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Speaker 1: Hey, what's up. It's Devin today, or actually rerunning one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite episodes, maybe the episode that birth no

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Speaker 1: such thing. This is an og It was in your

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Speaker 1: feeds a year ago, so most of you probably did

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Speaker 1: not hear it. So here it is, do Horses Hate Running? Remastered?

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Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is Devin and this

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Speaker 1: is no such thing. The show where we settle our

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Speaker 1: dumb arguments in yours by actually doing the research. On

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Speaker 1: today's episode, we set on an argument we've been having

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Speaker 1: for nearly ten years.

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Speaker 2: I think it's kind of insane to say that horses

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Speaker 2: don't like to run.

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Speaker 3: Most people that have a set perception about anything haven't

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Speaker 3: spent very much time observing with any sort of open curiosity.

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Speaker 2: H So good timing.

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Speaker 4: The snakes aren't out yet, Hi, se.

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Speaker 5: No, there's no no such thing, no such thing, no

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Speaker 5: such thing, no such thing, no such thing.

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Speaker 1: So I grew up in a suburb in New Jersey,

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Speaker 1: and like most suburbs in the Northeast, there's not much

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Speaker 1: to do. So we spent a lot of time going

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Speaker 1: back and forth to the mall. At one point, I

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Speaker 1: actually work at the mall, and to avoid a lot

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Speaker 1: of the traffic on the main roads, we would take

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Speaker 1: the back roads. And on these back roads there were

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Speaker 1: a ton of horse farms, so we'd often be driving

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Speaker 1: back and forth past horses, and I start to notice

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Speaker 1: every single time we would drive past these horse farms,

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Speaker 1: they were never running. I don't see, you know, up

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Speaker 1: to that point, especially, I've not seen a lot of

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Speaker 1: horses in my life, you know, not up close. But

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Speaker 1: we see all these pictures, all this what I'll call

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Speaker 1: propaganda as children of horses running, being majestic. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, how come every time when there are no

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Speaker 1: people around on this farm, the horses are just standing still,

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Speaker 1: mostly eating, not really moving around much at all, not

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Speaker 1: even a trot, no gallops, no barely a gallop. They're

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Speaker 1: just standing there, right. And I'm like, if I were

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Speaker 1: to put a group, you know, and this is when

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Speaker 1: they're together, you know, the families together is rare. I

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Speaker 1: would see one horse alone and usually there's two or

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Speaker 1: three of them, and what do you call it? A pin?

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you call those things, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know the fence. Then this is how much

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Speaker 1: I know about horse, right, And I was like, if

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Speaker 1: I had that same area, and I put three dogs.

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Speaker 1: At some point from all these trips, I would see

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Speaker 1: those dogs running, And to this day, I have never

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Speaker 1: seen horses run in person without humans telling them to

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Speaker 1: do it or forcing them to do it. So do it, okay.

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Speaker 1: So then I started to think, do horses even like running? Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think horses like to run, because if they

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Speaker 1: like to run, they would be running when humans weren't around.

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Speaker 1: I guess I never really said this out loud until

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Speaker 1: we started working together, because it's always been something that's

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Speaker 1: percolating in my mind. Yea, And you know, if we'd

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Speaker 1: get into our dumb arguments and have our dumb conversations.

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Speaker 1: And I brought it up to both of you one

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Speaker 1: day and I was like, actually, I don't think horses

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Speaker 1: like to run.

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Speaker 2: So now all of our listeners are in the exact

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Speaker 2: same position that no, right after you. But think about it, silent,

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Speaker 2: but think about it.

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Speaker 1: Think about it. When have you seen horses run right

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Speaker 1: in person? We're gonna get later. We will get to

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Speaker 1: the videos, the documentaries, the movies. Yeah, so called, I

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Speaker 1: got lots to say about that, But just when in

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Speaker 1: your life have you just seen a horse just going

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Speaker 1: for it, like sprinting, just like I'm running. Oh, I

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Speaker 1: like this.

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Speaker 6: I can't say I have. I've also, you know, like you,

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Speaker 6: I haven't really been around the horses.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I guess it's tough for me to recall because I

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Speaker 2: haven't seen any horses really.

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Speaker 1: So neither one of you have seen horses on a

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Speaker 1: farm running on their own. No, no, okay, I think

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Speaker 1: we could maybe end the podcast. Yeah, so I guess

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Speaker 1: maybe I should just say what, like to restate my

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Speaker 1: opinion is, I don't think horses like to run. I

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Speaker 1: think horses are good at running. I think they're majestic creatures.

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Speaker 1: They're very strong, they're very powerful. They look beautiful running.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think like in terms of like if

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Speaker 1: horses got to decide whether or not they would like

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Speaker 1: to run, I don't think most horses they would run

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Speaker 1: like running. This is just based on what I've seen,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you know, everyone that I've talked to,

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Speaker 1: I haven't talked to anyone who's said they've seen horses

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Speaker 1: run for fun. That being said, I don't know very

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Speaker 1: many horse people. I don't spend a lot of time

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Speaker 1: with a lot of horse people, but as a casual observer. Look,

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Speaker 1: that's why I bring up the dog example, right, because

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Speaker 1: even if something manny doesn't really fuck with dogs, Yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: he has seen a dog run.

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Speaker 2: I've seen them run all the time. Example is pretty powerful.

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Speaker 1: Right, And it's like usually dogs running, no human interaction.

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Speaker 1: You go to a dog park, all the humans, none

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Speaker 1: of the humans are moving, The dogs are going off.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean the dogs they have, you know, really

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Speaker 6: fast bursts of energy. I wonder if horses on their

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Speaker 6: own might do.

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Speaker 1: That, you know, And we're just kinda like I have

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Speaker 1: not seen it, not once, but like, so I guess

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, where do we all stand on this?

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Speaker 2: I think it's kind of insane to say that horses

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Speaker 2: don't like to run. I think, okay, initial prompt was

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Speaker 2: horses hate running, which is.

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Speaker 1: That's a little strong. I am a little strong, but

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Speaker 1: sometimes you gotta get people's attention, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think my initial, uh kind of reaction to

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Speaker 2: this is I would imagine that, like humans, some horses

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Speaker 2: might like running, some might not.

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Speaker 1: I don't like running.

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Speaker 2: I'll do it for exercise, but there are some people

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Speaker 2: who do enjoy running, so I will. I think my

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Speaker 2: initial reaction would just to be that it's probably similar

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Speaker 2: to and even so that's still a very small portion

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Speaker 2: of what you do if you're a runner.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 2: So it's like.

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Speaker 6: Thinking, like, you know, you you watch like a nature documentary,

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Speaker 6: and we'll talk about documentaries.

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Speaker 1: More especially numaries, but I'm kind of saying that.

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Speaker 6: But my point is that you only see kind of

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Speaker 6: the extreme bits in those where you're not seeing most

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Speaker 6: Most of life and this goes for humans as well

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Speaker 6: as animals is pretty much doing nothing and then there's

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Speaker 6: moments of extreme activity happening. What I mean is like

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Speaker 6: you watch physical documentary and it's like, okay, you see

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Speaker 6: the the predator attacking.

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Speaker 2: Most of the time, these animals are just sitting around

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Speaker 2: drinking water.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So I kind of view that similarly to the

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Speaker 6: the running where it's like, yeah, we'll run for five minutes,

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Speaker 6: you know, kind of get our little moves on, and

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Speaker 6: then yeah, we're just gonna chill out eat, Like why

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Speaker 6: would we especially on a farm in the back roads. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: there's not much going on, so yeah, we're just gonna chill.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think what's interesting it around early in the morning,

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Speaker 2: you know, before the cars are coming back. I think,

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Speaker 2: what's interesting about this question is that it is true

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Speaker 2: that growing up, we are kind of led to believe that, like,

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Speaker 2: horses are running all the time, all the time.

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Speaker 1: I ride like the wind, the bull's eye.

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Speaker 2: Run, the horses run, the horses to ride.

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Speaker 8: Horses run.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever seen a video image of a horse

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Speaker 1: not running? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Like, right now, I'm gonna type horse into Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: the default, those into Google, And what are the images? Immediately?

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Speaker 2: The first horse is a horse bounting.

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Speaker 1: Right, And and it's kind of interesting because it's with

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Speaker 1: other animals. But I said, I'd say outside of like

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Speaker 1: a cheetah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna see cheatah, you know cheetah because.

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Speaker 1: We love to talk about how fast they are. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: but those images bring going to see other animals, just like.

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Speaker 2: You love to talk about love.

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Speaker 3: Do we not?

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Speaker 2: Do we not talk about When I was in middle school,

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Speaker 2: I was talking a lot about how fast cheetahs were.

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Speaker 1: Insane, But we are fed this horses run, run, run, run,

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Speaker 1: And I think part of it, part of it, I

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Speaker 1: think is innocent, and that horses are very good at running.

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Speaker 1: There they're you know, someone say, built to run. But

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Speaker 1: I think part of it too, is that from humans

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Speaker 1: very first interactions with horses, we like to make them

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Speaker 1: do ship, whether that's pulling things, racing, racing, and in

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Speaker 1: order for us to feel better about making them do

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Speaker 1: that stuff, even just transit like yep, from one place

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Speaker 1: to the next. Right, that's a lot harder to do

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Speaker 1: if in you her mind you're thinking maybe this animal

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Speaker 1: actually doesn't like doing this.

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Speaker 2: So you asked this question earlier, have you ever seen

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Speaker 2: a horse running? And in person? We haven't, but there's

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Speaker 2: you know, countless footage.

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Speaker 1: Of this footage. So yeah, let's talk about the footage.

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Speaker 2: So what do you think is happening about the horses

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Speaker 2: that are running in the footage?

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Speaker 1: Okay? What type of footage be talking about here?

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Speaker 2: Because they're just being a field galloping.

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Speaker 1: Usually where's let's think about this, right, beautiful majestic, the

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Speaker 1: sun sun setting. What is usually an angle we see

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Speaker 1: of these horses is it? Is it down below bird's

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Speaker 1: eye point of view?

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Speaker 8: Wow?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so what if we're we got a bird's eye

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Speaker 1: view of the horses, right, So usually when we get

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Speaker 1: bird's eye views of things, especially horses out in the wild,

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Speaker 1: wearing something I like to call helicopter, right.

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Speaker 2: Like you like to call them that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me ex this. Are helicopters quiet? Are those

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Speaker 1: quiet machines? Can a helicopter just pull up here real

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Speaker 1: quick and no one noticed that a helicopter's outside? No,

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Speaker 1: they're really loud.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying the horses are running because they're.

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Speaker 1: Horses are easily spooked. That's like the everyone knows that.

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Speaker 2: The second fact, yeah, the horses are You ever see

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Speaker 2: the horses out there?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I have been to a horse show before. Once again,

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Speaker 1: none of the horses doing anything, but besides when the

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Speaker 1: people are making them do. But you know there's some

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Speaker 1: horses they have the blinders on because they can't see

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Speaker 1: something to the side or they're lose their them mine. Okay, So,

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Speaker 1: and you gotta think about horses in a wild survival.

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Speaker 1: If something is coming, if a threat, a predator is

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Speaker 1: coming you, that's when you gotta run.

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Speaker 3: Go that.

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Speaker 2: Every time they're running, it's only because.

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Speaker 1: Of what you're asking me. The question was about nature documentaries, right,

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Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is that in these documentaries, most

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Speaker 1: of what you're seeing is from a bird's eye point

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Speaker 1: of view. A helicopter very noisy, and the horses are

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Speaker 1: running because they're running away from the damn helicopter.

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Speaker 2: But if you're at some other perch, like on a

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Speaker 2: mountain top.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, look, I'll also can side that horses run

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Speaker 1: to get from one place to another.

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Speaker 2: Yeah they must.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's like, hey, we got to go over

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Speaker 1: there and get some water, let's run. That don't mean

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Speaker 1: they enjoy doing it.

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Speaker 2: You know, why wouldn't they walk to the water.

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Speaker 1: Because it takes longer. And let's just put this out

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Speaker 1: there in terms of I don't know of either one

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Speaker 1: of you have actually consumed anything in regards to nature documentaries,

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Speaker 1: but they're all full of shit. Yeah that I do all.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of my point before all of nature documentary.

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Speaker 1: It's not even just in regards to horses, regards to

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Speaker 1: all animals. They fake a lot of stuff in nature documentaries.

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Speaker 1: The sound is all made up. Yeah, the I was

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Speaker 1: listening to a story the other day, a podcast story.

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Speaker 1: I didn't read it in the book, but uh, thank you.

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Speaker 3: What are you?

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Speaker 1: What are those things called lemons? Lemon lemmings? Yeah you

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Speaker 1: know that that. Yeah, they don't actually do that, that's

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Speaker 1: made up. So what so like there's this famous documentary

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Speaker 1: of like a bunch of lemmings, like one the ideas

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Speaker 1: that one runs and jumps off a cliff, and they're

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Speaker 1: all so stupid. They're just like, oh, you did it,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it. Hm, So that that's become like

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Speaker 1: a saying.

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Speaker 9: Now, one of these is a nasty little rodent called

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Speaker 9: the lemmings. There's an actual living legend or it said

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Speaker 9: of this tiny animal that it commits mass suicide by

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Speaker 9: rushing into the sea and droll.

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Speaker 1: Most people think it was popularised by this Disney documentary

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Speaker 1: from the fifties, and this Canadian journalist like looked into

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Speaker 1: it and he found that they ligally like fake the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. The these lemmings were like brought in from

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Speaker 1: a part of Canada where like they're not even native

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Speaker 1: to and the filmmakers were like literally pushing them off

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Speaker 1: the cliff.

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Speaker 9: They reached the final precipice, this is the last chance

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Speaker 9: to turn back overre they go casting themselves bodily out

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Speaker 9: into space.

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Speaker 2: But it's all made up, Okay, physically pushing them off

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Speaker 2: the cliff or like scaring them to jump.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, they're forcing them off the cliff,

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Speaker 1: forcing them off the cliff insane. You know, this didn't

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Speaker 1: come from nowhere. Lemmings do dissipate from an area, right,

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Speaker 1: Like they go to an area, they eat up all

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Speaker 1: the food and then they're like, all right, we got

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Speaker 1: to get out of here.

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Speaker 3: Leave.

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Speaker 1: So the thinking is that like people saw this happening,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes they do all like get all you know,

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Speaker 1: lined up on the cliff when they're doing this, But

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Speaker 1: they're not like meaning suicide.

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Speaker 2: They're not trying to fall off the Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just trying to move on something. They're trying

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Speaker 1: to just leave the area. They're not like it's time

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Speaker 1: to die. Well, I'm gonna say if I can find.

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Speaker 2: It, we'll put that in the show notes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Knowing how set up in kind of fake those documentaries are,

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't surprise me if in this footage of horses

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Speaker 2: running in the wild that they did something to make

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Speaker 2: the first before they take I don't know if it's

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Speaker 2: a helicopter scaring them, but it wouldn't surprise me if

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Speaker 2: they did something. I also think something we're kind of

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Speaker 2: ascribing human conceptions of liking and I don't know how

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Speaker 2: to really talk about animals and the pleasure they perceive like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: do any animals do anything purely because they like it?

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Speaker 2: Even even we talked about the dogs running.

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Speaker 1: Outside, I think I think I think he loves running.

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Speaker 6: But I mean, is it or is it just like

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Speaker 6: their bodies saying like you need to exercise and you're

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Speaker 6: you have all this energy to use?

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Speaker 1: I think yeah, but I think he enjoys the act

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Speaker 1: of running. The only thing I would con see is

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Speaker 1: to Manny's point, I think horses are more similar to

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Speaker 1: humans than be getting credit for. I think they have

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Speaker 1: different personalities. Some of those motherfuckers might like to run.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, did we talk about the horses.

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Speaker 1: We haven't even brought up the racetrack stuff because I

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Speaker 1: know that's we all can agree that's bad. Well, we

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Speaker 1: know they're good at running. They're good at running.

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Speaker 2: They're being controlled and.

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Speaker 1: They're bread to run anything like they're being Their whole

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Speaker 1: life is being reinforced to run. So I think that

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Speaker 1: is a different type of horse than a horse in

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Speaker 1: a while, because it's like, yeah, literally, your existence its

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Speaker 1: dependent on running like racehorses. Yeah, I don't think you

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Speaker 1: really have a choice on whether you like it.

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Speaker 3: You just do it.

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Speaker 1: I think horses in the wild are There's probably some

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Speaker 1: lazy horses. There's probably some horses who love to run

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Speaker 1: and want to run. And I think if we had

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Speaker 1: to like give horses a survey, I think more horses

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Speaker 1: would not like running versus horses that enjoy running.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting. So why why do you say that?

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Speaker 1: Because I've never seen a horse front.

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Speaker 2: All right, So how would we try to get an

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Speaker 2: answer for this? Then that's a good question.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's a lot of I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who are invested in this the

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Speaker 1: truth not getting out.

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Speaker 2: It goes back to the documentaries. Yeah, I guess a

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Speaker 2: good question is why do you think, uh, it's it's

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Speaker 2: been important for humankind to to beat into us that

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Speaker 2: horses enjoy running.

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Speaker 1: To my earlier point, yeah, everything we do with horses

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Speaker 1: involves them moving. This is the first domino if the truth,

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Speaker 1: If the truth comes out that these horses are not

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Speaker 1: really down for that and you are forced them to

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Speaker 1: do that, I think people have to feel very differently

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Speaker 1: about the way that we interact with horses day to day.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's a lot easier to just say, hey,

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Speaker 1: they're good at.

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Speaker 3: This, They like it.

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Speaker 1: They like when my daughter Susie is riding it every

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Speaker 1: Tuesday for two hours and jumping over for stuff, because

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Speaker 1: that's what they that's what they would do in a while.

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Speaker 1: They just like doing that. So like we're giving her

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to do that. And I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 1: think horses. I think if you let that horse be

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Speaker 1: left alone, then have a little Susie riding it, it

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Speaker 1: would not be running and jumping it and it will

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Speaker 1: be standing there eating some food. Run when it needs to,

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Speaker 1: but otherwise leave me alone, Susie. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: just be out here running.

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Speaker 2: So we tell ourselves horses enjoy running to rationalize what

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Speaker 2: we do to them.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we're saying absolutely, wow, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: How can we go about trying to get to the

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Speaker 2: bottom of this?

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Speaker 1: We got to find some people who are not in

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Speaker 1: the horse industrial complex. After the break, we talked to

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Speaker 1: someone who left the horse industrial complex and take a

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Speaker 1: journey that made us reevaluate our entire relationship to animals.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Hello, hi, So we got a horse walking out to us.

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Speaker 1: So we got some interesting responses to last week's episode

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Speaker 1: about does religion make you happier? So we heard from

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Speaker 1: Cody from Connecticut, who actually has a correction to you

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Speaker 1: issue to Manny. Manny said that his confirmation saint was

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Speaker 1: Saint Andrew because he's the saint of lost things. But

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Speaker 1: in reality the saint of lost things is Saint Anthony.

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Speaker 1: So be on the lookout for Manny's notes apology forgetting

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Speaker 1: that one incorrect. And then we heard from Ben and Omaha,

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Speaker 1: who had a possible alternative to religion.

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Speaker 10: A lot of people in Europe have mentioned that European

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Speaker 10: soccer has replaced your religion for them, well at least

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Speaker 10: Christian and for them, I got football has become religion

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Speaker 10: for them, and I mean it makes sense. For English

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Speaker 10: soccer fans, they sting for two hours. They congregate for

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Speaker 10: two hours every week together. Some people have season tickets

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Speaker 10: for the generational so they've known the people who are

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Speaker 10: sitting next to them at the seat. So yeah, if

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Speaker 10: you wanted to look at something.

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Speaker 7: That was non giving thanks to some foreign human that

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Speaker 7: may or may not exist, it seems like football flash

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Speaker 7: soccer is one of those venues.

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Speaker 1: All right, fellas, we're back in this studio, so we've

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Speaker 1: had this question for a while, and I think sort

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Speaker 1: of a tough thing with this question is finding the

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Speaker 1: right person to talk to, because, as we've discussed in

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Speaker 1: Part one, in the eight hundred previous conversations we've had

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Speaker 1: about this topic, there's a lot of biases, involves.

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Speaker 3: A lot.

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Speaker 1: On this issue. I don't you know, I don't really

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Speaker 1: trust anybody on it, but I think I can't even

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Speaker 1: trust your own eyes. Can't trust well, I can't trust

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Speaker 1: my own eyes, which is why we're here. Sure, but

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Speaker 1: I think I found the perfect person for this, okay,

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Speaker 1: because she's someone who has experience on both sides of defense.

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Speaker 1: Let's say, my name is Randhurst.

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Speaker 3: I've got a twenty year background as a professional horsewoman,

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Speaker 3: relatively successful as both a horse trainer and a farrier.

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Speaker 1: I had to look up what the hell that is

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Speaker 1: r F A R R I E R. This shows

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Speaker 1: how little wind aout horses as someone who like trims

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Speaker 1: horse who's okay, like professionally so you know she's a trainer,

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Speaker 1: She rode horses, she spent twenty years of horses. Let's

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Speaker 1: just say go for this.

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Speaker 2: And what does she do now?

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Speaker 1: She left the she actually left the industry entirely. Wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: why did she leave? Well, we're going to get to.

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Speaker 1: So she grew up in Texas. Manny was born in Dallas.

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Speaker 2: I didn't actually grow up there, that doesn't count.

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Speaker 1: But she joked that where she grew up there were

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Speaker 1: actually more horses than people in our hometown.

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Speaker 3: I grew up in rodeo Country, USA, going to rodeos

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Speaker 3: as a kid, being around horses. Like most girls, I

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Speaker 3: looked at horses as a symbol of freedom and power

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Speaker 3: and beauty, and was, you know, obviously drawn to that

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Speaker 3: for all the reasons that most people are.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: Din Ren went on to have a pretty successful career

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Speaker 1: as a professional horsewoman. She said her transformation to where

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Speaker 1: she is now then happened overnight, but there was like

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Speaker 1: one really big catalyst that put her on the path

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Speaker 1: that she's on today.

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Speaker 3: I ended up in this very esoteric school of horsemanship

417
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Speaker 3: out of Russia called npsar Off Outicle.

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Speaker 11: Thanks to the school's method, such relations between horse and

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Speaker 11: man now turn out to be possible without the use

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Speaker 11: of any special painful device in its mouth, without punishment,

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Speaker 11: without any means of control.

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Speaker 1: And I had no.

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Speaker 3: Intention of coming to the conclusions that I did, But

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Speaker 3: I thought, here's a man, the guy that's leading the

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Speaker 3: school at the time that can do things that I've

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Speaker 3: never seen done before. And I was really advanced in

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Speaker 3: my own horsemanship skills, so that was saying something.

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Speaker 1: And RHN was shocked because she said, unlike what she

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Speaker 1: was doing there today, what this guy was doing didn't

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Speaker 1: involve any actual training whatsoever.

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Speaker 3: And for one, you have to understand there's all sorts

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Speaker 3: of different ways to modify an animal's behavior or a

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Speaker 3: human's behavior from the perspective of having an unequal power

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Speaker 3: dynamic where somebody has control of the situation and can

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Speaker 3: manipulate coerce force. So I'm speaking to absolutely, in any

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Speaker 3: forms of training, it doesn't matter how positive you perceive

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Speaker 3: the training to be. And I switched that with listening, feeling, intuiting,

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Speaker 3: and leading from an embodied place that made the animal

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Speaker 3: feel very safe to be with me because I was

440
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 3: not being dishonest on any level.

441
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: And then Wren actually took those tools and tried to

442
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: put them into practice, and.

443
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 3: I started working with this very untamed stallion that was

444
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 3: potentially really dangerous, and after having a long successful career

445
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 3: as a trainer, what I was applying with this horse

446
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 3: was completely dismantling everything I had ever thought to be true,

447
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 3: and it completely shattered my reality, both as a horse trainer,

448
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,959
Speaker 3: but also just as a human being on this planet

449
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 3: looking at what the fuck are we doing dominating nature

450
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 3: in this way and separating ourselves from each other and

451
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 3: from the natural order of things.

452
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: So the school completely shattered Ren's worldview and her philosophy

453
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: of like how human should be in here act with animals.

454
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 3: Everything we think we know about horses is viewed through

455
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: the lens of our own domestication, rather through the lens

456
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 3: of actually understanding what it means to be horse much

457
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 3: less animal.

458
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: So Run does still have horses now, but she's not

459
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: like out there riding them or like forcing them to

460
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: run around.

461
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 3: I have undomesticated my herd, which basically means I have

462
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: returned them to their own emotional sovereignty, which means that

463
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 3: I have allowed them to be guided by their own

464
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 3: intrinsic forces rather than my perceived ideas of what is

465
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 3: good and not good for them. And that has rewritten

466
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 3: my truth around what horses need, who horses are, and

467
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 3: what is actually good for them. And when you spend

468
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 3: a lot of time with wild or undomesticated animals, you

469
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 3: get to have an entirely different experience of what it

470
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 3: means to be fully embodied animal. Our entire society is

471
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 3: set up to keep you from doing that, because domestication

472
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 3: is the intentional interruption of emotional developments so that someone

473
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: can control your behavior, and that is the essence of

474
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 3: capitalism and society as it currently exists. They still are

475
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 3: selling you the field goods instead of the feel at alls.

476
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 2: She took the red pillow I feel good versus is

477
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: operating on a different level. She's on a different planet.

478
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 2: Let me get this straight. So basically, Ren is making

479
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 2: an argument as to why we shouldn't domesticate horses, and

480
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: basically if the specific argument is that domestication is a

481
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: form of like trauma, so like if you domesticate an animal,

482
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: their development is constantly being interrupted, Yes, because we're interfering

483
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 2: in their lives that they were not built well, they

484
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 2: weren't built for us to do that.

485
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: And I think her takeaway is like we should just

486
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: be focused on ourselves and not like trying to domesticate others,

487
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: and that's including animals. But before we go too deep

488
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: down that rabbit hole, I wanted to to ask her,

489
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: you know how the horses are behaving now that she's

490
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: changed the way that she's interacting with them.

491
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 3: So I have a herd of twenty that I still

492
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: care for. And this most significant difference is the herd

493
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 3: is just very very peaceful more, I mean just all

494
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 3: the time, like they listen, They're very cooperative. They don't

495
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: act like horses that have anything to worry about. Everything

496
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 3: is easy to do. If I need to trim somebody's hooves,

497
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 3: if I need to do vet care, if I need

498
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 3: to manage them, if I need to move them from

499
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 3: place to place. We don't use any training, there's no manipulation,

500
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 3: and yet there is a cohesiveness and a harmony and

501
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: a cooperative state of being here just because they know

502
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 3: that they are cared for and safe and don't have

503
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 3: to you know, they know they're always going to be heard.

504
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: Now that that's how she behaves towards horses, like that's

505
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 2: her new kind of line of thinking. Did you ask

506
00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: her like if horses are running on their own more

507
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: willingly or doing it less often because of that new dynamic.

508
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 2: So basically, without the human interaction, what are they doing?

509
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 3: These guys run when they play, They definitely have bouts

510
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 3: of that, We're all wake up and see the whole

511
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 3: herd running around and rearing up and bucking, and they're just,

512
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: you know, feeling good in themselves and it's intrinsically motivated

513
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 3: and you can tell they're being joyful because they're playing.

514
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 3: There's also times where they get scared of something and

515
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 3: then they run because it's instinctual. They never run because

516
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 3: anybody's telling them to, because there's nobody to do that.

517
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone can say horses love to run

518
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 3: about any horse all the time, Like just like I

519
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 3: can't say you love whatever you're drinking right now all

520
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 3: the time. Like there are moments I love to run

521
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 3: because it feels good to do so, but those moments

522
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 3: are not consistent, they're not every day and it has

523
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 3: nothing to do with who I am. And if anybody

524
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: perceived that about me, I'd be like, you don't know

525
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 3: shit about me, Like why would you even say that?

526
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 3: And that's we typically project. I mean, that's what domestication.

527
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: It's like a constant projection of trauma from the human world.

528
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: That is insightful to me because it's it's basically the

529
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: answers horses do like running when they want to run,

530
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 2: which is I know that's not super novel, but like

531
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 2: it does help me. We're about it, Yeah, because when

532
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: most of the time horses are running, they don't want

533
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 2: to it's like a race, or when we're saying yeah,

534
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: or work or labor. Yeah, even our question yeah in

535
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: her art, in her view, is probably a form of

536
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: domesticating that well yeah, well yeah, yeah, because it's the

537
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: idea that's perpetuating the world that where horses.

538
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: Or do.

539
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

540
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: It's like the whole point of this question was to

541
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: be like everyone thinks horses love to run, I don't

542
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: think they do. And it's like so then now we've

543
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: gone to the other extreme of saying like, no, horses

544
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: don't like running at all at any time, rather than like,

545
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's kind of complex sometimes individual creatures.

546
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and there's different moods and different things.

547
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: And even all the horses that like to run may

548
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: not want to run on one day versus another day.

549
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's but it's the most logical explanation. Yeah,

550
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: it seems like it makes the most sense. Yeah, it

551
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: seems like another kind of framing we had was if

552
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: horses were left to their own devices, would they be

553
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: running more or less? It sounds like the answer is less.

554
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's true. And even talking to people

555
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: who I would say, like really disagree or run, they

556
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: had a similar sentiment that like, no, horses aren't just

557
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: going to be out there sprinting just because like they

558
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: aren't like cross country runners. That's not the case. Yeah,

559
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: I agree with that.

560
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 6: It sounds like even the horses that made like running

561
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 6: probably aren't doing it for you know, vast lengths of

562
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 6: time or across great distances, even if humans had no

563
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 6: impact on their their lives.

564
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: Which is contrary to kind of what we grew up believing.

565
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 3: I really think that the more healed we become in

566
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 3: our own animal body, the less domestication is even interesting.

567
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: And there's a reason that wild animals out there aren't

568
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 3: domesticating each other because they don't need to and there's

569
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 3: no value in that. So when you talk to these

570
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 3: other people and ask them that question, it's like, well,

571
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: what happens when you remove all of your influence from

572
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 3: the horse? Are they still running? The answer is no,

573
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 3: they're not, because their horses are so freaking traumatized that

574
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 3: that's why they stand around and past yours allay and

575
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 3: do nothing. And that's not black and white either, because

576
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 3: the better a horse is loved and cared for, the

577
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 3: better they feel in their body, and the better you

578
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: feel in the body, the more you want to move it.

579
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean they're out there running around for

580
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 3: the sake of running around, Because no healthy animal is

581
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 3: unaware of the importance of the conservation of energy, especially

582
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 3: a prey animal. You're not gonna have horses running around

583
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 3: expending energy for no reason when they might need to

584
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 3: run away from a threat when it comes. But I mean,

585
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: most people that have a set perception about anything haven't

586
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: spent very much time observing with any sort of open

587
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 3: curiosity at all about the thing that they're perceiving.

588
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: You might not need them, but I brought the gloves.

589
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've loved you. And to End's point, it felt

590
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: weird for three guys to do a whole podcast about horses,

591
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: about us actually spending any time of horses. So we

592
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: went back to those New Jersey back roads and visited

593
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: one of those horse farms where this whole thing started.

594
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, the destination will be on the left.

595
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 3: All right.

596
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: We were pulling up on the ranch here and some

597
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: horses outside, and I will say not a single one

598
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: of them are running right now. In fact, not only

599
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: are they not running, there standing completely still.

600
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so one of them was walking.

601
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: Let's go inside and see what's up or outside, don't

602
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: go outside, that's right.

603
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: We took a tour of Bergen County Horse Rescue with Aaron,

604
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: who's the founder.

605
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 5: Give me a little.

606
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: So we're doing a podcast about whether or not horses

607
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: love running. Okay, and Jen who's the equine manager.

608
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: So good timing.

609
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 4: The snakes aren't out yet, Hi, Satners, So now all

610
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 4: of it's gonna come over and say hi to us. Hey,

611
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 4: and as soon as as soon as Saturn comes over here,

612
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 4: Saturn is going to chase her away because Saturn's top

613
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 4: horse and all of us on the bottom. So now

614
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 4: watch Saturn's years are going to do. She's going to

615
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 4: chase her away.

616
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 3: Oh wow, she's out, and Saturn's gonna come and say hi.

617
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 8: So yeah, they really they have all different personalities. People

618
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 8: will ask me the horses know their names, and they do,

619
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 8: but I believe that they all know their names, but

620
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 8: ninety percent of them are just going to ignore you.

621
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: Anyway some more cat cat.

622
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

623
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 8: It's like, okay, all right, Murphy though, you call Murphy

624
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 8: and he comes right and I swear he loves it.

625
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 8: And we had him for probably two weeks and he

626
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 8: already learned his name. Wow, which is pretty wild.

627
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 3: This is Murphy, Oh Murphy, This is drop kick Murphy.

628
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: Okay, so Ione running in the corner. Now it's more

629
00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: of a trot, okay, all right, all right, okay, I

630
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: won't call it that.

631
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 4: A ruck.

632
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 2: Definitely moving a little bit, but this is essentially like

633
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: the equivalent of me, like trying to beat the crosswalk

634
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: time yet light little dog, and then I'm done after

635
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 2: ten seconds.

636
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's the weather. This is more of a lazy

637
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 8: day for them. The sun is strong, so you probably

638
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 8: in a little while a lot of them will be

639
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 8: laying laying down and sleeping.

640
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: Now you said, you know, you got to exercise them,

641
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: so left to their own devices, I guess they're not.

642
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 2: They're hang Media that you see about horses is always

643
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: about how much they are running all the time, and like, right,

644
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 2: there's movies, are.

645
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 8: You know, Oh seriously, well, yeah, I watch even some

646
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 8: of the stuff, and you know they're on these rides

647
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 8: throughout the United States there and I'm like, like, the

648
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 8: horses need to rest heard they meanwhile, it's like a movie.

649
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 8: I'm like, they better water those horses soon. Probably one

650
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 8: of the most animals that there's a lot of misconceptions about.

651
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 8: You know, people just don't know enough about them, and

652
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 8: the stuff that's out there for the general public is

653
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 8: really miss misinformed.

654
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 2: I was gonna trying to eat your micah.

655
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 10: Yah h.

656
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: No such Thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Norh Friedman

657
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: and Me Devin Joseph. Theme song by Manny This is

658
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: I've always been the first to say I love you

659
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: by certain self. Our guests this week were Aaron and

660
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: Jenny from the Bergen County Horse Rescue and Ren Hurst,

661
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: who has a book out titled The Wisdom of Wildness.

662
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: Thanks to our friends for their notes, Julia Lindsay, Miata Graf,

663
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: Catherine Isaac, Sarah Floyd, and TRUTHYPJ from Search Engine Visit

664
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: No Such Thing that show to see photos of us

665
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: with Murphy at the Bergen County Horse Rescue and some

666
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: of our wild horses hate running merch that we made

667
00:37:48,880 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: back in twenty nineteen, Pa.

668
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: Pa, I've always been the first to say you lost me,

669
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: But I want to know what it feels like for

670
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: you to want me still

671
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 1: For someone I care about, someone who makes me sick,

672
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 1: to work for this