1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. So welcome to a special 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: edition of Bloomberg Business Week. Carol Masser along with Jason Kelly, 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: live from the Red Carpet at the Morgan Library and 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: Museum in Manhattan. We made our way down the world headquarters. 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: Rain that's the little rainy here in New York City. 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: But it is buzzing already. This is going to be 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: quite a night. Yeah, quite a night. And what I 9 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: love about this event it's the third annual Bloomberg fifty 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: and it's a celebration of the fifty people in business, entertainment, finance, politics, technology, science. 11 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: And what I love about this You and I've been 12 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: talking about this a lot. With this issue, is that 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: people who stand out in measurable ways that's right. Well, 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: it's Bloomberg after all, and so there's got to be 15 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: a data point. There's one guy who has to put 16 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: all of that together, all to him every week to 17 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: put this magazine out. Joel Weber. He is our host, 18 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: our co host. I guess, uh this evening, h he's here. Yes, 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: he's definitely our cost Yeah, yeah, it's a team sport. 20 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: It's not just me, Um, there's a guy named Brett 21 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: Began who actually slaves away at this thing for weeks 22 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: after a week, after a week to get to a 23 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: point where we can actually have tonight and have people 24 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: that we can celebrate. So it's big ten team sport, 25 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: and it's even bigger than Brett because we reach out 26 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: throughout the newsroom to all of the journalists and analysts 27 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: within Bloomberg to make sure that we can have a 28 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: list that actually really represents sort of the zeitgeist of 29 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: the year. What's really cool too, is you guys start 30 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: early in the year, right from what I understand, like 31 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: back in the spring. Yeah, well, I mean, and we 32 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: try and account for the whole year, so it's really 33 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: a chance to recognize even things that happened in January 34 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: and February we're kind of taking into account. And so 35 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: when you sort of set this in motion in a 36 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: year like this, how do you pick out the themes? 37 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean, how do you sort of break it down? 38 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: So it's a it's an evolving process, um, and it 39 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 1: goes up until the last minute, right, but things start 40 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: to stand out over the course of the year. Whether 41 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: it's a deal that especially in the oil m and A, 42 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: was when that really jumped out of us this year 43 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: like that, that that kind of distinguishes stuff, and then 44 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: you kind of like give it a little time and 45 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: you come back to it and say, did that thing 46 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: hold up or was it an anomaly or did something 47 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: else happen that got bigger than that, right, or was 48 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: it just like you know, we we have we have 49 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people on the list. We also have 50 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: a chicken sandwich and it broke. You know, this is 51 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: a Popeye's chicken sandwich that broke the internet? Is what 52 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: what we realized. They had a three month supply run 53 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: out in a matter of days, and you know, like 54 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: something like that. It's just like even if you're like 55 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: business business is dreams this up, you have no idea 56 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: that it's gonna like take off quite like that, right, 57 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: And so we build into the process that there's opportunities 58 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: to just embrace things that are slightly outside of our 59 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: our usual place. And I love folks like Kylie Jenner, right, 60 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: who are on the list for a couple of things 61 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: that they did a couple of things and you know 62 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: that's it's uh, it's a big money the self made 63 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: billionaire gym z's first building. Um, it's it's an amazing 64 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: accomplishment and that's why we do this and be able 65 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: to recognize some of these people. Right. Well, we know 66 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: it's a super busy night for you. We will see 67 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: you on stage, beautiful, all right, it's gonna be very exciting. 68 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: Jil Webber, editor of Bloomberg business Week, thank you so much. 69 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: Thank you great. I really appreciate it. It's been quite 70 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: a year and if you think about some of the 71 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: stories that have been out there, whether it's politics, whether 72 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: it's technology. And what I love about this list, Jason, 73 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: is it's a lot of household names. Yep, they're there. 74 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: But then there are folks that you might not know 75 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: their name, but you should. Whether it's m MT. You know, 76 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: I think about we're going to talk to her a 77 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: little bit later. But I think that has become a 78 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: big discussion when it comes to what's going on in 79 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: the economy and certainly on the campaign trail, and then 80 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: I just think about so many other issues. And as 81 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, we have a guest who's getting 82 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: settled in. We just caught up with him a little 83 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: while ago. A couple of weeks ago. Um, but we 84 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: want to talk about the cannabis industry, which was a 85 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: big story, in no doubt about it, but there was 86 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: a lot more focused, I felt like on some of 87 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: the Canadian cannabis companies. And now we're really focusing a 88 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: lot more on the US company because our next guest 89 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: is from pure Leaf and he turned this into one 90 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: of the world's most valuable cannabis companies. It's the biggest 91 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: U S marijuana company by market value. We're talking about 92 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: two point eight billion dollars. Right, he is Boris Jordan's 93 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: he's here with us. Congratulations on Bloomberg fifty. It seems 94 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: like just a few weeks ago, you're with us. Uh 95 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: in studio. It's great to catch. This is a much 96 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: nicer I mean, our studio is nice, but this is 97 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: a lot nicer. And we generally don't serve booz but 98 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: you know, here we are, we do on Fridays. So 99 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: why do you think, Uh, why do you think you 100 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: made this list? You know, I was surprised. I'll be 101 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: very honest with you. I've in the past made some list. 102 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: I opened up the Russian privatization market, and Uh, I 103 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: was on those global leaders of tomorrow. But the last 104 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: thing I thought I'd make as a cannabis UH company, 105 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: listen a Bloomberg fifty for cannabis UM. I think what's 106 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: great about it is that it sort of reflects the 107 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: fact that people are starting to accept the fact that 108 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: cannabis is going to be a part of our lives. 109 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: In the United States, we have thirty three states that 110 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: are that that have legalized cannabis in one form or another. 111 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: More and more people are using it. And the fact 112 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: that Bloomberg has recognized that, I think it's a big 113 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: deal and it shows that it's becoming mainstream. Well Burst, 114 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: and I do think about you know, for a while 115 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: we just talked about the Canadian cannabis companies, and I 116 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: do feel like was a lot more about the US 117 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: companies and yours included, UM, what do you think is 118 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: going to be when it comes to the cannabis story. 119 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: We we're waiting for, you know, regulations to come out 120 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: from the government, you know, so I'm just curious what 121 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: you think will become. Did you get over impeachment um, 122 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: which I hope we will at some point in time. 123 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be a continuation of the US story. 124 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: And that's not to say anything negative about Canada, but 125 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: it's just a bigger market. The US companies are alterning profitable. Um, 126 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: you're starting to see more and more of them. I 127 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: think the numbers that are gonna be put up by 128 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 1: US company next year are gonna be quite big and staggering, 129 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: and I think that will get recognized not only uh, 130 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: you know, by Washington, but I think also by the 131 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: markets at large. And I think at a large the 132 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: mainstream investors have largely avoided cannabis until this to today, 133 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: and I think you're gonna start seeing a lot more 134 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: of them get involved as they see these companies start 135 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: to put up significant numbers. Well, and talk to us 136 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: about sort of the big companies getting involved, because there 137 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: have been some twists and turns, shall we say, with 138 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: some of the bigger US companies started dipping their toe 139 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: in some making some investments. I'm thinking of consolation, obviously, 140 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: how does this sort of consumer package goods market get 141 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: more involved in this? How important is it that they 142 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: get involved in order to grow this business in a 143 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: meaningful way. I think they're all going to get involved 144 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: with for instance, purely just this evening on on Bloomberg 145 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: announced that we we hired um Joe Byrne, who ran 146 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: uh DR Peppler Snapple. He built Voss Water. Before that, 147 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: he was at uh um uh Seagram's company, so he 148 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: the real guy. These are guys that are built and 149 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: run very big CpG businesses, that understand brands and understand 150 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: supply chain, and you're starting to see more and more 151 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: of those people enter this market. And I think that's 152 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: the first sign um. And the reasons they're coming before 153 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: the big companies is because we're still federally legal. But 154 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: I think you're gonna get two pieces of legislation. I 155 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: think you're gonna get the Safe Banking Act, and I 156 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: think you will get the States Act. Once you get 157 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: the States Act is when you're gonna start seeing some 158 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: of the big multinationals really starting to take a hard 159 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: look at cannabis because it just fits so well with 160 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: every one of their other products that they sell today, 161 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: whether it be you know, beverages or food or or 162 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: at different additives. And the farmer companies are gonna be 163 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: the last because they're really waiting for synthetic cannabis. Once 164 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: you get synthetic cannabis. You'll start to see the farmer 165 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: companies get involved as well. So what does it mean 166 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: for your financial model next year? If we get those 167 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: two pieces of legislation. That sounds like it's a game 168 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: changer and that the numbers just start to take off. 169 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: Changer in terms of the amount of the cost of 170 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: capital for our company, But it's not really a game 171 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: change of the industry because the industry, I mean to 172 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: be honest, we can we're growing, and then we're gonna 173 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: grow from this year from over and then you can 174 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: work across states. Right, you don't have to build that 175 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: state will so you're still you still still going to 176 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: be siloed in the states, but you will have a 177 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: federal law that allows investors to invest in the sector, 178 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: but you'll still be siloed. And it's kind of to 179 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: be honest, like gambling right in the US, Right, So 180 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: you can't go across border, across state lines on gambling 181 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: in the United States. You have to be siloed in 182 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: the state that you're in. It's state regulated, but it's 183 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: not federal legal. All right, we gotta leave it there. 184 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: Poor Jordan, thank you so much for dropping by a 185 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: getting congratulations good time tonight, executive chairman of Curelya Holdings 186 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: of course based in Wakefield, Massachusetts, here at the Bloomberg 187 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: Fifties celebration, right, and I do think you know, we're 188 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: talking with Joel about sort of the big themes of 189 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: the year, and you said it, you know, twenty eight team, 190 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: we would have said cannabis huge. And by the way, 191 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: it was last year. If you remember Bruce Lynton was 192 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: on this list. He had, in auspicion said wasn't going 193 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,239 Speaker 1: to bring that up with but he had an artificiows 194 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: sort of departure from his company. This is a volatile industry. 195 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: We'll see where it goes. But those two pieces of legislation, 196 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: as he mentioned, that could really change everything. Well gives 197 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: it legitimacy and in terms of kind of taking away 198 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: some of the questions that are out there. And I 199 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: think that spooks investors to some extent and certainly keeps 200 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: some of the bigger players away from getting involved because 201 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: they need they need to know what the rules are 202 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: with this. Well and king off of what he said 203 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: about them, you know, hiring a big name from well, 204 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw this this cross late 205 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: in the day during our radio show cure Um not 206 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: Cia Leaf Cannopy, which Bruce Linton left. They have now 207 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: hired the former CFO of Constellation to come in and 208 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: be the CEO. Well, it reminds what it is is 209 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: a reminder that this is about being a brand and 210 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: developing a brand, right, just like any other consumer product. 211 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: And so it takes you there. So certainly cannabis one 212 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: of them, and Bruce Um and boris rather recognized on 213 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg fifty also this year in terms of Bloomberg fifty. 214 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: And this plays a little bit more into what we've 215 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: heard on the political campaign trials, right, Yeah, and we've 216 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: heard a lot about you know, what's happening when it 217 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: comes to the relationship between business, between politics and the 218 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: Federal Reserve. Talk a lot about fiscal policy. We also 219 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: talk a lot about monetary policy. We hear about it 220 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: from politicians. Yes, I think in a way that we 221 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: traditionally have not. Let's be honest. Yeah, this is turning 222 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: things upside down. And I feel like, you know, you're 223 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: pretty cool if you can talk about MMT modern um 224 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: monetary theory, because it's certainly something that Bernie Sanders has 225 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: talked about and you know, it really plays into and 226 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: goes against for those of us who studied economics, UM, 227 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: it really goes against this whole idea of you can't 228 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: just print money to pay for things, and yet this 229 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: theory turns it all upside down. And we have the 230 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: perfect person to talk about it joining us. And she's 231 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: recognized among the Bloomberg fifty Stephanie Kelton, economist, professor of 232 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: economics and public Policy at stony Brook University, and she's 233 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: got an upcoming book it's called The Deficit Myth, and 234 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: we want to get into it. Welcome, Welcome, We got 235 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: your mic call set more or less we do we 236 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: can hear you. So tell us a little bit about 237 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: UM this year and just so many people talking about 238 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: m MT. If you google it it comes up a 239 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: million times and many times over. So what do you 240 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: make of kind of the popularity of an empty I mean, there, 241 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: it is kind of astonishing, right that. I think in 242 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, what's happening is that people are 243 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: coming to some sort of terms with the idea that 244 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: when the next downturn comes, UM policymakers are going to 245 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: be able to reach for the usual toolkit and do 246 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: what they've done in the past, that we're going to 247 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: have to start thinking maybe more creatively, more ambitiously about 248 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: what policymakers can do in response to a growing weakness 249 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: in the economy. And I think UM, for many people, 250 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: m MT is just increasingly viewed as that alternative that 251 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: can help us to um, you know, think about ways 252 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: to to be more ambitious when so we don't have 253 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: to love the kind of long protracted recession that we 254 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: had last time. And so, Stephanie, were you surprised that 255 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,359 Speaker 1: this was a year where a lot of people from 256 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: Alexandro Cassio Cortez to Bernie Sanders, who Carol mentioned, you know, 257 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: they introduced it. We talked about the Overton window all 258 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: the time, right, you know that this sort of moved 259 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: in m m T S favor makes me windows. But 260 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: it was a moment, you know, and honestly it entered 261 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: into the political and and I dare say even at 262 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: least the mainstream business zeitgeist. To quote our colleague Tom Keene, 263 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: were you surprised, I mean yes and no. You know, 264 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if you've been pushing hard to get that 265 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: breakthrough moment for a set of ideas and You've really 266 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 1: worked as a scholar and as an academic, and with 267 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: a number of other people as well. I mean, this 268 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: is a team effort, and you know, we put heart 269 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: and soul into this project for more than two decades now, 270 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: and so at some point you do expect it to 271 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: pay off. I guess you know. Um, but then when 272 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: you have that moment and you have politicians of the 273 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: type that you're talking about giving some oxygen to these ideas, 274 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: it really is remarkable. Tell us though, because for everyone 275 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: like a Bernie Sanders and some other individuals high profile 276 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: who are supporting him and to you know, you've had 277 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: a lot of high profile names. I know, Paul Krugman, 278 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: you've had a little bit of a battle, you know, 279 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: certainly a ward words. Um, I'm curious if you're having 280 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: more and more conversations with more folks that maybe we're 281 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: against it, that are starting to say, hey, you've got 282 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: an idea here. Yeah. I mean so for me, some 283 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: of the most fun conversations and communications I have are 284 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: those that aren't public. It's the people who reach out 285 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: to me privately. And you know, were it known who 286 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: these people are, I think the shock waves would reverberate 287 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: in a much more dramatic fashion. But it's just encouraging 288 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: to know that there are people who are really out 289 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: there willing to take the scholarship seriously, ask questions when 290 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: they're not sure, um, you know, do the ideas justice 291 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: and not sort of caricature them and and created an 292 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: atmosphere of fear and concern where these are really just, 293 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: I think, very sensible and sound economic principles. Remind our 294 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: remind our world. I mean, I know our audience knows, 295 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: but m M T is essentially a government in their 296 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: own currency can just print the money they need. Because 297 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,239 Speaker 1: so I never use those words because it's okay, everybody 298 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: everybody in the journalist world does. But it's so it's 299 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: the idea is fairly simple. It's that in countries like 300 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: the US that issue their own currency that's not tethered 301 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: to bold or convertible into anything else, that the rules 302 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: are just different for a currency issuing government as opposed 303 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: to you know, somebody in the Eurozone, Griefs or Italy 304 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: or Spain that now borrows in a currency that they 305 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: don't control, certainly different from a household or an individual 306 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: business that has to spend in a currency that it 307 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: can't issue, so it does free up some policy space. 308 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: And what MMT is trying to remind us is we're 309 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: not on a gold standard anymore, not in a fixed 310 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: exchange rate world. So let's recognize that. Let's try to 311 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: take full advantage of the policy space that's available to us. 312 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: It's not a free lunch, it's not a carte blanche. 313 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: You can go out and spend that. Yeah, you can't. 314 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: You're still supposed to make wise investments, be judicious with 315 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: the public purse. But recognize there is a difference between 316 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: the issuer of the currency and what we would say 317 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: are the users of currency. The government is not like 318 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: a household. But we continue to have debates and policy 319 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: conversations that are rooted in this old thinking of the 320 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: federal government as if it's got to play by the 321 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: same set of rules that you and I have to 322 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: play buy And that's just not right. So I gotta 323 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: ask you before we let you go, sort of looking 324 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: ahead a bit, all the attention that's been paid to 325 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: you into into m MT, do you feel like there 326 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: is a well spring of sorts of new scholarship that's 327 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: coming up. Are you hearing sort of students, grad students 328 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: and others sort of coalesced around this a little bit, 329 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: because often that's what it takes for an idea to 330 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: move even further into the instream. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean 331 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: I taught at the University of Missouri in Kansas City 332 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: for seventeen years. I'm now at Stony Brook University here 333 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: on Long Island, but we had one of the largest 334 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: graduate programs PhD programs in the entire university. There are 335 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: universities training students, are students are now out sharing their 336 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: own economics departments. I just saw university on the East 337 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: Coast advertising for a faculty position where they say, what 338 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: we're looking for is someone who can teach MMT. So 339 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: they're actually hiring. Yeah, that clearly is Yeah, that's amazing. 340 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: All right. Stephanie Kelton economist MMT, advocate it and honor 341 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: here at the Bloomberg Fruit and are upcoming both the 342 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: deficit myth modern monetary theory and the Birth of the 343 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: People's Economy is gonna be released, I think. Jude, alright, 344 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: thank you so much. You are listening to Bloomberg Business. 345 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: We Carl Master along with Jason Kelly. We'relive at the 346 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: Morgan Library and Museum, uh here in New York City, 347 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: and we are celebrating um some of the fifty names, 348 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: and we are going to be followed by a dinner 349 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: where we will honor and talk about more than but 350 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: we're going to interview a few more. What I love 351 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: about Stephanie Kelton is I think we're in this environment 352 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: and I think it's very telling on a day where 353 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: we talked a lot about Paul Boker, former head of 354 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve and someone who did some really brave 355 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,239 Speaker 1: things when inflation was out of control, and I do 356 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: think we're in this interesting environment, low rate environment. Everyone's 357 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: trying to make sense of it, and then maybe we 358 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: need to have some new theories and maybe think about 359 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: things a little bit differently. And so I think, um, 360 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: it's fascinating to be able to have some time, get 361 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: some time with her, because I do think we need 362 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 1: to introduce some new theories to figure out, you know, 363 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: kind of how do we maybe you know, get some 364 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: more growth or how you know, how can we do 365 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: some things within the government um responsibly. As she said, 366 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: it's not just runaway spending, but maybe we need some 367 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: new theories in order to do some things. I also, 368 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,239 Speaker 1: I mean getting past the economics part of it. I 369 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,479 Speaker 1: love the idea of someone sort of toiling away on 370 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: something for two decades that they deeply believe in. Uh. 371 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: You know, she obviously came up through the economic system, 372 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: the university system, and now she's she's having a moment. 373 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: But what was clear from that conversation is that moment 374 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: is going to continue because now there's this whole category 375 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: of economist who are being trained around this. Well you 376 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: think about it, right, there's going out around the around 377 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: the country or around the world in terms of her students. 378 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: Or want to shift gears a little bit because our 379 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: next guest from the Bloomberg fifty Red Carpet is bringing 380 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: banking services to customers across Africa. We're so delighted to 381 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: have with us James more Warrany. He is a CEO 382 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: of Equity Group Holdings UM Bank Kenya and so delighted 383 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: to have you here. Welcome and congratulations, thank you for 384 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: having me here. So thirty five years in and I 385 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: know I was watching a bunch of videos and kind 386 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: of prepping. We both were, And I mean it wasn't 387 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,479 Speaker 1: easy when you guys began, right, I mean you were 388 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: losing money. It was not easy. You've come a long way. 389 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit. It's about about kind of 390 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: that process. Yeah, the first ten years were very difficult. 391 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: We couldn't break even, so we became technically insolvent by 392 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: the seventh year. Not good. Yeah, Now there's a tough track, right, 393 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: very tough track record where the lost things we had 394 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: accumulated were thirty times the capital we started with. But 395 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: essentially we developed a business model that was appropriate for 396 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: the individual and we became a bank for the small 397 00:19:53,720 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: micro media mental crisis and essentially the models knitted with uh, 398 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: the entrepreneurs so well that uh now we are the 399 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: largest bank in Nairobi Stock Exchange in terms of market 400 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: cups and the largest bank in Eastern and Central Africa 401 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: and with the sixteen medium customers nine countries. And so 402 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: when you think about your customer, help us understand who 403 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: they are. You know, you describe their size, but are 404 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: they in all types of businesses? And as you look 405 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: down down the list, what are the fastest growing areas 406 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: that you see? Yeah, we are very inclusive bank because 407 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: people graduate up. They may start very micro, they becomes more, 408 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: they become medium, They become a larger practice. The same 409 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: with the individuals. They start occasionally as peace and farmers, 410 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 1: they become a growth businesses and the individual as well 411 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: being continuous to grow. But the biggest growing segment UH 412 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: is the medium enterprises. That's where you find the scale 413 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: EYES is becoming really significant and it's because they populated 414 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: the value change of the coporates that operating the continent 415 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: and consequently they now become the face of African Africans 416 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: and entreprenewership. I have to say, James, what I love 417 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: about this. And I remember talking to Bahamma Units about 418 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: micro loans and what you could do with a small 419 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: amount of money, the impact you could have on a family, 420 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: and I think about what you're doing multiplied many times over. 421 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: That allows people to have a financial identity, create a 422 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: means for themselves and their family, and then even kind 423 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: of work up the value chain. It's pretty remarkable and 424 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: it impacts the country that they're in as well. That's 425 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: true because the African entreprenewership capitalism in Africa is that 426 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: the individual level, the entrepreneur whatever, and that individual supports 427 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: the immediate family and sometimes they extended the family. So 428 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: when they started this more enterprise. They provide their jobs 429 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: for the entire family, They care of the education of 430 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: the entire family, and essentially they become a catalyst. So 431 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: small loans have very significant impact because of the individual capitalism. 432 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: Africa is not compiy tized, so we don't have ute 433 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: copy it. It is a small businesses that aggregate to 434 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: the African economist, so speaking the African economies. Excuse me, 435 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: let's talk about Kenya because an ambitious plan underway. You're 436 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: an architect of it, Keny Kenya's Vision thirty I believe 437 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: it's tell us what underneath that because the ambition is huge. 438 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: Vision twenty staty is a long time strategic plan to 439 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: tran to see Kenya transformed from a least developed country 440 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: to a midle income economy. I've been the chairman Vision 441 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: twenty Faty now for the last farteen years, and we 442 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: have seen the economy move from a ten billion uest 443 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: dollar size economy to a hundred billion dollars growing ten 444 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: times within a period of thirteen years. In the process, 445 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: we have created numerous jobs, thousands of jobs for young 446 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: people because the country is very young, with a miniage 447 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: of eighteen years, so the need for jobs is normals. 448 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: But more importantly we have seen the law the private 449 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: sector have prayed, and that is where equity have prayed 450 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: a very significant role in providing credit, uh financial or support. 451 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: But more importantly, the foundation provides capacity building. We do 452 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: financially trust, we do enterpreneurship training and so once you 453 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: combine credits and competence and capacity, we see the economy 454 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: being moved. And in the process Kenya has have moved 455 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: now to possession five in the continent from position sixteen. 456 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: Within that video, what was interesting because you started this 457 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: to think abound two thousand eight, which I think was 458 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: an interesting time obviously around the world, a tough time, 459 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: but it's fascinating kind of some of the things that 460 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: you've done, like a fiber after cable project, but you 461 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: also had to deal with governance and rulable. I mean 462 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: you to get some basic things in place to be 463 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: able to grow this right and and and and kind 464 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: of grow the businesses. Yes, we broke them, uh the 465 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: espilation of the people into three. The first one was governance, 466 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: get it light in the way we have governed, and 467 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: get transpalency, get accountability, and get a structure of governance 468 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: that is reliable and predictable. The second one was look 469 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: at the economy and enable the private sector investing the 470 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: fiber optic, investing lords, power lad with air ports and 471 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: pots so that the cost of doing business is reduced 472 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: and private sector is facilitator. We called all that an 473 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: album men of the private sector, so massive investment in UH. 474 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: And then the last one was invested in the socio 475 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: aspects of the people. Focus on education. We started with 476 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: free primary education that now it's free UH day school 477 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: education and on all the way to university and we 478 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: now have a hundred percent transition from primary to secondary education. 479 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: So you keep children through school for at least eighteen years. 480 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: And when you think about sort of the future, part 481 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: of it is creating these financial hubs like Dubai is 482 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: a great example of something that really came to the 483 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: form pretty quickly that really galvanizes people. It's a transportation hub, 484 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 1: it's an economic hub, it's a financial hub. Do you 485 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: have that same vision? True? UH. The aspilation of the 486 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: vision was to make a financial sector. Kenya is not 487 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: endowed with the nationality sources like me knows, so we 488 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: focused on people and said what would people be good 489 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: debt and we focused on services, so you find Kenya 490 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: is the hub for banking, insurance companies, telecommunication, health and education. 491 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: So essentially that's what we did. Then said the financial 492 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: services would be an enabora in the whole legion. It 493 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: would be uh. We needed to grow the banks to 494 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: the size so that they can support their aspidations and 495 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: the dreams of the people, because people have very strong dreams, 496 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: but most of these dreams never come true because there 497 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: is no enablement from a financial perspective, and Equity has 498 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: played a very significant loan and supported that with the foundation. 499 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: So when it comes to like for reastance to agriculture, 500 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: a lot of farmers are supported to become a grow businesses, 501 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: so you stop growing for the family, you grow for 502 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: the market place. But debt practices needs to change, so 503 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: that's where the bank then support and essentially then you 504 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: have the entire legion and you're able them to finance 505 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: infrastructure projects. We're able to cross board the businesses and 506 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: so it becomes an integrated East African community and the 507 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: way da Messa legion. That was the essence of making 508 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: the rob a financial center and Equity has a reader 509 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: pret the very big rock. It's now a two billion 510 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: market caub bank within that setup. It's pretty remarkable. Great 511 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: to have you here with us. Thank you so much 512 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: for congratulations and being part of the Bloomberg Fair. Thank 513 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: You're very impressive the work you're doing. James, here is 514 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: the CEO of Equity Group Holdings joining us here at 515 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: the Morgan Library. It's really fascinating. This is what I 516 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: love about this list is you really get a window open. 517 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: And this is the Bloomberg Bosines Week is known for, 518 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: is taking us around the globe looking at activities and 519 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: work that's being done um to help different folks um 520 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: in different countries. And it's really fast and I really 521 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: like some of the super relatives that he helped us 522 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: understand there in terms of growth, because obviously you're in 523 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: a situation where things have happened very fast. The scale 524 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: is tremendous and the ambition as well well. And I 525 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: I've always loved this whole idea. Muhammed units of the 526 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: Grimming Bank created the micro loans and was doing it 527 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: around the world, giving someone like fifty bucks or twenty 528 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: bucks to start a business. It was often women and 529 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: as a result, they often paid it back pretty quickly, 530 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: and they were able to make a living to support 531 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: their family and just better their family. Uh. And so 532 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: it's really fascinating to see more of this work going on. 533 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: So um, people are mully nailing around us good. You know, 534 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: people sort of roll in. They see our TV set, 535 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: our TV radio set. We've got a beautiful room sort 536 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,239 Speaker 1: of just behind where our guests are scredited. Another one 537 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: of the Bloomberg fifty. She's there on the screen. She 538 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: didn't take a Yeah, in fact, you're thinking about somewhere 539 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,719 Speaker 1: right now. But there will be cocktails, there'll be an afterparty, 540 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, it's Monday in New York City. 541 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't we do this exactly a rady Monday, so 542 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: one money Monday, just tuck in, uh, you know, and 543 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: maybe if you're tucking in or you on your way home, 544 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: I know this is what I'm gonna do when I 545 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: finally get in a car later, I'm definitely turning on 546 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: a podcast. I was just gonna say, you are our 547 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: podcast guy. You're always like, did you listen to this? 548 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: Did you listen to this? And we've got the next 549 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: the perfect guest to talk about we do I mean 550 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: and It's really exciting because this is an area of 551 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: the market. I actually listened to an interview with these 552 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: two guys on a Arrival network, another podcast, um, and 553 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: it told the whole story. Let's bring in Alex Bloomberg. 554 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: Of course, no relation to Bloomberg Business Week. We just 555 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: want to put that out. Matt Lieber, co founders Gimblet Media. 556 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: It's a company that they sold to Spotify for I million. 557 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: Did I get the number right? Uh, that's what's been reported. 558 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: You could make some news here. Um. Anyway, it was 559 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: the biggest deal in podcast in the podcast industry. So 560 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: nice to have you both here. Congratulations on being named 561 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: Bloomberg fifty. Because we I mean, Jason does love podcast. 562 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: We all do. UM tell us a little bit about 563 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: the podcast world, and I mean I feel like everybody 564 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: does a podcast. How do you like distinguish yourself? But 565 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,959 Speaker 1: you saw it before anybody, I mean you really did 566 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: for most people. Well, I think Matt and I were 567 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: we started the company, uh and and uh we were 568 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: both sort of coming at it from separate perspectives. I 569 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: was I was working in podcasting already, I worked at 570 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: this American life and I had uh started planning money 571 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: with my co founder at Adam Davidson, and so I 572 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: was seeing sort of like this excitement building around this 573 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: new on demand way that like audio is getting delivered 574 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: to people. And I just saw the excitement building and 575 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: I was like, we just somebody should make more of these. 576 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: And then Matt had was like in the on the 577 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: other side of the sort of like uh of the 578 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: of the of the scene, looking and seeing the same 579 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Peasure that Our insight was that if 580 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: you look over the whole history of media, every time 581 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: a new medium comes about, new, a new media company 582 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: gets built. And so a hundred years ago, the new 583 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: medium was radio, and that's when CBS got built, and 584 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: that's when NBC got built, and we felt on demand 585 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: digital audio podcasts were a new medium and we wanted 586 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: to build a defining brand for this new medium. And 587 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: that was gimma. But isn't it fascinating because it is 588 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: like radio in terms of, you know, just listening to 589 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: a great story being told. And I just think the 590 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: simple part, it's just such a simple thing, but it's great. 591 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: But it harkens back to radio, harkens even further back 592 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: to that. I mean, I think, what if you think 593 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: about like what we're doing in podcasts. A lot of 594 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: times what we're doing is the is is one of 595 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: the oldest forms of media in human existence is telling 596 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: stories to one another. And we've been telling stories to 597 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: one another before there was any other media available. Like 598 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: many of the oldest stories in human history were oral 599 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: stories before they were ever down they were they were 600 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: telling them before human languages, even written language was invented. 601 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: And so it's very deep and very primal. And uh, 602 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: and I think that was one of the issues when 603 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: we were sort of like first starting this company ever 604 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: was like, but it's just talking, right, and we're like, no, no, no. 605 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: But it's also on the backs of this new of 606 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: of new technology and and all these new tools that 607 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: we bring to it. And so where are we sort 608 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: of in in the evolution here? Because you guys, as 609 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: we said, we're early, a lot of people have sort 610 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: of piled in. It feels like, I mean, we have 611 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: a podcast, everybody has, like you know, everybody standing around 612 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: it is probably has a podcast. Like where does it 613 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: go next? We think we're just at the very beginning. 614 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: And the term that um, I think you you've been 615 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: using is that we're at the dawn of the second 616 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: Golden Age of audio. The first golden age of audio 617 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: was in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties. It was 618 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: when broadcast news was born. It was when you saw 619 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: fiction like The Shadow with Orson Welles, Probable out and now. 620 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: And you know, audio hasn't evolved that much in the 621 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: last sixty seventy years until now. And now what you 622 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: have are a couple of big technology changes. So you 623 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: have smartphones in every pocket, you have connected cars coming online. 624 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: A lot of listening happens in the cars, and you've 625 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: got smart home devices that people are listening at home 626 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: and even talking to their dashboard when they're in their car. 627 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: And so all these things have combined for this whole 628 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: new um listening kinds of listening experiences to come out 629 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: and new sorts of storytelling. So there's a whole generation 630 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: of creators being born now to work for this medium. 631 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: It's a more intimate It's like radio, but it's more intimate. Um. 632 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: There's something about putting on your headphones or something and 633 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: just kind of when you listen to a podcast, it 634 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: feels like you're listening to your best friend hang out 635 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: with you tell you a story that's just made for you. 636 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: But as Jay said, well, as you mentioned, everybody's got 637 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: a podcast, what is it that makes a podcast stand out? Well? 638 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 1: Are there's so much content out there? I mean, if 639 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: we told you that, then you would just start your own. 640 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: Is just a great story. I mean you're asking the 641 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: question that is at the heart of every content company, 642 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: which is like what people want? Right, and that, and 643 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: and and and and the The scary truth is that, 644 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: like that is an essential mystery. We can do our best, 645 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: and we have been very successful so far, and we 646 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: will continue to be successful, like eventually, you know, getting 647 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: that right a bunch of times, but it's like it's 648 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: it's really hard. I think the thing that like is 649 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 1: true about audio though, is that it prizes two things 650 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: above everything else. Like there's a very simple way that 651 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: it is just it thrives on narrative. And so if 652 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: you can just tell a simple story, like just for example, 653 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: if I say to you, I got up this morning, 654 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: I looked out the window and then I stopped. You're like, well, wait, 655 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: that's all I did was say two sentences to you, 656 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, you want to listen to 657 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,919 Speaker 1: the third one. There's something that there's something that deep 658 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: in in terms of like hearing a story, worry that people, 659 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: it really grips you. So that's I think that is 660 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: one of the key things that audio can deliver. And 661 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,439 Speaker 1: if you get that right over time, that's what people 662 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: want to listen to. All Right, So let's talk a 663 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: little bit about the business side of all of this, 664 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: because storytelling is great. We all love telling stories, we 665 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: like listening to them, we like telling them. We certainly 666 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 1: like hearing ourselves talk because we do it for hours 667 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: a day every day. But you guys figured out a 668 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 1: way to make a real business out of this, something 669 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: that Spotify was able to and willing to pay you 670 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: a lot of money for. Clearly they see a business here. 671 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: How does distribution ultimately work in a profitable way? Not? Um, Yeah, 672 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: that's a good that's a good question. We um we 673 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: did build a business here, and so Gimlet is um 674 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: it was mainly an advertising business. It turns out podcasting, 675 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: this intimacy that happens in audio makes it great for storytelling. 676 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: It also makes it great for advertising, and we're reaching 677 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: a very unique consumer. They tend to be younger and 678 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: more affluent, more educated, they're very hard to reach. Our 679 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: for them is the unreachables, and we're getting them with 680 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: this very um, direct, personal kind of ad product that 681 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: really worked for us, and so so we built a 682 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,439 Speaker 1: business around that UM And then about a year ago 683 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: we we started having more serious conversations with Spotify, and 684 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: in Spotify we saw a really a global giant music 685 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: company that you know today reaches over a quarter billion 686 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: listeners around the world every month UM. And in that 687 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: we saw distribution, We saw the opportunity to take gimblet 688 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: and reach a global audience. We thought that together we 689 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: could solve what is one of the fundamental problems for 690 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: the medium and also for the business, which is discovery. 691 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: So if you ask um, if you ask people what 692 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: podcasts they listened to and how they found out, they're 693 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: still basically finding out because their friend told them. They 694 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: may have read it in media. But the kind of 695 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: discovery that Spotify has unlocked to tell you about the 696 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: right song, the right album, the right playlist, we thought 697 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: that could work for a podcast too, and in doing 698 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: so get to many many more people. Does it continue 699 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: to be an advertising model that gets it to profitability? 700 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: Can you say it again? Is it is it still 701 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: an advertising model that gets podcast to profitability? Um? To 702 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: talk fast ironically, I'm not getting your audio in kind 703 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: of reading your lives right now. Um, well done. Yes, 704 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: today's podcasts are mainly an advertising business. Does it continue 705 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: to be that way? I think there's gonna be I 706 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,959 Speaker 1: think there's gonna be other all kinds of other forms 707 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: of monetization. And Spotify is primarily a subscription business. The 708 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: vast majority of Spotify's revenue comes in the form of 709 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: paying subscribers. And um, we think we're gonna unlock new 710 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: monetization models for for podcasts that will realize the true 711 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: value of the media. All right, So I have to 712 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: ask you, knowing your story, knowing that you both worked 713 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: in public radio. Public radio, people who you know must 714 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: be like they're happy ish for you, right, I mean 715 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: that happy they like slave away like here they are, 716 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: They're like and like you guys go and create this 717 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: like sugar not. I mean that's amazing. Yeah, I mean 718 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: I think so. I think I think it was like 719 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: a pretty big, a pretty big shock in the industry 720 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: when the sale happened. I think just because like you know, 721 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: it was like it made real this thing that up 722 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: until that point had not had just been sort of theoretical, 723 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: and so anytime, anytime, even if people were I think, 724 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: you know, we know lots of people in the industry 725 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: and many of my closest friends are in public radio. 726 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,760 Speaker 1: Uh and and I'm still very very tight with everybody, 727 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: and so everybody knew what was happening. They were excited, 728 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 1: they were rooting for us, yeah, saying mostly uh, but 729 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, it's a big shock when that when 730 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: that thing happens, and it's like and you're like, wow, 731 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: that like Alex thing, why didn't you like cut me 732 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: in a little bit? They're just the thing that I 733 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: think it was. Um, I think it was like what 734 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: was gratifying I think for all of us in there 735 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: is that it really we were slaving a way of 736 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: doing this thing that we saw value it, Like we 737 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: believed in this, like the product that we're making, and 738 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: what the sale did wasn't legitimized that value that we 739 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: saw in it for everybody. And I think that's a 740 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: great thing for the entire excute. I mean, it was 741 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 1: a I mean, I think when we look back on 742 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,240 Speaker 1: in one of the reasons you're on the Bloomberg fifties. 743 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: It was a seminal moment, you know, in a lot 744 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: of ways of saying, because I think a lot of 745 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: people who had dabbled in this were like, yeah, you know, 746 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: I sold an ad to whoever, and like it's barely 747 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: covering my costs. Like this is something that that really 748 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,720 Speaker 1: legitimized it in a really big way. So what podcasts 749 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: and for you guys is just blowing up even more. 750 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: Like it's just like, I think what we're gonna see 751 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: is we're gonna see lots and lots of new forms, 752 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 1: lots and lots of new formats, lots of new people 753 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:48,399 Speaker 1: coming into into podcasting that haven't been here before. Um more, bigger, better, 754 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: more creative, more exciting stuff, more stuff that we haven't imagined. 755 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: Do the election kind of make it an interesting year 756 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 1: in terms of content, Yeah, I mean you guys think 757 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: about that. Well, yeah, I mean we're still tellers and 758 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: this is the story. It's kind of exciting. Yeah, you know, 759 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: it's super exciting, and and and the way and how 760 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 1: how you cover that, you know, in all the different 761 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 1: ways that we're thinking about covering it, We're excited. Yeah, 762 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: doesn't want to give away to my secret exactly. Like 763 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: all right, Alex Bloomberg and Matt Leeber, thank you so much. 764 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: Congratulations on Bloomberg fifty, Congratulations on the deal suddenly watch 765 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: this space, thank you congratulations. Alright. So podcast, yeah, certain 766 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: big thing, and I think it's so interesting to see 767 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: that story and like Alex was talking about, like it 768 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: legitimized in so many ways this business. And you do 769 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: think about these seminal moments in media, and that certainly 770 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: was one. But I guess what I think is interesting. 771 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: And you're listening to, of course, Bloomberg Business Week, um 772 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: a special edition. We're live from the Bloomberg fifty at 773 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: the Morgan Library Museum. I'm Carol Master along with Jason 774 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. But I think what's also interesting 775 00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: about it, and I guess what I was trying to 776 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: get to is, you write, everybody's got a podcast, but 777 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: there's something about the work that they've done that really 778 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: stands out, that gets noticed, and that whole idea of 779 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: really great storytelling and sometimes it's got a lot of 780 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: bells and whistles and some of it very straight well, 781 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,879 Speaker 1: and one of the things we didn't get to talk about, 782 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: which I'm sure you know, is that like they there's 783 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: this whole meta element to this where they had their 784 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: own podcast called Startup that business that built there and 785 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: it was all about that in this window in UH 786 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 1: was fascinating and it was a very it was a 787 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: very real story. And you know, Alex Bloomberg worked at 788 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: This American Life, I mean, and his story is pretty amazing. 789 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: And he sort of came up through the administration, like 790 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: he was literally like the office manager for UH, for 791 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: This American Life and then became a producer and it 792 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: was so it's pretty remarkable what they built, you know, 793 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: two guys out of public radio, you know, creating something 794 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: UH that was pretty amazing. While we are here at 795 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg fifties, yes we are, and it is bumping. 796 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: People are starting to show up. I keep hearing things 797 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: dropping behind. Yeah, I figure it's you dropping things, you know. 798 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: I don't think it was this time interesting. Alright, so 799 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: listen our next guest. It might not have been our 800 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: plan initially, that is creating a supply chain technology company, 801 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 1: but after a trip to Bangkok, she started ze Lingo. 802 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: It's a direct to consumer fashion marketplace, but it went 803 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: to become a lot more to its merchants. We're talking 804 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: about on ket Bow. She is the co founder and 805 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 1: the CEO of zie Lingo. You said it right, I 806 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: said the usually how it happened. I sort of like 807 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: muddled my way through it and then girl comes in 808 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: and today anyway, great to have you with us. Congratulations 809 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg fifty. Tell us about ze Lingo. So 810 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: you know, everybody wears clothes and um, the bottle industry, 811 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: the abottle in textile industry is almost five percent of 812 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: global GDP, so it's huge, ye. But despite that, very 813 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: little digitization, very technology has really touched the entire industry, 814 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: which is which is remarkable exactly so unlike pharmaceuticals industrials, Uh, 815 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: the way your iPhone is made, unlike any of that. Uh, 816 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: there is very little traceability, UM, sustainability technology or really 817 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: any amount of transparency in the supply chain in apparel, 818 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: and that leads to all these problems that you hear 819 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: often that fashion is accused of, which are all true. 820 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,400 Speaker 1: By the way that we're filling up the landfills. There 821 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: may be little children working in factories in Vietnam, or 822 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: in Indonesia or in Bangladesh. Making clothes for you, that 823 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: you're buying here um or that the clothes are not sustainable, 824 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: people are buying too much. All of that is true, 825 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: and all of that can be solved with technology by 826 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,320 Speaker 1: creating a lot of transparency across the supply chain. So 827 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,800 Speaker 1: that's where we come in. We we provide a technology 828 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,760 Speaker 1: platform for mills, factories literally as upstream as the farmers, 829 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: to interact with the brands that want products made by 830 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: these people and make sure that it's done in a sustainable, 831 00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: transparent But that part of it, well, and I love 832 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: the transparency piece of this. They have spent so much time. 833 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: If we think about our big themes of nineteen uh, 834 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 1: you know, fashionopolist and Thomas's great book about fast fashion 835 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: and everything bad. Candidly that that's done and all the 836 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,879 Speaker 1: sort of bad will that it's engendered in a whole 837 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 1: category of the population, I have to think that lack 838 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: of transparency, though existed for a reason people didn't want. 839 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,360 Speaker 1: You do know how hard was it to sort of 840 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: crack into this. So you're exactly right. Today the fashion 841 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: supply chain has about twenty players, uh, and you only 842 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: need five of them, which means that about fourteen or 843 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: fifteen of those guys or girls are just there because 844 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 1: they're agents. Their agents, they're traders. They're not adding a 845 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: lot of value in the value chain, so there really 846 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:52,839 Speaker 1: either holding inventory. How they amazing, So that's like they're 847 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: they're twenty and there need to be five incredible. So 848 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,360 Speaker 1: about fifteen of them don't like us a lot, but 849 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,400 Speaker 1: the five that are adding value, we're adding an immense 850 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: amount of value to their business and just economics and 851 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: then making sure that they're held accountable if they're not 852 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: following the right. But to Jason's point, like how tough 853 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: was it like making your in roads and so on 854 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: and so forth, because I feel like it's such an 855 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: established supply chain or supply you know that was out there. 856 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: How tough was it to do this? Actually, once you 857 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 1: go beyond the big manufacturers and you really go into 858 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 1: the world of Asian manufacturing or South American manufacturing, or 859 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: even right here in the US, it's quite fragmented. So uh, 860 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: you know, most of fast fashion is made within a 861 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: very fragmented manufacturer base. And then once you start giving 862 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: them technology and bringing them online, it becomes much more 863 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: easy for them to find their suppliers and their buyers 864 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: and you know, transact without agents in the middle. So 865 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: it's it's maybe it's hard in the beginning to get 866 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: a critical mass in the new country or in a 867 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: new area, or in a new in you know, subcategory 868 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: like Denim's or or something, but once you do it, 869 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: there's so much of a network fact that it spreads 870 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: quite fast because businesses see the value very quickly. I 871 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: wonder about the trade war, specifically the US China trade war, 872 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,400 Speaker 1: and what that has done for your business. So what's 873 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 1: interesting is that I think there has been definitely a 874 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,840 Speaker 1: lot of volatility, or at least the fear of what 875 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: might happen in the minds of brands the world over, 876 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: and many of whom that sourced a majority of their 877 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 1: products from China did they wanted to versify their portfolio 878 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,960 Speaker 1: a lot. So they want us to uh, you know. 879 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 1: They they're not saying no China, They're saying, hey, can 880 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,840 Speaker 1: you de risk my business right by helping me understand 881 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: how I should source them from where and making that 882 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 1: transparent along the way. We're hearing that from a lot 883 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: of the studios we talk about that they want to 884 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: be having kind of manufacturing in the markets that they sell. 885 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,720 Speaker 1: They want to, as you said, de leverage that risk exactly, 886 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,920 Speaker 1: some optionality. Absolutely. So if you build your business where 887 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: are you now, fresh infusion of capital, you're growing like crazy. 888 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: Look like, I think twenty twenty is going to be 889 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 1: super exciting for us. We recently launched in the United States, 890 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 1: we started working with brands over here where now just 891 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: recently started working with manufacturers in the U s as well. Um, 892 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: so it's it's looking like is going to be very, 893 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: very busy because we do have a business in eight 894 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: countries in Asia as well, and UH. While I spend 895 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: most of my time between Singapore in New York, now 896 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: we have an office in l A, uh and we 897 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 1: have lots of customers there. So it looks like it's 898 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,360 Speaker 1: going to be a crazy exciting What I was just 899 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: gonna say, it is interesting sort of this idea of 900 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: an American manufacturing l A does seem to be a 901 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 1: little bit of the center of that. And yet even 902 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,880 Speaker 1: the American manufacturing is not immune to some of the 903 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: issues that we've run into overseas exactly. So in fact, 904 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,360 Speaker 1: it's a myth that those problems don't exist in the 905 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 1: US as well. Um, maybe maybe the practices are better, 906 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 1: but they're not exactly optimized. We can use a lot 907 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: more technology here as well. We can use a lot 908 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: more transparency, digitization, uh you know, QC and line efficiency 909 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,319 Speaker 1: tools can be automated. So there's a lot that can 910 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: be done. And it was a bit of a surprise 911 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,800 Speaker 1: to me personally when I came in and saw that 912 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 1: there was just there was just so much to be done, 913 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: even domestically here in the US. But now it seems 914 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 1: like developed. I have to ask you, because I love 915 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 1: talking to folks like you, because I feel like you're 916 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,759 Speaker 1: traveling the world, You're seeing smaller business, midsized businesses, all 917 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: kinds of businesses. What's the global economy look like? I think, 918 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, despite despite every fear that people have in 919 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: their minds right now about where the economies are going, 920 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: where the economy is going, UM, I think there's a 921 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,360 Speaker 1: lot of opportunity in the adversities that we're seeing as well. So, 922 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,840 Speaker 1: of course this is a very colored view from my 923 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,960 Speaker 1: viewpoint where you know, UM, on the one hand, we're 924 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: saying we've hit peak apparel and really people should be 925 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,400 Speaker 1: consuming less and consuming better. All of that seems like 926 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: such a huge opportunity to us, uh, because consumers is 927 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,920 Speaker 1: starting to ask questions and whold brands and businesses responsible conversations, 928 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: which is exactly where we come in and say to 929 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:10,960 Speaker 1: the brand that listen, you don't know how to do this, 930 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: that's okay because you know we're gonna help you. We're 931 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 1: gonna help you, and you can be transparent, you can 932 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,720 Speaker 1: be sustainable and maybe you don't have to sell fifty 933 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,640 Speaker 1: items maybe yourself then and the economics can still be 934 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,759 Speaker 1: good for you. Exactly. And Katy Bows, did I say 935 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 1: it right? Yes? Good? And Katy Bows is the cup 936 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,680 Speaker 1: founder and CEO of Zilingo, joining us here at the 937 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: boom our fifty congratulation. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 938 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: Thanks good luck. That is so much. I feel like 939 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,200 Speaker 1: our world. I know it's great, I know, I mean, 940 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,440 Speaker 1: it really is the perfect summation in many ways because 941 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:42,440 Speaker 1: I have, you know, I've been reading so much of 942 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: Dana Thomas's work. She's going to the show a couple 943 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: of times, and you know, it is really affecting people's behavior. 944 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,920 Speaker 1: I know, you know, we talked about talking about it 945 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: all the time with our kids, and sort of the 946 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: decision I was thinking about it, even when I was 947 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,680 Speaker 1: thinking about like for Christmas. Is why do you know 948 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: I want Debbie Kelly to buy me for Christmas? And 949 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,560 Speaker 1: I need to you know, have a certain amount of 950 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 1: uh you know, I don't know I need to be 951 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: thinking about these things in terms of my own closet. 952 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,000 Speaker 1: But I think and Keatie made a good point that 953 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,359 Speaker 1: you know, as a manufacturer, she said, it doesn't mean 954 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,360 Speaker 1: the fashion industry has to fall apart, but maybe, you know, 955 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,000 Speaker 1: I think about how I grew up. My mother was 956 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 1: by quality and spend money on good good stuff. You 957 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:27,840 Speaker 1: don't need to have a lot, you know. And I 958 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,920 Speaker 1: think we're going back. I think we're kind of fully 959 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,360 Speaker 1: you know, coming back around to that way of thinking. 960 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,080 Speaker 1: And I definitely agree your your kids. I know my 961 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,160 Speaker 1: daughter she wants to know what the company stands for, 962 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: what's the impact on the environment, And I think we're 963 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,640 Speaker 1: going to see more of that. And if you and 964 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: I are starting to jump on board on that real 965 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,440 Speaker 1: old folks, I know, I like to think of us 966 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,320 Speaker 1: as younger you know. Yeah, I'm fine with youngest. Yeah exactly, 967 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,400 Speaker 1: let's go with that. Uh No, I mean it is 968 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 1: interesting and it's a way that certainly will enact, I 969 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: mean to me, one of the most interesting thing that 970 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,040 Speaker 1: on Keatie said was this notion that the supply chain 971 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,760 Speaker 1: has about fifteen too many people in it. That's crazy, 972 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,960 Speaker 1: but it also just shows how successful she's been because 973 00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 1: there if she's able to crack that incredible. That's what 974 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,759 Speaker 1: I was curious about, because I feel like these industries 975 00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,600 Speaker 1: are so well established and that when somebody comes in 976 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,200 Speaker 1: with a new idea, but when it makes like I 977 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,400 Speaker 1: just think about our world in terms of online in 978 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,040 Speaker 1: the Internet, whether it's being able to go, you know, 979 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,840 Speaker 1: to Amazon directly or pick your other online retailer and 980 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 1: kind of cut out a lot of things that we 981 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 1: used to do before. It really makes a difference and 982 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: it's really um certainly something that we all are taking 983 00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,919 Speaker 1: part of. So let's get to our next guest. Yes, 984 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 1: our last guest um bloomber Business Weeks names Seema Hingarani 985 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,080 Speaker 1: as one of the people to watch in We're already 986 00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,400 Speaker 1: thinking about next year. She's the founder and chair of 987 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,320 Speaker 1: the nonprofit Girls Who Invest. It's dedicated to increasing the 988 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 1: number of women in portfolio management and leadership in the 989 00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,160 Speaker 1: asset management industry. So nice to have you here with us. Yeah, 990 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: you getful to be here. You guys have been around 991 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 1: for a couple of years and you've had a lot 992 00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 1: of success and made some inroads. You are getting more 993 00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,960 Speaker 1: women out there. Yeah, it's been fantastic. In four years, 994 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,120 Speaker 1: we've put through three d and fifty college women through 995 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,879 Speaker 1: our ten week on campus summer program, where that's four 996 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,279 Speaker 1: weeks of training in the classroom and then a six 997 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,640 Speaker 1: week paid internship at one of the leading asset manager 998 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,359 Speaker 1: firms in the world. It's been incredible. And of those 999 00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 1: women are staying in the investment business there staying. Are 1000 00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 1: they moving up the ladder? They are. It's fantastic. Well, 1001 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,480 Speaker 1: and see, one of the things that I love talking 1002 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,880 Speaker 1: to you about is the fact you were on the 1003 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,799 Speaker 1: other side of the table. You were you were distributing 1004 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,320 Speaker 1: money and the ways you were picking a manager. So 1005 00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,200 Speaker 1: you saw that from the other side of the table. 1006 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: Why is it taken so long for the rest of 1007 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 1: the world to sort of get on board with this? 1008 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:55,880 Speaker 1: You know, I think it's just coming up and saying, 1009 00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,759 Speaker 1: you know, maybe we had to rethink this. We've been 1010 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,440 Speaker 1: having trouble recruiting women in particular into our business. Uh, 1011 00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 1: and yet we do the same thing over and over again. 1012 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 1: So when I talked to a lot of the large 1013 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,800 Speaker 1: investment firms around the world, I would ask them, so, 1014 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,960 Speaker 1: what do you do when you recruit And they would 1015 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:14,880 Speaker 1: say to me, Oh, we go to these four colleges 1016 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,200 Speaker 1: and we go to these investment banking programs. And I thought, well, 1017 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,880 Speaker 1: you guys, I wonder how we're having a problem with diversity. 1018 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,600 Speaker 1: Let's go bigger, broader and so find I'll do the work. 1019 00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 1: I'll go find women across the entire country, from colleges 1020 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 1: all across the US, the different majors of study, different 1021 00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 1: ethic backgrounds, different socio economic backgrounds, and I'll run a 1022 00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,640 Speaker 1: program through the summer and we'll train them up so 1023 00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:38,719 Speaker 1: that when we send them to you to these internships, 1024 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,200 Speaker 1: they hit the ground running the same. I do wonder, though, 1025 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,239 Speaker 1: if there's something different, because I feel like there's been 1026 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,520 Speaker 1: a lot of talk for years about getting more women 1027 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 1: into kind of the financial industry. Is there something that's 1028 00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 1: changed in the last couple of years. Is it finally 1029 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,640 Speaker 1: understanding that the studies and the importance of diversification that 1030 00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,400 Speaker 1: it makes a difference in terms of financial difference, that 1031 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,719 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, everybody's awakened. Yes, I think that's right. 1032 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,319 Speaker 1: I think, Um, while the research has been out there, 1033 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,560 Speaker 1: there's more research that shows and proves that more gender 1034 00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,800 Speaker 1: diverse teams get better outcomes. There's actually research now that 1035 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 1: shows that more mixed gender investment teams get better investment results, 1036 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 1: which goes to the heart of girls whom invest and 1037 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,000 Speaker 1: what we're trying to do. And I think honestly in 1038 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,000 Speaker 1: this country now with movements such as Time's Up and 1039 00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:29,000 Speaker 1: hashtagniqu too, it's certainly raised Uh. You know, more attention 1040 00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,080 Speaker 1: on this issue and more firms are paying attention. And 1041 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,160 Speaker 1: I think the final push has really come from the 1042 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,520 Speaker 1: big institutional investors. So you now have big public pension 1043 00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:42,360 Speaker 1: plans in particular saying to these investment managers, you know, 1044 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,319 Speaker 1: if you don't have more diversity on your investment team. 1045 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:47,880 Speaker 1: I've read the research too, and I believe the research. 1046 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,720 Speaker 1: I don't believe you will get long term consistent investment returns, 1047 00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,040 Speaker 1: so I might pull my money from you and put 1048 00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,239 Speaker 1: it across this shoe. I'm so glad you brought that up, 1049 00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,240 Speaker 1: because it feels like that's what has to happen. And again, 1050 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,239 Speaker 1: going back to uh, your time in New York City, 1051 00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,800 Speaker 1: like the money has to speak here, like that nothing's 1052 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,160 Speaker 1: gonna change. I mean we talked about this with the 1053 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,080 Speaker 1: s G as well, you know, and start ups. The 1054 00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:17,000 Speaker 1: source of the money essentially says no or change, nothing's 1055 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,000 Speaker 1: going to happen. So you think that that is starting 1056 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,759 Speaker 1: to happen. Yes, And it's certainly it's a combination. I mean, 1057 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,120 Speaker 1: there are amazing leaders in our industry who do get it, 1058 00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,000 Speaker 1: and I've been trying to push to get it as 1059 00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,399 Speaker 1: broad based as we needed to get. Yes, we're gonna 1060 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,239 Speaker 1: have to have the big investors out there saying this 1061 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,239 Speaker 1: isn't gonna work and standing up and actually pulling their 1062 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,520 Speaker 1: capital and putting it elsewhere. So much of what you're 1063 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,319 Speaker 1: doing is creating that pipeline, and I do think that's 1064 00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: so important. But we've got to make sure that there's 1065 00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,279 Speaker 1: the support along the way and that really speaks to 1066 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:48,880 Speaker 1: a company's culture and making sure that there's those folks 1067 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,279 Speaker 1: to do that. So how do we get to that? Yes, 1068 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:54,439 Speaker 1: is it just by getting more and more women into 1069 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,960 Speaker 1: the industry or what? Well, So that's part of it. Um. 1070 00:55:57,239 --> 00:55:58,800 Speaker 1: You know, back when I was at the City of 1071 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,640 Speaker 1: New York, and I was the c I O, and 1072 00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,360 Speaker 1: I have these conversations with the leaders of the business 1073 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,279 Speaker 1: UM and I looked down at their organizational charts and say, 1074 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,200 Speaker 1: you guys, were all the women on your investment team, right, UM. 1075 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:10,640 Speaker 1: And so what they would say to me is, well, 1076 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 1: we don't get resumes from women, so clearly a pipeline issue, 1077 00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:15,640 Speaker 1: which I agree, maybe we do have that, and let's 1078 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,000 Speaker 1: fix that. But I did say to them, then, you know, 1079 00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:19,759 Speaker 1: I'd like to have the other part of the conversation, 1080 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,440 Speaker 1: no judging, no blaming, But there's still firms out there 1081 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 1: in our business set of cultures that are not so 1082 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,840 Speaker 1: welcoming to women. So let's have that conversation to and 1083 00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:28,680 Speaker 1: tackle it from both ends. Make a lot more progress, 1084 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,759 Speaker 1: a lot faster. So what I'm really encouraged by now 1085 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:33,759 Speaker 1: is we are sitting down with the leadership of the 1086 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,759 Speaker 1: industry and and talking about their cultures and why is 1087 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,160 Speaker 1: it that once these women come in, they don't stay, 1088 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: And how do we help get these women to a 1089 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 1: position where they're getting promoted for these new opportunities, new 1090 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,160 Speaker 1: growth opportunities that right now they're not really getting quit 1091 00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,879 Speaker 1: in those positions hallelujah. Great great point to end. Thank 1092 00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,720 Speaker 1: you so much, Sima Arani. She is um the founder 1093 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,560 Speaker 1: and chair of the nonprofit Girls Who Invest. It's a 1094 00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,560 Speaker 1: great organization. Thank you so much. Thank you. Luck twenty twenty. 1095 00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:04,040 Speaker 1: Alright on with the show. That was a great sixty minute, 1096 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,439 Speaker 1: very quick sixty minutes. We are off to co host 1097 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,160 Speaker 1: the dinner. Now we're going to be on stage with 1098 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,440 Speaker 1: Joel Webber honoring all these great people. We're having a 1099 00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,040 Speaker 1: great time. I do love it. It's smart conversations, it's 1100 00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:17,800 Speaker 1: people from all walks of life. And what's really wonderful 1101 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:19,760 Speaker 1: is you can also get a little bit more of 1102 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: this on our weekend show on Bloomberg business Week Radio 1103 00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,200 Speaker 1: and Bloomberg business Week TV. We're gonna be talking about 1104 00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,640 Speaker 1: tomorrow on our daily show as well. Tune in. This 1105 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:29,480 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Business Week.