WEBVTT - The Bloomberg 50 Broadcast 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.160 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:08.240 Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. So welcome to a special 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:11.400 edition of Bloomberg Business Week. Carol Masser along with Jason Kelly, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:13.560 live from the Red Carpet at the Morgan Library and 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.759 Museum in Manhattan. We made our way down the world headquarters. 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.599 Rain that's the little rainy here in New York City. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.279 But it is buzzing already. This is going to be 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:26.200 quite a night. Yeah, quite a night. And what I 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.920 love about this event it's the third annual Bloomberg fifty 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:34.680 and it's a celebration of the fifty people in business, entertainment, finance, politics, technology, science. 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:36.800 And what I love about this You and I've been 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:39.640 talking about this a lot. With this issue, is that 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.839 people who stand out in measurable ways that's right. Well, 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:45.159 it's Bloomberg after all, and so there's got to be 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.920 a data point. There's one guy who has to put 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.519 all of that together, all to him every week to 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.720 put this magazine out. Joel Weber. He is our host, 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:59.240 our co host. I guess, uh this evening, h he's here. Yes, 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:04.440 he's definitely our cost Yeah, yeah, it's a team sport. 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:06.760 It's not just me, Um, there's a guy named Brett 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.440 Began who actually slaves away at this thing for weeks 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:11.600 after a week, after a week to get to a 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.440 point where we can actually have tonight and have people 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.280 that we can celebrate. So it's big ten team sport, 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:19.320 and it's even bigger than Brett because we reach out 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:23.520 throughout the newsroom to all of the journalists and analysts 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:25.600 within Bloomberg to make sure that we can have a 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.160 list that actually really represents sort of the zeitgeist of 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.039 the year. What's really cool too, is you guys start 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.480 early in the year, right from what I understand, like 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:34.160 back in the spring. Yeah, well, I mean, and we 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:36.440 try and account for the whole year, so it's really 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:38.880 a chance to recognize even things that happened in January 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.199 and February we're kind of taking into account. And so 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.440 when you sort of set this in motion in a 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:50.280 year like this, how do you pick out the themes? 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:51.920 I mean, how do you sort of break it down? 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.320 So it's a it's an evolving process, um, and it 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.559 goes up until the last minute, right, but things start 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.320 to stand out over the course of the year. Whether 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:05.720 it's a deal that especially in the oil m and A, 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:07.600 was when that really jumped out of us this year 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.280 like that, that that kind of distinguishes stuff, and then 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:11.720 you kind of like give it a little time and 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:13.440 you come back to it and say, did that thing 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:15.920 hold up or was it an anomaly or did something 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.840 else happen that got bigger than that, right, or was 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:20.880 it just like you know, we we have we have 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:22.400 a lot of people on the list. We also have 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.480 a chicken sandwich and it broke. You know, this is 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.440 a Popeye's chicken sandwich that broke the internet? Is what 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.240 what we realized. They had a three month supply run 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.360 out in a matter of days, and you know, like 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.360 something like that. It's just like even if you're like 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.160 business business is dreams this up, you have no idea 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:44.480 that it's gonna like take off quite like that, right, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.359 And so we build into the process that there's opportunities 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.720 to just embrace things that are slightly outside of our 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.840 our usual place. And I love folks like Kylie Jenner, right, 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:55.720 who are on the list for a couple of things 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:57.640 that they did a couple of things and you know 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:01.280 that's it's uh, it's a big money the self made 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.919 billionaire gym z's first building. Um, it's it's an amazing 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:08.840 accomplishment and that's why we do this and be able 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:10.440 to recognize some of these people. Right. Well, we know 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.000 it's a super busy night for you. We will see 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:18.800 you on stage, beautiful, all right, it's gonna be very exciting. 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:22.000 Jil Webber, editor of Bloomberg business Week, thank you so much. 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.320 Thank you great. I really appreciate it. It's been quite 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:25.960 a year and if you think about some of the 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.440 stories that have been out there, whether it's politics, whether 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.040 it's technology. And what I love about this list, Jason, 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.880 is it's a lot of household names. Yep, they're there. 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:35.840 But then there are folks that you might not know 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.400 their name, but you should. Whether it's m MT. You know, 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.880 I think about we're going to talk to her a 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:44.720 little bit later. But I think that has become a 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.160 big discussion when it comes to what's going on in 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.240 the economy and certainly on the campaign trail, and then 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.720 I just think about so many other issues. And as 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:55.520 a matter of fact, we have a guest who's getting 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.280 settled in. We just caught up with him a little 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.560 while ago. A couple of weeks ago. Um, but we 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.320 want to talk about the cannabis industry, which was a 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.160 big story, in no doubt about it, but there was 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.000 a lot more focused, I felt like on some of 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.040 the Canadian cannabis companies. And now we're really focusing a 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.640 lot more on the US company because our next guest 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.120 is from pure Leaf and he turned this into one 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.840 of the world's most valuable cannabis companies. It's the biggest 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.600 U S marijuana company by market value. We're talking about 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.919 two point eight billion dollars. Right, he is Boris Jordan's 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:30.000 he's here with us. Congratulations on Bloomberg fifty. It seems 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.880 like just a few weeks ago, you're with us. Uh 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:35.240 in studio. It's great to catch. This is a much 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.760 nicer I mean, our studio is nice, but this is 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.280 a lot nicer. And we generally don't serve booz but 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:42.880 you know, here we are, we do on Fridays. So 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.560 why do you think, Uh, why do you think you 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.360 made this list? You know, I was surprised. I'll be 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.160 very honest with you. I've in the past made some list. 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.080 I opened up the Russian privatization market, and Uh, I 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:56.960 was on those global leaders of tomorrow. But the last 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.680 thing I thought I'd make as a cannabis UH company, 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.560 listen a Bloomberg fifty for cannabis UM. I think what's 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.600 great about it is that it sort of reflects the 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.040 fact that people are starting to accept the fact that 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:10.800 cannabis is going to be a part of our lives. 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:12.560 In the United States, we have thirty three states that 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.640 are that that have legalized cannabis in one form or another. 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.159 More and more people are using it. And the fact 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.680 that Bloomberg has recognized that, I think it's a big 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.200 deal and it shows that it's becoming mainstream. Well Burst, 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:25.680 and I do think about you know, for a while 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:27.839 we just talked about the Canadian cannabis companies, and I 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.120 do feel like was a lot more about the US 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.320 companies and yours included, UM, what do you think is 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.040 going to be when it comes to the cannabis story. 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.320 We we're waiting for, you know, regulations to come out 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.000 from the government, you know, so I'm just curious what 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:45.000 you think will become. Did you get over impeachment um, 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.000 which I hope we will at some point in time. 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:49.919 I think it's gonna be a continuation of the US story. 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:52.160 And that's not to say anything negative about Canada, but 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:56.480 it's just a bigger market. The US companies are alterning profitable. Um, 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:57.880 you're starting to see more and more of them. I 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.480 think the numbers that are gonna be put up by 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.799 US company next year are gonna be quite big and staggering, 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.440 and I think that will get recognized not only uh, 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.760 you know, by Washington, but I think also by the 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:09.839 markets at large. And I think at a large the 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:14.040 mainstream investors have largely avoided cannabis until this to today, 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:15.839 and I think you're gonna start seeing a lot more 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:17.719 of them get involved as they see these companies start 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.120 to put up significant numbers. Well, and talk to us 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.240 about sort of the big companies getting involved, because there 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.320 have been some twists and turns, shall we say, with 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:28.920 some of the bigger US companies started dipping their toe 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.279 in some making some investments. I'm thinking of consolation, obviously, 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:37.440 how does this sort of consumer package goods market get 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:39.600 more involved in this? How important is it that they 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.200 get involved in order to grow this business in a 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.480 meaningful way. I think they're all going to get involved 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.000 with for instance, purely just this evening on on Bloomberg 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:50.360 announced that we we hired um Joe Byrne, who ran 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:55.560 uh DR Peppler Snapple. He built Voss Water. Before that, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.840 he was at uh um uh Seagram's company, so he 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.599 the real guy. These are guys that are built and 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:06.240 run very big CpG businesses, that understand brands and understand 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.480 supply chain, and you're starting to see more and more 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.400 of those people enter this market. And I think that's 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:13.400 the first sign um. And the reasons they're coming before 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:15.880 the big companies is because we're still federally legal. But 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.560 I think you're gonna get two pieces of legislation. I 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.440 think you're gonna get the Safe Banking Act, and I 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.680 think you will get the States Act. Once you get 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.640 the States Act is when you're gonna start seeing some 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.480 of the big multinationals really starting to take a hard 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.080 look at cannabis because it just fits so well with 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:32.480 every one of their other products that they sell today, 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.640 whether it be you know, beverages or food or or 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.200 at different additives. And the farmer companies are gonna be 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:41.600 the last because they're really waiting for synthetic cannabis. Once 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:43.720 you get synthetic cannabis. You'll start to see the farmer 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:45.400 companies get involved as well. So what does it mean 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:47.720 for your financial model next year? If we get those 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.000 two pieces of legislation. That sounds like it's a game 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.040 changer and that the numbers just start to take off. 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.200 Changer in terms of the amount of the cost of 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.480 capital for our company, But it's not really a game 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.200 change of the industry because the industry, I mean to 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:03.080 be honest, we can we're growing, and then we're gonna 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.440 grow from this year from over and then you can 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:08.200 work across states. Right, you don't have to build that 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:12.040 state will so you're still you still still going to 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:13.800 be siloed in the states, but you will have a 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.920 federal law that allows investors to invest in the sector, 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.520 but you'll still be siloed. And it's kind of to 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.760 be honest, like gambling right in the US, Right, So 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.640 you can't go across border, across state lines on gambling 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:27.640 in the United States. You have to be siloed in 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.080 the state that you're in. It's state regulated, but it's 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.040 not federal legal. All right, we gotta leave it there. 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.160 Poor Jordan, thank you so much for dropping by a 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:40.120 getting congratulations good time tonight, executive chairman of Curelya Holdings 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.200 of course based in Wakefield, Massachusetts, here at the Bloomberg 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.560 Fifties celebration, right, and I do think you know, we're 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:47.880 talking with Joel about sort of the big themes of 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.440 the year, and you said it, you know, twenty eight team, 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.120 we would have said cannabis huge. And by the way, 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.680 it was last year. If you remember Bruce Lynton was 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.120 on this list. He had, in auspicion said wasn't going 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.239 to bring that up with but he had an artificiows 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.720 sort of departure from his company. This is a volatile industry. 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.640 We'll see where it goes. But those two pieces of legislation, 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.920 as he mentioned, that could really change everything. Well gives 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.640 it legitimacy and in terms of kind of taking away 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:17.480 some of the questions that are out there. And I 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.600 think that spooks investors to some extent and certainly keeps 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:22.920 some of the bigger players away from getting involved because 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.000 they need they need to know what the rules are 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:26.680 with this. Well and king off of what he said 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.839 about them, you know, hiring a big name from well, 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:32.679 I don't know if you saw this this cross late 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:36.480 in the day during our radio show cure Um not 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.560 Cia Leaf Cannopy, which Bruce Linton left. They have now 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.000 hired the former CFO of Constellation to come in and 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.280 be the CEO. Well, it reminds what it is is 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:48.200 a reminder that this is about being a brand and 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.240 developing a brand, right, just like any other consumer product. 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.440 And so it takes you there. So certainly cannabis one 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:58.160 of them, and Bruce Um and boris rather recognized on 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.840 the Bloomberg fifty also this year in terms of Bloomberg fifty. 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.280 And this plays a little bit more into what we've 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:08.000 heard on the political campaign trials, right, Yeah, and we've 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.839 heard a lot about you know, what's happening when it 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:17.480 comes to the relationship between business, between politics and the 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.959 Federal Reserve. Talk a lot about fiscal policy. We also 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:25.080 talk a lot about monetary policy. We hear about it 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.800 from politicians. Yes, I think in a way that we 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.520 traditionally have not. Let's be honest. Yeah, this is turning 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.079 things upside down. And I feel like, you know, you're 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:36.719 pretty cool if you can talk about MMT modern um 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.920 monetary theory, because it's certainly something that Bernie Sanders has 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.960 talked about and you know, it really plays into and 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.360 goes against for those of us who studied economics, UM, 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.560 it really goes against this whole idea of you can't 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.200 just print money to pay for things, and yet this 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.040 theory turns it all upside down. And we have the 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.760 perfect person to talk about it joining us. And she's 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.520 recognized among the Bloomberg fifty Stephanie Kelton, economist, professor of 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.640 economics and public Policy at stony Brook University, and she's 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.080 got an upcoming book it's called The Deficit Myth, and 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.920 we want to get into it. Welcome, Welcome, We got 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.920 your mic call set more or less we do we 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.240 can hear you. So tell us a little bit about 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.480 UM this year and just so many people talking about 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:22.960 m MT. If you google it it comes up a 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.640 million times and many times over. So what do you 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.240 make of kind of the popularity of an empty I mean, there, 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:33.640 it is kind of astonishing, right that. I think in 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.160 a lot of ways, what's happening is that people are 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.199 coming to some sort of terms with the idea that 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.120 when the next downturn comes, UM policymakers are going to 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.559 be able to reach for the usual toolkit and do 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:49.319 what they've done in the past, that we're going to 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:53.720 have to start thinking maybe more creatively, more ambitiously about 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:58.600 what policymakers can do in response to a growing weakness 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.320 in the economy. And I think UM, for many people, 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.800 m MT is just increasingly viewed as that alternative that 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.920 can help us to um, you know, think about ways 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.040 to to be more ambitious when so we don't have 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.800 to love the kind of long protracted recession that we 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:21.000 had last time. And so, Stephanie, were you surprised that 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.359 this was a year where a lot of people from 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.760 Alexandro Cassio Cortez to Bernie Sanders, who Carol mentioned, you know, 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.839 they introduced it. We talked about the Overton window all 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.800 the time, right, you know that this sort of moved 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:44.120 in m m T S favor makes me windows. But 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.480 it was a moment, you know, and honestly it entered 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.240 into the political and and I dare say even at 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.880 least the mainstream business zeitgeist. To quote our colleague Tom Keene, 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.480 were you surprised, I mean yes and no. You know, 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:02.520 I mean, if you've been pushing hard to get that 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.400 breakthrough moment for a set of ideas and You've really 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.839 worked as a scholar and as an academic, and with 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.160 a number of other people as well. I mean, this 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.200 is a team effort, and you know, we put heart 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.640 and soul into this project for more than two decades now, 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.480 and so at some point you do expect it to 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.959 pay off. I guess you know. Um, but then when 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.080 you have that moment and you have politicians of the 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.880 type that you're talking about giving some oxygen to these ideas, 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.800 it really is remarkable. Tell us though, because for everyone 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.320 like a Bernie Sanders and some other individuals high profile 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.400 who are supporting him and to you know, you've had 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.200 a lot of high profile names. I know, Paul Krugman, 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.120 you've had a little bit of a battle, you know, 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.240 certainly a ward words. Um, I'm curious if you're having 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.880 more and more conversations with more folks that maybe we're 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.240 against it, that are starting to say, hey, you've got 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.520 an idea here. Yeah. I mean so for me, some 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.000 of the most fun conversations and communications I have are 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.600 those that aren't public. It's the people who reach out 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.040 to me privately. And you know, were it known who 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.240 these people are, I think the shock waves would reverberate 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.920 in a much more dramatic fashion. But it's just encouraging 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:14.520 to know that there are people who are really out 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.880 there willing to take the scholarship seriously, ask questions when 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.280 they're not sure, um, you know, do the ideas justice 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.800 and not sort of caricature them and and created an 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.880 atmosphere of fear and concern where these are really just, 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.440 I think, very sensible and sound economic principles. Remind our 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.680 remind our world. I mean, I know our audience knows, 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.120 but m M T is essentially a government in their 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.440 own currency can just print the money they need. Because 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:43.239 so I never use those words because it's okay, everybody 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.800 everybody in the journalist world does. But it's so it's 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.920 the idea is fairly simple. It's that in countries like 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:55.880 the US that issue their own currency that's not tethered 0:14:55.880 --> 0:15:00.400 to bold or convertible into anything else, that the rules 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.800 are just different for a currency issuing government as opposed 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.960 to you know, somebody in the Eurozone, Griefs or Italy 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.560 or Spain that now borrows in a currency that they 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.000 don't control, certainly different from a household or an individual 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.160 business that has to spend in a currency that it 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.520 can't issue, so it does free up some policy space. 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:23.440 And what MMT is trying to remind us is we're 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:25.600 not on a gold standard anymore, not in a fixed 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.040 exchange rate world. So let's recognize that. Let's try to 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.920 take full advantage of the policy space that's available to us. 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.480 It's not a free lunch, it's not a carte blanche. 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.400 You can go out and spend that. Yeah, you can't. 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.680 You're still supposed to make wise investments, be judicious with 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.480 the public purse. But recognize there is a difference between 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.920 the issuer of the currency and what we would say 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:48.880 are the users of currency. The government is not like 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.880 a household. But we continue to have debates and policy 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:56.080 conversations that are rooted in this old thinking of the 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.280 federal government as if it's got to play by the 0:15:58.320 --> 0:15:59.760 same set of rules that you and I have to 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:01.880 play buy And that's just not right. So I gotta 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.320 ask you before we let you go, sort of looking 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.320 ahead a bit, all the attention that's been paid to 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:10.440 you into into m MT, do you feel like there 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.480 is a well spring of sorts of new scholarship that's 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.320 coming up. Are you hearing sort of students, grad students 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.240 and others sort of coalesced around this a little bit, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.840 because often that's what it takes for an idea to 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.640 move even further into the instream. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.080 I taught at the University of Missouri in Kansas City 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.600 for seventeen years. I'm now at Stony Brook University here 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.640 on Long Island, but we had one of the largest 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:36.520 graduate programs PhD programs in the entire university. There are 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.160 universities training students, are students are now out sharing their 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.240 own economics departments. I just saw university on the East 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.440 Coast advertising for a faculty position where they say, what 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.560 we're looking for is someone who can teach MMT. So 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:55.920 they're actually hiring. Yeah, that clearly is Yeah, that's amazing. 0:16:56.040 --> 0:17:01.320 All right. Stephanie Kelton economist MMT, advocate it and honor 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:03.600 here at the Bloomberg Fruit and are upcoming both the 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:05.879 deficit myth modern monetary theory and the Birth of the 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.840 People's Economy is gonna be released, I think. Jude, alright, 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:17.399 thank you so much. You are listening to Bloomberg Business. 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:19.679 We Carl Master along with Jason Kelly. We'relive at the 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.560 Morgan Library and Museum, uh here in New York City, 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.800 and we are celebrating um some of the fifty names, 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:28.600 and we are going to be followed by a dinner 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.080 where we will honor and talk about more than but 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:32.720 we're going to interview a few more. What I love 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.240 about Stephanie Kelton is I think we're in this environment 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.960 and I think it's very telling on a day where 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.880 we talked a lot about Paul Boker, former head of 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.120 the Federal Reserve and someone who did some really brave 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.239 things when inflation was out of control, and I do 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.120 think we're in this interesting environment, low rate environment. Everyone's 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:51.879 trying to make sense of it, and then maybe we 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.440 need to have some new theories and maybe think about 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:58.080 things a little bit differently. And so I think, um, 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.280 it's fascinating to be able to have some time, get 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.080 some time with her, because I do think we need 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.239 to introduce some new theories to figure out, you know, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.520 kind of how do we maybe you know, get some 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.399 more growth or how you know, how can we do 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.160 some things within the government um responsibly. As she said, 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:17.679 it's not just runaway spending, but maybe we need some 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.000 new theories in order to do some things. I also, 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.239 I mean getting past the economics part of it. I 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.479 love the idea of someone sort of toiling away on 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.680 something for two decades that they deeply believe in. Uh. 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:33.160 You know, she obviously came up through the economic system, 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.119 the university system, and now she's she's having a moment. 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:39.840 But what was clear from that conversation is that moment 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.000 is going to continue because now there's this whole category 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:44.840 of economist who are being trained around this. Well you 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:46.840 think about it, right, there's going out around the around 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.080 the country or around the world in terms of her students. 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.199 Or want to shift gears a little bit because our 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.520 next guest from the Bloomberg fifty Red Carpet is bringing 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:57.320 banking services to customers across Africa. We're so delighted to 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:59.919 have with us James more Warrany. He is a CEO 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.399 of Equity Group Holdings UM Bank Kenya and so delighted 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.000 to have you here. Welcome and congratulations, thank you for 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.199 having me here. So thirty five years in and I 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.680 know I was watching a bunch of videos and kind 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.000 of prepping. We both were, And I mean it wasn't 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.479 easy when you guys began, right, I mean you were 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.080 losing money. It was not easy. You've come a long way. 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.600 Tell us a little bit. It's about about kind of 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.280 that process. Yeah, the first ten years were very difficult. 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:32.640 We couldn't break even, so we became technically insolvent by 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.679 the seventh year. Not good. Yeah, Now there's a tough track, right, 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:39.480 very tough track record where the lost things we had 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.879 accumulated were thirty times the capital we started with. But 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:49.320 essentially we developed a business model that was appropriate for 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.439 the individual and we became a bank for the small 0:19:53.720 --> 0:20:00.919 micro media mental crisis and essentially the models knitted with uh, 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.720 the entrepreneurs so well that uh now we are the 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.600 largest bank in Nairobi Stock Exchange in terms of market 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.040 cups and the largest bank in Eastern and Central Africa 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:17.400