1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and welcome to stuff. I've never 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: told you your production of I Heart Radio. And it 3 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: is time for another book club, which is very exciting. 4 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: Today we are talking about Brittany Cooper's book Eloquent Rage. 5 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: A black feminist discovers her superpower, and in it she 6 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: covers all kinds of ground from feminism, racism, homophobia, misogyny, 7 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: the importance of friendships between black girls and black women, 8 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: white supremacy, police brutality, white girl tears, love, family, fear, 9 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: hip hop being, southern respectability, politics, joy, religion, and lots 10 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: of Beyonce, all with personal anecdotes, statistics, contexts, and history. 11 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: She digs into all the damn dropped by the structural 12 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: white supremacy and misogyny in our society and how it 13 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: specifically has impacted Black women. Since it's released, this book 14 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: has won so many accolades, has been on so many 15 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: list including signatures five books that bring intersectional phonism to 16 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: the forefront. Her writing is funny, it's vulnerable, precise and sharp. 17 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: She does not mince words, and she puts black women 18 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: and girls first and asks why aren't we doing that 19 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: as a society? Right? So I actually went to see 20 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: her speak. She did a tour with this book specifically, 21 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: and it was phenomenal. Of course, she is beyond entertaining. 22 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: She is so real and she is very upfront in 23 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: all the things that she speaks of through this book obviously, 24 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: and she did read a little bit of an excerpt, 25 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: but it is both condemning I think of non black 26 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: people as well as refreshing to understand a little more 27 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: perspective and trying to get to that place. But yeah, 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: if you get a chance and she is one day 29 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: out about because you know, no more pandemic maybe crossing fingers, 30 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: that you should definitely go and cr spe because she 31 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: does a phenomenal job. Yes, absolutely, and we highly recommend 32 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 1: this book and it is very very informative, but also 33 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: does come from this personal yeah space, which makes it 34 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: really easy to read. Sounds like so bland, but it 35 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: does like you can connect to it. Yeah, it's very personable. Yes. Yes. 36 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: In an interview with The Glow Up, Cooper said, what 37 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: do black women and girls need? What does it look 38 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: like to create a world in which black women and 39 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 1: girls can thrive? That should always be the fundamental sort 40 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: of opening question, right, and with that just go ahead 41 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: and put this caveat off there. Obviously, I'm an Asian 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: American woman and Annie is a white woman. It sounds 43 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: weird when I say Asian American, I just call you white. 44 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: That's legit, but it's kind of like, oh, okay, yeah, 45 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: there you go. So obviously we're coming from a background 46 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: of being spectators, and we say that respecifually in that 47 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: we do not have these personal experiences and we cannot 48 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: come from that point of view and would never deign 49 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: to think that we can, and we should. And she 50 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: does talk a lot throughout this book about anti blackness, 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,119 Speaker 1: and that needs to be a conversation in itself that 52 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: it's not just racism, is anti blackness that she's specifically 53 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: talking of, and how it comes to the forefront of 54 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: her life experience in many ways, whether it's what she's 55 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: watching on TV and trying to relate to what she's 56 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: reading as a child and what is available to her. 57 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: That a lot of it is not created in the 58 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: point of view for black girls or black women, and 59 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: that is really unfortunate. And I say this as an 60 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: Asian woman who I didn't have that perspective much either, 61 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: But my experience is still vastly different from hers because 62 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: I am not a black woman. So we're gonna go 63 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: ahead and put that caveat out there. Absolutely, But we 64 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: still think it's really important to read these perspectives because 65 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: it gives you a personable idea of what is happening. 66 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: Is something that you cannot understand just by being there, 67 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: if that makes sense, just by being present, like just 68 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: by being friends with someone or knowing of someone, you 69 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: need to hear from her own words to truly understand 70 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: where she's coming from. So definitely read this book. Definitely 71 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: get this book. Definitely buy from independent book stores to 72 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: speaking but up there. So Cooper ourselves has written for 73 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: several publications, including a monthly column for Cosmopolitan touching on 74 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: issues of race, gender politics, among other things. And she's 75 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: also the co founder for the Krunk Feminist Collectives, so 76 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: named because quote what others may call audacious and crazy, 77 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: we call krunk because we are drunk off the heavy 78 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: theory of feminism that proclaims that another world is possible. 79 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: And she's also a professor at Rutgers University of Women's 80 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: in Gender Studies and Afrikana Studies and again a frequent speaker, 81 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: which I've been able to attend at other universities and institutions. 82 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: And in her book she details her determination to not 83 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: only go to college, but to graduate to get out 84 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: of the small town she grew up in, and how 85 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: this determination sideline many other aspects of her life, but 86 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: also how she accomplished her dreams. Yeah. Yeah, when you 87 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: have like the singular goal, she described it as I 88 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: do this, and this is first and foremost, and then 89 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: what happens when you accomplish that thing? And one thing 90 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: I do love about this book is she's very introspective 91 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: and clear that she's still working through a lot of 92 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: things and her thoughts around a lot of things, which is, yeah, 93 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: really open and honest and vulnerable, because I feel like 94 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: a lot of us feel that way, especially like when 95 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: you talk about feminism where maybe you did get a 96 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: late start in it, like Samantha and I have talked about, 97 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: and you're feeling like there's this standard and you have 98 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: to meet it, but what does that mean when you do? 99 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: Like like, she's very very clear in her love for 100 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: hip hop, which is awesome, but she talks about that like, well, 101 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: what about the misogyny lyrics and what does that mean? 102 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: And I think that's what we all kind of like, 103 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: talking about the idea of that feminism and what does 104 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,679 Speaker 1: that look like? And are you a bed feminist because 105 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: you enjoy things that are not feminist and you realize this. 106 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: I think we just spoke about it when I was 107 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: talking to Eves about my love for musical especially old 108 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: school musicals, and I love this one that is ridiculously 109 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: sexist and misogynistic and over the top, but I loved 110 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: it so much growing up. And this guilt of oh, 111 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: what do I do about this? Right? Right? It's a 112 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: universal feeling, I think for for feminist. So the title 113 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: of this book came from a former student who told Cooper, 114 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: I loved having you as my professor. Your lectures were 115 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: filled with rage, but it was like the most eloquent 116 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: rage ever. And while this was something Cooper initially shied 117 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: away from for a variety of reasons, some of which 118 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: we'll talk about, she came to embrace it as powerful, inspirational, 119 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: and necessary her superpower, and the book details her effort 120 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: to quote use rage with precision. Cooper describes herself as 121 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: a capital B, capital F black feminist. So I really 122 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: wanted to read the opening line because I love it. 123 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: This is a book by a grown woman, written for 124 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: other grown women. This is a book for women who 125 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: expect to be taken seriously and for men who take 126 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: grown women seriously. This is a book for women who 127 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: note is up. These women want to change things but 128 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: don't know where to begin. Weish go ahead and put 129 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: out there. This is an adult book. Yes, yes, you 130 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: can't tell already quick and yeah. Cooper's writing is so 131 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: honest and how she's been and how she's still working 132 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: on her own thoughts around like feminism. And I think 133 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: we can all say we've all had these moments of 134 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what that means. And a lot 135 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: of it has to do with identity. And I will 136 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: say again I've talked about this previously, about the fact 137 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: I'm trying to find my identity because I don't quite 138 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: understand who I am when it comes to race, ethnicity, 139 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: all those things. And she talks about her own identity 140 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: as a woman, as a black woman, and how all 141 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: these intersecting identities coincide, and and that's the kind of 142 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: the correlation is you don't realize it. You think it 143 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: fights against each other when you think about the old 144 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: school ideas, and she talks about that too, about how 145 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: feminism for so long was white feminism and how it's 146 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: so dangerous, but coming back to the fact that this 147 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: is not true and what it looks like when you 148 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: actually allow them to become who you are, and that 149 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: this identity do coincide and do collaborate with each other, 150 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: right right. For all of this, she uses these personal antiductes, 151 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: like we said, and whether it is her her single 152 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: mom working to figure things out and provide for her family, 153 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: her grandmother talking to her about sex, both her mother 154 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: and grandmother talking to her about finding a man, her 155 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: father's absence growing up and getting to know him after 156 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: he was shot and killed. All of that to extrapolate 157 00:08:54,200 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: on these larger issues of race and gender and politics 158 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: and understanding how those things do intersect and how the 159 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: individual experiences You can't remove it from the structures that 160 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: we live in, and you can recognize both, but the influence. 161 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: You can't blame an individual for issues, right And I 162 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: think it's interesting, as we were talking about how it 163 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: becomes intersecting, that she has to coincide what she thought 164 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: was for one community could be applied to all communities, 165 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: but how that looks when you are under the umbrella 166 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: of the bigger intersectionality, whether it is being of a 167 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: minority or a marginal community, as well as a marginal 168 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: community which could be based on race or sexual orientation, 169 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: all of that, Like what does that look like, especially 170 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: when one may seem to go against another. But she 171 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: talks about more later on about when it comes to 172 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: black men supporting black women, you know, as well as 173 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: straight black women supporting LGBTQ black women, Like what does 174 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: that look like? Yeah? Absolutely, And we do have a 175 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: lot of themes, as we were wanting to do in 176 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: these episodes to go over. But first we're gonna pause 177 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: for a quick break for wordsim more sponsor and we're back, 178 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 1: Thank you, sponsor. And we did want to start with 179 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: some themes that she opens the book with that many 180 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: of us are familiar with. Are the sassy and angry 181 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: black woman trope. That whole right, and she quotes when 182 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: it comes to black women, sometimes Americans don't recognize that 183 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: sath is simply a more palatable form of rage, which 184 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: I think is funny because if you're trying to be nice, 185 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: you do use that term being sassy sassy, right, But 186 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: she continues on the same Americans adore are sassy black women. 187 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: You know, those caricatures are finger waving, eye rolling black 188 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: women at whom everyone loves to laugh, women like Tyler 189 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: Perry's media. Which is a whole different conversation because I 190 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: think I've talked about it before, how my family uses 191 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: that as their standard of the black community, which we 192 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: know shouldn't be the case, because Tyler Perry's intention was 193 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: to be more satirical of it. But that's a whole 194 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: different conversation will come back to. But also she talks 195 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: about Mami in Gone with the wind Or Nell from 196 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: the old eighties sitcom Give Me a Break, and she says, 197 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: these kinds of black women put white folks at ease. 198 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: And again, as I said, absolutely like the Tyler Perry 199 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: movies that my parents and my brother would watch, who 200 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: he loved, who I've talked about many times that probably 201 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: he's not oldest brother and I have had odds with, 202 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: I guess is the most way to put it, and 203 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: the most strained relationship with He uses this as his 204 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: example to him of the black community, and it's often 205 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: again so to nical and over the top comedy that 206 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: is not really meant for why audiences, but because it's 207 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: out there, that's what their standard is. And I will 208 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: tell you my family does not know a lot of 209 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: black people, and we're gonna put that out there, and 210 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: how it ere tastes out of me that that's their example. 211 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: And she is absolutely right. They love it. They think 212 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: it's hilarious. It's a point of ease for them as 213 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: well as point in comedy, which is dangerous. Yeah. Absolutely, 214 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: And we see this everywhere, right, like this sassy black 215 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: woman character. I mean, you would recognize it's pretty stunning 216 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: in some ways how often it is used and often 217 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: unfortunately that might be the only black character in there, 218 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: especially black woman character exactly, and how it's weabinized against 219 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: the black community in itself. Right. And so here's another 220 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: quote we wanted to include. Owning anger is a dangerous 221 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: thing if a fat black girl like me, Angry black 222 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: women get dismissed all the time. We were told we 223 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: are irrational, crazy, out of touch, entitled, disruptive, and not 224 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: team players. The story goes that angry black women scare babies, 225 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: old people, and grown men. This is absurd and it 226 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: is a lie. If you have the nerve to be 227 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: fat and angry, then you're treated as a bully, even 228 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 1: if you're doing nothing aggressive at all. The truth is 229 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: that angry black women are looked upon as entities to 230 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: be contained, as inconvenient citizens who keep on talking about 231 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: their rights while refusing to do their duty and smile 232 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: at everyone. Don't you just hate when folks feel at you? 233 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: Just smile? I told the last man that said that 234 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: to me, you smile, which I love because you know, 235 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: I hate that to him. Right, And a big part 236 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: of this book, I feel like that title would definitely indicate, 237 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: is about reclaiming this rightfully felt rage that has often 238 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: been webinized, and honestly, when it comes to black women, 239 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: almost everything is weabinized, and we could just clearly state that. 240 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: But she's using this rage precisely and elopenly, And I 241 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: think that is the point, because she did take offense 242 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: at first about being told you're you're you have raged, 243 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: but it's eloquencies like excuse me no, But thinking back, right, 244 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: thinking back on what those connotations were and what truly 245 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: could be, she claimed it. And I think that has 246 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: been a bigger defense for specifically the black community, specifically 247 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: black women to have to proclaim it, kind of like 248 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: how we talk about the word bitch and how women 249 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: have taken that on as a mantle because it's been 250 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: webinized against them. So the only tactic is, you know what, Okay, 251 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: let me embrace this in order to turn this around. 252 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: And unfortunately it is a constant practice for black women 253 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: and it has to be but in the idea that 254 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: they're always having to play the defensive essentially because they're 255 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: constantly being attacked. And one of the best examples is 256 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: rage or that sassy, angry black woman. And it's kind 257 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: of that same trope that we see constantly, honest, higher skill. 258 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about this and examples I've seen 259 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: in entertainment, and it does feel just so like dismissive 260 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: and just like an easy way to laugh at what 261 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: are legitimate concerns. Yeah. Absolutely, and Cooper went on to 262 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: say black women have the right to be mad as hell. 263 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: We have been dreaming of freedom and carving out spaces 264 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: for liberations since we arrived on these shores. There's no 265 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: other group save indigenous women, that knows and understands more 266 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: fully the soul of the American body politic than black 267 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: women whose reproductive and social labor have made the world 268 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: what it is. This is not mere propaganda. Black women 269 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: know what it means to love ourselves in a world 270 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: that hates us. We know what it means to do 271 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: a whole lot with very little to quote, make a 272 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: dollar out of fifteen cents, as it were. We know 273 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: what it means to snatch dignity from the jaws of 274 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: power and come outstanding. We know what it means to 275 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: face horrific violence and trauma from both our communities and 276 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: our nation state and carry on anyway. But we also 277 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: scream and cry and hurt and morn and struggle. We 278 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: get heartbroken, our feelings get stepped on, our dreams get crushed, 279 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: We get angry, and we expressed that anger. We know 280 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: what it means to feel invisible. And I think that 281 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: is just such a powerful quote in itself. Yeah, and 282 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: it should be ruminated over more, and it should have 283 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: been thought of more. And you know, any you and 284 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: I were talking about the fact that this book is 285 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: really complicated for us to speak on, as we said 286 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: at the beginning, but it's so important that we hear it. Yeah, 287 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: And and that's something um that Cooper talks on a 288 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: lot in this book, is that there was an instance 289 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: where she was heartbroken and she felt like because she 290 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: was a black woman, had to like shove that down 291 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: and give this speech anyway, like, and she's absolutely right, 292 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: like black women are people he screaming, cry and hurt 293 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: and all these things. We're not really as a idea 294 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: allowing the space for that, right if they do take 295 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: that space, people felt threatened, right, people like does a 296 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: threat which is the whole absurdity in itself and racism 297 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: in itself. But there's so much. But yes, we didn't 298 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: want to talk about one of the other things, which 299 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: was respectability politics. And because of these tropes in a 300 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: multitude of other things, we see things like respectability politics 301 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: which can get a certain distance, but they're only good 302 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: for so far. To discuss, she gives the example of 303 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: the Obama's and um she talked specifically about how Michelle 304 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: Obama was police and how she showed her rage at 305 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: Trump's inauguration, which to me, she just didn't smile, I 306 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 1: know about like the bun and of course the comparison 307 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: later now with Biden, which of course this was before 308 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: this time, and how President Obama played into this in 309 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: ways that were harmful. Yeah, yeah, I mean the whole politics. 310 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: We've talked about that before. What a tight rope it is, 311 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 1: especially the more identities you add in there that are marginalized, 312 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: like the starper that syper Up gets and the close 313 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: to their watch to a public figure. But I think 314 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: it's hilarious because obviously a this was written before the 315 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: new administration, Biden, but be like comparing it to now, 316 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, in comparison to who really was 317 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: the angry person? Who was the bitter bitter Betty visit 318 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: in this situation and as we saw, they didn't concede, 319 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: they just left abruptly. Yeah, which everybody was kind of 320 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: glad for, I think in the end, But we want 321 00:18:49,000 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: to talk about who was truly being respectable? Yeah, absolutely that. 322 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: We did have some more beames to go over, but 323 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: first we have one more quick break for a word 324 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: from a sponsor, ham her back, Thank you sponsor. Set 325 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: Throughout this book, Cooper uses writings from black feminists and 326 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: authors before her, like Bell Hooks, Augel Lord, I'd be Wells. 327 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: But like we talked about before on the show and 328 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: even earlier in this episode, her road to feminism was 329 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,239 Speaker 1: one of learning and unlearning and self growth, letting go 330 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: of some internalized toxic beliefs and working through her values 331 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: and beliefs and how feminism, how it makes sense to her, 332 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: how how she can fit all of that together in 333 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 1: a way that works for her. And along this journey 334 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: she encountered a lot of obstacles in terms of not 335 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: just other men and wanting acceptance, but also in other 336 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: him in And I do think that's something we can 337 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: relate to because even if you know feminism isn't about 338 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: man hating, as they always say, the perception a lot 339 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: of the times from other people is that it is right. 340 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: And if you're in college and you're looking to to 341 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: date and you're nervous about, like you know, maybe you're 342 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: on your own for the first time, then maybe you're 343 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: you're hesitant to tell people you're feminist because you don't 344 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: necessarily want that attached to you. And for people to 345 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: think that you hate men, which again, even you might 346 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: know that's not true, that's not what right. I think 347 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: it's quite funny because she she does talk about that. 348 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 1: That's one of the first things she got called on. 349 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: I was saying she's not a feminist, but she's not 350 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: the only one I think a lot of especially when 351 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: you're maybe the South. I don't know if it's the 352 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: South that puts it on you that you feel like 353 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: you have to be anti feminist because feminism means hating men. 354 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: Feminism means the ultraliberal, and ultraliberal is a bad word 355 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: as we see a radical you know, as we've heard 356 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: repeatedly during these campaigns, as being a bad thing in 357 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: the South, and that's what people have been using as 358 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: a platform without really understanding what the hell they're talking about. 359 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:15,959 Speaker 1: Because I'm still trying to figure out what the hell 360 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: they're talking about. This radical that are radical liberal. You're like, 361 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: what does that mean? I don't I don't understand. It's 362 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: radical liberal media they want healthcare for everyone. Because I'm confused, 363 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: but whatever, But that's that whole same trope of what 364 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: the word feminism seems to play on is the fear 365 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: of being the other, especially in the South, especially in 366 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: a very mail forward dominated community, and that I think 367 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: that's I say that because again, I grew up not 368 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: want to be that way. I grew up saying ridiculous 369 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: things because I wanted to fit in with my white family, 370 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: with my white community, and this is the best way 371 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: I could do it, very heteronormative ideas. I must be normal, 372 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: this normal correct, and I know we see that growth 373 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: and change and not only ourselves, but yeah, and people 374 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: like Taylor Swift is a great example of how she 375 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: refused to say the word feminism. Saratista Parker another example. 376 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: She still refuses to say it to this day, even 377 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: though she's on a very female forward, sexual revolutionary show 378 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: supposedly way back when you know, like it's all these 379 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: things and it is it does seem like you're portraying 380 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: the men in your life to say I'm a feminist. 381 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: I know, you know it is. It's this whole thing 382 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: and and then again this whole misogyny where women are 383 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: pig as women. It is a competition to be who 384 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: is the more likable for the men. So it's a 385 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: self perpetuating cycle, right, because if you're afraid to say 386 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: that you're a feminist, the near friends are probably afraid 387 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: to say, Like people are going around thinking nobody's feminist. 388 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: Even if you are, you just don't want to say it, 389 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: you know, right, right, And that's the thing I still 390 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: remember clearly in college, I figured out feminism as in, oh, 391 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: I have the right to education and not be married. Cool, 392 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: I'm a feminist. But that that was the you know, 393 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: for thinking. And I had a college roommate who says 394 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: she wasn't feminist myself in another roommate both looked at it. 395 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: I was like, you know, if there wasn't for feminism, 396 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be here at this age, not being married right, 397 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: like you know where you are is because of feminism. 398 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: And her response was huh and then walk away. Because 399 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: the essential level of what feminism was is weaponized. Again. 400 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 1: I feel like we use that word often because it is. 401 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: It's it's being told if you're a feminist, that means 402 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: you hate men. If you if you hate men, you 403 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: are betraying the men in your life, including your dad. 404 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: Why would you do such a thing? You know, it's 405 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: the same thing. It is, it is and and Cooper 406 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: talks about her experience similar to your friend in college, Samantha, 407 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: which we'll get into in a second. But it's also 408 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: absolutely worth noting that when you talk out like black 409 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: women in feminism, there is this history of white feminism, 410 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: so there's like another layer of complication through the whole thing. Yes, 411 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: So Cooper says, we wonder why young men hate women, 412 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: and sometimes the sad truth is that their mamas and 413 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: aunts and sisters act as an arm of the patriarchy 414 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: by perioding the refrain that girls simply can't be trusted, 415 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: which I absolutely I think that gets left out of 416 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 1: the conversation a lot is we do learn from examples 417 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: before us and women in our lives, and they learn 418 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: from you know, women in their lives too, and that 419 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: stuff gets passed down. And she gives the example of 420 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: she calls mean girls with Beyonce and watching and watching 421 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: women just tear down Beyonce and and and her and 422 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: her mind that being yeah, like a mean girl almost 423 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: just like she's so successful tear down. She wasn't always 424 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: this way, Like she hasn't always been feminist or has 425 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: always been strong about black women and black rights and 426 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: all that stuff. Tearing down right, And I think there 427 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: was a whole conversation, and I loved it was when 428 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: she was with Destiny's Child and the drama that happened 429 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: within Destiny's Child and she's like it has to be 430 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: Beyonce's obviously, because she is not not about women she's 431 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: about herself, who by the way, she still has really 432 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: good close friends from the original group as well. But yeah, 433 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: and also we have a whole conversation within that is 434 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: not trusting successful black women because what did they have 435 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: to do to get there? You know? And that which 436 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: is not true, which is not it's just an absolute 437 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: stereotype or some way of tearing someone down who was 438 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: successful out of jealousy. Whole different conversation. And of course, 439 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: and if you're a black woman who stands as a 440 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: proud black woman, that's a threat, especially to white supremacy 441 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: in itself. And so that was a whole big conversation. 442 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, I did love her examples of loving Beyonce 443 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: and having conflict emotions because is she a feminist? Isn't 444 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: she a feminist? What makes it feminist? It really brought 445 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: that to a whole other level of yeah, because there 446 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: isn't back and forth of is Beyonce feminist? I mean, 447 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: to the point just recently I looked at a tweet 448 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: with Beyonce's new line with Ivy Park her love brand 449 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: about h is she a capitalist or you know? And 450 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: what thatt me? And and it's kind of this whole 451 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, wow, this is really complicated, but it's 452 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: mainly not that complicated because they just want to hate 453 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: on successful black women. End of story. Yeah, and it 454 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: gets real, real shady, real quick. I don't know I 455 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: want to say that, but we do was want to say. 456 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: On the other hand, Hooper describes the importance of friendship, 457 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: and I think it was a beautiful sentiment and I 458 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: fell her. I felt her on this one because I 459 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: was like always growing up trying to be a good 460 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: friend to the white girls. Now, of course her experience 461 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: in my experience was completely different, but it does feel 462 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: oddly familiar when she was talking about trying to fit 463 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: in in a community and and realizing you're still different. 464 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: But she does talk about the importance of friendships with women, 465 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: and particularly again she talks about the case of black 466 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: women and who gave her where she calls quote homegirl interventions, 467 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: and yeah, that's what we're talking about with being called 468 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: the feminists basically calling you out on your or pushing 469 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: you to examine potentially problematic beliefs. And I'm glad I've 470 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: definitely had those people in my life and I love it. 471 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: The importance of friends who will not only support you, 472 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: but give these interventions is front and center throughout the book, 473 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: and she talks about that a lot. She also talks 474 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: about growing out of friendships, and again, like it was 475 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: so familiar to me when she was talking about trying 476 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: to fit in, being ousted essentially from a friend group 477 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: because she wasn't good enough in their eyes, and what 478 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: that men and felt for her, and how it did 479 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: build her up in her confidence or lack of confidence, 480 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: and trying to grow into herself. So it wasn't really 481 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: definitely relatable content. Yeah, and I love this quote about 482 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 1: all of this that we're talking on. The thing I 483 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: know today, after many cycles of home girls, many more 484 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: years of girl crushes, and a life of straight sexual activity, 485 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: is that one can't truly be a feminist if you 486 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: don't really love women and loving women deeply and unapologetically 487 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: as queer as it is erotic in the way that 488 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: Augio Lord talks about eroticism. It's an opening up, a healing, 489 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: a seeing and being seen. And she went on to 490 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: expound on this in an interview for WACH Media. I'm 491 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: trying to think through queerness in a range of ways 492 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: in the book. If we think about queerness as a 493 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: resistance to the politics of normativity, whether that's whiteness as 494 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: normative or straightness as normative. Then there's something fundamentally queer 495 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: about black people making an intentional commitment to love each 496 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: other and show up for each other in the fullness 497 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: of our blackness in a system that normalizes white supremacy 498 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: and anti blackness. Also, I don't want to co opt 499 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: queerness from queer folks who are dealing daily with realities 500 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: what it means to be a queer person. What I'm 501 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: attempting to suggest is that queer folks have a lot 502 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: to teach us about how to love each other better 503 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: as black people and black women. This is a lesson 504 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: I'm trying to take from being in community with queer folks. 505 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: And then I've learned from a black faminist practice that's 506 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: been deeply shaped by the labor of black queer women. 507 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: And I really, I really loved all that. I love 508 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: the example she gave of her and her friends, women 509 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: friends sending each other sexy pictures or messages and just 510 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: getting affirmation all knows. And I know my friend groups 511 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: this is something that we've done, maybe not to the 512 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: same extent but it has been hugely uplifting, especially if 513 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: you're not in a relationship and you're just looking for 514 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: you know, I just need today, I just need someone 515 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: to tell me I'm sexy or whatever it is. I 516 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: thought it was beautiful too. I think she did a 517 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: great job. And when she talks about the openness that 518 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: they have to do is and and realizing that, Yeah, 519 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: like when I say I love you, I truly mean 520 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: I love you, and I'm gonna affirm you in in 521 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: every way that I can. And just because you're not 522 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: in a relationship, or maybe you don't want to be 523 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: in a relationship, doesn't mean you don't the same affirmations 524 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: of being beautiful or sexy. And I think that's great. 525 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: And she quotes one of feminism's the biggest failure is 526 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: failure to insist that feminism is first and foremost about truly, 527 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: deeply and unapologetically loving women. And absolutely, I think the 528 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: thing that's why I was able to early on say 529 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: that I was a feminist because I trusted women way 530 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: more than I trusted men. I've been wronged by men 531 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: too many times, and I think in that sense of 532 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,959 Speaker 1: like growing up, I've been abused in or gone through 533 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: some trauma that to me, my trust had to be 534 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: my friendships, and my friendships were based on women. And 535 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: so yeah, I absolutely agree that I will tell women 536 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: and my friends I love them faster than I will 537 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: any man ever, you know what I mean, And it 538 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: is that level because to me, that is the wholeheartedness 539 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: and those who have accepted me the most, Like as 540 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: many back stepping things that may have happened, I've had 541 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: more women that I could trust and love and know 542 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: that I could come to And that's the things that 543 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: I look at like, Yeah, this is what feminism should be, 544 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: right And I think because women we have been sort 545 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: of pitted against each other for so long and not 546 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: trusted for so long, and of course again that adds 547 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: with any marginalized identities you're adding on top of it. 548 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: It is it does feel like almost a radical revolutionary act, 549 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: just like, yeah, I'm just gonna love women. And it's 550 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: funny because recently in therapy, my therapist was talking about 551 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: intimacy and I kept going back to like people I've dated, 552 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: and she was like, you can be intimate with anybody, 553 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: you can be intimate in relationships with friends, Like it's 554 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,239 Speaker 1: just an opening and a vulnerability, and that can be 555 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: just as scary but just as rewarding. So kind of 556 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: framing it in that way, when you look at the 557 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: example she gives with her friends of being it's, yeah, 558 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: it's pretty open and intimate and trusting people with with 559 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: yourself and and you're perhaps secrets or darkest things that 560 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: you don't tell people. It is very beautiful. And I 561 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: do think, as we were saying earlier, I feel like 562 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: so much gets lost in this man hating aspect of feminism, 563 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: like either you're trying to assuage both men and women. 564 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: It's not about hating men that it does almost become 565 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: about men again, right, or leaving out women due to 566 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: racism or homophobia or other power dynamics. I think that 567 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: that has been a pitfall of feminism historically, those kinds 568 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: of things. And I think we have putting women first 569 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: and that that should be women and other are marginalized people. 570 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: And just know what's about the man hating thing? Right, 571 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: that's about men in general? Yes, but you know what, 572 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: let's talk about men a bit more because it is 573 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: another big theme of this is toxic masculinity and the patriarchy, 574 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: which is something that always comes up when we we 575 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: have these conversations. It does play and everything we're talking about. 576 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: So here's another quote. Self help gurus, pastors and poets 577 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: love to point to Black women's low self esteem is 578 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: the cause for all black girl problems. Just learn to 579 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: love yourself, you're told. But patriarchy is nothing if not 580 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: the structurally induce hatred of women. If every woman and 581 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: girl learned to love herself fiercely, the patriarchy would still 582 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: be intact. It would demand that she be killed for 583 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: having the audacity to think she was somebody. Individual blame 584 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: isn't enough to solve the problem, right. We go back 585 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: to whether it's Beyonce or even the way back when 586 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: talking about women who are confident in themselves being called 587 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: everything but confident, whether it's bit or sociopath, like any 588 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: of those things, and it becomes this whole narrative like, wait, 589 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: but I am trying to appreciate myself. But we're taught 590 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: that we must have humility, and humility means hating ourselves. 591 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: And that's yeah, that's the that's the quality you need 592 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: to be a feminine woman is to hate yourself and 593 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: to be humble and to be giving and literally saying 594 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: just kidding, we don't want you to actually care about yourself, right, 595 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: And then when you put it in a bigger format 596 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: of the intersectional issues, Oh my god. Yeah. And there's 597 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: so many conversations we could have off of this this alone. 598 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: But one of the things that this quote reminded me 599 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 1: of is also the kind of this idea that if 600 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: you work hard enough, if you hustle hard enough, you'll succeed, 601 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: which we know the system is not set up that way, right, 602 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 1: And then that oh, you won't fail if you failed. 603 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: This on you that's like, oh my god, what just 604 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: read these self help books? Yeah, work hard, It doesn't 605 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: work that way, doesn't right, Right. So we did want 606 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: to run through some quick other themes that that we're 607 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: on here, starting with religion, because Cooper does go into 608 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: growing up religious and still being religious kind of this 609 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: tension between faith and feminism, which we've talked about before, 610 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: and she is very clear that there is a space 611 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: for religion with finism, but she's also like she is 612 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: clear in the faults of religion, and that goes back 613 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: to how she was able to figure out what feminism 614 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: meant for her and how it looks for her and 615 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: being able to recognize the good and the bad for 616 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: her in religion and dismiss what isn't working, what is unhealthy, 617 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: what is toxic, and then except the things that are 618 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: helpful and supporting and all those kinds of things. Right, 619 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: I think she did a beautiful job in talking about 620 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: fear and religion, and and she talked specifically about being 621 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: taught not to be fearful, to the trust in the 622 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 1: Lord and all of these things. And it made me 623 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: think about the fact I grew up in a very 624 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: white religious home and their whole aspect is to be fearful, 625 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: constantly fearful, and that I remember that no fear teachers. 626 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: When they came out, my mother was angry. He was 627 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: angry because she was like, you should be fearful of God. 628 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: Like she made sure that I knew this and that 629 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: was not allowed in our house. But I think that's 630 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: really telling, because again I've talked about the fact that 631 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: my family is very right leaning, to the point that 632 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: it has become a problematic issue with my relationship with 633 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: them that they base their life out of fear of 634 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: losing something, the fear of power, which is kind of 635 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: the basis of what white supremacy is. It's always constantly 636 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: being told you're gonna lose power, you're gonna lose power, 637 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: you should be afraid of these marginalized groups, specifically black groups. 638 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: And I found that interesting as she was talking about 639 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: her own aspects coming from a black religious healthhold and 640 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: my own aspects coming from a white religious household, and 641 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,760 Speaker 1: how it's differing. But at the same time it makes sense. 642 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: You know, that's a whole different conversation we could talk 643 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: about in sociology and sociological idealists in the religion and 644 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: the white supremacy, which we do want to talk about eventually. 645 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: But I think it's interesting that she talked about that 646 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: because it kind of clicked on my end of my 647 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: own experiences and like, huh, that is something and that 648 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: we see that in politics, that's the driven force towards 649 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,879 Speaker 1: white communities. Be fearful that you're gonna lose something, yeah, 650 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: you know, and then the fact that the black communities 651 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: have had fear but have to fight for it, you 652 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like this this whole level of like, 653 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, we can no longer be afraid, we must fight. 654 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: It's just such an interesting perplexing complex issues like it 655 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 1: kind of she brings up very small portion of that, 656 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,240 Speaker 1: but it just had me thinking on that line, right. 657 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 1: And something else that she discusses through the book is 658 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: her experience with love and sex and and she did 659 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: put schooling first and and feeling like maybe she missed 660 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: out or her options were limited, I suppose, and I 661 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 1: thought that was she also had this whole thing of 662 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: dating while feminist. Yeah, Cooper is really open about her 663 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: thoughts and experiences with dating, law of sex, and wanting 664 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: or not wanting children. Uh. Actually this is what she 665 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: did talk about a little bit while she was speaking 666 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 1: of the vinue that I attended, and she talked about 667 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: the difficulty she had dating as a black woman as 668 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: a feminist in bacted with statistics and she's completely not 669 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: wrong and had the structural racism misogyny how all that 670 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: plays in all of this. Man, she goes into some 671 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: things that I'm like, I don't know if I could 672 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: touch this about interracial dating and what that looks like 673 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: and the connotations behind it. And we're not going to 674 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: get too deep into this because we definitely are not 675 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: the authority in any least the way it manner but 676 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: she is right on. I mean there's a lot of 677 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: like oh wow, yeah, oh wow, yeah that she talks 678 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: about this and it's really complicated and a little bit 679 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: discouraging sometimes. I think I could see that too, And 680 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: her statistics in itself is things are disappointing, you know. Yeah, oh, certainly, 681 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: certainly something as as someone who I don't date and 682 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: I don't really want to date. But I've heard my 683 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: especially in a pandemic, I've heard my friends feel like, 684 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: you know, why I want this, and I feel like 685 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of options and the I'm 686 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: limited and how frustrating and like even just hurt. They 687 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: can be over it. Yeah, I think I don't think 688 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: we've talked about that enough. I think we turn it 689 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: too often into like either you met your high school 690 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: sweetheart and you did it or I don't know, we 691 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: we turn it into women in their biological clock and 692 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: are racing against that. But there's like actual pain and 693 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: like searching behind there. Oh my god, you have to 694 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: be in a mindset to even start. Yeah, it's conversation 695 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: for another day perhaps, But yeah, I mean, I thing 696 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: we talked about when we talk about being feminist and 697 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: dating trying to check off the boxes and and and 698 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: truly having those people it seems almost impossible. And I 699 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: say those people as in the men who or the 700 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 1: partner who you hope have of mindset is yours, because 701 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: it is complicated in an honestly, twenty sixteen made it 702 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: a little more clear why those differences matter. Yeah, yeah, 703 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: And she she talks about that. She shares in the 704 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: book her experiences dating men who knew all the right 705 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: feminist things to say, but at the end of the 706 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: day weren't truly feminist. And I bet everyone listening to 707 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: this show knows someone like that, right, And how hard 708 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: that can be when you've got these hopes that you 709 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 1: really like somebody, but you have these things that like, well, 710 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: I can't compromise on this, I can't write right. So 711 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: that was a really really interesting chapter. And then as 712 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: we close this out, we did want to return to 713 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: rage because it was such a big piece of this book, 714 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: the title and the power of it, of eloquent rage, 715 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,479 Speaker 1: and specifically and the power of black women's age, because 716 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: we see black women's rage fueling Sufproject movement, civil rights, 717 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: me Too, black lives Matter. But she also talks about 718 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: the danger or destructiveness of misdirected rage, whether that is 719 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,959 Speaker 1: on yourself, because not everyone is worth your rage, which 720 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: can be a very hardless and to learn, but it 721 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: will wear you down, wear you down asking who were 722 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 1: what is the real enemy here? Are you getting angry 723 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: at the correct like source? Just asking yourself those questions. 724 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: This is another quote that I thought was really good. 725 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: I'm not interested in a feminist project that only works 726 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 1: to tear down things, because we have to build things 727 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: back to right. And while the book is focused on rage, 728 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,359 Speaker 1: and I do want to stay here. Well, a lot 729 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: of things we've talked about are kind of discouraging, as 730 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: you say, and and heavy. But she's also, as we said, 731 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: really funny, and it was it's enjoyable. It's enjoyable. Yeah, 732 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 1: there's plenty of like hope and upbeat things in there 733 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: as well. And and in this case the book it 734 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: ends on the importance of joy, not that the two 735 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: are muchily exclusive. She makes that point. It doesn't mean 736 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: like you can't be you can't have like rage and joy, 737 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: for example, taking joy at seeing what you're rage is 738 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 1: able to accomplish. It's something that gets lost a lot 739 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: when we're talking about activism and feminism and very important 740 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: and inspiring to leave us with because I know we've 741 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: talked before about burnout and just letting yourself get really 742 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 1: really disheartened and taking those moments to find the good 743 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: things to find that joy. Self care, as we often say, 744 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: that is important. One of the reasons she concentrates on 745 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: relationships with women and female relationships is because that's part 746 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: of our joy, whether it's to be angry together and 747 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: have a commonality to be angry together, they can bring 748 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: us joy. I have a thing with a friend of mine, 749 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,800 Speaker 1: oh Kristen Kristina, who used to be the old co host. 750 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: Her sister Anna and I are really close and we 751 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: used to have a session called all the Wine when 752 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,280 Speaker 1: we would drink wine and just complain about whenever happened. 753 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: And that was joyful and delightful and therapeutic for us. 754 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: But it's okay. That means you're raging on something to 755 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: find that joy in that moment. Absolutely big proponents. Yes, 756 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: so definitely check this book out if you haven't already, 757 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 1: and send us your next suggestions what should we read next? 758 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: You can email us at Stuff Media Mom Stuff at 759 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,360 Speaker 1: I heart mea dot com. You can find us on 760 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,400 Speaker 1: Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You, are on Twitter 761 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super 762 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 1: producer Christina. Thank you, Christina, and thanks to you for 763 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: listening Stuff I've Never Told You production of I Heart Radio. 764 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Hear Radio because it's I 765 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: Hear Radio, app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 766 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:45,760 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.