1 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Unexplained Extra with me Richard McClane Smith, where 2 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: for the weeks in between episodes, we look at stories 3 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: and ideas that, for one reason or other, didn't make 4 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: it into the previous show. In our last episode, two 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: More Names, we took a deep dive into the beguiling 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: mystery of the so called Summerton Man. Some of you 7 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: may recognize this story as a chapter taken from my book, 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: and as many of you will know, there's been quite 9 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: a significant development at the story since I wrote it, 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: namely that the man appears to have finally been identified. However, 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,959 Speaker 1: rather than a mend the story, I thought it might 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: be better to have someone else a little more qualified 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: explain the latest developments, and so for this week's extra, 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: we're going to do something different. Physicist and electronic engineer 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: Professor Derek Abbott of the University of Adelaide has perhaps 16 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: done more than anyone to help uncover the Summitton Man's identity. 17 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: In July twenty twenty one, he made the stunning announcement that, 18 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: thanks to his tireless work and that of genealogist Colleen Fitzpatrick, 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: they had finally cracked the mystery that kind of leads 20 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: me to my first question, I suppose, which is when 21 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: did you first hear about the summriton Man mysteries? Is 22 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: something that you presumably weren't aware of before you went 23 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: to Australia. Correct. I had never heard about it, and 24 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: the first time I heard of it was about ninety five. 25 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: I just happened to me in a laundromatte watching my clothes, 26 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: was around and picked up one of those magazines that 27 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: they leave in there, and it was an article about 28 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: the top ten top ten unsolved mysteries in Australia, and 29 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: I think this was ranked as number two, but one 30 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: was the disappearance of Harold Holt and put it down. 31 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: Never did anything with it until two thousand and seven, 32 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: where I saw an extended newspaper article that gave a 33 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: lot of detail and even reprinted the so called summrton 34 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: Man's code that he had written on the back of 35 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: the poetry book. And so that's what got my interest up. 36 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: At the beginning, I thought, Okay, I have no idea 37 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: whether this actually is even a code or not in 38 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: the first place, but let's see if I can set 39 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: this for a project for my students and the statistical 40 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: tests on the letters and see if we can determine 41 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: if it's a code or not. You say, your students, 42 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: what was your job at the time, Well, professor at 43 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 1: a at the University Badelaide and in the electrical engineering department, 44 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: and doing statistical analysis of data is something we do, 45 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: and you know, cryptosecurity and things as another thing we do. 46 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: So we know about codes. So I got my students 47 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 1: over the years to a set of many projects, to 48 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: various different students, and we looked at it over and 49 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: over again and compared it against all known World War 50 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: two type ciphers, and we were able to eliminate virtually 51 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: all of them. And it's looking like it isn't actually 52 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: a code. It just looks like the first letters of 53 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: words in the English language. We can say it's actually 54 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: English because we've tested it against other first letters of 55 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: words in other languages and English always comes out tops statistically. 56 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: So so that's what we think it is. And so 57 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: we think it's just something pedestrian that you know, it's 58 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: just an aide de memoir. It's just the first letters 59 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: of words. It could be anything. It could be, you know, 60 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: his horse betting strategy or trying to solve a puzzle 61 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: in a newspaper. Could we don't think it's anything anything conspiratorial, right, 62 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: And was it actually written in the book or was 63 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: it sort of marked onto, sort of scored onto it. 64 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: It was on the it was on the back cover, okay, 65 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: and it was very light. So it's unclear from the 66 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: old newspaper reports whether it was very lightly penciled or 67 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: whether it was just a press through from another page. 68 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: My guess it was just very very light pence all 69 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: and so yeah, so interesting. It's actually, you know, not 70 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: only is it not a code, but probably not relevant 71 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: to the specific book therefore, or the phone numbers that 72 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: were also found in the book, yes, there was some 73 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: right next to the circle colode bus some numbers. One 74 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: turned out to just be a local bank, and another 75 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: turned out to be a lady who had trained as 76 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: a nurse, who lived in fact five minutes away from 77 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: where the man was found dead, five minutes walk away. 78 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: So joining the dots, the police thought, well, she must 79 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: know something about this guy, so knocked on her door 80 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: and so do you know have you seen this book before? 81 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: And she said yes, and they go a h, so 82 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: you know about the sky coundad On Beach and she goes, 83 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: she back pedals and says, oh, no, no, I just 84 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: meant I've seen a Rubo yat Abmarkayam before, which is 85 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: what the book was, right, And so they dragged her 86 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: into see a plaster cast. So they had made off 87 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: the dead body, so it's a death mask. I ought 88 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: to add that this had happened about six months after 89 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: he had died. Yes, So they dragged her in to 90 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: have a look at the plaster cast, and apparently she 91 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: was quite evasive and very uncommunicative and behaved very strangely. 92 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: She just looked down at the floor for the whole 93 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: interview and didn't even look at the plaster cast, right, 94 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: And so the police thought she knew something. But they 95 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: push her because you know, this wasn't classed as a homicide. 96 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: If you look at the police file, they always believed 97 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: it was actually a suicide. That was their, yeah, their 98 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: strong belief. And you know, if it was classed as 99 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: a homicide, you know they could put the heavies on 100 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: over but that was not the case here, and so 101 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: they just let her go. Right. So there's me with 102 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: the working on the code many years later, and the 103 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: circle code, and you know, at the beginning of my work, 104 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't really know if it was a 105 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: code or not. It hadn't come to any conclusions. So 106 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, if it is a code, maybe 107 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to need some context. Maybe I need to 108 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: find out this lady's name. Perhaps her name is a 109 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: key to this code or something like that. So I 110 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: set about trying to find out who she was, because 111 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: her name was never published, but they did published sufficient 112 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: detail that the newspapers said, you know which hospital she 113 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: had trained in, the Royal Malls Shaw Hospital in Sydney, 114 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: and that she lived very close to where the man 115 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: was found dead and stuff like that. So using the 116 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: hospital records and electoral Royal records and stuff, I was 117 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: able to figure it out. It was like a huge 118 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: chicksaw puzzle, right, But yes, I found out and her 119 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: name was Joe Thompson. That's the name she went by, right, 120 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: that comes from your work, So I didn't know that. Yes, 121 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: well it was known to police, but he you know, 122 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: they had never let that out, right, And so it 123 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: was confirmed later by police that are alive who didn't 124 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: know her name, and they didn't confirm that, and so 125 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: She was born Jesse Harkness, but went by the name 126 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: Joe Thompson later in life spelled Jacob, which I believe 127 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: is a bit of a Scottish name, isn't it. And 128 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: her heritage, if you trace her family tree back, does 129 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: go back to Scotland in fact, right, So she was 130 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: also known as Jessica. Is that right? Jessin? Is that? 131 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: Because I've read that too. Well, she was born Jesse 132 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: Jesse Harkness was her maiden name, but then she changed 133 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: her first name. Well, she was known as Joe to 134 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: all her family and friends, right. I think it was 135 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: her husband that her husband to be that nicknamed her that. 136 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: On her gravestone, it doesn't say Jesse though, it says 137 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: Jessica because you know, it's descendants that put stuff on 138 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: gravestones and the person who is buried is never responsible 139 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: for it. The work you put into that finding out 140 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: her name, at this point you kind of becoming more 141 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: interesting to getting to the bottom of the mystery. How 142 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: does this sort of expand into Yeah, so I was 143 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: starting to after I found the context, you know, found 144 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: out this lady's name and found more context of the time, 145 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: it is sort of drew me in I got really 146 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: interested in all the events of the time. I was 147 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: realizing more and more that this wasn't a code as 148 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: time went on, and so I thought, actually, the real 149 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: problem here is to identify the man, not the code. 150 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: The code is just a distraction. What would be really 151 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 1: interesting is to find out who he is is. Around 152 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: twenty ten, I in fact noticed that the plaster bust 153 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: which is in the Police Museum here actually has hairs 154 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: embedded in it because it was molded directly off the 155 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: dead body. And you can tell these are real hairs 156 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: that came off the body and aren't just something off 157 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: the mortary floor, because they're all standing on end all 158 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: information ripped directly off the body. So I thought, ah, 159 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: this is a potential source of DNA. So I got 160 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: some permission in twenty eleven to grab some hairs out 161 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: of the bus, which we did, and unfortunately the technology 162 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: of the time wasn't good enough to extract DNA from 163 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: a hair let alone hair that old. So anyway, we 164 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: bit the bullet and in two thousand and fifteen our 165 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: DNA lab at head Laid University had a go. We 166 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: selected the three best hair roots that we had and 167 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: tried to get some DNA out of them. It did 168 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: test positive for DNA, there was actually DNA there, so 169 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: that was encouraging, but we got absolutely virtually nothing out 170 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: of it. We got no sequence or all we were 171 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: able to get was what's called his maternal happler group, 172 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: and so we knew his mother's group was h and 173 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: that's all we knew. So it was a little bit disappointing, 174 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: but also exciting that at least there was viable DNA 175 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: in there. And so then in twenty and eighteen we 176 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: had another crack at the lab at the university and bingo, 177 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: we got the whole mitochondrial genome. That's all then from 178 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: the mother's side. Unfortunately, that's not the sort of DNA 179 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: you need to identify somebody. To identify somebody like this 180 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: where you don't have any comparison to compare the person with, 181 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: what you need to do is upload on genealogical DNA 182 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: websites and find nearest cousins, you know, like ancestry dot 183 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: com and stuff like that. Now, those those websites people 184 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: may or may not know this. The DNA they use 185 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: is quite different to what police do. Police use quite 186 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: long strands of DNA long sequences roughly around to three markers, 187 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: depending on what jurisdiction you're in. Usually it's around twenty 188 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: to twenty three. These DNA websites don't do that. They 189 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: use much shorter DNA markers, and they use anywhere between 190 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: half a million to two million of them. It's a 191 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: completely different ball game. It's the part of the DNA 192 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: that's inherited from both the mother and the father, So 193 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: the mitochondrial genome which we extracted was no good. We 194 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: needed the part of the DNA that's the mixture of 195 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: both parents, and these are called the autosomes. We only 196 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: got sixteen thousand of those, and which was a huge breakthrough, 197 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: but not enough. It's a way below half a million, 198 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: which is what's really needed. So I tried my best 199 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: at seeing if I could make two with the sixteen thousand, 200 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: and it just didn't work. It was a bit flop. 201 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: Now a word from our sponsor, better help. 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This time I used a lab 218 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: in the USA which had some latest cutting edge technology 219 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: for extracting DNA from hair, and so I took my 220 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: best hair root sent it off to them that I 221 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: had nervously saved up since two thousand and eleven, always 222 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: over ten years, and guess what, it was a big flop. 223 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: It didn't give us a sequence, and so I was mortified. 224 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: This is my best hair root that I'd saved up. 225 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: So then went to Plan B and sent them five 226 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: centimeters of hair shaft with no root and guess what 227 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: we got two million markers. Wow. Yeah, So what we're 228 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: able to do is were those two million markers were 229 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: able to upload it and mind his nearest cousins that 230 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: are alive today, and his top hit was a chap 231 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: in Victoria, Australia, which is a state next door to me, 232 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: and the other closest matches were also in Victoria, so 233 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: straight off, this was not looking like a Russian spy 234 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: after all, or American or whatever. Another part of the 235 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: story is another twist of the whole story, which we 236 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: haven't gone into yet, is that Joe Thompson had a 237 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: son born out of Wedlocke who mysteriously had features that 238 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: looked rather like the Summerton Man, and one of the 239 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: theories was perhaps he's the Summitton Man. So what I 240 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: was able to do was compare the DNA of the 241 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: Summerton Man to his daughter that's alive, the daughter of 242 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: Joe Thompson's son, that is, who also I happened to 243 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: be married too. So that's another little twist. I don't 244 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: know if you've explained that to the audience here. No, 245 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: I haven't at all. So if you don't be able 246 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: to go into that a little bit, because I mean, 247 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: that is extraordinary, and yeah, my main question was, at 248 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: what point did you meet your wife in this sort 249 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: of journey of yours so to speak. I met my 250 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: wife around twenty ten. It was basically because Joe Thompson 251 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: had passed away two years before I found out who 252 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: she was, and then I thought, well, I should interview 253 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: her son, Robin, But he had passed away like literally 254 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: two months before I figured out how to contact him. 255 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: So then I thought, well, does he have any descendants? 256 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: So I interviewed a daughter of his, Rachel, and we 257 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: hit it off and decided to get married the next day. 258 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: So that's incredible. And then we really did get married 259 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: about three months later. So being married, obviously I had 260 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: her DNA on tap and so immediately that's the first 261 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: thing I did when we got the Summerton Man's two 262 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: million markers is compared it against my wife and guess what, 263 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: absolute zero match. Not a single scary in the class 264 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: task as well? Was there not a story? I thought, 265 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: I've read at some point that Joe Thompson had said 266 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: something at some point much later in her life in 267 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: relation to the man's identity. Was that a fabrication in 268 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: the paper, or had she alluded to knowing him at 269 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: some point. People always said they thought she'd knew something, 270 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: but she never admitted it. I see, So what you've 271 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: probably been reading is probably people saying that I bet 272 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: she knew something. Yeah right, So yes, so we ruled 273 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: out my wife being related and hence her father, so 274 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: that was interesting. So yeah, so we eliminated that possibility. 275 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: And then we started looking at these nearest cousins that 276 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: were in Victoria. So the fact they were from Victoria, 277 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: Australia meant straight away that you know, these the top matches, 278 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: so you know, this guy's obviously not some Russian spy 279 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: or American or whatever. It kind of eliminated all the 280 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: fanciful theory straight away and just some ordinary bloke from 281 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: the state next door. So from the top match, what 282 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: we're able to do is and this is myself and 283 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: Colleen Fitzpatrick from America who's an expert genealogist. We worked 284 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: on this together and built out the family tree. And 285 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: because we were working in the dark, and you know, 286 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: we didn't know which which direction the tree would go 287 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: in and stuff like that, where to look in the tree, 288 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: we obviously just went ballistic and just built out the 289 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: tree too, like it was like at four thousand people 290 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: on it in the end. Wow. And then it seemed 291 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: this chap in Victoria connected to a family quite quickly 292 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: called Keene A K A N E. Right, And this 293 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: is quite significant because as we all know, the Summerton 294 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: man had the name Keene written on some items of 295 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: his clothing, written in India ink. And he even had 296 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: a laundry bag with the name Keen stenciled on it. Right, 297 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: And laundry bags with stenciled names is a very sort 298 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: of World War two army type thing. So what's he 299 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: doing with these items with the name Keen on them? 300 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: So Colleen immediately said, oh, I bet he's a Keen, 301 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: because you know it is connecting to this Keene family. 302 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: And so she was part and pun very Keen on this. 303 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: And we're looking at these Keens and we couldn't find 304 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: any of missing. They were all fine, they all were 305 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: well accounted for, and they had all had dates of 306 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: death way after nineteen forty eight. We're thinking back to 307 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: the drawing board and I was saying, I'm saying to Colleen, 308 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, I think this whole Keen thing is a distraction. 309 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: It's a coincidence. You know, it's a common name. Okay, 310 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: so there's somebody on this family tree or four thousand 311 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: with the name Keen, and he happens to have that 312 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: name on his tie. You know, it could just be 313 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: a coincidence. And so I say to her, look, I 314 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: think we'd better move on. And so what we do 315 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: is we then find we then look at other people 316 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: on the tree that don't have dates of death right, 317 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: And that can happen for all kinds of reasons, you know, 318 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: birth deaths and marriage officers, particularly in the world from 319 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: World War two times, you know, can have information lost, 320 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, or there could be some flood or something. 321 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: But it's a good place to start. So we did 322 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: find a couple of people close to this Keen family 323 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: that looked like they didn't have a date of birth. 324 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: One of them we were able to find a photo 325 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: four and Colleen was saying, hmm, this photo does look 326 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: a bit like the Summerton man. And I was saying 327 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: that it doesn't doesn't look like him to me, you know. 328 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: But there's a trouble with all fuzzy photos. You can 329 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: make them look like anything. You want really, And so 330 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: we had a bit of a disagreement over that, and 331 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: then another chat. A person of interest was a guy 332 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: who was born by the name Carl Webb in nineteen 333 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: o five but went by the name Charles Webb later 334 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: in life. You know, no, no date of death. Couldn't 335 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: find a photo on him, but we thought, well, we 336 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: ought to check this one as well. So what I 337 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: did was because the tree had been built out through 338 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: the Keen family, which was in fact by marriage, because 339 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: his sister Freedom had married a guy called Keene, what 340 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: we thought we should do is well, go away from 341 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: that side of the family tree and look at the 342 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: summer to Man's mother and tunnel her tree down and 343 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: find somebody on that side of the family that it 344 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: is alive today and test their DNA. And so we did, 345 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: and guess what it didn't match. It was a big 346 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: flot So there's another twist, and thought, oh my god, 347 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: what's gone wrong here? And here's the twist. The twist 348 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: is that the Sumrton Man's mother for Charles Webb's mother, 349 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: I should say, is didn't Her maiden name was Grace. 350 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: But we found out that her supposed father wasn't mister Grace. 351 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: It was another chap. Wow it was mister Morris, and 352 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: I don't think she ever knew herself who her real 353 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: dad was. Wow, how did you find that out? That 354 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: was interesting that there were some genealogists already on ancestry 355 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: dot Com who looked like they had figured this out 356 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: and so were by poking around on family trees there 357 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: had We saw that. And the interesting thing about this 358 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: was Colleen went straight for this. She said, Yep, this 359 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: is right, this is he's a Morris. And I'm actually skeptical. 360 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: So it's me going, oh, I don't I'm not sure 361 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: there's enough evidence for this, because you know, it looks 362 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: like there's some suppositions here and things like that. So 363 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: what we did is we okay, well let's say it 364 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: is Morris. Then, so we tunneled down the mother's side 365 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: family tree, assuming the correct father now, and get this 366 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: part of the family tree correct, find an alive person 367 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: who was prepared to descendant, who was prepared to be tested. 368 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: So I rang them up Kenny. It was very helpful 369 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: and he agreed, and I think a couple of months 370 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: later his DNA came through and it was a match. 371 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: Bingo it's amazing. So get this. Not only did we 372 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: get this match, and so not only did it prove 373 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: straight away that hey, Charles Webb is the Summerton Man, 374 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: because we've got to like a triangulation now from too 375 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: distant different parts of the family tree meeting point, so 376 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: it's a triangulation, but it also proves that his mother 377 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: was really a Morris all in one hit. Yeah. Then 378 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: what we did is usually with this sort of work, 379 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: one doesn't just do one confirmation. One looks for many. 380 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: So what we're able to then do is look to 381 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: see who else is on the database that's close to 382 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: our new chap that we had just found and see 383 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: if they also matched as Summerton Man. And we found 384 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: another one, so we found another triangulation point. And then 385 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: what I was able to do is contact close descendants 386 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: of Charles Webb. So I found a granddaughter of one 387 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: of his sisters, and I also found a great grandson 388 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: and great granddaughter of his eldest brother. And so got 389 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: all these people tested, and every time it was a 390 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: fantastic match. And the amount of DNA overlap we're just 391 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: kept increasing and increasing as we've got you know, these 392 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: closer family relatives. It's just now completely beyond all reasonable 393 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: doubt that you know, Charles Webb is the Summerson man. Yeah, 394 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: that's it's incredible. And I mean, how do these people 395 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: how did they feel, I mean, firstly being approached, but 396 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: secondly sort of finding themselves now part of this story 397 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: in a way? Is it something? Because I guess the 398 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: whole thing about the story of the sum To Man 399 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: is there's the question, there's a sort of ethical question 400 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: about whether this is maybe he wanted to die anonymously. 401 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: You know, maybe maybe there's an element of that wanting 402 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: to sort of retreat from the world, and we are 403 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: now interested in trying to sort of stir that back 404 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: up in a way, maybe against the man's wishes. But 405 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: did actually people find it? Were they thankful? Was it 406 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: a sort of reassuring thing? Well, it they were thankful. 407 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: They were very pleased to help. And without exception, it 408 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: just so happens that, you know, all the people are 409 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: contacted were actually genuinely interested in their own family tree. Yeah, 410 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: some of them had even drawn out their family tree 411 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: and did wonder what happened to Uncle Charlie, you know, 412 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: And there was no oral history that had been passed 413 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: down from their family to say what had happened to him. Yeah, 414 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: so they were quite pleased to have it all worked out. 415 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: Could you tell us what we do know about Charles Webber? 416 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: What you what you know or what has been found 417 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: out about him? So what we've been able to find 418 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: out now is that Charles Webb was born in nineteen 419 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: oh five. Is dad was a German immigrant from Hamburg 420 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: and his mom was a local I believe of Scottish 421 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: ancestry originally involved another Scotland connection there, and his dad 422 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: was basically a baker. They grew up in various towns 423 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: in Victoria, close to Melbourne, and his dad worked in 424 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: various different bakeries. He seemed to change jobs quite a lot, 425 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: but finally settled in nineteen twenty eight and bought his 426 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: own bakery in a little town called Springvale which is 427 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,239 Speaker 1: now part of Melbourne, not so little anymore, but it 428 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: was a little tiny place back then. And so they 429 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: had the bakery in spring Vale, and so Charles and 430 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: his brother Roy worked at the bakery also I believe 431 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: his older brother Russell or Richard Russell. Sorry, And it 432 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: seems by nineteen twenty eight the sisters had all left 433 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: home and got married. Richard had also actually left home, 434 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: but it seemed he came into work at bakery, but 435 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,959 Speaker 1: the two brothers were still at home and lived at 436 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: the bakery with their parents, and we're working there. It 437 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: seems also around nineteen twenty eight that he had trained 438 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: as an electrical fitter and instrument maker, but also appears 439 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: that he was also working at the bakery all at 440 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: the same time. So one and we haven't been able 441 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: to find his place of work. So I'm just wondering 442 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: whether he was working at the bakery but also kind 443 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: of doing it. It's electrical work on a contract basis, 444 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: something like this. This is what I'm thinking, because it 445 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: seems like he was doing two jobs at once as 446 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: far as I can see. Ye, so this could possibly 447 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: explain why there's no work colleagues of course, yeah, counting 448 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: him as missing. The explanation why no family members came 449 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: forward to say, look, this Chap's missing is if you 450 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: look at the family, it seems that was one big, 451 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: happy family around nineteen twenty eight. But around twenty nine, Richard, 452 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: his eldest brother, his wife dies young and leaves him 453 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: small children, which he then has to farm out to 454 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: an orphanage, and then his brother Roy dies in nineteen 455 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: forty three in World War Two. His nephew John Keene 456 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: dies in nineteen forty three, also in World War Two. 457 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: His dad dies in nineteen thirty nine, just after selling 458 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: the bakery, and then Lue dies in nineteen forty seven, sorry, 459 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: nineteen forty six, rather and basically all these events happen 460 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: over this short space of time, and basically the family 461 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: becomes all fragmented, you know. And it's the war as well, 462 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: just after World turned. So they're all fragmented. They've had 463 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: all these deaths, and they're probably not all speaking to 464 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: each other anymore, you know. I'm sure people are familiar 465 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: with the idea of it happens in all families, you know, 466 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: there are deaths and terms of events and family snatches. 467 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: Don't speak to each other anymore. After a while, it happens. 468 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: And then in nineteen forty seven, Charles and his wife separate, 469 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: so obviously she's not speaking to him anymore either, and 470 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: she passed for a divorce on Crowns with desertion. She 471 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: doesn't know where his whereabouts is, and forty seven is 472 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: the last time we see him on any documentation. He 473 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: drops off any electoral role records or anything like that. 474 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: It's just totally disappears off the record. So it's very interesting. 475 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: So and why did he go to Adelaide of all places? 476 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: That's a bit mysterious. He's limited resident of Victoria. Why 477 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: did he travel by train to Adelaide and and you know, 478 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: go lie down on the beach and die? Very strange? 479 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: And why the book in the car? Yeah, that's another thing. 480 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: So there's still still many strange mysteries that will probably 481 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: never know and the mystery. I think the mystery will 482 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: still live on, and I think the internet conspiracy theorists 483 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: will still believe he's some sort of side. You know, 484 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: these things will never go away. I'm sure we do 485 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: have a possible hypothesis why he went to Adelaide of 486 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: all places. And a strange, strange twist is in his 487 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: wife's divorce papers, divorce affer David, she lists her address 488 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: as being in South Australia, right, which is the state 489 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: where Adelaide is. So that's very interesting. But we don't 490 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: know the date that she actually arrived here, but we've 491 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: just pretend that perhaps she was here already, perhaps it 492 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: was her that he had come to see. Yeah, so anyway, 493 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: that's a mystery something for the Internet sleuths to ponder on. 494 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: What's next view in regards to the case. Are you 495 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: going to continue? Is there more to find out that 496 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: you're interested to know? And you mentioned also going do 497 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: some work on the Voynache manuscript. Is that something also 498 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: you're doing? Yeah? Yeah, so yeah, we're doing work on 499 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: the Voynache manuscript. I probably should be spending more time 500 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: on that and less time on this now because I 501 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: think I think I've squeezed out about as much as 502 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: anyone can find on this case. I don't think we're 503 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 1: going to find any other big nuggets on the Summerton 504 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: man So maybe it's time to let this go and 505 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: look at the Voynache. So yeah, we're working on that 506 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: fast and furiously, and you know, I might we might 507 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: have some interesting results on that by next to you 508 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: to announce, Wow, look forward to hearing that. Thank you 509 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 1: very much, really really appreciate your time. Thank you. If 510 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: you enjoy Unexplained and would like to help supporters, you 511 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: can now do so via Patreon. To receive access to 512 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: add three episodes, just go to patron dot com Forward 513 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: Slash Unexplained Pod to sign up. Unexplained, The book and audiobook, 514 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: featuring ten stories that have never before been covered on 515 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: the show, is now available to buy worldwide. You can 516 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: purchase through Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Waterstones, among other bookstores. 517 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: All elements of Unexplained, including the show's music, are produced 518 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: by me Richard McClain smith. 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