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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori

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Speaker 1: with you. Let me tell you about Donald Schmidt, a

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Speaker 1: sixth time bestselling author and the former co director of

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Speaker 1: the J. Allen Hinech Center for UFO Studies in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: where he served as director of Special Investigations for ten years.

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Speaker 1: A co founder of the world famous International UFOL Museum

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Speaker 1: and Research Center in Roswell, he serves there as an

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Speaker 1: advisor to the board of directors. An internationally known investigative

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Speaker 1: journalist and a darn good one and lecturer, His first book,

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Speaker 1: UFO Crash at Ooswell was made into a Golden Globe

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Speaker 1: nominated movie called Roswell. Don welcome to the program. It's

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Speaker 1: always a pleasure having you on the show. Well, thank you, George,

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Speaker 1: and as always a pleasure to be back. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much. You are my friend, one of the giants

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Speaker 1: of uphology. Well, those are considering the people that I

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Speaker 1: have been most influenced by, the late doctors Jail and Heinech,

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Speaker 1: and certainly our dear friend Stanton Friedman. Oh guy, I

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Speaker 1: have big shoes to film, but we strive every day

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Speaker 1: to make them proud. I guess I'm going to have

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Speaker 1: you talk about Stan and Heineck as we go through

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Speaker 1: this hour. I have to tell you a great story.

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Speaker 1: I got into broadcasting at a young age because I

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Speaker 1: wanted to unravel the stories you've covered in your career.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do UFOs and ghosts and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So at twenty one, while he was still going to

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Speaker 1: the University of Detroit, I got a job as a

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Speaker 1: radio reporter at a radio station in Detroit, a pretty

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Speaker 1: significant one. In my first interview, I noticed a little

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Speaker 1: clipping in the Detroit News that says, uphologists and nuclear

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Speaker 1: physicists Stanton Freedman will be speaking at Oakland University to

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Speaker 1: a group of business people about UFOs. And I saw

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Speaker 1: that and went, oh my god, I got to cover this.

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Speaker 1: So I went to my news director and I said,

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Speaker 1: please let me, let me cover the story, and he said,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to pay you overtime to cover UFOs.

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Speaker 1: If you want to go, go yourself. Well I did,

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Speaker 1: and I interviewed Stan Freedman. He was my first interview

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Speaker 1: when I was twenty one years old. Now let's jump

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Speaker 1: ahead a couple of years ago Columbus, Ohio. We're doing

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Speaker 1: our live stage show stands one of our special guests

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Speaker 1: on the program. He looked great. On his way home,

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Speaker 1: he dies at the airport and of all the places,

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Speaker 1: why my god, oh my god, I mean, not to

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Speaker 1: be with his wife or even anyone else of close

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Speaker 1: personal association. But he still went out doing what he loved.

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Speaker 1: He did, and I was, now, this is what's ironic.

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Speaker 1: He was my first interview, yes, and I was the

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Speaker 1: last person to interview him, precisely as though it was

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Speaker 1: meant it was destiny. Yes, but what a uphologist and

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Speaker 1: she met the world to you, well, any and he did.

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Speaker 1: And I know there were times that well sure, but

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Speaker 1: that's what you know, people that are, you know, investigating

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Speaker 1: a mystery where you don't have any answers. There's no

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Speaker 1: such thing as an expert in Ufoh, it's because we

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Speaker 1: don't have those answers as of yet. And you're going

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Speaker 1: to butt heads, you're going to you know, disagree. But

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Speaker 1: that's what kept it so you know, exciting, because at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day we still were friends and colleagues,

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Speaker 1: and our investigations, you know, we'd often you know, it

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Speaker 1: would share a microphone or a camera, and we'd always

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Speaker 1: agree ahead of times. You know, we only are going

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Speaker 1: to you know, cover common ground. We're not going to

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Speaker 1: disagree on camera or anything. And he was a total gentleman,

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Speaker 1: and just like Heineck. I don't think there's a day

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Speaker 1: that goes by that. I don't think. Now what would Allen?

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Speaker 1: What would Stan say in this situation? Absolutely? And when

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Speaker 1: Stan started investigating Roswell, of course, and you were part

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Speaker 1: of that, well no, actually in my case it would

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Speaker 1: have been with Kevin Randon when we started out. It

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Speaker 1: would have been eleven years later later. Okay, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: then it did Stan have an influence on you? Oh? Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: But I was I can't emphasize an up, George. I

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Speaker 1: was a skeptic. In fact, even when the first book

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Speaker 1: came out that in many regards, you know, Stan received

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Speaker 1: little acclaim where he did he was the primary investigator,

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Speaker 1: and he was only acknowledged in the book Rosal Incident

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Speaker 1: by Charles Burlitz and William Moore. And Stan was doing

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Speaker 1: a talk in uh I believe it was Lakeland College

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Speaker 1: in northern Illinois, and I was there with Stan, and

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Speaker 1: even afterwards backstage and at the center of forew of

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Speaker 1: those studies. We were talking about going down to Mexico

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Speaker 1: and you know, proving that this was a weather balloon

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Speaker 1: device maintains after all these years, or something else conventional.

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Speaker 1: And I asked, Stan, if you feel you've interviewed all

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Speaker 1: the witnesses and he went, oh, my god, dot no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure. He said, I'm sure there are hundreds of

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Speaker 1: people that we've yet to locate. And I asked, how

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Speaker 1: would you like some help? And he could not have

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Speaker 1: been more encouraging. And it's like, don if you guys

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Speaker 1: want to take a swing at it, you know we're

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Speaker 1: running out of time. Stan was the one who coined

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Speaker 1: the phrase we're racing with the undertaker exactly. That's exactly

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Speaker 1: where we were with the World War two generation. What

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Speaker 1: was it done that turned you around from being that skeptic, well,

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Speaker 1: both Kevin Randall and myself at that time. It was

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Speaker 1: talking to the first hand witnesses to the unusual characteristics

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Speaker 1: of the wreckage, the debris, whether it was military, whether

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Speaker 1: they were the ranchers, they're hired hands, even their children

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Speaker 1: who were involved north of Roswell, and their descriptions were

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Speaker 1: identical about just how super strong the material was and

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Speaker 1: witless in their hands, and they were describing the fiber optics,

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Speaker 1: and then when they were describing the memory characteristics, where

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Speaker 1: it was the same super strong material, but you could

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Speaker 1: fold it, you could crease it, you could crumbled into

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Speaker 1: a ball, and every time you'd place it down, it

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Speaker 1: would slowly unravel right before your eyes to its original

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Speaker 1: shape and size. And we're looking at one another and going,

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Speaker 1: my god, we have to treat this like it's the

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Speaker 1: real thing, because if we're wrong, we're you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: smarily dismissing the biggest story of the millennium. And from

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Speaker 1: there on we went where the evidence took us, and

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Speaker 1: that's where we are today. And how did you get

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Speaker 1: involved with doctor Jmen Heineck. Well, Heineck had observed some

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Speaker 1: of my reports with the Area Phenomenal Research Organization where

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Speaker 1: I had started initially because both Coral and Jim Lorenz

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Speaker 1: and the founders of that particular group were from here

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Speaker 1: in Wisconsin, and so I became involved with them after college.

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Speaker 1: And then Heineck, you know, observed some of my reports

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Speaker 1: and he invited me down to his home in Evanston, Illinois,

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Speaker 1: and he asked if I'd be interested in if yous,

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Speaker 1: And before I knew it, I was getting regular cases,

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Speaker 1: and I was being invited down on a regular basis,

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Speaker 1: and we spent many a trip together in the field.

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Speaker 1: And what was sad about doctor Heinech, who was even

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Speaker 1: ten years younger than Stan was when he passed away.

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Speaker 1: It was Heineck who was always lamenting, I'm an old

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Speaker 1: man in a hurry. I'm an old man in a hurry.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think there's anything worse than feeling that

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Speaker 1: there you are, in your last years and you still

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Speaker 1: have a mission unaccomplished. Was he haunted by that swamp

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Speaker 1: gas story from Dexter, Michigan. I wouldn't say so much haunted,

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Speaker 1: as he felt it was an unfair label. And because

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Speaker 1: when heine still working for Project Bluebook at that time,

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Speaker 1: when he arrived and the Dexter and Arbor sightings in

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Speaker 1: sixty six, when he arrived, the press just swarmed him.

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Speaker 1: They wanted answers. They felt that the Air Force had

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Speaker 1: already been covering up the entire situation, and there was

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Speaker 1: only it was one particular sighting involving a farmer who

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Speaker 1: saw a glowing orb over a marshland and Heineck only

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Speaker 1: intended it to apply to explain that one incident during

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Speaker 1: that time. But to give you another example, George, doctor

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Speaker 1: Jalen Heinick interviewed an Air Force officer who was a

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Speaker 1: witness to the entire series of sightings, and blue Book

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Speaker 1: totally scrubbed that they would not let that one go public.

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Speaker 1: But the swamp guess yes, they loved that because they

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Speaker 1: felt that Heinick would be stuck, you know, explaining that,

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Speaker 1: and obviously he was their scientific advisor. And as you describe,

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Speaker 1: he never lived it down. No, no, never did. I've

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Speaker 1: always been told that it was the police officer Lonnie

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Speaker 1: Zamora case from Socorral, New Mexico that turned Heineck around

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Speaker 1: and made him a believer totally. But before that there

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Speaker 1: was a slow evolution and what Heinick especially was alarmed

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Speaker 1: about it, and he threatened to resign Blue Book numerous times.

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Speaker 1: And that was the fact that in the field on

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Speaker 1: the road, doctor Heinnick was constantly talking to military pilots

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Speaker 1: and commercial pilots about their you know, aerial experiences. And

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Speaker 1: when he would go down the right patterson to look

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Speaker 1: through the monthly blue Book files. He'd asked, no, where

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Speaker 1: did that, where's this report? Where's that with the testimony?

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Speaker 1: And he realizes he would say all the hardcore cases

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Speaker 1: were going upstairs, that they were not part of the

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Speaker 1: blue Book system. And it was the Lonnie Zamora case

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Speaker 1: in April sixty four that you had physical traces. You

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Speaker 1: had Zamora witnessed as far as the two occupants outside

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Speaker 1: of the crab and Hector Quintonella, who was the final

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Speaker 1: director of blue Book, as hard as he tried, he

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Speaker 1: couldn't come up with a conventional explanation. Heinnik would say

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Speaker 1: that as much as he tried to prove that case,

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Speaker 1: he couldn't. That he had to accept that it was

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Speaker 1: definitely a genuine U. Now, what did you think of

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Speaker 1: the funeral director Glenn Dennis from Roswell, Well, they're mixed

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Speaker 1: impressions of Glenn, and we were able to determine that

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Speaker 1: as Glenn Dennis, who worked at the Ballard Funeral Home

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Speaker 1: in July of nineteen forty seven, he did receive phone calls.

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Speaker 1: There were calls from the base hospital inquiring as to

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Speaker 1: what techniques could be used for the preservation of body

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Speaker 1: tissues and fluids which have been exposed to the elements,

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Speaker 1: to the desert climate for some days at the time.

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Speaker 1: And then there were also calls about child sized caskets,

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Speaker 1: and we spoke to the son of a contracted truck

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Speaker 1: driver who would indeed go up to Amarilla, Texas and

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Speaker 1: pick up caskets, and he described that that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: they did, that they needed to pick up a number

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Speaker 1: of child sized caskets. The part of the story of

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Speaker 1: Glenn going out and meet with the nurse and that

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Speaker 1: she described, you know, a preliminary autopsy at the base hospital,

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Speaker 1: we have serious doubts about because Glenn gave us the

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Speaker 1: wrong name of the nurse, and we spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time chasing, you know, basically a phantom who never existed.

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Speaker 1: Now there was a nurse. Her name was Adeline Fatten.

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Speaker 1: She was stationed at the base at that time, and

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Speaker 1: she looked like a young Audrey Hepburn, as Glenn would describe,

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Speaker 1: and she had considered going into the sisterhood, into the

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Speaker 1: convent before going into the Army, a nurse corps. But

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Speaker 1: what it actually comes down to, George, is that Glenn was,

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Speaker 1: you know, having an affair with that nurse and it

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Speaker 1: was his way of covering it up. Yeah, interesting was

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Speaker 1: that Allie was covering up well. We didn't have a

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Speaker 1: chance to get a final deathbed confession with Glenn. The

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Speaker 1: family pretty much protected him from any further visits. But

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Speaker 1: he never recanted on any of his original story. But

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Speaker 1: it's just that as investigators we have to corroborate, We

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Speaker 1: have to find out independent witnesses. Were there any Roswall

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Speaker 1: witnesses done who took lie detector tests not lie detector

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Speaker 1: tests because we never felt it necessary because they weren't

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Speaker 1: claiming to be in possession of material that later disappeared.

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Speaker 1: That type of thing. Often we were dealing with elderly

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Speaker 1: people that we just felt we didn't want to become interrogators.

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Speaker 1: We were looking for the information, not their names, to

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Speaker 1: be published and then looking for that additional corroboration. And

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Speaker 1: for having interviewed, between Tom Carey and myself over six

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Speaker 1: hundred witnesses either directly are indirectly involved, and the number

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Speaker 1: of sworn affidavits and a video depth positions as well

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Speaker 1: as deathbed confessions. Again, the testimony is unanimous that Roswell

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Speaker 1: in July of nineteen forty seven, did indeed happen? You

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Speaker 1: and I both knew Jesse Marcel Junior, whose father apparently

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Speaker 1: flew the wreckage the right Patterson. Did you ever meet

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Speaker 1: the father? No? No, And that was something that I

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Speaker 1: regretted much as far as especially with Stan having been

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Speaker 1: one of the principal researchers who did invest interviewed. He

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Speaker 1: did meet him, though Senior Lenn Springfield interviewed him. There

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Speaker 1: were a number of reporters who had interviewed Jess Senior,

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Speaker 1: but he often got in trouble or at least people

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Speaker 1: questioned when he said he flew the wreckage, Well, it's

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Speaker 1: so different than you fly. I fly, but we're just passengers,

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Speaker 1: and he was. He was a passenger. It was on

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Speaker 1: a B twenty nine bomber called Dave's Dream that went

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Speaker 1: out on Tuesday, July eighth, that flew to Fort Worth

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Speaker 1: for that infamous weather balloon press conference with General Roger Ramie.

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Speaker 1: And it was just Marcel just saying the wrong thing

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Speaker 1: about or at least his being misinterpreted what he actually meant.

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Speaker 1: What was it that caused the government to change the story,

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Speaker 1: because the initial report was there was a flying craft

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Speaker 1: right then it went down that they had captured a

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Speaker 1: flying saucer and because when the rancher WW Brazil first

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Speaker 1: reported the find that Sunday, July sixth, but he didn't

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Speaker 1: go to the military. Now you're talking about the first

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Speaker 1: atomic bomb squadron in the world stationed at Rosa Army Airfield.

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Speaker 1: At that time, they were the elite within the military

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Speaker 1: where they selected the best officers, the best pilot's crew, doctors, nurses.

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Speaker 1: It was a composite unit. And that just the fact

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Speaker 1: that they were the best in our United States military

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Speaker 1: at that time. And Brazil, the rancher, he didn't go

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Speaker 1: to the military. He went to the courthouse. He went

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Speaker 1: to the sheriff, Sheriff George Wilcox, So he was the

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Speaker 1: sheriff who then in turn contacted the base and who

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Speaker 1: should pick up the phone but Jess Marcel Senior, and

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Speaker 1: he immediately went to the courthouse retrieved a box of

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Speaker 1: the wreckage brought in by the rancher. He returned back

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Speaker 1: to the base. Now, and keeping in mind, this is

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Speaker 1: the fourth of July holiday weekend. Most of the base

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Speaker 1: personnel home on leave. Nothing's been reported missing, they haven't

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Speaker 1: been testing anything. The skies are quiet, and then this

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Speaker 1: rancher comes in describing this huge debrief field that covered

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Speaker 1: an area of almost a mile long, and how this

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Speaker 1: rose in importance from minute to minute because Jess Marcel.

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Speaker 1: He immediately alerts the very base commander, Colonel William Blanchard. Well,

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Speaker 1: then Blanchard dispatches Marcel and a counterintelligence officer by the

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Speaker 1: name of Sheridan Cabot to go check out you know this,

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Speaker 1: find this this crash. But a Blanchard then contacts Washington,

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Speaker 1: and he does it by first trying to contact his boss,

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Speaker 1: General Roger Ramie, who is head of the eighth Air

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Speaker 1: Force at Carsta Army Airfield in Fort Worth. Well, Ramy's

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Speaker 1: home on leave himself. He's with family in Debton, Texas,

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Speaker 1: and he speaks to his chiefest staff, Colonel Thomas de

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Speaker 1: Bos with the bows contacts Washington and he gets receives

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Speaker 1: a phone call it back from General Clemens McMullen, who

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Speaker 1: was Deputy Director of Strategic Air Command. The point being

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Speaker 1: that Washington already knows about the crash late evening of Sunday,

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Speaker 1: July sixth, and they have material in hand by late

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Speaker 1: Sunday evening, July sixth, sent by Blanchard from Roswell. So

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Speaker 1: this is a day and a half before the press release,

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Speaker 1: and the point being George Washington is in on the

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Speaker 1: press release. They had to acknowledge the fact that something

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Speaker 1: crashed because as it had already had leaked to the press.

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Speaker 1: And they first they created the straw man. They first

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Speaker 1: built it up, and then they tore it down. Oh story,

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Speaker 1: lays and gentlemen, we were raw. It's just a weather

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Speaker 1: balloon with a radar reflector kite. And here are the parts.

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Speaker 1: But here and here are the pieces of the weather balloon.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I remember that picture of Ramy with weather

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Speaker 1: balloon stuff scattered all over the place, that's right all

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Speaker 1: over his office floor, and the very thought that this

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Speaker 1: is what the people in charge of the atomic bomb,

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Speaker 1: you know, misidentified as a weather balloon. First time and

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Speaker 1: only time in history, a weather balloon was ever misidentified

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Speaker 1: with caskets right, with caskets. Yes. Listen to more Coast

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Speaker 1: to Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern and

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Speaker 1: go to Coast to Coast am dot com for more