1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: to the show Ridiculous Historians. We are so happy that 3 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: you have joined us today. My name is Ben am 4 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: was always joined with our super producer Casey pegram My 5 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: trustee co host nol Is on some Adventures and I 6 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: have the immense pleasure of welcoming back to the show 7 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: our one of our favorite recurring guest, longtime friend of 8 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: mine in real life, and then a longtime friend of 9 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: the show folks. Hello to Christopher haciotis Ben Casey. Thank 10 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: you so much for having me back. It's a real pleasure. Yeah, 11 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 1: I'm glad we worked out that cookie thing. I don't 12 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: know what you're talking about, so so uh the bit 13 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: of trivia. Here, as Casey and Christopher and I record 14 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: today's episode, we are all wearing pants nowadays. That's like 15 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: a regular thing you expect when you go out into 16 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: the world, that you'll see someone wearing pants. Yeah, I 17 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: saw like, at least I don't know, tend people wearing 18 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: pants today. Um, they've really caught on, probably more, I 19 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah. Let me let me paint a picture 20 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: though for listeners. Um, I'm sitting here in the studio. 21 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: Band is in the studio with me. Casey is right 22 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: outside the studio manning the computer and the and the 23 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: knobs and the switches and all those things. Um, I 24 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: can see. Uh, let's see so our our studio is 25 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: covered in sort of a dark gray milk crate sound 26 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: absorbing substance. We've got some pens and coffee cups on 27 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: the table, We've got microphones. There's a floor lamp behind you, 28 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: floor lamp um, some plants, various housecats, little dragon over there. 29 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: And then I see sitting across the table from me, 30 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: a Rakish gentleman in a blue and brownish plaid shirt, 31 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: a little you know, kind of adventurous facial hair, and 32 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: I cus, how dare you know? Why? Well, let's move 33 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: on outside. I out out the window. I see another 34 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: gentleman with some adventurous facial hair and you know, just 35 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: really alluring good looks. Also a plaid with a brown 36 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: and blue a little more white than maybe yours. Ben, 37 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: It's no secret big Plaid runs this podcast. Well, I 38 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: don't see, though I'm looking. I don't know if you 39 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: guys are wearing pants. Oh, but you know what, it's fine. 40 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: I could see all your hands. So I know that 41 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: you're not hiding any weapons or no knives or guns whatever. 42 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: But you know what I think, in this day, if 43 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: you were not wearing pants, if you were wearing something 44 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: maybe a little more unexpected, it would still be fine. 45 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 1: That's that's right. If you're wearing something more unexpected, you 46 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: will have people react accordingly, barrel um, I guess like 47 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: a big pilot monkeys. Yeah. One thing one't common alternative 48 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: for a lot of people would be a kilt. Ye like, 49 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,119 Speaker 1: it's some people very popular on certain times the year. 50 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: I was just up in Franklin, North Carolina, recently, and 51 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: they have a Museum of the American Tartan I believe 52 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: it's what it was called, the whole museum dedicated to 53 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: h two kilts and Scottish patterns. And did you go? 54 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: I walked past, it was closed. I was closed. I 55 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: was on my way to the Museum of the American 56 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: house Cat, which is a little further north in the 57 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: North Carolina Mountains. That's not why we're here today, though, 58 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: But I would incur anyone listening who's in the vicinity 59 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: of western North Carolina, northern Georgia, eastern Tennessee in that 60 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: sort of smokey mountain area. Go check out the Museum 61 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: of the American house Cat. I am ac on board 62 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: and don't know why I haven't done that earlier. Can 63 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: I just tell you there's a mummified cat? Yes? Please, 64 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 1: thank you? Now I have to go. Also, just before 65 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: we move on, is it is it a pretty robust museum? 66 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: Is it something that you could spend a few hours in? 67 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: You could? You could? People do love cats. Um, it 68 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: is made up for what it lacks in breadth by 69 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: significant depth. Okay, there we go. It's a very very 70 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: well thought out answer. I'm impressed. I thought about the 71 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: Museum of the American house Cat a good amount of 72 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: the past week. So so you're you're right. Today we 73 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: are regrettably not diving into the fascinating history. Ben. Actually, 74 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: you know what, I did bring it up for a reason. 75 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: Can I retroactively make that tangent relevant? Yes? Oh? Yes, 76 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: because at the Museum of the American Housecat, who is 77 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: I promise not a sponsor of this show, but probably 78 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: should be. With as much as I've mentioned them in 79 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: the past couple of minutes, Um, there are really really 80 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: charming paintings of cats wearing say dresses, frilly dresses, frocks, mocks, 81 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, any sort of petticoat, ball gowns. Maybe, so 82 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: I bring up the idea of a cat wearing a dress, because, um, 83 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: sometimes people think it's inappropriate for certain people to wear 84 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: certain things. Yes, absolutely, I was was that like ya 85 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: sitting for Noel's like tangent, I kind of tie it in. Okay, 86 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: I thought you did a great job. Yeah, this is 87 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: this is probably one of the best ones we've had 88 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: on this show. Uh so surround best. Noel has a 89 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: lot to live up to. I do as well. It 90 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: is true, Christopher, that we see so very often throughout history, 91 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: we see the way that people communicate through dress, or 92 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: we see the way that dress is perceived or enforced. 93 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: Right like here in the US nowadays, if someone is 94 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 1: just walking around in public, then other than covering you know, 95 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: let's be honest, like Genitalia and and probably nipples counting 96 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: there too, nipples, buttocks, right, other than covering those areas, 97 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: it's pretty much anything goes. You can kind of wear 98 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: what you want. I mean, I to inject a little 99 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: bit of socio political cultural reality into that. Many of 100 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: us who maybe are you know, white men, for instance, 101 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: can get away with stuff absolutely. People from different communities 102 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: get polased all the time for what they're wearing when 103 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: they get profiled. Yeah, but that is that kind of discrimination, 104 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: and that kind of profiling is not legal. It's just 105 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: it's just this country does a piss poor job of 106 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: actually following the letter of the law in the in 107 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: these regards. And you're right, because uh, privilege is a 108 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: huge is a huge problematic part of this thing. There's 109 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: also throughout the span of human civilization there are examples 110 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: of certain clothing types being restricted to certain people based 111 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: on socio economic or socio political cast system a hierarchy 112 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: for lack of a better word. And today's story is 113 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: about one of the most ridiculous related uh, series of 114 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: events that that we found that applies in this And 115 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: this is something that you introduced me to via our 116 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: fantastic peer podcast, Stuff Mom Never Told You. Yeah, Stuff 117 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You is a really terrific show. It's 118 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: got a long history here at the company and has 119 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: been running for ten plus years um and really dives 120 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: into a wide variety of issues relating to a myriad 121 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: of things that women in today's society face and touches 122 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: on history, politics, culture, entertainment, and it really runs the gamut. 123 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: So if you're interested in a really well researched, well 124 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: thought out conversational show about that, and if it sounds 125 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: up your alley, check out Stuff Mom Never Told You listeners, 126 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: if you haven't already. But yeah, as we were kind 127 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: of poking through the stuff mon I Ever told you archives, 128 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: we came across a piece written by former colleague of 129 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: ours and it sparked the idea to really dig into 130 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 1: some of these stories about women who have been arrested 131 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: for wearing pants. That's why we've been talking about pants 132 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: so much, and that's that's it. To be absolutely clear, 133 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: the crime they were arrested for was not like stealing 134 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: a carriage while wearing pants. It was just wearing pants. 135 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: I will also add that these arrests took place in 136 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: the United States. Yes, so this is not this isn't like, Okay, 137 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: we're talking about some fairly repressive regime in um, you know, 138 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: a part of the world that maybe has traditions that 139 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: would really really overtly frown on that talking about the 140 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: United States. And we're also yeah, we're also not talking 141 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: about religious splinter groups or very conservative communities that are 142 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: isolated from mainstream US culture. We're talking about the regular, 143 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: everyday Jane's and Joe's of this country, and Chris for you, 144 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: and I looked through and found a couple of examples. 145 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 1: I propose that we round robin them, you know. And 146 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: I also felt, to be completely clear, I felt so 147 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: just baffled and and beflummixed to learn that this was 148 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: a real thing. It seemed like, you know, and this 149 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: is this just highlights MI tremendous ignorance in this regard, 150 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: but it seemed like something that people would consider a 151 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: big deal much earlier in history. Because these cases are 152 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 1: some of them are distressingly recent. And that's the thing. 153 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: These are cases, right, So today we're not talking about 154 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: the woman who was arrested for wearing pants. We're talking 155 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: about the women, multiple women, in multiple instances, over hundreds 156 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: of years in this country, who are arrested specifically for 157 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: sporting pants, trousers, uh, you know, dungarees, whatever you want 158 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: to call them, pieces of fabric wrapped around two legs 159 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: rather than worn as one long sheath like a dress. Right. 160 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: The situations range from you know, humorous, the heartbreaking, because 161 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: every person we're discussing in today's episode is pretty much 162 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: a he in in how they stood up to the 163 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: prejudice and discrimination of the time. Christopher, being that you 164 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 1: are returning guests here, would would you like to kick 165 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: us off today? Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to 166 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: tell you about the story of Mary Tilts. And there 167 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: was a woman who lived in New Jersey in the 168 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds, so we're talking about a good long 169 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: time ago. At the time, it was much more traditional 170 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: for a woman to wear really kind of full dress, right, 171 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: So if you think back to that sort of Victorian fashion, 172 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: probably what you're thinking when you're thinking those CPIA toned 173 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: photos is fairly accurate. You know, corsets, petticoats, tights, hats, 174 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, sort of that Bodice War and a tight outfit. 175 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: Mary Tillotson, though, going back to the eight forties, really 176 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: started kind of shortening her dresses, at least in eighteen 177 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: forty two. The historical record, and a lot of this 178 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: comes from a couple of different pieces. Um forgive the 179 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: long titles, but that's what academics tend to do. If 180 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: this sort of thing sounds fun to you dig into 181 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: the Freedom Suit, Feminism and Dress Reform in the United 182 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: States seventy five. That's a journal article written by Amy 183 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: Kestleman back in uh. There's also a lot of information 184 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 1: that we got from the two thousand three book by 185 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: Patricia and Cunningham, Reforming Women's Fashion eighteen fifty to nineteen 186 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: twenty Politics, Health and Art. And I say politics, health 187 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: and art because that's actually at the heart of Mary 188 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: Tillotson's arrest. So the reason that she was changing her 189 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: mode of dress, shortening her dress, you know, making it shorter, 190 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: taking about a foot off, and switching to what was 191 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 1: known as reform dress. The reform dress was a specific 192 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 1: style where a woman would wear trousers and a short 193 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: dress over it. It looked a little bit sort of 194 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: like a what we might think of as a work outfits. 195 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: This was for health reasons. So Mary Tillotson was part 196 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: of a movement called the Dress Reform Society adopting reform dress. 197 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: Her impetus was that she was suffering from dyspepsia, indigestion, 198 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: really poor health, and thought that if I loosened some 199 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: of the scarb it might really offer some health benefits. 200 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: And for her it did. The thing is, Mary Tillotson 201 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: was out in public in Newark in eighteen forties and 202 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: she was arrested. The other thing about that is it 203 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: wasn't illegal, you know. And this this calls back a 204 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: little bit ben to what you mentioned, how there's this 205 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: divide between cultural norms and what is or isn't legal. 206 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: Mary Tillotson was arrested for wearing pants, not because it 207 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: was against the law, but because the police officer in Newark, 208 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: New Jersey, assumed it was against the law. He thought, 209 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: surely there must be a law against a woman wearing trousers. 210 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: Let me lock this woman up. And that's that's the 211 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: thing we have to emphasize here. She was arrested and 212 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: was doing nothing wrong, and it wasn't as if she were, 213 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: you know, just sort of hassled on the street side 214 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: and then let go with a warning or whatever. Like. 215 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: They took her in, right, yeah, arrested, spent the night 216 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: in prison, was eventually released because I was found to 217 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: be violating no laws, you know. But that's the thing 218 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: that that's what's tricky. I think a lot of times 219 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: we talked about interactions with police and the courts. Um. 220 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: You know, if a police officer takes you into custody, 221 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: it's not like you can just immediately say hey, wait 222 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: a minute, there's no law and walk out. You still 223 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: have to spend time in prison, You still have to 224 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: go through the legal appeals. Like there's a huge hassle 225 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: involved in all this stuff, all based solely on one 226 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: man's assumption that this this violation of social norms also 227 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: carried with an event lation of the law, which is 228 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: it's ridiculous, right, it's ridiculous, and and that there is 229 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: no system in place at the time too, then immediately 230 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: refute those claims, you know, mechanism. Yeah and so so. 231 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: Mary Tillison spent time in prison for wearing pants. But 232 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: this wasn't just a personal thing for her. Till Itson. 233 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: Actually I mentioned that the reform dress styles of trousers 234 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: and short dresses for health reasons. It's something that she 235 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: adopted as a cause for pretty much the rest of 236 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: her life. She helped form the Dress Reform Society in 237 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy the American Free Dress League in eighteen seventy five. Um, 238 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, she was part of a movement of really 239 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: trying to push forth a more liberated agenda. She was 240 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: part of a movement in eighteen sixty eight to try 241 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: to vote, which at the time women were not permitted 242 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: to do in the United States, among many other people, 243 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: and she she even cataloged her whole endeavor in a 244 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: book that she wrote called History of the First thirty 245 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: five Years of the Science Costume Movement in the United States. 246 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: And science Costume is uh, kind of a funny name, 247 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: but it was another term for the reformed dress um 248 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: outfit because the idea was based on supposedly scientific principles 249 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: that given a little more freedom of movement, women would 250 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: be healthier. It plays into and some of the authors 251 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: of the books that I mentioned earlier bring this up 252 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: that Tillotson was part of an early feminist movement and 253 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: her peers in that that reform dress movement didn't endeavor 254 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: really to push through political reform or economic reform through policy. 255 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: It was more to present themselves in their lives as 256 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: modes of being and to inspire other people on an 257 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: individual basis to adopt that way of living, that way 258 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: of dress. And uh, you know, it was it was 259 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: a that that specific reform dress. And there are certainly 260 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: fashion historians who are much more steep in this than 261 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: I am. It only lasted for a couple of years, 262 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: and then fashion sort of swung back in the other 263 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: direction in the eighteen um sixties, I believe. But it 264 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: was the start of something. It was the start of something. 265 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: But it also was not the end of till Itson's story, 266 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: because she eventually moved to a place Violand New Jersey. 267 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: Violin had at the time of reputation as a more 268 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: progressive town, at least more progressive than the average bear, 269 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: I guess. And you could wear pants. You could wear pants, 270 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: which is still so crazy, right, uh? And at that time, 271 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: apparently it was. It was considered less controversial. As a 272 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: local historian put it, the area was more tolerant of 273 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: her practice, and it was considered in its day in 274 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: the eighteen sixties, it was considered a quote hotbed of 275 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: liberal activity. But I like the idea that until Itson 276 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: was able to find a place where she could dress 277 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: and live as she wanted to live. And while some 278 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: people will say that till Itson's medical interests like the 279 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: so called water cure and stuff, well they may say 280 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: that was a little bit I don't know, quackish, or 281 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: maybe the science wasn't a million percent there. The truth 282 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: of the matter is that her contributions for bravery had 283 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: to be inspiring to so many people around the country 284 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: who probably looked at this and thought, you know, well, 285 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: why do I have to wear a dress? And that 286 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: happened in the eighteen forties, and this is you know, 287 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: it kind of pushes against the idea of America has 288 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: always been the place where where people can do what 289 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: they want and are free to live the life they live, right, 290 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's there's there's always that that duality 291 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: right of the United States, as it could be in 292 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: the United States, as individuals experience it sometimes mm hmmm. 293 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: And then you know, while we're in this period, I 294 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: propose that we we stay in this area time wise, 295 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 1: right chronologically, and then we go to another Mary. Let's 296 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: go to Dr Mary Edwards Walker. She is the first 297 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: person to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor in eighteen 298 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: sixty five for her service during the Civil War. She 299 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: didn't just wake up one day and say I'm going 300 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: to wear this pair of pants. In the late eighteen hundreds, 301 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: she started wearing clothing overwhelmingly wearing clothing that at the 302 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: time was considered clothing only for men, and this led 303 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: to her getting arrested multiple times. She has a great 304 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: quotation that our colleague Kristen Conger brought to our attention 305 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: in an article for Stuff Mom Never Told You, where 306 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: Dr Walker says, I am the original new woman. I 307 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: have prepared the way for the girl in knickerbockers is 308 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: back when people used to say knickerbockers all the time. 309 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: And Dr Walker's journey is pretty amazing. In eighteen sixty six, 310 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: she actually became president of the organization you mentioned earlier, 311 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: the National Dress Reform Association, and she was, you know, 312 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: getting arrested by these jerk police officers. She would get 313 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: ridiculed from people not just opponents of the dress reform movement, 314 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: but also people who had advocated some degree of it, 315 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: who had said, look, I just want to wear pants 316 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: walking around with a suit. That's a bit extreme, don't 317 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: you think, doctor Well, I mean that that's one of 318 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: the struggles, right, that that she and so many other 319 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: people who are looking to push society forward in a 320 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: in a way that they think would benefit more people 321 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: always struggle with right. It's it's incrementalism versus massive sweet change. 322 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: It's yeah, I get you, but do you have to 323 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: go that far? Which works for some people and doesn't 324 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: for others. A lot of people want to take that 325 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: moon shot. I guess yeah, I think I think you're 326 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: absolutely right there. Walker's story does not end entirely happily, 327 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: but it ends with a sort of prescience. So by 328 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: the time she passes away in nineteen nineteen, she has 329 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: been somewhat isolated from the larger feminist movement because she 330 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: was seeing and this comes from a great article on 331 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: weird history dot Org by R. E. Fulton. Dr. Walker 332 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: was seen as not this pioneer, not this harbinger of 333 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: a new era of equality, but she was seen more 334 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: as an eccentric and an odd duck because the people 335 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: who would have logically been her allies and her partners 336 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: in this sort of movement, we're concerned earned that her 337 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: dress was so unusual for the time that she was 338 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: weakening the the arguments that they were they were attempting 339 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: to have the changes they were attempting to make, so 340 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: they would think, you know, you're you're taking it too far. 341 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: People should wear what they want, but why are you 342 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: walking around in a top coat and a hat that 343 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: mail doctors wear, and she continued to say, well, you 344 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: know what, women being people should be able to address 345 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: however they want, work wherever they want, and you know, 346 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: do whatever they want in general. So walker story ended 347 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: with with another quote this is from were History out 348 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: a word that I thought was pretty powerful. She says, 349 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: I have got to die before people will know who 350 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: I am and what I have done. It is a 351 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: shame that people who lead reforms in this world are 352 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: not appreciated until after they are dead. Then the world 353 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: pays its tributes. And for a time, um, you know, 354 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: we said that she passed away in her name was 355 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: deleted from the Army Medal of Honor role in nine seventeen, 356 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: and it wasn't restored until nineteen seventy seven. That's really 357 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: a shame. I mean, it's a shame. For a while, 358 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: it's heartening that that her stories come back up and 359 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: resurfaced that I think, in particular, her story really underscores 360 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 1: how malleable the stories we tell as a society can be. Right. 361 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: Who we lionize, who we put on pedestals, These are 362 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: always always, always conscious choices. It's not like someone is 363 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: intrinsically a hero or not. Right, it's it's those of 364 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: us around them who tell stories about them, especially after 365 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: they're gone, and kind of what we imbue them with. Yeah, 366 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: I mean, but that's what that's why we're talking about 367 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: these women. That's why we sit in these booths and 368 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: chat about all these different figures, because it's it's really 369 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: important to kind of uncover who they are, what they 370 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: mean to the world, what they mean to societies and 371 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: cultures which can change. And also a lot of it's 372 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: really ridiculous. It's easy though, right when we are talking 373 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: about history to say this is the way things were 374 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty years ago, this is the way 375 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: It's not like that anymore. But let's let's jump ahead 376 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: a couple more decades, right, Let's let's go straight into 377 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: the twentieth century. And I'd like to talk to you 378 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: and uh and and listeners, if you haven't heard history, 379 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: it's this one, thankfully, is a little more lighthearted. There's 380 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: no um serious repercussions. But in In Night there's a 381 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: woman named Helen Huluk. She went through something really similar, 382 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, And I think a lot of times when 383 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: people think about social reformers or people who are pushing 384 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: society to move forward. They say these are professional activists 385 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: or their agitators, or like this is their primary goal 386 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: is to really disrupt. Right, But we're talking about a 387 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: kindergarten teacher and a kindergarten teacher who wasn't even pushed 388 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: into this activist role that I'm about to kind of 389 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: lay out for you. She was trying to do a 390 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: good thing. So Helen hulk l a resident, and a 391 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: lot of what we know about who Look comes from 392 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: the l A Times reporting at the time, but also 393 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: some retrospective that have been published uh in in the 394 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 1: intervening years. So who Look witnessed a burglary in her neighborhood, 395 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: and so she, as as a potential witness of a crime, 396 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: was called to court to testify against these two suspects. Right. 397 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: So she's a citizen, a kindergarten teacher, doing her civic 398 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: duty to help the victim of a crime. So she 399 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: shows up in court in downtown Los Angeles UH courtroom 400 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: run by Judge Arthur S. Garon. The thing is she 401 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:18,719 Speaker 1: is wearing blue flannel trousers and for the judge, this 402 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: is a big no no, right, right, right. The judge 403 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: is now completely distracted right from this, this entire original crime. 404 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: In his mind, there's a new crime that demands immediate attention. 405 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: And I gotta say, this guy sounds like a super curmudgeon. Yeah, 406 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: Judge Garn basically says to who, look, if you are 407 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: dressed like that in of all things trousers, you can't 408 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: testify in my court. And so he orders her to 409 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: leave and come back wearing what he says is appropriate 410 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: for the setting. You know, and this is the sort 411 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: of thing like, yeah, it's situational, yes, more a's and 412 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: standards change over time. Yes, what is acceptable to us 413 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: today may a hundred years ago look outrageous. Um, And 414 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: what people wear a hundred years from now made to 415 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 1: us look like the sort of thing you would wear 416 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: at the beach. I don't know, but um, you know, 417 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: I the the l A Times has images of miss Hulok. 418 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: These are these are just pants, They're long, they're not 419 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: particularly outrageous unless you are a judge, I suppose. And 420 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: they're not like ray Ver Jinko's or something you know 421 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: now that that truly would be an outrage. So so 422 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: he sends her home, come back, says the judge, when 423 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: you know, whatever you're wearing does not offend me. So 424 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: and she does return, doesn't she? Well, she does um 425 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: And she's quoted in the newspaper that day of saying, 426 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: you tell the judge I will stand on my rights 427 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: if he orders me to change into address, I won't 428 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: do it. I like slacks. They're comfortable. I know. I mean, 429 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: who more sensible and utilitarian than a kindergarten teacher? Right, 430 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: you were chasing five year olds all the time, Slacks 431 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: seemed like a good choice to me. The judge, for 432 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: his part, said quote, I don't set styles, but costumes 433 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: acceptable at the beach are not acceptable in formal courtroom procedure. 434 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: Slacks are not the proper attiring court. It's tough sometimes 435 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: to be a judge. Poor, poor poor judge. That's so. 436 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that has some stinky subtext, you know, like, hey, 437 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: sorry for me, guys. And I get I get the 438 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: idea that in nanny courts in the US and abroad, 439 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: there is a uh an expected level of of a 440 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: little bit of formality, right, I mean, sure, you know 441 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: it's it's courts. Like I've been to court. I dressed 442 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: up a little miser than I might otherwise because you're 443 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: a formal setting. But um yeah, I mean this wasn't 444 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: a casual outfit. And even the detectives, it's not like 445 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: they were The detectives who were investigating the crime were 446 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: the ones who brought her forth, so they didn't see 447 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: there was a problem. But the judge center Off said, 448 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: quote again, when the young woman returned, then I'll be 449 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: prepared to test just how far I can go and 450 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: maintaining the dignity in my courtroom. But who look on 451 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: on her way out, said and I'll not sacrifice my 452 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: comfort and freedom to the extent of wearing a dress. Uh. 453 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: And then the the l A Times goes on to say, 454 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: Miss Houlak retorted as she clicked out of the Hall 455 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: of Justice in her blue flannel slacks. Um, so you know, 456 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: there was a little back and forth between the two 457 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: of them, and who looks ordered to return, which she does. 458 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: She returns to court five days later when the rescheduling 459 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: has happened, And the thing is she is wearing, Ben, 460 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: can you guess what she's wearing? Uh gonna go out 461 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: on a crazy limb and say are they slacks? They 462 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: are slacks? Yes, yeah, who who look returned she's stuck 463 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: to her guns. And uh, let me just quote a 464 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: little bit from the Times. So, in a scathing denunciation 465 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: of slacks, which he prosaically termed pants as courtroom attire 466 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: for women, Garn yesterday again forbade Helen, who look kindergarten 467 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: teacher to testify as a witness while dressed in a 468 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,479 Speaker 1: green and orange leisure attire. And the paper goes on 469 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: to quote Garen again, the last time you were in 470 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: this court dressed as you are now and reclining on 471 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: your neck on the back of your chair, you drew 472 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: more attention from spectators, prisoners and court attaches than the 473 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: legal business at hand. You were requested to return and 474 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: garb acceptable to courtroom procedure. Today you come back dressed 475 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: in pants and openly defined the court and its duties 476 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: to conduct judicial proceedings. It's time a decision was reached 477 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: on this matter and on the power the court has 478 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: to maintain what it considers orderly conduct. And here's where, 479 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: here's where we get to the threat. Yeah, so he 480 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: wraps up and says, the court hereby orders and directs 481 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: you to return tomorrow in accepted dress. So this is 482 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: for the third time, the third visit. Garin says, if 483 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: you insist on wearing slacks again, you will be prevented 484 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: from testifying because that would hinder the administration of justice, 485 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: but be prepared to be punished according to law for 486 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: contempt of court. And this is not an argument that 487 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: will sound unfamiliar to many of our female listeners. Right. 488 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever been in a schoolroom 489 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: or you have any uh nieces especially who get told 490 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: their attire is too distracting in school. The boys can't 491 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: concentrate on school, right, they can't do their work because 492 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: you know, the women and their bodies are too distracting. 493 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: It puts the onus of regulating men's attention on what 494 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: women choose to air. Which that's a that's a burden 495 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: and not one that I think it's fair. But this 496 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: isn't something new. This isn't something that school kids today 497 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: are dealing with. It goes back here to the thirties 498 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: where the judge is saying, you showed up here in 499 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: your blue flannel slacks, ma'am, and it was too distracting. 500 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: The prisoners, the court attache, everyone was just looking at you. 501 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: Instead of thinking about the law, which is entirely absurd. Also, 502 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: by the way, Hulick is fantastic in interviews, and the 503 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: author of the l A Times piece is having so 504 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: much fun writing this too. The you know, sort of 505 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: vivid language that they're using heavily implies to me that 506 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: they are also on who looks side from the way 507 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,479 Speaker 1: they write. And she has this one quote where she says, listen, 508 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: I've worn slacks since I was fifteen. I don't own 509 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: address except a formal If he wants me to appear 510 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: in a formal gown, that's okay with me. I'll come 511 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: back and slacks. And if he puts me in jail, 512 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: I hope it will help to free women forever of 513 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: anti slackis um. I love that. Yeah, anti slackism. Yeah, 514 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: it's it's on its surface ridiculous, but is entirely the point. Right, 515 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,959 Speaker 1: And there's one crucial piece that we we should make 516 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: sure to hit. In all of the cases we've discussed, 517 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: when these people have been arrested, it was not uncommon 518 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: for them to be forced to put on her dress 519 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: in jail or in prison. Right, Yeah, you got to prison, 520 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: you put on whatever the prison tells you to put 521 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: on and that's what happened to Hulok. Right, So she 522 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: showed up the third day after the judge said please 523 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: come back, and she was again wearing slacks. So yeah, 524 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: at this point there is a little bit of contrarianism, 525 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: but it's in who looks defense, uh, not illegal in 526 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: any way there are Again, this is a situation where 527 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: there are no laws preventing the wearing the explicit wearing 528 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: of trousers or slacks. This reveals a lot more about 529 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: garin where he just feels the propriety of his courtroom 530 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: has been violated. And so when Huluk is arrested, it's 531 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: not explicitly for wearing slacks. She is arrested for contempt 532 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: of court. And let's take a second there, because contempt 533 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: of court, which is a fairly familiar phrase, I think 534 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: to anyone, even if you don't have a lot of 535 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: legal experience, you've heard that phrase being used. Yeah, Casey, 536 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: you've heard that, right of course. For more Casey, have 537 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: you ever held someone in contempt on this show? Oh, 538 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to plead the fifth on that one. 539 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: Would would that be like contempt of producer? Yes? Yeah, 540 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: I've seen the way he's raised eyebrows through that window. 541 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: We've gotten close. We've gotten close and sometimes you know, uh, 542 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: it's a it's a very close working relationship. And I'm 543 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: not gonna lie, man, there's we've been a logger heads before, 544 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, we have. We have different opinions, but I 545 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: like to think at the end of the day, there's 546 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: some there's some mutual respect. Where am I going with us? No, Casey, 547 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: like barely? How about Ben? Now you're starting to get 548 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: to like contempt of sitting co host. Let me let 549 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: me just say, can I be the one to say? 550 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: Please Casey on the case? Hey, So, contempt of court 551 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: in in actual courtroom proceedings is pretty broad. All contempt 552 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: of court really means is that you have been seen 553 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: or someone some individual has been seen as being disobedient 554 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:43,399 Speaker 1: or somehow disrespectful towards the court and its officers, even 555 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: as loose as define the authority, or somehow offending the 556 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: dignity of court. So people can be held in contempt 557 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: for any number of things, right, speaking out of turn, 558 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: very loudly, insisting on that being combat out of with 559 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: the judge, things like that. Right, this contempt charge comes 560 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: about because, as you said, Christopher, it's not really, it's 561 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: not against the law for people who wear pants. So 562 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: the story of Houlik and the trousers in the courtroom 563 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: almost ends there. She serves her five days in prison, 564 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: and a couple of months later comes back finally to 565 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: testify as to what she witnessed in this burglary. Remember 566 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: that's the original reason she was in court was to 567 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: help out a fellow citizen. Um she volunteered to come 568 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: as a witness. Yeah, But at the time when she 569 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: came back a couple of months later, basically I think 570 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: she felt her point had been made, and she did 571 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: arrive in address. So I couldn't find anything in the 572 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: Times where she was quoted as to this. But maybe 573 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: I'm speculating here that she she felt, Okay, now I'm 574 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: I am here in court too, really or of a 575 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: civic purpose, and perhaps at the moment my anti slacktivist 576 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: pushback is getting in the way of doing that. I see, 577 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 1: I see your point there. It also didn't hurt that 578 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: hundreds of people wrote to the courthouse protesting the treatment 579 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: of Helen Hulick, and eventually this led to well, this 580 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: played a role in the judge's contempt ruling being overturned 581 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 1: or is contempt citation? Yeah, so she she did have 582 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: to serve some time, but you know, an official record 583 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: expunged and all that. Yeah, yeah, and what what style? 584 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: I just I love the way Elen hulik Is is 585 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,439 Speaker 1: talking to reporters this entire time. We've got the Los 586 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: Angeles Times articles from the time, and in addition to 587 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: those great quotes which you've been so ably worked your 588 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: way through, we've also got images of Hulk, so you 589 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: can judge for yourself how outrageous is this outfit. Will 590 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: post a link to that on Ridiculous Historians, the Facebook 591 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: group for for folks who are enjoying the show. You 592 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: can find lots of other like minded people and um 593 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: all sorts of ancillary stuff about about these things. But Ben, yes, 594 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: I've told you two stories. You've told me one that's true. 595 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: I have one more, and I think you're going to 596 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,760 Speaker 1: like it. This is the story of Emma snod Grass. 597 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: So she became when she was only seventeen years old, 598 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 1: huge news story throughout the United States because despite being 599 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: arrested multiple times in Boston for wearing pants, she persisted 600 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: She continued to do that, and her father was an 601 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: official with the New York City Police. Each time she 602 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: was arrested, she would be forced to you know, put 603 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: on address, and then she would be returned to New 604 00:38:55,120 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: York from Boston. Quote properly attired. But then fast forward 605 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: a few weeks, she's right back. She's taking further wearing 606 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: a frock coat, glazed cap, striped pantaloons and so on. 607 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: And uh, someone quoted, I think this was the Boston 608 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,439 Speaker 1: Harold said, has the appearance of a quite a good 609 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: looking young man, and the Boston Harold had been reporting 610 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 1: on her multiple times. They also said that she would 611 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: be acting in what they felt was manner most appropriate 612 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: for young ne'er do wells. They said she quote used 613 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: to circulate in all the drinking houses, made several violent 614 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: attempts to talk horse that's some slang we missed, and 615 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: do other things for which quote unquote fast boys are noted. 616 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: She had called herself George Green and gotten a job 617 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: at a clothing store in New York. She was arrested there, 618 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: and each time she was arrested, they you know, make 619 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: her take off the clothes she's comfortable with put on 620 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: a dress and then they send her back to her dad. 621 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 1: I think it's because he is in law enforcement that 622 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: she is not having to deal with some of the 623 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: same treatment, or the same level of treatment that a 624 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: lot of other people in her situation had. So Snodgrass though, 625 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,720 Speaker 1: I mean her story, we're back in the eighteen fifties 626 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: for this, right. Oh yes, that's absolutely correct. Uh, she 627 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: was really making headlines in eighteen fifty two or so. 628 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: I still am. I am curious about what talking horse is. 629 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: I imagine it's it's a talking smack. I don't know, 630 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: talking horse. Uh yeah, just maybe maybe um rough talk, 631 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,320 Speaker 1: boys talk or something like that. I don't know. Well, 632 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: it's funny. One thing in that that newspaper that you 633 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: quoted about her appearance. Another thing that they used to 634 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: describe her. They said, quote, she is a practical woman's 635 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: rights girl, as though you know, and you know what 636 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: that means, you know, basically just capital w capital our 637 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: woman's rights and oh goodness, yea. The fragility of like 638 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: that patriarchy really exposes itself when you're so threatened by 639 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: a woman who's choosing to wear pants, but to the 640 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: point where she's arrested and it's it's tricky. Um. Also 641 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: the condescension that is just dripping off that phrase and 642 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: the pearl clutching, you know. It's. Yeah, this story is 643 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: important because it encounters some other larger problematic things about 644 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: the US of that time, you know, that remain problematic 645 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: in the modern day. Uh, you know, the idea of 646 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: how someone wishes to identify as an individual. Right, going 647 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: back to Dr Walker's thing, Um, maybe people should do 648 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: what they want where what they want. You know. She 649 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 1: had also been continually sort of rebelling against her father, 650 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,280 Speaker 1: who was either a captain or assistant captain in New York. 651 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: When she was released to her father's recognianance, one time, 652 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: she just high tailed it back to Boston. She was 653 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: dressed in what were items of traditional women's clothing, and 654 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 1: she went to a place called the Washington Coffee House, 655 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: where she had rented a room. She left the place 656 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: in women's clothes, according to one report, but returned wearing 657 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 1: clothes that would be traditionally associated with dudes. I think 658 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: every time somebody gave her these you know, ridiculous charges 659 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 1: or arrest it sort of inspired her to double down. 660 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: You know what I mean, Well, I mean what I 661 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: what I think it's just really fun about Um the 662 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 1: Emma Snodgrass story is that, so she's a teenager, right, 663 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: show me a teenager who's not doing rebellious things in 664 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: the context of a society or a family. So you 665 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: can you can look at this story as just sort 666 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: of the antics of a of a teenaged person, which 667 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: is often celebrated when it's a young boy or a 668 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: teenage guy. Right. So we look at people like Huckleberry Finn, 669 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: for instance, if we're talking similar time frames, who is 670 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: really celebrated for thumbing his nose at societal rules and 671 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: doing what he thinks is best and living the life 672 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: he wants to live in that sort of American folk 673 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,760 Speaker 1: hero way. But the ability to operate in that mode 674 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 1: is often extended only to men, right. And so especially 675 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: with Emma Snodgrass, some of what we've talked about today 676 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: dealt primarily with dress and just fashion, but Um Snodgrass 677 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: and and her case really it veers not only into 678 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,920 Speaker 1: dress but also action and what's appropriate for one gender, 679 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 1: what's the way to behave That's something that I think 680 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 1: it illustrates really well that situations like this where we're 681 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: policing dress and what's appropriate. It runs the gamut, and 682 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: and there's so so much crossover and so many is 683 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: some's made on the parts of the authorities about you know, 684 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: what could be a slippery slope for instance, Yeah, exactly. 685 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: And this slippery slope fear can so often be trotted 686 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 1: out when people don't have a otherwise valid reason for 687 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,720 Speaker 1: their problem. Okay, this is a terrible example vaguely related. 688 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: It's it's similar to the situations wherein every year two 689 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 1: in the US, there's going to be a usually a politician, 690 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,320 Speaker 1: one strip or another who says A and B and 691 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,839 Speaker 1: C is going wrong. Things are really going terribly And 692 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: part of that is because people are saying happy Holidays 693 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: instead of Merry Christmas. And it's a slippery slope that 694 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: will lead us on the road to ruin. You know 695 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: what I mean, we will we will say happy holidays 696 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: one week, next week, dogs and cats sleeping together. We're 697 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: on the path paved with good intentions. St too inferno. 698 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: And it's weird because that kind of escalation of an argument, 699 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: at least as it's applied to you know, some of 700 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: the fragile, masculine patriarchs of the day. Here, it seems 701 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: silly when we look back with the benefit of retrospect, 702 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: but we also have to remember as ridiculous as these 703 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: forces were when they were persecuting these people, they were 704 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: really messing with, in some cases, ruining these people's lives. 705 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, it's no light thing to go to jail. 706 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: It's no. Yeah, it's not something a lot of people 707 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: do for fun, right. Most people, uh, if they want 708 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: to go somewhere for a weekend, will probably choose like 709 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 1: the beach or the mountains. Yeah, And there are plenty 710 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: of ways we can draw lines from what was going 711 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: on in the forties, fifties, and sixties, and in the 712 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: hula case in the thirties, all the way up to 713 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: today in in other countries and other societies that you know, 714 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: maybe have more restrictive traditions of what women wear. But 715 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: even today, people make assumptions based on what they think 716 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,840 Speaker 1: a person should be wearing, or based on what they're wearing, 717 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,320 Speaker 1: make assumptions about the kind of person they are or 718 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: the kind of threat they pose. And the authorities can 719 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: act in one way, individuals can act in another. It's 720 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: ridiculous to talk about some of these things as being 721 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,399 Speaker 1: kind of lighthearted and silly, but they have real ramifications 722 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: in both a historical and contemporary context. And I'd like 723 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 1: to save a little bit of Emma Snodgrass's story for 724 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,800 Speaker 1: another day, because I think we could make her life 725 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: story its own episode. What do you say, She's a 726 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,439 Speaker 1: she's a solid case. There's there's a lot to dig 727 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: into with with Snodgrass. So that is just the beginning 728 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: of the snod Grass story. And that is the conclusion 729 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:54,799 Speaker 1: of today's episode, but not our show. You can find Casey, Noel, Christopher, 730 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,359 Speaker 1: some of our other guests and I on this show 731 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,920 Speaker 1: twice a week until Big Plaid shuts us down. I 732 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: can't believe you brought that back. Uh. And in the meantime, 733 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,360 Speaker 1: I like to thank you so much for joining us today, 734 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: Christopher haciotas dude, thanks for coming back on the show. 735 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: You know you always you always sound a little bit 736 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: irritated with us, but you keep returning do I? Oh, 737 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,440 Speaker 1: I don't mean to. I look, I I just wanted to, somehow, 738 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: some way get on a podcast and talk about the 739 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 1: Museum of the American house Cat, which I did at 740 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: the beginning of this episode and I'm doing again now. 741 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,360 Speaker 1: And if I had to go through the uh the 742 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: rigamar role of learning and really digging into some really 743 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: cool history and sharing it with you, Ben and the 744 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,400 Speaker 1: rest of you ridiculous historians. I'm only happy well said, 745 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: well said, so thank you. Likewise, Christopher, it's always it's 746 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: always a pleasure. Every time you are on the show 747 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: and one of us is abroad or traveling, the person 748 00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: who missed out gets just a tinge of envy because, 749 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,879 Speaker 1: as you know, our partner got to hang out with you, 750 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,720 Speaker 1: which is it's kind of a big deal between Nolan. 751 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be honest, let's all get together. Then 752 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: sometimes yeah, let's all get together. Let's get the band 753 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: back together. So, as Christopher pointed out, we are all 754 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: over the internet. You can find us some ridiculous historians 755 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,239 Speaker 1: of Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you can 756 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,279 Speaker 1: find us on Instagram. We've often started wrapping up the 757 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:30,400 Speaker 1: show with questions, what are some other pioneering people in 758 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: this in this same kind of thematic sphere, What are 759 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: something that you know of that you think your fellow 760 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,520 Speaker 1: listeners would enjoy learning more about, Because again, we can 761 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: look back in this in and say, regardless of what 762 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,920 Speaker 1: year it is, there's so many other crazy things wrong 763 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: with the world. Why would you care that someone decided 764 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: to wear pants? You know what I mean. But we 765 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 1: have to remember these these kinds of battles, their heart won, 766 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,560 Speaker 1: and they make a difference. They make a tremendous impact 767 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,120 Speaker 1: on the world in which we live today. Then I 768 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,839 Speaker 1: totally agree with you. And as we wrap up, as 769 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: we both stand up, I don't care if you're wearing 770 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: pants or not. Okay, well you might. You might want 771 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 1: to leave before me then, because it was yeah, all right, 772 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,720 Speaker 1: I'm out of here. We'll see you next time, folks. 773 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:27,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I 774 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 775 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.