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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, and welcome to Next Question. Today.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to look outside the US for a moment

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Speaker 1: and consider the bigger global picture. The US has taken

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Speaker 1: a clear step back from its leadership position on the

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Speaker 1: global stage, and countries around the world have been left

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Speaker 1: to fend for themselves, which leads to my next question,

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Speaker 1: what will the new world order look like in the

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Speaker 1: wake of the coronavirus pandemic? And there's really no one

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Speaker 1: better to ask than my guests for this special bonus episode,

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Speaker 1: Richard Hass. He's the president of the Council and Form Relations,

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Speaker 1: the author of the new book The World A Brief Introduction,

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Speaker 1: and definitely one of the smartest people I know. I

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Speaker 1: spoke with him about why he believes this crisis promises

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Speaker 1: to be less of a turning point than away station

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Speaker 1: along this same road the world's been traveling for the

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Speaker 1: past few decades. Richard Hass. Great to have you on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. Great to be had so Richard. Of course

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Speaker 1: we should mention we've known each other for a very

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Speaker 1: long time. Met Gosh, at this point, maybe thirty years

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Speaker 1: ago when you were in Washington. I'm much too young

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Speaker 1: for that to be possible, but but it was something

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Speaker 1: it might be about that you were still you were

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Speaker 1: a young reporter for the NBC affiliate in Washington, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And we met when we were in line at the

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Speaker 1: Social Safe Way in Washington, d C. And I just

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Speaker 1: started talking to you because I thought you seemed cute.

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Speaker 1: I was engaged at the time, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, we just have to kind of

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Speaker 1: because I think we're gonna sound like we know each

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Speaker 1: other and we're kind of familiar. So I want people

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Speaker 1: to understand how and why. And I'll give the short version, Richard,

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Speaker 1: I'll give the abridge version. So basically, I saw this

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Speaker 1: guy he out on a nice tweet jacket with elbow patches,

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Speaker 1: some Hebrew national salami in his part, and I just

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Speaker 1: sort of started talking to him because I was always

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Speaker 1: trying to set my friend up with a with a

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Speaker 1: cute guy. And I found out, Richard, what was living

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Speaker 1: in d C. That he had gone to Harvard. By

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Speaker 1: the way, I just learned from your book and my research,

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize you were a Rhodes scholar. To Jesus, Richard,

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Speaker 1: you're quite the overachiever. Anyway, this conversation is only trouble anyway.

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Speaker 1: Long story short, he met my friend, they enjoyed each

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Speaker 1: other's company, and uh, but it wasn't a love connection.

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Speaker 1: He ended up marrying someone else. I know, Susan Mark

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Speaker 1: and Daddy. He's a wonderful person and we're all still

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Speaker 1: friends to this day. And now you're frequent golf partner

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Speaker 1: of my husband's, John Muhlner. A high percentage of what

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Speaker 1: you just said is true. Okay, all right, We'll move

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Speaker 1: on to loftier topics Richard, and namely your new book

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Speaker 1: called The World a Brief Introduction, and I love what

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Speaker 1: motivated you to write this book? Can you tell that story? Richard?

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Speaker 1: I was doing something I don't frequently do, which was fishing,

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Speaker 1: and I was with one of my best buddies and

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Speaker 1: his nephew was with him. This was a very bright

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Speaker 1: young man, about twenty or twenty one, I think he

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Speaker 1: was between his junior and senior years at Stanford. And

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Speaker 1: I asked him what he was studying there, and he

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Speaker 1: said computer sciences and he told me about it, and

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Speaker 1: then I said, I'm just curious because we can't have

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Speaker 1: a conversation about computer sciences because I don't know enough

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Speaker 1: to have a conversation. But what else are you studying?

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Speaker 1: For example, Uh, what kind of history courses are you taking?

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Speaker 1: And he said, well, I'm actually not taking any and

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Speaker 1: I said, oh, that's interesting. Well what about economics. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not taking any of those either. We went through

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Speaker 1: a lot of the liberal arts curriculum, and the bottom

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Speaker 1: line is this bright young man was going to graduate

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Speaker 1: from one of the greatest universities in the world with

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Speaker 1: what I what was a really incomplete undergraduate education. And

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Speaker 1: when I got back to my office, we looked at

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Speaker 1: hundreds of colleges and universities around the United States, and

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Speaker 1: it turned out that his experience was anything but an exception.

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Speaker 1: But even though virtually every core campus offered courses on

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Speaker 1: foreign policy or international affairs or what have you, virtually none,

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Speaker 1: really only a handful required them for graduation. So if

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Speaker 1: you wanted to, you could not. You could navigate your

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Speaker 1: your requirements for graduation and essentially graduate without even a

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Speaker 1: rudimentary knowledge of this world that was going to change

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Speaker 1: your life. And what I thought I would try to

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Speaker 1: do in a in a single book is give people

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Speaker 1: the foundation, not to give them everything they need to

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Speaker 1: know much less how to think, but to give them

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Speaker 1: enough background so they would be better prepared to handle

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Speaker 1: the flood of news coming at them, to ask the

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Speaker 1: right questions, to think of out say, investments or business decisions.

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Speaker 1: And that was the goal here, to establish a kind

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Speaker 1: of foundational of floor level of global literacy for the

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Speaker 1: average citizen. I think it's a wonderful idea, Richard, because

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Speaker 1: I think not just your friend's nephew is in this boat,

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Speaker 1: but I think you know, even well educated people, the

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Speaker 1: world is so complicated. There's so much to keep up with.

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Speaker 1: It's virtually impossible, I think, unless you're the president of

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Speaker 1: the Council on Foreign Relations or this is your area

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Speaker 1: of expertise to really have a handle on it. Were

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Speaker 1: you able to boil it down and make it accessible

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Speaker 1: and understandable for for people honestly like me who is

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Speaker 1: excited about reading about some of these things, some for

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Speaker 1: the first time and some as a refresher. Of course,

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Speaker 1: that was the goal, and ultimately people will tell me

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Speaker 1: whether I succeeded. I worked hard at it was actually

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Speaker 1: a really difficult book to write for two reasons, and

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Speaker 1: you're you suggested both. One was to figure out what

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Speaker 1: to put in and what not to and when you

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Speaker 1: have it's almost like a buffet and you can put

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Speaker 1: on your plate anything from a hundred different goals. How

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Speaker 1: do you decide what to take? So I took a

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Speaker 1: lot of laps around Central Park thinking about what it

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Speaker 1: was to include and what really wasn't uh necessary? And

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Speaker 1: then I had to really unpack the issues, not use jargon,

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Speaker 1: not assume that people knew some historical reference, had to

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Speaker 1: explain everything. I learned a lot in writing it, because

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Speaker 1: you know, I do this for a living and I've

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Speaker 1: been doing it for forty years. But in many cases

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Speaker 1: I didn't know everything I needed to know in order

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Speaker 1: to teach it or explain it. Look, it's interesting to

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Speaker 1: learn the basics of some of the history, or why

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Speaker 1: is the Middle East such a messed up region? Or

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Speaker 1: why should we care about I wrote about global health

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Speaker 1: and pandemics before anyone knew what COVID nineteen was, or

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Speaker 1: just why is climate change such a problem. My goal

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Speaker 1: every step of the way was to connect it. The

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Speaker 1: subliminal question was why does the world matter? And therefore

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Speaker 1: why why? Why do you need to become somewhat more

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Speaker 1: knowledgeable about it? Someone somewhat more prepared to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think people suddenly became so uneducated about civics,

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Speaker 1: about world affairs? Um, it seems like a real indictment

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Speaker 1: of our education system. Was it the shift in terms

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Speaker 1: of what we needed to to really learn about in

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Speaker 1: order to secure a good job when people graduated. Was it?

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Speaker 1: Was there a turning point? Does it coincide with the

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Speaker 1: US is I think increasing tendency to look inward? I mean,

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Speaker 1: how do you explain it, because it's actually very depressing

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Speaker 1: to me. Well, it's all of the above. I think

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Speaker 1: this country has a history of isolationism or continental country.

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Speaker 1: A lot goes on here, and when you think about it,

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Speaker 1: World War two, in the last seventy years, or really

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Speaker 1: the exception when the United States has been involved in

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Speaker 1: the world in an open ended way before then, was anything.

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Speaker 1: But in some ways, what we're seeing is a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a return to our tradition. I think with

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Speaker 1: the end of the Cold War this accelerated the sense was, well,

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Speaker 1: we can now put our feet up. We don't really

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Speaker 1: have to worry about the world all that much. We've

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Speaker 1: got lots of problems here at at home to tackle,

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Speaker 1: so I think a lot. And then I think, probably

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Speaker 1: more recently, Iraq and Afghanistan created the sense that getting

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Speaker 1: involved in the world was a bad thing. It costs lives,

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Speaker 1: it costs money. So again it pushed people more to

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Speaker 1: think about problems. In the United States, you didn't have

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Speaker 1: political leaders who were explaining why what goes on in

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Speaker 1: the world matters. That's somewhat nuanced conversation. So for any

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Speaker 1: number of reasons, Americans just turned away from it, and

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Speaker 1: I think mostly in part because they weren't studying it,

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Speaker 1: didn't see the didn't see the connections. No one was

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Speaker 1: pointing out why this is useful, to know why this

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Speaker 1: is relevant, and people thought they could get along fine

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Speaker 1: without it. And one of the expensive lessons of what

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Speaker 1: we're all going through now in the pandemic is that

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Speaker 1: we're learning that the world does matter, it does affect

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Speaker 1: our lives. Indeed, fundamentally our life. Denial is not a policy.

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Speaker 1: I think the same thing applies to to climate change,

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Speaker 1: but it is an indictment that our education in many

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Speaker 1: cases is not preparing Americans collectively or individually for the

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Speaker 1: for the world that they're going to inherit. When we

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Speaker 1: come back more with Richard Hass, President of the Council

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Speaker 1: Inform Relations. We're back with Richard Hass, President of the

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Speaker 1: Council on Foreign Relations. It's sort of surprising that, as

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Speaker 1: Tom Friedman wrote about the world becoming flat, that globalization

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Speaker 1: was accompanied by a certain sense of detachment from what

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Speaker 1: was happening in you know, outside our borders. You're right,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's a contradiction. Also, I think against globalization

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Speaker 1: there was a certain pushback again. Foreign policy we've seen

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Speaker 1: as sometimes wasteful or expensive. People didn't always like what

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Speaker 1: they saw. They thought they could get along with with

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Speaker 1: without it, And we've been living in a certain bubble.

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Speaker 1: And we learned on nine eleven that terrorists who were

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Speaker 1: trained in Afghanistan could cause the death of three thousand Americans,

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Speaker 1: And in a couple of hours, we're learning now about

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Speaker 1: what began in Wuhan didn't day in Wuhan, It traveled

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Speaker 1: around the world, and now more than eighty thousand or

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Speaker 1: so Americans have lost their lives, Trillions of dollars of

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Speaker 1: wealth have been eliminated, tens and millions of jobs have

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Speaker 1: been eliminated. We saw the fires last summer in California.

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Speaker 1: We saw them in Australia, and I think that's just

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Speaker 1: a glimmer of what's to come. So I think what

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Speaker 1: we're learning is that the world really does matter, that

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Speaker 1: we ignore it to our peril. Isolationism is not a

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Speaker 1: solution to anything. What I'm hoping people also learn from

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Speaker 1: the current crisis is that unilateralism isn't much of a

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Speaker 1: response either. We can't do it by ourselves. It can't

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Speaker 1: just be America first. We've got to pool our resources

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Speaker 1: and and work with others. So this is this is

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Speaker 1: the most expensive teaching lesson I can imagine, and I

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Speaker 1: want to wish that on this country or any individual,

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Speaker 1: no matter what. But since it is happening, I'm hoping

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Speaker 1: that we can at least come away with this somewhat

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Speaker 1: somewhat the wiser. Well, let's talk about the US response

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Speaker 1: to this global pandemic. I know you believe it won't

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Speaker 1: so much change the basic direction of world history, but

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Speaker 1: will accelerate it. So I think, what what this pandemic

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Speaker 1: has done, Richard? In so many ways, it's brought into

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Speaker 1: sharp relief pre existing conditions, if you will, not only

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Speaker 1: domestically about income, inequality, access to healthcare, but globally about

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Speaker 1: the you know, the road we were already down before

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Speaker 1: this even surface. Can you talk about that this pandemic

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Speaker 1: didn't come out of nowhere, that it came into a context.

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Speaker 1: And the context internationally was one of a deteriorating US

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Speaker 1: Chinese relationship. You had the Brexit and the problems facing Europe.

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Speaker 1: The Middle East was turbulent, to say the least. North

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Speaker 1: Korea was increasing its nuclear missile arsenals. Russia was in

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Speaker 1: uh Ukraine, China was repressing freedom in Hong Kong, was

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Speaker 1: building out in the South China Sea, and as well,

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Speaker 1: it was a failed state, hemorrhaging people, and these and

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Speaker 1: any number of other challenges or realities in the world.

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Speaker 1: And what this has done is intensified it, accelerated and

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Speaker 1: exacerbated it. Uh So, the US Chinese relationship is even

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Speaker 1: is even worse. The Middle East now faces even more problems,

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Speaker 1: and we're looking away. So North Korea has been free

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Speaker 1: to continue down its path of missile and nuclear development.

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Speaker 1: The world has done nothing to catch up to the

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Speaker 1: challenge of climate change. And what's even worse, Katie, is

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Speaker 1: because we've had to devote so much of our attention,

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Speaker 1: so much of our bandwidth, so much of our resources.

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Speaker 1: I worry about this combination of a world that's in

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Speaker 1: worse shape than it was because of the pandemic, and

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Speaker 1: now we have less attention less capacity to to deal

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Speaker 1: with it. That seems to me the worst of all situations.

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Speaker 1: But I'm afraid that's the one we have less capacity

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Speaker 1: to deal with. What Richard, Oh, it's everything from the

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Speaker 1: fact of you've got millions of people around the world

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Speaker 1: who are are either ill or will be. You've got

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Speaker 1: economies that can't produce enough wealth in order to deal

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Speaker 1: with the public health needs as well as to keep

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Speaker 1: people employed. You've got the proliferation challenges, the terrorism challenges.

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Speaker 1: Russia hasn't left Ukraine, China is not pulling in it's horns.

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Speaker 1: You've had all the problems you had before. The last

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Speaker 1: book was the World in Disarray, So you had all

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Speaker 1: the disarray in the world, which has gradually gotten worse.

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Speaker 1: And again, what's now I think that more problematic is

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Speaker 1: the problems are more advanced, like climate change. The relationship

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Speaker 1: between the two most powerful countries in the world, the

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Speaker 1: US and China, is rubbed raw, and the United States

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Speaker 1: is spending trillions of dollars in order to provide relief

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Speaker 1: to American citizens and businesses, which means that we're not

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Speaker 1: going to have the capacity to devote resources and time

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Speaker 1: and attention to these international problems. And as we are learning, uh,

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Speaker 1: bad things happen around the world, sooner or later, they

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Speaker 1: will find their way here. You know, I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about terrorism, and I was thinking, as we're all focused

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Speaker 1: on the pandemic, we're really not keeping our eye on

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Speaker 1: on what kind of mischief quote unquote could be being

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Speaker 1: made in some of these terror hot spots or these

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Speaker 1: these terrorists hot spots. So I was just I was

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Speaker 1: thinking this morning, I mean, when's the last time we

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Speaker 1: really focused on terrorism? And the one thing we looked

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Speaker 1: at we didn't see Kim Jong n We thought he

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Speaker 1: might have died because he wasn't in public. But these

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Speaker 1: things have taken are even I mean, they're on the

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Speaker 1: back burner in a big way, aren't they. And what

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Speaker 1: do you see the ramifications of us not keeping eye

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Speaker 1: our eye on terrorism, which certainly is not going away. No,

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Speaker 1: history doesn't have a pause button. So just because we're distracted,

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Speaker 1: just because we're focusing in where it doesn't mean anything

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Speaker 1: else much like everything else stops. It worries me a

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Speaker 1: little bit that a terrorist might look at what's going

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Speaker 1: on and say, wow, we've been focusing on the wrong

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Speaker 1: kinds of threats or weapons. Our goal shouldn't be to

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Speaker 1: bring down airplanes or use car bombs, but maybe there

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Speaker 1: is something that we could use to infect a population.

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Speaker 1: And so I worry a little bit about uh so

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Speaker 1: called grand terrorism along uh those you know those lines.

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Speaker 1: But even without that uh, the violence hasn't stopped in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: It hasn't stopped in Seria or Olibya, or or Yemen.

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Speaker 1: So again, just because we're not watching, just because we're

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Speaker 1: not heavily involved, doesn't mean it's not happening. Take one example, Iran.

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Speaker 1: Over the last six months or year, it's estimated that

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Speaker 1: Iran has reduced by a significant out how many months

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Speaker 1: they would need before they would be on the brank

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Speaker 1: of developing a nuclear weapon. And we're not paying close

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Speaker 1: attention to it. I expect the Israelis are. But again

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Speaker 1: it's just a reminder that here we are while we

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Speaker 1: tackle this new set of problems, including pandemics, the old

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Speaker 1: set of problems hasn't been resolved, much less going away.

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Speaker 1: So two very scary notions, the use of biological weapons,

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Speaker 1: which we've of course been somewhat concerned about for many years,

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Speaker 1: and a nuclear Iran. Although I thought Iran had been

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Speaker 1: so impacted by COVID nineteen as well, Richard, Iran has

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Speaker 1: been badly hurt by the plummeting oil price. By their

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Speaker 1: in net mismanagement of the pandemic, they allowed the pilgrimage

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Speaker 1: to to continue. The government was discredited by their shootdown

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Speaker 1: of the Ukrainian civil airliner a few months ago and

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Speaker 1: their subsequent cover up. Just the other day there was

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Speaker 1: a friendly fire accident where Ronnie and Saw shot at

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Speaker 1: an Iranian vessel and I think killed something like twenty

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Speaker 1: soldiers or sailors. But at the same time, Uranians are

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Speaker 1: still causing real mischief around the region and in Iraq

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Speaker 1: and other places, and they are continuing to press up

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Speaker 1: against the edges of the two thousand fifteen nuclear agreement.

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Speaker 1: So they are there. They are able, if you will,

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Speaker 1: to take the punch of the pandemic and still continue

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Speaker 1: to cause other problems. Indeed, there's a school of thought

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Speaker 1: that because the regime there is facing public criticism for

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Speaker 1: its handling of COVID nineteen, that they're doing things in

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Speaker 1: order to promote a confrontation with the United States so

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Speaker 1: they can wrap themselves in the flag. Change the subject

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Speaker 1: if you will, Yes, wag the dog varsity style. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's you have said that foreign leaders have told you

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Speaker 1: that they quote don't recognize America right now and that

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Speaker 1: this is not the America they thought they knew. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Can you can you elaborate on that a little bit cured?

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Speaker 1: And can you talk about what ideally the American response

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Speaker 1: would have been to this pandemic versus in reality what

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Speaker 1: it has been. Uh, there's two sides to the coin.

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Speaker 1: One is domestically, when they look at our politics, they

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Speaker 1: look at other features of American society there they shake

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Speaker 1: their heads. A lot of them studied here, a lot

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Speaker 1: of them spend time here. And so they see United

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Speaker 1: States that has not just inequality, but has had several

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Speaker 1: decades of lagging or drifting incomes in the part of

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Speaker 1: many families. They see the gun violence, which they can't

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Speaker 1: understand or comprehend, the opioid deaths. Now, they see the

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Speaker 1: inept handling of the pandemic, the lack of testing, the

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Speaker 1: lack of discipline, social distancing, inadequate hospital capacity. So this

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Speaker 1: is not the United States. They respect much less want

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Speaker 1: to emulate. And then they see what we're doing or

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Speaker 1: not doing around the world. The fact that we not

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Speaker 1: participate in the European led effort to bring countries together

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Speaker 1: governments together, say to develop a vaccine, so we're essentially

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Speaker 1: missing an action. We talk about being tough on China,

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Speaker 1: but then we don't join the Trans Pacific Partnership, the

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Speaker 1: Regional Economic grouping, and most of our interaction with our

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Speaker 1: allies in the region is to break them over the

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Speaker 1: level of defense spending, rather than to come up with

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Speaker 1: a common approach, say to dealing with the challenge from

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Speaker 1: from China. So I think this the pandemic reinforces a

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Speaker 1: lot of these these perceptions of the United of the

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Speaker 1: United States that can no longer be counted on abroad,

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Speaker 1: were no longer as reliable and at home the United States,

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Speaker 1: that is not setting a standard or behavior that they

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Speaker 1: had come to to expect from us. And this is

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Speaker 1: what this leads to as a world where we have

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Speaker 1: less influence, where other countries kind of go their own way.

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Speaker 1: But it's not a good situation because these other countries

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Speaker 1: don't have the capacity to substitute for US. In some cases,

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Speaker 1: they may decide to develop more military capability so they're

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Speaker 1: more independent, which is not to me a reassuring future.

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Speaker 1: In some cases they may need to assuage a more

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Speaker 1: powerful neighbor. But a post American world will probably be

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Speaker 1: less prosperous, less free, UH, and less peaceful. And that's

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Speaker 1: the direction things are moving. We'll be back with more

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Speaker 1: of our conversation right after this once again, Richard Hass,

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Speaker 1: President of the Council and Form Relations. You've worked with

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Speaker 1: both Republicans and Democratic administrations, Richard uh Is, this is

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Speaker 1: this because of Donald Trump's leadership. It has something to

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Speaker 1: do with that. Donald Trump is UH an outlier. If

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Speaker 1: you look at it, re American president from Harry Truman

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Speaker 1: to through Barack Obama, what they had in common was

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Speaker 1: far greater than where they disagreed. Donald Trump is the

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Speaker 1: first president who probably disagrees more than he has in

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Speaker 1: common with all of his modern predecessors. He is clearly

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Speaker 1: in that sense of disruptor. But one of the big

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Speaker 1: questions in the field is whether it's in six months

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Speaker 1: or in four years and six months. And Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: is succeeded by someone else. To what extent the things

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Speaker 1: go back to what extent now has the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world somewhat moved on, to what extent as if

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Speaker 1: the American people decided they don't want to support certain

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Speaker 1: kinds of policy. But to put it in another way,

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Speaker 1: to what extent is Donald Trump or reflection of a

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Speaker 1: changed America in a changed world as much as he

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Speaker 1: is a driver of it, and that there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a big debate about that about what things look like afterwards.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's any going back to where where

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Speaker 1: where things were exactly, but I do think they're a

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Speaker 1: potential for more of a return to a familiar traditional

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Speaker 1: American role in the world. I do think that's possible,

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Speaker 1: although you have posited that even a Biden presidency would

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Speaker 1: likely not guarantee a full scale return of an expansive

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Speaker 1: US role in the world. That's correct. I've written that,

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Speaker 1: and I still think that, and it's because the American

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Speaker 1: people aren't there. I think the pandemic we'll also reinforce

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Speaker 1: that because our domestic needs are going to be enormous,

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Speaker 1: the rest of the world might not be as prepared

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Speaker 1: to accept America's leadership in the future, and with the

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Speaker 1: thought that GF had happened once, it could happen again.

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Speaker 1: We can't be quite as reliant on the United States.

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Speaker 1: China has become more powerful, Russia is more entrenched in

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Speaker 1: the Middle East and in Ukraine. North Korea has much

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Speaker 1: farther advanced in terms of its nuclear and missile development.

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Speaker 1: What I do know is whoever is the next president

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Speaker 1: in early twenty one, whether it's Donald Trump for second

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Speaker 1: term or Joe Biden for his first, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be an extraordinarily difficult, even daunting uh inbox challenges. And

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Speaker 1: that's where again COVID nineteen, the pandemic has made it worse.

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Speaker 1: The challenges are somewhat greater about traditional ones as as

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Speaker 1: well as global ones, including the pandemic. Would also say

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Speaker 1: climate change, and our capacity and focus is going to

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Speaker 1: be less so. Even even if a president came in

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Speaker 1: like a Joe Biden who was inclined to do certain things,

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Speaker 1: he's just going to be dealt a very difficult, very

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Speaker 1: difficult hand. Do you think he's up up to the job,

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Speaker 1: Richard Well, Joe Biden is someone who has a lot

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Speaker 1: of experience, So I have no doubt about his ability.

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Speaker 1: He spent eight years as vice president, he spent decades

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Speaker 1: in the in the Senate, on the on the Foreign

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Speaker 1: Relations Committee. He's experienced with the with the issues. I

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Speaker 1: run a nonpartisan institution, so I have to be have

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Speaker 1: to be careful. I don't endorse candidates and the like,

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Speaker 1: but simply you know, he's got his background and whether

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Speaker 1: I don't think even his critics can can deny that

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Speaker 1: they can agree or disagree with various stances he's taken

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Speaker 1: and he and I have disagreed at times on issues.

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Speaker 1: But does he have the experience? Does he have the

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Speaker 1: familiarity both with the issues and how the US government

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Speaker 1: makes policy? I think the answer there is a clear guess. Clearly,

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Speaker 1: we are probably on the verge of a new era

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Speaker 1: in foreign policy. You know, from the post Cold War war.

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Speaker 1: This might be the post pandemic right era in foreign relations.

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Speaker 1: But are there some positive things that we can look

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Speaker 1: forward to? I think one thing that has been made

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Speaker 1: abundantly clear, at least from where I sit, Richard is

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Speaker 1: in an era where expertise was less and less valued.

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Speaker 1: We are starting to recognize, I think more than we did,

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Speaker 1: the importance of science, the important of data, the importance

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Speaker 1: of facts. Some people more than others, I think, would

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Speaker 1: are appreciating those things. But do you see that as

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Speaker 1: a positive as we emerge from this crisis, Well, I

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Speaker 1: hope you're right, and the kind of respect you feet

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Speaker 1: see for Dr Fauci, for example, the climate debate became

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Speaker 1: a more serious debate and people we spent less time

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Speaker 1: having to argue that a climate change is real and

432
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: more change, more kind of time talking about actually how

433
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: to actually deal with it, how to prevent future climate change,

434
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: adapt to existing climate change, than I would be uh,

435
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: you know, I would be gratified and reassured. I'm hoping

436
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: also that what comes out of this is a growing

437
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: recognition that the world does matter, that isolationism and unilateralism

438
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: are not viable alternatives, that we have a tremendous stake

439
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: and what happens outside our borders, and that we have

440
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: to we have to be involved, We can't be passive,

441
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: we can't simply bury our head in the center. Well,

442
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: I certainly hope we learn. And the other thing that

443
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: I hope is but I'm not I'm not certain it

444
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: will happen, is that Americans become more interested in what's

445
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: happening around the world in addition to reading your book,

446
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: that they actually that that our education system brings back

447
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: and and recognizes the importance of a well informed citizenry, uh,

448
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: not only for our democracy, but to be good global

449
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: citizens in general. Amen to that, I would I would

450
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: love that the day come sooner at the later every

451
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: high school graduate and every college graduate had certain things

452
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: under his or her belt, and it would be on domestically,

453
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: they would have read the Constitution and the federalist paper

454
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: is in the TOPEFIL and so forth, and understand what

455
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: is our political DNA, what is it that makes our

456
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: democracy vibrant? Uh? And and for an international they'd understand

457
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: why the world matters? What about this or that international

458
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: institution or alliances for this global challenge? What are certain

459
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: lessons of history? So yeah, they had that we would

460
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: be able to face the future with a foundation of

461
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: understanding about our country and the world that I really

462
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: think every citizen needs, uh, not just for their own career,

463
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: their investments and delight, but also to to hold their

464
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: elected representatives to account. Democracy needs to be based on

465
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: informed citizen right, and I think our schools aren't doing

466
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: the job in many cases, and not everybody obviously goes

467
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: to college or goes to high school. Beyond the age

468
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: of sixteen or once they reach our age, you forget

469
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: just about everything you might have learned. So I think

470
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: we need to rethink the idea of education and get

471
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: beyond the idea that it's just what you learned in

472
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: classrooms when you're a teenager in your early twenties. It's

473
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: got to be home a lifelong experience. And you know,

474
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: that's again why I wrote a book like this, because

475
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: it's aim not just as students, but it's aimed to

476
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: that for their parents and grandparents. We need an informed

477
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: citizen rey, regardless of the person's age. What did you

478
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: learn the most when you were writing this book, Richard?

479
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: What you know? Has you had to synthesize these very

480
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: complex things. You're, as I mentioned, one of the smartest

481
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: people I know. But what did you learn in the

482
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: process of writing this that surprised you or perhaps made

483
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: you reconsider previously held positions? For my own thinking changed

484
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: the most, Katie, in writing the book was in how

485
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: do I put this step? Most of my study, most

486
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: of my life has been involved with traditional foreign policy,

487
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: problems in the U. S. Soviet relationship, now the US

488
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: Chinese relationship, great power relations you know, that's what I

489
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: studied when I was a student at Oxford. What where

490
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: I changed the most in writing this book was coming

491
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: up with a new appreciation of global issues that every

492
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: era of history has its defining features, and say, in

493
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: the first half of the twentieth century, it was probably

494
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: the relationship between France, Britain and Germany among those three countries.

495
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: Second half of the twentieth century was obviously the U. S.

496
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: Sovia Cold War. I think in this century, what's qualitatively

497
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: different and this is where my own thinking evolved the most,

498
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: That we not only have to take into account the

499
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: traditional great power politics, but there's this whole new set

500
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: of global issues and we simply don't have the thinking,

501
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: much less the institutions or arrangements for dealing with them.

502
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: And and if we don't, that is going to be

503
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: the that's gonna write most of the history of the

504
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: twentieth century. It's gonna be our ability or inability to

505
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: come together to deal with these global challenges, from pandemics

506
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: to to to climate change to terrorism. That makes the

507
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: twenty one century qualitatively different than the rest of modern history.

508
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: And that's thanks for me that I just didn't appreciate

509
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: nearly so much until I really delved into the issues. Well,

510
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: Richard is always great to talk to you. The new

511
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: book you're the thirteenth I believe that you've written or edited.

512
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: Is that right? Might even be one or two more

513
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: than that, Katie, but who's counting. It's called The World

514
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: a Brief Introduction. Thanks so much for doing this today.

515
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: Thanks Katie, great fun. Richard Hass's new book is called

516
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: The World a Brief Introduction and it's out now. I

517
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: highly recommend it. And that does it for this special

518
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: bonus episode of Next Question. You can check out all

519
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: of our episodes and subscribe. Please do on Apple Podcasts,

520
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Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your

521
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Speaker 1: favorite podcasts. And to keep up with the day's most

522
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: pressing news and some original content as well, subscribe to

523
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: my morning newsletter. It's called Wake Up Call and you

524
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: can do that by going to Katie correct dot com.

525
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: Until Next time and my Next Question, I'm Katie Couric.

526
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening everyone. Next Question with Katie Couric

527
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Curic Media.

528
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Katie Currik, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang.

529
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Our show producer is

530
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are Emily Pinto and Derek Clements.

531
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagin and Lowell Berlante, Mixing

532
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,200
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533
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: information on today's episode, go to Katie Kurik dot com

534
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535
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