Speaker 1: And that's what you really missed with Jenna and Kevin
Speaker 1: and I Heart radio podcast. We're back here. We are welcome. Oh,
Speaker 1: welcome to and that's what you really missed. You be
Speaker 1: rated us. You reached us on every social media platform.
Speaker 1: You would not leave us alone. No, and we tried
Speaker 1: to ignore it. It worked. Whatever you did worked. Thanks
Speaker 1: for Thanks for coming back, Thanks for making us come back.
Speaker 1: We're here with you, and we are we are excited
Speaker 1: to revisit this with new eyes. Yeah. I think two
Speaker 1: Eyes are very different from even two years ago. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so it's nice to pick this back up. And
Speaker 1: I think Jen and I have a plan for this
Speaker 1: for this version. We're going in depth. We're going to
Speaker 1: be very open. We're gonna we're not gonna sugarcoat. We're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about everything. Um and I think ultimately, Jenna,
Speaker 1: you and I talked about is that there was so
Speaker 1: much joy in the process of making Glee. Yes, obviously
Speaker 1: there are bad things and we will talk about them,
Speaker 1: but there was a lot of good and we want
Speaker 1: to explore that. We want to get into the details
Speaker 1: of the nitty gritty of different departments and who the
Speaker 1: show have impacted and affected and so going into this
Speaker 1: first episode and to relaunching this whole thing, we were
Speaker 1: talking about who could we have, Well, we figured we'd
Speaker 1: start at the top, right who who better than the man,
Speaker 1: the myth, the legend himself, Ryan Murphy. Ryan Murphy, Honestly,
Speaker 1: I feel like there was a reckoning in the last
Speaker 1: two years in the best way possible. Um, what you've
Speaker 1: seen in the media, what you've seen is just a
Speaker 1: snippet of all of them, of the madness that went
Speaker 1: on around Glee. But there's so much good and there
Speaker 1: was so much joy and this thing was, honestly, at
Speaker 1: least the first couple of years, was made with so
Speaker 1: much love and UM, I'm just really excited to share
Speaker 1: that with you guys. And I feel like we've we've
Speaker 1: had this, you know, open conversation with Ryan Murphy over
Speaker 1: the last two years as well, and with all of that,
Speaker 1: I think everybody's going to this with a new perspective
Speaker 1: of some sort and and that's why we're doing this
Speaker 1: and who better to kick it off. We just talk
Speaker 1: to Ryan for almost three hours. He was so great, open,
Speaker 1: an honest conversation, and we learned a lot of things
Speaker 1: we never knew about behind the scenes. We asked a
Speaker 1: lot of things, we had questions about that we we
Speaker 1: have been dying to ask um that we may never
Speaker 1: get those answers again. So and he was not shying
Speaker 1: away from and and everything. Buckle up. We hope you
Speaker 1: enjoy this. We sure did. We learned a lot and
Speaker 1: here's our kickoff episode. Enjoy our conversation with Ryan Murphy.
Speaker 1: Let's start at the very beginning, Ryan Murphy. For the people, everybody,
Speaker 1: this is why old people right, this is Ryan Show today.
Speaker 1: Seeing as we have you, we're not going to let
Speaker 1: you go until we go through everything. And you signed
Speaker 1: off on that I did. I sort of told you both, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I've never really talked about Glee or the
Speaker 1: making of Glee, and you know, for all of us,
Speaker 1: I think it was the beginning of a lot of things,
Speaker 1: the end of a lot of things. And I thought,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just going to talk about all
Speaker 1: of it and say an answer anything that's asked me,
Speaker 1: and then this is going to be like a really
Speaker 1: intense therapy session. So I have my clean xbox nearby,
Speaker 1: and already your ugs on, you're on a couch, my
Speaker 1: egs on. I'm on a couch. I decided to treat
Speaker 1: this like a psychological experiment, and we've all taken and
Speaker 1: we're ready. We're ready to dive deep. I'm ready to
Speaker 1: deep dive and answer any arcane. There's no question too
Speaker 1: small or too big. I think we all need this
Speaker 1: for some reason. Glee happened over fifteen years ago, and
Speaker 1: it keeps coming back and people won't let it die.
Speaker 1: So let's just do it this. We're bringing it. Let's
Speaker 1: let's go at the very beginning, very beginning. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think so two thousand seven or two thousand eight, Niptuck
Speaker 1: was in the throes of success, still in the air. Um,
Speaker 1: you remember you did a pilot called Pretty Handsome with
Speaker 1: John Grof and you carry and Moss. Yeah, you showed us,
Speaker 1: I showed you, guys, and that pilot didn't go didn't
Speaker 1: go forward. How did you go from What was this
Speaker 1: process like? Because the story we you heard was you
Speaker 1: met someone at a gym and got handed a script
Speaker 1: and eventually that turned into Glee. But what was your
Speaker 1: experience of how did Glee happen coming off of Pretty
Speaker 1: Handsome and Niptuck still being on the air. Mm hmm,
Speaker 1: it was it was always a great It's a great
Speaker 1: lesson that I always tell people, particularly young people, like
Speaker 1: every crushing no leads to the ultimate, bigger yes. And
Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened in the case of Glee. So
Speaker 1: I had this big, shiny hit called Niptuck. And when
Speaker 1: you have a hit like that, you know pretty much
Speaker 1: the next thing that you do, particularly if you're doing
Speaker 1: it for the same network, they will say, Okay, great,
Speaker 1: let's do that. So I put my heart into this
Speaker 1: show called Pretty Handsome with Joseph Findes. It was actually
Speaker 1: the first time I think Jonathan Groff had ever been
Speaker 1: before a camera, as I remember, and I remember saying like,
Speaker 1: you can't look into the lens, like that's the rule
Speaker 1: number one. And he was so charming and was you know,
Speaker 1: the typical Johnny fashioned like Olivier and Take one. And
Speaker 1: so I did it. It was it was very much
Speaker 1: like Transparent. It was it was like ten years before Transparent,
Speaker 1: and we all loved it and thought it was great.
Speaker 1: It was about um, a male guyd of collegist who
Speaker 1: realize that he's a woman and Dot Marie Jones was
Speaker 1: in it, and you know, it was just an amazing
Speaker 1: cast and they called me up and they said, we
Speaker 1: love this, we think it's one of the best things
Speaker 1: that we've ever seen. We cannot sell advertising for it.
Speaker 1: The advertiser advertisers have already told us no, and we
Speaker 1: can't put it on the air. And I was really
Speaker 1: really upset, and I think I took to my bed
Speaker 1: for two weeks. And right at the same time, I
Speaker 1: had started an overall deal at Fox with Dana Walden,
Speaker 1: who has gone on to be my big mentor and champion,
Speaker 1: and she made me have a dinner where her and
Speaker 1: she said, you can't be depressed about this. You just
Speaker 1: have to keep going on and you have to challenge yourself.
Speaker 1: And she said, what have you always wanted to do
Speaker 1: that you've never done? And I said, well, I've always
Speaker 1: wanted to do a musical. And she paused and she said, well,
Speaker 1: that's not gonna work because there's never been a musical
Speaker 1: that worked on television like there was famously this Stephen
Speaker 1: Boco show called cop Rock, and then there was a
Speaker 1: Melanie Griffith show around that time. I think it was
Speaker 1: set in Las Vegas that was people singing, but it
Speaker 1: didn't work. And I said, well, what if we do
Speaker 1: a musical that goes on sometime after American Idol or
Speaker 1: before American Idol, because that which was the biggest, biggest
Speaker 1: show in the world. So while we were having these
Speaker 1: conversations and I was trying to figure it out, like serendipity,
Speaker 1: I went to the gym and I was in a
Speaker 1: towel and a guy came up, Mike Novec came up
Speaker 1: and handed me the script and he said said, I
Speaker 1: have a feeling you were in show choir. Am I right?
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, I guess I've got a
Speaker 1: huge gay face in a towel in a gym, and
Speaker 1: I said I was. And he said, my friend wrote
Speaker 1: the script and you should read it, and he gave
Speaker 1: it to me, and I didn't read it for a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks while Dana and I were continually trying
Speaker 1: to talk about, well, what is the musical to crack like,
Speaker 1: what is it? At one point it was going to
Speaker 1: be a draculum musical that would have gone over real great.
Speaker 1: And so then I finally read Ian script on a plane,
Speaker 1: and in Ian's original script, it was a very dark
Speaker 1: comedy that had kind of the idea of it, and
Speaker 1: Ian and I were both in quired and Mr Shoe
Speaker 1: I believe as a crystal meth addict in Ian's script,
Speaker 1: so I like doing was he like touching the children?
Speaker 1: It was it was like a very dark dark It
Speaker 1: was sort of like election, remember that Reese Wather's election,
Speaker 1: but like the NC seventeen version of show Choir with
Speaker 1: like a weird protagonist who is unraveling. And as soon
Speaker 1: as I read it, I was like, Okay, well this
Speaker 1: is it, and I said what if we? Because what
Speaker 1: I loved was the idea of um kids in high school.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I have since learned
Speaker 1: in um my career is it it seems like shows
Speaker 1: that work or TV experiences that work very often feature
Speaker 1: people going through quote unquote first times, first kiss, first loss,
Speaker 1: first singing, singing experience, on and on and on. So
Speaker 1: I kind of instinctively wanted to do something about first
Speaker 1: and I wanted to do something after my transsexual show
Speaker 1: didn't go that was the opposite of that. Like I
Speaker 1: wanted something very very poppy and primary colors and blue
Speaker 1: sky and not dark. I had done Niptuck and I
Speaker 1: had done pretty handsome, and I was like, I just
Speaker 1: need to do something optimistic, and so I convinced Ian
Speaker 1: to work on a draft that sort of leaned into
Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and we presented it to Dana
Speaker 1: and she actually liked it and she said, I think
Speaker 1: that this could actually work. So she was the first
Speaker 1: champion of it, just as the idea UM. And then
Speaker 1: we started writing that and it sort of took six
Speaker 1: months to write it, and we wrote it, and then
Speaker 1: the interesting thing was we turned it in and Kevin Riley,
Speaker 1: who was had hired me at f f X and
Speaker 1: was now running Fox with Peter Lagory, said I love
Speaker 1: this pilot. It's weird, it'll probably never go It has
Speaker 1: one huge problem, and knowing you, I'm shocked and disappointed
Speaker 1: in you. And I said, oh my god, what And
Speaker 1: he goes, there's no bad person in here, like all
Speaker 1: these people are nice and optimistic, and he goes, there's
Speaker 1: no one to hate, and I said, you're right, And
Speaker 1: then Ian and I talked and within fifteen minutes, I said,
Speaker 1: I know what it is. It's a horrible cheerleading coach
Speaker 1: like Jane Jane Lynch type person. And I had worked
Speaker 1: with Jane before UM, but we kept calling her Jane
Speaker 1: Lynch like so that's then we put Cecil Vester into
Speaker 1: the pilot script and if you notice going back that
Speaker 1: character is not in it a lot um and and
Speaker 1: and that's why because we just had to put it
Speaker 1: in there to get it green lead. And then Kevin
Speaker 1: was like, eureka, you've done it. So then it got
Speaker 1: we got it picked up and we were off to
Speaker 1: the races. But it was a very interesting, bizarre way
Speaker 1: to make something. What's I remember you when you would
Speaker 1: sort of tell us like the short version of that
Speaker 1: story back in the day when you like I walked
Speaker 1: into Fox and they were like, okay, sure, go for it.
Speaker 1: Was like, who in the right mind would be like, yeah, um,
Speaker 1: you this TV person who has created all these dark
Speaker 1: shows and this pilot that we love that we can't
Speaker 1: actually green light. We want you to go for this
Speaker 1: thing that's probably the hardest thing to get success with.
Speaker 1: And they were like, yeah, go for it. On multiple levels, well,
Speaker 1: like do you feel like you were out of your
Speaker 1: element or in your element? Because we always kept like
Speaker 1: when we were doing press after the pilot, everybody was like,
Speaker 1: this is so not Ryan Murphy. This is this is
Speaker 1: the opposite of what Ryan Murphy does. Like, do you
Speaker 1: feel like you are in or out of your element
Speaker 1: creating this show. I really felt like I was in
Speaker 1: my element because you know, I had kind of lived
Speaker 1: that show in a weird way, because there were parts
Speaker 1: of me in all of the regular parts, you know,
Speaker 1: the small group of regulars. Then it became like you know,
Speaker 1: Night of a Thousand Stars eventually, but they were like
Speaker 1: five key part and I think there was a lot
Speaker 1: of me in all of those parts, because you know,
Speaker 1: Ian and I had really were working on the just
Speaker 1: the ideas of it, and I felt very personal to
Speaker 1: all of them, you know. Um, And you know, I
Speaker 1: started this business writing Popular, which was a very also
Speaker 1: a high school show that was a comedy. But then
Speaker 1: I became the prince of Darkness. And I think that
Speaker 1: what the town does is that you are your last hit, right,
Speaker 1: so then you're suddenly that thing. And I never thought
Speaker 1: it was true. And it was a very interesting time
Speaker 1: in the life of show business in Hollywood because if
Speaker 1: you look back at it now, you know, really the
Speaker 1: two biggest champions of Glee, we're Dana Walden and Jen Sulky.
Speaker 1: Jen has gone on to run Amazon, and these two
Speaker 1: powerhouses were the ones I wouldn't say they were battling
Speaker 1: the guys, because the guys, you know, Kevin Riley and
Speaker 1: and Peter Rice and Peter Legory were always interested in it.
Speaker 1: But it was a very interesting, long battle. But for
Speaker 1: some there was something about it that as soon as
Speaker 1: we made it, I just knew that it was special,
Speaker 1: and I kept just saying to everybody, just get it
Speaker 1: on the air, and if it gets on the air,
Speaker 1: I know it's gonna work. So you know, when you
Speaker 1: that was back when there was such a thing as
Speaker 1: pilot season. So we made the pilot and we turned
Speaker 1: it in and you had to do things called test screeners.
Speaker 1: So we took Glee, Dane and I in Jen and
Speaker 1: we went to some place in Studio City with a
Speaker 1: test audience and we showed it to them, and I
Speaker 1: think it literally got the worst scores in the history
Speaker 1: of the bombed. It was just like complete bomb And
Speaker 1: the thing that at the end of it um the
Speaker 1: people didn't realize it was a musical, so they kept
Speaker 1: there was like checked which category or you best, how
Speaker 1: you would market this show? And they not a single
Speaker 1: person and there were thirty six people in that room
Speaker 1: thought that it was a musical. Um, so they one
Speaker 1: person a lot of people thought it was a satire
Speaker 1: and they would they wrote that, which it kind of was. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So then there was the powerful person in the world
Speaker 1: who really didn't understand it, and there was you know,
Speaker 1: back then there all these different levels of programmers. There
Speaker 1: was also a lot of I'll just say it, there
Speaker 1: was a lot of homophobic fear about this show. Um.
Speaker 1: There was one very powerful person within the corporation who
Speaker 1: would repeatedly at screenings of it when they were showing
Speaker 1: it before it was picked up, who kept calling it
Speaker 1: the fag show, which made everybody in the executives who
Speaker 1: had championed it furious. And that was back in the
Speaker 1: day where you could say this in a room full
Speaker 1: of people and nobody would bat an eye, especially you
Speaker 1: were super super powerful, super powerful in your doctors, you know,
Speaker 1: standing there and that you know, like this person also
Speaker 1: came up to me a different no matter. It was
Speaker 1: just hilarious. Like it was one of those things where
Speaker 1: there were like really five people who believed in it.
Speaker 1: And then there was Joe Early, who did the marketing
Speaker 1: of it, instantly got what it was. He was the
Speaker 1: one who working with me came up with the color
Speaker 1: scape of the yellows and the reds and all of
Speaker 1: you guys doing the l's on your head. It was
Speaker 1: very simple, and we worked, Joe and I worked a
Speaker 1: lot on that concept. But the thing about it that
Speaker 1: was great is is it had all these guardian angels.
Speaker 1: It had Dana first and foremost, who after that disastrous
Speaker 1: test screating took me out for a drink and she said,
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't care. I don't care what
Speaker 1: they think they're wrong. What version was the test? Was
Speaker 1: it the one that actually aired? No, the version of
Speaker 1: the test had the infamous long Um disco dancing segment
Speaker 1: with Mr She was a child Um. And I will say, like,
Speaker 1: after that disastrous screening, the good thing about that screening
Speaker 1: was it sort of made everybody put on there, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: how do we convince people that this is a mainstream concept? Um?
Speaker 1: And it was. The idea was if you take that
Speaker 1: out and get right to you know, because that was
Speaker 1: polarizing because the costumes were like based on Copacabana. It
Speaker 1: was very very odd and so that that was the
Speaker 1: first thing to go, and not much after that, and
Speaker 1: once that we lifted that out I think it's since
Speaker 1: been seen in like DVD cuts and things like that.
Speaker 1: Um we um, yeah, we we took that out and
Speaker 1: then um people were more comed rble with it. And
Speaker 1: then we didn't make any changes at all. And then
Speaker 1: the interesting thing was, I don't know if it was
Speaker 1: based on my relationships, I think so. Um. And also
Speaker 1: just because the like Dana and gen and and everybody
Speaker 1: had been the ringer through it, we got like the
Speaker 1: first thirteen ordered and that was a magical thing because
Speaker 1: you know, we got to make those first the first
Speaker 1: thirteen episodes, no one had seen it, no one had
Speaker 1: watched it, and we were on the paramount lots. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we were making it in a real bubble and it
Speaker 1: was the only thing I was working on the Pray
Speaker 1: Love with Julia Roberts at the time. But you know,
Speaker 1: it was very, very singular. I don't even remember how
Speaker 1: many of those did I direct three of the thirteen?
Speaker 1: I think, um, maybe three or four. But I was
Speaker 1: I just remember making it and not really caring if
Speaker 1: it was going to be a hit or a bomb,
Speaker 1: because I knew that the first third Team would get
Speaker 1: on the air, and I thought, well, maybe this is
Speaker 1: gonna be like a Freaks and Geeks thing where you know,
Speaker 1: the third teen will air and then it will be canceled,
Speaker 1: but people will look back on it. Finally, because I
Speaker 1: knew that it would mean something to anybody who had
Speaker 1: been in show choir. Yeah, what were your expectations? None? None,
Speaker 1: and you know, there was it. My expectation was actually
Speaker 1: when we aired the pilot, it aired in May, I think,
Speaker 1: right around the American Idolphin. It was right after the
Speaker 1: season finale American, and I thought, just I don't know
Speaker 1: how this is gonna do. And it did. And I
Speaker 1: remember the next morning and there was that you know,
Speaker 1: back then it's just not that long ago, but so
Speaker 1: long ago, you know, you'd get the call. Well it did, okay,
Speaker 1: it didn't do great, you know, but we still love you.
Speaker 1: We hope that you don't look at this as discouraging.
Speaker 1: It's it's okay and you got your being seen and yeah,
Speaker 1: so it was sort of I always thought it was
Speaker 1: gonna be like that, Like I thought it was gonna
Speaker 1: be niche, because you know, I had gone through niche
Speaker 1: before with Popular, you know, which aired for two seasons
Speaker 1: and had a very small loyal old audience. Back then,
Speaker 1: we would call it CULTI, but you look at the
Speaker 1: ratings for those shows that are culty. Those ratings existed today.
Speaker 1: Popular was more would be like Game of Thrones, like
Speaker 1: more and more people were just watching television, and the
Speaker 1: ratings were so high compared to now. So I think
Speaker 1: I remember it the pilot aired, I got on a
Speaker 1: plane and flew to Bali, right, and I just thought, well,
Speaker 1: that's what it's gonna be. It's gonna air in the fall,
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be something that we loved making and
Speaker 1: we were all proud of, and it's just gonna kind
Speaker 1: of be a culty thing and that's that. And I
Speaker 1: had no expectation for the back seven episodes, although I
Speaker 1: had things in mind, and I knew that if it
Speaker 1: did get picked up, I was going to do a
Speaker 1: Madonna episode and that was going to be my big
Speaker 1: swan song. I'd come here to do what I was
Speaker 1: gonna do. So I had no exactly and I had
Speaker 1: no plans other than that. And I don't know how
Speaker 1: you guys felt. I remember the last day of shooting.
Speaker 1: I remember getting the cast together and saying something because
Speaker 1: I had a really bad experience with the with the
Speaker 1: niptuck ending, you know, and going through something that burned
Speaker 1: really bright, and then everybody kind of falling apart, and
Speaker 1: I remember giving a speech about staying close and being
Speaker 1: in it for the work. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: remember that. I believe. I believe I cried that a
Speaker 1: couple of times. God help. But you know what I
Speaker 1: really remember about that time was, you know, even you're
Speaker 1: you're saying that I showed you guys the pretty handsome pilot,
Speaker 1: Like there were some time where, you know, almost all
Speaker 1: of the cast was known in certain circles, Broadway circles, Jenna,
Speaker 1: certainly Kevin from your musical background, but nobody really knew
Speaker 1: a lot about the cast. And we spent every day together.
Speaker 1: We had weekends together. I mean, I would bring you
Speaker 1: guys into this little black room that was the size
Speaker 1: of a closet, like thirteen of you, and I would
Speaker 1: screen rough cuts just so that you would get excited
Speaker 1: and people would be cheering everybody else's musical numbers. And
Speaker 1: it was a very it was a very wonderful. You know,
Speaker 1: I was single at the time. I had not you know,
Speaker 1: but also Glee led me to my marriage, which is
Speaker 1: another story. But yeah, it was like it was my life.
Speaker 1: It was Julia Robertson, you guys and munt and we
Speaker 1: were all we all that the stupidest things I could
Speaker 1: possibly imagine. Stop talking now. Kevin and I remember we
Speaker 1: talked about this a lot, like we spent It was
Speaker 1: very much a bubble. The world hadn't seen the show yet.
Speaker 1: We didn't know what it was going to be. Our
Speaker 1: expectations were non um. In the middle of it, the
Speaker 1: pilot airs and it does well, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: there's these commercials of Glee was watched by fifteen million
Speaker 1: people and the song's number one on iTunes. Were like,
Speaker 1: we did the mall to this hot topic mall tour
Speaker 1: or you know, like the thing that I'm glad that
Speaker 1: you remember the headlines is being good because I remember
Speaker 1: those headlines as well. They got fifteen million viewers, but
Speaker 1: that's only because people who were watching American Idol forgot
Speaker 1: to turn on the channel, So it's not a thing.
Speaker 1: I remember thinking that because I was always sort of
Speaker 1: the numbers guy, were like the cast. I would always
Speaker 1: report back to the cast like what our ratings and
Speaker 1: music were doing, and I remember being like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: they're like, really milking this. We don't really know yet,
Speaker 1: but we are. In every department, I think it wasn't
Speaker 1: just us, It wasn't just you. In every department, the crew, production,
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, everyone felt the same thing, where no
Speaker 1: one talked about if it was going to be successful
Speaker 1: or not. We were just having the time of our lives.
Speaker 1: We'd show up, we'd make the crew laugh, we'd have
Speaker 1: to do these crazy musical numbers with the incredible Andrew
Speaker 1: Mitchell and Steadycam and it was everyone just felt was
Speaker 1: all in on making this thing work, that we you
Speaker 1: were creating the formula as it was happening, and we
Speaker 1: were all just sort of like, I don't know what
Speaker 1: this is going to be. I don't know who this
Speaker 1: is for, but we love it. It felt like it
Speaker 1: was for us, and you know, it felt like you
Speaker 1: were also you were very hands on with us from
Speaker 1: the very beginning, where you gave us I don't know,
Speaker 1: I think three or four speeches like the one you
Speaker 1: talked about where and you did explain sort of vaguely
Speaker 1: about coming off of this Niptuck experience where you wanted
Speaker 1: to make sure that you handled this in a way
Speaker 1: that you felt was better or healthier or a more
Speaker 1: correct way to deal with the cast. And I think
Speaker 1: because we were young and completely unknown and I don't
Speaker 1: know us completely green, that you would talk us through,
Speaker 1: like gently, sort of hold our hands through if their success,
Speaker 1: if we're lucky enough to have any success, this is
Speaker 1: sort of what will happen, and if it does happen,
Speaker 1: this is how we should handle it together as a group.
Speaker 1: And then when we did start to build momentum and
Speaker 1: get success, you would sort of check in and be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's where we are. This is very rare air and
Speaker 1: this may never happen again. Yeah, like this is And
Speaker 1: that was for you, that was for us, that was
Speaker 1: for everyone. And I remember I feel like had you
Speaker 1: not been there with the foresight to sort of talk
Speaker 1: us through that you had been running shows before, but
Speaker 1: you also didn't know at the time you were about
Speaker 1: to be running this billion dollar business, so you didn't
Speaker 1: know either. I knew nothing. Yeah, you know how to
Speaker 1: run a successful show that was had a core fan
Speaker 1: base and was getting picked up, and that's what you
Speaker 1: were concerned about for us, which was I think very helpful.
Speaker 1: But then it sort of exploded into this yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. It was a I would say it was
Speaker 1: like the best of times the worst of times for me.
Speaker 1: The thing that I was very aware of was, Okay,
Speaker 1: I hope this is a TV show that's like loved
Speaker 1: and you know, along the lines of my so called
Speaker 1: life at best. So I had only had really one
Speaker 1: hit at that point, and it, let me tell you,
Speaker 1: it was a cable hit, and so it was not
Speaker 1: like it was not it was a smaller, utra ultra hit.
Speaker 1: And then to go from being like, okay, you're a
Speaker 1: showrunner to your the manager of a billion dollar brand
Speaker 1: literally within a month, because what happened was the show
Speaker 1: I was in Italy shooting with Julia when the shows
Speaker 1: that we had had in the can started to shoot
Speaker 1: started to air in September, and it was one of
Speaker 1: those things where it came on and with every episode
Speaker 1: it built and built and built, until I think by
Speaker 1: episode three, when Kristin Chenowith came on the show, it
Speaker 1: had just become a phenomenon that sometimes you see like
Speaker 1: something just explodes out of the gate and then it's there.
Speaker 1: So I was getting all of these calls from executive saying,
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's doubled in the ratings, It's tripled
Speaker 1: in the ratings. That that that, that that that, and
Speaker 1: then the Fall Award nominations came out, and then the
Speaker 1: music started to become it literally its own industry, and
Speaker 1: I had that was overwhelming for me because you know,
Speaker 1: pretty much for the first three years, any song that
Speaker 1: was on Glee I handpicked, and it was because I
Speaker 1: loved the song and I could sing it in car
Speaker 1: like it was just like I would have CDs mixtapes
Speaker 1: of things like. It was just I was a fan.
Speaker 1: The show was about being a fan and a love
Speaker 1: of pop music and Broadway music and classic rock yeah
Speaker 1: who yeah, And a lot of that was Brad stuff.
Speaker 1: You know, Brad was interested in the Springsteen stuff and
Speaker 1: the Speedwagon stuff and um yeah, it was what was
Speaker 1: interesting about it was so then it became suddenly like, Okay,
Speaker 1: now you have a show that I believe, by the
Speaker 1: time it hit the spring was the number one show
Speaker 1: in the world. Then you had this other component, which
Speaker 1: is the music, which for a long time, the record
Speaker 1: held where the Glee cast was, you know, the number
Speaker 1: one recording artist in the world. I think it held
Speaker 1: until last year until Drake snatched it away with his
Speaker 1: Canadian hands. You know, I love that drink. He also
Speaker 1: played a wheelchair bound student in a high school show. Yes,
Speaker 1: he did can Then we did that, and then of
Speaker 1: course it was that thing that happened, which in hindsight
Speaker 1: was probably a mistake, which was let's go on tour,
Speaker 1: because what happened the first season we had fun doing
Speaker 1: the little you know, the radio city music hall thing
Speaker 1: that felt like that at that that aren't that. It
Speaker 1: was silly and crazy. But then to go and then
Speaker 1: you guys became like little Taylor Swifts like that became
Speaker 1: this thing and it just was it was. I was
Speaker 1: very overwhelmed by the three headed hydra element of it
Speaker 1: because again I knew nothing, and I had never had
Speaker 1: any experience doing this, right, I had never had any
Speaker 1: experience of running something on this level. Yep. I mean
Speaker 1: there's no training for that unless you've actually done it before.
Speaker 1: There's no school, like, here are the things you need
Speaker 1: to know when you're running a billion dollar business that
Speaker 1: is TV and music and touring. Well, this is the
Speaker 1: This is the thing that's very I think up about Hollywood,
Speaker 1: right is you can be a person who is writing
Speaker 1: a script you are sitting in a room by yourself
Speaker 1: with your Starbucks and a sad, broken down laptop. You
Speaker 1: can write something, you can turn it in, and then
Speaker 1: you can have a corporation say here's a billion dollars,
Speaker 1: go have fun. And you're like, I don't know how
Speaker 1: to hire people. I don't know how to manage people.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to how am I supposed to
Speaker 1: do all this while working on the creative element of
Speaker 1: the show. It's truly like, you still have to turn
Speaker 1: in two episodes back then, yeah, twenty two, and the
Speaker 1: three of you wrote those yes to all together, yes
Speaker 1: for the first two seasons. Yes, So it was It's
Speaker 1: just I wish that there was some for to sort
Speaker 1: of formal training on how to be a showrunner. And
Speaker 1: you weren't given the keys to the kingdom unless you
Speaker 1: learned how to not just manage your time, not just
Speaker 1: manage other people, but also how to manage your own
Speaker 1: mental health. Because I don't know any CEO in the
Speaker 1: world who becomes CEO without like at least ten years
Speaker 1: of training. So it's absolutely insane to be able to
Speaker 1: you know, manage something, let alone a cultural phenomenon. It
Speaker 1: was very, very very difficult for me, and I remember
Speaker 1: feeling like I failed a lot, and I did fail
Speaker 1: a lot, and I have, you know, regrets about that
Speaker 1: about I shouldn't have done a lot of those things.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have agreed to a lot of those things.
Speaker 1: But at the same point, I'll never forget that opening
Speaker 1: night at Staples Center. It was insane. It was like, well, who, like, okay,
Speaker 1: check that up the bucket list. But there was a
Speaker 1: cost to that, you know, there was I can't even imagine,
Speaker 1: and I mean I do imagine, but like for you
Speaker 1: guys having to not just do twenty two episodes a
Speaker 1: year of a one hour but recorded the musical numbers
Speaker 1: while in choreography between takes. I mean, thank god you
Speaker 1: were all so young. But it was but you know,
Speaker 1: back then and there was no conversation about mental health.
Speaker 1: There was no conversation about, um, none of that stuff.
Speaker 1: We want to we really want to dive into that
Speaker 1: on this podcast too, about you know, like taking care
Speaker 1: of yourself and what and how Hollywood does generate this
Speaker 1: like go go go kind of hustle culture that um,
Speaker 1: you you really do have to look out for yourself
Speaker 1: and some people don't even know how to um. And
Speaker 1: I think for us it was like over everything was
Speaker 1: so overnight for you. For us, like this was all
Speaker 1: brand new territory and we didn't know how to We
Speaker 1: couldn't say no, We didn't know how to say no.
Speaker 1: In a way, that's how I felt. I could not
Speaker 1: say no because you know, for what, it's so hard
Speaker 1: to get a job. You finally get a job, you
Speaker 1: get hired on the show, and then it's successful, and
Speaker 1: then on top of that, it's it means a lot
Speaker 1: to people, you know, like you hope to get a job,
Speaker 1: and you hope the check clears and you get to
Speaker 1: keep going back every day. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: we're now you know, hearing from people like what you
Speaker 1: hope for the show, it did find his audience and
Speaker 1: it was a lot bigger than you ever could have imagined.
Speaker 1: And it's like, I think we come from the world
Speaker 1: of especially the theater world with Jenna and Leah, where
Speaker 1: it's like you just put your head down and work
Speaker 1: that you say thank you and you go full out
Speaker 1: whenever you're asked to work. And so I had the
Speaker 1: same experience and the only gauge I had that we
Speaker 1: were probably doing more than what was normal. Was sort
Speaker 1: of from the crew. They're like, anything you do after
Speaker 1: this is going to be easier. You know, I do
Speaker 1: want to win in one thing that I just said,
Speaker 1: because I was thinking about it about you know, the
Speaker 1: truth of the matter is I did say yes that
Speaker 1: the responsibility is on me. And I'll tell you why
Speaker 1: I said yes to all of these things because when
Speaker 1: I first started off in the business, you know, it
Speaker 1: was a gay guy. I would go to meetings with
Speaker 1: executives and some of them would literally imitate my voice
Speaker 1: like it was rough. It was really really hard, and
Speaker 1: I thought, I'm never going to be a success. I'm
Speaker 1: never going to get a job. My show was canceled
Speaker 1: the first two seasons after popular. After that, I struggled.
Speaker 1: So I knew what it was like to have a
Speaker 1: weird sensibility and to not work. So once you get
Speaker 1: a green light and you're driving a very fast car,
Speaker 1: if the next light is a green light, it's human
Speaker 1: nature to go through the green light, to take the
Speaker 1: yes because it may never come back again. And of
Speaker 1: course I've since realized that that's probably was not the
Speaker 1: way to be, but just for my own life, I
Speaker 1: was like, well, this could be the end. So the
Speaker 1: only time I ever said no was in the middle
Speaker 1: of the third season. They really did want to do
Speaker 1: a Darren Chris Dalton Warbler's spinoff, and I said, I
Speaker 1: don't think that's I don't think I think. Wow, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we we were talking about doing a Warbler spinoff, and
Speaker 1: I said, I just I don't have the bandwidth. I
Speaker 1: can't do it. And I should have done it. Actually,
Speaker 1: looking back on it, what I wouldn't kill to have
Speaker 1: done that show because it would have been great. Um,
Speaker 1: it would have been and it would have solved a
Speaker 1: lot of other problems. But I yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: just would like to emphasize again, and I've said this
Speaker 1: to you. You know, we had a really an interesting
Speaker 1: thing that happened in my life when Naya passed away.
Speaker 1: It was a moment where all of us were kind
Speaker 1: of brought back together for a while in grief, and
Speaker 1: we finally all got to say, you know what I
Speaker 1: really think of you, and you know what I really
Speaker 1: think you did, and you know how I really felt
Speaker 1: about that experience. And it was really interesting for me
Speaker 1: to hear the truth that you guys had, which was,
Speaker 1: you know, we had started it in such a tight,
Speaker 1: loving way. And then as it went on and it
Speaker 1: became bigger, I sort of felt like I just became
Speaker 1: so overwhelmed by the business aspect of it that I
Speaker 1: became almost like an absentee father who shows up at
Speaker 1: the end of the day and pats the kids. And
Speaker 1: I had no idea to think that. You guys were like,
Speaker 1: where did dad go? Why? What? Where did you go?
Speaker 1: And where I was at was I was in meetings
Speaker 1: looking at glee merch, trying to pick the right color
Speaker 1: of blue, or planning the tour, or dealing with the
Speaker 1: ratings or right the awards. Yes, it was. It was,
Speaker 1: And it was interesting to go through that experience with
Speaker 1: you guys not so long ago, to sort of sit
Speaker 1: and be like, huh, yeah, I kind of that up.
Speaker 1: And I wish I had been more present. I wish
Speaker 1: I had known. I wish I had known how to
Speaker 1: be um a proper parent like I did not know.
Speaker 1: I was making it up as I was going along.
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing about that whole experience was that
Speaker 1: it really did prepare me for parenting. It taught me
Speaker 1: a lot about how to be with young people, what
Speaker 1: to do and what not to do and also more importantly,
Speaker 1: like the most important thing is the human connection, and um, yeah,
Speaker 1: all the other stuff doesn't matter, like the tour should
Speaker 1: should not have mattered. And I wish I had just
Speaker 1: sat my ass on that set and enjoyed the experience
Speaker 1: and was there just because I remember sometimes when I
Speaker 1: would show up later and waft in in my black
Speaker 1: vampire outfits just sit there that you know, like I
Speaker 1: remember just like you guys would look at me like
Speaker 1: mm hmmmmnet there was a disconnect and then but slowly
Speaker 1: you would all I would, I would, you know, be
Speaker 1: sitting there and slowly the next thing that we'd be
Speaker 1: sitting there singing Andy Monica songs like we did when
Speaker 1: we were making the pilot and it felt like, oh,
Speaker 1: that feeling that we all had the love that we
Speaker 1: had for that's just each other, but what we were doing,
Speaker 1: UM was still there. And I think a lot about
Speaker 1: and you know, and also I had, UM I've never
Speaker 1: been as close to a cast. I've never tried to
Speaker 1: be as close to a cast, because I think that
Speaker 1: all of our lines like where we friends, was I
Speaker 1: your boss? I I was I was Actually the thing
Speaker 1: that people also think about shoan Runners is like, you know,
Speaker 1: we actually all worked for the same person. We were
Speaker 1: all employees of Fox. I was not your boss. I
Speaker 1: was an employee, although I was given this sort of
Speaker 1: position of power that I really was not prepared for.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it was a It was a particularly those
Speaker 1: beginning years were really really heavy and overwhelming. But I
Speaker 1: have to say I look back on it with a
Speaker 1: real great degree of of affection because for every bad moment,
Speaker 1: there were like a hundred great moments. And I just
Speaker 1: the thing that I remember so vividly was I had
Speaker 1: a house account at the Chateau Armant and I cannot
Speaker 1: tell you how many nights we as a group shut
Speaker 1: that place down. I mean we had a ball. We
Speaker 1: had a ball, and I remember even some of the
Speaker 1: first award shows we went to as a group. We
Speaker 1: won't name them, but I just remember us having a
Speaker 1: sense of what is happening, like it was so fun.
Speaker 1: It was, it was so fun, and we we had
Speaker 1: a ball, and we were just always together. We were
Speaker 1: always together, whether it was filming at dinner, we were
Speaker 1: together more than we were with our own families. And
Speaker 1: and I think you're right, run like, thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 1: I feel like in a parallel, parallel universe we were
Speaker 1: going through the same thing where we didn't we weren't
Speaker 1: prepared for what was happening in our lives, and we
Speaker 1: weren't prepared for it, and we loved this show, and
Speaker 1: we you know, I I look back with very fond memories.
Speaker 1: Now a million good things outweigh the one bad thing
Speaker 1: in the press that we see these days. You know,
Speaker 1: a million great things that weren't talked about, And I
Speaker 1: think that's what we want to do on this show,
Speaker 1: is share all of those. But you know, in this
Speaker 1: parallel universe, like the show was ours for those first
Speaker 1: thirteen twenty episodes or however many we did before the
Speaker 1: world kind of took it. And that's that was for
Speaker 1: us to make for them in many ways, like it
Speaker 1: changed many lives, it saved lives, and and I'm so
Speaker 1: grateful for that because it kept us going and those
Speaker 1: really hard and seasons of like people are still hanging
Speaker 1: on and still with us and still really enjoying this,
Speaker 1: so we do it for them. But um early on,
Speaker 1: like it was ours and then all the power and
Speaker 1: everything was kind of like it became so external, and
Speaker 1: that was like an incredibly difficult shift that none of us,
Speaker 1: I think had the time or energy to process at
Speaker 1: that point. We were so exhausted and we were still working.
Speaker 1: You were you started horror story at that point, Like
Speaker 1: there were a million things going on that like nobody
Speaker 1: got to sit in process until you come to a
Speaker 1: point where you lose one friend, you lose two friends,
Speaker 1: you lose three friends, you lose crew members, you lose
Speaker 1: all these really important people in such a momentous time
Speaker 1: in your life that you go back and go, what
Speaker 1: was it really about? What was it that made it
Speaker 1: so special that gives you that feeling of Like I
Speaker 1: remember when we went to the upfronts for the first
Speaker 1: time and we watched that trailer that we had made,
Speaker 1: and I was bawling and They're like everybody's laughing at me,
Speaker 1: but I was like, I love this thing. I get it,
Speaker 1: like I got it before I think some people got
Speaker 1: in and I was. I just so attached to it
Speaker 1: and attached to all of us and this little family
Speaker 1: that we had made. So yeah, I think I agree
Speaker 1: with you. Like I look at back at that period
Speaker 1: and I remember being emotional about every cut, like showing
Speaker 1: you guys and sitting in those rooms and crying. And
Speaker 1: I think, if you look back at it, it it was
Speaker 1: a very interesting group of people because all of us
Speaker 1: had something in common. And the thing that when I
Speaker 1: look back is we all were kind of nerds, and
Speaker 1: we all felt unloved and unseen, not just maybe in
Speaker 1: our families but by the business. We all were like
Speaker 1: these kind of people that had weird, unique talents that
Speaker 1: were unseen and finally we got to show them. And
Speaker 1: then against all odds, people loved us after hating us
Speaker 1: for so long. At least that's how I felt. And
Speaker 1: that's a very emotional thing that we went through because
Speaker 1: we were kind of united. We were all marginalized people
Speaker 1: and suddenly we became the establishment and the trend setters,
Speaker 1: and that also can screw with your ego, and that
Speaker 1: was also very interesting and bizarre to me, and um
Speaker 1: a lesson learned. But yeah, I just I just, you know,
Speaker 1: it's that thing. I always think, like, God, I really
Speaker 1: did love it, and if I could, those those two
Speaker 1: years I will say, from the making of the Glee
Speaker 1: pilot probably to two thousand and eleven were, without questioned,
Speaker 1: the happiest years of my life. Without a doubt. I
Speaker 1: look back on that time and I think, wow, that's
Speaker 1: what I was doing Glee. That's when I met my
Speaker 1: better I mean, I've been friends with my better half,
Speaker 1: but you know, I started dating him because he was
Speaker 1: dating some guy who was like twenty years old. And
Speaker 1: he called me up after a long time where I
Speaker 1: hadn't spoken to me. He said, can you get me
Speaker 1: Glee tickets from the guy? I'm like, you've got to
Speaker 1: be kidding, and so he I got. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: So I got him tickets to the Radio City Glee thing.
Speaker 1: And I was, you know, chain smoking at the time,
Speaker 1: so I was rail thin, and I was wearing this
Speaker 1: Jill sound or coat and I looked good for like
Speaker 1: two weeks in my life. And that was the period.
Speaker 1: And then he saw remember the skinny mini, and then
Speaker 1: he was like, who is what happened here? So that
Speaker 1: that's how I started to date David that night and
Speaker 1: then we kis married right David's But it's sort of
Speaker 1: that was a great period in my life. Of listen,
Speaker 1: there were battle royal's but it was fun because you know,
Speaker 1: again I get back to it was the first the
Speaker 1: first big success, the first moment in the spotlight where
Speaker 1: you know, we were all kids, I think, knowing all
Speaker 1: you guys who were singing in front of mirrors with
Speaker 1: hair brushes, and then you get to be in a
Speaker 1: global stage doing something like that, it was a wondrous time.
Speaker 1: It was constantly, every single day was like all of
Speaker 1: our wildest dreams coming true. I feel like, as easy
Speaker 1: as it is now to look back and be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: here are things we could have done differently, I also
Speaker 1: feel like and that in the beginning, by you putting
Speaker 1: yourself out there to be our friend, you know, and
Speaker 1: be that close to us, for better or for worse,
Speaker 1: it did make us feel safe and protected. Though. It
Speaker 1: did allow us to show up every day and to
Speaker 1: show our unique abilities and talents and skills that nobody
Speaker 1: else cared to see before. And so I do think
Speaker 1: because of that, because of the tone you said that, yeah,
Speaker 1: even if we hadn't seen you for a while and
Speaker 1: you'd come out set, we'd still run over to you
Speaker 1: because you felt like a foundational aspect of who we are,
Speaker 1: who we are or were in relationship to the show,
Speaker 1: and so you allowed us to be all of those things.
Speaker 1: You pushed us to be our better selves and get
Speaker 1: our talent out there as much as possible. In the
Speaker 1: very beginning, yes we're retired. Yeah yeah. And then of
Speaker 1: course it was that thing where you know, I also
Speaker 1: had I remember like I I was the person that
Speaker 1: also had to be the disciplinarian about some of these things,
Speaker 1: like you know, laying down the law, which is absolutely
Speaker 1: absurd now, like you know what it should have been.
Speaker 1: There should have been some person who was just in
Speaker 1: charge of schedules and personalities, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: there was there was no exactly but you know, like
Speaker 1: I'll just speak graphically and we can cut it out,
Speaker 1: you know, like if you want. But I started off
Speaker 1: that job as a writer and a producer, and halfway
Speaker 1: through that job, because of the phenomenon that it became
Speaker 1: and the things that then happened when you were part
Speaker 1: of a phenomenon, and some of them are good, some
Speaker 1: of them are bad, you know, I had to deal
Speaker 1: with things that are absolutely batshit crazy out of my knowledge.
Speaker 1: Like I had no idea about how to handle domestic violence.
Speaker 1: I had no idea how to handle addiction. I had
Speaker 1: no idea how to handle unwanted pregnancies. I had no
Speaker 1: idea how to do any of these things. So I
Speaker 1: was in this role of like the boss but also
Speaker 1: a friend and actually loving everyone. And then it was
Speaker 1: just very, very overwhelming, and um again, it really did
Speaker 1: teach me about parenting and what not to do, what
Speaker 1: to do and yeah, and I'm just I'm just so
Speaker 1: relieved and thrilled that at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: And again, I'll go back to the Naya thing, which
Speaker 1: was incredibly healing, but I'm glad that we all got
Speaker 1: to have these It was like a couple of weeks
Speaker 1: to really talk about what Glee did to us and
Speaker 1: what Glee did for us, and those are two very
Speaker 1: different things. And it was really healing and getting to
Speaker 1: because you and I would tell you guys, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you had that feeling, but did you know that when
Speaker 1: that was going on, I was doing X X Y Y,
Speaker 1: and you guys had no idea because I would always
Speaker 1: keep that stuff from you for the most part. But
Speaker 1: that was that was interesting to share what I was
Speaker 1: going through too, because so many times I think you
Speaker 1: guys would think that I was just this sort of
Speaker 1: automaton dressed in calmed Garson who would come level but
Speaker 1: it wasn't that I was torn up and struggling and
Speaker 1: trying to figure it out. I found it interesting when
Speaker 1: when we did you the night when Naya I went missing,
Speaker 1: you called me Ryan, and I remember thinking, because at
Speaker 1: that point I was we were all distraught and you know,
Speaker 1: wondering what was happening. And I remember in the sense
Speaker 1: that I had anytime I talked to you always talked
Speaker 1: about Glee with sort of this I don't know if
Speaker 1: it was anger or it wasn't definitely wasn't positivity. It
Speaker 1: was sort of like I'm over at everything's annoying, everyone's whatever.
Speaker 1: And you called me and I was sort of like, look,
Speaker 1: I don't know how it came up, but I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what impression you have of the show,
Speaker 1: but it has brought a lot of us, a lot
Speaker 1: of good and a lot of positivity and a lot
Speaker 1: of joy. And and then from there you and I
Speaker 1: talked every day for I don't know, almost a month,
Speaker 1: and very quickly it turned into you know, what do
Speaker 1: we all have to lose by not talking to you
Speaker 1: directly into each other about the things that brought us together,
Speaker 1: and then what sort of took us apart? And it
Speaker 1: was very interesting also to like watch your transformation sort
Speaker 1: of every phone call of also working through things the
Speaker 1: way we were also all working through things, and I
Speaker 1: felt like it was very um as and it was
Speaker 1: such odd timing but made sense that It's like, of
Speaker 1: course Nia is going to just have us talk about everything,
Speaker 1: through everything out there as she would. And it was
Speaker 1: through grief, like you said, be able to completely sort
Speaker 1: of like open up all the wounds from everyone and
Speaker 1: just spill it. And you were like, I'll take it.
Speaker 1: I will sit there and i will take it because
Speaker 1: I want everyone to know that I'm listening and hearing
Speaker 1: what they're saying and I'm accepting, you know, their experience,
Speaker 1: and I was on the other side of it, and um,
Speaker 1: it is interesting now to hear how you've also like
Speaker 1: shifted and had this more you know, positive outlook, because
Speaker 1: I think it's it's so easy to get way down,
Speaker 1: especially externally by all like the ship people say who
Speaker 1: weren't involved in it at all, and it's like, no,
Speaker 1: we spent years having just incredible, incredible, positive, joyful experiences
Speaker 1: and getting to do craziest things like in one weekend
Speaker 1: we performed on Oprah and then went to the White
Speaker 1: House and hung out at the White House and then
Speaker 1: performed at the White House. Did it was like we
Speaker 1: would rather you did. I was there, you were there,
Speaker 1: We were doing insane things, and there were so many
Speaker 1: great things that we And the reason we're always going
Speaker 1: to be connected like this and so deeply is because
Speaker 1: only we only have each other to relate to end this,
Speaker 1: because nobody else went through this, and we all went
Speaker 1: through a very specific set of circumstances. And so I
Speaker 1: think that's also why we feel things so deeply with
Speaker 1: each other. Where the highs are high and the lows
Speaker 1: are low, is because like family, it's like, well, I
Speaker 1: have no one else to relate to on this, so
Speaker 1: like I, I either hate you or I love you,
Speaker 1: and I can say I hate you because I love you.
Speaker 1: And so it's sort of that high school drama that
Speaker 1: you know doesn't ever and unless you face a head
Speaker 1: on which you sort of spearheaded, that wasn't That was
Speaker 1: an interesting um switch for me at Also other things
Speaker 1: started to happen at that time, right, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think the thing for me is like that idea of
Speaker 1: being a part of a cultural phenomenon and sort of
Speaker 1: going so high that once you're so high, you can
Speaker 1: only come down, and the feeling coming down is not
Speaker 1: good for anybody. It doesn't feel good. And then the
Speaker 1: media starts to take, you know, shots at you and
Speaker 1: punish you for the thing that they actually rewarded you
Speaker 1: for identically six months before so. And then you did
Speaker 1: warn us of that, by the way, I distinctly, but
Speaker 1: I guess we were super young, but you did walk
Speaker 1: us through those things until it happens. It's sort of
Speaker 1: unbelievable theoretical. I think the thing that happened for me
Speaker 1: was there was a there was a turning point for
Speaker 1: me where, um, I was in it. I was in it.
Speaker 1: I was and then you know that thing where you're
Speaker 1: like the gay kid, who, what do you mean? You're
Speaker 1: gonna make my dream horror show and green light that? Yes?
Speaker 1: What do you mean? I can go do the normal
Speaker 1: heart yes? Like I just was so thinking that I
Speaker 1: would never work again that I took the yeses and
Speaker 1: then I started to build this business that I've really enjoyed,
Speaker 1: and that kind of took me further out to see.
Speaker 1: And then I think you guys felt further estrange for
Speaker 1: me because physically I wasn't there creatively. Then you know,
Speaker 1: we added a writer's room and it became a bigger thing.
Speaker 1: And I think the thing that happened for me to
Speaker 1: be blunt was, you know, Corey died, and then after
Speaker 1: Corey's death and I had to plan a memorial service,
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't, I don't know how to
Speaker 1: do this anymore. I can't, I don't know what to do. Um.
Speaker 1: And it was so painful and dark, and I think
Speaker 1: we all felt that. But you know, there was also
Speaker 1: a very large crew who had been with us from
Speaker 1: the beginning who was very little, yeah, just no turnover.
Speaker 1: It was a family, and people wanted to keep working,
Speaker 1: and well not everybody, there were a few that didn't,
Speaker 1: but UM, I just think that after that, I was
Speaker 1: sort of like Elvis has left the building. I think
Speaker 1: my spirit had gone out of it. And I was
Speaker 1: so devastated by his death, UM that I had to
Speaker 1: step away from my own mental health, even though I
Speaker 1: didn't call it mental health at the time. So it
Speaker 1: did become like this sort of thing where there was
Speaker 1: a lot of space between us. But then recently what
Speaker 1: has happened is we all, most of us got back
Speaker 1: together in a very adult good way and had adult conversations.
Speaker 1: You guys are adults now you're not kids, you know,
Speaker 1: And sort of that was a shift in all of
Speaker 1: your lives. You have partners, you have children, like um,
Speaker 1: you process it differently. And then now you know, Glee
Speaker 1: is on Hulu, It's on Disney Plus, and every day
Speaker 1: there are people who reach out to me about my
Speaker 1: eight year old is watching this show. And these young
Speaker 1: people have no memory of it being in the media
Speaker 1: and a cultural phenomenon. They're just loving the musical experience
Speaker 1: of it. So that to me has been sort of
Speaker 1: reinvigorating and like, oh, the work lasted and the works
Speaker 1: tested the you know. And it's also hilarious to me
Speaker 1: some of the stuff that we did in those later
Speaker 1: seasons that were so mercilessly attacked by the press. Example,
Speaker 1: remember when we did those scenes with Sue as Jigsaw
Speaker 1: and and like the Puppet and Jane had the hurt Rocker.
Speaker 1: I believe that there were there were many columns written
Speaker 1: about that I should be killed for those scenes, but
Speaker 1: now they are among the most beloved watched streamed like,
Speaker 1: so it's interesting, like everything comes still wrong, You're still
Speaker 1: wrong for what the Fox is Kevin and Style. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's talk about these two songs, which I have been
Speaker 1: a gang of style and what the Fox says. I
Speaker 1: would like you to put yourself in my little I
Speaker 1: understand why you did it? Understand Okay, twenty two episodes
Speaker 1: a year to fill. Right, So when you're doing it
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, what's that. That's what's at the
Speaker 1: top of the charts, like, um, yeah, And if you
Speaker 1: look at that show, you can also look at like
Speaker 1: what was popular and what was classic, like it was
Speaker 1: a weird mixture. And yes, I will say Gangham style
Speaker 1: not the best moment, but there was a reason why
Speaker 1: it was only because it was so incredibly popular. And
Speaker 1: Glee in some regards, was like the jukebox musical of
Speaker 1: its day, the top of the pops. You could tune
Speaker 1: in to see what was totally popular. But I don't know,
Speaker 1: is that is that your least favorite number? Nay. I
Speaker 1: felt like I was the last one to break out
Speaker 1: of the cast, the last and that was my breaking
Speaker 1: point because I think I think it's because I don't
Speaker 1: I don't know, but there was something about having puppets
Speaker 1: and doing that and doing that number or I it
Speaker 1: was just like what fever? Dream? What has happened? Dream?
Speaker 1: And there's an actual shot of me looking into the
Speaker 1: camera where I'm just like, I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: it was just because like, okay, am I allowed to break?
Speaker 1: Now everyone else has broken. It took a very long
Speaker 1: time for you. And this is my reaction. But I
Speaker 1: will say, do you remember, like, speaking of all the
Speaker 1: current music, people used to send you their music, like
Speaker 1: I remember Gaga sent you Born Born this Way album
Speaker 1: because Brad and you you guys walked back onto set
Speaker 1: and Brad was like, oh, yeah, we just Lady Gaga's
Speaker 1: people brought us over their music. Brad Falchuk the straightest
Speaker 1: man on earth talking about listening to Lady Gaga and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, how was it like?
Speaker 1: And he was like, oh yeah, there's probably some hits
Speaker 1: on there. I'm like, where's Ryan? And so I knew
Speaker 1: exactly what the hits with ye like that was? That was?
Speaker 1: That was? You know, that was That was a very
Speaker 1: interesting period and again McCartney sent his music over. UM.
Speaker 1: I learned a lot from that period. Um. That was
Speaker 1: a weird period where when Glee became popular that we
Speaker 1: could reach out to any artist in the world, and
Speaker 1: they would pretty much say yes except a few yeah.
Speaker 1: But I also learned something like that from that, like
Speaker 1: you know that whole Kings of Leon thing when when
Speaker 1: that was the first rejection, I think, and I took
Speaker 1: it personally and I gave an interview with a lot
Speaker 1: of you briss in a really big head and and
Speaker 1: said really stupid things, And looking back on it, I
Speaker 1: feel like they were right, like you as an artist
Speaker 1: should be allowed to, you know, do with your music
Speaker 1: what you will. And I should never have said anything.
Speaker 1: I that was just the I learned a lot of
Speaker 1: life lessons and I was such a jerk in that interview.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I said some stupid thing about
Speaker 1: depriving America's children of Kings of Leam. I don't remember that,
Speaker 1: but it was. It was not good. Don't remember then
Speaker 1: they came out because I was devastated. I love you.
Speaker 1: I love that we were sitting in the same row
Speaker 1: as them at the Grammys. I was like, oh, I
Speaker 1: was like, this is embarrassing. I love you. I had
Speaker 1: I had that moment with Dave Grohl, who I really
Speaker 1: love as an artist, and he spoke out against that interview.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you recall saying, who is this
Speaker 1: guy saying something? And I was going to some another
Speaker 1: awful award show moment and he was in front of
Speaker 1: me and turned around and goes, oh, hi hi, He goes,
Speaker 1: It's all good. He was such a lovely guy. And
Speaker 1: he was such a lovely guy. But again, things that
Speaker 1: you learned, Like I never had any media training. I
Speaker 1: was just so thrilled to literally have Taylor Swift and
Speaker 1: Beyonce an Adele remember Adele Adele would talk about her
Speaker 1: love of Glee and her love of Amber and just
Speaker 1: like that was that was amazing, Like to be a
Speaker 1: part of those that experience with that level of artists,
Speaker 1: To have Stevie Nicks show up on set and send flowers,
Speaker 1: remember that huge flower arrangement she sent, that craft room
Speaker 1: we had, she gave, she talked to us in the
Speaker 1: Glee in the classroom, and she was It was just
Speaker 1: like that really great period where as a fan, you
Speaker 1: could say, or I could say, like I wanted to
Speaker 1: do songs and pay tribute to people that I loved,
Speaker 1: like Barbara Streisan. You know, I got to meet Barbara
Speaker 1: because of Glee and become friends with her. So it
Speaker 1: was like past and present, but it was it was.
Speaker 1: It was that show in the in the in the
Speaker 1: moment in time, was UM an indisputable force in terms
Speaker 1: of I was would say, you know, showcasing the love
Speaker 1: of music, and to me, that's what it really was about.
Speaker 1: It was about I love music. Music is something that
Speaker 1: brings people together. It's a great equalizer. I, you know,
Speaker 1: had the lead in every musical in high school. One
Speaker 1: of my great tragedies is that I did not become
Speaker 1: a pop music singer. What I really wanted to be
Speaker 1: was a pop music singer and or the editor in
Speaker 1: chief of Vogue, and I could not do either of them,
Speaker 1: which is why I'm doing what I'm doing. So we know,
Speaker 1: you can run a little bit. I can't actually, and
Speaker 1: by run we mean I only I only could do
Speaker 1: one thing. But it was just fun and UM that's
Speaker 1: the that's the joy of that show is UM. I
Speaker 1: think the love of music that even if you watch it,
Speaker 1: I think you can tell now because I went back
Speaker 1: in preparation for this and watch some of the old
Speaker 1: episodes and you can tell, like, oh, they really did
Speaker 1: love what they were doing and they really did have
Speaker 1: a great appreciation and admiration for these artists, and we
Speaker 1: were interpreting them in different ways and mashing things up,
Speaker 1: and it was all like love letters to me, except
Speaker 1: Gangham style not a love letter. Three am, what are
Speaker 1: we going to do in here? But I still love
Speaker 1: that song I do. I'm sorry, I love it selfishly.
Speaker 1: I mean that K pop episode. I remember Brad turning
Speaker 1: to me. He's like, do you I heard you like
Speaker 1: K pop? I was like, I love K pop. He's like,
Speaker 1: what can we put in the background of the scene.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'll send you a whole list and I
Speaker 1: got my favorite K pop artists? You did? Yes, we're
Speaker 1: like rehearsing to to Big Bang, which was my favorite
Speaker 1: group at the time. But what season was this? What
Speaker 1: was this? No? God three or four must have been
Speaker 1: later um in the spirit of like artists and all
Speaker 1: these amazing people. What about the guest stars and and
Speaker 1: talk about the casting of the pilot as well, like
Speaker 1: were you pitched big name like and what made you
Speaker 1: decide to go with all of us little unknown? You know, well,
Speaker 1: that was a that was a wondrous, amazing um casting
Speaker 1: session that I've really only had once since, and that
Speaker 1: was with the cast of Pose. It was a very
Speaker 1: similar idea, which was, let's let's make stars. Let's there's
Speaker 1: so much talent out there, let's let's find people. When
Speaker 1: we were writing the the pilot, I've never really talked
Speaker 1: about this. That pilot was written for Justin Timber, Mr
Speaker 1: Shoe was written for Justice. Wait a second, hold up,
Speaker 1: this is actually brand new information. I think we need
Speaker 1: to pause and we'll we will talk about this next time.
Speaker 1: So come back next week to hear the second part
Speaker 1: of our almost three hour conversation with Ryan Murphy, because
Speaker 1: you don't want to miss it. It's just getting started.