is 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:51.000 another story. But yeah, it was like it was my life. 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:57.719 It was Julia Robertson, you guys and munt and we 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:01.280 were all we all that the stupidest things I could 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:05.040 possibly imagine. Stop talking now. Kevin and I remember we 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:07.080 talked about this a lot, like we spent It was 0:23:07.280 --> 0:23:10.360 very much a bubble. The world hadn't seen the show yet. 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:12.240 We didn't know what it was going to be. Our 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:16.679 expectations were non um. In the middle of it, the 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.520 pilot airs and it does well, and all of a sudden, 0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:23.199 there's these commercials of Glee was watched by fifteen million 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:25.359 people and the song's number one on iTunes. Were like, 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:28.000 we did the mall to this hot topic mall tour 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:32.040 or you know, like the thing that I'm glad that 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:34.880 you remember the headlines is being good because I remember 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:37.800 those headlines as well. They got fifteen million viewers, but 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:40.639 that's only because people who were watching American Idol forgot 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:43.040 to turn on the channel, So it's not a thing. 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:46.760 I remember thinking that because I was always sort of 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.200 the numbers guy, were like the cast. I would always 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:50.960 report back to the cast like what our ratings and 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.160 music were doing, and I remember being like, Okay, well, 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.800 they're like, really milking this. We don't really know yet, 0:23:57.240 --> 0:24:00.240 but we are. In every department, I think it wasn't 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:04.440 just us, It wasn't just you. In every department, the crew, production, 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:07.840 behind the scenes, everyone felt the same thing, where no 0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:09.720 one talked about if it was going to be successful 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.840 or not. We were just having the time of our lives. 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.639 We'd show up, we'd make the crew laugh, we'd have 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.159 to do these crazy musical numbers with the incredible Andrew 0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:23.040 Mitchell and Steadycam and it was everyone just felt was 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:27.919 all in on making this thing work, that we you 0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:31.119 were creating the formula as it was happening, and we 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:33.439 were all just sort of like, I don't know what 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:35.360 this is going to be. I don't know who this 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:37.639 is for, but we love it. It felt like it 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:41.560 was for us, and you know, it felt like you 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:44.400 were also you were very hands on with us from 0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:47.359 the very beginning, where you gave us I don't know, 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:48.960 I think three or four speeches like the one you 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:54.520 talked about where and you did explain sort of vaguely 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:58.520 about coming off of this Niptuck experience where you wanted 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:01.680 to make sure that you handled this in a way 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:04.760 that you felt was better or healthier or a more 0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:07.640 correct way to deal with the cast. And I think 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:11.080 because we were young and completely unknown and I don't 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:16.399 know us completely green, that you would talk us through, 0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:21.320 like gently, sort of hold our hands through if their success, 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:24.119 if we're lucky enough to have any success, this is 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:27.560 sort of what will happen, and if it does happen, 0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:29.800 this is how we should handle it together as a group. 0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:32.399 And then when we did start to build momentum and 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:35.119 get success, you would sort of check in and be like, Okay, 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:38.840 here's where we are. This is very rare air and 0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:41.960 this may never happen again. Yeah, like this is And 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:44.119 that was for you, that was for us, that was 0:25:44.160 --> 0:25:47.320 for everyone. And I remember I feel like had you 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:50.080 not been there with the foresight to sort of talk 0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:52.760 us through that you had been running shows before, but 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:55.440 you also didn't know at the time you were about 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:59.040 to be running this billion dollar business, so you didn't 0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:02.480 know either. I knew nothing. Yeah, you know how to 0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:06.120 run a successful show that was had a core fan 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:08.439 base and was getting picked up, and that's what you 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:11.960 were concerned about for us, which was I think very helpful. 0:26:12.200 --> 0:26:16.240 But then it sort of exploded into this yeah, yeah, 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:19.159 it was. It was a I would say it was 0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:21.399 like the best of times the worst of times for me. 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:25.760 The thing that I was very aware of was, Okay, 0:26:27.240 --> 0:26:30.160 I hope this is a TV show that's like loved 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:32.840 and you know, along the lines of my so called 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:37.760 life at best. So I had only had really one 0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:39.919 hit at that point, and it, let me tell you, 0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:42.040 it was a cable hit, and so it was not 0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:46.400 like it was not it was a smaller, utra ultra hit. 0:26:47.640 --> 0:26:49.840 And then to go from being like, okay, you're a 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:54.720 showrunner to your the manager of a billion dollar brand 0:26:54.840 --> 0:27:01.000 literally within a month, because what happened was the show 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:05.640 I was in Italy shooting with Julia when the shows 0:27:05.760 --> 0:27:07.919 that we had had in the can started to shoot 0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:12.119 started to air in September, and it was one of 0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:16.879 those things where it came on and with every episode 0:27:16.920 --> 0:27:19.320 it built and built and built, until I think by 0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:23.159 episode three, when Kristin Chenowith came on the show, it 0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:27.720 had just become a phenomenon that sometimes you see like 0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:31.040 something just explodes out of the gate and then it's there. 0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:36.200 So I was getting all of these calls from executive saying, 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:38.520 oh my god, it's doubled in the ratings, It's tripled 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:40.199 in the ratings. That that that, that that that, and 0:27:40.240 --> 0:27:44.520 then the Fall Award nominations came out, and then the 0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:47.720 music started to become it literally its own industry, and 0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:51.960 I had that was overwhelming for me because you know, 0:27:52.160 --> 0:27:54.199 pretty much for the first three years, any song that 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:56.840 was on Glee I handpicked, and it was because I 0:27:56.920 --> 0:28:00.440 loved the song and I could sing it in car 0:28:00.720 --> 0:28:04.240 like it was just like I would have CDs mixtapes 0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:07.000 of things like. It was just I was a fan. 0:28:07.440 --> 0:28:09.560 The show was about being a fan and a love 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:14.919 of pop music and Broadway music and classic rock yeah 0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:18.399 who yeah, And a lot of that was Brad stuff. 0:28:18.440 --> 0:28:21.040 You know, Brad was interested in the Springsteen stuff and 0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:26.159 the Speedwagon stuff and um yeah, it was what was 0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:30.920 interesting about it was so then it became suddenly like, Okay, 0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:34.560 now you have a show that I believe, by the 0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:36.400 time it hit the spring was the number one show 0:28:36.440 --> 0:28:39.640 in the world. Then you had this other component, which 0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:42.120 is the music, which for a long time, the record 0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:45.560 held where the Glee cast was, you know, the number 0:28:45.560 --> 0:28:48.320 one recording artist in the world. I think it held 0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:53.480 until last year until Drake snatched it away with his 0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:56.360 Canadian hands. You know, I love that drink. He also 0:28:56.480 --> 0:28:59.360 played a wheelchair bound student in a high school show. Yes, 0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:02.360 he did can Then we did that, and then of 0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:05.240 course it was that thing that happened, which in hindsight 0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:08.120 was probably a mistake, which was let's go on tour, 0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:11.360 because what happened the first season we had fun doing 0:29:11.360 --> 0:29:15.200 the little you know, the radio city music hall thing 0:29:15.280 --> 0:29:17.400 that felt like that at that that aren't that. It 0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:21.400 was silly and crazy. But then to go and then 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:24.960 you guys became like little Taylor Swifts like that became 0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:28.320 this thing and it just was it was. I was 0:29:28.440 --> 0:29:31.680 very overwhelmed by the three headed hydra element of it 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:35.240 because again I knew nothing, and I had never had 0:29:35.280 --> 0:29:39.000 any experience doing this, right, I had never had any 0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:42.840 experience of running something on this level. Yep. I mean 0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:45.760 there's no training for that unless you've actually done it before. 0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:48.160 There's no school, like, here are the things you need 0:29:48.200 --> 0:29:49.960 to know when you're running a billion dollar business that 0:29:50.200 --> 0:29:53.880 is TV and music and touring. Well, this is the 0:29:54.000 --> 0:29:57.200 This is the thing that's very I think up about Hollywood, 0:29:57.280 --> 0:30:00.959 right is you can be a person who is writing 0:30:00.960 --> 0:30:03.840 a script you are sitting in a room by yourself 0:30:03.920 --> 0:30:07.440 with your Starbucks and a sad, broken down laptop. You 0:30:07.480 --> 0:30:09.440 can write something, you can turn it in, and then 0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:12.280 you can have a corporation say here's a billion dollars, 0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:15.280 go have fun. And you're like, I don't know how 0:30:15.280 --> 0:30:17.360 to hire people. I don't know how to manage people. 0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:20.400 I don't know how to how am I supposed to 0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:23.080 do all this while working on the creative element of 0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:25.800 the show. It's truly like, you still have to turn 0:30:25.840 --> 0:30:29.680 in two episodes back then, yeah, twenty two, and the 0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:33.720 three of you wrote those yes to all together, yes 0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:37.760 for the first two seasons. Yes, So it was It's 0:30:37.800 --> 0:30:40.360 just I wish that there was some for to sort 0:30:40.400 --> 0:30:43.160 of formal training on how to be a showrunner. And 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:45.560 you weren't given the keys to the kingdom unless you 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:49.120 learned how to not just manage your time, not just 0:30:49.200 --> 0:30:51.600 manage other people, but also how to manage your own 0:30:51.720 --> 0:30:56.040 mental health. Because I don't know any CEO in the 0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:59.480 world who becomes CEO without like at least ten years 0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:03.600 of training. So it's absolutely insane to be able to 0:31:03.880 --> 0:31:08.360 you know, manage something, let alone a cultural phenomenon. It 0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:11.040 was very, very very difficult for me, and I remember 0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:13.400 feeling like I failed a lot, and I did fail 0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:18.400 a lot, and I have, you know, regrets about that 0:31:18.560 --> 0:31:21.080 about I shouldn't have done a lot of those things. 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:23.080 I shouldn't have agreed to a lot of those things. 0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:28.000 But at the same point, I'll never forget that opening 0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:32.840 night at Staples Center. It was insane. It was like, well, who, like, okay, 0:31:33.000 --> 0:31:35.239 check that up the bucket list. But there was a 0:31:35.280 --> 0:31:39.160 cost to that, you know, there was I can't even imagine, 0:31:39.240 --> 0:31:41.240 and I mean I do imagine, but like for you 0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:46.520 guys having to not just do twenty two episodes a 0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:49.000 year of a one hour but recorded the musical numbers 0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:52.080 while in choreography between takes. I mean, thank god you 0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:59.600 were all so young. But it was but you know, 0:31:59.640 --> 0:32:02.760 back then and there was no conversation about mental health. 0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:08.920 There was no conversation about, um, none of that stuff. 0:32:08.920 --> 0:32:10.560 We want to we really want to dive into that 0:32:10.640 --> 0:32:13.480 on this podcast too, about you know, like taking care 0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:16.640 of yourself and what and how Hollywood does generate this 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:20.640 like go go go kind of hustle culture that um, 0:32:20.720 --> 0:32:23.520 you you really do have to look out for yourself 0:32:23.560 --> 0:32:27.360 and some people don't even know how to um. And 0:32:27.400 --> 0:32:29.960 I think for us it was like over everything was 0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:33.040 so overnight for you. For us, like this was all 0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:37.120 brand new territory and we didn't know how to We 0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:39.000 couldn't say no, We didn't know how to say no. 0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:41.440 In a way, that's how I felt. I could not 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:44.560 say no because you know, for what, it's so hard 0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:47.000 to get a job. You finally get a job, you 0:32:47.000 --> 0:32:49.840 get hired on the show, and then it's successful, and 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:51.640 then on top of that, it's it means a lot 0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:53.680 to people, you know, like you hope to get a job, 0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:56.160 and you hope the check clears and you get to 0:32:56.200 --> 0:32:58.360 keep going back every day. But at the same time, 0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:01.160 we're now you know, hearing from people like what you 0:33:01.200 --> 0:33:02.960 hope for the show, it did find his audience and 0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:05.600 it was a lot bigger than you ever could have imagined. 0:33:06.200 --> 0:33:09.280 And it's like, I think we come from the world 0:33:09.400 --> 0:33:13.360 of especially the theater world with Jenna and Leah, where 0:33:13.560 --> 0:33:15.360 it's like you just put your head down and work 0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:17.680 that you say thank you and you go full out 0:33:18.160 --> 0:33:20.760 whenever you're asked to work. And so I had the 0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:24.720 same experience and the only gauge I had that we 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:28.120 were probably doing more than what was normal. Was sort 0:33:28.120 --> 0:33:30.680 of from the crew. They're like, anything you do after 0:33:30.720 --> 0:33:42.520 this is going to be easier. You know, I do 0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:44.160 want to win in one thing that I just said, 0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:47.280 because I was thinking about it about you know, the 0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:50.240 truth of the matter is I did say yes that 0:33:50.440 --> 0:33:52.960 the responsibility is on me. And I'll tell you why 0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:55.880 I said yes to all of these things because when 0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:58.560 I first started off in the business, you know, it 0:33:58.600 --> 0:34:01.600 was a gay guy. I would go to meetings with 0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:04.440 executives and some of them would literally imitate my voice 0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:07.560 like it was rough. It was really really hard, and 0:34:07.680 --> 0:34:09.839 I thought, I'm never going to be a success. I'm 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:12.080 never going to get a job. My show was canceled 0:34:12.120 --> 0:34:15.719 the first two seasons after popular. After that, I struggled. 0:34:15.760 --> 0:34:17.960 So I knew what it was like to have a 0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:22.439 weird sensibility and to not work. So once you get 0:34:22.440 --> 0:34:25.640 a green light and you're driving a very fast car, 0:34:26.040 --> 0:34:28.799 if the next light is a green light, it's human 0:34:28.880 --> 0:34:30.960 nature to go through the green light, to take the 0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:34.680 yes because it may never come back again. And of 0:34:34.719 --> 0:34:39.000 course I've since realized that that's probably was not the 0:34:39.040 --> 0:34:41.400 way to be, but just for my own life, I 0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:45.400 was like, well, this could be the end. So the 0:34:45.440 --> 0:34:48.040 only time I ever said no was in the middle 0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:50.120 of the third season. They really did want to do 0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:55.319 a Darren Chris Dalton Warbler's spinoff, and I said, I 0:34:55.320 --> 0:35:00.480 don't think that's I don't think I think. Wow, Yeah, 0:35:00.560 --> 0:35:03.080 we we were talking about doing a Warbler spinoff, and 0:35:03.080 --> 0:35:04.960 I said, I just I don't have the bandwidth. I 0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:07.760 can't do it. And I should have done it. Actually, 0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:09.440 looking back on it, what I wouldn't kill to have 0:35:09.480 --> 0:35:12.239 done that show because it would have been great. Um, 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:15.799 it would have been and it would have solved a 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:19.360 lot of other problems. But I yeah, I mean, I 0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:22.759 just would like to emphasize again, and I've said this 0:35:22.880 --> 0:35:26.440 to you. You know, we had a really an interesting 0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:30.440 thing that happened in my life when Naya passed away. 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:32.920 It was a moment where all of us were kind 0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:37.880 of brought back together for a while in grief, and 0:35:37.920 --> 0:35:39.799 we finally all got to say, you know what I 0:35:39.920 --> 0:35:42.240 really think of you, and you know what I really 0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:44.759 think you did, and you know how I really felt 0:35:44.800 --> 0:35:48.400 about that experience. And it was really interesting for me 0:35:48.480 --> 0:35:51.480 to hear the truth that you guys had, which was, 0:35:52.600 --> 0:35:56.360 you know, we had started it in such a tight, 0:35:56.840 --> 0:36:00.680 loving way. And then as it went on and it 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:03.720 became bigger, I sort of felt like I just became 0:36:03.880 --> 0:36:07.359 so overwhelmed by the business aspect of it that I 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:10.319 became almost like an absentee father who shows up at 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:11.920 the end of the day and pats the kids. And 0:36:11.960 --> 0:36:14.839 I had no idea to think that. You guys were like, 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:18.480 where did dad go? Why? What? Where did you go? 0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:21.320 And where I was at was I was in meetings 0:36:21.320 --> 0:36:24.680 looking at glee merch, trying to pick the right color 0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:29.000 of blue, or planning the tour, or dealing with the 0:36:29.120 --> 0:36:36.760 ratings or right the awards. Yes, it was. It was, 0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:39.200 And it was interesting to go through that experience with 0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:42.359 you guys not so long ago, to sort of sit 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:45.000 and be like, huh, yeah, I kind of that up. 0:36:45.040 --> 0:36:47.160 And I wish I had been more present. I wish 0:36:47.200 --> 0:36:51.080 I had known. I wish I had known how to 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:58.480 be um a proper parent like I did not know. 0:36:58.840 --> 0:37:01.080 I was making it up as I was going along. 0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:05.160 And the interesting thing about that whole experience was that 0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:11.200 it really did prepare me for parenting. It taught me 0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:14.120 a lot about how to be with young people, what 0:37:14.239 --> 0:37:16.799 to do and what not to do and also more importantly, 0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:21.960 like the most important thing is the human connection, and um, yeah, 0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:24.879 all the other stuff doesn't matter, like the tour should 0:37:25.000 --> 0:37:27.400 should not have mattered. And I wish I had just 0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:32.560 sat my ass on that set and enjoyed the experience 0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:35.719 and was there just because I remember sometimes when I 0:37:35.760 --> 0:37:40.440 would show up later and waft in in my black 0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:44.400 vampire outfits just sit there that you know, like I 0:37:44.440 --> 0:37:47.319 remember just like you guys would look at me like 0:37:47.440 --> 0:37:52.800 mm hmmmmnet there was a disconnect and then but slowly 0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:55.640 you would all I would, I would, you know, be 0:37:55.680 --> 0:37:57.600 sitting there and slowly the next thing that we'd be 0:37:57.640 --> 0:38:02.040 sitting there singing Andy Monica songs like we did when 0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:04.000 we were making the pilot and it felt like, oh, 0:38:04.120 --> 0:38:06.440 that feeling that we all had the love that we 0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:09.320 had for that's just each other, but what we were doing, 0:38:10.200 --> 0:38:14.040 UM was still there. And I think a lot about 0:38:14.880 --> 0:38:18.399 and you know, and also I had, UM I've never 0:38:18.440 --> 0:38:20.759 been as close to a cast. I've never tried to 0:38:20.800 --> 0:38:23.440 be as close to a cast, because I think that 0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:26.120 all of our lines like where we friends, was I 0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:29.279 your boss? I I was I was Actually the thing 0:38:29.320 --> 0:38:32.000 that people also think about shoan Runners is like, you know, 0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:34.560 we actually all worked for the same person. We were 0:38:34.600 --> 0:38:38.040 all employees of Fox. I was not your boss. I 0:38:38.080 --> 0:38:40.640 was an employee, although I was given this sort of 0:38:40.800 --> 0:38:44.399 position of power that I really was not prepared for. 0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:48.439 But yeah, it was a It was a particularly those 0:38:48.520 --> 0:38:52.920 beginning years were really really heavy and overwhelming. But I 0:38:52.960 --> 0:38:55.560 have to say I look back on it with a 0:38:55.760 --> 0:39:00.240 real great degree of of affection because for every bad moment, 0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:03.719 there were like a hundred great moments. And I just 0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:06.040 the thing that I remember so vividly was I had 0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:09.640 a house account at the Chateau Armant and I cannot 0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:12.760 tell you how many nights we as a group shut 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:16.520 that place down. I mean we had a ball. We 0:39:16.840 --> 0:39:20.319 had a ball, and I remember even some of the 0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:23.400 first award shows we went to as a group. We 0:39:23.480 --> 0:39:26.600 won't name them, but I just remember us having a 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:30.000 sense of what is happening, like it was so fun. 0:39:30.680 --> 0:39:33.560 It was, it was so fun, and we we had 0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:37.200 a ball, and we were just always together. We were 0:39:37.239 --> 0:39:42.200 always together, whether it was filming at dinner, we were 0:39:42.280 --> 0:39:45.799 together more than we were with our own families. And 0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:48.040 and I think you're right, run like, thanks for sharing that. 0:39:48.120 --> 0:39:53.479 I feel like in a parallel, parallel universe we were 0:39:53.520 --> 0:39:55.840 going through the same thing where we didn't we weren't 0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:58.600 prepared for what was happening in our lives, and we 0:39:58.600 --> 0:40:01.200 weren't prepared for it, and we loved this show, and 0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:04.040 we you know, I I look back with very fond memories. 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:07.960 Now a million good things outweigh the one bad thing 0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:09.799 in the press that we see these days. You know, 0:40:09.880 --> 0:40:12.839 a million great things that weren't talked about, And I 0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:15.280 think that's what we want to do on this show, 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:18.640 is share all of those. But you know, in this 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:22.439 parallel universe, like the show was ours for those first 0:40:22.920 --> 0:40:27.360 thirteen twenty episodes or however many we did before the 0:40:27.440 --> 0:40:30.879 world kind of took it. And that's that was for 0:40:31.000 --> 0:40:33.840 us to make for them in many ways, like it 0:40:34.000 --> 0:40:37.760 changed many lives, it saved lives, and and I'm so 0:40:37.880 --> 0:40:40.439 grateful for that because it kept us going and those 0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:44.400 really hard and seasons of like people are still hanging 0:40:44.400 --> 0:40:47.239 on and still with us and still really enjoying this, 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:50.719 so we do it for them. But um early on, 0:40:50.760 --> 0:40:53.960 like it was ours and then all the power and 0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:57.920 everything was kind of like it became so external, and 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:01.839 that was like an incredibly difficult shift that none of us, 0:41:01.880 --> 0:41:05.560 I think had the time or energy to process at 0:41:05.600 --> 0:41:08.200 that point. We were so exhausted and we were still working. 0:41:08.280 --> 0:41:10.600 You were you started horror story at that point, Like 0:41:10.800 --> 0:41:13.080 there were a million things going on that like nobody 0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:15.520 got to sit in process until you come to a 0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:17.960 point where you lose one friend, you lose two friends, 0:41:17.960 --> 0:41:20.239 you lose three friends, you lose crew members, you lose 0:41:20.239 --> 0:41:24.200 all these really important people in such a momentous time 0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:26.719 in your life that you go back and go, what 0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:29.680 was it really about? What was it that made it 0:41:29.840 --> 0:41:32.279 so special that gives you that feeling of Like I 0:41:32.280 --> 0:41:34.040 remember when we went to the upfronts for the first 0:41:34.120 --> 0:41:36.399 time and we watched that trailer that we had made, 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:40.680 and I was bawling and They're like everybody's laughing at me, 0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:43.319 but I was like, I love this thing. I get it, 0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:46.600 like I got it before I think some people got 0:41:46.600 --> 0:41:48.880 in and I was. I just so attached to it 0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:52.480 and attached to all of us and this little family 0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:56.000 that we had made. So yeah, I think I agree 0:41:56.040 --> 0:41:57.760 with you. Like I look at back at that period 0:41:57.840 --> 0:42:03.920 and I remember being emotional about every cut, like showing 0:42:03.920 --> 0:42:05.799 you guys and sitting in those rooms and crying. And 0:42:05.800 --> 0:42:07.200 I think, if you look back at it, it it was 0:42:07.239 --> 0:42:10.279 a very interesting group of people because all of us 0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:13.200 had something in common. And the thing that when I 0:42:13.239 --> 0:42:16.480 look back is we all were kind of nerds, and 0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:20.000 we all felt unloved and unseen, not just maybe in 0:42:20.000 --> 0:42:23.200 our families but by the business. We all were like 0:42:23.320 --> 0:42:28.640 these kind of people that had weird, unique talents that 0:42:28.719 --> 0:42:32.880 were unseen and finally we got to show them. And 0:42:32.920 --> 0:42:36.200 then against all odds, people loved us after hating us 0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:38.959 for so long. At least that's how I felt. And 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:43.120 that's a very emotional thing that we went through because 0:42:43.120 --> 0:42:46.280 we were kind of united. We were all marginalized people 0:42:47.160 --> 0:42:51.440 and suddenly we became the establishment and the trend setters, 0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:55.839 and that also can screw with your ego, and that 0:42:55.920 --> 0:43:00.560 was also very interesting and bizarre to me, and um 0:43:00.560 --> 0:43:04.880 a lesson learned. But yeah, I just I just, you know, 0:43:04.920 --> 0:43:07.160 it's that thing. I always think, like, God, I really 0:43:07.160 --> 0:43:09.520 did love it, and if I could, those those two 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:12.640 years I will say, from the making of the Glee 0:43:12.640 --> 0:43:16.200 pilot probably to two thousand and eleven were, without questioned, 0:43:16.239 --> 0:43:18.600 the happiest years of my life. Without a doubt. I 0:43:18.719 --> 0:43:22.359 look back on that time and I think, wow, that's 0:43:22.360 --> 0:43:24.520 what I was doing Glee. That's when I met my 0:43:25.600 --> 0:43:27.640 better I mean, I've been friends with my better half, 0:43:27.640 --> 0:43:29.480 but you know, I started dating him because he was 0:43:29.560 --> 0:43:32.000 dating some guy who was like twenty years old. And 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:33.880 he called me up after a long time where I 0:43:33.880 --> 0:43:35.560 hadn't spoken to me. He said, can you get me 0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:39.920 Glee tickets from the guy? I'm like, you've got to 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:45.040 be kidding, and so he I got. I'm like, okay, 0:43:45.160 --> 0:43:47.680 So I got him tickets to the Radio City Glee thing. 0:43:49.160 --> 0:43:51.359 And I was, you know, chain smoking at the time, 0:43:51.400 --> 0:43:53.320 so I was rail thin, and I was wearing this 0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:56.920 Jill sound or coat and I looked good for like 0:43:56.960 --> 0:43:58.720 two weeks in my life. And that was the period. 0:43:59.080 --> 0:44:03.640 And then he saw remember the skinny mini, and then 0:44:04.200 --> 0:44:07.920 he was like, who is what happened here? So that 0:44:07.920 --> 0:44:10.920 that's how I started to date David that night and 0:44:10.960 --> 0:44:17.000 then we kis married right David's But it's sort of 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:20.920 that was a great period in my life. Of listen, 0:44:21.000 --> 0:44:23.680 there were battle royal's but it was fun because you know, 0:44:23.760 --> 0:44:25.799 again I get back to it was the first the 0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:29.400 first big success, the first moment in the spotlight where 0:44:29.880 --> 0:44:32.879 you know, we were all kids, I think, knowing all 0:44:32.920 --> 0:44:34.799 you guys who were singing in front of mirrors with 0:44:34.880 --> 0:44:37.360 hair brushes, and then you get to be in a 0:44:37.360 --> 0:44:41.240 global stage doing something like that, it was a wondrous time. 0:44:41.600 --> 0:44:44.320 It was constantly, every single day was like all of 0:44:44.360 --> 0:44:48.439 our wildest dreams coming true. I feel like, as easy 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:50.239 as it is now to look back and be like, yeah, 0:44:50.360 --> 0:44:52.399 here are things we could have done differently, I also 0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:56.760 feel like and that in the beginning, by you putting 0:44:56.760 --> 0:45:00.400 yourself out there to be our friend, you know, and 0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:01.960 be that close to us, for better or for worse, 0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:05.759 it did make us feel safe and protected. Though. It 0:45:05.840 --> 0:45:10.239 did allow us to show up every day and to 0:45:10.239 --> 0:45:13.240 show our unique abilities and talents and skills that nobody 0:45:13.280 --> 0:45:16.479 else cared to see before. And so I do think 0:45:16.560 --> 0:45:19.799 because of that, because of the tone you said that, yeah, 0:45:19.840 --> 0:45:21.080 even if we hadn't seen you for a while and 0:45:21.080 --> 0:45:23.839 you'd come out set, we'd still run over to you 0:45:23.920 --> 0:45:29.520 because you felt like a foundational aspect of who we are, 0:45:29.800 --> 0:45:32.520 who we are or were in relationship to the show, 0:45:33.480 --> 0:45:37.479 and so you allowed us to be all of those things. 0:45:37.520 --> 0:45:41.799 You pushed us to be our better selves and get 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:44.520 our talent out there as much as possible. In the 0:45:44.600 --> 0:45:48.799 very beginning, yes we're retired. Yeah yeah. And then of 0:45:48.840 --> 0:45:51.760 course it was that thing where you know, I also 0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:57.440 had I remember like I I was the person that 0:45:57.480 --> 0:46:01.080 also had to be the disciplinarian about some of these things, 0:46:01.120 --> 0:46:03.680 like you know, laying down the law, which is absolutely 0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:06.279 absurd now, like you know what it should have been. 0:46:06.280 --> 0:46:07.960 There should have been some person who was just in 0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:12.400 charge of schedules and personalities, and it's like, you know, 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:18.319 there was there was no exactly but you know, like 0:46:18.600 --> 0:46:20.640 I'll just speak graphically and we can cut it out, 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:27.600 you know, like if you want. But I started off 0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:31.640 that job as a writer and a producer, and halfway 0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:35.360 through that job, because of the phenomenon that it became 0:46:36.239 --> 0:46:38.359 and the things that then happened when you were part 0:46:38.360 --> 0:46:40.880 of a phenomenon, and some of them are good, some 0:46:40.920 --> 0:46:43.399 of them are bad, you know, I had to deal 0:46:43.440 --> 0:46:48.480 with things that are absolutely batshit crazy out of my knowledge. 0:46:48.560 --> 0:46:51.480 Like I had no idea about how to handle domestic violence. 0:46:53.080 --> 0:46:55.960 I had no idea how to handle addiction. I had 0:46:56.000 --> 0:46:59.040 no idea how to handle unwanted pregnancies. I had no 0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:01.480 idea how to do any of these things. So I 0:47:01.520 --> 0:47:03.680 was in this role of like the boss but also 0:47:03.719 --> 0:47:08.600 a friend and actually loving everyone. And then it was 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:13.680 just very, very overwhelming, and um again, it really did 0:47:13.719 --> 0:47:16.960 teach me about parenting and what not to do, what 0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:20.839 to do and yeah, and I'm just I'm just so 0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:23.160 relieved and thrilled that at the end of the day. 0:47:23.200 --> 0:47:25.040 And again, I'll go back to the Naya thing, which 0:47:25.040 --> 0:47:28.879 was incredibly healing, but I'm glad that we all got 0:47:28.880 --> 0:47:31.880 to have these It was like a couple of weeks 0:47:31.880 --> 0:47:34.480 to really talk about what Glee did to us and 0:47:34.480 --> 0:47:37.040 what Glee did for us, and those are two very 0:47:37.080 --> 0:47:41.360 different things. And it was really healing and getting to 0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:43.920 because you and I would tell you guys, like, Okay, 0:47:44.320 --> 0:47:46.319 you had that feeling, but did you know that when 0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:48.960 that was going on, I was doing X X Y Y, 0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:51.040 and you guys had no idea because I would always 0:47:51.120 --> 0:47:53.040 keep that stuff from you for the most part. But 0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:56.480 that was that was interesting to share what I was 0:47:56.520 --> 0:47:59.279 going through too, because so many times I think you 0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:01.440 guys would think that I was just this sort of 0:48:01.880 --> 0:48:07.799 automaton dressed in calmed Garson who would come level but 0:48:07.840 --> 0:48:10.279 it wasn't that I was torn up and struggling and 0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:21.480 trying to figure it out. I found it interesting when 0:48:21.680 --> 0:48:29.480 when we did you the night when Naya I went missing, 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:34.600 you called me Ryan, and I remember thinking, because at 0:48:34.640 --> 0:48:38.040 that point I was we were all distraught and you know, 0:48:38.480 --> 0:48:41.479 wondering what was happening. And I remember in the sense 0:48:41.520 --> 0:48:43.319 that I had anytime I talked to you always talked 0:48:43.360 --> 0:48:46.400 about Glee with sort of this I don't know if 0:48:46.400 --> 0:48:49.520 it was anger or it wasn't definitely wasn't positivity. It 0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:53.480 was sort of like I'm over at everything's annoying, everyone's whatever. 0:48:54.160 --> 0:48:57.280 And you called me and I was sort of like, look, 0:48:57.600 --> 0:49:01.239 I don't know how it came up, but I was like, 0:49:01.320 --> 0:49:03.640 I don't know what impression you have of the show, 0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:07.879 but it has brought a lot of us, a lot 0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:10.080 of good and a lot of positivity and a lot 0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:15.000 of joy. And and then from there you and I 0:49:15.080 --> 0:49:18.320 talked every day for I don't know, almost a month, 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:23.759 and very quickly it turned into you know, what do 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:26.080 we all have to lose by not talking to you 0:49:26.120 --> 0:49:30.840 directly into each other about the things that brought us together, 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:36.359 and then what sort of took us apart? And it 0:49:36.440 --> 0:49:41.239 was very interesting also to like watch your transformation sort 0:49:41.239 --> 0:49:44.880 of every phone call of also working through things the 0:49:44.920 --> 0:49:47.319 way we were also all working through things, and I 0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:51.920 felt like it was very um as and it was 0:49:51.960 --> 0:49:55.759 such odd timing but made sense that It's like, of 0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:58.360 course Nia is going to just have us talk about everything, 0:49:58.400 --> 0:50:03.239 through everything out there as she would. And it was 0:50:03.520 --> 0:50:06.680 through grief, like you said, be able to completely sort 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:09.839 of like open up all the wounds from everyone and 0:50:09.880 --> 0:50:11.839 just spill it. And you were like, I'll take it. 0:50:12.239 --> 0:50:14.399 I will sit there and i will take it because 0:50:14.440 --> 0:50:18.680 I want everyone to know that I'm listening and hearing 0:50:18.680 --> 0:50:23.000 what they're saying and I'm accepting, you know, their experience, 0:50:23.680 --> 0:50:27.120 and I was on the other side of it, and um, 0:50:27.160 --> 0:50:30.520 it is interesting now to hear how you've also like 0:50:30.640 --> 0:50:34.080 shifted and had this more you know, positive outlook, because 0:50:34.239 --> 0:50:36.359 I think it's it's so easy to get way down, 0:50:36.480 --> 0:50:39.640 especially externally by all like the ship people say who 0:50:39.680 --> 0:50:42.880 weren't involved in it at all, and it's like, no, 0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:49.319 we spent years having just incredible, incredible, positive, joyful experiences 0:50:49.360 --> 0:50:52.440 and getting to do craziest things like in one weekend 0:50:52.840 --> 0:50:54.640 we performed on Oprah and then went to the White 0:50:54.640 --> 0:50:55.880 House and hung out at the White House and then 0:50:55.880 --> 0:50:58.560 performed at the White House. Did it was like we 0:50:58.640 --> 0:51:01.560 would rather you did. I was there, you were there, 0:51:02.520 --> 0:51:04.919 We were doing insane things, and there were so many 0:51:05.000 --> 0:51:08.440 great things that we And the reason we're always going 0:51:08.480 --> 0:51:10.960 to be connected like this and so deeply is because 0:51:11.640 --> 0:51:14.440 only we only have each other to relate to end this, 0:51:14.920 --> 0:51:17.319 because nobody else went through this, and we all went 0:51:17.320 --> 0:51:20.600 through a very specific set of circumstances. And so I 0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:23.160 think that's also why we feel things so deeply with 0:51:23.200 --> 0:51:25.759 each other. Where the highs are high and the lows 0:51:25.760 --> 0:51:28.680 are low, is because like family, it's like, well, I 0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:31.319 have no one else to relate to on this, so 0:51:31.360 --> 0:51:33.920 like I, I either hate you or I love you, 0:51:34.080 --> 0:51:35.719 and I can say I hate you because I love you. 0:51:36.280 --> 0:51:40.520 And so it's sort of that high school drama that 0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:44.640 you know doesn't ever and unless you face a head 0:51:44.680 --> 0:51:48.400 on which you sort of spearheaded, that wasn't That was 0:51:48.440 --> 0:51:54.560 an interesting um switch for me at Also other things 0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:56.400 started to happen at that time, right, I mean, I 0:51:56.480 --> 0:51:58.839 think the thing for me is like that idea of 0:52:01.200 --> 0:52:05.040 being a part of a cultural phenomenon and sort of 0:52:05.080 --> 0:52:07.439 going so high that once you're so high, you can 0:52:07.480 --> 0:52:09.640 only come down, and the feeling coming down is not 0:52:09.760 --> 0:52:12.600 good for anybody. It doesn't feel good. And then the 0:52:12.640 --> 0:52:15.359 media starts to take, you know, shots at you and 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:18.279 punish you for the thing that they actually rewarded you 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:22.960 for identically six months before so. And then you did 0:52:22.960 --> 0:52:25.759 warn us of that, by the way, I distinctly, but 0:52:26.000 --> 0:52:28.760 I guess we were super young, but you did walk 0:52:28.840 --> 0:52:31.399 us through those things until it happens. It's sort of 0:52:32.280 --> 0:52:35.880 unbelievable theoretical. I think the thing that happened for me 0:52:36.120 --> 0:52:39.000 was there was a there was a turning point for 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:43.279 me where, um, I was in it. I was in it. 0:52:43.360 --> 0:52:46.000 I was and then you know that thing where you're 0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:48.279 like the gay kid, who, what do you mean? You're 0:52:48.280 --> 0:52:50.919 gonna make my dream horror show and green light that? Yes? 0:52:51.080 --> 0:52:52.880 What do you mean? I can go do the normal 0:52:52.920 --> 0:52:55.759 heart yes? Like I just was so thinking that I 0:52:55.760 --> 0:52:58.719 would never work again that I took the yeses and 0:52:58.760 --> 0:53:01.880 then I started to build this business that I've really enjoyed, 0:53:02.920 --> 0:53:05.880 and that kind of took me further out to see. 0:53:06.040 --> 0:53:09.160 And then I think you guys felt further estrange for 0:53:09.239 --> 0:53:12.239 me because physically I wasn't there creatively. Then you know, 0:53:12.280 --> 0:53:14.520 we added a writer's room and it became a bigger thing. 0:53:14.560 --> 0:53:18.719 And I think the thing that happened for me to 0:53:18.800 --> 0:53:21.320 be blunt was, you know, Corey died, and then after 0:53:21.520 --> 0:53:26.280 Corey's death and I had to plan a memorial service, 0:53:26.960 --> 0:53:28.920 I was like, I don't, I don't know how to 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:33.239 do this anymore. I can't, I don't know what to do. Um. 0:53:33.280 --> 0:53:35.839 And it was so painful and dark, and I think 0:53:35.840 --> 0:53:39.799 we all felt that. But you know, there was also 0:53:39.880 --> 0:53:42.440 a very large crew who had been with us from 0:53:42.480 --> 0:53:47.840 the beginning who was very little, yeah, just no turnover. 0:53:47.880 --> 0:53:50.000 It was a family, and people wanted to keep working, 0:53:50.040 --> 0:53:52.360 and well not everybody, there were a few that didn't, 0:53:52.440 --> 0:53:55.920 but UM, I just think that after that, I was 0:53:55.960 --> 0:53:58.160 sort of like Elvis has left the building. I think 0:53:58.200 --> 0:54:00.480 my spirit had gone out of it. And I was 0:54:00.520 --> 0:54:06.560 so devastated by his death, UM that I had to 0:54:06.600 --> 0:54:08.680 step away from my own mental health, even though I 0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:11.560 didn't call it mental health at the time. So it 0:54:11.640 --> 0:54:15.640 did become like this sort of thing where there was 0:54:15.680 --> 0:54:18.920 a lot of space between us. But then recently what 0:54:19.040 --> 0:54:21.319 has happened is we all, most of us got back 0:54:21.360 --> 0:54:25.160 together in a very adult good way and had adult conversations. 0:54:25.480 --> 0:54:28.799 You guys are adults now you're not kids, you know, 0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:30.640 And sort of that was a shift in all of 0:54:30.680 --> 0:54:34.560 your lives. You have partners, you have children, like um, 0:54:34.680 --> 0:54:40.520 you process it differently. And then now you know, Glee 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:44.880 is on Hulu, It's on Disney Plus, and every day 0:54:44.920 --> 0:54:47.160 there are people who reach out to me about my 0:54:47.320 --> 0:54:51.040 eight year old is watching this show. And these young 0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:54.560 people have no memory of it being in the media 0:54:54.560 --> 0:54:59.520 and a cultural phenomenon. They're just loving the musical experience 0:54:59.560 --> 0:55:01.400 of it. So that to me has been sort of 0:55:01.440 --> 0:55:05.360 reinvigorating and like, oh, the work lasted and the works 0:55:05.840 --> 0:55:09.440 tested the you know. And it's also hilarious to me 0:55:09.560 --> 0:55:11.319 some of the stuff that we did in those later 0:55:11.360 --> 0:55:15.360 seasons that were so mercilessly attacked by the press. Example, 0:55:16.160 --> 0:55:19.320 remember when we did those scenes with Sue as Jigsaw 0:55:20.360 --> 0:55:24.200 and and like the Puppet and Jane had the hurt Rocker. 0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:30.200 I believe that there were there were many columns written 0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:33.399 about that I should be killed for those scenes, but 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:38.160 now they are among the most beloved watched streamed like, 0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:41.879 so it's interesting, like everything comes still wrong, You're still 0:55:41.920 --> 0:55:49.600 wrong for what the Fox is Kevin and Style. Okay, 0:55:49.680 --> 0:55:51.799 let's talk about these two songs, which I have been 0:55:51.840 --> 0:55:54.360 a gang of style and what the Fox says. I 0:55:54.400 --> 0:55:56.560 would like you to put yourself in my little I 0:55:56.719 --> 0:56:01.360 understand why you did it? Understand Okay, twenty two episodes 0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:04.239 a year to fill. Right, So when you're doing it 0:56:04.320 --> 0:56:08.920 and you're like, well, what's that. That's what's at the 0:56:08.920 --> 0:56:14.279 top of the charts, like, um, yeah, And if you 0:56:14.280 --> 0:56:16.200 look at that show, you can also look at like 0:56:16.239 --> 0:56:18.800 what was popular and what was classic, like it was 0:56:18.840 --> 0:56:23.800 a weird mixture. And yes, I will say Gangham style 0:56:24.160 --> 0:56:27.080 not the best moment, but there was a reason why 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:29.600 it was only because it was so incredibly popular. And 0:56:29.719 --> 0:56:32.840 Glee in some regards, was like the jukebox musical of 0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:35.600 its day, the top of the pops. You could tune 0:56:35.600 --> 0:56:39.440 in to see what was totally popular. But I don't know, 0:56:40.960 --> 0:56:45.279 is that is that your least favorite number? Nay. I 0:56:45.320 --> 0:56:47.879 felt like I was the last one to break out 0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:52.760 of the cast, the last and that was my breaking 0:56:52.760 --> 0:56:59.600 point because I think I think it's because I don't 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:03.000 I don't know, but there was something about having puppets 0:57:03.600 --> 0:57:07.960 and doing that and doing that number or I it 0:57:08.040 --> 0:57:13.640 was just like what fever? Dream? What has happened? Dream? 0:57:13.800 --> 0:57:16.240 And there's an actual shot of me looking into the 0:57:16.280 --> 0:57:21.160 camera where I'm just like, I don't know. I think 0:57:21.200 --> 0:57:23.040 it was just because like, okay, am I allowed to break? 0:57:23.080 --> 0:57:25.640 Now everyone else has broken. It took a very long 0:57:25.680 --> 0:57:29.040 time for you. And this is my reaction. But I 0:57:29.080 --> 0:57:32.320 will say, do you remember, like, speaking of all the 0:57:32.360 --> 0:57:36.200 current music, people used to send you their music, like 0:57:36.240 --> 0:57:39.360 I remember Gaga sent you Born Born this Way album 0:57:39.400 --> 0:57:42.520 because Brad and you you guys walked back onto set 0:57:42.640 --> 0:57:45.760 and Brad was like, oh, yeah, we just Lady Gaga's 0:57:45.760 --> 0:57:49.480 people brought us over their music. Brad Falchuk the straightest 0:57:49.480 --> 0:57:53.560 man on earth talking about listening to Lady Gaga and 0:57:53.560 --> 0:57:55.240 I was like, oh my god, how was it like? 0:57:55.680 --> 0:57:57.680 And he was like, oh yeah, there's probably some hits 0:57:57.680 --> 0:58:01.160 on there. I'm like, where's Ryan? And so I knew 0:58:01.200 --> 0:58:04.080 exactly what the hits with ye like that was? That was? 0:58:04.320 --> 0:58:06.160 That was? You know, that was That was a very 0:58:06.240 --> 0:58:11.240 interesting period and again McCartney sent his music over. UM. 0:58:11.280 --> 0:58:15.560 I learned a lot from that period. Um. That was 0:58:15.600 --> 0:58:20.440 a weird period where when Glee became popular that we 0:58:20.520 --> 0:58:22.840 could reach out to any artist in the world, and 0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:28.880 they would pretty much say yes except a few yeah. 0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:31.400 But I also learned something like that from that, like 0:58:31.680 --> 0:58:34.120 you know that whole Kings of Leon thing when when 0:58:34.200 --> 0:58:36.240 that was the first rejection, I think, and I took 0:58:36.280 --> 0:58:39.360 it personally and I gave an interview with a lot 0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:41.760 of you briss in a really big head and and 0:58:41.800 --> 0:58:44.560 said really stupid things, And looking back on it, I 0:58:44.600 --> 0:58:47.840 feel like they were right, like you as an artist 0:58:47.920 --> 0:58:51.640 should be allowed to, you know, do with your music 0:58:51.720 --> 0:58:54.240 what you will. And I should never have said anything. 0:58:54.480 --> 0:58:56.880 I that was just the I learned a lot of 0:58:56.920 --> 0:58:59.320 life lessons and I was such a jerk in that interview. 0:58:59.560 --> 0:59:02.160 I don't know why I said some stupid thing about 0:59:02.280 --> 0:59:06.600 depriving America's children of Kings of Leam. I don't remember that, 0:59:07.160 --> 0:59:09.600 but it was. It was not good. Don't remember then 0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:14.360 they came out because I was devastated. I love you. 0:59:14.760 --> 0:59:18.680 I love that we were sitting in the same row 0:59:18.760 --> 0:59:22.160 as them at the Grammys. I was like, oh, I 0:59:22.240 --> 0:59:26.800 was like, this is embarrassing. I love you. I had 0:59:26.920 --> 0:59:29.440 I had that moment with Dave Grohl, who I really 0:59:29.560 --> 0:59:33.200 love as an artist, and he spoke out against that interview. 0:59:33.280 --> 0:59:35.440 I don't know if you recall saying, who is this 0:59:35.480 --> 0:59:38.680 guy saying something? And I was going to some another 0:59:38.800 --> 0:59:41.000 awful award show moment and he was in front of 0:59:41.000 --> 0:59:46.200 me and turned around and goes, oh, hi hi, He goes, 0:59:46.240 --> 0:59:48.480 It's all good. He was such a lovely guy. And 0:59:48.480 --> 0:59:51.560 he was such a lovely guy. But again, things that 0:59:51.600 --> 0:59:55.560 you learned, Like I never had any media training. I 0:59:56.080 --> 0:59:59.320 was just so thrilled to literally have Taylor Swift and 0:59:59.360 --> 1:00:04.000 Beyonce an Adele remember Adele Adele would talk about her 1:00:04.040 --> 1:00:07.640 love of Glee and her love of Amber and just 1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:11.400 like that was that was amazing, Like to be a 1:00:11.440 --> 1:00:15.280 part of those that experience with that level of artists, 1:00:15.600 --> 1:00:20.400 To have Stevie Nicks show up on set and send flowers, 1:00:20.440 --> 1:00:23.360 remember that huge flower arrangement she sent, that craft room 1:00:23.400 --> 1:00:26.160 we had, she gave, she talked to us in the 1:00:26.200 --> 1:00:30.840 Glee in the classroom, and she was It was just 1:00:30.880 --> 1:00:35.480 like that really great period where as a fan, you 1:00:35.520 --> 1:00:38.800 could say, or I could say, like I wanted to 1:00:38.880 --> 1:00:43.000 do songs and pay tribute to people that I loved, 1:00:43.480 --> 1:00:46.000 like Barbara Streisan. You know, I got to meet Barbara 1:00:46.040 --> 1:00:48.000 because of Glee and become friends with her. So it 1:00:48.080 --> 1:00:50.520 was like past and present, but it was it was. 1:00:50.560 --> 1:00:52.480 It was that show in the in the in the 1:00:52.600 --> 1:00:59.160 moment in time, was UM an indisputable force in terms 1:00:59.160 --> 1:01:02.320 of I was would say, you know, showcasing the love 1:01:02.360 --> 1:01:05.200 of music, and to me, that's what it really was about. 1:01:05.320 --> 1:01:08.240 It was about I love music. Music is something that 1:01:08.240 --> 1:01:12.880 brings people together. It's a great equalizer. I, you know, 1:01:13.000 --> 1:01:15.400 had the lead in every musical in high school. One 1:01:15.400 --> 1:01:17.960 of my great tragedies is that I did not become 1:01:18.000 --> 1:01:21.160 a pop music singer. What I really wanted to be 1:01:21.280 --> 1:01:23.640 was a pop music singer and or the editor in 1:01:23.720 --> 1:01:25.960 chief of Vogue, and I could not do either of them, 1:01:25.960 --> 1:01:28.560 which is why I'm doing what I'm doing. So we know, 1:01:28.640 --> 1:01:34.840 you can run a little bit. I can't actually, and 1:01:34.920 --> 1:01:42.560 by run we mean I only I only could do 1:01:42.600 --> 1:01:45.760 one thing. But it was just fun and UM that's 1:01:45.800 --> 1:01:51.400 the that's the joy of that show is UM. I 1:01:51.440 --> 1:01:53.640 think the love of music that even if you watch it, 1:01:53.720 --> 1:01:56.040 I think you can tell now because I went back 1:01:56.040 --> 1:01:57.920 in preparation for this and watch some of the old 1:01:57.960 --> 1:02:00.840 episodes and you can tell, like, oh, they really did 1:02:00.840 --> 1:02:02.720 love what they were doing and they really did have 1:02:02.800 --> 1:02:07.720 a great appreciation and admiration for these artists, and we 1:02:07.720 --> 1:02:10.800 were interpreting them in different ways and mashing things up, 1:02:10.840 --> 1:02:14.960 and it was all like love letters to me, except 1:02:15.040 --> 1:02:18.800 Gangham style not a love letter. Three am, what are 1:02:18.800 --> 1:02:20.200 we going to do in here? But I still love 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:25.200 that song I do. I'm sorry, I love it selfishly. 1:02:25.200 --> 1:02:28.560 I mean that K pop episode. I remember Brad turning 1:02:28.600 --> 1:02:30.440 to me. He's like, do you I heard you like 1:02:30.520 --> 1:02:32.400 K pop? I was like, I love K pop. He's like, 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:33.959 what can we put in the background of the scene. 1:02:34.000 --> 1:02:36.120 I'm like, I'll send you a whole list and I 1:02:36.160 --> 1:02:40.080 got my favorite K pop artists? You did? Yes, we're 1:02:40.160 --> 1:02:43.320 like rehearsing to to Big Bang, which was my favorite 1:02:43.320 --> 1:02:45.960 group at the time. But what season was this? What 1:02:46.000 --> 1:02:50.120 was this? No? God three or four must have been 1:02:50.200 --> 1:02:53.000 later um in the spirit of like artists and all 1:02:53.120 --> 1:02:56.000 these amazing people. What about the guest stars and and 1:02:56.000 --> 1:02:58.280 talk about the casting of the pilot as well, like 1:02:58.320 --> 1:03:01.880 were you pitched big name like and what made you 1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:08.560 decide to go with all of us little unknown? You know, well, 1:03:08.600 --> 1:03:14.400 that was a that was a wondrous, amazing um casting 1:03:14.440 --> 1:03:17.000 session that I've really only had once since, and that 1:03:17.040 --> 1:03:19.880 was with the cast of Pose. It was a very 1:03:19.960 --> 1:03:26.479 similar idea, which was, let's let's make stars. Let's there's 1:03:26.520 --> 1:03:30.439 so much talent out there, let's let's find people. When 1:03:30.480 --> 1:03:36.160 we were writing the the pilot, I've never really talked 1:03:36.160 --> 1:03:40.080 about this. That pilot was written for Justin Timber, Mr 1:03:40.200 --> 1:03:43.880 Shoe was written for Justice. Wait a second, hold up, 1:03:44.520 --> 1:03:48.560 this is actually brand new information. I think we need 1:03:48.600 --> 1:03:52.120 to pause and we'll we will talk about this next time. 1:03:52.600 --> 1:03:56.320 So come back next week to hear the second part 1:03:56.960 --> 1:04:00.320 of our almost three hour conversation with Ryan Murphy, because 1:04:00.520 --> 1:04:02.440 you don't want to miss it. It's just getting started.