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When did Europe start speaking English? Did Marco 30 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: Polo really go to China? Curiosity Stream is the streaming 31 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: service for all things history, plus science, wildlife and more. 32 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: What's the real story behind the Mona Lisa? We've got that? 33 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: What caused the collapse of Rome? We know? Where? Did 34 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: we find Mankind's earliest ancestor? Come find out? From Egypt 35 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: to Weinstein. Curiosity Stream is the place for history with monthly, annual, 36 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: and bundled plans. Find one for you at curiosity stream 37 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: dot com. Welcome to the Piketon Massacre, a production of 38 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Katie Studios grown up around him. Here's such 39 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: a sweetheart and everything. Jake Wagner, he originally pleaded not 40 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: guilty to the murder of eight Rodent family members, saying 41 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: him say that he was guilty, I am guil It 42 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: just gives you a complete chills. Admitted to personally killing 43 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: five of the eight into trying to burn and get 44 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: rid of Avid. And he'll now avoid the death penalty 45 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: and spend the rest of his life in prison. If 46 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,399 Speaker 1: I've done something to making that outrageously mad, he could 47 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: have killed me too. Wagners showed a little to no 48 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: emotion in cour today, just answering yes or no to 49 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: the judge. But his life was controlled all the time. 50 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: Special Prosecutor said the Wagners were a cult like family. 51 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: I think it was still Angelo behind the scene, control 52 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: and everything, like a little puppet master. This is the 53 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: Pikedon Massacre. Returned to Pike County season two, Episode two, 54 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: Cinnamon and hay M Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 55 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. On April 56 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: twenty second, twenty twenty one, Jake Wagner pleaded guilty to 57 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: twenty three counts, including eight aggravated murder charges, in the 58 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: Rodin murder case. The motive behind the killings back in 59 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, according to prosecutors, was a custody dispute between 60 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: Jake and victim hannahme Rodin over their young daughter. As 61 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: it stands, the other three Wagners accused in the murders, 62 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: Jake's father Billy, mother Angela, and brother George, have all 63 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: pled not guilty. The day that Jake appeared in court 64 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: for his plea deal, we caught up with Christina Howard. 65 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: Her sister Tabby had a relationship with the accused eldest son, 66 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: George Wagner. The two were married and had a son together, 67 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: but eventually divorced. When you found out for a fact 68 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: that Jake was guilty, what was your reaction? My reaction 69 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: was like wow, in a way, kind of speechless, because 70 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: me and Hamm were friends when we were younger. You 71 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: never really think about somebody who is or once was 72 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: a friend, being able to take so many lives like that. 73 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: Last season, Christina told us a little bit about a 74 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: custody dispute that ensued between Tabby and George Wagner. After 75 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: the couple split up. It piqued our interest when we 76 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: heard about it, since it foreshadowed what was to come 77 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: for hannahme Roden. Christina was a little hesitant to divulge 78 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: too much last time we spoke, but in light of 79 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: Jake's please, she chose to delve into Tabby's story a 80 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: little more, and what we found is far darker and 81 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: much more disturbing than we could have ever imagined. What 82 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: follows is Christina's recollection of the events. Christina's relationship with 83 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: the Wagner family goes back to her childhood. Her mother 84 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: began working for grandmother of the acute used Frederica Wagner, 85 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: whom Christina affectionately refers to as Freddie. When she was 86 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: a kid, she was a grandmother too in a way. 87 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: I would go to work with my mother and I 88 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: would hang around Freddie a lot, and she treated my 89 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: family pretty kindly. On holidays, she would always get me 90 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: and my sister's presents, and I have Christmas dinners and 91 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,559 Speaker 1: Easter dinners, and it was like, you know, us being 92 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: part of her family, and it was pretty nice. Eventually, 93 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: Christina and her sister Tabby met Frederica's grandsons, George and 94 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner. Christina told Jeff that George and Tabby hit 95 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: it off and soon became a couple. They got together 96 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: when they were young teens. I think my sister was 97 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: like thirteen fourteen, you know, and they ended up liking 98 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: each other. Did you think that George was bad news? 99 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: He was a little bit of a travelmaker. Christina would 100 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: often tag along when Tabby went to visit George at 101 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: the Wagner's home. They had like this pretty little like 102 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: house up on the hill, and they had like their 103 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: own little pond up there. It was pretty isolated. They 104 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: had a privacy gate at the bottom that in order 105 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: to get in, somebody up at the top of the 106 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 1: house would have to come down and unlock it. Me, George, Jake, 107 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: and Tabby we would like go outside and you know, 108 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: do young dumb teenager kid type stuff and play tag, 109 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: jump on the trampoline and the treehouse and all that. 110 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: It was really fun and we could be as rowdy 111 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: as a noisy as we wanted because they didn't have 112 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: no neighbors whatsoever. While George and Tabby were hanging out, 113 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: Christina struck up a friendship with Jake Wagner. Jake was 114 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: actually a really nice kid. Me and him were kind 115 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: of friends. It was pretty cool. He was really nice, 116 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: kind of shy, who played video games, all that good stuff. 117 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: As a kid. Jake struck Christina as kind and almost 118 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: unusually empathetic. I remember in Jake's bedroom, you know, he 119 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: had his own little peev and video game system and 120 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: all that stuff, and he had this one stuff duck, 121 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: and it was like hanging on the wall or something, 122 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: and it kind of gave me the creeps whenever I'm 123 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: a little kid. And he was sweet enough to take 124 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: it off his wall and hide it in his closet 125 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: or something, because the game of the creeps. The more 126 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: time Christina spent at the home, the more familiar she 127 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: became with the boy's mother, accused murderer, Angela Wagner, she 128 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: sometimes referred to as Angie. Christina told Stephanie that on 129 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: the surface, everything about Angela Wagner seemed to personify the 130 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: typical all American mom. Out front was like this nice 131 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: little walk away with flowers and you know, the white 132 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: picket fence except in the country cotton deal. And then 133 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: like you go and find the house or the kitchen, 134 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: and then right beside the kitchen of the living room 135 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: and it's pretty big. They got like this huge section 136 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: all and a nice big TV. And the house smelled 137 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: like it kind of smelled like cinnamon mixed with hay. 138 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if she could really imagine that, but like, 139 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: take some may got around everywhere and sprinkle some cinnamon 140 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: in it, and that's what it smelled. Watch Angela would 141 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: make us some snacks or some lunch or whatever. I 142 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: think even like maybe twice she made us dinner. It 143 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: was pretty good. She sounds like a homemaker, which is 144 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: again what makes it so shocking to imagine that she 145 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: had the ability to do something so horrific. Yeah, but 146 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: the more time Christina spent at the Wagner home, the 147 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 1: relationship between the Wagner boys and their mother came into focus. 148 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: They were always around their mom, no matter what their 149 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: mom said, went always. If they wanted to play outside longer, 150 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: if Angie said no, it was no. I yes, they 151 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: wanted to play their video games longer. If Andy said no, 152 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: it was no. Even if like they slightly disobeyed her, 153 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: she put her foot down, meaning like you better listen 154 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: to me, or I'm gonna book your butt, and they're 155 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: just like, all right, Mama, it didn't matter what Angie said. 156 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: That's what went. As the kids got older, Angela Wagner 157 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: seems to take more control over her boys lives, especially Jake. 158 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: We had a job somewhere and his mom like actually 159 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: made him quit the job because she said that the 160 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: job wasn't good enough for him, meaning Angela Wagner. Jake 161 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: Wagner's mom said, this job's over, it's not good enough 162 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: for you. Yeah. It's like, you know, your mom controls 163 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: your whole entire life. And it wasn't long before Angela 164 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: turned her controlling ways towards Christina's family. Angie made George 165 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: break up with Tabby because Angie didn't like my sister 166 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: because you know, George and Jake were Mama's boys and 167 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: ain't nothing in the world gonna be able to steal 168 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: her boys from her. She was just so controlling. Soon, 169 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner's true colors began to shine through her all 170 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: American facade. In some photos that I've seen of Angela, 171 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: she looks smiley and she's pretty and just looks like 172 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: an all American mom. But then in other pictures like 173 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: her mugshot, for example, she's sort of grimacing and has 174 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: a scary vibe. What was she like in prison? In person, 175 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 1: she was the type you know, to talk about every 176 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: day stuff like how you do, and how's your family 177 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: and everything else like that. But it felt like whenever 178 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: she would talk to you, it felt like an act 179 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: because she was putting on like you know, she was 180 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: looking down on the kind of thing is At least 181 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: that's what I always picked up. She seemed like she 182 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: was put on a math makes people thank so she's 183 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: all right or whatever. But I never really did like her. 184 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: She just spooks me. After the Wagner family was arrested 185 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, the family's unusual dynamic became a key 186 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: building block in the States case against Angela, Billy Jake, 187 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: and George Wagner. On August thirty first of last year, 188 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: George Wagner appeared in court for a pre trial hearing. 189 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: Special Agent Ryan Scheiterer of the Ohio Bureau of Criminal 190 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: Investigation testified that day. He provided details of what authorities 191 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 1: had uncovered about the Wagner's over two years of investigating. 192 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: Here's Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa questioning agent Scheiterer, how would you 193 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: describe the Wagner family. The Wagner family from what we 194 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: found through the investigation as well as their own admittances, 195 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: they're very close. When I say close, they lived together. 196 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: They've always lived together. There's not been a period of 197 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: time where George Wagner has not lived with his brother 198 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: or his mother. But their finances are intermingled. They worked together, 199 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: They've always worked together. They homeschool together, they raised their 200 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: kids together. Everything is done together. So from a birth 201 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: until the day they were arrested, they lived together. Yes. 202 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: Do you have an opinion as whether or not one 203 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: of them might strike out and go commit some Haynes 204 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: tiding with the out and the others knowing about it 205 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: or participating in it. No, we have an informant who 206 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: says that every decision within that family is made as 207 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: a family decision. Years after Angela Wagner forced George Wagner 208 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: and Tabby Howard's relationship to end, the couple rekindled their romance. 209 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: Soon after, Victim Hanname Rodins started going out with Jake 210 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: Wagner and the Rodens, Wagner's and Howard's became very close. 211 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: Hannah's brother Victim Frankie Rodin even joined the Phray. Hannah 212 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: and Tabby were best friends, and Hannah and Jake were together, 213 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: and Tabby and George were together, and Frankie would hang 214 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: out with him a lot because they were like best 215 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: friends with Frankie, I suppose, so they were always like 216 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: going out hunting and fishing and stuff. Then one day, 217 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: Tabby Howard came to her family with some surprising news. 218 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: She and George Wagner were getting married. We didn't know 219 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: anything about it until shortly before it, so Karen something 220 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: like us, like, wow, that's crazy. Instead of excitement, Christina 221 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: felt something much different based on her time spent around 222 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: the family and accused mother Angela Wagner in particular. It 223 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: just didn't feel right to me, and I thought I'd 224 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: speak my mind about it. I told her, I said, listen, 225 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: you don't want to marry him, And she said, well 226 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: why not? I said, because his mom is very controlling. 227 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: I said, you want to wait a few years and 228 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: see how things go before you, you know, jump into 229 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: getting married to him and stuff. And she said, well, 230 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: you're just full of it. You don't know what you're 231 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: talking about. We love each other and everything, and Angie's 232 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: just trying to look out for me. So towards that part, 233 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: I feel like Angie, you know, like kind of turned 234 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: her against her family a bit more of like a 235 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: I don't need you and I'm gonna spend my time 236 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: with my new family. I get want her to get 237 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: married because of the way I felt, but I felt 238 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: like it wasn't my place, because you know, intervene. If 239 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: she's happy, let her be. If not, she'll figure it out. 240 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: On July first, twenty twelve, all three families gathered for 241 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: Tabby Howard and George Wagner's wedding. That was a normal, 242 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: pretty wedding. It was kind of country because you know type. 243 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: She had a camouflage dress and George she had a 244 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: camo tugs. Everybody's camouflage crazy around here. They love it. 245 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: Hanging up, you have somebody what their favorite collars and 246 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, it's camouflage. Me and two of my 247 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: sisters and Hannah or her bridesmaids. The bridesmaids we wore 248 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: black dresses. And Jake was George's best man. Obviously, the 249 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: Wagoners were there. There was Freddy, George and Angela and 250 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: Billy and then some of the other Rodents were there 251 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: and I was walking down the aisle with Frankie. They 252 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: had a smash cake I guess you'd call it, you know, 253 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: where you smashing into each other's faces. It was a 254 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: really good wedding. Talk last episode about the photo of 255 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: the Rodents and Wagner's from Tabby and George's wedding, and 256 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: we can't stop looking at it because it's just so chilling. 257 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: The happiness on everyone's face is palpable. But Christina now 258 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: sees details in the pictures she never saw before. In 259 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: my mind, I feel like the people in the picture 260 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: should be sorted out differently, you know, like in this placement, 261 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: it's like Tabby and George just sent off to Spike 262 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: because even though they're getting married, they're not the like 263 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: the main attraction. And Angie is just like top center 264 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: wearing that white dress, like laughing in their face like 265 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: ha ha, y'all are beneath me. Yeah. I was gonna 266 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: ask you because people have different views. But some people 267 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: think you don't wear white to anyone else's wedding. You know, 268 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: why would aye wear white to another person's wedding? I mean, 269 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: you're not supposed to do that, because that is like 270 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: supposed to be like bad juju on the married couple, 271 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: like saying that I hope that your wedding don't wind 272 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: long kind of thing. It's clear that George Wagner and 273 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: Tabby Howard's wedding marked an inflection point in the lives 274 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: of all three families. After that day, nothing would ever 275 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: be the same. Shortly after the wedding, we stopped hearing 276 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: from her. The last thing that we heard from Tabby 277 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: was that she was pregnant was my nephew, and she 278 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: was given birth to him, and that was it. We 279 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,479 Speaker 1: didn't get no pictures of him, no nothing. We didn't 280 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: hear anything from Tabby, nothing from Angela or George or anybody. 281 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: They just like straight up disappeared. We're going to take 282 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment. 283 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: Like many of us, you might think identity theft will 284 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: never happen to you, but consider this. There's a new 285 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: identity theft victim every three seconds in the US. 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With new titles dropping every week, 338 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: you'll never run out of things to watch, and with monthly, annual, 339 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: and bungled pricing plans, it's easy to find one that 340 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: works for you when your budget. Go to curiosity stream 341 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: dot com to satisfy your curiosity and sign up today. 342 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: Nobody knew where they were, nobody knew what they were 343 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: doing or anything, and it won't like that for a 344 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: couple of years. Everybody was just so concerned about my 345 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: sister because we're like, you know, we literally have not 346 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: heard a thing from her. Then one night, Tabby suddenly 347 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: it was a call, like a random call in the 348 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: middle of the night from a gas station, from a 349 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: number we didn't know, and she's calling us, telling us, hey, 350 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: can you come get me. I'm here at this gas station, 351 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: and you know, we're freaking out, like, what's going on. 352 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: We ain't heard nothing from you in a few years. 353 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: She said, I don't really have time to explain, can 354 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: come get me and all that. So we packed up 355 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: in the car. It was me, my mom and dad 356 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: to go get my sister. And then we get there 357 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: and she's bawling her eyes out. She rode there in 358 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: the middle of the night. It was raining cats and 359 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: dogs outside. She's all wet and cold. She rode there 360 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: on a bike, and the police showed up and put 361 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: my sister in a car in the cock car, asking 362 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: her what was going on and everything, and apparently he 363 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: and George got into a fight. Angie called the cops 364 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: on her and said that she was beating George and 365 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: hitting was a two boy four and everything else, and 366 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: tried to stab him with scissors and all this, And 367 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: Tabby said that that wasn't how it happened. She said 368 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: she was you know, I guess you got into a 369 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: fight with George and Angie and George wouldn't like let 370 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: her go and get his hands off of her. George 371 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: didn't have any marks on him to prove that Tabby 372 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: had beaten him. Tabby didn't have any marks on her 373 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: to prove that he was putting his hands on her. 374 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: So nobody got arrested, just Tabby just got questioned and 375 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: all that, and then you know, she comes home with us, 376 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: and you know, we're sitting there trying to catch up 377 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: on everything with Tabby. Howard told her family that it 378 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: was deeply disturbing. Here's Christina's recollection of her sister's story. 379 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: According to Tabby, Angie wouldn't let her like have a 380 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: phone nan. She always said that Tabby was crazy, and 381 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: she was telling us all about how she was controlling, 382 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: and Tabby said that she wasn't allowed to, you know, 383 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: do anything with her kid, and Angie always said, no, 384 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: you're not, you're crazy, You're an unfit mother. She said 385 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: that she would all the time tell George about what's 386 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: going on and everything, and George was like, oh, it's okay, 387 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: you're just being dramatic. Mom wouldn't do that to you, 388 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: and it's all for your own good blah blah blah. 389 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: We're just looking out for you. But why would they 390 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: do that? What would they have to gain from, you know, 391 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: sitting there keeping my sisters they basically a prisoner and 392 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,719 Speaker 1: you know, sitting there like mentally abusing her and everything else. 393 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: What would they have the game from it? Other than 394 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: you know, my nephew. Christina's story about Tabby's escape from 395 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: the Wagner household may sound outrageous. However, it was convincing 396 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: enough for Agent Scheiterer to testify about it in court 397 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: during George Wagner's hearing last year. Was George ever married? Yes? 398 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: Who is he married to Tabitha? And did he still 399 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: live with the family at the time during the time 400 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: he was married to Tabitha? Yes, okay, So Tabitha lived 401 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 1: with them? Yes, okay? And are you aware of what 402 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: happened that ended that relationship? Yes? What happened? She fled 403 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: the relationship. There was an incident on one particular day, 404 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: her and George had gotten into an argument. Scheiderer included 405 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: a few frightening details that Christina hadn't told us. Eventually, 406 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: there was a comment by Angelo that she was going 407 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: to kill Tamithas so she fled to a gas station 408 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: and ultimately never returned, And actually specifically, she first hit 409 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: on the property until nightfall and then drove to a 410 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: gas station and made her escape that way and never 411 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: went back after that. Corrupt Soon after Tabby Howard fled 412 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: the Wagner's household, the family became too much for victim 413 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: Hanname Rodin to bear as well. Hannah. I guess she 414 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 1: told my sister that that was really courageous of her. 415 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: She was proud of her. She was saying that she 416 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: was tired of it, tired of always being controlled and 417 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,239 Speaker 1: told what to do and everything. So Hannah decided, you know, 418 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: that she was going to leave too. It seems that 419 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: Hanname Rodin left Jake Wagner due to the same reasons 420 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: Tabby Howard left George. Some of these details were illuminated 421 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: at that same he for George Wagner last year. Here's 422 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa questioning agent Ryan Scheiderer about some messages 423 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: Hannah may had written. There were two other Rodent family members, 424 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: and where about Jake, their breakup and her relationship with 425 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: new boyfriend Charlie Gilly. Were you aware why Hannah May 426 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: left Jake domestic violence issues between Jacobs solving her okay? 427 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: And you observed specific communications about that, Yes, she made 428 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: it aware, she made people aware of it, yes, okay. 429 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: Did she also make comments about the Wagner family as 430 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 1: a whole being controlling? Yes. After she had left Jake, 431 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: she started seeing another individual and ultimately conceived a second 432 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: child with that individual, correct, yes, okay. And that was 433 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: who Charlie Guilley okay. And are you aware as to 434 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: whether or not Hannah told Jake that she was pregnant 435 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: and that she also told him who the father of 436 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: the child was. She told Jake as well as Angela, 437 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: that she was pregnant and it was Charlie Gilly's child, okay, 438 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: During that time after she was pregnant Charlie Gilly's child. 439 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: In the months leading up to the homicides, did she 440 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: make it clear to Jake that they were not getting 441 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: back together? Very clear? Okay? And had he asked her 442 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: to engage in dialogue with an attorney in order to 443 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: try to work out custody between them, Yes, she made 444 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: attempts to get that done, yes, okay. And what was 445 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: she interested in doing that. By the time hannahme Rodin left, 446 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: Tabby Howard was in the middle of her own custody 447 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: battle with Jake's brother, George Wagner. Well, we don't know 448 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: all the details of George Wagner and Tabby's custody case. 449 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: There is evidence to support Christina's account of it. It 450 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: was a preview of what would come to bear for 451 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: Hanna May in the following months. My sister was gonna 452 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: do joint custody. My mom tried to help my sister 453 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: go through court and all that, with all that, you know, 454 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: trying to help her, and my sister told my mom 455 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: she said, no, it's okay, Angie will help me out 456 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: with it. And why she trusted Angie with it is 457 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: beyond me. And why she's still wanted to trust her 458 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: was court. I don't know. I don't know what it 459 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: was running through tabbith head, But somehow she got Tabby 460 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: to sign some paperwork saying that George would get full 461 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: custody of my nephew and that Tabby would only get 462 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: visitation rights like on their terms. She wasn't allowed to 463 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: leave the property. What's my nephew, Tabby Howard's custody story 464 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: was also highlighted by Agent Scheiderer. Last year, there was 465 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: a divorce with some child custody issues where ultimately she 466 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: was forced to give up all control of her son 467 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: to George. So she gave up all of her parental rights. Okay, 468 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: and when you see she was forced too, did someone 469 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: who would have gone to her head? No? Okay? But 470 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: in fact, what she prosed in the custody proceedings and 471 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:38,719 Speaker 1: not represented by an attorney correct? Okay? And what George 472 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: was Yes. Despite the Wagner's repeated attempts to keep Tabby 473 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: away from her son, she tried to visit him as 474 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: much as she could. Whenever she would try to reach 475 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: out to George like hey, can I come visit my son, 476 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: Angela would get on there and be like, oh, he's 477 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: not your son anymore. You might have gave bart to him, 478 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: but on his mother because I take care of em 479 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: and all these just nasty things. We're going to take 480 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: a quick break here. We'll be back at a moment. 481 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: So you booked your beach vacation, but do you have 482 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: all you need to make it a good time? This 483 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: week Seeing and Underscored editors are highlighting the best products 484 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: to get you into the water this summer, from swimsuits 485 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: and swin trunks for everybody type to bikini trimmers and 486 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: waterproof sunscreen for every skin type. 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How A Rude Tantarino's 522 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: a Full House Rewatch podcast is here. Join us as 523 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: hosts Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber look back on their 524 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: journey together as the iconic characters we all love, Stephanie 525 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler. Here's a quick preview, brought to 526 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: you by the Hunday two Soon. We spent our entire 527 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: childhoods on a little show called Full House, playing frenemies 528 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling, and now, 529 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: thirty five years later, it's our biggest adventure yet watching 530 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: the original series together from beginning to end, seasons one 531 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: through eight, from adorable childhood to those awkward teen years 532 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: and beyond what awkward teen years? Ye, Geek Burger Andrea. 533 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,439 Speaker 1: We are bringing back the Milkman, the Paperboy and Evening DV. 534 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: We'll be reliving every moment with you, and we'll be 535 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: joined by our Full House family, including all your favorites 536 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: from one hundred and ninety two episodes. We'll reveal the 537 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: hidden treasures you may have missed within the show, and 538 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: we'll take a trip down memory lane together. You can 539 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: listen to how Rude Tanta Ritos on the iHeartRadio app 540 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by 541 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: the Hunday two Soon it's your journey. Tabby Howard made 542 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: one last valiant effort to see her son. It was 543 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: an Easter because I remember my sister made her son 544 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: an Easter basket, you know, wanting to give it to 545 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: him for Easter and everything. I went there with her. 546 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: It was me her and my mom, and my mom 547 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: stayed in the car and I got out of the 548 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: car with Tabby and we walked up her you know, 549 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: knocker on the door because she had previously called George 550 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: j askin him if she could come see her son 551 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: and give him an Easter basket. He said, yeah, that's fine, 552 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: come on over and you can see your son and 553 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: give him his Easter basket. And she said all right. 554 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: So we went there, and then once we got there, 555 00:35:54,480 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: Angie answered the door, and you know, Tabby said, oh, 556 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: I'm here to see my son. Can I have a 557 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: few minutes, you know, spend a few minutes with him 558 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: for Easter? She said, let me go get George, and 559 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: then she slammed the door, and my sister's faith and 560 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: we're sitting out there wait in a good ten fifteen minutes, 561 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: and then George comes out. She asked George, she said, 562 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: what was that about why was your mom, you know, 563 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 1: being hateful. I didn't do anything. And he was like, oh, 564 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: she's just not in a good move today. And she said, 565 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: where's our son? You know, I'd like to see him. 566 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: You said I could come see him. He said, oh, 567 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: he's in there with a fever right now. He's sick 568 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: from staying up all night and day throwing a fit 569 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: and everything else, you know, just coming up with another excuse. 570 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: And then my sister started crying. She said, well, I 571 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: just wanted to see my son. You said I could. 572 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: What's the problem. Man. He was till her like, oh, 573 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 1: don't cry, Everything's all right. And then he like tried 574 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: to hug her, and she said, no, I don't want 575 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: to hug you know. She said, don't touch me, and 576 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: he's like, all right, I won't touch you. You know. 577 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 1: She was like wiping away her tears and stuff. She said, well, 578 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: can you at least give this to our son, and 579 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: if you have time, whenever he gets it, can you 580 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: send me a picture of him with it, Even if 581 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: it's just a picture. I'm happy to see my son. 582 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if he ever got the Eastern basket 583 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: or not, or if they threw it away. I don't know, 584 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: like Tabby Howard victim, Hannim Rodin kept up the fight 585 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: for her child after she and Jake Wagner had broken up. 586 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: But the Rodents had one advantage Tabby didn't. We didn't 587 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: have money like the Roden's got money, because they had 588 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: money too, maybe not as much as the Wagner's, but 589 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: they still they still, you know, lived pretty damn comfortably. 590 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: If they wanted to, you know, take Andye to court 591 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: and all that, and Andie would have a world problem 592 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: on her hands, especially since they had money too. And 593 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: Hannah was the mom and here and Ohias, the mom 594 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: has the right. And they weren't married, You're a sister, 595 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: and George were married, which immediately changes the custody discussion 596 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: from the start. So unlike with the two of you, 597 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: Kenna and Jake were unmarried, so he legally had no rights. 598 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: So that became an added trigger potentially right. And it 599 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: seems that the Wagners knew that we talked last season 600 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: about forged custody documents the Wagners had drawn up in 601 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: order to get sole custody of Hannahme Rodin and Jake 602 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: Wagner's young daughter, Agent Scheiderer discussed the genesis of these 603 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: custody documents, also called declaration documents, in great detail at 604 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: George Wagner's hearing last year. Here's an excerpt from that testimony. 605 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: You seize the computer from the Wagner's Is that correct? 606 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,760 Speaker 1: Trut okay? And that computer was analyzed for evidence. Correct. 607 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: During that review of the content of the computer, you 608 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: discovered that there had been documents Googled searched for on 609 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,479 Speaker 1: April thirty, twenty sixteen. Correct, declaration documents correct, okay. And 610 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: then do you also see that those documents were printed 611 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: out of the computer on the same day. Yes. Yeah, 612 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: the bottom corner of the pages it says April third, 613 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: twenty sixteenth. Okay, So like computers sometimes do when you 614 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: print something and it says what date you're prints act. 615 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: Did you ultimately recover those documents, the actual physical documents, yes, okay. 616 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: And it's your testimony that one of them was a 617 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: declaration reportedly made were apparently made by Hannah May where 618 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: it bore what was in tended to be her signature. Correct. 619 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: Did you submit all of these documents to be examined 620 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 1: by a handwriting expert within VCI, Yes, Okay. Did you 621 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:16,919 Speaker 1: find out if in fact that was her signature. We did, 622 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: it was not her signature, okay. Additionally, you talked about 623 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: the fact that they were dated at a prior time, 624 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: and so I'm clear, are you saying that they were 625 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: in fact backdated? Yes, that is backdated as if it 626 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: were signed in twenty fourteen by hand and a correct. Okay. 627 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: So they print out a piece of paper on April thirty, 628 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. You see evidence of that in the computer 629 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: that it is also printed out that same day. You 630 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: later also recover the original documents with a raised stamp 631 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: on it. Correct, and that piece of paper in existence 632 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, correct, So it could not have been signed 633 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: on those days, correct, okay. Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa noted the 634 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: unusual settlement on the Wagner's forged custody documents. This paper says, 635 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: if Hannah is to meet her demise, then Sophia should 636 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: go to Jake correct. Okay. But if Jake meets his demise, 637 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: then his child goes to his mom correct, not to Hannah. Correct. 638 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 1: Last season, we highlighted an ominous Facebook message that hannahme 639 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: Rodin had written during her protracted custody battle with Jake. 640 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: It was discovered on a laptop owned by the Wagner family. 641 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: Agent Scheider spoke about that message and the warning she 642 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: received from someone who was intimately familiar with the Wagner's 643 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: nefarious ways. At the hearing, you talked about the fact 644 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: that this relationship between Jake and Hannah was not going well, 645 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: that he was bugging her to sign stuff giving him custom. 646 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,240 Speaker 1: Obviously they forged documents that if she were to die, 647 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: Jake would get testody. Was there a specific communication that 648 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: sticks out in your mind that Hannah may made to 649 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: another person that the Wagoners became aware of. Yes, a 650 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: Facebook message? Okay, Messenger message? Okay, so a messenger message? 651 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: Then who was that message too, Patricia? But it would 652 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: be Tabitha's mother, Okay, Tabitha George's wife. You said it 653 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: was a private messenger, correct, Yes, And so if I'm 654 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: understanding correctly, private messenger is not something that anyone else 655 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: would be able to see except for the two people 656 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: that are messaging each other. Correct. Are you aware whether 657 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: or not the Wagoners became aware of that conversation? Absolutely, 658 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: we're aware of it. And how do you know that 659 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 1: there is a screenshot of this conversation found on the 660 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: laptop that belonged to the Wagner family. Okay, the device 661 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: was registered to Jake, but there's strong evidence that Angela 662 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: seemed to be the primary user of that laptop. Can 663 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,320 Speaker 1: you tell us what were they discussing at the time 664 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: that she made this statement. The theme of the conversation was, basically, 665 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,280 Speaker 1: Patricia was telling Hannah, you know, don't let what happened 666 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,399 Speaker 1: to Tabitha happen to you. You know, don't you keep 667 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: fighting for your kid. Don't give up your kid, you know, 668 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:35,399 Speaker 1: basically saying, don't don't become another Tabitha. Okay, And what 669 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: does Hannah say in a response to that? This is 670 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: the copy of the body of their text their conversation, 671 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,319 Speaker 1: and her reply is, I won't sign papers. Ever, it 672 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: won't happen. They will have to kill me first. So 673 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: not only did was that Hannah Ma's sentiments at the 674 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: time that she would not sign papers ever, that they 675 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: would have to kill her first was her sentiments on 676 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: December tenth, twenty fifteen. And you know for a fact 677 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: that the Wagner saw it, in fact, the same day 678 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 1: as she said that. Correct, Yes, okay, and jo Oba. 679 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: Four months later, Anna and all of her family are dead. Correct. 680 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 1: I have another question, John. After the Rodent family was murdered, 681 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 1: Christina Howard and her family were panicked. Pretty much, a 682 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: whole bloodline gets marched off over the custody of one kid. 683 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,359 Speaker 1: And you know, my sister is she's got a kid 684 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: with them too. And you know, after we heard about it, 685 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,320 Speaker 1: we were like, oh shit, better up on security because 686 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: we ain't We ain't about to get crossed out. But 687 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: when the Wagoners were arrested in twenty eighteen, Tabby Howard's 688 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: nightmare finally came to an end. Once they were arrested. 689 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: He was in like a child protective services for a while, 690 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 1: and after a few months she was finally granted full 691 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: custody of her son. Following Jake Wagner's admission in court 692 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: just weeks ago, Christina had to come to terms with 693 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 1: her feelings about the one Wagner. She thought she could 694 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:30,439 Speaker 1: always trust grandmother, the accused, Frederica, I love, but she's 695 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: very gullible. They probably told her some crazy stuff like 696 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 1: all these people are after us, they're trying to frame 697 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: us for these murders. Blah blah blah, well, of course, 698 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,880 Speaker 1: if I'm gollible, I'm gonna hide them, not saying she 699 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: did or anything, but like and in that kind of situation. Yeah, 700 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,799 Speaker 1: So what does the Wagner's sort did history mean? If Angela, Billy, 701 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 1: and George decide to stand trial, they all maintained their 702 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: please of not guilty, it may force Jake Wagner to 703 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: go to court and sit in front of his mother, father, 704 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,320 Speaker 1: and brother and in front of a jury and spill 705 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: as guts and a lot of things we haven't known 706 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,359 Speaker 1: in the last five years are going to be known. 707 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 1: Then you know who went into what home, who died first, 708 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: why they died. You've got to believe we are going 709 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,800 Speaker 1: to learn things we never knew before and hear things 710 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 1: you would have never believed. And if the trials move forward, 711 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 1: the stakes for Pike County prosecutors couldn't be higher. The 712 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,760 Speaker 1: case that the prosecution is building against the Wagner family. 713 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,320 Speaker 1: It's not a single story of ranch. It's a freaking mansion. 714 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 1: And they're investing a lot of time, a lot of hours, 715 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: a lot of capital and this thing, and they don't 716 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,680 Speaker 1: want to see it fail because if this thing fails, 717 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: can you imagine what a nightmare this is. If one 718 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,839 Speaker 1: little thing goes wrong with it, the whole case can 719 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,319 Speaker 1: be destroyed. But on April twenty eight, twenty twenty one, 720 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,320 Speaker 1: less than one week after Jake Wagner's plea dale took place, 721 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,720 Speaker 1: his brother George, appeared in a Pike County courtroom. Reporter 722 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,439 Speaker 1: Anjeanette Leady was on the scene. George just found out 723 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,799 Speaker 1: in the week prior that his brother had confessed and 724 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:25,319 Speaker 1: implicated his whole family. His attorney had been so steadfast 725 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: in court documents and saying, you know, my guy didn't 726 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: do this, He wasn't involved. Well, clearly now his brother 727 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,640 Speaker 1: was saying that's not the case. That George the fourth 728 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,360 Speaker 1: was very much involved. I think we were all wondering, 729 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 1: what is this emotions hearing when of you, like, was 730 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:49,319 Speaker 1: George Wagner going to change his plea More on that 731 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: next time. The Pikedon Massacre Returned to Pike County is 732 00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,319 Speaker 1: executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing 733 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing 734 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,239 Speaker 1: by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker, Chris Graves, Tim Hamilton, and 735 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,360 Speaker 1: Haley Nilsen Engineering by Jason Freeman. The piked In Massacre 736 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 1: Returned to Pike County is a production of iHeartRadio and 737 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,760 Speaker 1: Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 738 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 739 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: Since her role as White House correspondent, Caitlyn Collins has 740 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: never been afraid to dicty. She's a reliable, deeply sourced 741 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: reporter and is always willing to hold the powerful accountable. 742 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,280 Speaker 1: On her new CNN show The Source with Caitlyn Collins, 743 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: Caitlin is bringing that tenacious spirit to primetime. 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