Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show, fellow conspiracy realist. This classic
Speaker 1: is rounded out our weekend of classics today, and we
Speaker 1: were going through our files and archives and we wanted
Speaker 1: to find something a little bit holiday esque. You know.
Speaker 1: We had a couple choices, the origins of Christmas that's
Speaker 1: still a banger, but we landed on this one. When
Speaker 1: a lot of people think of Christmas, the Christmas holiday,
Speaker 1: they also think of, you know, angels, we have heard
Speaker 1: wild high or excuse me, angels, we have heard on high.
Speaker 2: There we go the potato potato, my friend, No, it's true.
Speaker 2: And the idea of the voice of an angel, right,
Speaker 2: that's a concept usually referring to someone who could sing beautifully,
Speaker 2: but sometimes the voice of an angel might liquefy your
Speaker 2: insides with the sheer velocity and power. Have you guys
Speaker 2: seen the OA. That's the show about, like angels and
Speaker 2: their powers. Really interesting stuff and not at all what
Speaker 2: people maybe always associate with these beautiful winged creatures.
Speaker 3: That's one of the things in the Bible, right, if
Speaker 3: you get too close to God, or if you actually
Speaker 3: heard God, you know, or his messengers, you're probably gonna die,
Speaker 3: or it's not gonna go well for you at least.
Speaker 1: So this is some weird stuff and we are going
Speaker 1: to meet good friend of the show, John d in
Speaker 1: his exploration Yeah it's true, we text in his explorations
Speaker 1: of what is called the Enochian language.
Speaker 4: Let's jump in from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies.
Speaker 4: History is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back
Speaker 4: now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 3: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
Speaker 3: my name is Nolan.
Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined with our super
Speaker 1: producer Paul miss Control decad. Most importantly, you are you.
Speaker 1: You are here that makes this stuff they don't want
Speaker 1: you to know. Longtime listeners, you'll note that recently we
Speaker 1: have been exploring some things that are more of the
Speaker 1: modern world. Corporate cover ups, ongoing investigations into hidden burial
Speaker 1: places and things of that nature, many of which do
Speaker 1: point to genuine conspiracies, not conspiracy theories, but genuine conspiracies.
Speaker 1: Today we are delving into something a little bit different.
Speaker 1: We're delving into a realm of spirituality, a realm of
Speaker 1: allegedly magic, and the area wherein science, magic and linguistics
Speaker 1: are said to converge. Let's start with angels today. Angels,
Speaker 1: at least in the Western world, have a pretty solidified image.
Speaker 1: You know, most people in the West, if you ask
Speaker 1: them just immediately to describe what an angel looks like,
Speaker 1: unless they've done some further reading, they're going to picture
Speaker 1: a humanoid being, probably in a flowing robe or maybe nude,
Speaker 1: but androgynous and shining brightly.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of white involved, a.
Speaker 1: Pair of large feathered wings, maybe multiple pairs sprouting from
Speaker 1: the back. And sometimes the angel will also have a
Speaker 1: halo or a harp, a halo being a circle of light,
Speaker 1: sometimes depicted as a band of some shiny golden metal
Speaker 1: above their head. This of course, does not match one
Speaker 1: to one with many biblical descriptions of angels, which this
Speaker 1: is something you'll appreciate.
Speaker 3: Matt.
Speaker 1: From the X Files, there is a fantastic depiction of
Speaker 1: an angel in an episode on the Nephelom. Do you
Speaker 1: remember that one with the sickly children?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Man, it's a little hazy for me, but that
Speaker 3: sounds familiar. Are they were the sickly children the Nephilim? Yes,
Speaker 3: they were like children, or they were actually Nephelim.
Speaker 1: They were spoiler alert, Yeah, they were actually Nephelim, and
Speaker 1: they had these mysterious genetic disorders, but they were being
Speaker 1: murdered one by one by a divine agent, which was
Speaker 1: an angel. And towards the very end spoiler alert, here's
Speaker 1: your chance to turn back now three two one spoilers.
Speaker 1: Toward the end of the episode, where you actually see
Speaker 1: this creature attacking someone, its faces shift because in some
Speaker 1: biblical descriptions of angels they have multiple faces. And of
Speaker 1: course there are many many different types of angels depending
Speaker 1: on which civilization or culture you are investigating.
Speaker 2: Man, I was certain you were going to say it
Speaker 2: was the chupacabra all along.
Speaker 1: There is a chupacabra episode of X Files, and I
Speaker 1: believe in that episode three to one spoilers is a
Speaker 1: It is a fungal agent, an infection creates Chewbacabra. I
Speaker 1: believe someone That may be a different show, but there's
Speaker 1: so many X Files episodes.
Speaker 2: I have to say. Nephilim sounds like a great name
Speaker 2: for a metal band. It does not even exist, and
Speaker 2: the Sickly Children great name for an album by said
Speaker 2: metal band.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Nephlhem is a band, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, of course I believe that episode of Exiles
Speaker 3: we're referencing was called All Souls. Yes, yes, I do
Speaker 3: remember that episode.
Speaker 1: And they're not as good as the writers of X
Speaker 1: Files are at this time. They are not making this
Speaker 1: up out of whole cloth, as the Idom goes. Instead,
Speaker 1: they are cribbing from beliefs of ancient civilizations far older,
Speaker 1: by the way, than the religions of the book, far
Speaker 1: older than Islam, Judaism, or Christianity. In fact, most ancient
Speaker 1: civilizations in the world believed in this concept of angels
Speaker 1: or something very much like them, benevolent spirits representing a
Speaker 1: more powerful deities. So they were almost like minor deities.
Speaker 1: They could do little miracles. They were not as powerful
Speaker 1: as God, or not as powerful as whatever the supreme
Speaker 1: final boss deity was in a belief system, but they
Speaker 1: had a heck of a lot more agency and power
Speaker 1: than mortals. Well maybe agency is a tough word. There
Speaker 1: huge argument about angels and free will that dates back
Speaker 1: to the beginning of a lot of myths, So it's
Speaker 1: important to note here that not all angels are necessarily good.
Speaker 1: We're gonna bust an angel stereotype today we'll get to
Speaker 1: that later on in today's episode. Here's this is fascinating.
Speaker 1: So while the belief in angels or something like these
Speaker 1: benevolent intercessing spirits may be ancient, it persists in the
Speaker 1: modern day, and the statistics may surprise some of us listening.
Speaker 1: According to a twenty eleven poll that was published by CBS,
Speaker 1: seventy seven percent of adult in the United States believe
Speaker 1: angels are real. This is usually, of course, tied to religion.
Speaker 1: Eighty eight percent of people identifying as Christian and ninety
Speaker 1: five percent of people identifying as evangelical Christians, along with
Speaker 1: ninety four percent of people who attend weekly religious services
Speaker 1: of some sort, say yes they believe in angels. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna pause here because that's a that's a tricky question.
Speaker 1: That statistic is worth challenging because it all depends upon
Speaker 1: how the question is asked. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I think if you simply say, hey, do you If
Speaker 1: you're catching people right outside of a church service as
Speaker 1: they're on their way out, and they say, do you
Speaker 1: believe in angels, it's safe to say, just based on
Speaker 1: how human psychology works, they're very much They're much more
Speaker 1: likely to say yes.
Speaker 3: There's all there's social pressure in that environment. If you
Speaker 3: did it that way, that's true. Agree and say uh yes, yes,
Speaker 3: of course I do.
Speaker 2: And there so often seems to be such an all
Speaker 2: or nothing approach to that flavor of religion. Sorry, flavor
Speaker 2: is a weird choice of words, but do you know
Speaker 2: what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Like, it certainly feels like people would be encouraged to
Speaker 2: not just take the bits they like, but you have
Speaker 2: to believe in all of the lore and every part
Speaker 2: of what's in the Bible as being the.
Speaker 1: Truth, or at least say you do. Because let's not
Speaker 1: forget there's a lot of cherry picking from various religions.
Speaker 1: I mean, tale as old as time. But one of
Speaker 1: my favorite examples is this author who wrote a book
Speaker 1: called Living Biblically. Have you guys heard of this book?
Speaker 2: I have not. Oh wait, is this the one where
Speaker 2: he lives according to Leviticus the teachings of the Bible
Speaker 2: for a period of time and like wears his beard
Speaker 2: long and all of that stuff. What's the guy's name,
Speaker 2: AJJJ Jacobs. He was on Part Time Genius talking about.
Speaker 1: This The Year of Living Biblically. One man's humble quest
Speaker 1: to follow the Bible as literally as possible. He runs
Speaker 1: into a lot of stuff that was treated with great
Speaker 1: import you know, but is generally not followed in today's
Speaker 1: modern age by most people who would consider themselves practitioners
Speaker 1: of Christianity or practitioners of a faith of the Book
Speaker 1: of the Abramaic variety. He ran into. One of the
Speaker 1: ones that was the most surprising to me was when
Speaker 1: he ran into the ban against wearing two different types
Speaker 1: of fabric. Yeah, that was a big deal. You were
Speaker 1: not supposed to do that. And so often, even people
Speaker 1: who feel that they are following the letter and the
Speaker 1: spirit of the law as determined by these religious works,
Speaker 1: they'll skip some stuff, you know what I mean. They'll
Speaker 1: have some some polyester, I'll have some nylon or whatever
Speaker 1: the band fabrics are.
Speaker 3: But you gotta do what you gotta do.
Speaker 1: Man, you gotta do what you gotta do. But it
Speaker 1: may well surprise a lot of people to find that,
Speaker 1: at least according to this study, the belief in angels
Speaker 1: is so prevalent in this increasingly secular world. So we
Speaker 1: have to ask ourselves, what is it about angels that
Speaker 1: so captures human imagination? Even now in twenty nineteen, and
Speaker 1: to answer that question, we have to continue Maybe busting
Speaker 1: myths is not a good choice words here, but we
Speaker 1: have to continue clarifying what angels were historically and how
Speaker 1: they became so closely associated with that cultural icon of
Speaker 1: the flowing robes and the harp and the halo, which again,
Speaker 1: just it reminds me of how Coca Cola managed to
Speaker 1: codify the appearance of Santa Claus. Oh yeah, yeah, it's true,
Speaker 1: it's true story. But here are the fact So yay.
Speaker 1: First off, where does the name angel come from?
Speaker 2: Well, the word itself is derived from the Greek word angelos,
Speaker 2: which means messenger. Malik, the Hebrew word for angel, also
Speaker 2: means messenger. In both words quite neatly fit in with
Speaker 2: the Persian word for angel, which is angaros, similarly meaning
Speaker 2: a courier. Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: So this so we know now that all of the
Speaker 1: earlier uses of this concept meant someone who brings a message.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, it's not servant or child or you know,
Speaker 3: any of these other things that you kind of sometimes
Speaker 3: are ascribed to angels, like the children of God in
Speaker 3: some way, the offspring of God, the servants of God. No,
Speaker 3: these are messengers of God.
Speaker 1: And the various similarities between these preceding words and phrases
Speaker 1: has led some researchers to speculate that the earliest form
Speaker 1: of what we would call angel comes from a Sinian
Speaker 1: linear b script, a Caro. And this leads us to
Speaker 1: one of the most important crucial things we have to
Speaker 1: establish here if we haven't, if we haven't clearly said
Speaker 1: it already, the belief in angels or beings like them
Speaker 1: is in no way restricted to the Abramaic religions. We
Speaker 1: just tend to hear about this viewpoint, at least the
Speaker 1: four of us, Matt Nol, Paul myself, because we live
Speaker 1: in the United States. We are in and of the
Speaker 1: Western world, which means that most people are going to share,
Speaker 1: even if they do not ascribe to a specific Abramaic religion,
Speaker 1: They're going to share that cultural view of what an
Speaker 1: angel is.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: But this this is not a purely Christian, Judaic or
Speaker 1: Muslim thing. The ancient religion of Zoroastrianism has beings very
Speaker 1: very similar to angels, and Zoroastrianism is its own fascinating
Speaker 1: religion that we could do a do a different episode on.
Speaker 3: We really should because I want to dive deeper into that.
Speaker 1: It's the source of the name Mazda and cars. Actually
Speaker 1: that's one. It's it's fascinating for sure. In Abramaic religions,
Speaker 1: angels are often depicted as these benevolent celestial beings and
Speaker 1: they're intermediaries between we mud walkers and God. And this
Speaker 1: makes sense, right because as you said earlier, Nolan, they're
Speaker 1: primarily depicted as messengers, but they have other roles too.
Speaker 1: They do other stuff.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, sometimes they'll pop down to protect someone, maybe
Speaker 3: impregnate someone. I mean that was God, right, that was
Speaker 3: an angel or a dude.
Speaker 1: They also will smite people.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, definitely. The archangels will come down and take
Speaker 3: you out if you're doing the wrong thing. But see,
Speaker 3: it's so it's so interesting with some of the tales
Speaker 3: and philosophies behind intervention between heaven and Earth and all
Speaker 3: of these things. Ah, I love these topics so much.
Speaker 3: But yeah, so they'll protect you, they'll smite you, they
Speaker 3: might pregnant you, but they're what that's about it. They'll
Speaker 3: do little tasks sometimes.
Speaker 1: Right task is signed by God, so that could be
Speaker 1: anything from conveying a message to perhaps delivering someone from peril. Right,
Speaker 1: They pray to God and God sends someone. It's interesting
Speaker 1: because in some of the earlier appearances in the Old Testament,
Speaker 1: for instance, God is a hands on manager. God shows
Speaker 1: up and specifically talks to people. God will, God will
Speaker 1: directly intervene. And as the story continues, God seems to
Speaker 1: be increasingly communicating through intermediaries and the Christian faith. It's
Speaker 1: through Jesus Christ for instance, right.
Speaker 3: And the yeah, the priest of its Catholic.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, yes, spot on. And so what we
Speaker 1: see is that the concept of what an angel is
Speaker 1: and what an angel evolved along with the commonly agreed
Speaker 1: upon understanding of the nature of God. And within these
Speaker 1: Abramaic religions, angels are organized into hierarchies. This happens in
Speaker 1: other religions too, but the specifics of the hierarchy may
Speaker 1: differ across various belief systems. And that leads us to
Speaker 1: angels today. Right, So fast forward thousands of years of history.
Speaker 1: We did a very quick and dirty summary of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the angels got in the outfield. The angels when
Speaker 3: in the airwaves.
Speaker 2: We said, yeah, that was you know, Tom Delong's Angels.
Speaker 3: Yea, the angels definitely did other things.
Speaker 1: They show up in the Twilight Zone. There's a lovely,
Speaker 1: inept guardian angel attempting to earn its wings.
Speaker 2: Aw. That's a really sweet episode. That's one of the
Speaker 2: not depressing Twilight Zones.
Speaker 1: And that's one of the I think that's one of
Speaker 1: the only recurrent characters in the Twilight Zone universe other
Speaker 1: than you know, my boy Rod Serling.
Speaker 2: You know what I think of when I think of
Speaker 2: angels as far as a depiction is the depiction of
Speaker 2: angels in Dogma by Kevin Smith, where they had no genitals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, angels have been depicted as androgynous beings in time,
Speaker 1: which is strange because it doesn't really jibe with some
Speaker 1: of the ancient angel stories, which we'll get to right.
Speaker 1: For the true believers, angels in the modern day largely
Speaker 1: function as they did in the ancient past. More directly,
Speaker 1: they're bringing messages from a deity and accomplishing earthly task
Speaker 1: for that power, perhaps specifically focusing on one person. The
Speaker 1: belief in a guardian angel that looks after you as
Speaker 1: an individual and your individual soul is still very much
Speaker 1: in play in the world today, and this leads us
Speaker 1: to another question, which is a question we do not
Speaker 1: mean in an offensive way at all. Your personal beliefs
Speaker 1: are your own. It's a question that the world has
Speaker 1: still grappled with, which is this? Where is the proof?
Speaker 1: We have compelling evidence that more than half, well more
Speaker 1: than half of people in the United States claim to
Speaker 1: believe in some sort of thing like this, But at
Speaker 1: this point there has been no confirmed discovery of any
Speaker 1: physical leaving that would inarguably indicate the presence of something
Speaker 1: matching the various descriptions of an angel. There have been
Speaker 1: many alleged relics right. There are not only depictions in art,
Speaker 1: but also feathers or ectoplasm that purportedly manifested during a
Speaker 1: divine sighting, interaction and situation. For lack of a better phrase,
Speaker 1: and the overwhelming mass of what people interpret as proof
Speaker 1: of angels up to this point has unfortunately been based
Speaker 1: on anecdotes, personal belief and faith. Again, this is not
Speaker 1: to deride anybody who believes in these entities, nor is
Speaker 1: it meant to dismiss your personal views. It's it's best
Speaker 1: to call it unfortunate simply because without physical, verifiable evidence,
Speaker 1: most people who do not believe in these sorts of
Speaker 1: creatures will never see a reason to change their minds.
Speaker 1: Otherwise they'll say, oh, you have a story right where
Speaker 1: let's say you had a near death experience and you
Speaker 1: spoke with something that you perceive to be an angel
Speaker 1: that told you you still had work to do, and
Speaker 1: then you woke up in the hospital right miraculously recovering.
Speaker 1: You have been dead for anywhere from two to thirteen
Speaker 1: minutes or something like that, your heart wasn't beating. That's
Speaker 1: a very common story. As a matter of fact, I
Speaker 1: would be surprised if some of us listening today have
Speaker 1: not had a near death experience or know someone who has. However,
Speaker 1: that story is not going to convince someone who says,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe they say I'm an atheist, or maybe
Speaker 1: they say I'm a spiritual person, but I don't believe
Speaker 1: in this kind of stuff. I think it's tradition. I
Speaker 1: think it's more folklore than fact, unless there were some
Speaker 1: sort of physical evidence. Because you see, there may be
Speaker 1: one more piece of proof, something that true believers feel
Speaker 1: is all too often ignored. What if, in a way,
Speaker 1: the things people call angels have left a trace on
Speaker 1: the waking world. And what if it wasn't you know,
Speaker 1: bones hollowed out somewhere between bird bones and human bones.
Speaker 1: What if it wasn't a massive feathers secreted away in
Speaker 1: some reliquary, right, what if it wasn't ectoplasm in a
Speaker 1: hundreds year old vial.
Speaker 2: What if it was something a little more sophisticated, like
Speaker 2: a language.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, I'm in, you're in, let's learn about it. Back,
Speaker 3: let's learn about it after a quick break from ah
Speaker 3: on this, because we're gonna hear from response.
Speaker 1: And we're back. It appears that we have not been
Speaker 1: smited yet. So here's where it gets crazy. Language a
Speaker 1: language of angels. The concept of angelic script sounds pretty
Speaker 1: bizarre at first, blush right, But for centuries people have
Speaker 1: treated this concept with solemnity and seriousness. It is called
Speaker 1: Enochian script after the Biblical character Enoch. And it all originates,
Speaker 1: I mean, at least on this earthly plane with a
Speaker 1: guy named John d. D Ee. He'll be familiar to
Speaker 1: some of us and to others might just be a
Speaker 1: vague name. So who is this guy?
Speaker 2: And he was real familiar to some from our alchemy episode.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's correct, so mister John d he is welcomed
Speaker 3: into this world way back in fifteen twenty seven in London.
Speaker 3: He was an English mathematician and a natural philosopher, which
Speaker 3: at the time is I guess as close as you
Speaker 3: could get to being a scientist or what would become
Speaker 3: scientists and the predecessor. Really he was also a student
Speaker 3: of the occult, as we mentioned, as you might imagine
Speaker 3: knowing that he's involved in alchemy at some point in
Speaker 3: his life. But this dude was, I don't know how
Speaker 3: to put it.
Speaker 1: He was crazy educated, yes, oh man, at a time
Speaker 1: when very few people went to school and a literacy
Speaker 1: was rampant because you know, honestly, many people would live
Speaker 1: their lives from cradle to grave without really needing to
Speaker 1: know how to read. He entered Saint John's College, Cambridge
Speaker 1: in fifteen forty two. He got a bachelor's degree there
Speaker 1: and then a master's degree. He became a fellow of
Speaker 1: Trinity College, Cambridge when it was founded in fifteen forty six.
Speaker 1: This guy's old school and influential. Then he traveled to
Speaker 1: Europe or as they would say, British pilance to the
Speaker 1: continent and in fifteen forty seven, he made a short visit.
Speaker 1: Then he stayed from forty eight to fifteen fifty one
Speaker 1: studying under mathematician cartographers, people like Pedro Nunez, Gema Frisius,
Speaker 1: Abraham Ortelius, and Mercader of the Mercader projection.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's that one.
Speaker 1: And he also did self directed study in Paris a
Speaker 1: few other places that have been lost to history. He
Speaker 1: started turning down opportunities. The University of Paris offered him
Speaker 1: a professorship in mathematics in fifteen fifty one, and then
Speaker 1: University of Oxford offered him essentially the same thing in
Speaker 1: fifteen fifty four, but he said, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be an academic locked in some
Speaker 1: ivory tower. I have higher aims. I have political aims.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to be a part of not royalty necessarily,
Speaker 3: but I want to be a part of the PA
Speaker 3: that actually make the decisions.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm gonna parlay this big noggin of mine to
Speaker 2: some power.
Speaker 3: I could see him as both a protagonist and an
Speaker 3: antagonist in some movie where he's the extremely intelligent guy
Speaker 3: on the side, like the ja'far.
Speaker 2: Sort of the Jap figure or a resputant type figure.
Speaker 3: But yeah, but he seems to be like at least
Speaker 3: well intentioned to our knowledge.
Speaker 1: And he was a huge icon fairly early on in
Speaker 1: the pop culture at the time. The character of Prospero
Speaker 1: and the Tempest is based on him. It's like, quote
Speaker 1: unquote widely thought to be the case. It's true, it's
Speaker 1: based on him. One guy's opinion. That's just my opinion.
Speaker 1: But the evidence is there, so yeah. So he decides
Speaker 1: that he's going to join the court, He's going to
Speaker 1: work in the service of the English crown. This plan
Speaker 1: is successful. He returns to England and he becomes a
Speaker 1: member of the court because he offers to teach mathematics
Speaker 1: to courtiers and to navigators, and eventually he becomes a
Speaker 1: consultant and astrologer to Queen Mary one. And this is
Speaker 1: at this level of political power. This is similar to
Speaker 1: being both on the cabinet of the president and the astrologer,
Speaker 1: kind of like how Ronald Reagan had an astrologer. That's true,
Speaker 1: you can.
Speaker 2: Look it up.
Speaker 3: That's that's cool, it's true.
Speaker 1: This is a dream job, right, this is what he wanted.
Speaker 1: It landed him in jail in fifteen fifty five, he
Speaker 1: was charged with being a conjurer.
Speaker 3: As yeah, it happens.
Speaker 1: It let him out a little later, but it is
Speaker 1: on the books, so this is the first time he
Speaker 1: gets a criminal record.
Speaker 3: I wonder what he conjured to get that sentence, or
Speaker 3: was accused of conjuring. I didn't I didn't see that anywhere.
Speaker 3: Maybe it was just a tiny little imp that he
Speaker 3: was going to have assist him in his work. Wait,
Speaker 3: what what conyea conjuring a small monkey? You know whatever?
Speaker 3: Maybe it was just a small black cat.
Speaker 2: Does aculous like inherently have a hunch, doesn't It doesn't
Speaker 2: a homoculous have a hunch, doesn't have to It doesn't
Speaker 2: have to have What is it? What is it? What
Speaker 2: is a homunculus?
Speaker 1: Then it is a it is almost like a familiar
Speaker 1: depending on these stories, but it's it's created life, made
Speaker 1: by an alchemist, usually with some combination of a bodily
Speaker 1: fluid like blood, seamen or urine, certain types of incantations,
Speaker 1: certain types of mud and herbs.
Speaker 2: So it could it be a mud person or like
Speaker 2: a rock creature of some kind given life.
Speaker 3: It's closer to a golm ah.
Speaker 2: Guys, I'm not trying to mess with you, but I've
Speaker 2: always heard that term, and I've always associated it with
Speaker 2: like an egor or like some sort of grotesque, you know,
Speaker 2: disfigured sidekick.
Speaker 1: They are usually they are usually supposed to be. I
Speaker 1: don't know when they're depicted. They're they're typically going to
Speaker 1: be depicted as deformed in some way or imperfect, because
Speaker 1: only in this environment, only God can create a truly
Speaker 1: perfect being. Right, So I have a I have a
Speaker 1: recipe to build a homunculus, attributed to Paracelsis from his
Speaker 1: book De Naturnaerum in fifteen thirty seven. If you want
Speaker 1: to hear it, can we can?
Speaker 2: We try it right now. I don't have the materials.
Speaker 1: Well, we do, but it's not safe for work.
Speaker 2: That's fair, thank you, lady. Just let's give it out.
Speaker 1: Let's just hear it that the sperm of a man
Speaker 1: be putrefied by itself in a sealed cucurbit for forty days,
Speaker 1: and the highest degree of putrification in a horse's womb,
Speaker 1: or at least so long that it comes to life
Speaker 1: and moves itself and stirs, which is easily observed. After
Speaker 1: this time, it will look somewhat like a man, but
Speaker 1: transparent without a body. If after this it be fed
Speaker 1: wisely with the arcanum of human blood and be nursed
Speaker 1: for up to forty weeks, and be kept in the
Speaker 1: even heat of the horse's womb, a living child grows
Speaker 1: therefrom with all its members, like another child, which is
Speaker 1: born of a woman, but much smaller.
Speaker 2: I have questions, I would imagine, So does this involve
Speaker 2: having sex with a horse. No, Well, but it says
Speaker 2: the sperm has to putrefy in the horse's womb.
Speaker 1: That's right, But it doesn't say anything about the horse
Speaker 1: being alive.
Speaker 2: Oh, so does this have Does this involve having sex
Speaker 2: with a dead horse?
Speaker 1: I don't think it has to. But that's really you know,
Speaker 1: this is the wild West of alchemy at this point.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: Uh, that's really If that's how you want to attend
Speaker 1: to your homoculous then just don't tell me about it.
Speaker 2: I also heard I also heard an alternative. The horse
Speaker 2: was just an option. Right? You said you could also
Speaker 2: do it and age it well to hear putrefy, I'm
Speaker 2: hearing like ferment. Right? Is that that was how you
Speaker 2: would maybe interpret that word aging the sperm? You could
Speaker 2: do it in some kind of stone vessel.
Speaker 1: I feel like for for this guy ind the Toro
Speaker 1: rerom the the.
Speaker 2: The horse, his womb is tantamount.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, there was a YouTube series of Homunculi where
Speaker 3: this one dude was attempting to make homunculous or homunculi,
Speaker 3: and I'm pretty sure it must have been fake because
Speaker 3: of the nasty puppetry that I believe he was doing
Speaker 3: was just disgusting to look at, and the processes that
Speaker 3: he was describing and all this stuff. It was back
Speaker 3: in the day and I couldn't find it just now
Speaker 3: trying to look it up. But does anyone else recall
Speaker 3: seeing that and searching on YouTube perhaps of a guy
Speaker 3: trying to make homunculi.
Speaker 1: I've seen some stuff like it, and it was I
Speaker 1: was inclined to believe it was a bit or performance art, okay,
Speaker 1: but you know, I don't know, man. Sometimes it can
Speaker 1: be tough to tell when people are being sincere on
Speaker 1: the internet and when they're having a go, when they're
Speaker 1: having a laugh.
Speaker 3: It was oh no, I found it. It was a
Speaker 3: Russian YouTuber. I can't find the original one. It's a
Speaker 3: bunch of re uploads. He's a Russian gentleman.
Speaker 1: Well, sir, if you are listening, and we hope you
Speaker 1: are doing well, and we look forward to hearing how
Speaker 1: your experiments have worked out.
Speaker 2: And just a little plug, our buddies Joe and Robert
Speaker 2: over the stuff to blow your mind have a whole
Speaker 2: episode on how to make a homunculus. Oh no, and
Speaker 2: other horrors.
Speaker 3: Oh no, oh horrors.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a that's a little bit EDATORI yeah.
Speaker 3: But sweet, howbout this John de Guy.
Speaker 1: Yes, so he also had this interest in the cult.
Speaker 1: Clearly he's an astrologer. This is the time when natural
Speaker 1: philosophy represents both a mixture of what we would recognize
Speaker 1: as science today and what we would recognize as magic
Speaker 1: or the belief and such. He published something called the
Speaker 1: monas Hieroglyphica, the Hieroglyphic Monad in fifteen sixty four, and
Speaker 1: he made it through a secession of power. When Elizabeth
Speaker 1: the First descended to the throne in fifteen fifty eight,
Speaker 1: he became one of her scientific and medical advisors. And
Speaker 1: then he was bawling so hard that sometime during the
Speaker 1: mid fifteen sixties he built his own laboratory in Mortlake,
Speaker 1: which was an area near London. He amassed the largest
Speaker 1: private library in the country. He had over four thousand
Speaker 1: books and manuscripts. This is in the fifteen sixties. You
Speaker 1: know how long it took to make a book in
Speaker 1: the fifteen hundreds.
Speaker 3: And just to get that many books from all across
Speaker 3: the world.
Speaker 1: Probably, and he continually go's look at his scientific pursuit.
Speaker 1: So he worked extensively with cartographers, navigators, people that he
Speaker 1: considered intellectual peers, or even people that he thought were
Speaker 1: just asking interesting questions. Because he was a one man library,
Speaker 1: he would loan out these books. He would have people
Speaker 1: over to read his books and his works. He published
Speaker 1: widely across various disciplines, stuff like the Banger Hit General
Speaker 1: and rare Memorials pertaining to the Perfect Art of Navigation
Speaker 1: in fifteen seventy seven, and then he published stuff like
Speaker 1: an Aphoristic Introduction his views on natural philosophy and Astrology
Speaker 1: in fifteen fifty eight.
Speaker 3: And this is pretty cool. He actually edited the first
Speaker 3: version of Euclid's Elements into English, which was extremely helpful.
Speaker 3: Thank you for doing that to all people that came
Speaker 3: after you, John d. That was in fifteen seventy and
Speaker 3: he also had this this I mean, we kind of
Speaker 3: talked about it already, but he was so into the occult.
Speaker 3: And I think it's because it's that thing that we
Speaker 3: discuss on this show all the time, that line right
Speaker 3: between magic and science, and he's already kind of writing
Speaker 3: that line a little bit throughout his spiritual pursuits as
Speaker 3: well as the scientific pursuits. And he just thought the
Speaker 3: occult was the coolest thing. And it grew and grew
Speaker 3: and grew his interest in this and that thing that
Speaker 3: we talked about, the hieroglyphic monad that we just mentioned
Speaker 3: up top, because in that he proposed this single mathematical symbol,
Speaker 3: a magical symbol that was the key to unlocking basically everything.
Speaker 3: It was like the one solution to the unity of
Speaker 3: all things in nature. Yeah, as above so below.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. And it's strange because his interest in
Speaker 1: the occult seems to grow in step with his frustration
Speaker 1: at scientific pursuit. He felt that there was a veil
Speaker 1: between him and the true nature of reality.
Speaker 2: And it's so interesting to me how in these days
Speaker 2: that whole pursuit of scientific knowledge was very much intertwined
Speaker 2: in general, much more so than today when the world
Speaker 2: seems so separate. Man of science, man of God and
Speaker 2: all that, and a lot of the things that he
Speaker 2: that you know, we look at as being mystical sort
Speaker 2: of or a little bit more or a cult kind
Speaker 2: of got broken off. The idea of the monad and
Speaker 2: all that into philosophy. So that's it's almost like create
Speaker 2: birth the whole nother pursuit kind of. If you think,
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the same way that alchemy led to chemistry. Right,
Speaker 1: this is so far. Let's call him the daytime John D. Right,
Speaker 1: all right, brilliant. He's got an eccentric interest in the occult.
Speaker 1: But how far did it go? What does he have
Speaker 1: to do with angels? Let's get to them after a
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. So here we have John D.
Speaker 1: He's in the halls of power. He is considered a
Speaker 1: world class authority on all manner of scientific pursuits and
Speaker 1: disciplines and exercises in philosophy. He's also an unhappy dude.
Speaker 1: He's getting increasingly frustrated because he wants to build a
Speaker 1: comprehensive understanding of the natural world. And so in let's say,
Speaker 1: maybe desperation or just In the next step of his
Speaker 1: continuing quest, he began seeking supernatural or divine assistance. He
Speaker 1: attempted to speak with angels in the fifteen hundreds. By
Speaker 1: the way, you ran a severely high risk of death
Speaker 1: or dismemberment by saying that you didn't believe in angels.
Speaker 1: So anyone who doesn't count yourself lucky today. Right in
Speaker 1: fifteen eighty one, specifically, he began performing a long series
Speaker 1: of magical research projects. Earlier that year, when he was
Speaker 1: around fifty four, he had written in his journal that
Speaker 1: God had sent quote good angels to communicate directly with
Speaker 1: human beings, and so he had set himself up to
Speaker 1: make contact with these angels. But he had a problem.
Speaker 1: You see, he was not a medium. He had attempted
Speaker 1: to scry and found that he had no ability to
Speaker 1: see the other side or interact with it. Scrine is
Speaker 1: the act of a meditative or divinatory act, wherein you
Speaker 1: might stare into a crystal ball, for instance, or in
Speaker 1: some cultures an obsidian mirror or a container of water.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I always thought it was when you look at
Speaker 3: the top card of your library and you decide to
Speaker 3: put it either on the back, on the top or
Speaker 3: on the bottom of your library. That's that's just what
Speaker 3: I thought.
Speaker 1: That's a cool move in magic. Are you still playing magic?
Speaker 2: Huh?
Speaker 3: What now I'm talking about scrying.
Speaker 2: Bro Okay, real magic.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's right, Matt does scry with a deck of cards.
Speaker 3: Help let me look at this. What is that terror? Okay?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: I thought I was gonna say seven of clubs, but
Speaker 1: that is not your card. So those are the kind
Speaker 1: of results that John d was having. He just he couldn't.
Speaker 1: He couldn't divine this stuff. And he was honest enough
Speaker 1: with himself. This is very important. He was honest stuff
Speaker 1: with himself to say, well, I'm not doing it. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to delude myself. I am certain that this
Speaker 1: talent exists, but I am likewise certain that either I
Speaker 1: do not have it or I don't have a strong
Speaker 1: enough capacity to learn it. So eventually he did find
Speaker 1: a medium, or at least he thought he did. He
Speaker 1: held numerous seances in England and other European countries across
Speaker 1: the continent in the company of his hired medium, a
Speaker 1: fellow named Edward Kelly, who will get to in a moment.
Speaker 1: He is very important in this story. In his attempt
Speaker 1: to contact angels, Dee was seeking that universal language of creation.
Speaker 1: He thought it would bring about a pre apocalyptic unity
Speaker 1: of humankind. He thought that everyone, despite their differences, knowing
Speaker 1: this language would discover some sort of tangible and supernatural
Speaker 1: and philosophical truth about the nature of the universe and
Speaker 1: Earth and humanity's placed in it, and that this would
Speaker 1: promote peace, this would stop pointless wars. Someone like this
Speaker 1: somewhat utopian, right, I can.
Speaker 3: Totally see where he could get that belief. It sounds
Speaker 3: very similar to some of the stuff we've been discussing
Speaker 3: earlier with the whole Watchman Aussie Mandias, thing like if
Speaker 3: we all had that one connection for sure, for certain
Speaker 3: that makes the world bigger than us, then maybe we
Speaker 3: would all get along.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a lot of one stop shoppery in
Speaker 1: the story of human aims.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: The guy who who created Esperanto also thought that it
Speaker 1: would help end war. Yeah, because everyone would speak the
Speaker 1: same language. Yeah, Esperanto is a great language, by the way,
Speaker 1: very few people speak it, but it's a great language.
Speaker 3: I just remember like recent searching it back in the
Speaker 3: day for the old website.
Speaker 1: That's all and learning about William Shatner's Ye Wonderful film.
Speaker 3: Well, well let's see. So John D he totally thinks
Speaker 3: this is gonna happen, right, and he goes to some
Speaker 3: pretty extensive lengths to try and make it happen, to
Speaker 3: try and prove that it's true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have. He and Edward Kelly have hundreds and
Speaker 1: hundreds of sessions from fifteen eighty two until fifteen eighty seven.
Speaker 1: And during these sessions they come to believe that they
Speaker 1: are communicating regularly with actual angels, and they each have
Speaker 1: their role to play. They're like a two man band.
Speaker 1: So D will be the orator and the supplicant, so
Speaker 1: he will be asking these questions. He will ask them
Speaker 1: often by directing prayers to God and God's archangles, and
Speaker 1: then he would invoke them to manifest themselves in his
Speaker 1: scrying stone. For him, it was a black obsidian mirror.
Speaker 3: Oh that's cool.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have seen those in person,
Speaker 1: but they look really cool.
Speaker 2: It kind of gives you like a sort of a
Speaker 2: blurred kind of reflection, right, black mirror esque.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And Kelly would act as the scrier.
Speaker 1: So D is invoking these powers and asking them things,
Speaker 1: and Kelly is watching for their reactions. He would see
Speaker 1: visions projected in this mirror and he would describe them
Speaker 1: to D and then D would write them down. So
Speaker 1: cool and everything picks up steam. Around the year fifteen
Speaker 1: eighty two or fifteen eighty three.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's when John d and Edward Kelly claimed to
Speaker 2: have received communication directly from the angels, who supposedly allegedly
Speaker 2: provided them with the foundations of this language which can
Speaker 2: be used to communicate with the other side. This angelic
Speaker 2: language had its own alphabet in tax grammar, all of
Speaker 2: which they wrote down in their journals, and they dubbed
Speaker 2: this new language Enochian, which of course sprang from D's
Speaker 2: idea that the biblical patriarch Enoch, sort of a Methuselah
Speaker 2: esque figure in the Bible, was the last human to
Speaker 2: know this language.
Speaker 1: And D in common conversation, preferred to call this language
Speaker 1: angelical or the celestial speech. He also called it the
Speaker 1: first language of God Christ, and particularly he was fond
Speaker 1: of calling it Adamical like Adam Ikel, because he claimed
Speaker 1: it was the language spoken by Adam, the biblical Adam
Speaker 1: in the garden of Eden during the naming of all
Speaker 1: of God's creatures, walked the earth, swim to sea, fly.
Speaker 3: In the air. That's an interesting concept that Adam somehow
Speaker 3: spoke the same language as all of the angels.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is he gonna speak Esperanto?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it makes so much sense though, if
Speaker 3: you're coming from heaven, were all the angels already exist,
Speaker 3: and you're going to bestow life upon this creature in
Speaker 3: this new world, in this new place, you teach them
Speaker 3: the language, you know that?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because for d at this time, this
Speaker 1: is not a crazy assumption. This is barely an assumption.
Speaker 1: He had not conceived of a world in which people
Speaker 1: could exist without language, you know what I mean. Like,
Speaker 1: at this time in the fifteen hundreds, there's not going
Speaker 1: to be anyone arguing for the slow evolution of primates
Speaker 1: right from an arboreal species to two legged people walking
Speaker 1: and working out or accelerating their differences through a series
Speaker 1: of a series of organized noises.
Speaker 3: What what you're talking about?
Speaker 1: So, I mean, that's what I say is people were
Speaker 1: created according to the story that he had heard, and
Speaker 1: that people would literally be killed for disagreeing with right
Speaker 1: at this time, so of course there had to be
Speaker 1: some sort of speech. How else would one communicate.
Speaker 2: Well, it could be in the form of dance, like
Speaker 2: in the Netflix show thea Oh yeah you guys reader
Speaker 2: that that was the Angel language only I think there
Speaker 2: was an alphabet. There was some written versions of it
Speaker 2: in that show, but it was largely it was largely
Speaker 2: communicated through these amazing dance moves.
Speaker 3: I watched that so long ago, although it wasn't that long.
Speaker 3: You remember the dancing like, yes, absolutely six, It feels
Speaker 3: like a lifetime ago.
Speaker 2: I feel like we're due for another season of that.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it got Greenlab.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they just had the one season so far. I
Speaker 1: think it did get renewed, but I don't know when
Speaker 1: it's going to come out. It would be nice because
Speaker 1: maybe they could answer even one of the questions the
Speaker 1: post in season one.
Speaker 3: But at least Punisher two is out right now.
Speaker 2: Yes, not doing very well.
Speaker 3: I don't care. It's so good.
Speaker 1: I enjoy it. I feel like I get it.
Speaker 3: You know, it gets me so.
Speaker 1: Punish her aside. These beings with whom d and Kelly
Speaker 1: were in communication told them that being able to speak
Speaker 1: this language, being able to speak this ancient, pre human
Speaker 1: Anachian tongue would unlock the doors to unlimited knowledge, wisdom,
Speaker 1: and power. So let's get away from those claims. Let's
Speaker 1: look at what it actually is. You can go online
Speaker 1: as you are listening to this episode, and you can
Speaker 1: scroll through different analyzes and interpretations of versions of this alphabet.
Speaker 1: It is composed of a twenty one letter alphabet. It
Speaker 1: was written from right to left, unlike English. There are
Speaker 1: two different versions. The first is in a manuscript that
Speaker 1: d created called the First Five Books of the Mysteries.
Speaker 1: The second, which is the more widely accepted version today,
Speaker 1: comes from a book called Liber Logoth, which is allegedly
Speaker 1: based on Kelly's original drawings. It's got forty nine great
Speaker 1: lettered tables or squares that are made up of forty
Speaker 1: nine by forty nine letters, and it's said to be
Speaker 1: the first corpus of texts in this purportedly angelic language.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, Dan Kelly said the angels never
Speaker 1: translated the text in that book Dang. However, a year
Speaker 1: later there were some texts that emerged that did come
Speaker 1: with English translations, and therefore we see this as providing
Speaker 1: the basis for Anachian vocabulary. The texts have poetic verses.
Speaker 1: There are forty eight of them. D in his manuscripts
Speaker 1: calls them the angelic keys, and each key is assigned
Speaker 1: a specific function within this magical system. Dec was planning
Speaker 1: to use them to open the forty nine gates of
Speaker 1: wisdom or understanding, represented by the forty nine magic squares
Speaker 1: in this pre existing book. Oh my gosh, So that's
Speaker 1: that's longest. But surprise, it gets complicated.
Speaker 3: I mean, just what am I doing with my life
Speaker 3: if I if I can't have a goal like unlocking
Speaker 3: the nine the forty nine gates of wisdom.
Speaker 2: You just don't have magic squares.
Speaker 3: That's just so cool, isn't it. If Like, if I go,
Speaker 3: I'm going every day, I'm toiling in the basement somewhere.
Speaker 2: It's really important not to compare yourselves to others. That's
Speaker 2: what social media is causing us to do.
Speaker 1: When I was in when I was carted off to
Speaker 1: this smart kids camp in a different lifetime, one of
Speaker 1: the things that they made us swear to do. They
Speaker 1: were pretty lax on everything, but one of the things
Speaker 1: they made us do was swear not to leave a
Speaker 1: place they called the magic square, and one of the
Speaker 1: other kids that was there with me was convinced that
Speaker 1: it was evidence of some sort of devious arcane Shenanigan, whoa,
Speaker 1: I think it was just an.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it wasn't salt or anything. You're sure, well, I
Speaker 3: mean no, But seriously, unlocking the forty nine Gates of
Speaker 3: Wisdom is like the best quest that you could ever
Speaker 3: find in a video game. That sounds incredible, But he
Speaker 3: John d was trying to do that, irl.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And that leads us to a question, did
Speaker 1: he succeed? What a great question. Because of the loss
Speaker 1: of parts of his original manuscripts, there are multiple, at
Speaker 1: times conflicting interpretations regarding the meaning, validity, or authenticity of
Speaker 1: this language. Almost immediately after it was first published, the
Speaker 1: language was met with suspicion, skepticism, and not a small
Speaker 1: dose of hostility, because by the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries,
Speaker 1: this Enochian script was considered legitimate proof of communication with
Speaker 1: other worldly or supernatural beings. Not angels, however, demons.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes so much sense to me, just the
Speaker 3: idea that a human could never reach the heights of
Speaker 3: the heaven of the heavens to communicate with God. But
Speaker 3: if you are attempting communication like that, a treacherous demon
Speaker 3: from down below is going to intercede and then give
Speaker 3: you lies, essentially on purpose.
Speaker 1: The corruption yep to mislead you, right to put you
Speaker 1: in rebellion against the true powers that be.
Speaker 3: And the whole time you'd think that you're in communication
Speaker 3: with angels.
Speaker 1: One of the supporting platforms for that argument would be
Speaker 1: the idea that the devil and infernal forces typically used
Speaker 1: deception and trickery right to lead people away from the light.
Speaker 1: They also be angels or supernatural entities that create this
Speaker 1: language or communicated in it. Were said to have discredited
Speaker 1: the existence of the Holy Ghost. These kind of the
Speaker 1: idea that you shouldn't pray to or through Jesus Christ,
Speaker 1: or that the Holy Ghost doesn't exist. They directly attack
Speaker 1: the foundations of Christianity, and this caused people to conclude
Speaker 1: that the quote unquote good angels that Dean Kelly contacted
Speaker 1: were actually demons. Demons in this sense could be a
Speaker 1: reference to fallen angels, the formerly divine creatures that rebelled
Speaker 1: against God, prompting a war in heaven and then were
Speaker 1: cast down into the pit or escaped to the earth
Speaker 1: or you know, it could be a reference to the Watchers.
Speaker 1: Can also occur in the Book of Enoch, right, the
Speaker 1: angels that were supposed to keep an eye on mankind,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, be babysitters more or less,
Speaker 1: but then lost their way, slept with the daughters of
Speaker 1: men and created Nephelim.
Speaker 2: Weren't those the big rock monsters from the Darren Aronofsky
Speaker 2: Noah movie?
Speaker 1: Yes, they were. Yeah, coolest part about that movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but very out of left field.
Speaker 3: It kind of like.
Speaker 2: Threw me for a loop. Hold on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but again, we were talking about skepticism at the
Speaker 3: time and everything, and you know, I can hear some
Speaker 3: of you out there. I can hear the skepticism in
Speaker 3: my headphones front of you in the future. I can
Speaker 3: just hear it, and I'm listening to it. I can
Speaker 3: hear it because it's happening within me. Up, Yep, there
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 2: Again. It's just kind of a general cussorus.
Speaker 1: But but I'm.
Speaker 3: Not sure what it was, but it's I guess it's
Speaker 3: just you kind of have to put yourself in the
Speaker 3: in really in the mindset, and that's what we've been
Speaker 3: trying to do in building up to this, you know,
Speaker 3: where we are giving you the history and the kind
Speaker 3: of the background of this stuff. You just have to
Speaker 3: put your mind yourself in the mindset of somebody in
Speaker 3: the fifteen hundreds that truly, truly believes these things. And
Speaker 3: this is your This is the concrete upon which you're
Speaker 3: in entire world is built. So just remember that and
Speaker 3: don't scoff at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't be I mean, don't be dismissive. Look, there
Speaker 1: were people who lived, you know, five hundred or two
Speaker 1: thousand something years ago. Nowadays it's it's alarmingly easy for
Speaker 1: people to modern age to dismiss those folks and say,
Speaker 1: oh that was that was so uneducated, or how could
Speaker 1: you believe this kind of thing, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But we are benefiting from centuries and millennia of progress
Speaker 1: that none of us living had anything to do with.
Speaker 1: We are standing on the shoulders of giants, and we
Speaker 1: are ourselves making assumptions that will look cartoonish to people
Speaker 1: even twenty years from now.
Speaker 3: And we say all of that because it wasn't necessarily
Speaker 3: in any way the spiritual nature of the claims that
Speaker 3: were the things that seemed that people were most skeptical.
Speaker 1: Yes, okay. So for the people who outright said this
Speaker 1: is Flynn flammery, this is malarkey, this is balderdash, there
Speaker 1: were two primary factors that indicated to them this whole
Speaker 1: thing was a fraud. First, Edward Kelly, who mentioned Edward
Speaker 1: Kelly Alchemists, self described medium partner in this exploration with
Speaker 1: John D. He had another life before his foray into
Speaker 1: the spiritual frontier. He was a known counterfeiter, h he
Speaker 1: had been arrested for forgery, he had been pilloried, he
Speaker 1: had been to the dogs and back. So that makes him,
Speaker 1: you know, a person of questionable character. Secondly, the prophecies
Speaker 1: mentioned in the anachi and communications don't actually come true,
Speaker 1: even relatively mundane and specific ones, like there was a
Speaker 1: claim that D would one day be tried for treason.
Speaker 3: It was not.
Speaker 1: So maybe they're misreading the timeline, maybe it's a syntax
Speaker 1: error and translation.
Speaker 3: But still, if you're not getting things right and you're
Speaker 3: working with somebody that already has a reputation as a
Speaker 3: John D, you know, it really does kind of make
Speaker 3: you question why he's choosing to go this route.
Speaker 1: True, that's a good point, but we can see how
Speaker 1: there was already a contingent of people that said, all right, everyone,
Speaker 1: I know this sounds really cool, but we have to
Speaker 1: check our sources. Right, let's go of the modern day,
Speaker 1: this language, this script is still around, and now our
Speaker 1: species has vastly more sophisticated tools, techniques, and in a
Speaker 1: more profound understanding of how language in general is created, composed,
Speaker 1: and continues to evolve. We now have people who travel
Speaker 1: around the world just to find dying languages or just
Speaker 1: to find new languages that are that are blossoming across
Speaker 1: the planet. So for true believers in the modern day,
Speaker 1: this stuff is the real deal. Maybe not specifically angels.
Speaker 1: Maybe Dean Kelly didn't know exactly what they were talking to,
Speaker 1: like those old warnings against Ouiji boards. Yeah, but regardless,
Speaker 1: people who consider themselves practicing magicians will often say this
Speaker 1: is a proto language, arguably one of the first languages,
Speaker 1: and as such it has incredible mystical power. Speaking things
Speaker 1: like this, declaring them alters reality, very very very potent stuff.
Speaker 1: But for linguist and for skeptics, the structure of the
Speaker 1: language just does not match up with what we know
Speaker 1: about every other human language. One of the primary critics
Speaker 1: of this is a guy from Australia. His name is
Speaker 1: Donald Lacok, and he argues that the phonetic features of
Speaker 1: this language, Nachian or ademical script, indicate that it was
Speaker 1: a form of glossali, which is speaking in tongues, which
Speaker 1: we've still somehow not done an episode about, which.
Speaker 2: Is fun because when you say glossal, yeah, it sounds
Speaker 2: like speaking in tongues.
Speaker 3: Picture, it sounds like a Cerro's song to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's totally what they do, right, isn't that
Speaker 2: like making up a language like on the Fly is
Speaker 2: kind of.
Speaker 3: I believe at least one album had featured that heavily.
Speaker 2: I thought that was their whole thing, was they have
Speaker 2: a language that vaguely sounds Icelandic, but it's actually kind
Speaker 2: of their own thing.
Speaker 1: It's like a hogendas.
Speaker 3: Oh good lord, that would blow my mind. I thought
Speaker 3: it was just that one concept album that they did that.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe you might be right. I'm not like a
Speaker 2: super fan. I like their music, but I always heard
Speaker 2: that that was a thing. Maybe maybe I was hearing
Speaker 2: that specifically about one one record.
Speaker 1: Let us know, folks, what language is sigur Rose speaking?
Speaker 1: Save us the Google search, so he doesn't end there.
Speaker 1: Donald also argues that the syntax of anaki In is
Speaker 1: almost identical with that of English rather than Semitic languages
Speaker 1: like Arabic or Hebrew, which D claimed were direct degraded
Speaker 1: descendants of Anakian. And now most linguists are clearly going
Speaker 1: to agree that this is not the secret language of angels?
Speaker 1: But is it an actual language? If it was a
Speaker 1: fraudulent enterprise? Was decomplicit in the deception? Was he in
Speaker 1: on the joke? Was he an accomplice or a victim?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And how much money did he make? Really? In
Speaker 3: the end, how much money do these guys make talking
Speaker 3: about their angelic language. I'm interested. I'm gonna look it up,
Speaker 3: but I don't. I haven't seen any of the actual
Speaker 3: numbers there. And again, how much was like hidden? If there?
Speaker 3: If money was made? I for my money, I would
Speaker 3: say that just this is my opinion. D would probably
Speaker 3: believe it just from what I know about him and
Speaker 3: what I've learned about him and how intelligent he was,
Speaker 3: unless he was just trying to find, you know, a
Speaker 3: quick fix for money. But it doesn't seem like he
Speaker 3: would need that. It seems like he truly believed it,
Speaker 3: and maybe he got duped by Kelly. That's what it
Speaker 3: feels like to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I think that this is a viewpoint A
Speaker 1: lot of people would agree with Matt because in his
Speaker 1: work on the subject, Donald Lacok is clearly impressed by
Speaker 1: the consistency of the system of the language or the
Speaker 1: script at least, and he notes that it exhibits a
Speaker 1: deeper understanding of the Kabbala, specifically than he would assume
Speaker 1: someone like Edward Kelly possessed. But he still believes this
Speaker 1: is a fraud. He does not believe this is an
Speaker 1: otherworldly dictation or an exercise and automatic writing. He thinks
Speaker 1: that Kelly most likely engineered this in pursuit of a
Speaker 1: quick quid, and that was a sincere partner who was
Speaker 1: unaware of the deception. In his mind, Kelly was surreptitiously
Speaker 1: looking through the works of John Dee or his papers
Speaker 1: and cribbing that so that he could build something that
Speaker 1: looked convincing to someone who would have D's knowledge. And
Speaker 1: you can do that without understanding what you're mimicking.
Speaker 3: Right, that's a terrifying concept.
Speaker 1: I mean, it happens. And Donald also believes there's evidence
Speaker 1: that Kelly was working off of small notes in his sessions.
Speaker 1: It's interesting in Kelly's book on the subject, you can
Speaker 1: see specific times wherein the communications with the angels became garbled,
Speaker 1: and eventually Donald Laka just concludes that Kelly literally got
Speaker 1: his notes in the wrong order and that's why things
Speaker 1: didn't seem to make sense.
Speaker 3: Dude.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Moreover, he notes how the language this is interesting,
Speaker 1: how it seems to evolve over a short period of
Speaker 1: time from when they again collecting the notes to when
Speaker 1: they're really hitting their stride, And in one passage he
Speaker 1: specifically ask a great question, it's this we have a quotation.
Speaker 2: Can Kelly have got better at producing what was required
Speaker 2: of him as time went on? He must have learned
Speaker 2: a great deal from living in close contact with D,
Speaker 2: and D's credulity would blind him to slight internal contradictions.
Speaker 1: Interesting, so would he been able to present D's knowledge
Speaker 1: back to him in a way that confirmed what D
Speaker 1: was already certain of? And if so, after D ed
Speaker 1: entered the sunk cost fallacy of investing so much belief
Speaker 1: in time in this, would he have just maybe subconsciously
Speaker 1: ignored things that were clear contradictions. There are a couple
Speaker 1: times where d does note in inconsistency, but there are
Speaker 1: a lot of times where he lets stuff slide. So
Speaker 1: at this point is where it leaves us. People who
Speaker 1: do not believe in the existence of supernatural beings, especially angels,
Speaker 1: probably will not see the Inachian language as any solid proof.
Speaker 1: There's not we're we're not really changing any minds here.
Speaker 1: But people who do believe in this sort of stuff,
Speaker 1: in the existence of angelic forces or even divine or
Speaker 1: infernal forces that are intangible and usually imperceivable to humans,
Speaker 1: they probably won't see the indication of fraud in the
Speaker 1: Innachian language as an overall refutation of angels entire. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like saying that Australia doesn't exist because
Speaker 1: drop bears are not real?
Speaker 3: Are you saying drop bears aren't real? You're stating that
Speaker 3: saying it?
Speaker 1: Send me, send me some evidence.
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone who's ever come across a drop
Speaker 3: bear has lived to tell the tale, so I am
Speaker 3: holding off.
Speaker 1: Then how do we have stories about drop bears?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 3: Obsidian mirror?
Speaker 1: Okay, well played, all right, I'm back in. But it's
Speaker 1: true one thing being false doesn't invalidate everything associated with it,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like it's kind of like saying, well,
Speaker 1: if Tuesday is real, why isn't it tuesday? Now? You
Speaker 1: know what I mean. That's not a very perfect I
Speaker 1: just want to have my best comparison.
Speaker 3: I just want to have that kind of argument all
Speaker 3: day long. If USB is the standard, then why isn't
Speaker 3: that USB?
Speaker 1: That's totally right. Yeah, no, no, no, I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: just some guy who doesn't speak Anakian. Not yet, not yet.
Speaker 1: We want to hear from you, however, Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for checking out today's episode. Uh, first things first,
Speaker 1: and this may be a personal question for some of us.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that it is possible to communicate with
Speaker 1: things that are perhaps beyond the pale, something from another dimension,
Speaker 1: something from a higher plane of existence. Let's get Graham
Speaker 1: Hancock with it. Let's see what happens when you speak
Speaker 1: directly to your DNA on a d MT trip.
Speaker 3: Right. Oh man, Yeah, that sentence was great.
Speaker 1: I mean that's not me, that's Graham Hancock. That's what
Speaker 1: he believes. The machine elves and stuff oh sure.
Speaker 2: Sure, but just to put those words right next to
Speaker 2: each other to get a nice ring to it.
Speaker 1: What do you think that this is a case of
Speaker 1: historical fraud? Do you think there's something else to the story,
Speaker 1: and if so, what or what are some other examples
Speaker 1: of strange languages that you have encountered. You know, we're
Speaker 1: fans of the Voyage manuscript over here, which I think
Speaker 1: someone recently claimed to have decoded it again, but that
Speaker 1: happens every few years, right. You can let us know
Speaker 1: about this through any number of ways. If you do
Speaker 1: not happen to have a black Obcity and Mirror with
Speaker 1: you at this time, or if you feel your scribing
Speaker 1: skills are a bit rusty and don't want to be mistranslated,
Speaker 1: you can always contact us via the internet. We are
Speaker 1: on Instagram, We're on Facebook, We're on Twitter. Talk to
Speaker 1: the best part of the show your fellow listeners on
Speaker 1: our Facebook community page. Here's where it gets crazy. You
Speaker 1: can follow me directly on Instagram where I am at
Speaker 1: Ben Bowlin, I am.
Speaker 2: At Embryonic Insider.
Speaker 3: I am not available.
Speaker 2: You are so available. You've been there for years now.
Speaker 2: You're the most emotionally available person I know if not
Speaker 2: social medialy available.
Speaker 3: I just like stalking you guys. I saw that great
Speaker 3: picture from the holiday party that we had, like the
Speaker 3: super late January holiday party.
Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody nagged me really hard on that because Ben said,
Speaker 2: we look, we really do know how to clean up.
Speaker 2: When someone says I didn't know a jean jacket was
Speaker 2: cleaning up, oh and no, but the rest of me
Speaker 2: was cleaned up. You know, a nice geen jack.
Speaker 3: You know what you're doing.
Speaker 4: You're doing.
Speaker 3: You're doing the thing the in cells do where you're
Speaker 3: just seeing that one negative. It was the It was
Speaker 3: the only comment on the There are to comments.
Speaker 2: I saw into it early.
Speaker 3: It was very kind human beings.
Speaker 1: I think we looked good. The only thing that would
Speaker 1: have made that picture better is if our mysterious and
Speaker 1: enigmatic super producer, Paul Mission Control Decat would have deigned
Speaker 1: to make an appearance.
Speaker 3: Oh no, he We can't reveal Paul mission Control. If
Speaker 3: he doesn't have that air of mystery about him, what
Speaker 3: is the.
Speaker 1: Ship's basically over for us.
Speaker 2: People don't even understand how his last name is spelled.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna break that illusion either.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, Omerta, Hey, this is like the third
Speaker 1: episode in a row where I've just said that as
Speaker 1: a non sequit actor. What were you gonna say?
Speaker 3: Nothing? I was just gonna say, send me your thoughts
Speaker 3: through your black op city and mirror, because now I'm
Speaker 3: thinking we need to install one here somewhere in the
Speaker 3: office where we can, I don't know, try and communicate
Speaker 3: or send things through.
Speaker 2: Ben doesn't have a smartphone. Ben exclusively communicates via black
Speaker 2: obsidian mirror.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, look at your phones right now? Would
Speaker 3: that black mirror idea? I know we're joking, but just
Speaker 3: that concept of the black opsitian mirror, I've never actually
Speaker 3: made that connection.
Speaker 1: Oh nice, you're scrying.
Speaker 3: Oh god.
Speaker 1: Well, if you speaking of phones, if you prefer to
Speaker 1: communicate to a phone, you can give us a call.
Speaker 1: We have our very own number.
Speaker 3: It is one eight three three std WYTK. Yes, give
Speaker 3: us a call, leave us a message, and we'll see
Speaker 3: what happens from there. It's gonna be cool no matter
Speaker 3: what it is. By the way, by calling and leaving
Speaker 3: a message, you give us permission to use your voice
Speaker 3: in the podcast.
Speaker 1: Or this is a Facebook announcement for a twenty bucks
Speaker 1: or something extra, will wire tap your phone know about this?
Speaker 1: What Okay, I don't want to keep us going.
Speaker 3: Too long, but neither does Paul.
Speaker 1: I could say, but this is important. This is important
Speaker 1: for anybody who is a teen or has a teenager
Speaker 1: who was using Facebook. I think they cut it short
Speaker 1: because lawmakers became furious with this. But Facebook was offering
Speaker 1: teenagers a nominal fee for complete access to everything they
Speaker 1: do on their phone. Whoa, it was a Facebook research product.
Speaker 1: They would have teenagers install a VPN that let the
Speaker 1: company see everything they did there. And this story just
Speaker 1: broke as we were going into the into the booth.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm going to look at that now.
Speaker 1: Some of those kids are as young as thirteen.
Speaker 3: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you
Speaker 3: have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can
Speaker 3: get into contact with us in a number of different ways.
Speaker 3: One of the best is to give us a call.
Speaker 3: Our number is one eight three three std WYTK. If
Speaker 3: you don't want to do that, you can send us
Speaker 3: a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 3: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.