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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and welcome to Stephane. Never told

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Speaker 1: your production of I Heart Radio. And it's time for

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Speaker 1: another female first, which means we are once again delighted

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Speaker 1: to be joined by the wonderful, magnificent Eaves. Welcome e Hey,

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Speaker 1: thank you for the welcome back for another installment. I'm

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Speaker 1: excited as usual. I'm excited too. I'm excited for a

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Speaker 1: lot of reasons about this one. I did. I feel

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Speaker 1: like we always have these really interesting conversations before we

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Speaker 1: start recording this one. We talked a lot about teeth.

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Speaker 1: But I want to ask you, Eves a couple of questions. One,

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Speaker 1: are you a morning person? It depends on the time

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Speaker 1: of year, in the phase of life, So right now

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Speaker 1: I am because I really love starting my mornings with

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Speaker 1: like yoga and meditation, So right now I am. And

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Speaker 1: that's probably like, that's probably going to be an indefinite thing,

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Speaker 1: because honestly, when I was younger, I wasn't a huge

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Speaker 1: nighttime person. Like I knew people who could stay up

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Speaker 1: all night working watching TV, and I was never like that.

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Speaker 1: So I would say, yes, I'm more of a morning

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Speaker 1: mid day and I also love sunlight, so I think

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Speaker 1: I'll probably stay in that stay in that area. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Samantha and I were curious because when we record these,

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Speaker 1: you're always like, let's don't die, okay, So here's my

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Speaker 1: apology for that. I do think about that because I

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Speaker 1: do say ten thirty. It's because you know, I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's at that time of day where it's like

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Speaker 1: if I need to do any like refreshing, right before

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Speaker 1: I have time to do that. I know my voice

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Speaker 1: is woking up a little bit more, but it's not

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Speaker 1: too late in the day where I'm like away with

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Speaker 1: all of that other mess, like it's time for me

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Speaker 1: to be with myself. So I just feel like it's

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Speaker 1: a good time of day for me. But you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're crazy, it's just let me no. No. I actually, um,

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Speaker 1: I've kind of gone to a shift. When I was younger,

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Speaker 1: I was very much like a night owl. I hated

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Speaker 1: the more, like dreaded them. That might have had more

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Speaker 1: to do with not being a morning person necessarily, but

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Speaker 1: like not liking school, who knows. But I had a

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Speaker 1: really dramatic shift after college where I've become much more

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Speaker 1: I'm actually both a morning person and at night owl.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, what what you're saying I don't sleep very much,

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Speaker 1: but I am. I I'm somebody who's probably the most

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Speaker 1: awake around this time. But almost everyone else I work

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Speaker 1: with isn't. Morning recording session is just rary for me.

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Speaker 1: I've got no qualms or completely. I was just scary. No,

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Speaker 1: we had intended to start at but because of me

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Speaker 1: and me not being a morning person, I'm like, let's

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Speaker 1: do it at one one. Sounds good, no problems, and

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Speaker 1: I this is not some weird way of trying to

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Speaker 1: get you to change your roys. I was just curious.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, it makes it better because it actually gets

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Speaker 1: me to start the day because I am the procrastinator

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Speaker 1: of the crew. But I'm like, huh, she likes to

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Speaker 1: get into this, let's go. Yes. And I am excited

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Speaker 1: to talk about this because I actually did spend about

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Speaker 1: a year in Australia UM and I lived with an

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Speaker 1: indigenous Aboriginal Australian community for four or five months. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and it was one of the best, most rewarding learning

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Speaker 1: experiences I've ever had. And I'm continually like, because I

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Speaker 1: was kind of randomly assigned to that project, I'm continually

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Speaker 1: grateful for it. So this really it brought back a

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Speaker 1: lot of good memories and kind of the power of

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Speaker 1: I think we all like traveling here in this crew

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Speaker 1: and like that there's so many beautiful things there and

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Speaker 1: I had such a good time, So I'm very, very

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Speaker 1: excited to talk about this. Yeah, I remember you mentioning

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Speaker 1: that I don't know a ton about Aboriginal culture, so

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Speaker 1: you definitely obviously have way more living experience with it

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Speaker 1: than I do. That I've never even been to Australia,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, it seems like a really beautiful place though,

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Speaker 1: and I know that there is a lot, a lot,

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Speaker 1: a lot of history there when it comes to Aboriginal

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Speaker 1: people and towards Straight Islanders, and it's a history that

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Speaker 1: is greatly more about colonization and imperialism as are a

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Speaker 1: lot of other places around the world, and that there

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Speaker 1: is a lot of hardship but also a lot of

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Speaker 1: beauty um in Aboriginal culture. So I'm excited to talk

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Speaker 1: about it too. So, yes, who did you bring for

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Speaker 1: us to discuss Today's So just a quick disclaimer before

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Speaker 1: we begin. I understand that there may be some kind

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Speaker 1: of sensitivity around hearing the names of deceased Aboriginal Australians

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Speaker 1: for some people. So just wanted to put a content

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Speaker 1: warning up front that some names will be mentioned here.

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Speaker 1: If you are sensitive to listening to that kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: then you might want to skip this episode at the time.

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Speaker 1: And also just to say that there, as with naming

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Speaker 1: and so many things, it's it's so influx so many times,

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Speaker 1: and it's different for individuals as well as communities and

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Speaker 1: societies when it comes to what we call these people's

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal people's first nations, people's using specific cultural groups themselves.

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Speaker 1: So the New Knuckle people, which are once we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about today, I'll try to interchange them

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Speaker 1: a lot as we're speaking, because I can't determine for

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Speaker 1: anybody what they're comfortable with hearing. I'm just going by

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Speaker 1: what is generally accepted to be good when it comes

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Speaker 1: to usage for people who are not part of the cultures. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a really good point because when I was there,

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Speaker 1: just with like any topic we talk about, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's not it's not a monolith, and people prefer different terms.

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Speaker 1: And I think when I was there, the way that

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Speaker 1: people spoke about it has changed, just like a lot

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Speaker 1: of us. There's been a lot of change, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like for the better, mostly about like we need

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Speaker 1: to be more aware of the words we use and

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Speaker 1: why we use them. Uh So it's changed from when

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Speaker 1: I was there. Uh So, Yeah, that's a great point

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Speaker 1: of just it's still in flux um. There's still these

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Speaker 1: conversations happening and not everyone agrees. Yeah, yes, thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I guess we'll get into it now. So we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about Ujaru New Knuckle, also known as

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Speaker 1: Kath Walker. As a preface to all of that, I'll

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Speaker 1: say that she was a poet, she was a storyteller,

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Speaker 1: she was a visual artist, and she was an educator.

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Speaker 1: So she had a long and storied life that we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about today. So we'll start with our birth.

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Speaker 1: She was born on November third, nineteen twenty UM. She

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Speaker 1: was from men Jariba, which is the name of what's

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Speaker 1: now called North Stradbrooke Island, Um in a language that

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Speaker 1: the New Knuckle people speak, which is the group that

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Speaker 1: she was a part of. They're one of the people

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Speaker 1: who were traditionally lived on the that island um and

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Speaker 1: that islanded in more Tim Bay in Queensland. So I'll

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Speaker 1: kind of start off calling her cath Walker, since her

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Speaker 1: name did change over time, but at this point she

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Speaker 1: was referred to as kath Walker. Her grandmother was the

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Speaker 1: daughter of a white man and a new knuckle woman,

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Speaker 1: and her kath Walker's grandmother married a German Man and

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Speaker 1: one of their children was named Edward Edward A k

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Speaker 1: A Tied and that was CAS's father. He lived and

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Speaker 1: he worked on Manjarraba. She remarks very fondly about her

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Speaker 1: time there and her time spent with him and the

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Speaker 1: things that he taught her while they lived on the

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Speaker 1: island together. So her mother, Cath's mother was Lucy. She

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Speaker 1: also had a white father and an Aboriginal mother and

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Speaker 1: together the two of them had seven children together. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: he taught her things that are themes throughout her life. Nature, animals,

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Speaker 1: community with nature. Her dad taught her and her siblings

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Speaker 1: how to catch food like fish and bandicoots and all

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Speaker 1: of these practical things that when it came to surviving

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Speaker 1: and living in the area. And her totem is the

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Speaker 1: carpet snake. So a totem is an object, a plant,

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Speaker 1: or an animal that has passed down through a family

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Speaker 1: as a sort of spiritual emblem and the carpet snake.

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Speaker 1: There's a cute story that she tells about. There's also

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Speaker 1: a poem she wrote regarding that totem, but she talks

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Speaker 1: about how her dad they kept a snake around the house,

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Speaker 1: which it's not something I would be fond of, but

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Speaker 1: like she talks about how the snake just hung around

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Speaker 1: the house and when her father passed away, the snake

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Speaker 1: just kind of disappeared. And there was questioning around whether

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Speaker 1: that snake left because you know, the person that it

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Speaker 1: was attached to left, or if her mother really wasn't

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Speaker 1: here for that snake was there. We don't know, But

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Speaker 1: that was like a really cute story in her life.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, she said that she was left handed, but

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Speaker 1: her school teacher forced her to write with her right,

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Speaker 1: which isn't an unusual thing. But she also said that

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Speaker 1: from the time she was a child, she liked to

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Speaker 1: play with words, like playing with a jigsaw puzzle, So

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Speaker 1: her love for the like her interest in the arts

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Speaker 1: and writing came on pretty early. When she was thirteen, though,

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Speaker 1: her school education ended and she began live in domestic

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Speaker 1: work to be able to provide and for context. This

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Speaker 1: was during the time of the Great Depression, so there

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Speaker 1: were a lot of economic hardships for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: and they were also Aboriginal Australians under authority who added

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Speaker 1: a lot of hardships on top of that. So but

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Speaker 1: she did talk about how much fun and how fondly

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Speaker 1: she remembered her time on the island. So in nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty two, during World War Two, she joined the Australian

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Speaker 1: Women's Army Service. She also had other family members who

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Speaker 1: were in the military, but she learned switchboard operation and

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Speaker 1: soon became corporal and was put in charge of training

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Speaker 1: new people. And she also soon married Bruce Walker, which

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Speaker 1: is where that last name Walker comes in. He was

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Speaker 1: a boxer and a wilder whom she had known since childhood.

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Speaker 1: They settled in Brisbane and she worked with the a

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Speaker 1: w a S until nineteen forty four, and she played sports.

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Speaker 1: Um so a bunch of different sports. But one of

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Speaker 1: them was Krikoh, which I hadn't heard of until I mean,

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Speaker 1: maybe y'all have. I don't know if you had, maybe Annie,

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Speaker 1: because you've been there. But it was a game that

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Speaker 1: was based on cricket device specifically for women's teams in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Oh I played some rounds you did? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't very good, but one time, one time I

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Speaker 1: knocked it out of the part man and that that

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Speaker 1: will be like my shining achievement. So it's essentially cricket

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Speaker 1: but for women, and they just changed the name. I'm

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Speaker 1: not the one to tell you about the mechanics of

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Speaker 1: the sport. Complicated, okay, complicated, sticky, wicked. I know we

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Speaker 1: have some Australian listeners, so if they can let us

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Speaker 1: know that, because yes, I would love that. So she

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Speaker 1: was interested in the Communist Party for hot minute, was

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Speaker 1: a little involved in it read Communist works, but she

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Speaker 1: never really latched on there or in general aligned with

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Speaker 1: political parties much, though she did decades later running elections

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Speaker 1: for the Labor Party and for the Australian Democrats. So

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Speaker 1: she and Bruce Walker they did have a son together,

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Speaker 1: who was born in ninety, but the couple separated and

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Speaker 1: Kat had to turn back to domestic work and a

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Speaker 1: family that she worked for encouraged her to pursue her

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Speaker 1: interest in the arts, and she later had another son

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Speaker 1: with a member of that family. So that's a little

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Speaker 1: background on her early life. And how she started to

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Speaker 1: veer into the arts space and into the activists space

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Speaker 1: as well, because those things both ran parallel in her life,

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Speaker 1: like they went hand in hand. A lot of her

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Speaker 1: work referred to the things that she cared about in

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Speaker 1: general in life that were important to her, but that

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Speaker 1: were also big issues at the time when it came

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Speaker 1: to Aboriginal rights. So she joyed the Brisbane Realist Writers Group,

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Speaker 1: which was a group that met to read and critique

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Speaker 1: each other's work, and she met this Australian writer named

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Speaker 1: James Devaney who encouraged her to read and study other poets.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, but pause for a little bit more context

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Speaker 1: in terms of colonization there did what colonization does, um,

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Speaker 1: Like you said earlier, Samantha, I know they're Australian listeners

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Speaker 1: out there as well, but it's the thing that many

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Speaker 1: people have been affected by around the world. And the

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Speaker 1: European invaders who colonized the island brought with it a

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Speaker 1: host of issues that are often universal issues that happen

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Speaker 1: in other places, but once that are specific to that

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Speaker 1: place as well. And obviously Aboriginal people existed and exist

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Speaker 1: in that land, and among them there was all this

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Speaker 1: government control that was happening of the Aboriginal people's and

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Speaker 1: the tourist Straight Islanders. There were things like dispossession, movement, restriction,

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Speaker 1: family separation, UM, poverty and hunger. I'm like laughing because

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Speaker 1: these are things that like I can to us well

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Speaker 1: when it comes to um colonization in the United States.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so legislation in Queensland that limited the rights

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Speaker 1: of Aboriginal people's, called the Queensland Acts as a whole,

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Speaker 1: was particularly devastating to them. There were once like the

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Speaker 1: Aboriginals Preservation and Protection Act, which was later replaced by

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Speaker 1: the Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander Affairs Act. UM. There

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Speaker 1: were a bunch of different policies that were enacted under

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Speaker 1: these acts. But for instance, just to mention some of them,

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Speaker 1: officers could control how Aboriginal people spent and manage their money. Um.

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Speaker 1: There was a Queensland Trust Fund that was under a

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Speaker 1: lot of heat by a lot of the activists, including

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Speaker 1: kath Walker, and you can go and read more about that.

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Speaker 1: But there was also other things like the Director of

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Speaker 1: Native Affairs was the legal guardian every Aboriginal child in

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Speaker 1: the state. So there was a lot of paternalism happening,

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Speaker 1: and a big part of Kath Walker's fight and other

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Speaker 1: activists fight was pushing back against this really huge oppressive

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Speaker 1: paternalistic force and letting First Nations people control their own lives,

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Speaker 1: to not have white people speak for them in politics

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Speaker 1: and on councils, in a step for them to speak

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Speaker 1: for themselves, which sounds like the but you know that

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Speaker 1: wasn't the case. She also campaigned for Aboriginal land rights

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Speaker 1: and as she said in one nineteen seventies speech quote,

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Speaker 1: the key requirements today are the return of land rights

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Speaker 1: to the people and the implementing of legislation that will

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Speaker 1: ensure independence and self determination for the Aborigines of Australia.

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Speaker 1: So she began to get more involved in the community

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Speaker 1: and in council. She began attending meetings of the Queensland

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Speaker 1: Council for the Advancement of the Origins and Tourist Straight Islanders,

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Speaker 1: also known as q KATSI. I think it's how you

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Speaker 1: pronounced that. Years later she also became the Queensland State

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Speaker 1: Secretary of the Federal Council for the Advancement of Aborigines

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Speaker 1: and Tours Straight Islanders. She has a long history of

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Speaker 1: being involved with them. So over the year she was

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Speaker 1: doing a lot of things with that organization. At the

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Speaker 1: same time, she was still writing. So she sent the

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Speaker 1: publisher of Jack Randa Press her poetry manuscript and he

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Speaker 1: passed it on to reader Judith Wright, and she recommended

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Speaker 1: publication and the two of them did have a relationship.

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Speaker 1: Was interesting that Judith Wright wrote a poem for kath Walker,

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Speaker 1: and then kath Walker was so affected or moved by

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Speaker 1: that poem that she said that she couldn't write a

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Speaker 1: response till years later. She did end up writing a

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Speaker 1: response years later, but in nineteen sixty four, We Are

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Speaker 1: Going was published, and that was the first that was

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Speaker 1: her first which I really as we've been saying at

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Speaker 1: the beginning, but the first surprise. It was the first

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Speaker 1: published volume of poetry bout an Aboriginal Australian. I like

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Speaker 1: the surprise first, You're like the whole time, like what

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Speaker 1: is it? That's how a lot of the TV shows

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Speaker 1: are going, where they give you a good point of

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Speaker 1: the plot and then they do the like actual introductions

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Speaker 1: like hey, here's what the show title is. This is

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Speaker 1: what we're doing a little lot of before you can

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Speaker 1: find it it's a surprise, surprise, It's like, oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was well received, but there were also people who

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Speaker 1: dismissed it as just like protest poetry, just propaganda. Some

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Speaker 1: people even accused her of not writing it because she

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Speaker 1: was an Aboriginal Australian. She later said, quote, one thing

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Speaker 1: that happens when you have a bit of white blood

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Speaker 1: and you and have a bit of white education is

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Speaker 1: that when you misbehave people say ah, that's the Aboriginal

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Speaker 1: in you, And when you accomplished something, they'll say, ah,

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Speaker 1: that's the white coming out in you. It happened to

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Speaker 1: as a child, and it still happens. She went on

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Speaker 1: to publish more books. She published over the course of

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Speaker 1: her life, children's books, more poetry, collections, essay, she did lectures,

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Speaker 1: all those things. But in nineteen sixty six she published

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Speaker 1: The Dawn Is at Hand Um. She also got plenty

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Speaker 1: of awards, which we don't need to go through all

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Speaker 1: of them, but for instance, in nineteen sixty seven she

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Speaker 1: won the Jesse Litchfield Award for Literature and her work

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Speaker 1: sold pretty well. So between all this work that she

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Speaker 1: and other activists were doing and the type of work

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Speaker 1: that she was putting out through her poetry. She was

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Speaker 1: a big voice in getting other people involved in the

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Speaker 1: Five for Aboriginal Rights, and eventually all of this movement

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Speaker 1: work that people were doing led to the nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: seven referendum in which Australians voted to amend the Constitution

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Speaker 1: to allow the Commonwealth to make laws for First Nations

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Speaker 1: peoples and to include them and population counts. It did

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Speaker 1: not though it had already been done, because it did

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Speaker 1: not grant Aboriginal people's citizenship they had already had that.

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Speaker 1: It didn't grant the wage of quality either or the

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Speaker 1: right to vote they had already had the right to

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Speaker 1: vote at that time in all states and Commonwealth elections.

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Speaker 1: But hint, hint, there were still other repressive Queensland laws

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Speaker 1: in place after that referendum was passed. In fact, Kath

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Speaker 1: went on to say later that it was just like

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Speaker 1: something that was done for white people's convenience, like it

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Speaker 1: was something that made them feel a little bit better

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Speaker 1: about themselves, but it was still a point in progress

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Speaker 1: that was fought for by many people who have been

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Speaker 1: doing work to get to something like this. So not

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Speaker 1: to just be dismissive of that, but also to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: the fact that it was something that didn't completely measurably

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Speaker 1: change and improve all the really serious conditions that Aboriginal

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Speaker 1: people were facing. So yeah, So she continued to travel

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Speaker 1: and extensively nationally campaigning for Aboriginal rights, having conversations on

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Speaker 1: things like racism around the world, Aboriginal culture, poetry, conservationism,

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Speaker 1: like environmental issues. She spoke in places like Malaysia, the

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Speaker 1: Soviet Union, Nigeria, and the United States. And in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventies she published My People. That first edition of My People,

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Speaker 1: which is a collection of poetry, was dedicated to the

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Speaker 1: Brisbane Aboriginal and Islander Council, whose policy is self determination.

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Speaker 1: That was the dedication in the front of My People,

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Speaker 1: so clearly how important it was to say that, and

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Speaker 1: for her to mention self determination at the front of that,

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Speaker 1: which was something that was a shift in thinking for

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Speaker 1: her in a way she saw, you know, in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: a lot of these organizations that she was working with

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Speaker 1: was headed up by white people, and white people approached

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Speaker 1: her and other Aboriginal people's to take part in these initiatives.

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Speaker 1: But she also she began to see more of but

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Speaker 1: over time, but she saw the benefit of union among

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal peoples in them forming their own organizations rather than

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Speaker 1: counting on the advocacy of white people in white dominated organizations,

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Speaker 1: and the coalition between the groups also another parallel that

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Speaker 1: can be formed in the United States as well, and

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Speaker 1: how many institutions and organizations were headed up by well

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Speaker 1: meaning white people. She believed in Aboriginal Australians advancing their

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Speaker 1: own cause and that coalitions cannot be effective if they're

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Speaker 1: based on what white people want in their customs. So

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Speaker 1: you'll see that play out in her poetry as well,

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Speaker 1: her talking about how she she she does have this

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Speaker 1: all one race hi happening in her work, but she

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Speaker 1: also talks about how there are fundamental differences and customs

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Speaker 1: and quote what she calls moral behaviors that cannot be reconciled.

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Speaker 1: So if somebody has come men, I want to say,

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Speaker 1: somebody white people are coming in and making decisions based

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Speaker 1: on their own customs and their own thoughts about things

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Speaker 1: without letting Aboriginal Australians have their own say in policy

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Speaker 1: and in the things that govern their lives and tell

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Speaker 1: them how they should survive in the land that is

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Speaker 1: originally there's it's not gonna work. So though she had

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Speaker 1: been a key voice in the progress that led to

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty seven referendum, she came to think it

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Speaker 1: was more for them, It was more them than us.

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Speaker 1: And she remarks that the optimism that she and a

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Speaker 1: lot of other people have previously had. There is a

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Speaker 1: lot of hope in her poetry, a lot of future

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Speaker 1: facing forwardness, like looking there's a lot of that in

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Speaker 1: her poetry. But she and others at the same time,

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Speaker 1: we're also understandably bending to the despair of facing the

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Speaker 1: same problems, waiting hope in the third future, all the

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Speaker 1: things that plagued us as humans. But of course, in

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Speaker 1: her specific situation, after your trying so hard and being

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Speaker 1: so vocal and and exerting so much life force toward

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Speaker 1: her specific cause and not saying motion like you want

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Speaker 1: to see it as can happen, then so yeah. She

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Speaker 1: continued to publish things, and she published The Black Commandments

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Speaker 1: in nine was, including commandments like thou shalt gather thy

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Speaker 1: scattered people together and thou shalt work for Black liberation,

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Speaker 1: and there are other ones you can go read it.

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Speaker 1: But in ninety one she did start to face health

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Speaker 1: challenges and challenges from younger Aboriginal leaders. She resigned from

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Speaker 1: some of the committee she was on and she moved

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Speaker 1: back to men Jaribah. And that did not mean that

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Speaker 1: all of her work stopped, Like you know, she was

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Speaker 1: just no longer involved in the community and the work

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Speaker 1: that she was doing. She continued to do it, it

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Speaker 1: just looked a little bit different. She did continue writing,

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Speaker 1: although there was a gap in her work. Was a

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Speaker 1: gap in her work that happened and when it came

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Speaker 1: to her published work. So what happened when she went

395
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: back to Manjariba. She submitted an application to lease and

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Speaker 1: eventually purchased about five acres of land there with the

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Speaker 1: hopes of constructing a museum and art gallery. And she

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00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: did not get permanent ownership. She wasn't granted it, but

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00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: she was granted a year lease that was later extended

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Speaker 1: to a lifetime lease. And that place was called moon Galba.

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Speaker 1: And that meant sitting down place is what I think

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00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: that meant. And it became more than a museum and

403
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Speaker 1: art gallery. It was a place for a learning and

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00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: cultural exchange. And when I saw, like when I watched

405
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: the videos of it in her in that space and

406
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: her talking about it, and other people were marking on it.

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00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 1: It just seems like such a magical place that I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I really wish that I could have gone there, because

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00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: it seemed like it was really rich and fulfilling and

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00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: also a place where cultural exchange happen. It happened for children,

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Speaker 1: and it was just really nice to see her interacting

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00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: with them and like, how how enlightening something like that

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00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: can be. Um. She would put on holiday camps for

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Speaker 1: their children, teach them how to be self sufficient, um.

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Speaker 1: And and then it was also in such a beautiful space.

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, I wish I could be there. But

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Speaker 1: thousands of students visited. Their student teachers also went there

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00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: learned about Aboriginal culture, conservation, poetry, and other things. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is one story that had uh bit of traction

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Speaker 1: in her life, and that was the story when she

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00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: was on a plane was hijacked and they wanted Palestinian

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00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: prisoners to be released, and while she was she wrote

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00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: while she was on that plane on the back of

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00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: a sick bag. So while she was on the plane

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00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: she was writing poetry. One was about and you Can Go.

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Speaker 1: There are two poems that she wrote one about the

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00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: situation and another one about one of the hijackers. The

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00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: name of the poems stuff, I believe that was the

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00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: name of the hijacker who she found out had previously

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00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: been a pediatrician, and she in that poem is remarking

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00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: on how he once held children and instead now is

432
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: holding a rifle and things like that. Um with a

433
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: lot of compassion, Like there was a lot of compassion

434
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: that ran through her poetry. So I will talk about

435
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: her poetry for a little bit. She wrote about a

436
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 1: bunch of different things. Obviously it was very intertwined, like

437
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: I said, with her the causes that she cared about

438
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: her activism, but there was a range of emotions and

439
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: like human things that humans can relate to that she

440
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: wrote about. So there were things like racism, assimilation and integration.

441
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: She remarked a lot on the hypocrisy of white Christians,

442
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: specifically denigrating First Nations Australians and how backward it was

443
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: for them to proclaim to be a part of this

444
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: religion and not expressed that in ways towards First Nations Australians.

445
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: She talked a lot about living with nature, Aboriginal spirituality,

446
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: and folklore being her own dedication to advancing Aboriginal rights.

447
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: She talks about that in the poem I Love, and

448
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: just how dedicated she is to it, and how it's inextricable,

449
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: like from she she has to do it, and she's

450
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: compelled to do it, and and how important it is

451
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: to her, and the necessity of sorrow and grief, how

452
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: they go hand in hand with love. That was one

453
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 1: that I really liked. Aboriginal customs like Corrobboree, which was

454
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: a dance ceremony um she talked about hope in the future,

455
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: like I mentioned earlier. So a lot of her poems

456
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: are technically simple but moving um and also obviously very

457
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: meaningful to her and to her community in general. She

458
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: published children's books like Strap Broke, dream Time and Father

459
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: Sky and Mother Earth, and that was in the seventies

460
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: and eighties. And she was also a visual artist and

461
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: she created illustrations that accompanied her poetry. So she she

462
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:42,239
Speaker 1: did a lot. And in the documentary Shadow Sister, she

463
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: said that she didn't have a lot of money, but

464
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: that she was rich and peace and serenity when she

465
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: was at Moon Galba. She seemed very content when she

466
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: said that, like that I feel like a lot of

467
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: the work that she was doing, especially as she was

468
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: in all of her works, is a lot about preservation

469
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: and making sure that her culture is remembered, because I'm

470
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: guessing before she started all of this, she she knew

471
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: a lot of things from her parents, her father who

472
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: would teach them, but it was a word of the mouth.

473
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: And we know we've lost so much because when we

474
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: do see things like colonization, they take away history. That's

475
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: kind of the point of colonization is to take one

476
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: type of history and change it or remove it so

477
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: that the oppressor's history can be the one that dominates it.

478
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: So it seems like, uh, this is something that she

479
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: was able to do in such a beautiful way, in

480
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: a way that a lot of people don't have the talent,

481
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: including myself, to do so to preserve her culture. And

482
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: it makes me both happy and sad to know that

483
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: this is this Like, I'm glad she was able to

484
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: do it and in such an amazing way to express it,

485
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: but also that it has to be this way and

486
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: in order to for it to continue is for her

487
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: to continue to fight and man, she was in her

488
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: fifties when she kind of stopped quote un quote, that's

489
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: a long time to be working as then, young as

490
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: she was when she started to try to fight for

491
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: just her existence and her people's existence. Yeah, it's um. Yeah,

492
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: I like that she said preservation because that showed up

493
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: in her work in so many different ways, like the

494
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: actual preservation of the land, but also the preservation of

495
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 1: her culture, you know, in a very tangible way, because

496
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: she was writing things down, um about her life, specifically,

497
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: so the preservation of her own singular history, but also

498
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: of the traditions and the customs that she was familiar with.

499
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: She was able to share those in person during her life,

500
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: but also in works that lived a lot longer after

501
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: she did so, like I said, she didn't she had

502
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: a gap of of writing. She had written poetry in

503
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: years when she went to China in nine, but she

504
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: was inspired to write again when she was there, and

505
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: those poems were published in English and Chinese. It was

506
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: called kath Walker in China, so that year the year

507
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: of publication was a nineteen eighty eight, but the books

508
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: didn't get to Brisbane until late nineteen eighty nine. She

509
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: also worked on a film as a consultant, the film

510
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: The French Dwellers, and she had an acting role in

511
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 1: that film, and she was known as Kath Walker up

512
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: until nineteen eighty eight. Like I said, but upon the

513
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: Australian by Centenary in nineteen eighty eight, which was a

514
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: marker of the arrival of the first feet of British

515
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: convict ships in Australia, u Drew handed back her Member

516
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: of the Order of the British Empire, which she was

517
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: awarded in nineteen seventy and she publicly changed her name

518
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: to Udru, which is a word for the paper bark tree.

519
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: And she did use the name privately before this. But

520
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: this is when, in a symbol of protest um and solidarity,

521
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: she did hand that medal that was awarded to her

522
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,479
Speaker 1: by the Empire, who still hadn't done who still hadn't

523
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: done things well at the same time she was being

524
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: given this medal for a thing. So as many people

525
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: did return or reject their medals from the British Empire um,

526
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: she did the same. In that moment, It's like it's

527
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: been two hundred years and we're still fighting for the

528
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: same things, and I just I don't need this empty

529
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: um marker of achievement or accomplishment. UM, that's less important

530
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: than what's more important. And she showed that by UM

531
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: changed her name to So she was recognized during her

532
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: lifetime and after she received honorary doctorates from several universities.

533
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: And she passed away in September of But like I said,

534
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: you can't still read her work, some of it. It's

535
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: a little bit harder to access. But her book My

536
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: People is actually still in print, and on the fifth addition,

537
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: I believe I recommend that you read it so you

538
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: get a chance to see some of the stuff that

539
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: she did. Right. But I really connected to a lot

540
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: of her poems, you know, UM, And even though I

541
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: have no personal, lived experience of being an Aboriginal person,

542
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: and I still was able to form a lot of

543
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: connections with the poetry that she wrote as a person

544
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: who cares about and as I experienced a lot of

545
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: the same issues that she was talking about. For instance,

546
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: one of her poems called the Past especially stood out

547
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: to me specifically in this moment, because we are it's February,

548
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: and we're in Black History Month, and I'm consistently thinking

549
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: about the past. But of course in this moment is

550
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: specifically appropriate. UM. The poem talks about nostalgia, communing with ancestors,

551
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 1: her being in the space where she is today, in

552
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: this mode of comfort her and I think she says

553
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: she was by a heater, in a chair or something

554
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: like that, these these technologies that we have today, her

555
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: taking herself back to a place in the woods, in

556
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: nature by fire, being able to commune with her ancestors

557
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: and to be in a space that was in her blood.

558
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 1: Also intimating that the past is not gone, that this

559
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: moment that we're in is fleeting, and also that this

560
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: moment that we're in is a culmination of so much history.

561
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: And these are things that I think about all the time.

562
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that there's probably, well I won't

563
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: say probably, because who am I have been on probability

564
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: like that, but there's a good chance that a lot

565
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: of people will find something in her work that they

566
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: can emphasize with um have possibly experience, but also just appreciate.

567
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: From seeing things from her standpoint and being able to

568
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: understand why she cares so much about the things she did,

569
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: is clear that she was a very passionate individual, very

570
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: unapologetic about being who she was and caring about the

571
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: things that she did and unendingly dedicated to them, and

572
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: that shows up, that shows up in her work, and

573
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: I'm glad that there were people who supported her and

574
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: we're able to. Of course, she did a lot of

575
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: the workers self. Book community is so important in her

576
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: being able to form this sort of international community where

577
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: she could share her thoughts with others, be an educator

578
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: and create art. Right, I think as we're talking about

579
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: all of this and her works and what she did

580
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: in her fight and just finding peace, as you were

581
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 1: talking about, I have a moment of trying to it's

582
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: hard not to compare what we're going through or what

583
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: we see today to pass things and for not to

584
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: americanize it. I apologize, but I know many of the

585
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: indigenous Native peoples here in the US are still fighting

586
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: to have any kind of recognition as a community as

587
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: the original Native Americans to this land, and the fact

588
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: that they have still and continue to still be ignored today,

589
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: and the constant conversation about land is still of battle

590
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: here um in the US and trying to claim their

591
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 1: own land and talking about reparations in any way whatsoever

592
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: for the indigenous community. And I remember thinking, I remember

593
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: hearing about the missing and murdered children Indigenous children of

594
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 1: Australia before I did the US and realizing how big

595
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,479
Speaker 1: of a problem it still is, and how it's still

596
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: not recognized and talked about, and why it's such a

597
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: conversation piece, and why it's still shocking that people are

598
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 1: still finding out for the first time that it's an

599
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: issue though it's been obviously around for years, since the beginning,

600
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: since the beginning of any type of colonization, and we

601
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: talked about history, like I just can't like wrap my

602
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: head around the fact that we're still here and as

603
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 1: much work as she has done, as much work as

604
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: so many other activists have done, we're still here, you know.

605
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: And why that we're talking about their first is so

606
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: important because we so often ignored or don't know by

607
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: because I did not know about this poet, this activist

608
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: until you brought her to us. Thank you very much, Ease.

609
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is we have to

610
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: have these continued conversations because for so long there in

611
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: the background, we pushed them. We as a society today

612
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: me as a person of color, that it's not of

613
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: the indigenous or the black community, have pushed them because

614
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: we have not done the research or we don't we

615
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: just don't know where to go sometimes, but the fact

616
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: that that this is why this is so important because

617
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: we're still here. Yeah, can you tell how I'm frustrated?

618
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: And to add on top of that, also the you

619
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: were mentioning the things that are still happening, like the

620
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: destruction of natural resources as well, when you were drawing

621
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: the parallel between what First nation people are struggling against

622
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: in America's as well versus Australia, because that was a

623
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: big part of what she cared about. Two, Like, there

624
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: are things that are and that she acknowledged and that

625
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: are lost over time in terms of the things that

626
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: people can do in the practices that people are familiar with,

627
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: how we treat the earth. So she talked about how

628
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: much was being lost by colonization in the way that

629
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: people were treating their natural resources in the earth and

630
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 1: hoping that we would be able to see the light,

631
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: so to saying and understand that there were things that

632
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: we had to change in order to create a better

633
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: future for all of us. Like there were the matters

634
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: that were specifically important to First Nations peoples in Australia,

635
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: but these were things that affected everybody. I said infected.

636
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: That felt like a Freudian slit because I guess technically

637
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: they were infecting the earth as well. Um So. But yes,

638
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: to your point, Samantha, is there are so many things

639
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: that um it can be discouraging to look and see

640
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 1: that there were things that she cared about back into

641
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: the mid nineteen hundred's and was talking about for decades

642
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: of her lifetime and still haven't been addressed. Um Let

643
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: alone changed because a lot of the things that you

644
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: were mentioning just now, Samantha, in terms of not only

645
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: is it just they haven't been addressed, it's also like

646
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people are still in denial of the

647
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: fact that they exist and are even happening. And so

648
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 1: to know that we have to go through that hurdle

649
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: to be able to hit the point of meaningful change,

650
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: it sounds like a huge task, and it is a

651
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: huge task, But I think it's good too. It's it's

652
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: it's this double edged sword of and I think about

653
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: this in terms of my own blackness. This is what

654
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: I can relate it to, but a double edged sword

655
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: of knowing just how resilient I am and we are,

656
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: but also how resilient. We have to be because of

657
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: the circumstances. You know, I can't and I've been thinking

658
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: on this a lot. We were about to do a

659
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: book club is Bell Hooks, and of course you know,

660
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: she makes you think on every level. But it's been

661
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: the conversation and the word colonizer has been around for

662
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: a long time, but it's kind of came back as

663
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: a pointed argument to be like, hey, yes, colonization was bad,

664
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: and this is why we need to talk about it.

665
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: And now it's getting to the point that it's kind

666
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: of in that crt conversation of like, don't call me

667
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 1: a colonizer. That's rude, Like I'm not my ancestors. That

668
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 1: that conversation has been coming around. And one of the

669
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: things that I can't help but think of, especially when

670
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: we're talking about like the First People's less indigenous people,

671
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,479
Speaker 1: is that fact that coloni is a partially is due

672
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: to the fact that if we accept the status quo

673
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: of the power of the people who are in power,

674
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: that is the definition of what colonization did and has

675
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: done it is continuing to do in that whole We

676
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: need to just accept it and don't rock the boat

677
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:18,879
Speaker 1: and if you say it out loud and we can't

678
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: just accept what is happening, what has been happening, then

679
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: you're the problem. Why are you making this a problem?

680
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about this as a person of color

681
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: that was in a white community, my white family, and

682
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: how often I would tiptoe around to make them comfortable

683
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: to say you're right. When affirmative action was starting to

684
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: be a conversation in the nineties, was it, especially when

685
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: it came to colleges. I remember my family having a

686
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: big debate about it. Me coming in as a teenager,

687
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: being the model minority that I alway knew I was

688
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: supposed to be, said, Oh, yeah, I definitely don't want

689
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: anything based on my race. I want to be able

690
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: to say I earned it, which is a whole lot

691
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: of both. This is the narrative that a lot of

692
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 1: the white community want us to have in order to say,

693
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: you know, it's not about all these things. But we

694
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: know now. As an older person, I was like, oh,

695
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: the playing field was never equal. There was no equity

696
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: to this at all, and it was based on who

697
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: they liked, and it was based on a system that

698
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: was corrupt and about who was in power. Okay, now

699
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: I get it. But that conversation is the fact that

700
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: this is a part of the colonization conversation that we

701
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: have when we say that we have to accept what

702
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 1: was there before us, and therefore if we rock the boat,

703
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: then we are the problem. And we cannot talk about

704
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: this in a manner which we are uncomfortable. And when

705
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: we say we we mean white people, we mean those

706
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: who are in power, and I feel like I'm being

707
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: very anti white. I'm not necessarily saying that at all,

708
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: but this is when we're talking about colonization and why

709
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: we have to say what it is, and it makes

710
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: you uncomfortable that we need to break down about why

711
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: that was uncomfortable. And I'm going on a rant why

712
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: that makes you uncomfortable because it has been this conversation

713
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: once again, and it's cyclical, and I of like we

714
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: are coming back to at least learning a little more,

715
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: learning a little more. It took me to now, honestly

716
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: to my forties to understand why this word is so

717
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: important and that it should make everybody uncomfortable. As you added,

718
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: as it is, and if you agree that you liked

719
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: how it was, then you are on the side of colonization.

720
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: That makes sense to my giant ran. I should have, yes,

721
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: I should. I should have been taking notes because I

722
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: had notes about a couple of things you said. But

723
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: thinking about word colonizer, because you know, I do so

724
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 1: many history podcasts and have done so many history podcasts.

725
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 1: I think about that a lot, that word and invader

726
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: and explorer and conqueror and all of those words that exist.

727
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: A settler, Oh, that is a big one. I just

728
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: uh word, the word settler, just just I feel it

729
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: in my core. But um, yeah, I think about that

730
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: a lot. And how how difficult it is to talk

731
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: about language because it's something that is insformed so much,

732
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,959
Speaker 1: and it's also so important, and we all speak different

733
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: languages in so many different ways. But also how one

734
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: does not necessarsarily negate the other. I think that's a

735
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: nuanced part of the conversation, where it's like words have

736
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: connotations and they build connotations over time. But like, somebody

737
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: is a colonizer because they are a colonizer because they

738
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: did the deep you know, it's an active word, they

739
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: did the deed of colonizing. And at the same time, okay,

740
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: you can call them explore from from their perspective. You know,

741
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: they were exploring. So I mean both of those things

742
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 1: can exist at the same time. And of course both

743
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: of those things have a lot of asterisks, um, beneath them.

744
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: It's like more conversation that needs to happen. But that's

745
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: what happens when you have such a large thing boiled

746
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: down into however many letters. Is in those words, things

747
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: deserve more conversation And that's okay, Like we don't have

748
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: to be afraid of those conversations. And another that you

749
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: reminded me of when you said, um, you use the

750
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: words rocking the boat. Um, that was actually something that

751
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: came up in Ujeru's story because she was involved in

752
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: these councils that had a lot of white people and

753
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: them like s Cossi and a lot of the people

754
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: in there were trying to maintain the status quo and

755
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: she and others had to fight back against that. But

756
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: and that wasn't just other white people. That was other

757
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: Aboriginal peoples as well who were who didn't know what

758
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: to do, like is should I should should we form

759
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: a council of just Aboriginal people's? Like, is that the

760
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: thing that we should do? Should we what is the

761
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: best way to advance. And it's like that's a question

762
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: that we're forever going to be asking ourselves, like what

763
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: is the right thing to do? We don't know until

764
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: we do the thing, and even then I don't know

765
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: what's right or what's wrong. Um so sometimes, but yeah,

766
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: that was also a part of her story and what

767
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: she was able to do or just exist in that

768
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: lineage of people who she was able to do certain

769
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: things because of other people who came up for her,

770
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: and then other people were able to have some sort

771
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,240
Speaker 1: of guidance because she had already taken all this action

772
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: before them. And so this idea of self determination, self sufficiency,

773
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: the ideologies, the thoughts in her own practice of activism

774
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: that changed over her time when it came to her

775
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: being more about that solidarity UNI among Aboriginal people in

776
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: that self determination was able to inspire and be a

777
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: point on the timeline of that evolution, right Yeah, And

778
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: her timing was right in there. She was obviously at

779
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: the beginning of so many of the changes in Australia

780
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: as you were talking about, because right and I was

781
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 1: saying that the majority of voting rights for Aboriginal people

782
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: did not happen until three and that though some states

783
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: had it had the rights, it wasn't an overall countrywide thing.

784
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: And she obviously was in the middle of that and

785
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 1: a part of that, so she was in the fight.

786
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: Now my question is because being active in so many

787
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 1: of the communities, I'm like, I've also been the token

788
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 1: person and in being told at least we got see,

789
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: we got we got a person of color here she

790
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: she exists. I wonder how oftentimes they would point be like, well,

791
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: look we got we got one, which is also the

792
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: whole like performative awarding. Like I understand why she was like, nah,

793
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to give it back. I don't want

794
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: to do with this because of how I wonder how

795
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: often that did happen in her life, being on the

796
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: forefront of trying to make change but being blocked in

797
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 1: so many ways. Yeah, yeah, I love that she was

798
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: so active in the school and like with children. I

799
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: really like that she wrote books for children and was

800
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: trying to at a young age like have this influence

801
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: and and have these conversations that are so so so important.

802
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: That's one of my favorite parts of her story. And

803
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: working on podcasts. Yeah, language is so important. It's so important,

804
00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: and you have to think about what word you choose

805
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: and why you chose it and what impact it has.

806
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: And she seems like somebody. I really encourage people to

807
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: go out and read her poetry because it's so it's

808
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: easy to read, but she does so much with like

809
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: so little, Like she immediately kind of like hooks you

810
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: in and you even though the words might seem simple,

811
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 1: like it just it resonates. And I think that shows

812
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: like just how wonderful and of a writer she was,

813
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 1: and how she knew like how to work with words

814
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: and how to work with people's emotions and she was

815
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: feeling these things and she was able to make you

816
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: feel them too, and I think that's so much skill.

817
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: And I loved I'm so happy when you bring someone

818
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: I haven't heard of and like, oh I get to

819
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: read poetry and I'm so moved. I love it. And

820
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: that's the other thing about it, Like it's not necessarily

821
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: easy read in terms of the context and what she's

822
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: talking about, but it's you know, you can get to

823
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: a book of poetry, you know, it goes pretty quickly.

824
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: So if you're hesitant or skeptical about any of it,

825
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: it's not hard to pick up, you know. Yeah, yeah,

826
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the one of my

827
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 1: favorite things about art in all of its many forms,

828
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: is when you can have something like that where you

829
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 1: can bring people into this difficult subject matter but that

830
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: in a way that they can connect to and we'll

831
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: stick with them and make them think yes. Because if

832
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: you're not particularly interested, and obviously, as we talked about

833
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: her story, Ujaru was not steeped in the academic world,

834
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: and that space can be so alienating to so many

835
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: people and so foreign to so many people. And to

836
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 1: say that because something is simple means that it's in

837
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: it's not valuable. I mean, it doesn't make any sense

838
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: to put it, to put it smartly. Um, So it's

839
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 1: it's good. It's it's good. Like they're so they're so touching,

840
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: so many so touching and so visceral. And it does

841
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: what quote treat does, what poet try does. It does,

842
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: it does highly recommend seeking it out. There's plenty of

843
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: places that have a lot of samples if you just

844
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: want to taste to see if you're into it. But yeah,

845
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: I really loved it. Well, is that have we wrapped

846
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: up the story? Eves. I think that's all I got.

847
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks as always for coming. We're always

848
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: so happy to have you, happy to be here. Yes,

849
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: thank you for bringing all these people who we need

850
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: to know more of. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Where can

851
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: the good listeners find you? You can find me online

852
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: at Eve jeffc dot com, Instagram, not apologizing Twitter, I'm

853
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 1: so I'm clearly jaded at Twitter at us Jeff Coe

854
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: and on this very podcast here doing other episodes of

855
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: Female First for a lot of people you can go

856
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: check out. Yeah, I love it. I love the jaded,

857
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 1: like fine me I am. If I exist. You should

858
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: definitely seek eaves out if you haven't already. Listeners or

859
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: content is amazing and you can seek us out as well.

860
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: You can emails at Stuff to your Mom and stuff

861
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: at ihart me dot com. You can find us on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or Instagram and Stuff I've

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Speaker 1: Never Told You. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,

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Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've

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Speaker 1: Never Told the production of iHeart Radio. For more podcast

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Speaker 1: on my Heart Radio, visit that horredo app Apple podcast

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Speaker 1: Ready listen to favorite shows