Speaker 1: Hey, what's up. It's Devin today, or actually rerunning one
Speaker 1: of my favorite episodes, maybe the episode that birth no
Speaker 1: such thing. This is an og It was in your
Speaker 1: feeds a year ago, so most of you probably did
Speaker 1: not hear it. So here it is, do Horses Hate Running? Remastered?
Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is Devin and this
Speaker 1: is no such thing. The show where we settle our
Speaker 1: dumb arguments in yours by actually doing the research. On
Speaker 1: today's episode, we set on an argument we've been having
Speaker 1: for nearly ten years.
Speaker 2: I think it's kind of insane to say that horses
Speaker 2: don't like to run.
Speaker 3: Most people that have a set perception about anything haven't
Speaker 3: spent very much time observing with any sort of open curiosity.
Speaker 2: H So good timing.
Speaker 4: The snakes aren't out yet, Hi, se.
Speaker 5: No, there's no no such thing, no such thing, no
Speaker 5: such thing, no such thing, no such thing.
Speaker 1: So I grew up in a suburb in New Jersey,
Speaker 1: and like most suburbs in the Northeast, there's not much
Speaker 1: to do. So we spent a lot of time going
Speaker 1: back and forth to the mall. At one point, I
Speaker 1: actually work at the mall, and to avoid a lot
Speaker 1: of the traffic on the main roads, we would take
Speaker 1: the back roads. And on these back roads there were
Speaker 1: a ton of horse farms, so we'd often be driving
Speaker 1: back and forth past horses, and I start to notice
Speaker 1: every single time we would drive past these horse farms,
Speaker 1: they were never running. I don't see, you know, up
Speaker 1: to that point, especially, I've not seen a lot of
Speaker 1: horses in my life, you know, not up close. But
Speaker 1: we see all these pictures, all this what I'll call
Speaker 1: propaganda as children of horses running, being majestic. And I
Speaker 1: was like, how come every time when there are no
Speaker 1: people around on this farm, the horses are just standing still,
Speaker 1: mostly eating, not really moving around much at all, not
Speaker 1: even a trot, no gallops, no barely a gallop. They're
Speaker 1: just standing there, right. And I'm like, if I were
Speaker 1: to put a group, you know, and this is when
Speaker 1: they're together, you know, the families together is rare. I
Speaker 1: would see one horse alone and usually there's two or
Speaker 1: three of them, and what do you call it? A pin?
Speaker 1: I don't know what you call those things, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know the fence. Then this is how much
Speaker 1: I know about horse, right, And I was like, if
Speaker 1: I had that same area, and I put three dogs.
Speaker 1: At some point from all these trips, I would see
Speaker 1: those dogs running, And to this day, I have never
Speaker 1: seen horses run in person without humans telling them to
Speaker 1: do it or forcing them to do it. So do it, okay.
Speaker 1: So then I started to think, do horses even like running? Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think horses like to run, because if they
Speaker 1: like to run, they would be running when humans weren't around.
Speaker 1: I guess I never really said this out loud until
Speaker 1: we started working together, because it's always been something that's
Speaker 1: percolating in my mind. Yea, And you know, if we'd
Speaker 1: get into our dumb arguments and have our dumb conversations.
Speaker 1: And I brought it up to both of you one
Speaker 1: day and I was like, actually, I don't think horses
Speaker 1: like to run.
Speaker 2: So now all of our listeners are in the exact
Speaker 2: same position that no, right after you. But think about it, silent,
Speaker 2: but think about it.
Speaker 1: Think about it. When have you seen horses run right
Speaker 1: in person? We're gonna get later. We will get to
Speaker 1: the videos, the documentaries, the movies. Yeah, so called, I
Speaker 1: got lots to say about that, But just when in
Speaker 1: your life have you just seen a horse just going
Speaker 1: for it, like sprinting, just like I'm running. Oh, I
Speaker 1: like this.
Speaker 6: I can't say I have. I've also, you know, like you,
Speaker 6: I haven't really been around the horses.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I guess it's tough for me to recall because I
Speaker 2: haven't seen any horses really.
Speaker 1: So neither one of you have seen horses on a
Speaker 1: farm running on their own. No, no, okay, I think
Speaker 1: we could maybe end the podcast. Yeah, so I guess
Speaker 1: maybe I should just say what, like to restate my
Speaker 1: opinion is, I don't think horses like to run. I
Speaker 1: think horses are good at running. I think they're majestic creatures.
Speaker 1: They're very strong, they're very powerful. They look beautiful running.
Speaker 1: But I don't think like in terms of like if
Speaker 1: horses got to decide whether or not they would like
Speaker 1: to run, I don't think most horses they would run
Speaker 1: like running. This is just based on what I've seen,
Speaker 1: and you know, you know, everyone that I've talked to,
Speaker 1: I haven't talked to anyone who's said they've seen horses
Speaker 1: run for fun. That being said, I don't know very
Speaker 1: many horse people. I don't spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: with a lot of horse people, but as a casual observer. Look,
Speaker 1: that's why I bring up the dog example, right, because
Speaker 1: even if something manny doesn't really fuck with dogs, Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: he has seen a dog run.
Speaker 2: I've seen them run all the time. Example is pretty powerful.
Speaker 1: Right, And it's like usually dogs running, no human interaction.
Speaker 1: You go to a dog park, all the humans, none
Speaker 1: of the humans are moving, The dogs are going off.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean the dogs they have, you know, really
Speaker 6: fast bursts of energy. I wonder if horses on their
Speaker 6: own might do.
Speaker 1: That, you know, And we're just kinda like I have
Speaker 1: not seen it, not once, but like, so I guess
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, where do we all stand on this?
Speaker 2: I think it's kind of insane to say that horses
Speaker 2: don't like to run. I think, okay, initial prompt was
Speaker 2: horses hate running, which is.
Speaker 1: That's a little strong. I am a little strong, but
Speaker 1: sometimes you gotta get people's attention, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think my initial, uh kind of reaction to
Speaker 2: this is I would imagine that, like humans, some horses
Speaker 2: might like running, some might not.
Speaker 1: I don't like running.
Speaker 2: I'll do it for exercise, but there are some people
Speaker 2: who do enjoy running, so I will. I think my
Speaker 2: initial reaction would just to be that it's probably similar
Speaker 2: to and even so that's still a very small portion
Speaker 2: of what you do if you're a runner.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2: So it's like.
Speaker 6: Thinking, like, you know, you you watch like a nature documentary,
Speaker 6: and we'll talk about documentaries.
Speaker 1: More especially numaries, but I'm kind of saying that.
Speaker 6: But my point is that you only see kind of
Speaker 6: the extreme bits in those where you're not seeing most
Speaker 6: Most of life and this goes for humans as well
Speaker 6: as animals is pretty much doing nothing and then there's
Speaker 6: moments of extreme activity happening. What I mean is like
Speaker 6: you watch physical documentary and it's like, okay, you see
Speaker 6: the the predator attacking.
Speaker 2: Most of the time, these animals are just sitting around
Speaker 2: drinking water.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So I kind of view that similarly to the
Speaker 6: the running where it's like, yeah, we'll run for five minutes,
Speaker 6: you know, kind of get our little moves on, and
Speaker 6: then yeah, we're just gonna chill out eat, Like why
Speaker 6: would we especially on a farm in the back roads. Yeah,
Speaker 6: there's not much going on, so yeah, we're just gonna chill.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think what's interesting it around early in the morning,
Speaker 2: you know, before the cars are coming back. I think,
Speaker 2: what's interesting about this question is that it is true
Speaker 2: that growing up, we are kind of led to believe that, like,
Speaker 2: horses are running all the time, all the time.
Speaker 1: I ride like the wind, the bull's eye.
Speaker 2: Run, the horses run, the horses to ride.
Speaker 8: Horses run.
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen a video image of a horse
Speaker 1: not running? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Like, right now, I'm gonna type horse into Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: the default, those into Google, And what are the images? Immediately?
Speaker 2: The first horse is a horse bounting.
Speaker 1: Right, And and it's kind of interesting because it's with
Speaker 1: other animals. But I said, I'd say outside of like
Speaker 1: a cheetah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna see cheatah, you know cheetah because.
Speaker 1: We love to talk about how fast they are. So yeah,
Speaker 1: but those images bring going to see other animals, just like.
Speaker 2: You love to talk about love.
Speaker 3: Do we not?
Speaker 2: Do we not talk about When I was in middle school,
Speaker 2: I was talking a lot about how fast cheetahs were.
Speaker 1: Insane, But we are fed this horses run, run, run, run,
Speaker 1: And I think part of it, part of it, I
Speaker 1: think is innocent, and that horses are very good at running.
Speaker 1: There they're you know, someone say, built to run. But
Speaker 1: I think part of it too, is that from humans
Speaker 1: very first interactions with horses, we like to make them
Speaker 1: do ship, whether that's pulling things, racing, racing, and in
Speaker 1: order for us to feel better about making them do
Speaker 1: that stuff, even just transit like yep, from one place
Speaker 1: to the next. Right, that's a lot harder to do
Speaker 1: if in you her mind you're thinking maybe this animal
Speaker 1: actually doesn't like doing this.
Speaker 2: So you asked this question earlier, have you ever seen
Speaker 2: a horse running? And in person? We haven't, but there's
Speaker 2: you know, countless footage.
Speaker 1: Of this footage. So yeah, let's talk about the footage.
Speaker 2: So what do you think is happening about the horses
Speaker 2: that are running in the footage?
Speaker 1: Okay? What type of footage be talking about here?
Speaker 2: Because they're just being a field galloping.
Speaker 1: Usually where's let's think about this, right, beautiful majestic, the
Speaker 1: sun sun setting. What is usually an angle we see
Speaker 1: of these horses is it? Is it down below bird's
Speaker 1: eye point of view?
Speaker 8: Wow?
Speaker 1: Okay, so what if we're we got a bird's eye
Speaker 1: view of the horses, right, So usually when we get
Speaker 1: bird's eye views of things, especially horses out in the wild,
Speaker 1: wearing something I like to call helicopter, right.
Speaker 2: Like you like to call them that.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me ex this. Are helicopters quiet? Are those
Speaker 1: quiet machines? Can a helicopter just pull up here real
Speaker 1: quick and no one noticed that a helicopter's outside? No,
Speaker 1: they're really loud.
Speaker 2: So you're saying the horses are running because they're.
Speaker 1: Horses are easily spooked. That's like the everyone knows that.
Speaker 2: The second fact, yeah, the horses are You ever see
Speaker 2: the horses out there?
Speaker 1: Okay, I have been to a horse show before. Once again,
Speaker 1: none of the horses doing anything, but besides when the
Speaker 1: people are making them do. But you know there's some
Speaker 1: horses they have the blinders on because they can't see
Speaker 1: something to the side or they're lose their them mine. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: and you gotta think about horses in a wild survival.
Speaker 1: If something is coming, if a threat, a predator is
Speaker 1: coming you, that's when you gotta run.
Speaker 3: Go that.
Speaker 2: Every time they're running, it's only because.
Speaker 1: Of what you're asking me. The question was about nature documentaries, right,
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is that in these documentaries, most
Speaker 1: of what you're seeing is from a bird's eye point
Speaker 1: of view. A helicopter very noisy, and the horses are
Speaker 1: running because they're running away from the damn helicopter.
Speaker 2: But if you're at some other perch, like on a
Speaker 2: mountain top.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, look, I'll also can side that horses run
Speaker 1: to get from one place to another.
Speaker 2: Yeah they must.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's like, hey, we got to go over
Speaker 1: there and get some water, let's run. That don't mean
Speaker 1: they enjoy doing it.
Speaker 2: You know, why wouldn't they walk to the water.
Speaker 1: Because it takes longer. And let's just put this out
Speaker 1: there in terms of I don't know of either one
Speaker 1: of you have actually consumed anything in regards to nature documentaries,
Speaker 1: but they're all full of shit. Yeah that I do all.
Speaker 1: That's kind of my point before all of nature documentary.
Speaker 1: It's not even just in regards to horses, regards to
Speaker 1: all animals. They fake a lot of stuff in nature documentaries.
Speaker 1: The sound is all made up. Yeah, the I was
Speaker 1: listening to a story the other day, a podcast story.
Speaker 1: I didn't read it in the book, but uh, thank you.
Speaker 3: What are you?
Speaker 1: What are those things called lemons? Lemon lemmings? Yeah you
Speaker 1: know that that. Yeah, they don't actually do that, that's
Speaker 1: made up. So what so like there's this famous documentary
Speaker 1: of like a bunch of lemmings, like one the ideas
Speaker 1: that one runs and jumps off a cliff, and they're
Speaker 1: all so stupid. They're just like, oh, you did it,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it. Hm, So that that's become like
Speaker 1: a saying.
Speaker 9: Now, one of these is a nasty little rodent called
Speaker 9: the lemmings. There's an actual living legend or it said
Speaker 9: of this tiny animal that it commits mass suicide by
Speaker 9: rushing into the sea and droll.
Speaker 1: Most people think it was popularised by this Disney documentary
Speaker 1: from the fifties, and this Canadian journalist like looked into
Speaker 1: it and he found that they ligally like fake the
Speaker 1: whole thing. The these lemmings were like brought in from
Speaker 1: a part of Canada where like they're not even native
Speaker 1: to and the filmmakers were like literally pushing them off
Speaker 1: the cliff.
Speaker 9: They reached the final precipice, this is the last chance
Speaker 9: to turn back overre they go casting themselves bodily out
Speaker 9: into space.
Speaker 2: But it's all made up, Okay, physically pushing them off
Speaker 2: the cliff or like scaring them to jump.
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, they're forcing them off the cliff,
Speaker 1: forcing them off the cliff insane. You know, this didn't
Speaker 1: come from nowhere. Lemmings do dissipate from an area, right,
Speaker 1: Like they go to an area, they eat up all
Speaker 1: the food and then they're like, all right, we got
Speaker 1: to get out of here.
Speaker 3: Leave.
Speaker 1: So the thinking is that like people saw this happening,
Speaker 1: and sometimes they do all like get all you know,
Speaker 1: lined up on the cliff when they're doing this, But
Speaker 1: they're not like meaning suicide.
Speaker 2: They're not trying to fall off the Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just trying to move on something. They're trying
Speaker 1: to just leave the area. They're not like it's time
Speaker 1: to die. Well, I'm gonna say if I can find.
Speaker 2: It, we'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Knowing how set up in kind of fake those documentaries are,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't surprise me if in this footage of horses
Speaker 2: running in the wild that they did something to make
Speaker 2: the first before they take I don't know if it's
Speaker 2: a helicopter scaring them, but it wouldn't surprise me if
Speaker 2: they did something. I also think something we're kind of
Speaker 2: ascribing human conceptions of liking and I don't know how
Speaker 2: to really talk about animals and the pleasure they perceive like, yeah,
Speaker 2: do any animals do anything purely because they like it?
Speaker 2: Even even we talked about the dogs running.
Speaker 1: Outside, I think I think I think he loves running.
Speaker 6: But I mean, is it or is it just like
Speaker 6: their bodies saying like you need to exercise and you're
Speaker 6: you have all this energy to use?
Speaker 1: I think yeah, but I think he enjoys the act
Speaker 1: of running. The only thing I would con see is
Speaker 1: to Manny's point, I think horses are more similar to
Speaker 1: humans than be getting credit for. I think they have
Speaker 1: different personalities. Some of those motherfuckers might like to run.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, did we talk about the horses.
Speaker 1: We haven't even brought up the racetrack stuff because I
Speaker 1: know that's we all can agree that's bad. Well, we
Speaker 1: know they're good at running. They're good at running.
Speaker 2: They're being controlled and.
Speaker 1: They're bread to run anything like they're being Their whole
Speaker 1: life is being reinforced to run. So I think that
Speaker 1: is a different type of horse than a horse in
Speaker 1: a while, because it's like, yeah, literally, your existence its
Speaker 1: dependent on running like racehorses. Yeah, I don't think you
Speaker 1: really have a choice on whether you like it.
Speaker 3: You just do it.
Speaker 1: I think horses in the wild are There's probably some
Speaker 1: lazy horses. There's probably some horses who love to run
Speaker 1: and want to run. And I think if we had
Speaker 1: to like give horses a survey, I think more horses
Speaker 1: would not like running versus horses that enjoy running.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. So why why do you say that?
Speaker 1: Because I've never seen a horse front.
Speaker 2: All right, So how would we try to get an
Speaker 2: answer for this? Then that's a good question.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's a lot of I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are invested in this the
Speaker 1: truth not getting out.
Speaker 2: It goes back to the documentaries. Yeah, I guess a
Speaker 2: good question is why do you think, uh, it's it's
Speaker 2: been important for humankind to to beat into us that
Speaker 2: horses enjoy running.
Speaker 1: To my earlier point, yeah, everything we do with horses
Speaker 1: involves them moving. This is the first domino if the truth,
Speaker 1: If the truth comes out that these horses are not
Speaker 1: really down for that and you are forced them to
Speaker 1: do that, I think people have to feel very differently
Speaker 1: about the way that we interact with horses day to day.
Speaker 1: So I think it's a lot easier to just say, hey,
Speaker 1: they're good at.
Speaker 3: This, They like it.
Speaker 1: They like when my daughter Susie is riding it every
Speaker 1: Tuesday for two hours and jumping over for stuff, because
Speaker 1: that's what they that's what they would do in a while.
Speaker 1: They just like doing that. So like we're giving her
Speaker 1: the opportunity to do that. And I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: think horses. I think if you let that horse be
Speaker 1: left alone, then have a little Susie riding it, it
Speaker 1: would not be running and jumping it and it will
Speaker 1: be standing there eating some food. Run when it needs to,
Speaker 1: but otherwise leave me alone, Susie. I don't want to
Speaker 1: just be out here running.
Speaker 2: So we tell ourselves horses enjoy running to rationalize what
Speaker 2: we do to them.
Speaker 1: Yes, we're saying absolutely, wow, absolutely.
Speaker 2: How can we go about trying to get to the
Speaker 2: bottom of this?
Speaker 1: We got to find some people who are not in
Speaker 1: the horse industrial complex. After the break, we talked to
Speaker 1: someone who left the horse industrial complex and take a
Speaker 1: journey that made us reevaluate our entire relationship to animals.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: Hello, hi, So we got a horse walking out to us.
Speaker 1: So we got some interesting responses to last week's episode
Speaker 1: about does religion make you happier? So we heard from
Speaker 1: Cody from Connecticut, who actually has a correction to you
Speaker 1: issue to Manny. Manny said that his confirmation saint was
Speaker 1: Saint Andrew because he's the saint of lost things. But
Speaker 1: in reality the saint of lost things is Saint Anthony.
Speaker 1: So be on the lookout for Manny's notes apology forgetting
Speaker 1: that one incorrect. And then we heard from Ben and Omaha,
Speaker 1: who had a possible alternative to religion.
Speaker 10: A lot of people in Europe have mentioned that European
Speaker 10: soccer has replaced your religion for them, well at least
Speaker 10: Christian and for them, I got football has become religion
Speaker 10: for them, and I mean it makes sense. For English
Speaker 10: soccer fans, they sting for two hours. They congregate for
Speaker 10: two hours every week together. Some people have season tickets
Speaker 10: for the generational so they've known the people who are
Speaker 10: sitting next to them at the seat. So yeah, if
Speaker 10: you wanted to look at something.
Speaker 7: That was non giving thanks to some foreign human that
Speaker 7: may or may not exist, it seems like football flash
Speaker 7: soccer is one of those venues.
Speaker 1: All right, fellas, we're back in this studio, so we've
Speaker 1: had this question for a while, and I think sort
Speaker 1: of a tough thing with this question is finding the
Speaker 1: right person to talk to, because, as we've discussed in
Speaker 1: Part one, in the eight hundred previous conversations we've had
Speaker 1: about this topic, there's a lot of biases, involves.
Speaker 3: A lot.
Speaker 1: On this issue. I don't you know, I don't really
Speaker 1: trust anybody on it, but I think I can't even
Speaker 1: trust your own eyes. Can't trust well, I can't trust
Speaker 1: my own eyes, which is why we're here. Sure, but
Speaker 1: I think I found the perfect person for this, okay,
Speaker 1: because she's someone who has experience on both sides of defense.
Speaker 1: Let's say, my name is Randhurst.
Speaker 3: I've got a twenty year background as a professional horsewoman,
Speaker 3: relatively successful as both a horse trainer and a farrier.
Speaker 1: I had to look up what the hell that is
Speaker 1: r F A R R I E R. This shows
Speaker 1: how little wind aout horses as someone who like trims
Speaker 1: horse who's okay, like professionally so you know she's a trainer,
Speaker 1: She rode horses, she spent twenty years of horses. Let's
Speaker 1: just say go for this.
Speaker 2: And what does she do now?
Speaker 1: She left the she actually left the industry entirely. Wow, okay,
Speaker 1: why did she leave? Well, we're going to get to.
Speaker 1: So she grew up in Texas. Manny was born in Dallas.
Speaker 2: I didn't actually grow up there, that doesn't count.
Speaker 1: But she joked that where she grew up there were
Speaker 1: actually more horses than people in our hometown.
Speaker 3: I grew up in rodeo Country, USA, going to rodeos
Speaker 3: as a kid, being around horses. Like most girls, I
Speaker 3: looked at horses as a symbol of freedom and power
Speaker 3: and beauty, and was, you know, obviously drawn to that
Speaker 3: for all the reasons that most people are.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: Din Ren went on to have a pretty successful career
Speaker 1: as a professional horsewoman. She said her transformation to where
Speaker 1: she is now then happened overnight, but there was like
Speaker 1: one really big catalyst that put her on the path
Speaker 1: that she's on today.
Speaker 3: I ended up in this very esoteric school of horsemanship
Speaker 3: out of Russia called npsar Off Outicle.
Speaker 11: Thanks to the school's method, such relations between horse and
Speaker 11: man now turn out to be possible without the use
Speaker 11: of any special painful device in its mouth, without punishment,
Speaker 11: without any means of control.
Speaker 1: And I had no.
Speaker 3: Intention of coming to the conclusions that I did, But
Speaker 3: I thought, here's a man, the guy that's leading the
Speaker 3: school at the time that can do things that I've
Speaker 3: never seen done before. And I was really advanced in
Speaker 3: my own horsemanship skills, so that was saying something.
Speaker 1: And RHN was shocked because she said, unlike what she
Speaker 1: was doing there today, what this guy was doing didn't
Speaker 1: involve any actual training whatsoever.
Speaker 3: And for one, you have to understand there's all sorts
Speaker 3: of different ways to modify an animal's behavior or a
Speaker 3: human's behavior from the perspective of having an unequal power
Speaker 3: dynamic where somebody has control of the situation and can
Speaker 3: manipulate coerce force. So I'm speaking to absolutely, in any
Speaker 3: forms of training, it doesn't matter how positive you perceive
Speaker 3: the training to be. And I switched that with listening, feeling, intuiting,
Speaker 3: and leading from an embodied place that made the animal
Speaker 3: feel very safe to be with me because I was
Speaker 3: not being dishonest on any level.
Speaker 1: And then Wren actually took those tools and tried to
Speaker 1: put them into practice, and.
Speaker 3: I started working with this very untamed stallion that was
Speaker 3: potentially really dangerous, and after having a long successful career
Speaker 3: as a trainer, what I was applying with this horse
Speaker 3: was completely dismantling everything I had ever thought to be true,
Speaker 3: and it completely shattered my reality, both as a horse trainer,
Speaker 3: but also just as a human being on this planet
Speaker 3: looking at what the fuck are we doing dominating nature
Speaker 3: in this way and separating ourselves from each other and
Speaker 3: from the natural order of things.
Speaker 1: So the school completely shattered Ren's worldview and her philosophy
Speaker 1: of like how human should be in here act with animals.
Speaker 3: Everything we think we know about horses is viewed through
Speaker 3: the lens of our own domestication, rather through the lens
Speaker 3: of actually understanding what it means to be horse much
Speaker 3: less animal.
Speaker 1: So Run does still have horses now, but she's not
Speaker 1: like out there riding them or like forcing them to
Speaker 1: run around.
Speaker 3: I have undomesticated my herd, which basically means I have
Speaker 3: returned them to their own emotional sovereignty, which means that
Speaker 3: I have allowed them to be guided by their own
Speaker 3: intrinsic forces rather than my perceived ideas of what is
Speaker 3: good and not good for them. And that has rewritten
Speaker 3: my truth around what horses need, who horses are, and
Speaker 3: what is actually good for them. And when you spend
Speaker 3: a lot of time with wild or undomesticated animals, you
Speaker 3: get to have an entirely different experience of what it
Speaker 3: means to be fully embodied animal. Our entire society is
Speaker 3: set up to keep you from doing that, because domestication
Speaker 3: is the intentional interruption of emotional developments so that someone
Speaker 3: can control your behavior, and that is the essence of
Speaker 3: capitalism and society as it currently exists. They still are
Speaker 3: selling you the field goods instead of the feel at alls.
Speaker 2: She took the red pillow I feel good versus is
Speaker 2: operating on a different level. She's on a different planet.
Speaker 2: Let me get this straight. So basically, Ren is making
Speaker 2: an argument as to why we shouldn't domesticate horses, and
Speaker 2: basically if the specific argument is that domestication is a
Speaker 2: form of like trauma, so like if you domesticate an animal,
Speaker 2: their development is constantly being interrupted, Yes, because we're interfering
Speaker 2: in their lives that they were not built well, they
Speaker 2: weren't built for us to do that.
Speaker 1: And I think her takeaway is like we should just
Speaker 1: be focused on ourselves and not like trying to domesticate others,
Speaker 1: and that's including animals. But before we go too deep
Speaker 1: down that rabbit hole, I wanted to to ask her,
Speaker 1: you know how the horses are behaving now that she's
Speaker 1: changed the way that she's interacting with them.
Speaker 3: So I have a herd of twenty that I still
Speaker 3: care for. And this most significant difference is the herd
Speaker 3: is just very very peaceful more, I mean just all
Speaker 3: the time, like they listen, They're very cooperative. They don't
Speaker 3: act like horses that have anything to worry about. Everything
Speaker 3: is easy to do. If I need to trim somebody's hooves,
Speaker 3: if I need to do vet care, if I need
Speaker 3: to manage them, if I need to move them from
Speaker 3: place to place. We don't use any training, there's no manipulation,
Speaker 3: and yet there is a cohesiveness and a harmony and
Speaker 3: a cooperative state of being here just because they know
Speaker 3: that they are cared for and safe and don't have
Speaker 3: to you know, they know they're always going to be heard.
Speaker 2: Now that that's how she behaves towards horses, like that's
Speaker 2: her new kind of line of thinking. Did you ask
Speaker 2: her like if horses are running on their own more
Speaker 2: willingly or doing it less often because of that new dynamic.
Speaker 2: So basically, without the human interaction, what are they doing?
Speaker 3: These guys run when they play, They definitely have bouts
Speaker 3: of that, We're all wake up and see the whole
Speaker 3: herd running around and rearing up and bucking, and they're just,
Speaker 3: you know, feeling good in themselves and it's intrinsically motivated
Speaker 3: and you can tell they're being joyful because they're playing.
Speaker 3: There's also times where they get scared of something and
Speaker 3: then they run because it's instinctual. They never run because
Speaker 3: anybody's telling them to, because there's nobody to do that.
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone can say horses love to run
Speaker 3: about any horse all the time, Like just like I
Speaker 3: can't say you love whatever you're drinking right now all
Speaker 3: the time. Like there are moments I love to run
Speaker 3: because it feels good to do so, but those moments
Speaker 3: are not consistent, they're not every day and it has
Speaker 3: nothing to do with who I am. And if anybody
Speaker 3: perceived that about me, I'd be like, you don't know
Speaker 3: shit about me, Like why would you even say that?
Speaker 3: And that's we typically project. I mean, that's what domestication.
Speaker 3: It's like a constant projection of trauma from the human world.
Speaker 2: That is insightful to me because it's it's basically the
Speaker 2: answers horses do like running when they want to run,
Speaker 2: which is I know that's not super novel, but like
Speaker 2: it does help me. We're about it, Yeah, because when
Speaker 2: most of the time horses are running, they don't want
Speaker 2: to it's like a race, or when we're saying yeah,
Speaker 2: or work or labor. Yeah, even our question yeah in
Speaker 2: her art, in her view, is probably a form of
Speaker 2: domesticating that well yeah, well yeah, yeah, because it's the
Speaker 2: idea that's perpetuating the world that where horses.
Speaker 1: Or do.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like the whole point of this question was to
Speaker 1: be like everyone thinks horses love to run, I don't
Speaker 1: think they do. And it's like so then now we've
Speaker 1: gone to the other extreme of saying like, no, horses
Speaker 1: don't like running at all at any time, rather than like,
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's kind of complex sometimes individual creatures.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and there's different moods and different things.
Speaker 1: And even all the horses that like to run may
Speaker 1: not want to run on one day versus another day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's but it's the most logical explanation. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it seems like it makes the most sense. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: seems like another kind of framing we had was if
Speaker 2: horses were left to their own devices, would they be
Speaker 2: running more or less? It sounds like the answer is less.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's true. And even talking to people
Speaker 1: who I would say, like really disagree or run, they
Speaker 1: had a similar sentiment that like, no, horses aren't just
Speaker 1: going to be out there sprinting just because like they
Speaker 1: aren't like cross country runners. That's not the case. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree with that.
Speaker 6: It sounds like even the horses that made like running
Speaker 6: probably aren't doing it for you know, vast lengths of
Speaker 6: time or across great distances, even if humans had no
Speaker 6: impact on their their lives.
Speaker 2: Which is contrary to kind of what we grew up believing.
Speaker 3: I really think that the more healed we become in
Speaker 3: our own animal body, the less domestication is even interesting.
Speaker 3: And there's a reason that wild animals out there aren't
Speaker 3: domesticating each other because they don't need to and there's
Speaker 3: no value in that. So when you talk to these
Speaker 3: other people and ask them that question, it's like, well,
Speaker 3: what happens when you remove all of your influence from
Speaker 3: the horse? Are they still running? The answer is no,
Speaker 3: they're not, because their horses are so freaking traumatized that
Speaker 3: that's why they stand around and past yours allay and
Speaker 3: do nothing. And that's not black and white either, because
Speaker 3: the better a horse is loved and cared for, the
Speaker 3: better they feel in their body, and the better you
Speaker 3: feel in the body, the more you want to move it.
Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean they're out there running around for
Speaker 3: the sake of running around, Because no healthy animal is
Speaker 3: unaware of the importance of the conservation of energy, especially
Speaker 3: a prey animal. You're not gonna have horses running around
Speaker 3: expending energy for no reason when they might need to
Speaker 3: run away from a threat when it comes. But I mean,
Speaker 3: most people that have a set perception about anything haven't
Speaker 3: spent very much time observing with any sort of open
Speaker 3: curiosity at all about the thing that they're perceiving.
Speaker 2: You might not need them, but I brought the gloves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've loved you. And to End's point, it felt
Speaker 1: weird for three guys to do a whole podcast about horses,
Speaker 1: about us actually spending any time of horses. So we
Speaker 1: went back to those New Jersey back roads and visited
Speaker 1: one of those horse farms where this whole thing started.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the destination will be on the left.
Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker 2: We were pulling up on the ranch here and some
Speaker 2: horses outside, and I will say not a single one
Speaker 2: of them are running right now. In fact, not only
Speaker 2: are they not running, there standing completely still.
Speaker 1: Okay, so one of them was walking.
Speaker 2: Let's go inside and see what's up or outside, don't
Speaker 2: go outside, that's right.
Speaker 1: We took a tour of Bergen County Horse Rescue with Aaron,
Speaker 1: who's the founder.
Speaker 5: Give me a little.
Speaker 1: So we're doing a podcast about whether or not horses
Speaker 1: love running. Okay, and Jen who's the equine manager.
Speaker 2: So good timing.
Speaker 4: The snakes aren't out yet, Hi, Satners, So now all
Speaker 4: of it's gonna come over and say hi to us. Hey,
Speaker 4: and as soon as as soon as Saturn comes over here,
Speaker 4: Saturn is going to chase her away because Saturn's top
Speaker 4: horse and all of us on the bottom. So now
Speaker 4: watch Saturn's years are going to do. She's going to
Speaker 4: chase her away.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, she's out, and Saturn's gonna come and say hi.
Speaker 8: So yeah, they really they have all different personalities. People
Speaker 8: will ask me the horses know their names, and they do,
Speaker 8: but I believe that they all know their names, but
Speaker 8: ninety percent of them are just going to ignore you.
Speaker 1: Anyway some more cat cat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 8: It's like, okay, all right, Murphy though, you call Murphy
Speaker 8: and he comes right and I swear he loves it.
Speaker 8: And we had him for probably two weeks and he
Speaker 8: already learned his name. Wow, which is pretty wild.
Speaker 3: This is Murphy, Oh Murphy, This is drop kick Murphy.
Speaker 1: Okay, so Ione running in the corner. Now it's more
Speaker 1: of a trot, okay, all right, all right, okay, I
Speaker 1: won't call it that.
Speaker 4: A ruck.
Speaker 2: Definitely moving a little bit, but this is essentially like
Speaker 2: the equivalent of me, like trying to beat the crosswalk
Speaker 2: time yet light little dog, and then I'm done after
Speaker 2: ten seconds.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's the weather. This is more of a lazy
Speaker 8: day for them. The sun is strong, so you probably
Speaker 8: in a little while a lot of them will be
Speaker 8: laying laying down and sleeping.
Speaker 1: Now you said, you know, you got to exercise them,
Speaker 1: so left to their own devices, I guess they're not.
Speaker 2: They're hang Media that you see about horses is always
Speaker 2: about how much they are running all the time, and like, right,
Speaker 2: there's movies, are.
Speaker 8: You know, Oh seriously, well, yeah, I watch even some
Speaker 8: of the stuff, and you know they're on these rides
Speaker 8: throughout the United States there and I'm like, like, the
Speaker 8: horses need to rest heard they meanwhile, it's like a movie.
Speaker 8: I'm like, they better water those horses soon. Probably one
Speaker 8: of the most animals that there's a lot of misconceptions about.
Speaker 8: You know, people just don't know enough about them, and
Speaker 8: the stuff that's out there for the general public is
Speaker 8: really miss misinformed.
Speaker 2: I was gonna trying to eat your micah.
Speaker 10: Yah h.
Speaker 1: No such Thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Norh Friedman
Speaker 1: and Me Devin Joseph. Theme song by Manny This is
Speaker 1: I've always been the first to say I love you
Speaker 1: by certain self. Our guests this week were Aaron and
Speaker 1: Jenny from the Bergen County Horse Rescue and Ren Hurst,
Speaker 1: who has a book out titled The Wisdom of Wildness.
Speaker 1: Thanks to our friends for their notes, Julia Lindsay, Miata Graf,
Speaker 1: Catherine Isaac, Sarah Floyd, and TRUTHYPJ from Search Engine Visit
Speaker 1: No Such Thing that show to see photos of us
Speaker 1: with Murphy at the Bergen County Horse Rescue and some
Speaker 1: of our wild horses hate running merch that we made
Speaker 1: back in twenty nineteen, Pa.
Speaker 2: Pa, I've always been the first to say you lost me,
Speaker 2: But I want to know what it feels like for
Speaker 2: you to want me still
Speaker 1: For someone I care about, someone who makes me sick,
Speaker 1: to work for this