1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. The top 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: of this one is silly, which is good because it's 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: not all silly and we need a little but a 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: few weeks back, my husband and I went to Chicago 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: to meet up with some friends. This was kind of 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: in that magical calendar window where we were all vaccinated 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: and the delta variant had not had its big surge yet, 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: and we were trying to celebrate some stuff that we 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: didn't get to do during uh, you know, the more 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: everybody stay in their house parts of the pandemic. And 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: one of the things we did during that trip was 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: visit the Art Institute of Chicago. And my beloved had 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: this list of art pieces that he wanted to see, 16 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: which is unusual for him, like he likes art, but 17 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: he doesn't have that like I gotta see this artist 18 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: I got. He's more like, let's wander around and see 19 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: what we like. And I it took me a little 20 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: while to realize what he was doing and how he 21 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: had selected the pieces that he wanted to see, and 22 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: then I realized, honey, are we doing Ferris Bueller right now? 23 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: And he was like, yes, we are, awesome. So he 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: had made a list of all of the pieces of 25 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: art from that section of the movie where they're at 26 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: the art Institute, and he had even told my best friend, 27 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: because she lives outside Chicago and knows where everything isn't 28 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: that museum, and it just cracked me up. That's hilarious. 29 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: That's maybe the lightest part of this episode, because one 30 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: of those paintings was, of course Edward Hopper's Nighthawks, which 31 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: is famous, and we went and looked at it, and 32 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: it reminded me that Hopper has been on my list 33 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: as a potential podcast topic for a very long time. Well, 34 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: as I started my research, I realized that the episode 35 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: that I really wanted to do was actually about his wife, 36 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: Josephine Nivison. She he was an artist as well, but 37 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: her art career kind of gets pretty murky to the 38 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: point I'm almost vanishing after the two became a couple, 39 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: and that story is kind of a Pandora's Box situation. 40 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: Their relationship is often discussed in these really romantic terms 41 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: as like this great artistic collaboration and they did collaborate, 42 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: but it was not a great situation. So apologies upfront 43 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: because this is a bummer episode for a few reasons. 44 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: And one of those reasons is that we have to 45 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: give a warning here that we were going to be 46 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: talking about domestic violence. That is a hard topic. So 47 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: do whatever you need to do as a listener, jump 48 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: over this one if you need to. Uh. It also 49 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: may change sure feelings about Edward Hopper's work if you 50 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: love it, so fair warning. Josephine Versteel Nivison was born 51 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,399 Speaker 1: on March eighteenth, eight three in New York City. Their 52 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: home life was pretty unconventional sometimes it's described as even chaotic. 53 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: Her mother, Mary Anne, didn't really believe even rules, and 54 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: her father, El Dorado, was a struggling musician and a 55 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: music teacher. He was similarly inclined to having this really 56 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: unstructured parenting style. The Nificence also moved a lot because 57 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: their finances were just pretty thin all the time. Yeah. 58 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: In one account, she also mentioned that her father had 59 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: some anger issues as well, so it really was very chaotic. 60 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: And Josephine was the second of three children. She had 61 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: an older brother who died when they were still really 62 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: just kids, and then a younger brother named Charles, when 63 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: the family's only daughter was headstrong from infancy, it seemed. 64 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: And at one point when a family friend was visiting 65 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: when she was like just a year and a half old, 66 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: and this family friend told Marianne that she really was 67 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: going to need to curtail Josephine's temper. Mary Anne responded, quote, 68 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: I'll do nothing of the sort. She may need it sometime. 69 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: Josephine loved books as a child, but because she lived 70 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: this sort of surreal and un able home life, the 71 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: worlds that were in those books became her reality in 72 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. This was so much so that 73 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: she later said, quote, what a shock for me to 74 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: find out life is not like books. I who had 75 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: done Shakespeare at ten and loved ideas for themselves with 76 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: no background for digestions, so ideas stayed ideas and fastened 77 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: themselves to my backbone. When Josephine, who went by Joe, 78 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: was seventeen, she enrolled in Normal College of New York 79 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: that is now Hunter College. It's part of the City 80 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: University of New York system. And this was kind of 81 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: intended to put Joe on a career path as a teacher. 82 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: That was what Normal College, within all women's student body, 83 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: specialized in. She studied literature and drama, as well as 84 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: French and Latin, but art was already an important part 85 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: of her life. She had some of her drawings published 86 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: in the school's yearbook, The Wistarian and the school paper, 87 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: which was called The Echo. After she finished at Normal 88 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: School with her bachelor's degree, o moved not into teaching 89 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: but to the New York School of Art. There she 90 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: met Robert Henry, who became her teacher and mentor. In 91 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: Henry painted a portrait of her. And this is a 92 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: life sized portrait. It's titled The Art Student and it 93 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: shows twenty two year old Nivison in full figure. She's 94 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: standing with her body facing slightly to the left of 95 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: the painting, but her gaze is squarely on the viewer. 96 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: She's wearing what looks like a red floral dress with 97 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: a white lace collar. We only see a little bit 98 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: of it, and most of her figure is covered by 99 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: a black smock. Her left arm, which is dangling in 100 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: front of her, ends in a hand holding multiple artist brushes. 101 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: This painting was made around the same time Josephine would 102 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: have met her future husband, although the two of them 103 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: didn't connect romantically until much later. Henry wrote about the 104 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: moment that he was inspired to paint Joe's portrait, saying, quote, 105 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: she was standing in her old paints battered April at 106 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: the close of the lesson, with her paint brushes clutched 107 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: firmly in her little fist, listening to a conversation. She 108 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: seemed a little human question mark, and everything about her, 109 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: even the line of the dress, suggested the idea. I 110 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: wanted to paint her just as she was, and I 111 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: asked her to pose for me the next day. I 112 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: was afraid she couldn't assume the same pose and the 113 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: same look, But it happened that as she entered my 114 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: studio she fell into the same energetic, questioning attitude. I 115 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: had to paint very rapidly to get it. After Nivison 116 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: graduated from art school, she managed to make a living 117 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: as an artist, She said, Okay, she sold drawings to 118 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: various periodicals to make ends meet. That included the Evening 119 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: Post in the New York Tribune. She also taught art 120 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: and elementary schools, and that's a job that she held 121 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: for years. Yeah, she had more than a decade of 122 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: teaching experience in her life. But though she was teaching 123 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: kids the basics by day and how to express themselves 124 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: in her spare time, she was engaging with the avant 125 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: garde art scene in New York and specifically in Greenwich Village, 126 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: and she was into the arts beyond her painting, though 127 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: she also danced, and she eventually started appearing in plays 128 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: with the Washington Square Players. She also continued to be 129 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: mentored as an artist by Robert Henry, and in seven 130 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: she went to Holland to take landscape and portrait painting 131 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: classes that he was teaching there. She also went to 132 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: Paris and Italy on that trip, and the artwork she 133 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: saw in Europe really opened her eyes to the world 134 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: of modern art. Up to the age of thirty, Joe 135 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: continued to live at home, but in nineteen o nine, 136 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: when she was still in her late twenties, her father died, 137 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: and then her mother and brother moved to Rhode Island. 138 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: A few years later to live with her mother's sisters. 139 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: Joe at this point chose to stay in New York. 140 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: She loved New York and would later say in her 141 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: life like it was such a happy accident that she 142 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: an artist, got to be born in New York and 143 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: didn't have to fight her way there uh and she 144 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: lived with a non family roommate for the first time 145 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: her life. She seems to have been pretty happy during 146 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: this time. She was outgoing, she had a circle of 147 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: friends in the art community, but though she was very 148 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: progressive and really quite liberal in her views, she was 149 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: behaviorally quite conservative. She was not a party girl by 150 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: any means. She didn't drink, she didn't have any serious 151 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: romantic relationships, and when she had friends over for parties 152 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: she served tea instead of cocktails. She had her first 153 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: group show at the age of thirty one. That was 154 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: in nineteen fourteen, and this was no small affair in 155 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: terms of historical art placement. Alongside her work were pieces 156 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: by man Ray and William Zorak, as well as others. 157 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: She spent the second half of the nineteen teens teaching, 158 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: appearing on stage, and then in nineteen eighteen volunteering for 159 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: the Red Cross. She was shipped off to France, where 160 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: she was assigned to work in occupational therapy and the 161 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: hospital at baudas Are, but she got severe bronchitis and 162 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: was admitted to the hospital as a patient not long 163 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: after she arrived in late nineteen eighteen. By the end 164 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: of January nineteen nineteen, she was back in New York 165 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: for recovery, and after several weeks she was deemed unfit 166 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: to return to work in France. She had also during 167 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: this time lost her teaching job. She had taken a 168 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: leave of absence so she could do that Red Cross work, 169 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: but the Board of Education did not hold her job 170 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: for her, and so soon she was scrambling to make 171 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: ends meet. I have to wonder if some of this 172 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: isn't a calendar logistics issue, Like they're like, we didn't 173 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: know you were coming right back um where she was 174 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: expected to be gone for quite a while. So she 175 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: ended up having to move into a very tiny, cold 176 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: studio uh and managed to get some showings at a 177 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: bookshop in the Yale Club Building called Sunwise Turn. In 178 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenty New York Telephone Directory, Joe opted to 179 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: list her profession as artist. She also fibbed about her 180 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: age in the census that year. She shaved seven years 181 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: off to claim that she was twenty nine. She also 182 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: took another teaching job. She helped keep sick children at 183 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: Willard Parker Hospital up to date on their schoolwork. Unfortunately, though, 184 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: she caught diphtheria and that continued to affect her health 185 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: well into the summer. Joe moved into a new studio. 186 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: This was a fourth floor place with no bathroom in 187 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: the Vanderbilt Studios, and immediately she started showing her work. 188 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: They're kind of mounting her own mini shows, and she 189 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: also adopted a streetcat named Arthur during this time. Also 190 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: marked this really financially astute move on Nivisson's part. She 191 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: had thought and made this case that she had not 192 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: been told about the potential health risks of her teaching 193 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: assignment at the hospital's Ward School, and she ended up 194 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: negotiating for early retirement with lifetime disability pay at her 195 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: existing salary of seventeen hundred fifty dollars a year, because 196 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: she did have ongoing effects from that illness. But this 197 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: negotiation she did meant that she could just focus on 198 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: her art and not worry instantly about money, and that 199 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: included getting to make summer visits to artist colonies. In 200 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: Nevison's watercolors were included at a showing new gallery with 201 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: several other prominent artists once again, William zax work was 202 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: alongside hers, as well as paintings by Magret, Picasso and Modiliani. 203 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: She showed there again in the spring with two watercolors, 204 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: and her finances were pretty secure. Her art career was 205 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: really starting to gain some momentum. So coming up, we'll 206 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: talk about Joe and Edward Hopper becoming a couple. But 207 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: before we do, let's pause for a word from our sponsors. 208 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: In three, Josephine and Edward re met. We say that 209 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: because they had met several times before. They first met 210 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: in art school, as we mentioned earlier, and then they 211 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: had run into each other on Cape cod at various 212 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: artists other ring some of these summer retreats that she 213 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: had started going to. She really only remembered that on 214 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: a previous meeting she was kind of bummed that he 215 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: didn't dance, because she thought he had great dancing legs 216 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: and she loved to dance. She also had at least 217 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: some social interaction with him in New York, although it's 218 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: a little unclear exactly how well the two knew each 219 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: other before nine three, although they did both have art 220 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: in the same show in late nineteen two at the 221 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: benemez own gallery of decorative Arts, so their paths crossed repeatedly. 222 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: And to look at the people they were at this 223 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: point in nineteen twenty three, where they meet up in 224 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: a more permanent sort of way, you would think that 225 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: Joe Nivison would become the famous one and Edward Hopper 226 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: would be more likely to recede into the background of 227 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:50,119 Speaker 1: art history. Joe had started visiting artist colonies during the summers, 228 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: usually in New England, and it was at one of 229 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: these colonies in Gloucester, Massachusetts, that she ran into Edward 230 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: Hopper in the summer of nineteen twenty three. At that point, 231 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: Hopper was making his living doing etchings. He considered himself 232 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: an illustrator rather than a painter. The first words that 233 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: he said to her at the colony were apparently, hey, 234 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: I saw your cat yesterday. Because Arthur always traveled with Joe. 235 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: She really really loved that cat. While the two of 236 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: them had not particularly sparked earlier in their lives in 237 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: any kind of way, meeting in their forties at this 238 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: point their early forties, for both of them, they became 239 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: very close friends, and they started working on their art 240 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: next to one another and Joe's work in watercolor, and 241 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: some uh you know, kind of prodding on her part 242 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: and encouragement led Ed to also start working in the 243 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: same medium. They went on dates, and they grew closer 244 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: and closer, making something of an odd couple because Ed 245 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: was quite tall and Joe was very petite. And when 246 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: they returned to New York the romance continued. They started, 247 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: among other things, to visit a Chinese restaurant that would 248 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: later be featured in Hopper's now famous painting Chop. Suey 249 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: hop For wrote Joe notes in French, which was a 250 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: language they would use together for the rest of their lives. 251 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: And the autumn of nineteen twenty three, which followed the 252 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: summer where the two artists had reconnected, Josephine had six 253 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: of her watercolor paintings accepted into a show at the 254 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: Brooklyn Museum. That show included painters like John Singer Sergeant 255 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: and Georgia O'Keeffe. When she and Ed became reacquainted, he 256 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: had last sold a painting in nineteen thirteen, and so 257 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: here it was a decade later. Nivison decided to help 258 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: him by putting in a good word for him with 259 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: the museum, and they included six watercolors he had produced 260 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: while working with her in Gloucester, and they bought one 261 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: of his paintings. Critics really raved over Ed's pieces, and 262 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: bullied by this validation, Edward decided he was going to 263 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: pursue painting in earnest and taper off of his work 264 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: as an illustrator. In the summer of nine four, Joe 265 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: and Ed went back to the Gloucester Art Colony where 266 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: they had reconnected, and this time they went as new weds. 267 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: There had been no engagement. The pair had a fight 268 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: on July nine over whether they would go to Gloucester, 269 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: which was Ed's choice, or to Cape Cod, where Joe 270 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: wanted to go, and this argument ended with an agreement 271 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: that they would go to Gloucester and that they would 272 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: get married that day. So they hastily grabbed a friend 273 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: to be best man, and they went in search of 274 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: a minister who would perform the ceremony. That took a while. 275 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: They got turned down by a few because Ed was 276 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: apparently kind of kg whenever any of them asked about 277 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: their denomination. But by the end of the day they 278 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: were married, and so their trip to Gloucester that year 279 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: to paint was their honeymoon. This is such a weird 280 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: resolution to this argument to me, right, Like, it's one 281 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: of those things where the person who's like, they're really 282 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: their primary biographer in terms of covering their relationship and 283 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: not Hopper. It's like, you know, their reasons and their 284 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: logic for this whole thing was their own. They never 285 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: explained it to anybody, And I'm like, I got married 286 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: very quickly. This is a little Red Flagg to me. Yeah, yeah, 287 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: it's definitely not a compromise to go from either Gloucester 288 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: or Cape Cod too Gloucester. And also we're getting married 289 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: right this minute, Like yeah, so anyway, Um, They're often 290 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: described as having an artistic partnership with Joe as Ed's muse, 291 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: but this relationship was, by almost any standard, just very 292 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: very unhealthy. Joe and Ed Hopper seemed devoted to each 293 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: other in some ways, and particularly very publicly, but they 294 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: were also constantly locked in battle, and that battle often 295 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: turns to physical violence. From the very beginning of their marriage, 296 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: it seemed, going by Joe's journals, that Edward was just 297 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: dissatisfied with their roles. He had married a woman who 298 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: was finding some success in art. She was very independent, 299 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: and what he wanted was a housewife who had no 300 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: interests outside of pleasing him. And Joe realized that she 301 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: had married a man who would not ever want to 302 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: have a social life with anyone else, and that was 303 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: one of her great pleasures. Joe was also not particularly 304 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: inclined towards domesticity, as you'll recall, even in her own family, 305 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: the setup had been anything but traditional, So to suddenly 306 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: be expected to just cook and care for a man 307 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: who wanted a wife to be a domestic servant, that 308 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: was completely unexpected for her. She kept house but cooking 309 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: was just not happening. No, It appears in that argument 310 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: resolution of let's get married, they never had the what 311 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: do you want out of marriage discussion. Edward was also 312 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: jealous of Arthur and that she loved this cat so much. 313 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: He drew caricatures showing this jealousy. Arthur is depicted as 314 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: Joe's true love while ed waits on the floor for scraps. 315 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: Joe actually maintained her own studio space away from Edward 316 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: in the beginning of their marriage, in part just so 317 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: that she could keep Edward and Arthur apart, and it 318 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: was there that she would meet up with friends, never 319 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: at ed studio. In her journals, Joe wrote accounts about 320 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: their sex life that are just heartbreaking. They depict a 321 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: sexual mismatch that led to what amounts to assault on 322 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: her husband's part. According to her own account, she had 323 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: no real sexual experience when the two of them got married, 324 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: and she found that quote, the whole thing was entirely 325 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: for him, for his benefit. According to her journal, he 326 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: forbade her from speaking with other women about sex, so 327 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: she felt what she called subnormal, and she resigned herself 328 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: to not enjoying their sex life. She wrote, quote, I declared, 329 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: since that was the status quo of that, let him 330 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: have it all. I withdrew all my interests there was 331 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: my body. Let him take it. But I'd not consent 332 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: to be hurt too much, only a certain amount. Then 333 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: he set forth to build up, as neat, a little 334 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: job of inferiority complex for which I and my ignorance 335 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: was eligible. For Ed's part, he drew cartoons of himself 336 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: as the unfortunate husband of a frigid wife, vowing deeply 337 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,959 Speaker 1: to Joe from the end of the bed while she 338 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: reads a book disinterested it makes me so sad, she 339 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: writes about herself, like in that hole. He doesn't want 340 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: her to talk to other people. Her logic is that 341 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: he is too embarrassed for other people to know that 342 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: he got a lemon. Just such a sad way to 343 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: perceive that whole situation for her, it breaks my heart. Uh. 344 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: The year the Hoppers married, Joe was invited to show 345 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 1: several of her pieces in Paris, and Edward also had 346 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: his first solo show that year at the gallery of 347 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: Frank km Wren. There were sixteen pieces of Ed's paintings included, 348 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: and they all sold. Wren represented Hopper for the rest 349 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: of his life. Joe's identity shifted significantly with her marriage 350 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: to Hopper, and in some ways that was slowly. In 351 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: other ways the changes were very a erupt A year 352 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: after they got married, Arthur had disappeared. An exhaustive search 353 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: for him had proved fruitless, so she gave up her studio. 354 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: She moved everything into the same space that Edward was 355 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: using because his career was on the rise, he needed 356 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: all the space that he had, so her paintings went 357 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: into basement storage when she finished them, along with most 358 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: of the items that she had moved with. It's really 359 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: almost the perfect metaphor for her identity as her own person. 360 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: During this time, she seemed to put herself away to 361 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: just live in Ed's world. When visitors came to the studio, 362 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: she wasn't allowed to show them what she had been 363 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: working on. Things were not all gloom. The two traveled 364 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: to Santa Fe in lieu of a New England summer trip. 365 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: Hopper didn't really find much inspiration in the US Southwest, 366 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: but he did have Joe pose for him for the 367 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: painting interior, which was later called model reading. If you 368 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 1: look for his paintings under the interior, you will get 369 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of them, So nowadays it's kind of usually 370 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: said interior with model reading in parenthesis after it. And 371 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: this was the start of a dynamic of their relationship 372 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: that would become very important to both of them over 373 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: the years. Uh They also socialized during this trip, which 374 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: was a lot of fun for Joe, and while it 375 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: wasn't always smooth, it does seem like overall they both 376 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. They had several similar trips throughout their marriage. 377 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: When they returned home, Ed turned in his last illustration 378 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: work and he was at that point officially exclusively a painter, 379 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: and although he was really starting to do well selling 380 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: his paintings, the Hoppers did not live extravagantly in the least. 381 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: Their Washington Square studio was on the top floor of 382 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: a building, and it was really rudimentary as a living space. 383 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: It had a skylight that made it a good workspace 384 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: for art, but in terms of other stuff, there was 385 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: no refrigerator, no toilet. They had to haul coal up 386 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: the stair to the fourth floor where they were to 387 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: have heat. The life that they lived there was also 388 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: not exactly filled with social activities. Most of their time 389 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: was spent alone, just the two of them in this 390 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: small space, eating their meals out of cans, and then 391 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: just growing increasingly irritated with one another. I feel like 392 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: this living set up without the context of their like 393 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,479 Speaker 1: their their relationship issues there that were already having, like 394 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: that small of a space with two people in it, 395 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 1: and those meager circuits like that would have probably bread 396 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: some frustrations in the best of circumstances. Well, And it's 397 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: one of those things too, where they had both been 398 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: living on their own for so long, like they were 399 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: both in their forties when they got married, So to 400 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: suddenly like, I share everything with you would have been 401 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,479 Speaker 1: an adjustment, like you said, even if everything about their 402 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: relationship was perfect other than that, and then in this 403 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: like to be packed in a little tiny space together 404 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: not good. In Nix, Joe had her first showing under 405 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: the name Josephine Hopper at the Whitney Museum. She had 406 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: another showing at the Whitney Studio Club the next year, 407 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: and one of the watercolors that she showed there was 408 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: called movie Theater. That same year, Ed painted a piece 409 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: called two on the Aisle that was the first of 410 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: his movie theater paintings, a theme for which he would 411 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: become famous. And it kind of seems like he got 412 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: the idea from her. While she continued to paints, it 413 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: fell off in frequency. At one point she wrote in 414 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: her diary quote, why don't I paints? Why? Indeed? On what? From? 415 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: Out of what inner gladness? Ed's career was prioritized always 416 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: he drew a literal line in their studio that she 417 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: was not allowed to cross, and unlike in that nineteen 418 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: three summer where they had worked side by side, she 419 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: was not supposed to come near him while he worked 420 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: his supplies were for him and him alone. There was 421 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: a very obvious jealousy and competitiveness in his behavior. If 422 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: she started to paint when he hadn't been feeling like it, 423 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: he had to jump up and paint yeah. As Hopper's 424 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: career began to release Skyrocket in his mid forties, Josephine, 425 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: who had made the introductions around the art world that 426 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: made that rise possible, started to manage all of the 427 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: administrative duties of his work. She continued to reach out 428 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: to art dealers on his behalf, kind of working as 429 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: his agent for any sales he was making outside of 430 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: that gallery arrangement he had, and she also managed his schedule. 431 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: If he had an exhibit, it was her job to 432 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: make sure the lighting and the placement of the art 433 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: was correct, and it was also her job to address 434 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: and deflect negative criticism. She seems to recognize Ed's future 435 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: importance in the place of US art history, and she 436 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: documented his work both as a matter of bookkeeping and 437 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: just to have a really thorough record. As he completed paintings, 438 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: she entered each one into a detailed log. She kept 439 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: an account book that described the work and included all 440 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: the relevant data about it the date that it was 441 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: started and completed, the arrangements of any loan outs that 442 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: may have Sometimes Hopper would write the paintings titles in 443 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: the book, but Joe would always annotate it with a 444 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: description of the image to make it clear what the 445 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: painting actually was. She was also pretty aware that as 446 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: her husband had found his footing as an artist and 447 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: made a name for himself in his career, that she 448 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: had gone in the opposite direction. She wrote, quote for 449 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 1: the female of the species, it's a fatal thing for 450 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: an artist to marry. Her consciousness is too much disturbed. 451 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: She can no longer live sufficiently within herself to produce. 452 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: But it's hard to accept this. If you've looked at 453 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: any of Edward Hopper's paintings from after he and Josephine 454 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: became romantically involved, you have seen Joe. Although she did 455 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,719 Speaker 1: always looked like herself, she really became his only model. 456 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: So whether you're seeing an usher in a movie theater 457 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: in New York movie or the woman drinking late night 458 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: coffee with a gentleman in the Diner and Nighthawks, that's 459 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 1: all Joe. There's speculation that just as he was jealous 460 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: of her, in so many ways, this might have been 461 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,959 Speaker 1: something that Joe insisted on due to her own jealousies 462 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: about her husband. It also seems that to some degree 463 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: this was a way for Joe to be part of 464 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: her husband's success since she wasn't being allowed success of 465 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: her own. Yeah, she also seemed to just enjoy that, 466 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: like in those moments she became the focus of his work, 467 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: like he paid attention to her in a way that 468 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: was not unkind. She wrote about being very, very proud 469 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: of posing for him and of being part of his 470 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: work in that way, and she really did seem to 471 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: love this aspect of their lives. She and ed collaborated 472 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: on the back stories of the characters that she inhabited 473 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: for his work, even giving them character names that only 474 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: they knew. We're going to get into some of the 475 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: darker aspects of Joe and Ed's marriage, so before we do, 476 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: we're going to take a break and have a word 477 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: from the sponsors that let us keep telling stories like 478 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: this one. After roughly the first decade of the Hoppers marriage, 479 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: things became more troubled. The conflicts between them heightened, as 480 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: Edward had done in the early stage of their marriage. 481 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: He once again began sketching critical caricatures and cartoons of 482 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: the two of them, including one called non Anger Man 483 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: pro Anger Woman. This shows him literally like a saint, 484 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: complete with a halo. It looks like a cartoon version 485 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: of a painting of a saint you might see, while 486 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: Joe is made to look like an irate, tiny pixie 487 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: haranguing him. Their relationship was strained even more when Joe, 488 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: who was frustrated, started to casually share details of their 489 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: life with some of Ed's colleagues and patrons. Since she 490 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: was handling a lot of his business, she noted when 491 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: he was lethargic and not productive, or even just that 492 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: he wasn't feeling well. They had started visiting South Truro 493 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: on Cape Cod in the summers, and they decided to 494 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: build a house there in the nineteen thirties, and of 495 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: course this came with its own stresses, particularly during the construction, 496 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: and as they're strange, often abrasive dynamic had developed over 497 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: the years. It had also, as we mentioned earlier, grown 498 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,959 Speaker 1: physically violent. In her journals, Joe describes the two of 499 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: them getting into altercations really regularly. When they closed up 500 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: their Greenwich studio in May of nineteen thirty four for 501 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: the summer. She references the tense pre travel situation between 502 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: the two of them in her journal, writing quote E 503 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: feeling watched all his symptoms to the for all negotiation 504 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: and prohibition. I driven to scratch and bite he handed. 505 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: There's one, so his insistent driving in of the spurs 506 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: every time I glance at my list. When their tenth 507 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: anniversary arrived, there wasn't really a celebration, and two days 508 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: later Ed suggested that he could drive to pick up 509 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: his mother and sister to visit their newly finished house 510 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: in South Truro. She had been hoping the house would 511 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: be done in time for them to have a party, 512 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: and that did not work out. She was so frustrated 513 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: at the idea that, in the midst of still moving 514 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: and getting the house settled, he thought it would be 515 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: fine for her to also have to cook for and 516 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: look after guests. That Joe wrote to a friend about 517 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: all of this. It is also tied up in how 518 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: angry Ed seemed to get when she found a bolt 519 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: of inspiration to paint. So as I'm reading this excerpt 520 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: from this letter, know that she's kind of like merging 521 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: these two issues they're having into one. She writes, quote 522 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: ed is the very center of my universe. If I'm 523 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: on the point of being very happy, he sees to 524 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: it that I'm not. If I am happy, ever, and 525 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: not too ex austed, I might want to paint. He's 526 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: better fed, more blithomely fed during the infrequent periods when 527 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: I do paint, but it riles him. She also wrote 528 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: to his family and said that it was just a 529 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: really bad time for visitors, which caused more strife between them. 530 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: Joe writes his things to send to a darker place 531 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: between them, where violence is a lot more common that quote. 532 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: If he cuffs, I'll scratch. What else is there to do? 533 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: In protest? Edward, as we mentioned earlier, was a lot 534 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: larger than Joe, was about twice her size and weight 535 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: in addition to being much taller. She wrote that she 536 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: quote always found tallman exciting, not when they use that 537 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: extra span of arm length to swat me. Though Edward 538 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: additionally was constantly critical of Joe's painting, and when he 539 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: experienced a creative block that criticism became more cruel, and 540 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: this wounded her deeply. She wrote that being hit by 541 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: him was quote not as bad as meanness, there is 542 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: also really quite a sad metaphor that evolved between wife 543 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: and husband regarding their work. They didn't have kids, and 544 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: they started calling their paintings their children, which sounds kind 545 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: of cute on the surface and if you don't have context. 546 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: But as Josephine starts to use this metaphor to describe 547 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: her own work, the disparity of equality in their marriage 548 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: becomes clear. She starts calling her own paintings little bastards 549 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: and stillborn infants, and talks about how she's not in 550 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: a mental space where she could produce a healthy anything, 551 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: and she describes them to galleries as not being very good, 552 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: but adds that she loves them just like a mother would. 553 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: Ed's paintings she refers to as heirs. Joe's journal entries 554 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: as she and Ed reached twenty years of marriage together 555 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: are just deeply heartbreaking. She recognizes the loss of her 556 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: life to a marriage that seemed to bring neither herself 557 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: nor her husband much joy. In a letter to a friend, 558 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: she wrote that she had kept her nose out of 559 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: the art world and that she quote has come through 560 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: with absolutely nothing. She also wrote about how she felt 561 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: that ed had always controlled her. It had come out 562 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: at this point in their marriage that he had wished 563 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: that she would have just stopped painting when they married, 564 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: and she felt completely betrayed by this. She wrote, quote, 565 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: he certainly knew all the subtle ways of killing the 566 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: art instinct in me. The shock of learning that he 567 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: had any such wish way back when we were first 568 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: married nearly did the thing so incredible, so unspeakably low down, 569 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: and so in direct contradiction of all his attitude before 570 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: we married. The ghastliness of this one can't quite ever outlive. 571 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: Joe was in her early sixties at that time, and 572 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: seeing her husband's struggle to find inspiration, she grew even 573 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: sadder that she had given up so much of herself 574 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: and his interest. She wrote, quote, I've probably changed. I 575 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: used to have so many friends, but then I've been 576 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: seeing only his friends of late years, and people annoyed 577 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: at him for turning them down on juries to take 578 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: it out on me. Naturally, she knew the pain of 579 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: not being selected by her husband on a jury. He 580 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: had also turned down her work in a similar situation. 581 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: When the couple marked twenty five years of marriage together, 582 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: Joe said that they should get a quote quadrigare a 583 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: medal for distinguished combat. Ed in response, created a coat 584 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: of arms for them, featuring a rolling pin and a 585 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: ladle in reference to household items that they had used 586 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: to strike one another. In her journal at the time, 587 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: she notes sadly all that she felt she had lost 588 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: in their quarter century together, writing quote time passing, passing, 589 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: drop by drop of one's lifeblood, hair, grain, fashions changing 590 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: an entirely new slant on art rampant, and twenty five 591 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: years of my life gone. When Joe was seventy five, 592 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: she got a spring exhibit at a gallery run by 593 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: Herman Gulak. Ten of her paintings were included, and she 594 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: was elated to see all of her pieces together on 595 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: what she called, quote such a beautiful, serene wall, all 596 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: to myself and the pictures field they've gone to heaven. 597 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: Hopper did not go to the opening. He said that 598 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: his back was bothering him, but in a turnabout of 599 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: some of his earlier assessments of Joe's paintings, Edwards said 600 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: that hers was the only good work in the showing. 601 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: He sent several catalogs from the show to friends and 602 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: press with notes about Joe's work. Joe was described as 603 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: ecstatic anytime she visited the gallery, and she would twirl 604 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: around in delight. Her work was featured in the Christian 605 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: Science Monitor and The Villager, and reviews noted her paintings 606 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: as transforming and elevating the scenes of domestic interiors. We 607 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: have quoted a whole lot from Joe's journals, and it 608 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: is often really unpleasant, and to be honest, I left 609 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: out some of the more upsetting parts because you get 610 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: the idea. But as is often the case in unhealthy relationships, 611 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 1: when there is abuse, there is often codependency, and people 612 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: can become convinced that their love is more important than 613 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: any of the other stuff, even when that other stuff 614 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: is just awful. And this is also reflected in Joe's writings. 615 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: She wrote things like quote ed is the very center 616 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: of my universe. It's such blessedness that Edward and I 617 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: have each other. Surely I'll be allowed to go when 618 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: he does. It seems that from the very beginning, Joe 619 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: Nivison and Edward Hopper were so terribly mismatched, and they 620 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: brought out the absolute worst in each other. But they 621 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: also never entertain the thought of just not being together, 622 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: and that conflict of love and hate was also something 623 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: that Joe was definitely grappling with. She also wrote quote, 624 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: I can scarcely stay and e H, but how possibly 625 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: live without him? She did live without him, but only briefly. 626 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: Edward Hopper died on May fifteenth, nineteen sixty seven, and 627 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: their apartment at three Washington Square North. He was five. 628 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: Ten months later, on March six, night, Josephe Nivison Hopper 629 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: also died. She was buried with her husband in his 630 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: hometown of Nyack, New York. And when she died, Joe 631 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: left the entire body of her work and eds to 632 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: the Whitney Museum of American Art. This was a massive bequeathment, 633 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: including three thousand pieces. But this kind of turned out 634 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: to be a tragedy of its own because for a 635 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,439 Speaker 1: long time, a lot of Joe's work was lost because 636 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: the museum didn't see her as the important artist. There 637 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: was a list of her work, but a lot of 638 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: the paintings themselves no one could find. Some of Joe's 639 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 1: work was attributed actually to ed and some of her 640 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: pieces about eight dozen were kind of given away as 641 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 1: gifts to various places like office buildings and hospitals. However, 642 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 1: while researching Joe for a book and two thousand, writer 643 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Thompson Callery found two hundred of her paintings still 644 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: in the basement of the Whitney. Even now, though it's 645 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: hard to find Joe's work online, I know when I 646 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: was looking for artwork to share in our social media 647 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: for this did not find a lot. The Whitney has 648 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: two on their website. One is a watercolor portrait of 649 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: Bertram Hartman. The other is an undated oil painting of 650 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: wilted flowers titled Obituary. Both of them feature cats as 651 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: secondary elements to the composition. Maybe that is a nod 652 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: to the long lost Arthur. Other paintings have surfaced, including 653 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: in a large gift to the Provincetown Art Association and 654 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: Museum in twos which included art by both Joe and 655 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: ed and the museum has since mounted an exhibit of 656 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: their work in tandem. That gift came from a private collector. 657 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: In recent years, as Joe's story has become more well known, 658 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: there have been a few additional exhibitions of her work, 659 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: including one at the Edward Hopper House Art Center. In Nyack. 660 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: If you're interested in reading more of Joe's journals, they're 661 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: quoted extensively by art historian and author Gail Levin in 662 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: her book Edward Hopper and Intimate Biography. Yeah, those journals 663 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: are not publicly available. She got access to them in 664 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: the archives where they are um and it's interesting because 665 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: it's an ostensibly a biography of Edward Hopper, but it 666 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: really is very much about the two of them and 667 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: is kind of the first instance where Joe's story really 668 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: plays out through her own words. Very frustrating episode, search 669 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 1: and work on which we'll talk about some more behind 670 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,439 Speaker 1: the scenes. I'm sure do you have some listener mail. 671 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: I do, and I wanted to do a funny one 672 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: because this was such a bummer episode. This is from 673 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: our listener, Jessica. She reads Hi, Tracy, and Holly. I 674 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: recently listened to the unearthed July edition and you're related 675 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: behind the scenes episode. I was tickled by your passionate 676 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: discussion of library fines and can definitely relate by the way, 677 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: but it also reminded me of a library story of 678 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: my own. Many years ago. I was living with a 679 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: boyfriend from Washington State when he had been in school 680 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: in Spokane. He had gone with a friend to get 681 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: a library card at the local public library, and for 682 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: some reason I think having to do with proper I 683 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: d they refused to give him a library card. This 684 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: became a big joke amongst his friends he the most 685 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: mild mannered guy, was too dangerous and suspicious to be 686 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: issued a library card. Many moons later, he accompanied me 687 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: to the Library of Congress, where I was getting a 688 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: reader's card to do some research for a paper I 689 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 1: was writing for law school. Since he was there and 690 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: I think they wouldn't let him come with me unless 691 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: he had one, he applied for a reader's card as 692 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: well and got one. As soon as we left. He 693 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 1: took a picture and sent it to his friends quote, 694 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: I can get a library card for the Library of Congress, 695 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: but not the Spokane Public Library. Thanks as always for 696 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: the work you put into entertaining history lovers like me. 697 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: It's nice to know I'm not alone in my nursery. Jessica, 698 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: thank you for this. It's so charming and was a 699 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: perfect way to uh mitigate some of the down earnus 700 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: of this episode. If you would like to write to us, 701 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 1: you can do so at History podcast at iHeart radio 702 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,760 Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find us on social media 703 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: as Missed in History pretty much everywhere, And if you 704 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: haven't subscribed yet but you're thinking that's a good idea, 705 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 1: we do too. You can do that on the I 706 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: heart radio app or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 707 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of 708 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 709 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 710 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.