1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero, I am Akshatrati. This week an Oil 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: CEO in the Bardo. A decade ago, the Indian novelist 3 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: Amitav Ghosh gave a series of lectures titled The Great Derangement, 4 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: where he argued that contemporary fiction in all forms has 5 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: been ignoring the climate crisis and that was adding to 6 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: the peril humans already faced. Many have heeded his call 7 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: sins in the form of books, movies, plays, even oratorio. 8 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: So this year on Zero, we are running a series 9 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: called Imagine to delve into what some of our most 10 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: creative minds can do to help us better understand our predicament. 11 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: My guest today is George Saunders, one of America's best storytellers. 12 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: You may know him for his twenty seventeen novel Lincoln 13 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: in the Bardo, which won the Booker Prize. This week, 14 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: George has a new novel out titled. 15 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: Vigil in a Nutshell. 16 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 3: We find ourselves at the bedside of somebody who I 17 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 3: imagined to be kind of a nineteen ninety eight to 18 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 3: two thousand era oil executive. The last night of his life, 19 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 3: the last hours of his life, were joined by a woman, 20 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 3: the ghost of a woman who died in nineteen seventy six, 21 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 3: so somewhat I guess, like as in a Christmas Carol, 22 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 3: she's there to help him, but then it kind of goes, 23 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 3: it goes a little sideways from there. 24 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to bring George on the show to ask 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: him how he approached writing this book and what his 26 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: exploration of climate change revealed. The first half of my 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: interview focuses largely on visual and in the second half 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 1: we brought in the conversation hearing George's takes on AI 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: while literature matters, and even get to talk about games 30 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: to get writing as a beginner. This conversation was a 31 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: lot of fun, and I hope you enjoy it as much. 32 00:01:58,120 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: As I did. 33 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: Send your suggestions and book reviews on Zero port at 34 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. And sorry about this wise, I have 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: a little bit of a cold jeoorgh. Welcome to Zero. 36 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: It's very nice to be here. Thank you for having me. 37 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: Fiction opens up a vast expanse of subjects that a 38 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: writer can touch on throughout your career. You know you've 39 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: touched on things like theme parks and the afterlife, but 40 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: in Vigil you put climate at the heart of the 41 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: conversation why climate change and why now? 42 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 3: Well, honestly, I was starting this book back when Biden 43 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 3: was still president and when it looked like some strides 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 3: were being made maybe in the direction of at least 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 3: acknowledging the reality of climate change. Little did I know 46 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 3: where we were headed, But at that time I thought, well, 47 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 3: it's kind of the most. 48 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: Important thing for the world and in. 49 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 3: The world, So I'll try to put climate on the table. 50 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 3: I don't think I, you know, the idea of climate 51 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: change novel seems a little bit daunting. So I think 52 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 3: sometimes you put a topic on the table and you 53 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 3: don't really know what the novel will be about or 54 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 3: what it will end up being. But if you put 55 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 3: significant things on the table, at least the book won't 56 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 3: be trivial. 57 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 2: So my thought was, what. 58 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: Would it be like some of these people who were 59 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 3: so working so hard to deny climate change, now they're 60 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 3: getting old. If one of those guys was dying and 61 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 3: he looked back at his life's work, would it be 62 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: a shred of honesty about what he had done? Or 63 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 3: you know, is he still feel like he's in the 64 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 3: right place, Which then raises a question of how much 65 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 3: does a person like that know when do they know it? 66 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: So it opened out into all kinds of questions that 67 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 3: are probably I think relevant for anybody who's lived a 68 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: life and expended their energy. And at the end you 69 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 3: get to look back and go, how did I do? 70 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: So? 71 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: It seemed like an intriguing challenge at any rate, and 72 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: at this stage of my career, I just want a 73 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 3: challenge is going to be some fun. 74 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: One of the funnest part of writing is to do 75 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: the research to try and find out more about the 76 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: world as you describe it to the reader while working 77 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: on visual What kind of research did you end up doing? 78 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 3: I did some I would say medium intense research at 79 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: the beginning. And what I tend to do is I 80 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 3: do some a deep dive and I read nothing but 81 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 3: that topic for quite a while. 82 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: I compile it all on. 83 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: A folder, and then I put the folder away and 84 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 3: never look at it again. Because as a fiction writer, 85 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 3: you know, one of the big problems is you could 86 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 3: become sort of attached to your research to the extent 87 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 3: that the book just becomes a book report about your researchers. 88 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: Nobody wants. 89 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 3: So my thought is, and this was true in my 90 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 3: previous novel, Lincoln in the Bartow I thought, I just 91 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 3: get as well informed as a pretty well informed amateur, 92 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 3: so that when you invent, you're not inventing totally divorced 93 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 3: from reality, you know. So there was probably two or 94 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: three months of intense reading and then just okay, you 95 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 3: know something, and now you can go ahead and make 96 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: up some crazy stuff. 97 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: There's also the that your father, I understand, worked for 98 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: a coal company, that you yourself are an engineer, you 99 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: studied at the Colorado School of Minds, and that for 100 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: a period you worked in Sumatra in Indonesia on an 101 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: oil exploration crew. How did that experience shape any of 102 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: this that's come in the novel? 103 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 3: It gave me a sense that I could write this character. 104 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 3: In other words, I if I had chosen, you know, 105 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 3: given my background a very wealthy politician, I don't really 106 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 3: know where to start with somebody like that. I don't 107 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: I don't have a way in. But with the oil business, 108 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 3: especially the stuff that I did, it made me have 109 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: a little taste, as a young man, of what would 110 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 3: be like to be part of that group, to have an adventure. 111 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 3: I worked in Sumatra and we had some really you know, 112 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: for a twenty two year old, great adventures in the 113 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 3: jungle and tigers and you know, all kinds of the 114 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 3: things that you that would seem appealing to a young person. 115 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 3: And I also got a taste of that feeling of 116 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 3: kind of being, you know, even then in the eighties, 117 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 3: part of an embattled but noble crew of technocrats, you 118 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 3: know that that we were doing something that was keeping 119 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 3: the world turning and no one appreciated it, you know. 120 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 3: So and I also worked in the Texas oil fields 121 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 3: quite a bit, so I knew that some of the 122 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 3: some of the technical stuff, some of the jargon, but 123 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 3: mostly the mindset, you know. So again that it for me, 124 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 3: the way in is always I use the word fun. 125 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: I don't know if it's really fun, but the idea 126 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 3: that of overflow, like I could I knew I could 127 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 3: write about oil from that perspective with some overflow, given 128 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 3: the people I'd known and the things I'd done. 129 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: And do you have to speak to, especially for your 130 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: main characters, the type of person who you're going to represent, 131 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: So did you end up speaking to an oil executive 132 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: for example? 133 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: No? 134 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 3: I For me, it's more I really trust my internal 135 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: person generator is funny. The working assumption is that we 136 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 3: contain everybody. So even though I'm a progressive, you know, 137 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 3: kind of new college professor, I used to be a 138 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: different person. And not only that, a lot of different 139 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 3: people that I never actually was do exist within me. 140 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 3: So one of the great thrills of being a fiction writers. 141 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 3: You can say, Okay, could I be a gigly fifteen 142 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: year old girl in Montreal. I'm like, yeah, I could 143 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 3: do that, you know, I could try. I could sort 144 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 3: of imitate her. So for me to interview people is 145 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 3: not again, it sort of pins you down a little bit. 146 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: You know, if someone says something you feel, okay, I 147 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 3: have to be true to that. But the game of 148 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 3: the novelist, as I understand it, is much more kind 149 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 3: of fanciful. It's almost like the Shakespearean jester. You know, 150 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 3: you're just trying to make some sparks, make some laughs 151 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 3: by any means necessary. So for me that means just 152 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: giving myself license to invent, and at the same time 153 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 3: trying to have a generosity of spirit and a precision 154 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: so that I'm being specific about what I'm saying. And 155 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 3: then I think, well, yeah, I can you know, I 156 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 3: can imagine being anyone. You as a reader, are also 157 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: part of this experiment that you're saying, Oh, George is 158 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 3: playing a game. He's pretending to be an eighty five 159 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 3: year old oil executive with different political views, and he holds, Okay, 160 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 3: I can play that game as well, since I'm also 161 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 3: large enough and I contain all these multitudes of personality. 162 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 3: So I think it's a little bit playful. Both reader 163 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 3: and writer sign up for this kind of parlor game 164 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 3: in a certain way, and then the fund comes from there. 165 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: And this is true of many of your pieces of work, 166 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: where the story is fantastic, there are these funny moments, 167 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: and then at the end you also realize, oh my god, 168 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: that was a dark story that I just read. So 169 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: you touch on these themes in a very interesting way. 170 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: But going back to this idea that you said, you know, 171 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: a climate change novel feels like a hard thing. This 172 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: is something that others have expressed. So a decade ago, 173 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: the Indian novelist Amaitav Koch gave us series of lectures 174 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: he called the Great Derangement, where he argued that contemporary 175 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: literature and contemporary writers had really ignor the climate crisis, 176 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: and that ignorance is adding to the peril that humans face. 177 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: Do you think, in that ten year sense, and especially 178 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: now that you're doing this research, that the literary world 179 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: has improved in bringing climate change more into the conversation. 180 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 3: I think so, and I think there's more of an 181 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 3: intention to do so. But for me, the question is 182 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 3: how does one do that given given the features of 183 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 3: the form itself. So, in other words, if I'm if 184 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 3: I'm a writer of string quartets, you know, and some says, oh, 185 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 3: you know, your stream quartets are ignorant of climate change, think, well, 186 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 3: it's a you know, the form has requirements, and the 187 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 3: form has certain ways of producing delight, and we ignore 188 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 3: those at our peril. So again, to me, I think 189 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: the idea is to with this book. I think I 190 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 3: started thinking, all right, I'm going to prove to all 191 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 3: the skeptics that climate change is real, and then as 192 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: you get into the research, you're like that that isn't. One, 193 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 3: that's not what a novel does. But two, anyone who 194 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 3: looks into it is already convinced, so that's not it. Instead, 195 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 3: I'm going to use it as a backdrop or kind 196 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 3: of a feature in the same way that you know, 197 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 3: if you look at a novel like Schindler's List or 198 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 3: the movie, people always say, oh, it's about the Holocaust, 199 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 3: but actually it's not. It's set it's you know, it's 200 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 3: immersed in the Holocaust, but it's about something much more 201 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 3: specific and human and universal, which is, for example, how 202 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 3: does one within an evil system? How does one strive 203 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 3: to do good? So anytime we start writing a novel, 204 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 3: we find out that the thing we thought it was about, 205 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 3: it's not about that. And and what I found is 206 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 3: if you write a novel or a story and it 207 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 3: ends up being about what you thought it was going 208 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 3: to be about, you probably failed because the reader feels 209 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 3: that condescension. You know, Okay, he's given me a lecture. 210 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 3: He's still giving me a lecture. The lecture is finished, 211 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 3: I wish I'd read a different book. But on the 212 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 3: other hand, if we enter into it as teammates, let's 213 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 3: let's try to stumble on some mystery, let's open some 214 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 3: questions up that I think is more the valid function 215 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 3: of the novel. The book that might need to be 216 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 3: written about climate change might not have climate change in 217 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 3: it at all. It might be about denial mindset, It 218 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 3: might be about corporate hegemony, but or might be three 219 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: people on an island somewhere, so we don't know. 220 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting. I noted that there were only 221 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: three mentions of the word climate in the entire book, 222 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: and one of them is not about climate change at all. 223 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: So it is a very interesting way in which you 224 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: touch on the subject without being so literal. In many cases, 225 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: so crises in general do make for interesting storytelling moments, 226 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: like we have great novels that feature volcanoes and tsunamis 227 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: and earthquakes. There are great novels about financial crises and 228 00:11:55,559 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 1: terrorist attacks. War, of course features in many, many great novels. 229 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: Is there something about the disaster that is climate change 230 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: that makes it difficult? 231 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: Maybe? 232 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm just thinking this for the first time, 233 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 3: but it might just be that it's it's in some 234 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: ways gradual on the human scale as gradual, and it's 235 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: also disseminated so widely in so many different places. So 236 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 3: I think that's difficult to come up with a narrative 237 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 3: stance that could describe that naturally. 238 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 2: I think Richard Powers. 239 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 3: Did a really great job in the Overstory, but you know, 240 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: to say a crisis that's happening quite quickly, of course 241 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 3: in geologic time, but in human time it can appear gradual. 242 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 3: It's not happening everywhere all the time. It's a little 243 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 3: bit it's a little bit difficult. But again for me, 244 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 3: I would never even early in this book, I thought, Okay, 245 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 3: it's not a climate change novel. It's a novel about 246 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 3: the end of life. And you know, and then because 247 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 3: you know, one of the things that will really block 248 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 3: or writer up is pressure. You know, I must do this, 249 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: I must communicate this. That's not a formula for fun. 250 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 3: You know, if you went on a date, you know, 251 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 3: I must make her love me. That's a very bad vibe, 252 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 3: you know. So I think for writing a novel a 253 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 3: certain amount of relaxation. And also, you know, you really are, 254 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 3: no matter how dark the topic, you really are trying 255 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 3: to make some love, you know, make some some positive 256 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 3: energy for the reader. 257 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: And I think the endgame of a. 258 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: Novel is somehow to make both parties, reader and writer 259 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 3: feel a little bit more alert to the fact that 260 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 3: they're still alive. 261 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: That you know. 262 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 3: So that is in a certain way, if you think 263 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 3: of writers like Google or Flammery O'Connor, that's something that 264 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 3: happens regardless of topic or regardless of darkness. You know, 265 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 3: it's the It's the in the same way that a 266 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: really well beautifully done horror movie can kind of make 267 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: you feel alive. It's that's the game. 268 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: So the other theme that I want to explore here 269 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: is about guilt and regret, which feature in the book 270 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 1: in interesting ways, and they don't have to be about 271 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: climate related. They're just sort of at the end of 272 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: your life. What do you feel regret for? What are 273 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: you guilty about? Is something that all of us have 274 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: thoughts about, and not just at the end of your life. 275 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: Sometimes as you go through life, in trying to address 276 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: the guilt, is there something that you hope to get 277 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: out of it? You know, say an oil executive reads 278 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: a visual, which I am sure they will, you know, 279 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: what do you hope they might learn from it? 280 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: That's another question I feel I have to as a writer, 281 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 3: I have to really be careful of that because it 282 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 3: puts me in innately sort of condescending position for me 283 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 3: to teach you something. I am not sure that I 284 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 3: have much to teach, but I do feel I can 285 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 3: put an oil executive or anybody through a certain experience 286 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 3: so in that way, I think of myself more as 287 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 3: a roller coaster designer. You know, I don't have to 288 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 3: know your profession to make you gasp at the bottom 289 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 3: of a steep hill. And then embedded in that is 290 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 3: the idea that that's a fun, it's a I suppose 291 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 3: it's a positive experience to go through. And I think 292 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 3: mostly what happens when when I read fiction that's good, 293 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 3: All my certainties get wobbly. 294 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: You know. 295 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 3: I'm made aware of how quickly I normally rush to judgment, 296 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 3: uh from and from what a limited place. You know, 297 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 3: it's a fairly small aspiration. But you know, to say 298 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 3: to somebody, come on this journey with me, I don't 299 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 3: care who you are, I don't care what you've done. 300 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 3: But at the end of it, we're both going to 301 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 3: feel a little something, a little more i'd say a 302 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 3: little more open, but you can say it however you like. 303 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: That really is it? 304 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 3: I mean, if we think about a songwriter, what does 305 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 3: a songwriter try to do? It tries to remind you 306 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 3: you're alive for a couple of minutes, you know. So 307 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 3: you know, I don't really have a very a sort 308 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 3: of a toutological or a brother a educational intent. Really, 309 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 3: I don't because that if I do that, I'd become 310 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: a you know, a pedent. 311 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, a great novel is also giving you 312 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: an experience of being somebody else, putting yourself as a 313 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: reader in somebody else's shoes for that period of time 314 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: to really acknowledge the reality of another being, and that 315 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: can be very powerful, regardless of the type of person 316 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: you're empathizing with or what cause you're empathizing with them for. 317 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: And in this case it's an oil executive. You know, 318 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: it's very clear. Some of the dialogues are very direct, 319 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: calling out the horrors that may have happened as a 320 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,239 Speaker 1: result of his direct actions. But the reader is empathizing 321 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: with the characters. Is there a limit to that empathy? 322 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: You know, because people can do horrible things, and those 323 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: horrible things are very real. But is there a limit 324 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: to that? 325 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 3: Well, that's where I get in a bit of a 326 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 3: tangle because the words empathy, compassion, and sympathy those are 327 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 3: sometimes confusing. I think there's not a limit to the 328 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,959 Speaker 3: interest we can feel in another human being, even the 329 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 3: most terrible and I think there's no It's all positive phenomenon, 330 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 3: just to be more interested in somebody and therefore to 331 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 3: understand them better. The tricky part is that sometimes I 332 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 3: think in the West, we confuse that activity with permission 333 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: giving somehow, or a kind of a pre forgiveness. So 334 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 3: if I empathize with somebody, it doesn't matter what they 335 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 3: do to me, I don't. I think that's a misunderstanding 336 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 3: of compassion, for example. So to me, I have no 337 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: problem trying to imagine even the inner process of even 338 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: the worst person in the world. The difficulty, I think 339 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 3: is it's almost like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. When you narrate 340 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 3: somebody from inside, you warm them up. You can't help it. 341 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 3: You know, you have somebody in the esset and you 342 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 3: narrate a childhood memory, they suddenly are warming up. And 343 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 3: that's a really complicated question. It's one of the reasons that, 344 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 3: I mean, this guy in the book is bad, but 345 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 3: he's bad in that sort of two thousand George Bush 346 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: kind of way. He hasn't rejected a rules based order. 347 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 3: He gives lip. 348 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 2: Service to Enlightenment values and so on. 349 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 3: So he's kind of compared to some of the stuff 350 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 3: that's going on now, he's kind of a lightweight, but 351 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 3: that I feel I can do him. Could I do 352 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 3: somebody worse what I want to? That's a really interesting question, 353 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 3: and honestly I don't know until I try, but it 354 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 3: would be interesting for me. I have the idea of 355 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: trying to write something about the current administration, and then 356 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 3: you get into some tricky stuff. What does the mental 357 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 3: phenomenon of megalomaniac look like? 358 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 2: Can you do it? Is it interesting to read it? 359 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: All? 360 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: You know? Important questions? 361 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a difficult one as a journalist too. I mean, 362 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: you know, I've had all executives on the podcast before, 363 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: and there is this immasuate judgment that comes from a 364 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: lot of the green climate crowd saying you should never 365 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: platform these people. You shouldn't give them a voice. They 366 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: already have a platform of their own. And we've got 367 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: into this sort of territory, especially with the conversation on 368 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 1: the Internet, where people don't want to hear the other side, 369 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: and a novel of yours kind like breaks through and 370 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: enables people to look at the other side. Are there 371 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: other ways in which we could do this, not just 372 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: a novel. 373 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 3: Well, I think the conversations that you're describing would be 374 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 3: really interesting. But from as someone who does these conversations, 375 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 3: the trick is to get somebody off their stick, you know. 376 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 3: So if an oil executive comes in and he's just 377 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 3: going to resist you, then you. 378 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 2: Know, I don't know. 379 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 3: I mean, for me, the question that's in my mind 380 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 3: right now is, Okay, I'm a natural tally conflict averse person. 381 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 3: That's why I'm a writer, and I love to think 382 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 3: the best of people, and I love to pretend I 383 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: can inhabit anybody's mind. But your earlier question really haunts me. 384 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 3: You know, is there are there people one that you 385 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 3: couldn't inhabit and two that you shouldn't you know? And 386 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 3: that's interesting. But I think, to me, okay, I think 387 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 3: that understanding another person's point of view is always a superpower, 388 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 3: even if your intent is to resist them. 389 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: It's a great tool. You know. 390 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 3: If you were in a football game or something and 391 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 3: someone said, hey, would you like the chance to inhabit 392 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: the mind of the opposing coach for five seconds? 393 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: You'd be crazy not to take that chance, you know. 394 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 3: So to me, it's kind of a win win to 395 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 3: try to empathize or sympathize with other people as long 396 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: as we don't slide over into enabling and and you know, 397 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 3: like for example, now here in the US, the press 398 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 3: is really doing, in my opinion, a pretty poor job 399 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 3: of dealing with these Hedgemonts that are taking over. There's 400 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 3: a lot of enacting of older models of journalism, which is, well, 401 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: you know, we've got to show both sides. So but 402 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 3: it sometimes becomes you know, this site says hippos can fly, 403 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 3: this site says they can't. 404 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 2: Okay, we'll meet in the middle. They fly sometimes, you know. 405 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: So there's a kind of institutional sternness that that we're 406 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 3: struggling with. 407 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 2: I think to. 408 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 3: Call it, call it a spade of spade and describe 409 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 3: these things that are being done. But it's difficult in 410 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 3: the old model of journalistic fairness. 411 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: I does that? Does that seem true? Yeah? 412 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: It is. It is definitely a challenge because as soon 413 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: as you are firm about something, somebody will say that's 414 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: a biased point of view, and it's a it's a 415 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: tricky balance to play out. But maybe one other thing 416 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: that I've you know, in preparation to talk to you, 417 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: I read a bunch of your work, but I also 418 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: listened to you talk and give interviews, And I've interviewed 419 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: hundreds of people in my life, and there is a 420 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: type of person who says I don't know often, and 421 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: that typically is a writer. And I've heard you say 422 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. How I feel about that, 423 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. I am sure about that particular point 424 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: of view. That uncertainty of not knowing is not comfortable 425 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: for most people, and that's why we get so much 426 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: judgment online. Is there a way in which you can 427 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: make somebody be comfortable with that uncertainty without having to 428 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: be what you and I are, which is writing, which 429 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: is a writer, which is what our profession is. 430 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 3: I'm going to answer this question kind of backwards, maybe, 431 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 3: but it occurs to me that one of the reasons 432 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 3: people have become uncomfortable with uncertainty is that there's so 433 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 3: much space for opining. You know, we have the Internet, 434 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: and it seems to be saying, hey, what do you think? 435 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 3: Even if you don't know anything, what do you think? 436 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: And so there's a kind of an implied pressure that 437 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 3: we never don't know. For me, as a lifelong anxious person, 438 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 3: and when I started doing interviews, I found that it 439 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 3: was so much easier just to say I have no 440 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 3: idea than to falsify an answer that later I would regret. 441 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 3: So for me, it's kind of an anxiety reducing move, 442 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 3: but I think for most people these days, it's a 443 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 3: sign of weakness to not have an opinion. Which actually 444 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 3: some of the most powerful people I have ever known 445 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 3: were quite reserved, and they recognize that, you know, an 446 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 3: opinion costs you. To have an opinion costs you because 447 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 3: it nails you down at a certain point in a 448 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 3: world that is always changing and always uncertain. So a 449 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 3: person who can resist a facile opinion stays open three 450 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 3: hundred and sixty degrees, and they also receive more data. 451 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 3: That's a very, I think, a very powerful thing for 452 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 3: someone to recognize that their integrity and ultimately their ability 453 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 3: to act when needed are all improved by a certain 454 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 3: sort of reserved quality. So I tried to make it 455 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 3: a point not to express an opinion. Well, when I 456 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 3: don't know anything, that's a good one, but also when 457 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 3: the opinion isn't needed. You know, the abstract opinion is 458 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 3: a hallmark of contemporary life. What do you think about 459 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 3: these idiots who climb mount Everest? First of all, I 460 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 3: don't know, And second of all, is the world really 461 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: waiting for me to oppine? I don't think so, and 462 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 3: I found it really comforting to go. You don't have 463 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 3: to know everything. You don't have to know almost anything. 464 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: And if you factor in time, like what time do 465 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 3: I need to know that thing about Mount Everest, the 466 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 3: answer is probably never. So so much of are the 467 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 3: opining we do online is speculative and abstract, and I 468 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 3: think it also costs us something. 469 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 1: After the break, I asked George, what do you thinks 470 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: about AI and whether it complements or compromises human creativity? 471 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: What do you think? Write to the show at zero 472 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,959 Speaker 1: pod at Bloomberg dot net, And while you're at it, 473 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: writer's a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify and YouTube. It 474 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: helps new listeners find the show. You know, you've been 475 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: writing at a time and you've found success at a 476 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: time where the written word in general is in perhaps 477 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: the most fierce competition that it has been in against 478 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: other type of media. It's not cinema, Netflix streaming these days, 479 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: it's TikTok and Instagram and reels. Do you think that 480 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: the written word is losing to audio and video? And 481 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: if it is, then what are we losing as a result. 482 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 3: I think it kind of depends how you define losing. 483 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 3: I figured out a long time ago that if you 484 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 3: have a handful of dedicated reads who really know how 485 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 3: to read, that's kind of a super dense pod of 486 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 3: potential influence. People who really read deeply, they go out 487 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 3: into the world. They take that into themselves very deeply, 488 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 3: and it affects their actions. Whereas you take twenty million 489 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 3: people watching a cat fall off a counter, that's just 490 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 3: you know, as they say, like poop through a goose, 491 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 3: You know doesn't it doesn't. So those people have seen 492 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: the cat fall off the counter, and they go in 493 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 3: the world and nothing. So I become a kind of 494 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 3: a believer in super encoding my stuff with density and care. 495 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 3: I give it to you obviously, a deeply thoughtful person 496 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 3: who's very involved in living. It comes to you, it 497 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 3: opens up in your mind, and that's that's all I 498 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 3: need to know. 499 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: The other thing that has been encroaching on writing and 500 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: reading and thinking these days is artificial intelligence. And a 501 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: lot of good writing is about making somebody think. When 502 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: it comes from one human to the other, there's a 503 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: level of transfer that is amazing. Whereas with AI. You're 504 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: getting these machine generated answers to questions that every day 505 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: people have. What is your view of AI, and you know, 506 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: how do you think it compliments or destroys human creativity? 507 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 3: This might be one of those I don't know, I 508 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 3: don't know questions. I mean, I don't have a strong 509 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't have much knowledge about it's 510 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 3: use in math or science. But in writing, I can 511 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 3: just say de facto it's It shouldn't be a problem because, 512 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 3: as you intimated, I'm over here in California, I'm having 513 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 3: my day. I'm feeling things, I'm tasting things, I'm touching things, 514 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 3: I'm thinking things. I go to my desk, I somehow 515 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 3: get all of that into a made up story. But 516 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 3: it's so infused with qualitiya. You know my experience of 517 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 3: being in the world, then I send it to you. 518 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 3: And the magic is, even though we have completely different experiences, 519 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 3: it opens up in your mind. AI can imitate that 520 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 3: all it likes, but it isn't the same. It can't 521 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 3: be the same. The danger, I think is just that 522 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 3: if as AI inundates the world, our standards go down, 523 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 3: and that part of the mind that can be developed 524 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 3: to pick up that human message might go a little dull, 525 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 3: And of course, economically it means that a lot of 526 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 3: human writers may be put out of work by the 527 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 3: poor simulation of human writing. So I think that's worth 528 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 3: fighting for fighting about. 529 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not. 530 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: My sense is that AI is kind of just being 531 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 3: driven by investments, but when we're not really asking why 532 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 3: we need it. You know, there's efficiency, but who efficiency 533 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 3: always means more money for somebody, don't you know? 534 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 2: It doesn't there's no in the abstract. 535 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 3: Efficiency isn't necessarily better. I mean, I if I can 536 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 3: get my garden done efficiently by a robot, that's nice. 537 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 3: But it's nice to work in a garden. So I'm 538 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 3: not I'm not a fan of AI for writing, and 539 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: I think we should be very skeptical of it because 540 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 3: in all the sort of fun around AI to see 541 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 3: what it can do, every one of those experiments involves 542 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 3: a sacrifice, of course, of resources, but also of human involvement. 543 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 3: You know, I saw something. There's a sort of a 544 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 3: wave of commercials here where you know, there's one where 545 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 3: a man is having a woman over for dinner, and 546 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 3: he asked AI is to design a menu that will 547 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 3: indicate I'm interested but not ready for a commitment with. 548 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: The straight face. 549 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 3: So the AI cranks out the thing, he cooks it, 550 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 3: and you see the two of them dancing around the kitchen. 551 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 3: I'm like, dude, that's your job, you know, that's your job. 552 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: To come up with that menu. 553 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 3: So or another one is about a brother and sister 554 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 3: going on a road trip and the brother asked AI 555 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 3: to design the road trip. What a what a default? 556 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 3: Or what are giving up of responsibility? So those kind 557 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 3: of things, I think intelligent people can look at that 558 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 3: and go, I don't want I don't want that. 559 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 2: No, thanks, I don't want it. So I'm not I'm 560 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: not a fan. But maybe when I need brain surgery. 561 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: Maybe when I need brain surgery, I will be I 562 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 2: don't know. 563 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: Yes, that's true. There are other aspects of air that 564 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: might be quite interesting. Two other aspects of writing that 565 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: I want to touch on. So one thing that good 566 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: novels do, they're almost philosophical texts. While being entertaining, you 567 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: don't have to read philosophy, but you learn things about 568 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: life and how to be a person and how to 569 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: be a good person in the world. It is also 570 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: a tool of critical thinking. Because you've put yourself in 571 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: somebody else's mind and you see how they've thought about 572 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: a certain situation, and maybe you will never encounter the 573 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: exact same situation, but that logical steps that you've taken 574 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: teach you something about the world. Do you think the 575 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: media landscape as it exists? We talked about how it's 576 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: hard for a journalist, but do you think it's also 577 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: a problem on the reader side, that they are not 578 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: critical thinkers today, that they are not seeing what is misinformation? 579 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: What is disinformation, what it is that non responsible players 580 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: of information are doing with information, and if so, what 581 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: could be done to improve critical thinking among readers? 582 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think this. 583 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 3: Studies show that what you're saying is true that as 584 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 3: you read less, read read a complex text less, your 585 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 3: ability to follow a long argument erodes. And I believe 586 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 3: also there was some study that made a connection from 587 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 3: that to the ability to empathize, which it all makes sense, 588 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 3: you know, of course it does. I think, yes, it's 589 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 3: a big I think it's a big problem. I think 590 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 3: here in the States it's the biggest problem there there 591 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 3: are You know, you hear some of these things that 592 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 3: our leadership says, and you can't believe that anybody can 593 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 3: get through that text without walking, and yet people people 594 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 3: swallow it. So I don't know, but anecdotally in my lifetime, 595 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 3: I started out in Chicago as a young kid in 596 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 3: a Catholic school, and books were sacred. I've had experiences 597 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 3: in my life where from and I know you have 598 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 3: to an intense period of reading, I could feel my 599 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 3: mind shifting, my vocabulary improved, my ability to express myself improved, 600 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 3: and therefore the world changed. The world became a more 601 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 3: workable place because of the internal change. I'm sure of that, 602 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 3: as I am in my shoe size that that happened. 603 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 3: So if that isn't happening, then that means that the 604 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: millions of minds aren't being kicked up into this higher gear, 605 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,719 Speaker 3: aren't being made more confident and more empathy friendly. 606 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 2: That has to have a cultural effect. 607 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 3: There was a wonderful piece in The Times Ezra Klein 608 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 3: and I think Master Guessen talking about how important it 609 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 3: is in a time like this to claim the space, 610 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 3: meaning what we're doing right now. Let's just say, let's 611 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 3: just say that reading long text is a gift to 612 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 3: yourself and it's necessary for a culture. Let's just say 613 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 3: that out loud, and other people who agree with us 614 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 3: will go, yeah, that's right, I'm all good, I'm not wrong. 615 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 3: It sounds like a small effect, but I think it 616 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 3: can be world changing just for people to occupy the 617 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 3: space of truth, a benevolence of patients, of fellow feeling. 618 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 3: It's a time where I think demonstrations of those things 619 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 3: are so meaningful. You know, on Instagram you see somebody 620 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 3: here standing up to ice and being articulate, and you 621 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 3: can feel the thrill running through your body and a 622 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 3: little surge of courage. 623 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: Another writing question for you, So I, as a writer, 624 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: came out of the age during the Internet era. So 625 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: I really started with blogging all my life. My main 626 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: form of writing has been typing on a screen, and 627 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: then over the past year I have actually started writing 628 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: with pen and paper, longhand I'm writing letters. I'm writing 629 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: sometimes first draft of my story, and it's really changed 630 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: how I think and how I then convert my thinking 631 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: into that writing because it's a physical action that is 632 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: different from what I used to do, so it's just 633 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: a variation. Has made a difference, but it's also improved 634 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: my mental health. And I wondered, you know, you've taught 635 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: writing for so many years. Obviously you teach creative writing. 636 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,479 Speaker 1: You teach them to some of the best writers out there. 637 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: But if you had to give a fun exercise to 638 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: someone who's not a writer, just to get going on writing, 639 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: what would that exercise be. 640 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 3: I have one that I give and it's kind of 641 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 3: a party game. So the game is this, You're going 642 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 3: to write a two hundred word story and it has 643 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 3: to be exactly two hundreds, not one ninety nine, not 644 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 3: two oh one. But you can only use fifty words 645 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 3: to do it. So the way you play is you 646 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 3: get a piece of paper and you start your story 647 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 3: and you say, the cat sat on the table. Well, 648 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 3: that's cats. That's five words. You write those down at 649 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 3: the bottom, enumerated at the bottom of the sheet, and 650 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 3: this way you keep track of where you are. At 651 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 3: some point you hit your fifty and there's no new words. 652 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 3: So and then the other thing is you try to 653 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 3: do this in fifteen minutes. It's a lot of imposed 654 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 3: pressure and that exercise, I, you know, for it to 655 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 3: be at its best, I shouldn't say any more about it. 656 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 3: But if someone tries to do that, what they'll find 657 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 3: is that a lot of the normal anxieties associated with 658 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 3: writing go away under the pressure of the rules, and 659 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 3: people will find. You know, the one of the key 660 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 3: things in a work of fiction is rising action, you know, 661 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 3: to have that feeling of increasing complexity that automatically happens 662 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 3: in this exercise. For reasons I don't quite understand. So often, 663 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 3: if I have a young writer at Syracuse who's kind 664 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 3: of pend herself in with certain ideas and dictums and 665 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 3: mantras about how she is as a writer, you get 666 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,919 Speaker 3: in this exercise and they don't have time to think 667 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 3: about those things. They're just trying to get the thing done, 668 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 3: and often a different writer will emerge on the page, 669 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 3: and it's very, very exciting if you can do it. 670 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 3: The other condition is do it in a group and 671 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 3: let everybody know that they have to read theirs at 672 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 3: the end. So then introduces a kind of entertainment function. 673 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 3: And so it's funny, you know, if you ever believe 674 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 3: that we contain many writers within us, this is a 675 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 3: great exercise to get a different one than usual to 676 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 3: come out. 677 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: I'll also tell you a little story that happened last 678 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: night that you'd appreciate because you mentioned in a swim 679 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: in a pond in the rain a book that you've 680 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: written about writing and reading, that you could do some 681 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: of these exercises that you do in the book with others. 682 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: And you gave the example of doing it with the 683 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: story of Honest Hemingway called Cat in the Rain and 684 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,439 Speaker 1: it's twelve hundred words, and you said, cut it into 685 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: six sections and do the exercise. And last night I 686 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: was commuting back home with my wife and I told 687 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: her it's the perfect length. Can I do a story 688 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,879 Speaker 1: exercise with you? It was the end of the day. 689 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: She was tired. She's like, do you really want to 690 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, John Saunders has convinced me this is 691 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: the exercise. I think you'll love it. 692 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 2: He sounds like a very good wife. 693 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: And we did the exercise, and this morning she wakes 694 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: up and she said, can we do it again when 695 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: we commute back? Oh? 696 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 3: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. You know, if 697 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,959 Speaker 3: there's another of his stories called Indian Camp, and that's 698 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 3: a it's a darker story and it's but that it 699 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 3: works the same way. Yeah, that's that's a really uh 700 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 3: that's a fun exercise. Thank you for telling me that 701 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 3: that really is nice to hear. 702 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: So one last sort of more an advice for writers 703 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: like me, for nonfiction writers, people who write about climate change. 704 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: It's going to be a topic that we stick with 705 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 1: for decades to come. It is going to go through 706 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: as we are seeing political upswings and down swings. Thinking 707 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: as a fiction writer, but from a nonfiction context, how 708 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: do you think we can tell better climate stories? 709 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 3: Well, I'm always a big believer in particular particularity. I've 710 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 3: done some casual humor type pieces for GQ in the 711 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 3: New Yorker, and I always go in with a big idea, 712 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 3: but I'm looking for specific things to contradict or complicate 713 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 3: that idea. 714 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:27,760 Speaker 2: So I think. 715 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 3: My thought is to ground it in the cost to 716 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 3: actual people. I mean, that seems to be the one 717 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 3: thing that we can't we can't deny, you know, I 718 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 3: actually be interested in your thoughts. One of the kind 719 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 3: of unspoken hardships that I found in nonfiction writing but 720 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 3: also in fiction, is that the people, I'll put it, 721 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 3: the people I would like to convert, don't read my books. 722 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 3: You know, they don't come to my events. So often 723 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 3: you're preaching to the choir, And I wonder if if 724 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 3: you have any insights about in your experience of how 725 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 3: maybe success stories or when you've been able to reach 726 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 3: across that divide and maybe not change somebody's mind, but 727 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 3: communicate in a meaningful way with somebody who wouldn't be 728 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 3: predisposed to your ideas. 729 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: It is a constant struggle. I will say the fact 730 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: that I have interviewed for this podcast, but in general, 731 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: people who do not act in good faith on climate change, 732 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: like oil executives, which, as you said, it's an interview 733 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: where it is an honest conversation. I'm going to push back. 734 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: I'm not going to allow somebody to lie. But those 735 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: conversations the other side also walks away with respect because 736 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: they've come back on the podcast because even though the 737 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: questions were hard and they were pushed back, they felt 738 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 1: like it was a conversation where I heard them and 739 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 1: that they felt it was a fair conversation. I think 740 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 1: the value of fairness in journalism is being questioned all 741 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: the time. But it's good to be questioning that value 742 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: because that is a value that we need to live 743 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: up to, because that's one way at least that I 744 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: find you can break to the other side. 745 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 3: You know, with the oil executives you've interviewed at their core, 746 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 3: are they well, this is maybe too broad a question, 747 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 3: but do they really believe that climate change isn't real? 748 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 2: Or are they being strategically dishonest? 749 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: No oil executive I have interviewed now does not believe 750 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: that climate change is real. Now, yes, And you know, 751 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: I've been a journalist doing this for ten years. So 752 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: for the last ten years I have not met an 753 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: oil executive that denies climate change. I will say I 754 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: have mostly spoken to oil executives of multinational public corporations, 755 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: and so they have shareholders and their shareholders, our pension 756 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: funds are large asset managers who have clear understanding of 757 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: the science. If you're going to make money, you need 758 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 1: to know reality. 759 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 2: That needs to go on a bumper sticker. 760 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 3: If you make money, you have to understand reality. 761 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 2: Amen. 762 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: But you know, there are, of course climate deniers in 763 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: other places. And I haven't yet interviewed a private oil 764 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 1: company executives. I haven't interviewed the Cooke Corporation executive, for example, 765 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: or Harold Ham, and I would be very open to 766 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: interviewing them if they'd ever be interested in coming on 767 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: the show. 768 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,800 Speaker 3: But then you know that for me this book with 769 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 3: the interesting part, especially towards the end, was uh, what 770 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 3: does what does denial look like in a phased approach? 771 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 3: You know, and when somebody is in full denial they're here, 772 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 3: what are the steps they go through as they get 773 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 3: closer to admitting the truth? And that was really interesting 774 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 3: because of course, you know, you can look at yourself 775 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 3: to figure that one out. 776 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: Yes, and a lot of the justifications. That's why even 777 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 1: though you didn't speak to an executive and you simulated 778 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: this exercise through your understanding, it is the kind of 779 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: stuff that they actually go through in reality. There is 780 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: this truth that comes out even in a fictional context, 781 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: in which is I enjoyed reading visual quite a lot. 782 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 2: Thank you, George, it was such a pleasure. You've got 783 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 2: an amazing mind. I hope to encounter it again sometime. 784 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: And thank you for listening to zero Now for the 785 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 1: sound of the week. That is the sound of a 786 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,840 Speaker 1: new long distance express train being inaugurated in India. India 787 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: is planning to build out a huge network of new 788 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: and improved train lines to better the service across the country, 789 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: including its first bullet train line, which is due to 790 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: start running in twenty twenty seven. If you liked this episode, 791 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show 792 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This episode was produced by 793 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: Oscar boyd. A theme music is composed by Wonderly Special. 794 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: Thanks to Gothamnik, Samersadi, Moses andam Dora Milan and Sharan 795 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: Chan i'm Akshatrati back soon.