1
00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Zone Media.

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,800
Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

3
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,480
Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

4
00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,559
Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

5
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,400
Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

6
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,880
Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

7
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,880
Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

8
00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:22,639
Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

9
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:28,200
Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions. Welcome everybody to it

10
00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,199
Speaker 2: could happen here, a podcast about it happening here. The

11
00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 2: slow crumbling of the institutions that make up our society,

12
00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 2: and that includes not just the good stuff that's become

13
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,600
Speaker 2: the bad stuff, like, for example, Google Search, but it

14
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,880
Speaker 2: includes the stuff that's always been bad and has gotten worse,

15
00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,240
Speaker 2: like life inside the prison industrial complex, which is partly

16
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,720
Speaker 2: what we will be talking today because our guest is

17
00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:59,120
Speaker 2: the great Corey, doctor, activist, writer, author of a book

18
00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,360
Speaker 2: called The Bezel, which is a fiction novel but deals

19
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 2: with some very non fictional stuff in relation to how

20
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,320
Speaker 2: finance schools have changed life for people behind bars. Corey.

21
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:11,160
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show.

22
00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on. It's a delight to

23
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:14,720
Speaker 3: be on again.

24
00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:15,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

25
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's always wonderful to have you. I just finished

26
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,479
Speaker 2: the Bezel. It took me. It was one of those

27
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 2: about a day, you know, in part because I just

28
00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,080
Speaker 2: like didn't want to stop reading it, Like I just

29
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,000
Speaker 2: kind of blasted through. I picked it up in the

30
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,560
Speaker 2: morning on a walk and then was done with it

31
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,440
Speaker 2: at about like nine pm. So I found it pretty

32
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,440
Speaker 2: compulsively readable. Amazing.

33
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,039
Speaker 3: That's great to hear. With the first one, I knew

34
00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,200
Speaker 3: that I had something going on when I woke up

35
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,240
Speaker 3: at two in the morning and my wife was sitting

36
00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:44,600
Speaker 3: up in bed next to me, and I said, what

37
00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,040
Speaker 3: are you doing? And she said, I just had to

38
00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:47,080
Speaker 3: find out how it ended.

39
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, and you said the first one. This is

40
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 2: the second book in a series based on a character

41
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 2: Martin Hinch, who's a self employed forensic accountant. I do

42
00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,480
Speaker 2: want to let people know right at the jump, I

43
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,240
Speaker 2: actually have not read your first hinchbook yet, and they

44
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,200
Speaker 2: don't have to be read an orgy. Yes, yes, that's

45
00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,320
Speaker 2: what I was going to point out before we get

46
00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 2: into the stuff about the plot of this book and

47
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,480
Speaker 2: how it relates to some very real things that are ongoing.

48
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,799
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about a not so stealth advertisement

49
00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:16,640
Speaker 2: within the series for a guy that we're both a

50
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,320
Speaker 2: big fan of, Stephen Bruce. There's an extended digression where

51
00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,760
Speaker 2: Martin is sending books to a friend of his in prison.

52
00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,240
Speaker 2: And you talk a lot about Steven's Taltosh series, which

53
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,880
Speaker 2: was a huge influence on me as a young person.

54
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 2: I could definitely see, I think, an influence on this

55
00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,000
Speaker 2: series as well.

56
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:34,799
Speaker 4: Yeah.

57
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 3: I mean, Steve is a wonderful writer, and everything he

58
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:43,320
Speaker 3: writes is amazing. That particular series, you know, he started

59
00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,480
Speaker 3: when I was thirteen years old. I'm now fifty two.

60
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 3: I just had dinner with him in Minneapolis. Or he

61
00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,560
Speaker 3: tells me he's two books away from finishing it. Yeah, Yeah,

62
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,920
Speaker 3: he had planned the whole thing all those years ago.

63
00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:02,360
Speaker 3: He's a Zelosny protege. Yeah, and also a giant Fritz

64
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:07,760
Speaker 3: liber fan. And the it's got that wise cracking Robert

65
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:13,200
Speaker 3: McGee kind of or Travis McGee rather kind of affect

66
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,080
Speaker 3: those books, and also the stuff that I love about

67
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,840
Speaker 3: the best of what you know, disparagingly we could call

68
00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,480
Speaker 3: men's adventure fiction, yeah, which is that it at its best.

69
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,840
Speaker 3: And Maria Ferrell just wrote something really good about this

70
00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,120
Speaker 3: on crooked timber, and it's best that stuff really geeks

71
00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,960
Speaker 3: out about a lot of stuff. That The bad version

72
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,760
Speaker 3: of it is the kind of James Bond version where

73
00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,640
Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, you know, this is what the status watches,

74
00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,800
Speaker 3: and this is what the status martini is, and this

75
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:41,840
Speaker 3: is what the status whatever it is, and that you

76
00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 3: call that the gourmet version right, where it's like, you

77
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 3: know what all the best of everything is and you

78
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,160
Speaker 3: know how to how to signal you know, your ver

79
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,040
Speaker 3: blend goods to other people had to signal that you

80
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,080
Speaker 3: are posh and upper class. But the good version of

81
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,360
Speaker 3: it is the is the gourmand version, which is like,

82
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 3: if you're going to eat cardboard pizza, this is the

83
00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,280
Speaker 3: best cardboard pizza.

84
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

85
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 3: And if you're going to you know, like the very

86
00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,240
Speaker 3: best gas station toilets are and the you know, the

87
00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,240
Speaker 3: one thing that you should always do if you're staying

88
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,600
Speaker 3: in a flophouse is right, And it's just that kind

89
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,119
Speaker 3: of it could be like street smarts, but it's also

90
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,720
Speaker 3: very uh, I want to say self indulgent, but that's

91
00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,320
Speaker 3: not the right word. It's no, it's very uh. It's

92
00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,760
Speaker 3: it's it's there's a lot of self care in it.

93
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,680
Speaker 3: There's a lot of like deliberate like, oh, this is

94
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 3: how I'm going to live my life so that it's

95
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,039
Speaker 3: as good as possible, and I enjoy all of the

96
00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,440
Speaker 3: finer things as much as I can. This is the

97
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,360
Speaker 3: thing that I do when I'm making a burger so

98
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,520
Speaker 3: that it's a ten percent more delicious every time, you know,

99
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:46,360
Speaker 3: yeah kind of thing.

100
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,279
Speaker 2: It's it's it's interesting. I came across the first book

101
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,080
Speaker 2: in that series that I read was Dragon, which I

102
00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,800
Speaker 2: came across a strip cover from my uncle who worked

103
00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,320
Speaker 2: at a bookstore, and that's his like military fiction book

104
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,240
Speaker 2: in the series, which is very much in line with

105
00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,560
Speaker 2: the like boys adventure stuff. But as the series goes on,

106
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:10,320
Speaker 2: it increasingly trends towards like Russian revolutionary literature too. There's

107
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,840
Speaker 2: a little bit more that which I think get an

108
00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,440
Speaker 2: influence on me. Well, Steve's a Trotskyist, yeah, yeah.

109
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,520
Speaker 3: But the thing about communist fantasy writers, there's a few

110
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,600
Speaker 3: of them, There's you know, China Mayville and step and

111
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,599
Speaker 3: a few others well, Shadderley and so on, is that

112
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,400
Speaker 3: the one thing that they can always be relied upon

113
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,760
Speaker 3: to do is get the ratio of vassals to lords, right, Yeah,

114
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,160
Speaker 3: you know that the number of peasants in the field

115
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 3: is always vastly larger than the number of lords in

116
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,520
Speaker 3: the castle, and they all have a life and an

117
00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,599
Speaker 3: interiority and a reason for being there. That's not just

118
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,680
Speaker 3: being scenery or cannon fodder.

119
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's it's something he does. Well. I think

120
00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,840
Speaker 2: that's enough of a digression. I just always love having

121
00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 2: a chance to talk about Stephen Bruce's work. Let's talk

122
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 2: about the Bezel because the basic I mean, I try

123
00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:58,880
Speaker 2: I will try not to give away more than is

124
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,120
Speaker 2: in like the good Reads summary, But the basics of

125
00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,440
Speaker 2: this story is that you've got this guy, Martin Hinch,

126
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,240
Speaker 2: who's this forensic accountant, and as a result, he's friends

127
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,359
Speaker 2: with some people who have really succeeded in sort of

128
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,880
Speaker 2: the pre dot com bubble tech industry. I guess you'd say,

129
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,400
Speaker 2: and you take us with, you know. He goes with

130
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,599
Speaker 2: one of them to a place called Catalina Island, which

131
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,440
Speaker 2: is a real place that was founded by one of

132
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,839
Speaker 2: like our nation's early plutocrats, who had a bizarre obsession

133
00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,599
Speaker 2: with their not being like fast food available on the island. Yeah,

134
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:31,360
Speaker 2: he had a lot.

135
00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 3: Of bizarre obsessions. This is William Wrigley, the gum chewing

136
00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 3: gum fortune, and his first obsession was chickle trees and

137
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,440
Speaker 3: which you need to make gum. And his particular obsession

138
00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,120
Speaker 3: was owning every chickle forest in the world, which he did,

139
00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,920
Speaker 3: which meant that if you wanted to make gum, even

140
00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,720
Speaker 3: if you were one of his competitors, you had to

141
00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,520
Speaker 3: pay him for the chickle. So there was no gum

142
00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,360
Speaker 3: that wasn't Wriggly's gum. In some important sense, this made him,

143
00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 3: as you might imagine.

144
00:06:58,320 --> 00:06:58,880
Speaker 2: Very rich.

145
00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, he bought the Chicago Cubs, is the reason the

146
00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,640
Speaker 3: Chicago Cubs play at Wrigley Field, and they would have

147
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,480
Speaker 3: their spring training on Catalina Island, an island that he bought.

148
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:15,200
Speaker 3: He loved Westerns, and one of the people who lived

149
00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:20,080
Speaker 3: on Catalina Island was or summered there. Rather was Zane Gray,

150
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,160
Speaker 3: the great Western writer, and there were a bunch of

151
00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,040
Speaker 3: Zane Gray movies that were made on the island, including

152
00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,600
Speaker 3: one where they brought over thirteen bull bison because they

153
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 3: were needed for the movie, and because they didn't know

154
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,880
Speaker 3: a lot about animal handling, particularly they did not know

155
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,720
Speaker 3: that male bison do not ever come into contact with

156
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,960
Speaker 3: one another except to have a violent dominance clash, which

157
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,600
Speaker 3: is how the thirteen mail bison all ended up escaping.

158
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,440
Speaker 3: And then Wrigley, in one of his other obsessions, thought

159
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,360
Speaker 3: it was Unchristian for these bachelor bison to be on

160
00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,360
Speaker 3: his island, so he brought over thirteen cows and created

161
00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,160
Speaker 3: the bison invasive species. Think. He also didn't know that

162
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 3: bison operate in harems, which was another thing that he

163
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,120
Speaker 3: was just badly wrong. Like it is true that like

164
00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,400
Speaker 3: being a billionaire lowers your IQ by thirty points and

165
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,720
Speaker 3: being the son of a billionaire lowers your IQ by

166
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,600
Speaker 3: forty points. Yeah, and and you know, Wriggly had all

167
00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,400
Speaker 3: kinds of esthetic ideas in the same way that like,

168
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,360
Speaker 3: you know, when when Ford built Fordlandia in Brazil, a

169
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,679
Speaker 3: planned community that was an identical copy of Dearborn Michigan,

170
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,120
Speaker 3: including the south facing windows, because he wouldn't let his

171
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,680
Speaker 3: architects explain that south of the equator you want north

172
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,600
Speaker 3: facing windows. Yeah, you know, he said, oh, well we're

173
00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,440
Speaker 3: you know, like he came up with all kinds of

174
00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 3: weird rules for rubber planters rubber harvesters in the Brazilian jungle,

175
00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:47,600
Speaker 3: and Wrigley came up with his own rules for people

176
00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:48,800
Speaker 3: living on his island.

177
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,280
Speaker 2: And one of them is no fast food.

178
00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,480
Speaker 3: And this turns out to be consequential in the story

179
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,000
Speaker 3: because the protagon of the story, who's Martin Hench, Who's

180
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,320
Speaker 3: this you know, two fisted, hard fighting forensic accountant who

181
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,600
Speaker 3: bust finance scams and his pal are on the island

182
00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,439
Speaker 3: in the party scene while his friend waits to vest

183
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,720
Speaker 3: from Yahoo, where he's been imprisoned by Dent of having

184
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,200
Speaker 3: sold them a company for millions of dollars, which he

185
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,200
Speaker 3: can only realize if he can sit tight and not

186
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,280
Speaker 3: murder any of his colleagues. While they buy and destroy

187
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,959
Speaker 3: every promising startup in Silicon Valley using the money from

188
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,400
Speaker 3: the Royal family of Saudi Arabia that was funneled to

189
00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 3: them by Masiyoshi Son and Soft Bank, they encounter a

190
00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 3: Ponzi scheme, and the Ponzi scheme is grounded in what

191
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 3: is an actual practice of people bringing fast food to

192
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,360
Speaker 3: Catalina Island. Like if you go to the K twelve

193
00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,480
Speaker 3: school and you have an away game, everyone brings back

194
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,960
Speaker 3: a sack of burgers for their friends because it's forbidden fruit.

195
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,000
Speaker 3: It's exotic, and this turns into a Ponzi scheme to

196
00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,960
Speaker 3: sell flash frozen burgers brought to the island by various means.

197
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,280
Speaker 3: And as with every Ponzi scheme, the thing that they're

198
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,800
Speaker 3: actually selling is the right to sell, the right to sell,

199
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 3: the right to sell burgers. Yeah, no one, No one

200
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 3: wants the burgers right. They want the down line. And

201
00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,000
Speaker 3: this is why Ponzi schemes always implode. And what Marty

202
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 3: realizes is that this Ponzi scheme is going on, and

203
00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,600
Speaker 3: that it has been cooked up by this guy whose

204
00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,480
Speaker 3: parties they've been going to, this real estate baron, and

205
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,920
Speaker 3: that he's done it the same way you might carefully

206
00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,680
Speaker 3: tend an ant colony for the sole purpose of burning

207
00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,800
Speaker 3: them with magnifying glasses. You build this enormous sort of

208
00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,360
Speaker 3: Rube Goldberg machine, a self licking ice cream cone, and

209
00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,240
Speaker 3: then you destroy it, you smash it. He's waiting for

210
00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,400
Speaker 3: this economy to collapse once he's extracted every penny from

211
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,079
Speaker 3: the island, which will add one percent to his net worth,

212
00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,320
Speaker 3: and so they do a controlled demolition of it. They

213
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,000
Speaker 3: foil this guy's plan, and this kicks in motion the

214
00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 3: real action in the novel, which is about the private

215
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:42,439
Speaker 3: prison system.

216
00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I love that. In preparing to read

217
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:49,599
Speaker 2: this chunk of the book where I learned quite a

218
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,840
Speaker 2: bit about the private prison system, I also learned a

219
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,080
Speaker 2: bunch about Catalina Island and this wealthy madman's insane dream.

220
00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,120
Speaker 2: I appreciate that about your books.

221
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Catalina Island, and we could go on.

222
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,600
Speaker 3: Marilyn Monroe is a fifteen year old child bride on

223
00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 3: Catalina Island. The CIA was founded on Catalina Island. The

224
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 3: channel between Catalina Island and the mainland is the deepest

225
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:18,080
Speaker 3: channel known to humanity and now dumped fifty thousand barrels

226
00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,520
Speaker 3: of DDT into it in iron that is rusting and

227
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,760
Speaker 3: that we have no way to remediate, and that will

228
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:30,960
Speaker 3: someday rupture and kill every bird downstream of that channel,

229
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 3: and also lots of fish. Catalina Island is this very

230
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 3: fraught place, this very beautiful place, very weird place. It's

231
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:40,959
Speaker 3: one of my favorite places to go. We just booked

232
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,040
Speaker 3: another trip there, and everything about it is is amazing

233
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,600
Speaker 3: and also terrible, but also beautiful.

234
00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and appreciate the way that you write that. And

235
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,719
Speaker 2: I appreciate the way that you kind of wrap us

236
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 2: into by first establishing this character, this friend of Martin's,

237
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,840
Speaker 2: who then winds up in a California Department of Corrections

238
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,200
Speaker 2: facility and taking us over a period of time as

239
00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,000
Speaker 2: it goes to the way I think most people think

240
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,440
Speaker 2: prisons still are, right, the kind of the vision of

241
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 2: like prisons that was formed from movies we watched in

242
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 2: the early two thousands, in the late nineties, where you know,

243
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,199
Speaker 2: they can be pretty ugly places, but like you have

244
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 2: family and they can come and visit you. Right, there's

245
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,000
Speaker 2: a big room where everybody gets together with their you know,

246
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,440
Speaker 2: we arrested developments maybe the most before this all changed,

247
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,520
Speaker 2: most recent kind of touchstone on this. And also it's

248
00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,319
Speaker 2: a place that has like a library, and not just

249
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,080
Speaker 2: a library, but like there are what comes with the

250
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 2: library is opportunities for people to like better themselves, to

251
00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,200
Speaker 2: learn things, to build skills, to potentially take some more

252
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,000
Speaker 2: agency of their situation. Right, That idea of like the

253
00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,240
Speaker 2: jailhouse lawyer who comes informed in all that, and that

254
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,760
Speaker 2: that world has really gone away to a significant extent.

255
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,440
Speaker 2: It's not completely gone everywhere, but certainly a lot of

256
00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,200
Speaker 2: those a lot of that has been pruned away. The

257
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,080
Speaker 2: ability of prisoners to have face to face contact with

258
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,440
Speaker 2: their loved ones and the ability of prisoners to like

259
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,960
Speaker 2: use a library is something that is a lot less

260
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,440
Speaker 2: common now than it used to be. And it's because

261
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,520
Speaker 2: a lot of these a lot of these kind of

262
00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:31,000
Speaker 2: attitudes that have characterized finance for so long or increasingly

263
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 2: become in common within the companies that run these facilities.

264
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, maybe this is a good place

265
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,240
Speaker 3: to explain what a bezel is and how this moment

266
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,040
Speaker 3: relates to what a bezel is. So I really think

267
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,520
Speaker 3: the title bezel is a banger. But I didn't realize

268
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,079
Speaker 3: until I started touring this book that if you say

269
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,840
Speaker 3: it aloud, it sounds like be eazel, which is the

270
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,800
Speaker 3: rectanglar on your phone screen. It's actually be easy z

271
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,760
Speaker 3: l e or a zed zed if you're a Canadian

272
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,160
Speaker 3: like me. And that is a wonderful term coined by

273
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:08,960
Speaker 3: John Kenneth Galbrath to describe the magic interval after the

274
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,920
Speaker 3: con artist has your money but before you know it's

275
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,839
Speaker 3: a con and in that moment, everybody feels better off.

276
00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 3: And one of the great bezel moments was the moment

277
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:26,080
Speaker 3: between the crash of the dot com crash of like

278
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 3: two thousand and two thousand and one and the crash

279
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 3: of the Great Financial Crisis, the housing crash, and in

280
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,760
Speaker 3: that period, all the money that people put into so

281
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,840
Speaker 3: called investments and into the market and that made them

282
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,960
Speaker 3: feel better off, made them feel like they had a pension,

283
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,000
Speaker 3: made them feel like they had savings, and so on,

284
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,440
Speaker 3: all that money was already gone. So this is one

285
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 3: of the things about a scam is it feels like

286
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 3: the moment that you lose the money is the moment

287
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,080
Speaker 3: you realize it's a scam, But you actually lose the

288
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,000
Speaker 3: money the minute you give it to the con artist.

289
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 3: The con artists might let you keep some of it

290
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,520
Speaker 3: for a little while, but they can take it away

291
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,880
Speaker 3: from you whenever they want. That was a moment of

292
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 3: kind of giddiness where none of us really wanted the

293
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,760
Speaker 3: dream to end. We knew that once the dream ended,

294
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,920
Speaker 3: we would all be poorer, although in reality we're all poorer.

295
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,280
Speaker 3: Right then, One of the things about that moment is

296
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 3: it was the moment when another long con came doe,

297
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,560
Speaker 3: and that was the long con of the California three

298
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,520
Speaker 3: strikes rule. So there had been a couple of quite

299
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 3: ghastly murders of young people, a teenager and a child

300
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 3: in California that were weaponized by some fairly cruel racists

301
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,760
Speaker 3: to pass a law in California that says that if

302
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,320
Speaker 3: you were convicted of three felonies, you would go to

303
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 3: prison for the rest of your life with no chance

304
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,640
Speaker 3: of parole. And you know, this is California, which is

305
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,560
Speaker 3: a place that's quite allergic to hire taxes, famously the

306
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 3: home Proposition thirteen, where you know, we can't raise our

307
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 3: property taxes unless something like seventy percent of us go

308
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,280
Speaker 3: to the polls and specifically vote for it, which is

309
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,040
Speaker 3: why our cities are so cash strapped. And so in

310
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,440
Speaker 3: this place where you have these anti tax extremist types

311
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 3: and you have this increasing tax burden associated with locking

312
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 3: up an ever larger fraction of the population for the

313
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,080
Speaker 3: rest of their lives, you have this unstoppable force and

314
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,760
Speaker 3: this immovable object on a collision course with one another,

315
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,280
Speaker 3: because at a certain point, you're just going to have

316
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,720
Speaker 3: prisons that are so full that you're going to have

317
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 3: to do something to relieve them. You're going to have

318
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 3: to build more prisons. You're going to have to reduce

319
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,800
Speaker 3: the cost of operating those prisons. Something's going to give.

320
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 3: In the end, what ended up giving was a Supreme

321
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,320
Speaker 3: Court case that rule that just being in prison in

322
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,200
Speaker 3: California violated your Eighth Amendment rights against cruel and unusual punishment.

323
00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 3: That every California prison basically constituted a violation of the

324
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 3: Eighth Amendment. And California went through the you know, the

325
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 3: five stages of grieving, which I know they don't replicate

326
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,359
Speaker 3: that it's not real, we don't. That's not really a

327
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 3: neat description of exactly what happens when we grieve. But

328
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,800
Speaker 3: they certainly went through a period of denial and bargaining,

329
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,520
Speaker 3: including mooting at one point sending prisoners to like Arizona,

330
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 3: so sending California State prisoners to Arizona and paying Arizona

331
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,320
Speaker 3: to take them off their hands. And as all of

332
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,080
Speaker 3: this stuff was going on, some grifters saw great opportunity,

333
00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,240
Speaker 3: and that opportunity was to cut costs in the prisons

334
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,239
Speaker 3: and facilitate moving prisoners further and further away from their

335
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 3: families by replacing all of the services in the prison

336
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,000
Speaker 3: with a tablet that you would get for free. Yeah,

337
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 3: So remember you know, the iPad comes out in two

338
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,760
Speaker 3: thousand and eight. Steve Jobs is touting it as the future.

339
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:56,000
Speaker 5: Of the world.

340
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,720
Speaker 3: Media companies are going crazy. They finally found their daddy

341
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,679
Speaker 3: figure who's going to save them from tech by you know,

342
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 3: siloing everything in an app that isn't part of the web.

343
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,360
Speaker 3: And all we can hear about is tablets of the future.

344
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 3: And this sounds quite futuristic, right, We'll put tablet. We'll

345
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 3: give every prisoner a free tablet. It's like one laptop

346
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,000
Speaker 3: per child, but for prisoners. And those tablets will replace

347
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 3: the library and in person visits and phone calls and

348
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:32,880
Speaker 3: music and TV and continuing education and all of it's

349
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,560
Speaker 3: going to cost. And it's going to cost a lot

350
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,800
Speaker 3: more than you would pay outside of the outside of

351
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 3: the prison for the same services. So, you know, four

352
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,040
Speaker 3: bucks a minute for poster stamp sized video instead of

353
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,680
Speaker 3: free zoom calls, Yeah, music for three bucks instead of one.

354
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 3: And then, of course these companies are very grifty, and

355
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 3: so they're constantly restructuring, going bankrupt, being bought, buying one another.

356
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,720
Speaker 3: And every time that happens, the company changes its name

357
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 3: and says, oh, we're no longer the same company. We

358
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 3: no longer supply all of those services. We are wiping

359
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,800
Speaker 3: out all of your data, and you're gonna have to

360
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,720
Speaker 3: buy it again. And so, you know, if that's music,

361
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,399
Speaker 3: it means that the song that you pay three dollars for,

362
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,600
Speaker 3: that you bought by working in the prison workshop for

363
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 3: twenty five cents an hour is gone and you're in

364
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,280
Speaker 3: prison for remember this is California, the rest of your life.

365
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,360
Speaker 3: And so you're going to have to go back and

366
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 3: earn more money to get.

367
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:31,240
Speaker 2: That song again.

368
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 3: But also the five dollars your kid paid to have

369
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,920
Speaker 3: the birthday card that they wrote for you scant because

370
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 3: you can no longer get parcels or mail. Your family

371
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 3: have to pay to have their letters scanned, or they

372
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 3: have to pay to send you email. And so your kid,

373
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 3: who's growing up with the principal breadwinner, has paid five

374
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,920
Speaker 3: dollars to have their handmade birthday card scanned. That goes

375
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,240
Speaker 3: away too when the prison changes vendors. And it's a

376
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:05,120
Speaker 3: kind of perfect parable for the indifferent sadism of capital,

377
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 3: like the degree to which the pursuit of profit drives

378
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,879
Speaker 3: people to be far more cruel than mere ideology.

379
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 2: You know, yes, yeah, that's so important because like, prisons

380
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 2: were not nice before, they were not humane before. But

381
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 2: someone who is simply trying to run a government prison

382
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: facility would not think of the idea of doing like

383
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 2: a doing like a shell game yank away of people's

384
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 2: music after letting them buy it and then make them

385
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 2: buy it again. That's like, that's not something that like

386
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 2: a bad prison guard comes up with. That's only something

387
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,880
Speaker 2: that somebody from somebody from finance comes up with.

388
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 3: Well, and and you know, you it helps if the

389
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 3: way that you're running these prisons is by employing guards

390
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,919
Speaker 3: through a staffing agency, and so you don't even have

391
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 3: to contend with the rising costs associated with staff turnover

392
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 3: when prisoners go bug fuck crazy because you took all

393
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,679
Speaker 3: their shit away. Right, those guards are not your employees,

394
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 3: and it's not your problem. The whole thing is is

395
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,120
Speaker 3: kind of running at several layers of indirection and remove.

396
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 3: It's what Douglas Rushkoff calls going meta. You know, the

397
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,679
Speaker 3: don't drive a cab found Uber, don't found uber invest

398
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 3: in Uber, don't invest in Uber, invest in uber derivatives.

399
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,120
Speaker 3: Don't investor in uber derivatives, invest in uber derivative futures. Right,

400
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,160
Speaker 3: like go meta, like get further and further away from

401
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 3: the useful activities. Yeah, you are insulated from the consequences

402
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 3: of whatever it.

403
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 4: Is you do.

404
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 2: And that's such a it's part of it's like a

405
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 2: recipe for breaking things right, because the people who are closest,

406
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 2: not that they're always good at it in the case

407
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 2: of prison guards, but the people who are closest to

408
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 2: the useful activity tend to know how to make things

409
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 2: work right. Whereas the further away you get from that,

410
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 2: the more likely your ideas are to break things that

411
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 2: you wouldn't have even thought of. And again, but for

412
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 2: that kind of person, everything you break is usually an

413
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 2: opportunity for financializing something else.

414
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.

415
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 3: The extent to which finance is the true banality of

416
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 3: evil is hard to overstate. Yeah, you know, we think, well,

417
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 3: we've heard a lot when you read about the Holocaust

418
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 3: and World War Two, you hear a lot about the

419
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 3: cruelty of Nazis, and no one's going to say, well,

420
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 3: the Nazis weren't cruel and the ideological cruelty of Nazis. So,

421
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 3: for example, there were moments where, rather than transporting troops

422
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 3: to decisive battles, they were shipping Jews to concentration camps

423
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 3: on those same trains and losing battles so they could.

424
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 2: Murder more Jews.

425
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, But up the road from Auschwitz was another

426
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 3: private concentration camp run by ig Farben called Monowitz. YEP

427
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 3: and ig Farbin were war profiteers. They were they were

428
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 3: gouging the Wehrmacht on war material that they were manufacturing

429
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 3: with slave labor, and they bought thousands of slaves from Auschwitz,

430
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 3: preferring women and children because they were cheaper, and they

431
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 3: worked them to death. And the lifespan of a slave

432
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 3: in Monowitz was only three months before they were worked

433
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 3: to death. It was half of what it was in Auschwitz.

434
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 3: The conditions were so bad at Monowitz that the SS

435
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 3: guards who were seconded to it from Auschwitz wrote to

436
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 3: Berlin to complain about the cruelty of Monowitz. At the

437
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 3: end of the war, in Nuremberg, twenty four Ig Farben

438
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 3: executives were tried for this. Their defense was that they

439
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 3: had a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize returns,

440
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 3: and nineteen of them were acquitted on that basis.

441
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, God, and this is you know, before the Chicago

442
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 2: School guys had really like fully taken over. So this

443
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: this idea that like that was really the only responsibility

444
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 2: that a business had, even above a moral responsibility, was

445
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: much less established. Like the more you get into how many,

446
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: particularly of the money people got off at Nuremberg, like

447
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 2: it's maddening stuff. Yeah, indeed, and it is, like I

448
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 2: think one an accurate way to look at the Holocaust

449
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: from the perspective of those guys is the mining of populations,

450
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: like mining them to death. That's really how a lot

451
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: of this like because a huge chunk of especially the

452
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: early stages of Nazi oppression of like starting with German Jews,

453
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 2: but going beyond that as they conquered more land, was

454
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 2: the appropriation of businesses and property, right, like that was

455
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 2: it was, it was mining human beings. And that attitude

456
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 2: is persistent. Right, It's not just a thing that happens

457
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: in Nazi Germany. It happens whenever you let people who

458
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: don't have any sort of human concern take control of

459
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 2: every aspect of life.

460
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 3: And this is some of the structural stuff that's going

461
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 3: on in the book. So my editor on this book

462
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 3: is this great guy, Patrick Nielsen Hayden who's been my

463
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 3: editor since my first novel. He and I met on

464
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 3: a BBS in the nineteen eighties, so I've really known

465
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 3: him most of my life.

466
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

467
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 3: And Patrick, when he gave me the editorial note on

468
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: my first novel, he said something like the way that

469
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 3: science fiction works is you have a world that is

470
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 3: like a thought experiment world, and you have a character

471
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: who's a microcosm for that world, and they are like

472
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: a big gear that's the world, and a little gear

473
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 3: that's the character. And if the microcosm meshes correctly with

474
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 3: the macrocosm, then as the person spins around and around

475
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: doing their plot stuff, they spin around enough times that

476
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 3: the world, the big gear that they're meshed with, makes

477
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 3: a full revolution. So you have this microcosm macrocosm thing.

478
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 3: And often when a book doesn't work, it's because the

479
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 3: microcosmic macrocosmic correspondences aren't sharp enough. There's some way in

480
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 3: which those teeth aren't meshing. One of the things that

481
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: this book tries to do, and that the Martin Hinch

482
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 3: books generally try to do, because they're all about these

483
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: these finance scams, these high tech finance scams set in

484
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 3: different eras from the nineteen eighties through the twenty twenties,

485
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 3: is that they try to create a series of these

486
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,719
Speaker 3: similar correspondences between small scams and big scams. You know,

487
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 3: they use the small scam as a kind of setup

488
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 3: or a frame or like a cognitive tool for understanding

489
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 3: the much bigger scam. And so that small scam, that

490
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: Ponzi scheme, where you have a person who is setting

491
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: out just for shits and giggles to make some money

492
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 3: by destroying a bunch of other people's lives and viewing

493
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 3: those people as not as people but as as things,

494
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: as a means to an end, not as an end

495
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 3: unto themselves, ends up creating this sadistic, brutal, pointless, and

496
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 3: deliberately unsustainable situation that he knows is going to hurt

497
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: all these other people. And the way that he's able

498
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 3: to do it is by simply not considering the people

499
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: who are enmeshed in the scheme as fully people entitled

500
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 3: to their own sort of moral consideration. And in the

501
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 3: same way that is that's like a microcosm for the

502
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 3: kinds of decisions that are made when people go on

503
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: to found these prison tech companies and these other companies

504
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: that do these these ghastly things.

505
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: And it's it's also very accurate to how an unfortunate

506
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: number of just like regular people in society and in

507
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: government think about the victims of these schemes. Like when

508
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: you when you try to talk about how unfair and

509
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 2: how much worse this situation has gotten, it's like, well,

510
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: they're prisoners, they're being punished, you know, as if, as

511
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: if that makes it all okay.

512
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of a it's kind of a like

513
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 3: a much more extreme and therefore much more easily spotted

514
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 3: version of caveat emptor or you know, not your not

515
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 3: your keys, not your coins. You know, these ideas that

516
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 3: if if something bad is happening to you, it must

517
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: be because you did something bad.

518
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 4: Right.

519
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 3: That the kind of providential ethics. And I think that

520
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 3: the work that that does for people is it helps

521
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: them put their own anxiety about their own future to rest,

522
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: because you know, the if you are worried that something

523
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: bad might happen to you, and you can convince yourself

524
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 3: that the reason that something bad happened to someone else

525
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: is that they had a deficiency right, they committed a sin,

526
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: they were foolish, then you don't have to worry about

527
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 3: it happening to you. You know, I a couple of

528
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 3: times in the last decade I have been the victim

529
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: of various kinds of con and I am also someone

530
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 3: who's written a lot about cons So I've been successfully

531
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 3: fished once and I had a phone scammer talked me

532
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 3: out of my credit card number once. And I always

533
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: write about it when it happens, and I write about

534
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 3: it in part because I want to make sure that

535
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: people understand that, you know, you're not too smart to

536
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 3: be conned, anyone can be conned and so on, and

537
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 3: I think that's an inoculant against getting conned. But I

538
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 3: also do it because the reactions are a kind of

539
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 3: sociological study.

540
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 4: Right.

541
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 3: If you want to see into the minds of tech

542
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 3: bros who justify the terrible things that they are doing

543
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: or planning to do, or fantasizing about doing or working

544
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 3: on to other people, look at their fraud apologetics where

545
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 3: they say, you know, oh, that was just a business

546
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 3: and you know you had a caveat emptor or you

547
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 3: were lazy, or you were foolish, or you know, like

548
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: you did something deficient and that's why it happened, and

549
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: so you deserved it. And that means, on the one hand,

550
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 3: it's never going to happen to me because I don't

551
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 3: deserve it. And on the other hand, if I ever

552
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 3: do it to someone else, that's fine because if they

553
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 3: fall victim to it, then they must deserve it. The

554
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: old con artist saying that you can't cheat an honest man.

555
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: As a version of this, Yeah, and it's I mean,

556
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: that's like it's such a limited view of it, right,

557
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: because it's true that, like there are some cons that

558
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: you can't trick someone into unless they have a little

559
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: desire for some larceny, right, But like an increasing number

560
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: of cons are just like a company using your bank

561
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: phone number calling you and telling you you've been defrauded,

562
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: and you give them information because you're not used to

563
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 2: the or or somebody calls using the voice of your

564
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: child and says that they need a ransom payment. Right,

565
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: you're not there's not like dishonesty in your heart because

566
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: you don't want your kid to be kidnapped. You're just

567
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: not ready for what tech has been able to do,

568
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 2: you know.

569
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 3: And while there are some of those cons where they

570
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 3: you know they're they're playing on your cupidity or your dishonesty. Yeah,

571
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 3: to make money off of you. Even in those instances,

572
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 3: it is downstream of a system where it feels like

573
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: you can't survive unless you're cheating, right, like the one

574
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 3: of the things. And so multi level marketing is actually

575
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: a theme that runs through all of these books. That

576
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 3: The next is set in the nineteen eighties and it's

577
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 3: it's about a faith scam. It's an early PC company

578
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: I made up called the Three Wise Men, run by

579
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 3: a Mormon bishop, a Catholic priest, and an Orthodox rabbi

580
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: who use, you know, affiliate marketing through congregations to prey

581
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 3: on their own faith groups. And one of the things

582
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: about these Ponzi schemes, these pyramid schemes, is that they

583
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: take the only capital that working people have, which is

584
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: social capital, right the relationships they have among one another,

585
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 3: and they convince them that it is entrepreneurial and therefore

586
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: virtuous to instrumentalize your relationship to the other women in

587
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 3: your life who help you look after your kids, or

588
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: to your coreligionists who you can turn to if things

589
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: go really bad at work or with your family or whatever.

590
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 3: And that turning that into a transaction that you can milk,

591
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 3: you know. Turning those people into a down line who

592
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 3: have to recruit other people to make you whole so

593
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 3: that you can feed your own upline is just hustling.

594
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 3: It's just your shot at the American dream. You know,

595
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: Spike Lee telling you that investing in shit coins as

596
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 3: building black wealth.

597
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I it is like the the fact, and

598
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: I think low key, this is one of the top

599
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: couple of problems that we have in this society because

600
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: it feeds into everything else. It's like it's a I

601
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,239
Speaker 2: think that's probably why it runs through so much of

602
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 2: your work, because this the scam economy, is behind every

603
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: and it's increasingly becoming everything right, and there's this kind

604
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: of pernicious effect where by people don't the more people

605
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: are victimized by this, both the less they trust other

606
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: people and the more the more they begin to accept that, like, well,

607
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: this is just how you get by in our society, right,

608
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: Why shouldn't we take away prison libraries and replace them

609
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: with more expensive kindle that we can yank away at

610
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: any moment. Everyone's always nickel and diming me. I'm always

611
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: getting more money taken away from me. By these same people.

612
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: And I'm not even in prison, you know.

613
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 3: Right, why shouldn't there be junk fees in prison if

614
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 3: there's junk fees everywhere else, If you're if you're you know,

615
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 3: local water company that's owned by your city is sold

616
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 3: off to uh, you know, plug a hole in the

617
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 3: budget because you can't raise taxes. And then they start

618
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 3: charging you a convenience fee to pay your your water

619
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 3: bill with a check, and then a different convenience fee

620
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 3: to pay your water bill with a credit card, and

621
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 3: a third convenience fee to pay your water bill in

622
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 3: person with cash. And then you realize that, like there

623
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 3: that none of these are convenience fees. They're just they're

624
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 3: just fees.

625
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just more money. Yeah yeah, I mean we're

626
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 2: in we're in a pretty infuriating situation here, and you

627
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: get to that in the bezel, you really get that

628
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: across well as this guy is trying to deal with

629
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: the and and it kind of brought home to me

630
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: the horror of like having someone you care for in

631
00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: this situation and seeing like their avenues for any kind

632
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 2: of relief edged out chipped away at for the profit

633
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: of some guy who will never notice the money in

634
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 2: his bank account.

635
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I mean, and you know that, unlike Steve Brucet,

636
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 3: I well, like Steve brust in some of those volumes,

637
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 3: I told this story from the perspective of a fairly

638
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 3: powerful person who's got a lot of agency, only because

639
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: it gives you the opportunity to tell a story that

640
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 3: at least holds out the possibility of some relief. I'll

641
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 3: leave it to the reader to find out what actually

642
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 3: happens at the end. And you know, there have been

643
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: successful prisoner uprisings that have been led by working people

644
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 3: who are serving long terms, but for the most part

645
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 3: those uprisings, we never even hear about them. You know,

646
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 3: there was a prison labor strike before lockdown. I believe

647
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 3: it was twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen. There's a national

648
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 3: prison labor strike, and it barely made a dent in

649
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 3: anyone's consciousness. It was, you know, ultimately one of the

650
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: largest strikes in modern American history. You know, there're thousands

651
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 3: and thousands of workers were on strike, and we didn't

652
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: even hear about it. Because there's such control over the

653
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 3: narrative about prisons and prisoners that's run by the carcerl system.

654
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 3: And so you know, by telling this story about someone

655
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: who goes into prison already a millionaire and who has

656
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 3: a friend on the outside who's kind of a hustler

657
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 3: and you know, a pal and who is someone who

658
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 3: knows how to finagle the system, I can spin out

659
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 3: a yarn that takes you, like back to Patrick Nielsen

660
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 3: Hayden and the Big Gear driving the Little Gear takes

661
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: you on a three hundred and sixty degree tour of

662
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 3: how fucked up the system is rather than just the

663
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 3: ant's i view or the worm's eye view that most

664
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 3: people get because they aren't even able to explore all

665
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 3: the avenues and run into their dead ends because they're

666
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 3: just stuck where they are.

667
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, this has been wonderful. I want to again let

668
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 2: people know your book, The Bezel is in stores now.

669
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: You can purchase it wherever fine books are sold. Do

670
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: you have a preferred URL for buying it?

671
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 3: The Dashbezel dot org is fine, but wherever people want

672
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 3: to get it. Yeah, it's a national best seller for

673
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 3: the third week running.

674
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 4: It's very good.

675
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 2: That's great.

676
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 3: Whoever feeds into the USA Today bestseller.

677
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: List you apparently that's wonderful. Yeah, well, Corey, doctor, do

678
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: you have anything else you wanted to get to before

679
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: we roll out today?

680
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 3: Well, I guess you know, if you want to follow

681
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 3: the work that I do. Pluralistic dot net is a

682
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 3: newsletter that I write every day or almost every day,

683
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: and it's open access it so that means it's Creative

684
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 3: Commons licensed. You can reproduce it. You can reproduce it

685
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 3: and sell it if you want. And there's no DRM,

686
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 3: there's no tracking, there's no you know ads, there's no anything.

687
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 3: It's you know, black type on a white background. You'll

688
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 3: never get to pop up asking you whether you want

689
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 3: to subscribe to my mailing list or whatever. Yeah, and

690
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: the email version of it, you can get it as

691
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 3: an email list. The email version also no tracking. I

692
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 3: can't tell when you've opened the email or anything. I

693
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 3: keep no statistics, and I just it's a letter in

694
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 3: a bottle I write and throw into the ocean every morning.

695
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: And it's great. That's so much fun to write.

696
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: It's a great letter in a bottle. You've been talking

697
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 2: writing a lot, talking a lot about AI lately and

698
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: kind of the how that all feeds into a lot

699
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: of this stuff you've been covering about or the stuff

700
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: you write about often about you know, bezels and scam economies.

701
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: And I've really enjoyed getting your take on that because

702
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 2: I think you're one of the one of the people

703
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 2: who hasn't lost their minds over all this stuff.

704
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, I think we're really like so

705
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 3: that we hear so much about AI disinformation and the

706
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 3: people who have like most fallen prey to AID information

707
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 3: are bosses who've been convinced that AI is good enough

708
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 3: to fire you and replace you with and you know,

709
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: it's it's not true. It doesn't mean they won't do it, right,

710
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 3: but it's not true. Yeah, that's that's actually kind of

711
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 3: the worst of all worlds, right, technological unemployment without without

712
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 3: actual replacement. It's just it's just another basil. It's a yeah,

713
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 3: it's a It's that long moment where you think you've

714
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 3: zeroed out your labor force costs, but you haven't realized

715
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: that you're no longer productive because the chatbot keeps, you know,

716
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: as in the case of Air Canada, just like telling

717
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 3: people they can get refunds they're not entitled to. And

718
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 3: then you know, regulators come along and smack you around

719
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 3: and charge you, you know, find you for your chatbot

720
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 3: having lied to people about their bereavement, flight discounts and stuff.

721
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to to that moment hitting.

722
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: I guess because where we I mean, I do kind

723
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: of think we are sort of nearer to the bursting

724
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 2: than we are to the peak of the bubble right now,

725
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: But I guess we'll see.

726
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 3: Well, remember, the market can remain solvent irrational rather longer

727
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 3: than you can remain solvent.

728
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

729
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 3: So I've been predicting the collapse of the London housing bubble,

730
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 3: for example, for a very long time. We're nowhere near it. Yeah,

731
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 3: so that is my humbling lesson. It is definitely a bubble.

732
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 3: It is going to burst when it's going to burst,

733
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 3: and is very very very hard to predict.

734
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, what will burst with it? Yeah? Well, Corey, thank

735
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: you so much for being on the show. Again. Everybody,

736
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: check out the Bezel Wonderful book, and check out Corey's

737
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: other wonderful books like walk Away. That's the episode. I

738
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: have a good one, Thanks Robert.

739
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 6: Hello, everyone, welcome to the podcast today. We have a

740
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 6: very interesting issue. You're very lucky to be joined by Onomo,

741
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 6: who we've heard from before who is a minister who

742
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 6: is hindering in the National Unity Government of Burma or Myanmar.

743
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 6: Both of those words are okay, And we're talking about

744
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 6: the situation of Rhinga people and the development sort of

745
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 6: happened in Rakaine State since I guess since the beginning

746
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 6: of Operation ten twenty seven. So welcome to the show.

747
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, thanks for having me, and it's

748
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 4: good to be back with you to this show.

749
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 6: Thank you. Yeah, no, it's wonderful to have you back

750
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 6: and we're very fortunate. So I wonder if we could

751
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 6: start by summarizing for listeners the things that have happened

752
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 6: in the last few months in Rakaine State, because there

753
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 6: have been some massive changes since maybe listeners will last

754
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 6: aware of what was happening there.

755
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, thank you. Since the coup, the over on

756
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 4: and off bikes in the Arkan Army and there, and

757
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 4: the Malasia hunters process in Rakinda State, however, in the

758
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 4: interests of the of the of the humanitary and neat

759
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 4: both parties came to enter to a ceasefire peven In between, however,

760
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 4: the fight against the military junta in and Mark started

761
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 4: in different part of me and Mark continued to be

762
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 4: accelerating and most recently the ten twenty seven and followed

763
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 4: by others operations in in crime estate has has been

764
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 4: has been quite rapidly spreading across the country and that's

765
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 4: definitely went through a kinda state where resumed to target

766
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 4: the the the junta in its polotopical objective to be

767
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 4: to be reaching uh uh. That's the situations we are

768
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 4: today that the Arcan Army has been in very goods

769
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 4: to be dismantling the Hunter's forces in our kind of state,

770
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 4: and so far since Operation twenty seven ten twenty seven

771
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 4: staled more than half of the township districts in our

772
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 4: kind of state has been ceased by the Arkhan Army,

773
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 4: including some of those were majority of Ringa lifts. And

774
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 4: it's continued to be under in the very literarating situations.

775
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, at the end, they've they've even sunk Hunter ships

776
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 6: or captured them in some cases. I think it's been

777
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 6: a bit of a that there was a video that

778
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 6: was quite like maybe not viruls around word. Certainly I

779
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 6: saw a lot but of border guard forces right, which

780
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 6: are like a militia's allied to the Hunter and fleeing

781
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 6: into Bangladesh.

782
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 4: This this another the border guard process are from mostly

783
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 4: from militaries. They are tree militaries. Their uniforms are changed

784
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 4: into reguard force due to different agreement with that exists

785
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 4: between two states in allocating. It's true along the border

786
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 4: side and the border guard forces are one of the

787
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 4: most primary forces that's deported through Highen and run the

788
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 4: Rohingia's sources in twenty seven and make them flee. So

789
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 4: six years later they saying the GPS who committed to

790
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 4: the crimes against the Rhinga atrocities that include crimes against

791
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 4: humanity and war crimes had to flee to Bangladesh in

792
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 4: a quite similar way to refuge. And so it's sort

793
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 4: of karma or whatever you put it in a way

794
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 4: and the perceptions and reality of course when it's it's

795
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 4: kind of confrontations between the two groups Arcan Army and

796
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 4: the military compless sources. The reality that has been defined

797
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 4: by most of ours ninianmar and the course that we

798
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 4: used to believe that the Burmis malitary is a strong

799
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 4: vote by human resource and equipment and then in reality

800
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 4: they are very weak and our army has proved by

801
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 4: dismantling a various battalion in country battalion and even capturing

802
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 4: alive like second ice commanding officer in the whole of

803
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 4: the kind of state. And also many senior level officer

804
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 4: has been has has been killed over this. That so

805
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 4: the reality perception has been deeper on the NMR malanitary

806
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: when we look it from from external perspective.

807
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think just in case listeners aren't familiar,

808
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 6: it can be very confusing if you don't read about

809
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 6: this stuff all the time. It's sort of an alphabet

810
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 6: soup of organizations, and especially with reference to Rahinga and

811
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 6: Rekind State, because we have Rahinga armed groups, so armed

812
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 6: groups which drove mostly for Ngar people that don't necessarily

813
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 6: represent them all, and then we have the AA. Son,

814
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 6: can you explain the AA's relationship to Kind State and

815
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 6: then how they relate to Rehinga people.

816
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 4: He has been established in two thousand and nine with

817
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 4: aims to be having confederations and not less than war,

818
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 4: which is another special regions now with a special autonomy,

819
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 4: and it has been led by some young people and

820
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 4: it has been quite a leadership as well within their

821
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 4: kind political structrum. And he has been growing very apidally

822
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 4: and the acceptance of the of the people, particularly or

823
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 4: kind people has been very high. Therefore, the resource allocations

824
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 4: that he got from human resource to other resources to

825
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 4: be rapidly coping with that group growth has high end

826
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 4: that put them in a position to be standing in

827
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 4: front of Hunta in a very stronger positions and defeat

828
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 4: them and very rapidly. And of course the Arkhan Army

829
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 4: which we refer here as AE, is not as inclusive

830
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 4: as ra kind. Ra kind of state is very diverse

831
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 4: and it has got a multiple ethnic group. The largest

832
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 4: ethnic group is Rakin religiously with these people and to

833
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 4: which the majority of army's leadership derived from there, and

834
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 4: the second largest majority, which are the Rowinga and Toroinga,

835
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 4: are still the second largest majority in the rack kind

836
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 4: of state. Despite a milion being pushed off to Bangladesh

837
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 4: in twenty seventeen and several hundred thousand spread it across

838
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 4: the region, and the inclusivity in an Arcan Army is

839
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 4: still still not there. When we talk about Ringa, that's

840
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 4: know that there might be some small a small number

841
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 4: of Rhingias in different battalions of Arkan Army and the

842
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 4: administrative units that they're building at a very crossroot level. However,

843
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 4: the the the Rhinga need to be included both by

844
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 4: functions and in order to have to describe that relationship

845
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 4: and inclusively between the Rhenia people and the Arkan army.

846
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's that Arakan Is that Rakhan is the

847
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 6: name of the area before it was called Rakayan state?

848
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 6: Is that right?

849
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 4: Correct? It's even it's before Burma became Burma. Arkhan was

850
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 4: a king kingdom and it used to have its own

851
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 4: palace and its diversity, it's high page and it's natural resources.

852
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 4: And then of course the Burmese colonizations happened to Burma

853
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 4: and h and later on Kan has been named as

854
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 4: rakinda state.

855
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

856
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 6: So it describes a geographical rather than ethnic identity, right,

857
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 6: which is distinct from some of the other revolutionary organizations

858
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 6: like rank or any or what have you.

859
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 4: I think there are similarities and as well as there

860
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 4: are differences when when when you put them together, and

861
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 4: and from a diversity perspective of a kind of statey,

862
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 4: it's very diverse compared to other ethnic groups. And and

863
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 4: also it's politically very complex. Uh So, the the the

864
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 4: the but over their overall similarities as well, like like

865
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 4: you know, all are fighting to defeat the hunter, to

866
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 4: to end the dictatorship in Meanmar. But the the the

867
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 4: the primary thing here is the self interminations and self autonomy,

868
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 4: like people want to decide to determine what is their

869
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 4: present and official look like, how they want to treat

870
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 4: with their past. That's the the the the the aspect.

871
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 4: But of course the the like to my to the

872
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 4: best of my knowledge, these ethnic resistance organizations, both political

873
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 4: and and and and the armed groups have never claimed

874
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 4: that they want to separate from me and Mar. Yes,

875
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 4: it's coming together in a different way. The holding together

876
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 4: would be in a different way.

877
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, And even when they speak to Bama people who

878
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 6: are like the majority ethnicity and the ethnicity from which

879
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 6: the junta's leadership had rule, and like they tell me,

880
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 6: they're committed to a federal and like a federal Mianma

881
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 6: with autonomy for these different regions and groups. And that's

882
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 6: something that has held that coalition together.

883
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: Right.

884
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, approximately more than fifty million populations majority are Aburmese Buddhists,

885
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 4: and they have been having this Buddhist supremacy and like

886
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 4: Bama's supremacy over ethnic and religious minorities across the country,

887
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 4: and of course Katchin current and others and went to

888
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 4: Desromine when their future by by themselves and have the

889
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 4: equality both their functions and number. And that's where we're

890
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 4: having these seventy years long civil war. You know, that's

891
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 4: came to collective revolutions in twenty twenty one, and history

892
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 4: really speaking, people have been fighting in Enmark for equality,

893
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 4: justice and to end the cycle of impunity for the

894
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 4: last seventeen plus years.

895
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 6: Great, I think that's a great place to take our

896
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 6: first advertising break. All right, and we're back. I think

897
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 6: he did an excellent job of explaining the history the

898
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 6: Goddess here, and people will be very familiar with the

899
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 6: trustees committed by the Burmese military and its proxies against

900
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 6: the Rhinga people, I hope. But one thing that's been

901
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,240
Speaker 6: happening recently which are particularly appalling is the forced recruitment

902
00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 6: of Bahinga Peoplehinga people by that same military, right, can

903
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 6: you explain what's been going on?

904
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 4: So the the conscriptions law has been reactivated. It has

905
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 4: been there large by the previous military cats, but it

906
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 4: has not been active and so since the Hunter has

907
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 4: been falling apart and collapsing. Not only were the kind

908
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 4: of state across the country there wherever they fight, they lose,

909
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 4: and they are battalions by battalion. That's uh, that's running

910
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,439
Speaker 4: away the to Thailand, running away to India, running away

911
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 4: to Bangladesh and and putting white black. And there are

912
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 4: several casualties. And apparently the Hunter became the largest military

913
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 4: equipment supplier to the to the revolutionary force where we

914
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 4: did not get we did not get international support when

915
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 4: when young people actress, models and writers points decided to

916
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 4: to go to the forest to do to fight against

917
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 4: this cunter and there was little to no international support.

918
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 4: And we have been struggling to to to equip ourselve

919
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 4: to to fight this center. And and of course the

920
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 4: the resilience and the courage that young people had and

921
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 4: the tactical and strategy capacity that the ethnic Resistance organization

922
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 4: had in combined became a factor. UH to have an

923
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 4: strategic sourcing of the military equipment and Hunter like battalion

924
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 4: by battalion. You don't need to buy the weapons and

925
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 4: military tang and things like that. You you go and

926
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 4: fight one battalion and they run away or they die

927
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 4: and then you take over the That's how the the

928
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 4: the whole old thing started in in In then when

929
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 4: they are losing uh, they reactivated the conscriptions law and

930
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 4: started to in the of making mandustry everyone to be

931
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 4: serving by force in the military by terms. And of

932
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 4: course when it's come to a kind of state or

933
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 4: a kind of state. The six hundred thousand RINGA and

934
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 4: T one hundred and fifty to sixty thousand of them

935
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 4: has been in concentration camp, consolidated in one place with

936
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 4: movement restrictions, no access to education, healthcare and things like that,

937
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 4: where they have been living more than a decade in

938
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 4: some of those camp and villages where those people who

939
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 4: are not in the camp as well has been imposed

940
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 4: by additional movement restrictions, so you don't need to really

941
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 4: go and mobilize and people to be forcefully recruiting. And

942
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 4: at the beginning the junta went to them and to

943
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 4: give them sort of show them incentive of like you

944
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,399
Speaker 4: will become the citizens and will give that and we'll

945
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 4: give that, and you need to fight against the Arcan

946
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 4: army and of course the grassroot the leader community leader

947
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 4: responded in a way that they need to respond to

948
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 4: reject the the the requests from from the from the military,

949
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 4: hometown and mality started to of course, I posted by

950
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 4: using the force and as I mentioned earlier, they will

951
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 4: need to like when you have consultilated people that amount

952
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 4: of young people doing nothing and you just go and

953
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 4: catch them and put them on a truck, and some

954
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 4: of them don't know where they are going because their

955
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 4: whole life has been in this camp. Like when you're

956
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 4: six years old and you are now eighteen and you're

957
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 4: it's an industry for you to be serving in the

958
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 4: military and you don't know what is happening in our

959
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 4: side of your camp. Because yeah, so that's how really

960
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 4: the the and then we got these news and of

961
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 4: course we have been talking different community leaders and the

962
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 4: community has been approaching to us as a government and

963
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 4: we make uh. There are several media coverage as well.

964
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 4: Then the military started to say that these Bengalis are

965
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 4: not referring to the Hinga, are not the cities. Therefore

966
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 4: there is no way that we make them served in

967
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 4: the in the military. So those are fakings that. So

968
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 4: they use these States propaganda TV channel and the state

969
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 4: newspaper which is now under control of SUCK to deny that.

970
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 4: And on seventh October, seventh sorry, seven March, the the

971
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 4: those who they have conscripted, uh more than five hundred

972
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 4: has been brought into into the commanding office of the

973
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 4: Hunter to be training in full uniform. Some of them

974
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 4: those inside there has got managed to get internet internet

975
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 4: access and then said to me the video footage, what

976
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 4: is happening on the inside there, So I posted that

977
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 4: on my Twitter and and then it's it's spread it

978
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 4: from there and then we called them like their denial

979
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 4: initially the lives that they have been putting by denying

980
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 4: that Roo we're not conscripted, all was wrong. And then

981
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 4: a few days later they have been sent to the

982
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 4: front line to fight against a And then there are

983
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 4: hundreds of those rough hingers who were who died in

984
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 4: this front line while and the Hunter. The Cake came

985
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,919
Speaker 4: back a few days later talking to their family saying

986
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 4: that Okaye, hundred plus people has died and we don't

987
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 4: know who is who and when we bring your dead body,

988
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 4: you will be able to be identified. And the first

989
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 4: dead body that they brought and handed over to the

990
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 4: clumby and the community leader with one million jets, which

991
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 4: is three hundred and fifty dollars plus one hundred kg

992
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 4: of rice as an incentive for the life that they

993
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 4: have given in the fighting. So that's the situations and

994
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 4: we can of course continue.

995
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's very bleak, isn't it? So this and we've

996
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 6: seen like just today actually people have been online today

997
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 6: there was a protest in Rapine State somewhere for a

998
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 6: hindred people rejecting the raconomy. Can can you explain like

999
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 6: that that might not be what it seems on the

1000
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 6: face of it, right? Can can you explain what might

1001
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 6: be happening there?

1002
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 4: The situations in ra kind of state has been very

1003
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 4: much complex because there are there are hidden factors being

1004
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 4: created ar officially created by the Hunter. For so long

1005
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 4: from the two thousand and twenty twelve twenty seventeen, between

1006
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 4: these different communities, there has been always interdependency and social

1007
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 4: equation to somewhat level. But HUNDA always used the divide

1008
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 4: and rule methodology to bring the conflict between these community

1009
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 4: and hate each other and then they can carry out

1010
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 4: what they need to do as a powerholder. And of

1011
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 4: course when the Arcan army is getting greater control over

1012
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 4: a kind of state and the hunter is losing the

1013
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 4: the Melochiy hunt and it used all tactics that they have,

1014
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 4: including the the the UH, the intercommunal tensions, and and

1015
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 4: so they there are Ruhinga, few Ringia maybe who has

1016
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 4: businesssess with this hunter, are being used as a proxy

1017
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 4: to push pressure or pressure on the Ruhinga and to organize.

1018
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 4: And so that's why the protest started a few years

1019
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 4: ago in one of the townships in the China state.

1020
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 4: We're eighty to ninety percent are Rringa and claiming that

1021
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 4: we don't want war and we don't want ee. And

1022
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 4: of course this can be happening artificially organically, and it's

1023
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 4: so artificial, and anyone who looks into this video footage,

1024
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 4: I can see that the Ruhingia never had in their life,

1025
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 4: like those who are protesting never know what is means.

1026
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 4: So a freedom of expression means And suddenly in one

1027
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 4: random morning, one hundred hundred of Rwinga, including minors, children

1028
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 4: coming on the street and protesting is not something normal.

1029
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 4: It can happen without the U And of course majority

1030
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 4: of the of the Rhingia are peace loving people and

1031
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 4: they want Burma to be an inclusive federal democracy and

1032
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 4: they want to be part of it and weird. That's

1033
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 4: why I myself as a Ruhinga taking a leading rule

1034
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 4: in the government as the first Rhina holding back ministrial

1035
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 4: positions in the cabinet since nineteen sixty two. And of

1036
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 4: course the Ruhingo equally want the to end the dictatorship

1037
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 4: once and for all because that very junta has been

1038
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 4: committing trustity scrims, including crimes against humanity and to genocides

1039
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 4: to Uringa. This is the very same military who devoted

1040
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 4: a million ringa killed more than twenty four thousands of

1041
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 4: people in burning children's life in twenty seventeen. So in

1042
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 4: which way that's the collectively will come and ascend with

1043
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 4: this hunt were the whole country. So this is not

1044
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 4: this is really not something organic, and this is artificial.

1045
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 4: This is too big and this is so like Hunter

1046
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 4: made to fit into be fitting into their political propaganda.

1047
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think one has to when I was

1048
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 6: looking at things in memr be aware that the Hunter

1049
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 6: just doesn't care about lying. It's something they've done for

1050
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 6: a long time. I apparently can't download iHeart podcasts in

1051
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 6: Memo now, like someone tried to download our podcast there

1052
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 6: and so they had to use a VPN. But yeah,

1053
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 6: they manipulate the media environment heavily, like you can read

1054
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 6: Hunter newspapers and some of its comically false. But one

1055
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 6: thing I did want to talk about is like when

1056
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 6: I talk to young PDF fighters, and I've spoken to

1057
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 6: dozens of them now, people who are Koreny, people who

1058
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 6: are Korenne, people who are a people who are kitchin

1059
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 6: they a lot of them say to me that, like

1060
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 6: what happened in twenty seventeen was atrocious and at the

1061
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 6: time they didn't realize because of this manipulated media environment,

1062
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 6: they didn't realize that the way the Rahinda were being

1063
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 6: treated was so appalling, and that now they're very upset

1064
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 6: about what happened. And like for them, I guess the

1065
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 6: litmus test for like a future for Burma is one

1066
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 6: that can include Rahinja people and so like with that

1067
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 6: in mind, I guess we've seen this kind of changing

1068
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 6: of language, right where previously they were referred to as

1069
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:43,080
Speaker 6: Bangladeshi and then now they're referred to as Muslim or

1070
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 6: Hinga people. I guess can you just explain, like what

1071
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 6: is the n UGPDF kind of like how how do

1072
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 6: we ensure independence and safety for a Hingo people in

1073
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 6: Myanmar in a federal, democratic future without a dictatorship.

1074
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 4: We're in a context of identity politics where the identity

1075
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 4: is so much associated with very rights, whether it's political, social,

1076
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 4: and economical right that you deserve and what you need

1077
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 4: to give back as an active of the citizens and

1078
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 4: obligations to the country that you belong. Therefore, the identity

1079
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 4: the Rhinga is a primary thing for Ruhinga to be

1080
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 4: enjoying equal freedom and to be able to contribute equally

1081
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,919
Speaker 4: as others in the nation building process. And of course

1082
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 4: before twenty seventeen, even before that, there has been a

1083
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 4: lot of misinformation. Disinformation is propagram that are widespread state

1084
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 4: sponsored against the Rhinga to that could be misleading and

1085
01:03:55,240 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 4: incitement of violence. And the Troum Bengali is a rum

1086
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 4: that's reefer that you're coming from Bangladesh illegally and you're

1087
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 4: illegally as you settling. That's how the terms came from. False.

1088
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 2: It's a false accusation.

1089
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 4: It's false accusations. And the the the Ruhingia people has

1090
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 4: existed in the kind of states side by side with

1091
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 4: your kind people, even Burma became Burma and they are

1092
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 4: historical facts that there are so many undeniable things that

1093
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 4: you could you could look into and into into various

1094
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 4: historical facts. And so the in between. Of course, the

1095
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 4: Rhingia the trum become illegal and the military denied it,

1096
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 4: rejected it, and then they started to use the tram

1097
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 4: Bengali and the most of the Burmese people fall into

1098
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 4: that trap. And even somewhere either silent in this horrific

1099
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 4: genocideal attack in twenty seventeen or somewhere taking side of

1100
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 4: a military at that time that that is okay to

1101
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 4: kill and it's okay to And of course these are

1102
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 4: being being propelled by all misinformations and disinformation that our

1103
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 4: earlier mentioned and twenty twenty one attempted could happened. And

1104
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 4: that's where a new perspective is being offered to the

1105
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 4: people of Me and Mar, because the same militory that

1106
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 4: has been carrying out atrocities clans against the Rhingia and

1107
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 4: other minorities came to Largerma people doing the same thing.

1108
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 4: So what has been told to us by the Ruhinga

1109
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 4: and the religious and ethnic minority in the end Mar

1110
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 4: for the decade came to be true, and that's how

1111
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:42,480
Speaker 4: the acceptance of the Ruhinga has started to grow. Of course,

1112
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 4: it's not to the level that we would be satisfied

1113
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 4: with yet, it's a process and there is so much

1114
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 4: to unlearn because one provoking factor like attempted to should

1115
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 4: like wouldn't fix a problem, a problem that has been

1116
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 4: there for for decades. And a National Unity government declared

1117
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 4: that we accept the chum Ruhinga, and there has been

1118
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 4: a policy stating very clearly in twenty twenty one June,

1119
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 4: and that policy to be implemented of course when the

1120
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 4: situation is conducive, and there are significant challenges with the

1121
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 4: territorial control and things like that when it's come. But again,

1122
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 4: the momentum that I mentioned we got as a result

1123
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 4: of extreme evolutions need to be maintained in the higher scale.

1124
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 4: That's not only the ruhinga and anything that's wrong, that's

1125
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 4: primarily that's principle and value are strong. I need to

1126
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 4: be able to see it wrong, regardless of whoever it

1127
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 4: is and regardless of race and religion. If we are

1128
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 4: talking about federal, inclusive democracy, we cannot preach to our

1129
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 4: people or international community saying that support us or asking

1130
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 4: for support or be a part of this movement where

1131
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 4: we see a sepri floud fishers and inclusive federal democracy.

1132
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 4: We're actual values that we are not practicing by ourselves.

1133
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 4: So before we preach, we need to we need to

1134
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:16,080
Speaker 4: act upon those principles by ourselves. And overall, I would say,

1135
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 4: the all the loss that we had, including life and livelihood,

1136
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 4: that hundred and hundred of people, thousands of people has

1137
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 4: been killed, jailed, and hundreds of villagers, township has been destroyed,

1138
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 4: the good thing that we got is the the these

1139
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 4: consciousness on the morality.

1140
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 5: Uh.

1141
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 4: And if we're able to accelerate that consciousness at the

1142
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 4: greatest scale, that's where we will be able to maintain

1143
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 4: the values and principle of the inclusive federal democracy. That

1144
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 4: would be the pillar to maintain this as a process.

1145
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think. So it's really fascinating to talk to

1146
01:07:56,520 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 6: young people talking to some manly PDF people not so

1147
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 6: long ago, and they were like, oh, yeah, well, when

1148
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 6: we left, we were told that like the Tang would

1149
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 6: hate us because we're Burmese and they would fight us.

1150
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 6: And then they're like, oh, they're really nice. Like this

1151
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 6: is a guy right next to me and they're like

1152
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 6: because they're joined up together. Now the PDFs and and

1153
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 6: the eros are largely fighting like side by side against

1154
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,639
Speaker 6: is there like the PDF forces present in rakind state

1155
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 6: as well.

1156
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:27,719
Speaker 4: No, there is Arkan Army particularly which is an allies

1157
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 4: with the with the we have been there have been

1158
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 4: multiple intract like you know, there are we have Alliance

1159
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 4: Relations Committee that we deal with all the alliance as

1160
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 4: National Unity Government and of course they have been playing

1161
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 4: in an important role in defeating the content. And there

1162
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 4: is no PDF in in the Kinda state.

1163
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,559
Speaker 6: Okay, Yeah, so it's a little different there. Other often

1164
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 6: the PDF and the eras are very similar in fight

1165
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 6: side by side.

1166
01:08:57,360 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 4: Also, our army is not tracked alone in a state.

1167
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 4: They're almost also in in Sharna State and they're yes,

1168
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 4: fighting with not only in the kind Of state. So

1169
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 4: like when we talk about like even though the physically

1170
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 4: PDFs are not there, it doesn't mean that there is

1171
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 4: no military connect to military connections between the ethnic organizations

1172
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:22,000
Speaker 4: that exists across the country.

1173
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, and like we've seen that a lot since October

1174
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,799
Speaker 6: and like since the Three brother Alliance started their campaign

1175
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 6: that moves hunter forces to one place and that allows

1176
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 6: other people like the KARENI to take advantage of the

1177
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 6: way those forces have moved and they've liberated huge parts

1178
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 6: of their territory. So it's all joined, I guess.

1179
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 4: Yeah. The tricky part that they have used in the

1180
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 4: past is like hidden cut, is that they will do

1181
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 4: sea fight in one part of the country and they

1182
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 4: will allocate all of their resources in another part of

1183
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 4: the country, and where they will defeat or they will

1184
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 4: at least like come to bargaining positions, let's not fight anymore,

1185
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 4: and and you stay where you are and don't don't

1186
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:10,759
Speaker 4: try to like you know, and and and it's hunta

1187
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 4: who violate again all all these agreements that usually so

1188
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 4: and and this time it's so coordinated across the country

1189
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 4: that the junta like cannot be able to position themselves

1190
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:27,719
Speaker 4: or estrategize themselves or put then themselves in the tactical

1191
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,799
Speaker 4: positions they're all tactic did not work in the modern

1192
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,879
Speaker 4: coordinations of the PDF and Ethnic Resistance Organization.

1193
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:36,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, No, They've tried multiple times to have that little

1194
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 6: individuals fires and it hasn't worked. So I wanted to

1195
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 6: ask just just to finish up people I think who

1196
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 6: listen to this will be very familiar with the situation

1197
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 6: in Meama, and they want to help, and they see

1198
01:10:57,520 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 6: that the international community is doing nothing, and I think

1199
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:03,880
Speaker 6: a lot of people are rightly very upset about that.

1200
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 6: So what what can people do to help and especially

1201
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 6: to advocate for a hanger people.

1202
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 4: Particularly when it's come to the Rhinia people Ringer people

1203
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 4: crisis is so much interconnected with Burmese democratization process. Ruhindia

1204
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 4: will not be able to have a life that dignified, say,

1205
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 4: and in their place of origin unless the Burma is

1206
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 4: solely in the hand of a civilian government. So the

1207
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 4: democratization process that whole verm is attempting to make need

1208
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 4: to be supported by international community. As I mentioned earlier,

1209
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 4: so far we got little to no international support. And

1210
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 4: on the on the Ruhinga crisis as well, there's one

1211
01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 4: million people in Bangladesh where their Russians are cuts to

1212
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 4: eight dollars per month per person and which is a

1213
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 4: cup of coffee in the United States, and there is

1214
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:04,560
Speaker 4: a greater danger of hunger restorations and malnitary nutrition and

1215
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 4: UH and so many other social economic problems that would

1216
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 4: have an impact on the regional security stability and things

1217
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 4: like that if the shortfall remains UH funding short call

1218
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 4: remains for for for for for for for the India.

1219
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:24,720
Speaker 4: That's on the Humanustrian and and of course Rhingia need

1220
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 4: to be politically organized in order to be to be

1221
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:34,439
Speaker 4: fitting into the changing political dynamic of Meanmar. Duringia has

1222
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:38,080
Speaker 4: been oppressed, they were not able to study organizations, they

1223
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 4: were not able to be elevating themselves. So all these

1224
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 4: societal leadership aspects need to be supported, including having a

1225
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 4: company like having an organized political platform for for Ringa

1226
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:54,400
Speaker 4: which will be able to represent Shuringa in the larger

1227
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:59,000
Speaker 4: political table UH, ensuring their voices are heart and there

1228
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:03,880
Speaker 4: able to equally take the rights that they deserve and

1229
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:08,360
Speaker 4: more importantly equal equally able to contribute to a decision

1230
01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 4: that will have an impact on their life. And the

1231
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:17,760
Speaker 4: United States has determined the crimes against Ruhinga as genocide

1232
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 4: two years before. And of course the genocide discrimination does

1233
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 4: not simply is an announcement. It's come with the moral

1234
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 4: and legal responsibility. So we do want to require the

1235
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 4: United States and it's people to formally extent on the

1236
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 4: moral and legal obligations that it has in ensuring that

1237
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:43,880
Speaker 4: the Rhinga are able to live equally peacefully and more importantly,

1238
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 4: the justice that they deserve on the physical and mental

1239
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:51,720
Speaker 4: damage that happened as part of the genocide. And it

1240
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 4: was picked in twenty seventeen, it's continued to be happening

1241
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 4: today and even today one hundred and fifty people were

1242
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:03,000
Speaker 4: arriving in Archie, Indonesia, where the Indonesian people who were

1243
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:06,600
Speaker 4: showing greater humanity in opening their arms and parts to

1244
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 4: be accepting Ruhinga, are denying the rhinga. So for the Ruhinga,

1245
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:13,320
Speaker 4: there is little to no space to be accommodated, both

1246
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 4: in regional and international and local setting, and it is

1247
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 4: very important that we are able to tackle and navigate

1248
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:27,040
Speaker 4: these issues together with the international community in an innovative, effective,

1249
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:32,720
Speaker 4: efficient and sustainable way for the sake of humanity. And

1250
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:36,599
Speaker 4: there are competing priorities across the world, but the international

1251
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:40,519
Speaker 4: community is we are so aware of that international community

1252
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 4: is capable of doing more than one thing at a time.

1253
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:44,559
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be either or.

1254
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:47,680
Speaker 6: No, it can be both and it should be right

1255
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 6: like obviously people are very concerned with the plight of

1256
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 6: Palestinian people, rightly so at the moment, but yes, we

1257
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:55,799
Speaker 6: should remember that as a Muslim people have been subject

1258
01:14:55,840 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 6: to genocide for the last needed for seven years, as

1259
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 6: I suppose, and it's ongoing, and they deserve our support

1260
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:07,360
Speaker 6: and solidarity as well. Yeah, I hope, yeah, yeah, I

1261
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:09,840
Speaker 6: mean it does seem like I guess a little more

1262
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:11,639
Speaker 6: hopeful than it was even a couple of years ago

1263
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:15,240
Speaker 6: that there will be a democratic mean and.

1264
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:22,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, the journey is is almost think and what we

1265
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:28,840
Speaker 4: need is greater international support. Like support doesn't mean just

1266
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 4: you know, releasing the statement, meaningful comprehensive support that we

1267
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 4: are able to defeat this Manta once and for all

1268
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 4: for the sake of people of Me and Mark fifty

1269
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:47,839
Speaker 4: plus million people giving the price at the highest possible

1270
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:51,560
Speaker 4: price in their life that include again the lives and livelihood.

1271
01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:55,800
Speaker 4: An international community was not doing more than condemnations for

1272
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,599
Speaker 4: releasing a statement of concern over the last three years.

1273
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 4: It's time to act and international community again has to

1274
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 4: answer this question to next generations when there's a questions

1275
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:13,120
Speaker 4: on the morality we're the internetional community. When the genocide

1276
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 4: comes against community and work careme has been happening to

1277
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 4: meally anything send people in the eyes of international community.

1278
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I hope they do. And it's incredible the

1279
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 6: progress that has been made without that support.

1280
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: And I think.

1281
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 6: It's just incredible to me that even I remember in

1282
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 6: twenty twenty one talking to people who were just beginning

1283
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:40,679
Speaker 6: their fight, and to see how far they've come is outstanding. Yeah,

1284
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:43,720
Speaker 6: and yeah, people should be very proud of that. But

1285
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:45,599
Speaker 6: it doesn't mean that they don't need more support.

1286
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 4: They do.

1287
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:48,400
Speaker 6: Doesn't mean that they don't need surface to our missiles.

1288
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:48,680
Speaker 2: They do.

1289
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:53,280
Speaker 6: Like, yeah, that it's the thing that we should be doing.

1290
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,719
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate

1291
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 6: your time and your insight into this. Is there anywhere

1292
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:00,800
Speaker 6: where people can find you online if they were to

1293
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:01,280
Speaker 6: follow on.

1294
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:06,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, they can follow me on my tutor and Facebook

1295
01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 4: and I it's my tutor is a K two okay,

1296
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 4: and my my Facebook is like my name. If you

1297
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:23,040
Speaker 4: type my moo it will appear. So yeah. Yeah, looking

1298
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 4: forward to seeing you in near future. Yeah, thanks, thank you,

1299
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:27,400
Speaker 4: thank you for having me.

1300
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 1: You're welcome, welcome.

1301
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 4: Let's take it out here.

1302
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 5: The podcast being recorded to a page of pain killers.

1303
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 5: I'm your host, via Wong, I'm fucking dying.

1304
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 6: Yeah it would be yeah, yeah, Phantalem episode even waiting

1305
01:17:57,400 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 6: for it here it is.

1306
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:00,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

1307
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 5: And the other thing that's dying was dying has died

1308
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 5: sort of was a bunch of French colonists in Algeria.

1309
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1310
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:14,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, the French Empire as a whole. One could say, yeah,

1311
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:17,439
Speaker 5: thank God, Jesus Christ, why did you let these people

1312
01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:18,960
Speaker 5: have an empire? Terrible idea?

1313
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:25,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, not an empire the abroad France, right, like like

1314
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:27,800
Speaker 6: the little parts of France which just happened to be

1315
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 6: in Africa, totally a normal thing, which particular part of

1316
01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:33,120
Speaker 6: the French Empire? Are we talking about it? Many many

1317
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,840
Speaker 6: such cases of French French Empire taking l's. Not that

1318
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:39,240
Speaker 6: that's unique, to be fair, also a British empire to

1319
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 6: the load of l's.

1320
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:40,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1321
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:46,200
Speaker 5: So today we're talking about Algeria, and I think one

1322
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:49,800
Speaker 5: of the things that I sort of realized about how

1323
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 5: the Algerian Revolution is remembered in the.

1324
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 2: West is okay.

1325
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 5: So there's there's the kind of the Frank Herbert react

1326
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 5: where they saw people who were Muslim in the streets

1327
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:08,200
Speaker 5: and were like, holy shit, it went insane for seventy years. Yeah, yeah,

1328
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:10,719
Speaker 5: to be fair, to be fair, that was also poorly

1329
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:13,640
Speaker 5: partly being driven mad by the Portland Dunes, which, like

1330
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 5: you know, like I get sometimes sometimes you're driven, you're

1331
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 5: driven completely insane by dunes. But you know, so there's

1332
01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:23,519
Speaker 5: that's that's there's a sort of reactionary memory of it.

1333
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 5: There's a sort of memory that functions in inside of

1334
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 5: like the American military where you know, Algeria's remember it

1335
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:34,600
Speaker 5: is one of those sort of like examples of failed.

1336
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 2: Kind of insurgency.

1337
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then there's there's the memory inside of the

1338
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 5: American left, which is largely confined to Fenn and the

1339
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:45,440
Speaker 5: movie The Battle of Algiers.

1340
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:48,600
Speaker 6: Yep, classic movie to be.

1341
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:54,040
Speaker 5: Fair, Yeah, great movie, like nothing nothing, a good good movie. However, Kama,

1342
01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 5: this is a real issue because the Battle of Algiers again,

1343
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 5: great movie ends in nineteen fifty seven. Finan great theorist

1344
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:09,800
Speaker 5: dies in nineteen sixty one. Now notably, Algeria gains independence

1345
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:10,880
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty two.

1346
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:12,639
Speaker 2: So okay.

1347
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 5: The issue with this is that people kind of broadly

1348
01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:20,040
Speaker 5: know the outlines of the First Algerian Revolution, but the

1349
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:23,200
Speaker 5: Second Algerian Revolution, the one where the Algerian working class

1350
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:25,160
Speaker 5: season is the control of the means of production, attempts

1351
01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:28,799
Speaker 5: to run them Autonomous League is just has completely faded

1352
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,360
Speaker 5: into the mists of history. I talk about it, no

1353
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:33,519
Speaker 5: one has any idea what the fuck I'm talking about.

1354
01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:37,559
Speaker 5: And this is kind of startling, because you know, up

1355
01:20:37,680 --> 01:20:42,000
Speaker 5: until there's probably like there's like a four year span

1356
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:46,560
Speaker 5: where the Algerian Revolution is the sort of like capital S,

1357
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:50,280
Speaker 5: capital R social revolution, like it's the big one, is

1358
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:52,640
Speaker 5: the one people all over the world taking inspiration from,

1359
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:55,280
Speaker 5: and then it kind of, you know, it flounders out

1360
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:56,960
Speaker 5: for reasons that we're going to talk about, and also

1361
01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:00,800
Speaker 5: the culture revolution starts and everyone lashes onto that. But

1362
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:06,519
Speaker 5: it's sort of fascinating to me that this the second

1363
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:09,439
Speaker 5: part of the revolution and the part that everyone was

1364
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:12,080
Speaker 5: really excited about, which is the core of the revolution

1365
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 5: being worker self management, and that being the sort of

1366
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:20,800
Speaker 5: great theoretical innovation of Algeria and socialism that has just

1367
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 5: completely faded for memory. It's just gone, and so today

1368
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 5: we're talking about that revolution. Unfortunately, one of the most

1369
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:34,280
Speaker 5: detailed studies on this I'm can be citing from a

1370
01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 5: lot is in Clegg's Worker Self Management in Algeria. Now,

1371
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:43,960
Speaker 5: this is a good book. However, Comma Clegg is uh,

1372
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:48,519
Speaker 5: He's a very specific kind of crimogeny Marxist guy.

1373
01:21:49,560 --> 01:21:51,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm familiar with that kind of guy.

1374
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:54,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so like the back third of this book

1375
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:57,759
Speaker 5: is him engaged in a protracted ideological war with phenomen

1376
01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 5: over the nature of revolutionary consciousness, which is largely pointless

1377
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:08,920
Speaker 5: and goes nowhere. So many sues, you know, but it

1378
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:11,479
Speaker 5: is a very very detailed and very useful account of

1379
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:15,720
Speaker 5: what actually happened after the First Revolution, like after the

1380
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:19,519
Speaker 5: French are forced to pull out of Algeria, and what

1381
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:23,080
Speaker 5: happens effectively is well, we need to go back a

1382
01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 5: little tiny bit, so there are you know, there is

1383
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:35,560
Speaker 5: a staggering slaughter of people who attempt to resist French colonialism.

1384
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:37,680
Speaker 5: Like a lot of the sort of techniques that are

1385
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:39,240
Speaker 5: going to be used in Vietnam, they are going to

1386
01:22:39,280 --> 01:22:41,240
Speaker 5: be used all over the world. And kind of insurgencies

1387
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:44,720
Speaker 5: are developed in Algeria in this period. I'm going to

1388
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 5: read a quote from Clagg about what they were doing.

1389
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 5: The use of air power in napalm to clear cover

1390
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 5: made movement inside the country almost impossible. The construction of

1391
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 5: mind and electrified barriers along the border with Tunisian and

1392
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 5: Morocco kept the better trained and armed elements of the

1393
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:03,599
Speaker 5: Liberation Nationale from coming to support the gorillas and moving

1394
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:06,599
Speaker 5: in supplies. One of the most successful moves encountering goerrilla

1395
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:10,479
Speaker 5: activity was the policy of regroupment, initiated by General Chalet.

1396
01:23:11,439 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 5: This strategy, learned from the British and Malaysia, involved moving

1397
01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:17,320
Speaker 5: the rural population out of areas favorable to the gorillas

1398
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 5: and resettling them in camps on their military guard, and

1399
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 5: estimated two million peasants were treated this way, creating vast

1400
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:26,680
Speaker 5: social and economic problems for the future. So, like they

1401
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:28,599
Speaker 5: put two million people in concentration camps.

1402
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, according it like Grey group more is a

1403
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 6: a fucking exercise in like and marketing. Like rarely have

1404
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:41,639
Speaker 6: I seen something so nefari named, like we're regrouping them

1405
01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:44,840
Speaker 6: parentheses in a fucking concentration camp.

1406
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:47,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, And this is this is a strategy that you know,

1407
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:50,320
Speaker 5: so the British sort of start doing this in Malaysia.

1408
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:53,920
Speaker 5: A lot of it's derived from attempts to counter you know.

1409
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:56,439
Speaker 5: And this isn't really an episode about that ter and revolution,

1410
01:23:56,520 --> 01:23:57,680
Speaker 5: but I want to talk about this a little bit.

1411
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:01,000
Speaker 5: It's it's it's design as a way to counter sort

1412
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:04,600
Speaker 5: of MAOIs insurgency campaigns, which is the sort of you know,

1413
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:09,120
Speaker 5: the becomes the new template for like the season that. Yeah,

1414
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:11,120
Speaker 5: and it's because it works really well, and you know,

1415
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 5: like the key thing of Maoist like well, I mean

1416
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:14,760
Speaker 5: there's a couple of things obviously, but like one of

1417
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:16,400
Speaker 5: the key elements of it is this is this line

1418
01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:18,160
Speaker 5: for Mao is it like the gorilla moves to the

1419
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:20,720
Speaker 5: people like a fish moves through the sea. Right, So

1420
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:23,400
Speaker 5: it's about like it's about building social basis such that

1421
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:25,760
Speaker 5: you know, gorillas can move in and out of communities

1422
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:28,000
Speaker 5: and not get turned in and stuff and use them

1423
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 5: as terrain.

1424
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 6: I've had that particular mao phrase paraphrase to me. I

1425
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 6: think sometimes by people who are where it comes from

1426
01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:39,200
Speaker 6: MoU sometimes people who probably have just sort of come

1427
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:43,519
Speaker 6: to it through their own understanding or or heard it

1428
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:45,920
Speaker 6: but not realize the source of it. By people who

1429
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:48,479
Speaker 6: are not certainly not Maoists. All over the world, like

1430
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 6: I've heard it in the Middle East, I've heard it

1431
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:53,840
Speaker 6: in Africa, I've heard it in Asia. It's it's it

1432
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:57,120
Speaker 6: is a very important thing and like it, Yeah, it

1433
01:24:57,400 --> 01:25:00,679
Speaker 6: does make Garrida war. If you can remember the population.

1434
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:03,920
Speaker 5: This is something that's propagated through because because of the

1435
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 5: success of Mao's like gorilla insurgency, this is something that's

1436
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 5: propagated through I mean through through obviously, like through through

1437
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:15,320
Speaker 5: communist parties, but I mean like a lot of Islamist

1438
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:17,120
Speaker 5: groups also pick it, like pick up a lot of

1439
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:18,639
Speaker 5: the elements of it, because a lot of those groups

1440
01:25:18,680 --> 01:25:22,719
Speaker 5: are trained in uh the Plos camps in the Becker

1441
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:26,839
Speaker 5: Valley in Jordan, and so like a lot of groups

1442
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 5: like all over the world of completely unrelated ideologies all

1443
01:25:30,320 --> 01:25:32,360
Speaker 5: sort of picked this stuff up. And the British response

1444
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:34,719
Speaker 5: to this is the British are fighting a communist insurgency

1445
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:37,000
Speaker 5: in Malaysia and they're like, Okay, we're gonna do concentration

1446
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:40,519
Speaker 5: camps for our purposes. So obviously this is a a

1447
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 5: you know, this is an unfathomable atrocity, but it has

1448
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:48,599
Speaker 5: enormous effects even after the war ends, because suddenly, you know, okay,

1449
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:52,080
Speaker 5: like the war ends, the French are gone, but you know,

1450
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:55,560
Speaker 5: two million people have been taken from their homes and

1451
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:59,200
Speaker 5: locked in and locked in camps, and this has enormous

1452
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:01,439
Speaker 5: you know, I mean, this is this is enormous economic

1453
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:04,840
Speaker 5: effects and the second thing that has really sort of

1454
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:09,599
Speaker 5: stunning economic effects are the Sore. There's been a class

1455
01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:12,599
Speaker 5: of people in Algeria called the Colognes who are basically

1456
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:15,840
Speaker 5: the colonists. They're not actually all French, a lot of

1457
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 5: them are from other European countries, but they come to

1458
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:25,320
Speaker 5: be this sort of hardcore French ultranationalist, sort of fascist

1459
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:30,200
Speaker 5: turbo racists. I guess they're they're they're not quite the Rhodesians,

1460
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:35,040
Speaker 5: but they're they're only not quite the Rhodesians because they

1461
01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:38,680
Speaker 5: didn't stay to fight it out. And when when the

1462
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:40,599
Speaker 5: French lose the war, and when the French pull out,

1463
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:44,280
Speaker 5: these people just flee, like all of them were talking,

1464
01:26:45,080 --> 01:26:48,479
Speaker 5: hundreds of thousands of people just are gone. I'm going

1465
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:50,960
Speaker 5: to read another quote from Cleig, because you know, if

1466
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 5: these people had merely left, I think a lot of

1467
01:26:54,920 --> 01:26:57,559
Speaker 5: what's going to happen in this revolution goes a lot better.

1468
01:26:57,840 --> 01:26:59,080
Speaker 5: But they didn't just leave.

1469
01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:01,320
Speaker 2: Quote.

1470
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:04,800
Speaker 5: In June, a policy of scorched earth was declared, inaugurating

1471
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:08,519
Speaker 5: an orgy of destruction. With his dream crumbling, the colonist's

1472
01:27:08,520 --> 01:27:12,080
Speaker 5: response was to destroy this world, which I think is

1473
01:27:12,120 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 5: a really sort of elegant.

1474
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:17,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's you very well written,

1475
01:27:17,360 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 6: and it's funny. It's this thing that again, like you

1476
01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:24,760
Speaker 6: see replicated so often. There was this slogan that they

1477
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:26,600
Speaker 6: used at the start the serience of a war like

1478
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 6: asado we bend in the country.

1479
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's this real you know.

1480
01:27:31,840 --> 01:27:33,559
Speaker 5: So, so what what the what the colons end up

1481
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:37,720
Speaker 5: doing is they end up just destroying, Yes, everything they

1482
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:40,160
Speaker 5: can get their hands on. They're destroying houses, They're especially

1483
01:27:40,280 --> 01:27:42,920
Speaker 5: destroying any kind of sort of factory of technical equipment,

1484
01:27:43,160 --> 01:27:45,320
Speaker 5: anything they can find. They're burning their lighting on fire

1485
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:48,479
Speaker 5: and someone and the other thing about Okay, so Luxuria

1486
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:51,720
Speaker 5: is a colonial economy, right, and the structure of the

1487
01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:55,600
Speaker 5: colonial economy is such that you know, if you.

1488
01:27:55,720 --> 01:27:56,120
Speaker 2: Are a.

1489
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 5: Anyone who has any kind of technical or manager gerial

1490
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:04,839
Speaker 5: experience are all colonists, right. Everyone else in the country

1491
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:08,920
Speaker 5: is either doing subsistence farming or has been fed as

1492
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:13,559
Speaker 5: like these this sort of like seasonal workers or really

1493
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:18,560
Speaker 5: really badly paid sort of contract workers on the on

1494
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 5: these sort of like cash crap agricultural farms, a lot

1495
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:21,760
Speaker 5: of orange production and.

1496
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:22,200
Speaker 4: Stuff like that.

1497
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:27,720
Speaker 5: And so when the colonists flee the country. Suddenly, like

1498
01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:31,920
Speaker 5: the entire technical managerial class, everyone with technical experience, and

1499
01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:35,320
Speaker 5: also all of the bosses and the entire bourgeoisie are

1500
01:28:35,439 --> 01:28:39,200
Speaker 5: just gone. And this takes everyone by surprise. The Ethelen

1501
01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:43,559
Speaker 5: had assumed the Ethelens the the kind of like umbrella

1502
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:48,519
Speaker 5: organization that carried out the revolution. They it kind of

1503
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:51,240
Speaker 5: falls apart very quickly because it's it's not really a

1504
01:28:52,040 --> 01:28:54,640
Speaker 5: coherent ideological group. It's just the sort of banner that

1505
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:58,320
Speaker 5: everyone who is fighting kind of attaches themselves to.

1506
01:28:59,280 --> 01:29:02,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, it is quite common, right, like national friends or

1507
01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:05,160
Speaker 6: like popular friends very often do this post fore.

1508
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:07,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they are disintegrate. But but they had all

1509
01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:09,720
Speaker 5: expected that the colonists were going to stick around, and

1510
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:11,360
Speaker 5: they don't because they're turbo racists.

1511
01:29:11,520 --> 01:29:11,640
Speaker 2: Right.

1512
01:29:12,439 --> 01:29:14,720
Speaker 5: And then the thought of having to live in an

1513
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:17,360
Speaker 5: Algeria world by Algeria, this was like, Nope, I will

1514
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:20,080
Speaker 5: fucking literally light the world on fire and flee to France.

1515
01:29:22,040 --> 01:29:23,679
Speaker 5: You know what else is going to light the world

1516
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:25,679
Speaker 5: on fire and cause people to flee to France.

1517
01:29:27,080 --> 01:29:29,519
Speaker 6: The products, products and services it's supporting to show.

1518
01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:32,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, so how how fucking good they are. It's gonna

1519
01:29:32,200 --> 01:29:33,960
Speaker 5: it's going to cause the world to burn and make

1520
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:34,880
Speaker 5: people flee to France.

1521
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:36,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, I have to think about that when they think

1522
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:39,280
Speaker 6: about like how big my pile of gold is, I

1523
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:42,120
Speaker 6: think that that match it's too small. I better just

1524
01:29:42,200 --> 01:29:43,519
Speaker 6: bend all down and move to France.

1525
01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:59,160
Speaker 5: And we are back now enter enter here. The heroes

1526
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 5: of this episode ode the workers Council, or very specifically,

1527
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:05,120
Speaker 5: so this is this is a French this is a

1528
01:30:05,160 --> 01:30:10,040
Speaker 5: French colony. So in France and in Spain and in

1529
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:13,560
Speaker 5: sort of I guess, the Romance languages. There, there was

1530
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 5: a concept called auto gision. I'm pronouncing it really badly

1531
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:19,200
Speaker 5: because I'm reading the French version of it and trying

1532
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:20,880
Speaker 5: to pronounce it half in Spanish, the only one of

1533
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:23,560
Speaker 5: these languages I can even sort of speak. But it

1534
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:27,840
Speaker 5: so it means self management, and it basically it has

1535
01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:31,280
Speaker 5: this context of of sort of like workers democratic self management.

1536
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:35,080
Speaker 5: Right if you're if you're doing osteone, you're like the

1537
01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 5: workers of a factory have taken over the factory and

1538
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:40,599
Speaker 5: are running it themselves. The most prominent example and at

1539
01:30:40,680 --> 01:30:46,479
Speaker 5: this point of self management is Yugoslavia. Now this it's

1540
01:30:46,560 --> 01:30:50,320
Speaker 5: very Theoslavian version is very, very weird, but as a

1541
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:53,400
Speaker 5: way basically to tell the Soviets to fuck off. Yugoslavia

1542
01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:57,320
Speaker 5: adopts a very different kind of model of socialism than

1543
01:30:57,360 --> 01:31:00,719
Speaker 5: everyone else's. So there are models based on the quote

1544
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:04,519
Speaker 5: unquote the withering away of the state. So they're you know,

1545
01:31:04,640 --> 01:31:09,920
Speaker 5: you have basically these like reasonably democratic, like workers co

1546
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 5: ops that are the sort of that are sort of

1547
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:17,559
Speaker 5: their productive basis of society. And these these co ops

1548
01:31:17,560 --> 01:31:19,120
Speaker 5: sort of compete against each other on the market. But

1549
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:21,719
Speaker 5: other hand, there is a like a very large level

1550
01:31:21,760 --> 01:31:25,760
Speaker 5: of workers control that's different from you know, like the US,

1551
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:30,760
Speaker 5: which is just a pure dictatorship of your boss in

1552
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:32,640
Speaker 5: the workplace, tells you what to do, and if you

1553
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:36,400
Speaker 5: don't do what you get fired. Yeah, and so Algeria

1554
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:42,280
Speaker 5: gets there has their own version of self management. But

1555
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:46,000
Speaker 5: unlike Algeria which was sort of effectively imposed by the

1556
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:50,000
Speaker 5: top down for the Comnist party. In Algeria, what happens

1557
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:54,439
Speaker 5: is you have this this enormous mass of workers who

1558
01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:58,120
Speaker 5: used to work on these plantations, used to work in factories.

1559
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:03,240
Speaker 5: There's these huge colony lagger cultural estates. And what happens

1560
01:32:03,600 --> 01:32:07,040
Speaker 5: is with with the entire ruling class gone and when

1561
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:09,880
Speaker 5: I say the entire ruling class, we're talking from all

1562
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:13,120
Speaker 5: the way up from you know, the highest level government officials,

1563
01:32:13,280 --> 01:32:16,680
Speaker 5: through all all of your sort of capitalist bosses, right

1564
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 5: down to sort of the middle management guys are gone.

1565
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,439
Speaker 5: All those people just have disappeared. So what happens is

1566
01:32:23,760 --> 01:32:27,920
Speaker 5: workers start taking over all of their all of their workplaces,

1567
01:32:28,080 --> 01:32:33,560
Speaker 5: and they start forming workers councils. Right now, this is

1568
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:36,679
Speaker 5: this is driven largely by I mean there's there's there's

1569
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:39,160
Speaker 5: there's a few different drivers. There's we'll get to the

1570
01:32:39,200 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 5: ideological aspect. A lot of it is that these people

1571
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:45,280
Speaker 5: have no money and no one else is going to

1572
01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:49,120
Speaker 5: run it. So they're they're the workers who have now

1573
01:32:49,160 --> 01:32:50,960
Speaker 5: sees all the stuff are like, Okay, well we're gonna

1574
01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 5: we're gonna get the money we need to survive by

1575
01:32:54,479 --> 01:32:56,240
Speaker 5: running by running all the stuff ourselves.

1576
01:32:56,720 --> 01:32:56,880
Speaker 1: Yea.

1577
01:32:57,400 --> 01:33:00,800
Speaker 5: And so this sort of starts ineteen sixty two, and

1578
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:03,439
Speaker 5: it it sweeps across the country very quickly. I mean

1579
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:05,240
Speaker 5: there's a lot of real regions where it never really

1580
01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:10,759
Speaker 5: takes hold. But largely what's happening is that permanent workers

1581
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:13,719
Speaker 5: who had been who had been workers at these firms

1582
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:18,320
Speaker 5: seize control of them. This has benefits and downsize. The

1583
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:21,080
Speaker 5: benefit of it is so there's an attempt by the

1584
01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:24,040
Speaker 5: sort of the new Algerian sort of bushwise either the

1585
01:33:24,360 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 5: sort of like small faction of Algerian capitalists to buy

1586
01:33:29,040 --> 01:33:31,080
Speaker 5: up all this land. And there's a much of really

1587
01:33:31,120 --> 01:33:33,519
Speaker 5: funny stories of these guys buying these estates and showing

1588
01:33:33,560 --> 01:33:36,439
Speaker 5: up and the workers conn they just kicking them out. Yeah, yes,

1589
01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:42,840
Speaker 5: this is extremely funny. Yeah, there's also issues. So part

1590
01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:44,800
Speaker 5: of what's going on is this is this is the

1591
01:33:44,920 --> 01:33:46,800
Speaker 5: sort of this is the permanent workers taking over the

1592
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:49,920
Speaker 5: stuff with their people, right, and so a lot of

1593
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:55,080
Speaker 5: times like they'll they'll kick out seasonal workers because yeah,

1594
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:57,479
Speaker 5: so it's not it's not perfect, and there's a lot

1595
01:33:57,520 --> 01:33:59,240
Speaker 5: of issues with it, right because this is this is

1596
01:33:59,280 --> 01:34:02,200
Speaker 5: all being formed effectively, spontaneously about a bunch of extremely

1597
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:02,840
Speaker 5: desperate people.

1598
01:34:03,240 --> 01:34:06,320
Speaker 6: That's what I'm just so obviously like because it's me.

1599
01:34:06,680 --> 01:34:09,160
Speaker 6: The point of comparison I'm thinking of is the Spanish

1600
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:12,120
Speaker 6: Civil War, right, Yeah, and worker is self management. But

1601
01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:15,120
Speaker 6: there you have a workforce which is which has been

1602
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:19,280
Speaker 6: working towards collectivization for more than a decade in some cases.

1603
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:22,320
Speaker 6: And also like this is the point actually gets missed

1604
01:34:22,320 --> 01:34:24,400
Speaker 6: a lot in online discourse about the Spanish Civil War,

1605
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:26,439
Speaker 6: perhaps because people don't know as much as they think

1606
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 6: they do. That like, there were anarchists in all kinds

1607
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:34,559
Speaker 6: of roles, Like when people talk about their rooty column

1608
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:37,640
Speaker 6: or whatever like, there were absolutely anarchists, noncommissioned officers from

1609
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 6: the military who they relied on heavily for advice. And

1610
01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:44,280
Speaker 6: the same is true with the collectivized workplaces, right that

1611
01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:47,320
Speaker 6: there were anarchists in many roles, you know, in shop

1612
01:34:47,439 --> 01:34:50,920
Speaker 6: stewards and things like that, obviously not in like the

1613
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:53,559
Speaker 6: higher management roles. I think, yeah, doing that is kind

1614
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:56,800
Speaker 6: of incompatible with anarchism, but obviously what we're dealing here

1615
01:34:56,960 --> 01:35:01,760
Speaker 6: with is anarchosyndicalism. For the most part, the fire was

1616
01:35:01,840 --> 01:35:05,519
Speaker 6: more of a purest anarchist group, but there you had

1617
01:35:05,560 --> 01:35:07,479
Speaker 6: people who've been working towards this for a long time,

1618
01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:10,280
Speaker 6: who have been planning for it, and who did have

1619
01:35:10,439 --> 01:35:13,839
Speaker 6: people with a variety of experiences in I think oversight

1620
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:16,320
Speaker 6: might be a better word than the management preps or

1621
01:35:16,439 --> 01:35:22,240
Speaker 6: like sort of organization. But they were very successful. But

1622
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:26,000
Speaker 6: that didn't just happen overnight. It often gets presented as

1623
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:28,080
Speaker 6: if it did as if on like the eighteenth of July,

1624
01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:31,000
Speaker 6: these people were just sort of going to work and

1625
01:35:31,080 --> 01:35:33,439
Speaker 6: by the twentieth they were fully formed the anarchists running

1626
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:35,960
Speaker 6: their own workplaces. But that's absolutely not the case.

1627
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:38,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and jud jury is the exact opposite of this,

1628
01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:41,120
Speaker 5: which is, yeah, there's there's a very low level of

1629
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:47,880
Speaker 5: political consciousness. There's organization is almost non existent, because so

1630
01:35:48,040 --> 01:35:50,360
Speaker 5: I mean the kinds of organizations that it existed are

1631
01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:52,600
Speaker 5: you know, you have these sort of vanguard cells, but

1632
01:35:52,720 --> 01:35:57,120
Speaker 5: those are largely rural. And then you have there are

1633
01:35:57,240 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 5: some unions, but they're not very they're not very large

1634
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:05,520
Speaker 5: because they've been outlawed. Yeah, break ground, Yeah, like unbelievablexpression.

1635
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 5: Colonial context is extremely important.

1636
01:36:08,160 --> 01:36:08,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1637
01:36:10,280 --> 01:36:13,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, obviously Nia may Or I is blaming Algerian workers

1638
01:36:13,320 --> 01:36:14,559
Speaker 6: for not being Catalana.

1639
01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:16,120
Speaker 5: No, yeah, like this is this is this is the

1640
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:20,000
Speaker 5: Frenchest fault and and you know, but but any such cases. Yeah,

1641
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:23,880
Speaker 5: but this seizure really takes everyone by surprise because all

1642
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:27,200
Speaker 5: all of the sort of leaders of fl and all

1643
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:29,680
Speaker 5: leaders of the various factions had assumed that either they

1644
01:36:29,720 --> 01:36:34,320
Speaker 5: were going to sort of do I don't know, there's

1645
01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:39,240
Speaker 5: ideological conflict. But they they they all assume that they're

1646
01:36:39,280 --> 01:36:41,280
Speaker 5: going to do some kind of like giant state led

1647
01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 5: industrialization project, right, whether it's a socialist one, whether it's

1648
01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:48,840
Speaker 5: the more Islamist one, and then suddenly they're they're now all,

1649
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 5: you know, it's like, okay, well your economy is now

1650
01:36:51,960 --> 01:36:55,840
Speaker 5: on the Yugoslavian uh self management model because.

1651
01:36:56,080 --> 01:36:58,840
Speaker 2: All of these workers have just seized all their workplaces.

1652
01:36:59,080 --> 01:37:01,680
Speaker 5: Now that there are there there are a few organizations

1653
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:05,440
Speaker 5: that are are politically very supportive of this. The UGTA,

1654
01:37:05,640 --> 01:37:09,280
Speaker 5: which is Algeria's big sort of trade union, are very

1655
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:14,160
Speaker 5: politically socialist and they they are really the only people

1656
01:37:14,240 --> 01:37:17,120
Speaker 5: in this entire country who are who are an organized

1657
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:19,439
Speaker 5: political body who actually want to see this thing work,

1658
01:37:20,240 --> 01:37:22,320
Speaker 5: and so they do a lot of work helping me,

1659
01:37:22,400 --> 01:37:26,080
Speaker 5: helping workers set up their their committees and spreading the revolution.

1660
01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:30,240
Speaker 5: Their plan is to use this against any attempt to

1661
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:34,880
Speaker 5: set up basically a dictatorship by uh, you know, it's okay.

1662
01:37:34,880 --> 01:37:36,759
Speaker 5: And this is where it gets sort of interesting because

1663
01:37:37,560 --> 01:37:40,200
Speaker 5: very explicitly they are trying to stave off sort of

1664
01:37:40,280 --> 01:37:44,120
Speaker 5: Soviet style socialisticatorship, right they are, And their plan is

1665
01:37:44,160 --> 01:37:45,639
Speaker 5: We're going to use we're going to use the workers

1666
01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:48,759
Speaker 5: councils as the as the basis of of an actual

1667
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:52,560
Speaker 5: sort of workers democracy against again against the sort of

1668
01:37:52,680 --> 01:37:56,240
Speaker 5: orthodox like Marcus Leninist stuff. And this is another thing

1669
01:37:56,280 --> 01:37:58,160
Speaker 5: that's going on too, is the army is a lot

1670
01:37:58,240 --> 01:38:01,639
Speaker 5: more orthodox Marcist Leninists than and then either the workers

1671
01:38:01,720 --> 01:38:03,560
Speaker 5: committees with the unions and so a lot in a

1672
01:38:03,600 --> 01:38:05,120
Speaker 5: lot of parts of the countries in the West, the

1673
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:07,360
Speaker 5: army just sort of rolls through, knocks off the workers

1674
01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:11,280
Speaker 5: committees and seizes the land for itself. And that's a fiasco.

1675
01:38:12,200 --> 01:38:15,559
Speaker 5: But now now pretty very quickly Ben Bella, who emerges

1676
01:38:15,760 --> 01:38:17,839
Speaker 5: as as the sort of as the leader of Algeria

1677
01:38:18,000 --> 01:38:22,280
Speaker 5: after a set of political maneuvering that we're not going

1678
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:25,640
Speaker 5: to get into here, is basically forced to and in

1679
01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:29,400
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty three set a bunch of decrees saying that, yeah,

1680
01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:31,880
Speaker 5: these guys are people who run the economy, et cetera,

1681
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:37,280
Speaker 5: et cetera. But there's there I want to talk. I

1682
01:38:37,360 --> 01:38:40,760
Speaker 5: want to actually get into something that is really not

1683
01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:44,439
Speaker 5: talked about in ninety nine percent of the accounts of

1684
01:38:44,439 --> 01:38:46,479
Speaker 5: this stuff, which is how do these councils actually work?

1685
01:38:47,200 --> 01:38:49,800
Speaker 5: Because spoiler alert. This whole thing is going to fail

1686
01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:51,519
Speaker 5: and all these people are going to be crushed. And

1687
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:54,680
Speaker 5: a lot of that has to do with how this

1688
01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:58,400
Speaker 5: thing's set up, which is very badly because it is

1689
01:38:58,479 --> 01:39:02,360
Speaker 5: a system designed by Marxists, and they're very sympathetic Marksist

1690
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:03,280
Speaker 5: to a broad extent.

1691
01:39:03,560 --> 01:39:07,320
Speaker 2: But unfortunately the way that these that this is set.

1692
01:39:07,240 --> 01:39:10,479
Speaker 5: Up is that, Okay, so there's an assembly, right, that's like,

1693
01:39:10,760 --> 01:39:12,679
Speaker 5: all the workers in the firm are in this assembly.

1694
01:39:13,400 --> 01:39:17,400
Speaker 5: The assembly elects this worker's council, which has like ten people,

1695
01:39:18,439 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 5: and then that council elects the management Committee, which is

1696
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:25,040
Speaker 5: the people who actually do the management. So it has

1697
01:39:25,080 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 5: a president and there's also a director supposed to represent

1698
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:30,360
Speaker 5: the interest of the state or whatever. And and the

1699
01:39:30,479 --> 01:39:33,000
Speaker 5: issue with this is that it's designed specifically to keep

1700
01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 5: power out of the hands of workers directly. Right that

1701
01:39:35,680 --> 01:39:39,560
Speaker 5: that that giant assembly, it can't actually make policy. The

1702
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:43,080
Speaker 5: only thing they can do is approve plans or disapproved

1703
01:39:43,120 --> 01:39:45,879
Speaker 5: plans set down by the management committee.

1704
01:39:46,240 --> 01:39:48,759
Speaker 6: Got it, okay? And these people at the management committee

1705
01:39:48,760 --> 01:39:51,960
Speaker 6: will presumably like representatives as opposed to delegates.

1706
01:39:51,560 --> 01:39:54,000
Speaker 5: Right, yeah, yeah, they're the representatives. They also have three

1707
01:39:54,080 --> 01:39:58,519
Speaker 5: year terms, and it won. I think they can, but

1708
01:39:58,600 --> 01:40:01,400
Speaker 5: it's really hard, okay. And the other thing that that

1709
01:40:01,439 --> 01:40:04,360
Speaker 5: that sort of destroys this is that they those they

1710
01:40:04,520 --> 01:40:07,120
Speaker 5: there's a lot of sort of like election rigging by

1711
01:40:07,160 --> 01:40:09,200
Speaker 5: the state who doesn't want these things to be actual

1712
01:40:09,280 --> 01:40:13,160
Speaker 5: sort of democratic and the and this leads into the

1713
01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:15,320
Speaker 5: bigger issue, which is state control. And this is this

1714
01:40:15,479 --> 01:40:17,719
Speaker 5: is where I think, really this is something that Clegg

1715
01:40:17,800 --> 01:40:19,920
Speaker 5: doesn't get into much because Clegg is a Marxist.

1716
01:40:20,479 --> 01:40:22,000
Speaker 2: But this is where the.

1717
01:40:22,080 --> 01:40:26,200
Speaker 5: Marxism of it all really comes into play. But first,

1718
01:40:26,240 --> 01:40:27,599
Speaker 5: do you know who's not a Marxist?

1719
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:29,839
Speaker 6: Oh, yes, almost certainly.

1720
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:34,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, not Marxists. I think we I think we can

1721
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:35,600
Speaker 5: say not Marxists.

1722
01:40:46,720 --> 01:40:47,519
Speaker 1: All right, we are back.

1723
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:49,960
Speaker 5: So the biggest issue here, and this is something that

1724
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:52,920
Speaker 5: was kind of true in both Algeria and in the

1725
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:57,439
Speaker 5: others kind of big Marxist self management experiments in Chile,

1726
01:40:57,800 --> 01:41:04,320
Speaker 5: which is that these self managing firms don't have control

1727
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,080
Speaker 5: over a lot of the things that they need. Right

1728
01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:10,320
Speaker 5: So in Algeria, when when when the state essentially tries

1729
01:41:10,360 --> 01:41:12,120
Speaker 5: to absorb all of this stuff, when it when it

1730
01:41:12,160 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 5: gets sort of legitimized under under these decrees, there are

1731
01:41:16,120 --> 01:41:19,160
Speaker 5: a lot of issues. One is that these self managing

1732
01:41:20,080 --> 01:41:25,519
Speaker 5: organizations don't have control over their own money. So y're, yeah,

1733
01:41:25,560 --> 01:41:28,560
Speaker 5: you're paid. You're getting paid by the state, right and

1734
01:41:28,640 --> 01:41:30,599
Speaker 5: you so you give the state your money and then

1735
01:41:30,680 --> 01:41:33,759
Speaker 5: they they pay you. And this becomes a real issue

1736
01:41:33,800 --> 01:41:35,800
Speaker 5: because the state goes, oh well, the people in these

1737
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:39,120
Speaker 5: self managing things are actually like privileged workers, so they

1738
01:41:39,200 --> 01:41:44,000
Speaker 5: have permanent pay freezes. And also you can't reinvest your

1739
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:46,759
Speaker 5: profits back into the firm, which is a real issue.

1740
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:50,360
Speaker 6: It's like a horrible combination of like and cap and

1741
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:55,559
Speaker 6: and like stylin its like it without. Yeah, I don't

1742
01:41:55,600 --> 01:41:57,600
Speaker 6: I don't want to like derail us too much. But

1743
01:41:57,920 --> 01:41:59,519
Speaker 6: this again, like it's it's a stake.

1744
01:42:00,240 --> 01:42:02,280
Speaker 5: It's so much worse than the Spanish system. It's so

1745
01:42:02,400 --> 01:42:04,400
Speaker 5: much worse, Like every part of it is set up

1746
01:42:04,439 --> 01:42:04,800
Speaker 5: to fail.

1747
01:42:05,439 --> 01:42:07,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think this should always get This is

1748
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:10,479
Speaker 6: the sort of discourse I am now going to derailiz.

1749
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:13,720
Speaker 6: I'm sorry. This is the kind of like the online

1750
01:42:13,880 --> 01:42:17,040
Speaker 6: like hammer and sickle in bio discourse that we see

1751
01:42:17,439 --> 01:42:19,719
Speaker 6: so often, right, and you don't have to pay attention

1752
01:42:19,800 --> 01:42:23,720
Speaker 6: to these people, and like you probably shouldn't, but just

1753
01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:25,439
Speaker 6: just to like put it out there. I think like

1754
01:42:26,080 --> 01:42:29,560
Speaker 6: and archo syndicalism is right there, and it allows for

1755
01:42:30,080 --> 01:42:34,559
Speaker 6: the like unions and syndicate which over overlook a whole

1756
01:42:34,640 --> 01:42:39,400
Speaker 6: industry to coordinate between workers' committees and ensure that, you know,

1757
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:41,840
Speaker 6: things get done and people get read with dignity, and

1758
01:42:42,640 --> 01:42:45,360
Speaker 6: they also make enough money or have access to the

1759
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:49,120
Speaker 6: resources that they need to survive. And when we try

1760
01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:52,040
Speaker 6: and like cut the corners off this or kind of

1761
01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:55,600
Speaker 6: make a little collage between this and barkist leninism or

1762
01:42:55,600 --> 01:43:00,519
Speaker 6: state socialism, like neither thing works, and we to stand

1763
01:43:00,640 --> 01:43:03,040
Speaker 6: up with this kind of terrible hodge podge in which

1764
01:43:04,040 --> 01:43:06,400
Speaker 6: it doesn't it doesn't function, right, But that that doesn't

1765
01:43:06,400 --> 01:43:09,240
Speaker 6: necessarily mean that work is self management itself is invaded

1766
01:43:09,280 --> 01:43:10,320
Speaker 6: as a concept it.

1767
01:43:11,120 --> 01:43:14,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, and and and there's there's a lot of things

1768
01:43:14,439 --> 01:43:15,560
Speaker 5: here that you know.

1769
01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:16,000
Speaker 4: So the.

1770
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:19,840
Speaker 5: One of the big criticisms of this at the time

1771
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:22,400
Speaker 5: by by social intellectuals is people are going, well, there's

1772
01:43:22,439 --> 01:43:26,040
Speaker 5: not coordination, uh, you know, the firms competing against each other,

1773
01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:28,680
Speaker 5: there's not broad economic coordination. It's like, well, yeah, that's

1774
01:43:28,720 --> 01:43:31,920
Speaker 5: because that's because the state controls other finances. They don't

1775
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:34,120
Speaker 5: they don't have the ability to do coordination.

1776
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:34,240
Speaker 4: With each other.

1777
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:36,559
Speaker 5: And yeah, the big thing, and this is the thing

1778
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:41,880
Speaker 5: that really actually kills this is that so Cleik calls

1779
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,000
Speaker 5: it marketing is controlled by the state. But that's not

1780
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:46,200
Speaker 5: quite what's going on. The other thing that's controlled by

1781
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:49,280
Speaker 5: the state is the state has the responsibility or and

1782
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:51,040
Speaker 5: and is the people who are in charge of selling

1783
01:43:51,120 --> 01:43:55,000
Speaker 5: the products. And they just fucked us up completely. They

1784
01:43:55,479 --> 01:43:57,880
Speaker 5: can't they can't figure out how to get like the

1785
01:43:57,920 --> 01:44:00,920
Speaker 5: fruit that's being produced sold right. The problem here isn't

1786
01:44:00,960 --> 01:44:02,840
Speaker 5: is an output. Is that the city, the state is

1787
01:44:02,920 --> 01:44:05,240
Speaker 5: doing things like I mean sometimes sometimes they they'll have

1788
01:44:05,240 --> 01:44:07,839
Speaker 5: all these oranges. So a lot of the the Algeria

1789
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:10,360
Speaker 5: and agricultural economy is set up as a cash crop economy.

1790
01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:12,320
Speaker 5: And you're supposed to fight you so okay, and it's

1791
01:44:12,439 --> 01:44:16,200
Speaker 5: it's never really worked very well. But the Algerian state

1792
01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:18,840
Speaker 5: just completely shits the bed. And there's I mean, this

1793
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:20,840
Speaker 5: is like i mean we're talking like tons of fruit

1794
01:44:20,960 --> 01:44:23,280
Speaker 5: is just sitting there rotting a lot of the time.

1795
01:44:23,360 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 5: What they do is they just dump in onto the

1796
01:44:25,080 --> 01:44:28,320
Speaker 5: French market at for like basically zero cost, and so

1797
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:30,479
Speaker 5: and you know, and so you you you get these

1798
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:33,120
Speaker 5: things and you look at the sort of profit lost thing,

1799
01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:37,599
Speaker 5: and you know, the sort of like right wing parts

1800
01:44:37,640 --> 01:44:39,560
Speaker 5: of the state, and this is oh, I guess you like,

1801
01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:41,720
Speaker 5: I guess they are right wing, but the sort of

1802
01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:43,600
Speaker 5: anti self management parts of the statia going oh, well,

1803
01:44:43,640 --> 01:44:45,639
Speaker 5: look at these these firms. They're hemorrhaging all this money.

1804
01:44:45,680 --> 01:44:47,960
Speaker 5: It's like, well, yeah, they're hemorrhaging money because instead of

1805
01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:50,000
Speaker 5: actually selling the goods, you guys are throwing all of

1806
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:52,920
Speaker 5: their goods into a dumpster. Like yeah, of course it's

1807
01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:53,760
Speaker 5: not working, right.

1808
01:44:54,320 --> 01:44:57,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, And it's just a struggle of like perst colonial economies.

1809
01:44:58,360 --> 01:45:02,679
Speaker 6: If you in the French colonial system, like they've decided

1810
01:45:02,720 --> 01:45:04,160
Speaker 6: that Algeria is going to be the place that makes

1811
01:45:04,240 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 6: oranges for the entirety of the French, I'm just sort

1812
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:11,040
Speaker 6: of manufacturing example empire here. Then evidently what once you

1813
01:45:11,479 --> 01:45:14,640
Speaker 6: once you secede from that empire, you now have a

1814
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:17,400
Speaker 6: fuck ton more oranges than you need for Algerias. You're

1815
01:45:17,479 --> 01:45:19,920
Speaker 6: now going to have to navigate and you might not

1816
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:20,519
Speaker 6: have enough.

1817
01:45:20,360 --> 01:45:21,880
Speaker 5: Well, and they can't even figure how to sell to

1818
01:45:21,920 --> 01:45:24,240
Speaker 5: other Algerians too. That that that's that's the that's the

1819
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:25,960
Speaker 5: problem with the sort of state control of the market.

1820
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:26,519
Speaker 2: Is they can't.

1821
01:45:26,680 --> 01:45:29,360
Speaker 5: They can't do either because they're completely because the bureaucrats

1822
01:45:29,360 --> 01:45:32,880
Speaker 5: that are running this are completely incompetent, right.

1823
01:45:32,920 --> 01:45:36,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, man, I mean one can argue the states incapable

1824
01:45:36,120 --> 01:45:38,880
Speaker 6: of adimating resources equally or fairly. But yes, even so,

1825
01:45:39,040 --> 01:45:41,320
Speaker 6: they've they've done a bad job even by state standards.

1826
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:43,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, and and and the and the and the subsequent

1827
01:45:44,040 --> 01:45:46,479
Speaker 5: issue too is it's because all the finances are controlled

1828
01:45:46,479 --> 01:45:48,120
Speaker 5: by the state. Even the firms that are profitable, and

1829
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:51,600
Speaker 5: there are firms that are very profitable, they can't reinvest

1830
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:55,000
Speaker 5: their profit back into you know, improving efficiency or do

1831
01:45:55,240 --> 01:45:57,080
Speaker 5: or doing the basic things that workers need, which is

1832
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:00,760
Speaker 5: having money to eat, because that money is that all

1833
01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:02,960
Speaker 5: of that sort of capital is just being eaten by

1834
01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:05,720
Speaker 5: the state. And so you know, there's not even to

1835
01:46:05,800 --> 01:46:09,599
Speaker 5: quote Claig again, as the president of a self managed

1836
01:46:09,640 --> 01:46:12,200
Speaker 5: farm said to me in nineteen sixty five, in this situation,

1837
01:46:12,320 --> 01:46:14,000
Speaker 5: how can we persuade the worker that he is no

1838
01:46:14,160 --> 01:46:16,599
Speaker 5: longer working for a capitalist exploiter? And like, well, yeah,

1839
01:46:16,640 --> 01:46:20,920
Speaker 5: he objectively is right, he is, like the state is

1840
01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:23,880
Speaker 5: stealing all of his money and then doing some stupid

1841
01:46:23,920 --> 01:46:24,600
Speaker 5: bullshit with it.

1842
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:25,519
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1843
01:46:25,640 --> 01:46:28,439
Speaker 6: I love that they're like they're not quite joining the

1844
01:46:28,560 --> 01:46:32,320
Speaker 6: dots there, Like these guys don't seem to be getting it,

1845
01:46:32,720 --> 01:46:34,479
Speaker 6: Like maybe maybe they do get it.

1846
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:36,920
Speaker 5: And this is this is one of these things where

1847
01:46:37,960 --> 01:46:41,599
Speaker 5: you know, like I I go, Cleig Cleik doesn't really

1848
01:46:41,720 --> 01:46:43,680
Speaker 5: draw this line because he just I mean, Cleig just

1849
01:46:43,800 --> 01:46:49,360
Speaker 5: refuses to talk about either Hungary or the Spanish Revolution

1850
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:49,920
Speaker 5: at all.

1851
01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:54,240
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, and you really don't like to.

1852
01:46:54,280 --> 01:46:55,880
Speaker 5: Well he's not a mouth like that's the thing. He

1853
01:46:56,800 --> 01:46:59,439
Speaker 5: is a he is a pro worker self management guy, right,

1854
01:47:00,320 --> 01:47:03,120
Speaker 5: but he's a Marxist pro worker self management guy.

1855
01:47:03,400 --> 01:47:03,599
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1856
01:47:03,680 --> 01:47:06,080
Speaker 5: So she's distributing the failure this largely to like, well,

1857
01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:08,040
Speaker 5: there wasn't sufficient consciousness. So it's like, well, no, like

1858
01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:11,200
Speaker 5: this system, even if everyone wanted it to work, this

1859
01:47:11,280 --> 01:47:13,880
Speaker 5: system couldn't have worked because it was set up in

1860
01:47:14,000 --> 01:47:16,800
Speaker 5: such a way that it was. And this is something

1861
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:17,920
Speaker 5: you know, this is part of why I want to

1862
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:20,040
Speaker 5: talk to you about. This was that if you look

1863
01:47:20,080 --> 01:47:24,640
Speaker 5: at the way that that the Spanish system is set up, right,

1864
01:47:25,560 --> 01:47:30,200
Speaker 5: it's it's built off of coordination, like basically like sectoral

1865
01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:34,160
Speaker 5: coordination between everyone who's doing a thing, right, It's built

1866
01:47:34,200 --> 01:47:36,960
Speaker 5: on resource sharing. If I'm remembering my stuff, right, I

1867
01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:40,080
Speaker 5: mean they have basically they have a banking union, and

1868
01:47:40,160 --> 01:47:42,639
Speaker 5: people put their profits into the into the banking union,

1869
01:47:42,760 --> 01:47:44,960
Speaker 5: and then people can get money from the banking union

1870
01:47:45,080 --> 01:47:46,519
Speaker 5: to reinvest in other places.

1871
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:51,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that's correct. It's also like, yeah, this this,

1872
01:47:51,760 --> 01:47:54,320
Speaker 6: I guess would that be called vertical integration if it's

1873
01:47:54,360 --> 01:47:57,639
Speaker 6: the whole sector, even if it's they they.

1874
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:00,160
Speaker 5: Do this thing which takes advantage of both of the

1875
01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:03,800
Speaker 5: advantages of self management gives you, which is one like

1876
01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:05,759
Speaker 5: and like sort of you know, and it's like socialist

1877
01:48:05,760 --> 01:48:08,519
Speaker 5: self management, right, you have the advantage of scale, which

1878
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:10,360
Speaker 5: is that you're now instead of competing ast each other,

1879
01:48:10,439 --> 01:48:15,160
Speaker 5: you're now coordinating an entire sector, right, and you're you're

1880
01:48:15,200 --> 01:48:18,360
Speaker 5: producing stuff that you're producing stuff for need. And then

1881
01:48:18,640 --> 01:48:21,080
Speaker 5: on the other hand, you have the other thing that's

1882
01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:23,000
Speaker 5: supposed to be the advantage of self management, which is

1883
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:26,559
Speaker 5: that the workers themselves, who are the people who are

1884
01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:29,320
Speaker 5: supposed to understand that production process the best, can make

1885
01:48:29,400 --> 01:48:33,559
Speaker 5: decisions over how they're going to do things. But then

1886
01:48:33,640 --> 01:48:35,439
Speaker 5: if you look at the Algerian system, because it's because

1887
01:48:35,439 --> 01:48:38,120
Speaker 5: it's set up by Marxists, it's specifically designed such that

1888
01:48:39,360 --> 01:48:46,120
Speaker 5: basically like you're you're instead of you actually managing yourself,

1889
01:48:46,479 --> 01:48:50,240
Speaker 5: you're you're just electing your boss, and then your boss manages, right,

1890
01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:52,679
Speaker 5: And that's not actually good. This is and it's weird

1891
01:48:52,680 --> 01:48:55,679
Speaker 5: because looking at this, right, this is actually a worst

1892
01:48:55,760 --> 01:48:58,600
Speaker 5: system in terms of self management, I think in a

1893
01:48:58,640 --> 01:49:01,599
Speaker 5: lot of senses than the Chinese, because the Chinese system

1894
01:49:01,680 --> 01:49:04,679
Speaker 5: is not designed for self management. But you can't fire people.

1895
01:49:06,200 --> 01:49:08,599
Speaker 5: So because you can't fire people, you have to listen

1896
01:49:08,680 --> 01:49:10,640
Speaker 5: to what people think and what people sort of do.

1897
01:49:10,920 --> 01:49:15,160
Speaker 5: Is this system, I don't know. It pisces me off

1898
01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:19,880
Speaker 5: because this is a revolution that very very easily could

1899
01:49:19,960 --> 01:49:24,320
Speaker 5: have worked, but it was you know, there's intentional sabotage

1900
01:49:24,360 --> 01:49:26,080
Speaker 5: by the state because most of the sectors of the

1901
01:49:26,120 --> 01:49:27,320
Speaker 5: state don't want this to work.

1902
01:49:27,479 --> 01:49:28,040
Speaker 2: And then.

1903
01:49:29,800 --> 01:49:33,120
Speaker 5: Just structurally from the way it's set up, it's doomed

1904
01:49:33,120 --> 01:49:34,920
Speaker 5: to fail from the beginning. And the consequence of this

1905
01:49:35,200 --> 01:49:38,559
Speaker 5: is that in nineteen sixty five, Ben Bella gets overthrown

1906
01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:41,840
Speaker 5: in a coup by another sort of but basically the army,

1907
01:49:44,160 --> 01:49:46,400
Speaker 5: a sort of state socialist faction of the army, and

1908
01:49:46,520 --> 01:49:51,040
Speaker 5: they hold on to power by basically turning Algeria into

1909
01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:55,840
Speaker 5: an oil economy. Yeah, and dismantling this entire thing. And

1910
01:49:56,600 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 5: I don't know, it makes me really angry because the

1911
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:05,200
Speaker 5: the the like the actual Algerian ruling class had the

1912
01:50:05,320 --> 01:50:09,639
Speaker 5: right idea and then they just got completely fucked by

1913
01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:14,720
Speaker 5: everyone who was supposed to be leading them, or you know,

1914
01:50:14,880 --> 01:50:16,639
Speaker 5: the people who were supposed to be selling the stuff

1915
01:50:16,680 --> 01:50:19,559
Speaker 5: that they made, people who are supposed to be reinvesting,

1916
01:50:19,640 --> 01:50:23,240
Speaker 5: all the people who ended up with the financial control

1917
01:50:24,400 --> 01:50:29,200
Speaker 5: just completely screwed them. And yeah, I don't know, it's

1918
01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:33,400
Speaker 5: it's it's really it's it's it's really depressing in a

1919
01:50:33,439 --> 01:50:35,040
Speaker 5: lot of ways. But on the other hand, right, like,

1920
01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:38,559
Speaker 5: it doesn't it doesn't. It doesn't have to go like this, Right,

1921
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:42,639
Speaker 5: you don't have to hand control of your workplace over

1922
01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:49,120
Speaker 5: to some fucking guy in the Department of Agricultural Waste

1923
01:50:49,240 --> 01:50:52,680
Speaker 5: Management or whatever so he can use your origines for

1924
01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:55,920
Speaker 5: fertilizer like you can. You can simply not do this.

1925
01:50:57,000 --> 01:50:59,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I didn't know the exact situation that

1926
01:50:59,720 --> 01:51:01,479
Speaker 6: these were work has found themselves in, and maybe there

1927
01:51:01,600 --> 01:51:03,800
Speaker 6: was you know, like a degree of sort of need

1928
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:07,160
Speaker 6: to get reproducing in order to solve hunger issues.

1929
01:51:07,280 --> 01:51:10,240
Speaker 2: But yeah, you simply do not have to do that.

1930
01:51:10,439 --> 01:51:15,840
Speaker 6: As many examples. I'm thinking of the collectivized farms in

1931
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:18,080
Speaker 6: Spain as well, because perhaps they would have been a

1932
01:51:18,160 --> 01:51:21,439
Speaker 6: better example, right, I guess there it was slightly different

1933
01:51:21,479 --> 01:51:24,640
Speaker 6: because it was somewhat of a collectivized community that in

1934
01:51:24,720 --> 01:51:30,400
Speaker 6: turn collectivized the land as opposed to collectivizing the agricultural labor.

1935
01:51:30,600 --> 01:51:33,920
Speaker 6: And then you have this sort of source of labor

1936
01:51:33,920 --> 01:51:36,519
Speaker 6: which is not inherently tied to the land that like,

1937
01:51:36,920 --> 01:51:39,599
Speaker 6: you know, when when there was a need, like for instance,

1938
01:51:40,280 --> 01:51:43,360
Speaker 6: I'm writing a book right now and writing about the

1939
01:51:43,400 --> 01:51:45,920
Speaker 6: Druti column, and like they would because they had less

1940
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:48,880
Speaker 6: rifles than they had fighters, they would rotate their fighters

1941
01:51:48,920 --> 01:51:51,680
Speaker 6: off the front line during the harvest time and have

1942
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:55,400
Speaker 6: people help with the harvest, and then they didn't like

1943
01:51:55,520 --> 01:51:56,840
Speaker 6: need those people the rest of the year. Right, So

1944
01:51:56,880 --> 01:52:01,320
Speaker 6: they were able to incorporate like temporary surgeries in labor

1945
01:52:01,600 --> 01:52:05,400
Speaker 6: without it being like destructive to their model, because it

1946
01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:08,839
Speaker 6: was the idea was like a collective community as opposed

1947
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:12,719
Speaker 6: to a collective as opposed to like just the workplace

1948
01:52:12,840 --> 01:52:17,679
Speaker 6: being this island of pseudo collectivisation, like you're saying in Algeria.

1949
01:52:18,560 --> 01:52:21,040
Speaker 6: Also shout out to the Iron column who I've been

1950
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:24,000
Speaker 6: writing about recently, who solved their supply side issues by

1951
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:28,479
Speaker 6: leaving the front line and raiding the cops because they

1952
01:52:28,520 --> 01:52:30,640
Speaker 6: didn't have enough guns either, so they simply took them

1953
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:35,519
Speaker 6: from the cops. Telling Yeah, incredibly based, Yeah, very bag.

1954
01:52:35,640 --> 01:52:35,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1955
01:52:35,920 --> 01:52:38,080
Speaker 5: I think I think that's kind of the point that

1956
01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:40,600
Speaker 5: I want to end this on, which is that you know,

1957
01:52:40,800 --> 01:52:45,240
Speaker 5: there's something that that contributes to the collapse of Slavia too,

1958
01:52:45,560 --> 01:52:51,400
Speaker 5: is that if you know, the dichotomy they got forced

1959
01:52:51,680 --> 01:52:57,680
Speaker 5: on people in the twentieth century was you can either choose.

1960
01:52:58,920 --> 01:52:59,120
Speaker 6: Two.

1961
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:02,080
Speaker 5: Okay, so your choices are you get a you get

1962
01:53:02,120 --> 01:53:05,040
Speaker 5: a sort of you get a styalinus planned economy completely

1963
01:53:05,080 --> 01:53:07,200
Speaker 5: run by the state, or you get a bunch of

1964
01:53:07,240 --> 01:53:09,599
Speaker 5: workers cooperatives competing against each other. And those are, like, you're,

1965
01:53:09,640 --> 01:53:13,920
Speaker 5: those are your two models of socialism, and those both suck,

1966
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:16,719
Speaker 5: and both are set up to fail from the beginning

1967
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:19,840
Speaker 5: because they're not actually you know, you're you're you're you're

1968
01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:23,800
Speaker 5: you're not actually doing the thing, you're not actually having

1969
01:53:23,880 --> 01:53:29,040
Speaker 5: the entire the entire class as a class, you know,

1970
01:53:29,960 --> 01:53:34,960
Speaker 5: abolishing itself. And then also managing managing production in such

1971
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:37,479
Speaker 5: a way that people are cooperating to produce what people

1972
01:53:37,479 --> 01:53:41,920
Speaker 5: need instead of everyone fighting over like either well instead

1973
01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:45,160
Speaker 5: of either the state setting a steel quota and having

1974
01:53:45,240 --> 01:53:47,960
Speaker 5: that be the entire goal of the economy, or like

1975
01:53:49,000 --> 01:53:52,080
Speaker 5: seventeen co ops and the like both producing all producing

1976
01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:54,000
Speaker 5: the exact same kind of coffee trying to figure out

1977
01:53:54,000 --> 01:53:55,080
Speaker 5: who can produce it more cheaply.

1978
01:53:56,160 --> 01:53:59,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, we we can do better, Yes we can, and

1979
01:53:59,439 --> 01:54:02,519
Speaker 6: we have, and so we should describe for I guess

1980
01:54:02,880 --> 01:54:05,959
Speaker 6: I know. If people want to read about the Spanish Revolution,

1981
01:54:07,000 --> 01:54:09,439
Speaker 6: there's a ship ton of books on libcom. I would

1982
01:54:09,439 --> 01:54:13,519
Speaker 6: say Pat's book is pretty good. Send a Spanish Revolution.

1983
01:54:14,600 --> 01:54:17,160
Speaker 6: Mary Bookchin has a book that the heroic years of

1984
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:21,720
Speaker 6: Spanish anarchism. Able Paz has many books. Yes you can.

1985
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:23,519
Speaker 6: You can spend time on libcom and read a lot

1986
01:54:23,560 --> 01:54:26,639
Speaker 6: about collective production in the Spanish Revolution, and for free,

1987
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:27,519
Speaker 6: which is nice.

1988
01:54:27,880 --> 01:54:28,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just been taken.

1989
01:54:28,720 --> 01:54:32,640
Speaker 5: Happy here, go take over your workplace and then also

1990
01:54:33,040 --> 01:54:35,840
Speaker 5: help everyone else take over theirs and coordinate with each other.

1991
01:54:36,560 --> 01:54:38,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, that would be very nice. And then then we'll

1992
01:54:38,280 --> 01:54:39,800
Speaker 6: do an interview with you on the podcast.

1993
01:54:40,320 --> 01:55:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, welcome back to it could have hear a podcast

1994
01:55:02,680 --> 01:55:08,680
Speaker 2: about things falling apart, and also about militant resistance, which

1995
01:55:08,800 --> 01:55:11,920
Speaker 2: is an aspect of things falling apart. As things fall

1996
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:14,920
Speaker 2: apart any country, you get people who crawl out of

1997
01:55:14,920 --> 01:55:19,280
Speaker 2: the woodwork to either accelerate that process or try to

1998
01:55:19,360 --> 01:55:21,560
Speaker 2: reverse it in their own lives, and some of those

1999
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:25,040
Speaker 2: people use weapons to do that. Now, we've talked a

2000
01:55:25,080 --> 01:55:28,040
Speaker 2: bunch on this show about the various forms that militant

2001
01:55:28,120 --> 01:55:33,960
Speaker 2: resistance can take. We've chatted extensively on this network about Rojava.

2002
01:55:34,360 --> 01:55:36,800
Speaker 2: We've talked a fair amount James Stout and I. James

2003
01:55:36,920 --> 01:55:39,000
Speaker 2: is on the show today, by the way, Hello James,

2004
01:55:39,200 --> 01:55:41,880
Speaker 2: Hi Robert. We've talked a lot about me and mar

2005
01:55:42,560 --> 01:55:46,400
Speaker 2: and the gin Z Revolution, there three D printing of

2006
01:55:46,760 --> 01:55:51,120
Speaker 2: firearms and kind of this war that these people have

2007
01:55:51,240 --> 01:55:56,000
Speaker 2: been waging in the Jungles successfully in order to overthrow

2008
01:55:56,120 --> 01:55:59,480
Speaker 2: the military dictatorship of their country. But we haven't talked

2009
01:55:59,480 --> 01:56:02,839
Speaker 2: a whole lot about naval warfare. And this is because

2010
01:56:02,960 --> 01:56:05,440
Speaker 2: for most of history, for most of at least our

2011
01:56:05,520 --> 01:56:09,560
Speaker 2: recent history, naval warfare was not really a thing insurgents

2012
01:56:09,600 --> 01:56:12,120
Speaker 2: could engage in, right, you know, you could every now

2013
01:56:12,160 --> 01:56:13,720
Speaker 2: and then if a ship was docked or something, you

2014
01:56:13,800 --> 01:56:15,200
Speaker 2: might be able to get off a bombing, right, like

2015
01:56:15,280 --> 01:56:18,480
Speaker 2: what happened to us as coal. And I'm not expressing

2016
01:56:18,600 --> 01:56:23,360
Speaker 2: general sympathy for everybody who does a militant insurgent act,

2017
01:56:23,480 --> 01:56:25,200
Speaker 2: but I am talking about like the overall kind of

2018
01:56:25,280 --> 01:56:28,200
Speaker 2: like tactics and strategy that underline how that stuff works.

2019
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:30,600
Speaker 2: And one of the things that's really changed in the

2020
01:56:30,680 --> 01:56:33,360
Speaker 2: last couple of years, since twenty twenty two, you could

2021
01:56:33,360 --> 01:56:37,240
Speaker 2: really mark it out, is that irregular non state groups

2022
01:56:37,560 --> 01:56:41,120
Speaker 2: can now to an extent never before possible challenge the

2023
01:56:41,240 --> 01:56:44,800
Speaker 2: sea power of nations like the United States, which has

2024
01:56:44,920 --> 01:56:48,960
Speaker 2: an unquestioned, previously at least unquestioned level of dominance in

2025
01:56:49,040 --> 01:56:52,320
Speaker 2: sort of conventional naval power. And we talked about conventional

2026
01:56:52,400 --> 01:56:55,480
Speaker 2: naval power in the twenty first century. That means aircraft

2027
01:56:55,560 --> 01:56:58,520
Speaker 2: carrier groups. Right, the US has eleven of them, which,

2028
01:56:58,560 --> 01:57:00,680
Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, is more than the of the world.

2029
01:57:01,040 --> 01:57:04,600
Speaker 2: We have a lot of fucking aircraft carriers. And previously

2030
01:57:04,760 --> 01:57:07,400
Speaker 2: that was believed to be you know, a guarantee of

2031
01:57:07,440 --> 01:57:10,040
Speaker 2: book dominance on sea, and if a carrier group or

2032
01:57:10,080 --> 01:57:12,560
Speaker 2: two is in the area, you generally we generally, the

2033
01:57:12,680 --> 01:57:16,280
Speaker 2: United States generally could count on having air supremacy. You

2034
01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:19,520
Speaker 2: certainly wouldn't expect it to be countered. You know, you

2035
01:57:19,560 --> 01:57:21,480
Speaker 2: could expect, like, for example, if we were to have

2036
01:57:21,480 --> 01:57:25,200
Speaker 2: a conflict over Taiwan, the Chinese navy could or the

2037
01:57:25,320 --> 01:57:29,600
Speaker 2: Chinese army could potentially interdict a carrier group using ground

2038
01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:32,720
Speaker 2: based you know, ground to see anti ship missiles or

2039
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:35,160
Speaker 2: something like that. But we're increasingly in an era in

2040
01:57:35,240 --> 01:57:38,560
Speaker 2: which these kind of irregular non state groups have access

2041
01:57:38,600 --> 01:57:41,360
Speaker 2: to similar technology and have access to kind of even

2042
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:45,680
Speaker 2: more bespoke technology like drone swarms that poses a unique

2043
01:57:45,760 --> 01:57:48,720
Speaker 2: threat to the naval dominance of the United States. And

2044
01:57:48,880 --> 01:57:50,880
Speaker 2: I wanted to start you know, we've got a two

2045
01:57:50,920 --> 01:57:52,760
Speaker 2: part of here. We're going to be talking about the

2046
01:57:52,880 --> 01:57:55,160
Speaker 2: Huthis and Yemen. We're going to be talking about the

2047
01:57:55,240 --> 01:57:58,000
Speaker 2: Ukrainian navy, which does not really have much in the

2048
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:00,720
Speaker 2: way of boats, but it is still challenging the Russian Navy.

2049
01:58:01,040 --> 01:58:04,000
Speaker 2: And we're going to be talking about rebels in Myanmar.

2050
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:06,600
Speaker 2: We're going to start today, we'll be talking about the

2051
01:58:06,680 --> 01:58:09,920
Speaker 2: Huthi and to understand Houthi resistance to the United States

2052
01:58:09,960 --> 01:58:12,879
Speaker 2: and why a militant group has had such success challenging

2053
01:58:13,040 --> 01:58:16,080
Speaker 2: US naval power. You first have to understand how they

2054
01:58:16,200 --> 01:58:18,160
Speaker 2: got to the point that they're at right now, where

2055
01:58:18,200 --> 01:58:19,600
Speaker 2: they are kind of in a lot of ways a

2056
01:58:19,720 --> 01:58:23,520
Speaker 2: near state actor, you know, not a world power actor,

2057
01:58:23,560 --> 01:58:26,320
Speaker 2: but near state actor. You know, they're probably more capable

2058
01:58:26,400 --> 01:58:28,720
Speaker 2: in some ways than the State of Yemen, which they

2059
01:58:28,760 --> 01:58:31,920
Speaker 2: are at war with. Yeah, yeah, And to get how

2060
01:58:31,960 --> 01:58:33,880
Speaker 2: they got to that point, you have to understand what

2061
01:58:34,000 --> 01:58:37,760
Speaker 2: happened with their fight against the Saudis. So the Houthi

2062
01:58:37,920 --> 01:58:41,400
Speaker 2: Movement or ansar Allah, which means Supporters of God, is

2063
01:58:41,440 --> 01:58:44,880
Speaker 2: a Zaidi Shia Islamist movement run primarily by members of

2064
01:58:44,920 --> 01:58:48,120
Speaker 2: the Huthi tribe. Zaidi Islam is a bit of an

2065
01:58:48,240 --> 01:58:50,360
Speaker 2: odd duck. You'll hear it described as, yeah, like a

2066
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:54,840
Speaker 2: Shia segment. It's really probably more accurate to look at

2067
01:58:54,880 --> 01:58:57,520
Speaker 2: it as like it's kind of in between Shia and

2068
01:58:57,680 --> 01:59:01,280
Speaker 2: Sunni of like the Shia kind of denominations. It's kind

2069
01:59:01,280 --> 01:59:04,520
Speaker 2: of closest to being Sunni. I'm not an expert on

2070
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:06,320
Speaker 2: any of this, but it comes out of a guy

2071
01:59:06,400 --> 01:59:09,880
Speaker 2: named Zaid iban Ali's rebellion against the Umiyad Caliphate, which

2072
01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:13,200
Speaker 2: did not succeed, but we still have the Zaidi. What

2073
01:59:13,440 --> 01:59:16,400
Speaker 2: matters for our purposes today is that the Huthi as

2074
01:59:16,440 --> 01:59:20,480
Speaker 2: a movement came out of opposition to the Yemen's president

2075
01:59:20,960 --> 01:59:24,560
Speaker 2: Abi Abdullah Salah, who was corrupt as hell. He was

2076
01:59:24,600 --> 01:59:26,760
Speaker 2: seen as corrupt, and he was in fact corrupt as hell,

2077
01:59:27,040 --> 01:59:28,800
Speaker 2: and he was. It was specifically they were they were

2078
01:59:28,840 --> 01:59:31,879
Speaker 2: accusing him of basically being bribed by the Saudis. That's

2079
01:59:31,920 --> 01:59:34,400
Speaker 2: where like the Houthi started the rebellion in around two

2080
01:59:34,400 --> 01:59:37,520
Speaker 2: thousand and three. So they began as a resistance movement

2081
01:59:37,560 --> 01:59:41,200
Speaker 2: to this corrupt president Salah. They adopted the slogan God

2082
01:59:41,320 --> 01:59:44,200
Speaker 2: is the Greatest, Death to America, death to Israel, and

2083
01:59:44,400 --> 01:59:47,240
Speaker 2: a curse upon the Jews, which is still their slogan.

2084
01:59:47,360 --> 01:59:51,480
Speaker 2: So they are not what you would call unproblematic. Again,

2085
01:59:52,120 --> 01:59:55,640
Speaker 2: but now that they applied out there, they're they're not

2086
01:59:55,760 --> 01:59:57,800
Speaker 2: hiding it, you know, dig for this stuff.

2087
01:59:58,120 --> 02:00:01,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I'm using the triple parentheses

2088
02:00:01,200 --> 02:00:02,480
Speaker 6: they say the thing.

2089
02:00:03,040 --> 02:00:05,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's you know, part of why we're talking

2090
02:00:05,120 --> 02:00:07,560
Speaker 2: about a regular naval warfare is that who knows what

2091
02:00:07,640 --> 02:00:11,400
Speaker 2: the next few years are going to include. It's always

2092
02:00:11,480 --> 02:00:13,680
Speaker 2: a long shot, but there's not a zero percent chance

2093
02:00:13,760 --> 02:00:16,440
Speaker 2: that people listening to this will wind up engaged in

2094
02:00:16,560 --> 02:00:20,200
Speaker 2: some sort of irregular conflict. And that's it's important to

2095
02:00:20,360 --> 02:00:24,000
Speaker 2: understand how modern technology has changed the dimensions of how

2096
02:00:24,080 --> 02:00:26,160
Speaker 2: that works from like a naval perspective, So that's why

2097
02:00:26,200 --> 02:00:30,160
Speaker 2: we're talking about this now. Hoothy armed activities against the

2098
02:00:30,240 --> 02:00:33,920
Speaker 2: Saudis really kicked off and hit a major level after

2099
02:00:34,000 --> 02:00:37,320
Speaker 2: the Yemeni Civil War, which officially started in twenty fourteen.

2100
02:00:37,840 --> 02:00:40,440
Speaker 2: The new president of Yemen, who was not Salah at

2101
02:00:40,480 --> 02:00:43,680
Speaker 2: this point, asked for military support from the international community,

2102
02:00:44,000 --> 02:00:46,839
Speaker 2: which in this case meant the Saudis right. So the Saudis.

2103
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:50,480
Speaker 2: It's called a coalition. There's technically some other people involved,

2104
02:00:50,560 --> 02:00:53,680
Speaker 2: but it's the Saudis right, and the president of Yemen

2105
02:00:53,800 --> 02:00:56,320
Speaker 2: calls in the Saudis when his forces are kicked out

2106
02:00:56,400 --> 02:01:00,200
Speaker 2: of the capital of Yemen, Sana, by Hoothy fighters. The

2107
02:01:00,240 --> 02:01:02,600
Speaker 2: way when the Hoothy take Sana is when they get

2108
02:01:02,640 --> 02:01:05,640
Speaker 2: their first cruise missiles, largely just like a bunch of

2109
02:01:05,760 --> 02:01:09,360
Speaker 2: scuds and stuff, so like old Soviet shit, right. Operation

2110
02:01:09,600 --> 02:01:12,760
Speaker 2: Decisive Storm is the name that Saudi Arabia gives to

2111
02:01:12,880 --> 02:01:15,080
Speaker 2: their intervention in Yemen, and a lot of people will

2112
02:01:15,080 --> 02:01:19,200
Speaker 2: say this is basically Saudi Arabia's Vietnam, not an inappropriate

2113
02:01:19,280 --> 02:01:22,520
Speaker 2: comparison to make. So the Saudis start bombing the shit

2114
02:01:22,760 --> 02:01:25,360
Speaker 2: out of the Houthi and then they send in ground forces,

2115
02:01:25,400 --> 02:01:27,800
Speaker 2: because bombing the shit out of people who are motivated

2116
02:01:27,960 --> 02:01:30,800
Speaker 2: never really works as well as you want it to, right.

2117
02:01:30,880 --> 02:01:32,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, a lot of people have been bombing a lot

2118
02:01:32,720 --> 02:01:35,600
Speaker 6: of people. I mean, you can destroy that of shit,

2119
02:01:35,680 --> 02:01:37,800
Speaker 6: you can kill a load of civilians.

2120
02:01:37,800 --> 02:01:39,560
Speaker 2: And kill a shitload of civilians.

2121
02:01:39,720 --> 02:01:43,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, but many, many such cases if you're looking around

2122
02:01:43,720 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 6: the world right now. But yeah, one thing that doesn't

2123
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:49,000
Speaker 6: tend to do is really get rid of motivated fighters.

2124
02:01:49,280 --> 02:01:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you've got an air force, everything looks like Dresden.

2125
02:01:52,760 --> 02:01:55,160
Speaker 2: So the Saudis try that for a while. They send

2126
02:01:55,200 --> 02:01:58,640
Speaker 2: in ground forces, they carry out naval blockades. None of

2127
02:01:58,720 --> 02:02:01,640
Speaker 2: this does much but make Thethi's more determined, and they

2128
02:02:01,840 --> 02:02:04,960
Speaker 2: exit this conflict. I mean it's not like you wouldn't

2129
02:02:04,960 --> 02:02:07,360
Speaker 2: say completely done, but they exit this conflict with the

2130
02:02:07,440 --> 02:02:10,560
Speaker 2: Saudis a lot stronger, right, a lot more organized, with

2131
02:02:10,680 --> 02:02:12,720
Speaker 2: a lot better weapons, right, and a lot of this

2132
02:02:12,960 --> 02:02:14,880
Speaker 2: you know, so by the way, I should also state that,

2133
02:02:15,000 --> 02:02:16,800
Speaker 2: like now, the Houthis are on the side of former

2134
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:20,400
Speaker 2: President Sala It's a complicated conflict, right, but at the

2135
02:02:20,480 --> 02:02:22,400
Speaker 2: end of this all they have a shitload of Iranian

2136
02:02:22,480 --> 02:02:26,560
Speaker 2: weapons because Iran is a geopolitical enemy of Saudi Arabia

2137
02:02:26,920 --> 02:02:28,920
Speaker 2: and they see the Houthis as allies, and so they

2138
02:02:28,960 --> 02:02:31,720
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time this during this conflict shipping

2139
02:02:31,800 --> 02:02:34,720
Speaker 2: in agtms, which are wire guided missiles that are just

2140
02:02:34,880 --> 02:02:38,080
Speaker 2: aces and blasting holes in Saudi Arabia's tanks, which are

2141
02:02:38,520 --> 02:02:40,960
Speaker 2: US supplied. If I'm not mistaken as a general, Yeah,

2142
02:02:40,960 --> 02:02:43,560
Speaker 2: a lot of Saudi Arabia stuff is US and like, yeah,

2143
02:02:43,680 --> 02:02:45,960
Speaker 2: basic most of it, right, much of it? Yeah, Yeah,

2144
02:02:46,000 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 2: there are a lot of contractors over there.

2145
02:02:47,720 --> 02:02:47,920
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2146
02:02:48,200 --> 02:02:50,200
Speaker 2: And you know, the Houthis they make a lot in

2147
02:02:50,560 --> 02:02:53,360
Speaker 2: like waves and kind of people who are following a

2148
02:02:53,440 --> 02:02:56,360
Speaker 2: regular conflicts during this period in the late aughts because

2149
02:02:56,360 --> 02:02:59,200
Speaker 2: they're so successful in taking out these tanks that had

2150
02:02:59,240 --> 02:03:02,200
Speaker 2: previously been pretty hard to fuck up. And it's kind

2151
02:03:02,240 --> 02:03:05,200
Speaker 2: of you know, now, agtms in Ukraine are like one

2152
02:03:05,240 --> 02:03:08,320
Speaker 2: of the dominant weapons systems that has shaped the battlefield environment.

2153
02:03:08,360 --> 02:03:10,640
Speaker 2: But this is kind of when people start to realize, oh, fuck,

2154
02:03:11,000 --> 02:03:13,280
Speaker 2: you know Syria as well, these are This is really

2155
02:03:13,360 --> 02:03:15,880
Speaker 2: going to change a lot about how armor gets used.

2156
02:03:16,240 --> 02:03:17,680
Speaker 2: And this is also where we start to see the

2157
02:03:17,720 --> 02:03:22,240
Speaker 2: first Hothi deployments of ballistic missiles, which were used sort

2158
02:03:22,280 --> 02:03:25,440
Speaker 2: of they initially used them, not dissimilarly to how the

2159
02:03:26,160 --> 02:03:29,600
Speaker 2: Germans used V twos right in World War Two. There

2160
02:03:29,640 --> 02:03:32,960
Speaker 2: are terror weapons and they're used in retaliation for Saudi

2161
02:03:33,000 --> 02:03:35,880
Speaker 2: Arabia's use of a terror weapon, which is US jets

2162
02:03:35,880 --> 02:03:38,360
Speaker 2: and missiles. Right, So Saudi Arabia is terror bombing Yemen,

2163
02:03:38,640 --> 02:03:42,120
Speaker 2: and Yemen starts firing missiles back at Saudi Arabia because

2164
02:03:42,360 --> 02:03:45,600
Speaker 2: you know that's what you do, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2165
02:03:45,680 --> 02:03:47,280
Speaker 2: And I'm going to quote here from an article in

2166
02:03:47,320 --> 02:03:51,040
Speaker 2: the National News, quote Huthi militias and Yemen launched and

2167
02:03:51,120 --> 02:03:53,440
Speaker 2: this is from twenty twenty two. Huthi militias and Yemen

2168
02:03:53,520 --> 02:03:56,160
Speaker 2: launched ballistic missiles at Abu Dhabi and Saudi Arabia on

2169
02:03:56,240 --> 02:03:59,120
Speaker 2: Monday and the latest attack on neighboring states. Two missiles

2170
02:03:59,160 --> 02:04:01,520
Speaker 2: were destroyed in mid flight during the attempted terrorist attack

2171
02:04:01,560 --> 02:04:04,040
Speaker 2: on Abu Dhabi while in Saudi Arabia, one was shot

2172
02:04:04,080 --> 02:04:07,160
Speaker 2: down and another missile wounded two civilians in an industrial area.

2173
02:04:07,560 --> 02:04:09,240
Speaker 2: So this is that gives you an idea of like

2174
02:04:09,560 --> 02:04:11,600
Speaker 2: where they are a couple of years ago. And these

2175
02:04:11,640 --> 02:04:15,000
Speaker 2: are not super advanced cruise missiles, as you can see

2176
02:04:15,040 --> 02:04:17,400
Speaker 2: by that kind of like casualty rate. Right, they're not

2177
02:04:17,560 --> 02:04:20,680
Speaker 2: doing massive amounts of damage, but they caused terror. Right.

2178
02:04:20,760 --> 02:04:22,720
Speaker 2: It's scary to know that a missile could come out

2179
02:04:22,720 --> 02:04:24,720
Speaker 2: of the sky and kill some of you, and it's

2180
02:04:25,040 --> 02:04:27,200
Speaker 2: you know, from their perspective, how else are they going

2181
02:04:27,280 --> 02:04:28,920
Speaker 2: to strike back? They don't have an air force in

2182
02:04:29,000 --> 02:04:31,400
Speaker 2: the conventional sense, but what we do see here is

2183
02:04:31,600 --> 02:04:34,160
Speaker 2: by being able to carry out these attacks back on

2184
02:04:34,400 --> 02:04:36,960
Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia who's bombing them, despite not having an air

2185
02:04:37,000 --> 02:04:40,960
Speaker 2: force of their own. You already see how new technology

2186
02:04:41,080 --> 02:04:44,600
Speaker 2: and cruise missiles aren't new technology, but them being available

2187
02:04:45,040 --> 02:04:48,560
Speaker 2: to a non state actor is fairly new. You see

2188
02:04:48,600 --> 02:04:51,320
Speaker 2: how that has already changed the game in terms of

2189
02:04:51,400 --> 02:04:53,880
Speaker 2: like you can't really say the Saudis don't have this

2190
02:04:54,400 --> 02:04:57,360
Speaker 2: air supremacy. You can still say they have air supremacy

2191
02:04:57,400 --> 02:04:59,840
Speaker 2: because again, the Huthis don't have much in the way

2192
02:04:59,840 --> 02:05:03,880
Speaker 2: of air power at this point, but they can't stop

2193
02:05:04,120 --> 02:05:06,880
Speaker 2: missiles from hitting their cities entirely, which is a different

2194
02:05:06,960 --> 02:05:09,640
Speaker 2: game than when you know that's not really a possibility.

2195
02:05:10,040 --> 02:05:14,720
Speaker 2: The Houthy arsenal today includes a dizzying array of different Iranian, Soviet, Syrian,

2196
02:05:14,840 --> 02:05:19,520
Speaker 2: and indigenously produced rockets, including the Burkhan three missiles. These

2197
02:05:19,560 --> 02:05:22,120
Speaker 2: are for long range strikes up to twelve hundred kilometers,

2198
02:05:22,400 --> 02:05:24,960
Speaker 2: and the botter P one rockets, which have one hundred

2199
02:05:24,960 --> 02:05:27,640
Speaker 2: and twenty two one hundred and sixty kilometer range. They

2200
02:05:27,680 --> 02:05:30,320
Speaker 2: also have old Soviet Frog sevens, which are useful to

2201
02:05:30,360 --> 02:05:34,080
Speaker 2: about sixty five kilometers. None of these are accurate in

2202
02:05:34,240 --> 02:05:37,240
Speaker 2: cruise missile terms, you know, but they work well enough

2203
02:05:37,280 --> 02:05:41,160
Speaker 2: for the Houthy's purposes. The botter P is indigenously produced.

2204
02:05:41,200 --> 02:05:43,480
Speaker 2: It's made by the Houthies. It's thought to be based

2205
02:05:43,520 --> 02:05:47,480
Speaker 2: on the Syrian Kaibar rocket. It is unguided, and experts

2206
02:05:47,520 --> 02:05:50,360
Speaker 2: will say it's closer to being functioning as just like

2207
02:05:50,600 --> 02:05:54,720
Speaker 2: dumb artillery than an actual cruise missile. Un inspectors claim

2208
02:05:54,800 --> 02:05:57,960
Speaker 2: quote it is produced locally from steel tubing, very likely

2209
02:05:58,080 --> 02:06:00,880
Speaker 2: sourced from the oil industry. You hear this a lot

2210
02:06:01,120 --> 02:06:03,240
Speaker 2: in a regular conflict in the Middle East. When I

2211
02:06:03,360 --> 02:06:07,000
Speaker 2: was in Mosel covering the fighting with Isis, their mortars

2212
02:06:07,040 --> 02:06:09,120
Speaker 2: were made off out of tubing that was like part

2213
02:06:09,160 --> 02:06:11,440
Speaker 2: of construction projects. I think that traced back to the

2214
02:06:11,480 --> 02:06:12,720
Speaker 2: oil industry, at least some of it.

2215
02:06:13,480 --> 02:06:13,600
Speaker 4: Now.

2216
02:06:13,640 --> 02:06:16,520
Speaker 2: There are several variants of this rocket, like the botter.

2217
02:06:16,520 --> 02:06:17,280
Speaker 4: F and the P one.

2218
02:06:17,320 --> 02:06:19,760
Speaker 2: It's not really useful going through all of them. You

2219
02:06:19,840 --> 02:06:23,320
Speaker 2: can find some interesting studies on this, but it's not

2220
02:06:23,480 --> 02:06:26,760
Speaker 2: necessary to understand their capabilities. Their most accurate missile, as

2221
02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:29,520
Speaker 2: far as I can tell, is the OTR twenty one Totshka,

2222
02:06:29,880 --> 02:06:32,440
Speaker 2: which has a range of about seventy two one hundred

2223
02:06:32,440 --> 02:06:35,440
Speaker 2: and twenty kilometers and a four hundred and eighty kilogram payload.

2224
02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:38,280
Speaker 2: They only are believed to have a few dozen of these,

2225
02:06:38,360 --> 02:06:41,120
Speaker 2: although that's an estimate from an earlier report, and these

2226
02:06:41,160 --> 02:06:43,520
Speaker 2: were the ones they would use most regularly on ground

2227
02:06:43,560 --> 02:06:46,520
Speaker 2: targets during the Saudi intervention when they needed a precise strike.

2228
02:06:46,560 --> 02:06:48,480
Speaker 2: And I'm going to quote from an article and an

2229
02:06:48,480 --> 02:06:52,120
Speaker 2: analysis of their missile capability. The Huthis first fired a

2230
02:06:52,200 --> 02:06:55,720
Speaker 2: Tatchka missile in September twenty fifteen, targeting the coalitions that's

2231
02:06:55,920 --> 02:06:59,280
Speaker 2: the Saudi's software military base in Mareb, Yemen. The strike

2232
02:06:59,360 --> 02:07:02,480
Speaker 2: hit a weapons orige depot and killed sixty coalition soldiers.

2233
02:07:02,720 --> 02:07:05,800
Speaker 2: The Houthis fired another tachka on December fourteenth, twenty fifteen,

2234
02:07:05,840 --> 02:07:09,160
Speaker 2: targeting a coalition base south of Taia's City in Taia's Yemen.

2235
02:07:09,600 --> 02:07:12,800
Speaker 2: The strike reportedly killed over one hundred and twenty coalition soldiers.

2236
02:07:13,000 --> 02:07:15,960
Speaker 2: The most recently recorded tachka fire took place on November nineteenth,

2237
02:07:16,040 --> 02:07:19,520
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, landing in a desert in eastern Marab Province.

2238
02:07:19,760 --> 02:07:22,360
Speaker 2: The target was unclear, but was likely the Arab Coalition's

2239
02:07:22,400 --> 02:07:26,080
Speaker 2: all weak military camp. So those are significant casualties. These

2240
02:07:26,120 --> 02:07:28,640
Speaker 2: are very effective weapons that do a lot of damage.

2241
02:07:28,800 --> 02:07:28,960
Speaker 4: Right.

2242
02:07:29,560 --> 02:07:29,800
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2243
02:07:40,360 --> 02:07:44,040
Speaker 2: Now, international experts, and especially if you read just kind

2244
02:07:44,080 --> 02:07:46,880
Speaker 2: of like think tank analysis of what the Hoothies are doing,

2245
02:07:46,960 --> 02:07:50,320
Speaker 2: we generally say all of this is only possible because

2246
02:07:50,520 --> 02:07:53,640
Speaker 2: of aid from Hisbolah and Iran. Right, That's the only

2247
02:07:53,720 --> 02:07:56,560
Speaker 2: reason the Houthis have these weapons. Right now, there is

2248
02:07:56,600 --> 02:07:59,440
Speaker 2: an arms embargo on Yemen. This has not stopped anyone

2249
02:07:59,520 --> 02:08:00,880
Speaker 2: from getting weapons to Yemen.

2250
02:08:01,000 --> 02:08:01,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2251
02:08:01,200 --> 02:08:04,680
Speaker 2: It also, to be very fair here, didn't stop anyone

2252
02:08:04,720 --> 02:08:06,800
Speaker 2: from didn't stop US from selling arms to the Saudis

2253
02:08:06,840 --> 02:08:09,080
Speaker 2: even though they're bringing those arms to Yemen, right.

2254
02:08:09,360 --> 02:08:13,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, fossible, ridiculous notion.

2255
02:08:13,760 --> 02:08:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know who you want to get angry

2256
02:08:15,680 --> 02:08:17,960
Speaker 2: or at here. I'm not really convinced either side is,

2257
02:08:18,640 --> 02:08:21,600
Speaker 2: you know, better than the other. Certainly the Saudis are

2258
02:08:21,640 --> 02:08:25,240
Speaker 2: not better, right right? Yeah that matters.

2259
02:08:25,320 --> 02:08:25,640
Speaker 1: I don't know.

2260
02:08:25,760 --> 02:08:28,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it's just a shit situation for people who

2261
02:08:28,280 --> 02:08:30,640
Speaker 6: are trying to get home with me to not get

2262
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:31,160
Speaker 6: blown up.

2263
02:08:31,320 --> 02:08:35,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, really bad situation. I think that is over

2264
02:08:36,000 --> 02:08:39,480
Speaker 2: selling it a bit. Obviously, Iranian AID is critical to

2265
02:08:39,520 --> 02:08:41,440
Speaker 2: the Hoothies and that that has gotten them a lot

2266
02:08:41,480 --> 02:08:43,800
Speaker 2: of their advanced weapons systems, So I don't want to

2267
02:08:43,920 --> 02:08:47,080
Speaker 2: undersell it. But at this point they are making a

2268
02:08:47,200 --> 02:08:50,520
Speaker 2: significant chunk of these of these cruise missiles, specifically some

2269
02:08:50,640 --> 02:08:54,720
Speaker 2: of the less advanced ones indigenously, So because of the

2270
02:08:54,800 --> 02:08:57,080
Speaker 2: state things you could, I think it is accurate to

2271
02:08:57,120 --> 02:08:59,720
Speaker 2: say that Iran was crucial to them getting to that state.

2272
02:08:59,800 --> 02:09:03,160
Speaker 2: But even without Iranian aid's there's a signe probably a

2273
02:09:03,200 --> 02:09:05,320
Speaker 2: significant degree of time to which they could continue to

2274
02:09:05,360 --> 02:09:08,200
Speaker 2: produce some of these weapons because they are making them themselves.

2275
02:09:08,680 --> 02:09:11,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, they make three fifty eight missiles, right, like looid terrain, yeah,

2276
02:09:11,880 --> 02:09:15,360
Speaker 6: anti aircraft. Yeah, yes, even if Iran it's not supplying,

2277
02:09:15,560 --> 02:09:19,160
Speaker 6: it's probably worth noting that like this isn't like an

2278
02:09:19,320 --> 02:09:23,840
Speaker 6: Iranian design or concept at least, and it allows for

2279
02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:26,680
Speaker 6: a lot of testing, a lot of like a real

2280
02:09:26,840 --> 02:09:30,240
Speaker 6: world kind of verses the NATO US.

2281
02:09:30,600 --> 02:09:34,000
Speaker 2: Let's see Iranians, Yeah, to test their weaponry. And again

2282
02:09:34,040 --> 02:09:36,400
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to undersell how important they are, just

2283
02:09:37,000 --> 02:09:38,280
Speaker 2: you get a lot of like, well, if we can

2284
02:09:38,360 --> 02:09:41,000
Speaker 2: just cut off Iranian trade, the hoothies will collapse. I

2285
02:09:41,840 --> 02:09:45,680
Speaker 2: think that's accurate anymore. Yeah, you know, I can't say

2286
02:09:45,720 --> 02:09:47,840
Speaker 2: that to a point a certainty, but yeah, I think

2287
02:09:47,880 --> 02:09:50,480
Speaker 2: that that's kind of wishful thinking on behalf of some people.

2288
02:09:50,720 --> 02:09:53,920
Speaker 2: So these are great weapons for a non state militant group. Again,

2289
02:09:54,000 --> 02:09:56,440
Speaker 2: this is this stuff. If you think back ten fifteen years,

2290
02:09:56,520 --> 02:09:59,960
Speaker 2: the idea of a non state insurgent group having access

2291
02:10:00,320 --> 02:10:03,040
Speaker 2: to a cruise missile library like this, you know, not

2292
02:10:03,160 --> 02:10:05,320
Speaker 2: to say about like the other weapons they have, the

2293
02:10:05,400 --> 02:10:07,280
Speaker 2: drones and stuff they have, it would have been kind

2294
02:10:07,320 --> 02:10:10,560
Speaker 2: of unprecedented. That said, these are not good weapons in

2295
02:10:10,600 --> 02:10:12,960
Speaker 2: the modern military sense of the word. But I mean

2296
02:10:13,000 --> 02:10:15,360
Speaker 2: they are not very accurate for the most part, and

2297
02:10:15,520 --> 02:10:17,600
Speaker 2: compared to more advanced missiles like the kind of the

2298
02:10:17,680 --> 02:10:20,920
Speaker 2: United States, Russia and China have, they are easy to

2299
02:10:21,120 --> 02:10:23,880
Speaker 2: shoot down with the kind of weapons systems aboard say,

2300
02:10:24,200 --> 02:10:27,600
Speaker 2: US aircraft carriers. We will discuss that more later. This

2301
02:10:27,800 --> 02:10:30,960
Speaker 2: is largely inconsequential to what's been happening in the Red

2302
02:10:31,040 --> 02:10:33,680
Speaker 2: Sea because the vast majority of naval traffic that passes

2303
02:10:33,720 --> 02:10:37,600
Speaker 2: by Houthi territory does not have access to say FAYLANX,

2304
02:10:37,760 --> 02:10:41,400
Speaker 2: FELANX systems. Yeah, you don't have much in the way

2305
02:10:41,440 --> 02:10:43,760
Speaker 2: of anti missile systems on a normal containers.

2306
02:10:44,040 --> 02:10:49,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, you have fanti bridge antiah rhyming devices. But like, yeah,

2307
02:10:49,280 --> 02:10:51,440
Speaker 6: it doesn't matter if your missile is not super accurate,

2308
02:10:51,480 --> 02:10:53,640
Speaker 6: if it can't defeat these expensive systems, if you're just

2309
02:10:54,120 --> 02:10:57,120
Speaker 6: eating them into a narrow channel anything that goes past

2310
02:10:57,320 --> 02:10:58,120
Speaker 6: right right right.

2311
02:10:58,400 --> 02:11:00,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the Houthis are aware of that, and this

2312
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:03,400
Speaker 2: is again an intelligent strategy on their part. You know,

2313
02:11:03,480 --> 02:11:05,800
Speaker 2: sometimes people get angry when you say that because they

2314
02:11:05,920 --> 02:11:08,000
Speaker 2: point out horrible things the Hoothis have done, which I

2315
02:11:08,040 --> 02:11:09,760
Speaker 2: don't want to deny, but we're not talking about the

2316
02:11:09,800 --> 02:11:12,080
Speaker 2: overall morality of this conflict. We're talking about how these

2317
02:11:12,120 --> 02:11:13,240
Speaker 2: tactics work, right.

2318
02:11:13,320 --> 02:11:16,440
Speaker 6: Right, Like the Nazis had intelligent and strategies as well.

2319
02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:18,560
Speaker 6: They were terrible fucking people, and I'm glad they asked

2320
02:11:18,640 --> 02:11:21,440
Speaker 6: them are mostly dead, but like, yeah, yeah, we would

2321
02:11:21,440 --> 02:11:23,720
Speaker 6: be unwise to just dismiss everything that they've been know.

2322
02:11:24,320 --> 02:11:27,000
Speaker 2: No, And likewise, the fact that the Houthi's right now

2323
02:11:27,120 --> 02:11:29,240
Speaker 2: that this interdiction of the Red Sea is based on

2324
02:11:29,280 --> 02:11:31,880
Speaker 2: an attempt to stop the genocide in Gaza, which I

2325
02:11:31,960 --> 02:11:34,880
Speaker 2: don't think it's going to work, but I would like

2326
02:11:35,000 --> 02:11:38,080
Speaker 2: it if somehow it did. That also does not have

2327
02:11:38,160 --> 02:11:40,720
Speaker 2: an impact on how this is working strategically, right, You

2328
02:11:40,800 --> 02:11:42,920
Speaker 2: are kind of setting all of that aside to just

2329
02:11:42,960 --> 02:11:46,800
Speaker 2: talk about how this is functioning, you know. Yeah. So

2330
02:11:47,000 --> 02:11:49,680
Speaker 2: in recent years, the Houthis have expanded their stock of

2331
02:11:49,760 --> 02:11:53,000
Speaker 2: anti ship missiles. In an article for the International Institute

2332
02:11:53,040 --> 02:11:56,240
Speaker 2: for Strategic Studies, a guy named Fabian hens Rights quote

2333
02:11:56,680 --> 02:11:59,680
Speaker 2: the parades these are Houthy military parades also featured of

2334
02:11:59,760 --> 02:12:03,400
Speaker 2: right of anti ship ballistic missiles ASBMs and guided rockets

2335
02:12:03,400 --> 02:12:07,360
Speaker 2: employing Iranian infrared or imaging infrared seeker technology. The four

2336
02:12:07,440 --> 02:12:10,040
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty kilometer range CEF appears to be a

2337
02:12:10,200 --> 02:12:13,680
Speaker 2: rebranded ASBM version of Iran's FATA three one three missile,

2338
02:12:13,960 --> 02:12:16,840
Speaker 2: while the Tongue Kill represents a previously unseen anti ship

2339
02:12:17,000 --> 02:12:21,760
Speaker 2: version of the IRGC Iranian Revolutionary GUARDCOREPS developed five hundred

2340
02:12:21,800 --> 02:12:25,560
Speaker 2: kilometer range so higher. The two designs constitute the heaviest,

2341
02:12:25,600 --> 02:12:28,040
Speaker 2: hoothy anti ship missiles, both with warheads of more than

2342
02:12:28,040 --> 02:12:32,240
Speaker 2: three hundred kilograms and are of Iranian origin. Three smaller ASBMs.

2343
02:12:32,280 --> 02:12:34,800
Speaker 2: The one hundred and forty kilometer range FLEK, the Mayun

2344
02:12:34,960 --> 02:12:38,680
Speaker 2: and the bar al Amar strongly resemble Iranian design philosophy

2345
02:12:38,760 --> 02:12:42,640
Speaker 2: and seeker technology, but do not precisely match known Iranian systems.

2346
02:12:42,800 --> 02:12:45,240
Speaker 2: They could either be Iranian systems not observed before in

2347
02:12:45,320 --> 02:12:48,520
Speaker 2: smuggle to Yemen, or Huthi produced rockets combined using Iranian

2348
02:12:48,560 --> 02:12:51,880
Speaker 2: guidance skits, not unlike developments made by another Iran proxy,

2349
02:12:51,960 --> 02:12:54,840
Speaker 2: the Lebanese has Belah in its precition guided surface to

2350
02:12:55,120 --> 02:12:58,280
Speaker 2: surface missile program. Finally, the Huthis have presented an S

2351
02:12:58,360 --> 02:13:01,480
Speaker 2: seventy five SA two surface to air missile, likely from

2352
02:13:01,520 --> 02:13:04,120
Speaker 2: pre war ye many army stocks modified for an anti

2353
02:13:04,160 --> 02:13:07,840
Speaker 2: ship role using an Iranian guidance kit. So that's that's

2354
02:13:07,960 --> 02:13:11,160
Speaker 2: that's a potent and it's probably more some ways more

2355
02:13:11,240 --> 02:13:14,600
Speaker 2: advanced than their general cruise missile stockpile arsenal for taking

2356
02:13:14,640 --> 02:13:17,880
Speaker 2: out ships. Now, the Houthis are still a non state force.

2357
02:13:18,000 --> 02:13:21,120
Speaker 2: When people say online that like the us IS is

2358
02:13:21,360 --> 02:13:24,160
Speaker 2: fighting Yemen, not quite accurate, because the Huthis are fighting

2359
02:13:24,240 --> 02:13:26,520
Speaker 2: Yemen too, right, like the government if you're if you're

2360
02:13:26,680 --> 02:13:28,760
Speaker 2: saying government, you're talking about the people. Well, people in

2361
02:13:28,880 --> 02:13:31,800
Speaker 2: Yemen are fighting each other, right, yeah, it's it's that

2362
02:13:32,000 --> 02:13:34,280
Speaker 2: is the situation. They are at war with the government

2363
02:13:34,360 --> 02:13:36,200
Speaker 2: of Yemen, right, that is still right case.

2364
02:13:36,080 --> 02:13:39,160
Speaker 6: We're fighting, we're shooting missiles at Yemen, but yet like

2365
02:13:39,440 --> 02:13:41,640
Speaker 6: as a geographical area, right than in the state.

2366
02:13:42,160 --> 02:13:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the Huthis did not survive years

2367
02:13:45,680 --> 02:13:48,320
Speaker 2: of intense bombing by Saudi Arabia and a nation with

2368
02:13:48,400 --> 02:13:51,320
Speaker 2: an on paper extremely modern military by making a lot

2369
02:13:51,360 --> 02:13:54,080
Speaker 2: of stupid mistakes. So when they decided to attack shipping

2370
02:13:54,120 --> 02:13:56,880
Speaker 2: in the Red Sea after Israel launched their genocidal campaign

2371
02:13:56,880 --> 02:13:59,920
Speaker 2: against Gaza, they did so with a competent plan, which

2372
02:14:00,120 --> 02:14:02,560
Speaker 2: was to make civilian freight travel in the area too

2373
02:14:02,720 --> 02:14:06,320
Speaker 2: dangerous to continue. Their stated goal here is to force

2374
02:14:06,480 --> 02:14:09,280
Speaker 2: damage on Israel and the Western nations who support it

2375
02:14:09,480 --> 02:14:12,280
Speaker 2: by hitting the only thing they care about, commerce, and

2376
02:14:12,520 --> 02:14:15,520
Speaker 2: their actions here have done real damage to international trade,

2377
02:14:16,080 --> 02:14:20,760
Speaker 2: not exclusively Western international trade. I should note the latest

2378
02:14:20,880 --> 02:14:23,560
Speaker 2: several months have seen them capture or sink a couple

2379
02:14:23,600 --> 02:14:26,920
Speaker 2: of merchant vessels. They've sunk one. They've hit at least

2380
02:14:26,960 --> 02:14:30,560
Speaker 2: sixteen vessels with drones and missiles. I found a Bloomberg

2381
02:14:30,640 --> 02:14:33,400
Speaker 2: report with the telling title houthy missiles do far more

2382
02:14:33,480 --> 02:14:36,200
Speaker 2: damage to trade than to actual ships, which is an

2383
02:14:36,200 --> 02:14:39,640
Speaker 2: interesting way to frame it. Yeah, and they're kind of

2384
02:14:39,680 --> 02:14:42,839
Speaker 2: trying to minimize what's going on here. While sixteen strikes

2385
02:14:42,960 --> 02:14:45,000
Speaker 2: is a large number for the industry to withstand, there

2386
02:14:45,040 --> 02:14:47,440
Speaker 2: have been even more failed attempts. Since the Hoothies began

2387
02:14:47,520 --> 02:14:49,560
Speaker 2: their attacks, there have been more than sixty incidents of

2388
02:14:49,600 --> 02:14:52,240
Speaker 2: some kind in and around the waterway, including everything from

2389
02:14:52,280 --> 02:14:55,120
Speaker 2: near misses to hijackings and harassment by armed militants and

2390
02:14:55,200 --> 02:14:57,480
Speaker 2: small boats. If you look at the damage that's occurred

2391
02:14:57,480 --> 02:14:59,720
Speaker 2: in most of these incidents, it has not been significant,

2392
02:15:00,200 --> 02:15:02,760
Speaker 2: said Marcus Baker, head of the Marine and cargo at Marsh,

2393
02:15:03,000 --> 02:15:05,480
Speaker 2: one of the world's top insurance brokers. So far, we

2394
02:15:05,560 --> 02:15:07,840
Speaker 2: haven't seen a total loss caused by a missile strike.

2395
02:15:08,360 --> 02:15:11,320
Speaker 2: That changed in March when the Houthi successfully sank the

2396
02:15:11,400 --> 02:15:14,080
Speaker 2: Ruby Mar despite more than a month of US strikes

2397
02:15:14,120 --> 02:15:17,400
Speaker 2: to degrade their capability. The vessel was initially wounded and

2398
02:15:17,480 --> 02:15:21,440
Speaker 2: drifted unmanned for almost two weeks before sinking. While it listed,

2399
02:15:21,560 --> 02:15:24,400
Speaker 2: A Hoothy representative promised the ship could be salvaged if

2400
02:15:24,440 --> 02:15:27,480
Speaker 2: aid trucks were allowed to enter Gaza. Ruby Mar wound

2401
02:15:27,560 --> 02:15:28,240
Speaker 2: up sinking.

2402
02:15:28,560 --> 02:15:28,720
Speaker 3: Now.

2403
02:15:28,840 --> 02:15:31,280
Speaker 2: Hoothi strikes have also hit at least one ship bound

2404
02:15:31,360 --> 02:15:34,240
Speaker 2: for Iran and another that was going to be delivering

2405
02:15:34,240 --> 02:15:37,840
Speaker 2: aid supplies to Yemen. At least three civilian sailors have

2406
02:15:37,920 --> 02:15:39,880
Speaker 2: been killed thus far, and a strike on a bulk

2407
02:15:39,920 --> 02:15:43,640
Speaker 2: carrier named the True Confidence. Now, how you kind of

2408
02:15:43,800 --> 02:15:46,360
Speaker 2: interpret this as a success by the Houthy stated goals,

2409
02:15:46,400 --> 02:15:49,680
Speaker 2: which is right, to inflict enough pain on the West

2410
02:15:49,800 --> 02:15:55,040
Speaker 2: and on Israel economically that it forces an earlier end

2411
02:15:55,280 --> 02:15:57,560
Speaker 2: to what Israel is doing in Gaza, Right, if that's

2412
02:15:57,600 --> 02:16:00,880
Speaker 2: their goal, Well, it hasn't happened yet, right, That's one

2413
02:16:00,920 --> 02:16:03,800
Speaker 2: thing we can say right, it has not yet. There's

2414
02:16:03,880 --> 02:16:06,000
Speaker 2: no evidence that I have seen that it has affected

2415
02:16:06,080 --> 02:16:08,640
Speaker 2: the tempo of Israeli operations substantially.

2416
02:16:08,800 --> 02:16:12,160
Speaker 6: You know, yeah, it would seem it does not so different,

2417
02:16:12,520 --> 02:16:15,680
Speaker 6: and obviously as an incentive for the United States and

2418
02:16:15,800 --> 02:16:20,879
Speaker 6: other international actors to like not let this tactics succeed,

2419
02:16:21,320 --> 02:16:24,320
Speaker 6: because you do not want a world in which I

2420
02:16:24,440 --> 02:16:26,440
Speaker 6: think it's not unreasonably. There's a thing called the right

2421
02:16:26,520 --> 02:16:28,680
Speaker 6: to protect an international law, which is probably what the

2422
02:16:28,760 --> 02:16:31,080
Speaker 6: heaths are claiming they have of the acting under it,

2423
02:16:31,440 --> 02:16:34,439
Speaker 6: and that's not, like, on the face of it, unreasonable,

2424
02:16:35,120 --> 02:16:37,080
Speaker 6: But yet I think the US has this very like

2425
02:16:37,160 --> 02:16:39,440
Speaker 6: strong incentive to not let it become a thing that

2426
02:16:39,560 --> 02:16:40,160
Speaker 6: keeps happening.

2427
02:16:40,280 --> 02:16:43,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm not surprised we sent a carrier group

2428
02:16:43,959 --> 02:16:45,879
Speaker 2: into the area. I'm also not surprised that that does

2429
02:16:45,920 --> 02:16:47,800
Speaker 2: not seem to be working either. Right, If you are

2430
02:16:47,920 --> 02:16:50,880
Speaker 2: judging how the US is acting and how the Houthis

2431
02:16:50,879 --> 02:16:53,000
Speaker 2: are acting based on their stated goals, the Houthis have

2432
02:16:53,120 --> 02:16:56,240
Speaker 2: not yet accomplished their stated goal with these strikes, and

2433
02:16:56,520 --> 02:16:58,920
Speaker 2: the US air strikes do not seem to have stopped

2434
02:16:58,920 --> 02:17:01,600
Speaker 2: the Houthis from being a to interdict naval traffic in

2435
02:17:01,680 --> 02:17:05,360
Speaker 2: the Red Sea. Right, there's I've heard some argument that

2436
02:17:05,480 --> 02:17:08,040
Speaker 2: the tempo is reduced since the US got there, But

2437
02:17:08,080 --> 02:17:09,720
Speaker 2: it's also one clear to me is like, well, they

2438
02:17:09,800 --> 02:17:11,680
Speaker 2: only have a limited amount of these missiles, right. Has

2439
02:17:11,720 --> 02:17:15,920
Speaker 2: the TiO changed because they need to marshal their ammunition effectively,

2440
02:17:16,120 --> 02:17:18,640
Speaker 2: or has it changed because there's been damage done to

2441
02:17:18,720 --> 02:17:21,520
Speaker 2: their infrastructure. I don't know that we'll ever really get

2442
02:17:21,800 --> 02:17:23,880
Speaker 2: a perfect answer on that, right, I know the US

2443
02:17:24,000 --> 02:17:25,960
Speaker 2: claims that it has. You know, we claim that our

2444
02:17:25,959 --> 02:17:28,920
Speaker 2: strikes have weakened them, but we always claim that, right,

2445
02:17:29,320 --> 02:17:29,560
Speaker 2: you know.

2446
02:17:29,840 --> 02:17:34,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean yeah, we're gonna say, right, yeah, we

2447
02:17:34,080 --> 02:17:35,679
Speaker 6: all lived through Afghanistan.

2448
02:17:35,879 --> 02:17:38,960
Speaker 2: Right, you're aware of what the US says about shit

2449
02:17:39,200 --> 02:17:39,360
Speaker 2: like this.

2450
02:17:40,000 --> 02:17:41,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it would look pretty bad if we

2451
02:17:41,600 --> 02:17:44,760
Speaker 6: were like, now, dude, we just heated billions of ammunitions.

2452
02:17:47,560 --> 02:17:52,040
Speaker 2: Maxavel for US. It's unclear how much damaged the Hoothies

2453
02:17:52,080 --> 02:17:54,279
Speaker 2: have actually done to the global economy. As a consequence

2454
02:17:54,320 --> 02:17:56,400
Speaker 2: of all this, traffic has dropped to the Red Sea

2455
02:17:56,480 --> 02:17:59,199
Speaker 2: by about thirty five percent, and since the sea carries

2456
02:17:59,200 --> 02:18:02,360
Speaker 2: about twenty percent of global trade, that's a major hit.

2457
02:18:02,760 --> 02:18:05,600
Speaker 2: But it hasn't stopped trade through the Red Sea either. Again,

2458
02:18:05,760 --> 02:18:09,240
Speaker 2: most trade is still you knows, most of the pre

2459
02:18:09,360 --> 02:18:11,760
Speaker 2: war level is still occurring. Thirty five percent is a

2460
02:18:11,840 --> 02:18:14,720
Speaker 2: substantial drop. That is a hit, and it's hurt a

2461
02:18:14,800 --> 02:18:15,480
Speaker 2: lot of people.

2462
02:18:15,680 --> 02:18:15,800
Speaker 4: Right.

2463
02:18:16,240 --> 02:18:18,320
Speaker 2: It also has not wholly blocked like there's a longer

2464
02:18:18,400 --> 02:18:20,520
Speaker 2: route you can take around Africa to get into the

2465
02:18:20,560 --> 02:18:23,200
Speaker 2: Red Sea, but that makes everything more expensive too. The

2466
02:18:23,320 --> 02:18:26,600
Speaker 2: country hurt most is actually Egypt, because Egypt depends on

2467
02:18:26,640 --> 02:18:29,240
Speaker 2: the Suez Canal for about a quarter of its currency earnings,

2468
02:18:29,600 --> 02:18:31,520
Speaker 2: and you go through the Red Sea to get to

2469
02:18:31,560 --> 02:18:34,360
Speaker 2: the Suez Canal. For reasons that are obvious if you

2470
02:18:34,400 --> 02:18:47,480
Speaker 2: look at a map. Right, people who rightly see what's

2471
02:18:47,480 --> 02:18:50,080
Speaker 2: happening in Gaza as a crime against humanity are unlikely

2472
02:18:50,160 --> 02:18:52,880
Speaker 2: to care too much about the Egyptian economy, nor should

2473
02:18:52,920 --> 02:18:56,000
Speaker 2: they necessarily. But the bigger questions here are can the

2474
02:18:56,080 --> 02:18:58,600
Speaker 2: hoo He's actually force an into what Israel's doing? And

2475
02:18:58,760 --> 02:19:01,040
Speaker 2: how long can they keep this up? The answer to

2476
02:19:01,080 --> 02:19:03,240
Speaker 2: the first question, can the Houthi's force it into his

2477
02:19:03,480 --> 02:19:06,440
Speaker 2: reely aggression is not yet. And the answer to the

2478
02:19:06,600 --> 02:19:08,880
Speaker 2: second question is how long can they keep this up?

2479
02:19:09,240 --> 02:19:11,800
Speaker 2: I don't know, they might be able to eventually bring

2480
02:19:11,879 --> 02:19:15,320
Speaker 2: about international pressure through economic damage, but given the state

2481
02:19:15,400 --> 02:19:17,800
Speaker 2: of the US presidential election, I don't see that as

2482
02:19:17,920 --> 02:19:21,640
Speaker 2: particularly likely a method for changing net and Yahu's behavior.

2483
02:19:22,240 --> 02:19:25,520
Speaker 2: The answer to the second question is, you know, you know,

2484
02:19:25,600 --> 02:19:28,200
Speaker 2: how long can they keep this up? Probably forever? Right,

2485
02:19:28,840 --> 02:19:31,959
Speaker 2: US strikes have been lauded by the US as damaging infrastructure,

2486
02:19:31,959 --> 02:19:34,240
Speaker 2: but we don't know that that's true. Our air strikes

2487
02:19:34,240 --> 02:19:36,080
Speaker 2: in the region have been launched by the USS. D

2488
02:19:36,080 --> 02:19:38,680
Speaker 2: White D. Eisenhower, the head of the carrier strike Group

2489
02:19:38,760 --> 02:19:40,920
Speaker 2: in the Red Sea at present. And again, when you

2490
02:19:40,959 --> 02:19:43,600
Speaker 2: look at kind of like leftists analyzing this, because they

2491
02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:46,200
Speaker 2: don't often know much about the military, you'll get a

2492
02:19:46,280 --> 02:19:48,120
Speaker 2: mix of like people being like, ah, the houthis are

2493
02:19:48,120 --> 02:19:49,680
Speaker 2: going to kill a carrier because they put out a

2494
02:19:49,760 --> 02:19:51,720
Speaker 2: video of like a carrier in their sites and shit,

2495
02:19:51,800 --> 02:19:54,440
Speaker 2: and like, I don't think so, guys, doesn't seem likely.

2496
02:19:55,200 --> 02:19:58,560
Speaker 2: These are very well defended ships, and they are very

2497
02:19:58,720 --> 02:20:01,160
Speaker 2: competently led. Look I have looked into the capital of

2498
02:20:01,240 --> 02:20:04,080
Speaker 2: the ship, I've looked into how they have handled the

2499
02:20:04,360 --> 02:20:07,280
Speaker 2: considerable tempo of tax against them. I think that these

2500
02:20:07,320 --> 02:20:10,840
Speaker 2: guys are operationally competent as the US tends to be. Now,

2501
02:20:10,920 --> 02:20:13,760
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean they're going to win. The US US

2502
02:20:13,879 --> 02:20:17,959
Speaker 2: soldiers tend to be operationally competent most of the time,

2503
02:20:18,320 --> 02:20:21,880
Speaker 2: and we also lose a lot, right because operational competence

2504
02:20:22,120 --> 02:20:25,800
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if the operations you're being asked to undertake

2505
02:20:25,959 --> 02:20:28,360
Speaker 2: have no chance of victory. And that is more or

2506
02:20:28,440 --> 02:20:30,880
Speaker 2: less the situation. I think that these sailors are in

2507
02:20:31,160 --> 02:20:34,640
Speaker 2: right where they're pretty good at sailing around in an

2508
02:20:34,640 --> 02:20:37,600
Speaker 2: aircraft carrier and not getting killed. But that doesn't mean

2509
02:20:37,640 --> 02:20:39,920
Speaker 2: they're going to defeat the Houthies in a meaningful way

2510
02:20:40,080 --> 02:20:42,840
Speaker 2: right right, And the Hoothies are aware of this. They're

2511
02:20:42,840 --> 02:20:45,960
Speaker 2: in a holding pattern. They understand that the primary thing

2512
02:20:46,280 --> 02:20:51,320
Speaker 2: that is that all of strategy really hinges around stopping

2513
02:20:51,440 --> 02:20:55,039
Speaker 2: and denying terrain to the enemy. And all the Hoothies

2514
02:20:55,080 --> 02:20:57,200
Speaker 2: have to do to deny a significant amount of terrain

2515
02:20:57,360 --> 02:21:01,280
Speaker 2: to the entire west is keep lobbing missiles, often blindly,

2516
02:21:01,720 --> 02:21:04,520
Speaker 2: in this sea and it will make everything more expensive

2517
02:21:04,600 --> 02:21:07,640
Speaker 2: for everybody, keep them in the news, and that's a win.

2518
02:21:07,840 --> 02:21:12,440
Speaker 2: And it's unlikely, if not basically impossible, that using current methods,

2519
02:21:13,080 --> 02:21:17,680
Speaker 2: the US Navy and US you know, airpower in this area,

2520
02:21:17,840 --> 02:21:19,400
Speaker 2: based in this carrier group is going to be able

2521
02:21:19,440 --> 02:21:21,240
Speaker 2: to do anything but spend a shitload of money.

2522
02:21:21,760 --> 02:21:21,880
Speaker 4: Now.

2523
02:21:22,000 --> 02:21:24,640
Speaker 2: US Navy officers in recent weeks have reported attacks by

2524
02:21:24,640 --> 02:21:29,039
Speaker 2: both anti ship missiles, regular cruise missiles swarms of unmanned

2525
02:21:29,080 --> 02:21:31,959
Speaker 2: aerial drones, which has led to a general conclusion among

2526
02:21:32,040 --> 02:21:34,960
Speaker 2: people who analyze this stuff that drone swarms are going

2527
02:21:35,000 --> 02:21:38,160
Speaker 2: to be a significant part of naval warfare in the

2528
02:21:38,720 --> 02:21:43,120
Speaker 2: immediate future. Right, you can overwhelm you know, the houthis

2529
02:21:43,640 --> 02:21:46,000
Speaker 2: you know. As impressive as their drone swarms are, for

2530
02:21:46,120 --> 02:21:48,840
Speaker 2: a nonstate actor cannot put together the kind of a

2531
02:21:48,879 --> 02:21:51,640
Speaker 2: swarm that a state actor like China, for example, could.

2532
02:21:52,080 --> 02:21:54,960
Speaker 2: But people are looking at how close some hits have

2533
02:21:55,080 --> 02:21:57,320
Speaker 2: gotten to the carriers and being like, well, shit, if

2534
02:21:57,360 --> 02:21:59,200
Speaker 2: you add a lot more of these things, you could

2535
02:21:59,280 --> 02:22:01,600
Speaker 2: really cost some fucking problems for these boats.

2536
02:22:01,760 --> 02:22:01,920
Speaker 1: Right.

2537
02:22:02,360 --> 02:22:06,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. They have also used unmanned boats and unmanned underwater vessels.

2538
02:22:06,160 --> 02:22:09,440
Speaker 2: These are basically unmanned drone boats with explosives in them, right,

2539
02:22:09,520 --> 02:22:12,959
Speaker 2: and again, significantly more of these could potentially do some damage.

2540
02:22:13,280 --> 02:22:16,400
Speaker 2: This is, by any account, the most direct combat US

2541
02:22:16,520 --> 02:22:19,000
Speaker 2: naval forces have seen since World War Two. And one

2542
02:22:19,040 --> 02:22:20,960
Speaker 2: thing I fun thing I've learned reading articles about the

2543
02:22:21,040 --> 02:22:23,400
Speaker 2: operation is that our jets now get kill markers for

2544
02:22:23,520 --> 02:22:24,400
Speaker 2: the bombs they drop.

2545
02:22:24,480 --> 02:22:24,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2546
02:22:24,920 --> 02:22:28,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, you can be a drone ace or not a drone,

2547
02:22:29,000 --> 02:22:30,400
Speaker 6: a missile downing ace.

2548
02:22:30,680 --> 02:22:30,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2549
02:22:30,959 --> 02:22:33,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, I don't know, may I guess it

2550
02:22:33,240 --> 02:22:36,120
Speaker 2: makes sense whatever, it just it doesn't look as impressive.

2551
02:22:36,760 --> 02:22:40,160
Speaker 6: I did some googling. I guess you could become an

2552
02:22:40,160 --> 02:22:42,560
Speaker 6: ace shooting down barrage balloons in World War One.

2553
02:22:42,680 --> 02:22:44,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, the gag shooting back.

2554
02:22:44,920 --> 02:22:47,560
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, they were very defense strongly defended. Yeah, it's

2555
02:22:47,560 --> 02:22:49,800
Speaker 6: a little different of V two rockets, I guess in

2556
02:22:49,879 --> 02:22:51,960
Speaker 6: World War Two. I did also find out that the

2557
02:22:52,120 --> 02:22:56,280
Speaker 6: navel some of the unmanned underwater vehicles are replacing. More's

2558
02:22:56,360 --> 02:22:59,480
Speaker 6: the pity the seals and dolphins that were previously in

2559
02:22:59,600 --> 02:23:00,560
Speaker 6: USNAV service.

2560
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:04,280
Speaker 2: I don't mean seals like no, no, no, literal yeah,

2561
02:23:04,320 --> 02:23:09,160
Speaker 2: like literal seals heartbreaking, yeah, very In San Diego, I

2562
02:23:09,560 --> 02:23:10,480
Speaker 2: often go past them.

2563
02:23:11,920 --> 02:23:13,480
Speaker 6: You know what the seals don't want to do or

2564
02:23:13,760 --> 02:23:17,000
Speaker 6: they well again added the marine mammals. The other seals

2565
02:23:17,160 --> 02:23:17,440
Speaker 6: very much.

2566
02:23:17,480 --> 02:23:20,960
Speaker 2: The dolphins might I remember from the documentary SeaQuest that

2567
02:23:21,040 --> 02:23:22,800
Speaker 2: they that they enjoy naval service.

2568
02:23:24,360 --> 02:23:27,280
Speaker 6: I think all SeaQuest, James, I've not I've not watched

2569
02:23:27,320 --> 02:23:28,840
Speaker 6: Sea Quest. I'm afraid. I'm afraid.

2570
02:23:28,879 --> 02:23:31,640
Speaker 2: It's It's Star Trek, the next generation Underwater, but the

2571
02:23:31,760 --> 02:23:34,320
Speaker 2: role of Picard is played by the sheriff from Jaws.

2572
02:23:34,680 --> 02:23:37,920
Speaker 6: It's actually fantastic. Great. Yeah, I'm looking looking forward to

2573
02:23:37,959 --> 02:23:42,520
Speaker 6: being exposed to more of this universe. I'm hoping that

2574
02:23:42,680 --> 02:23:45,400
Speaker 6: the the Dolphins join force with the Orcas and take

2575
02:23:45,480 --> 02:23:48,320
Speaker 6: on the super rich with that using the skills given

2576
02:23:48,360 --> 02:23:49,840
Speaker 6: to them by the US military.

2577
02:23:49,920 --> 02:23:53,920
Speaker 2: In Challah, James. So, when it comes to the economics

2578
02:23:54,040 --> 02:23:55,920
Speaker 2: of this conflict, and a lot of this does come

2579
02:23:56,000 --> 02:23:59,240
Speaker 2: down economics, right, what the Houthy are doing is an

2580
02:23:59,320 --> 02:24:04,480
Speaker 2: incredibly efficient, good ass deal for them. These drones, specifically,

2581
02:24:04,560 --> 02:24:06,760
Speaker 2: a lot of what they've done. They fired missiles, but

2582
02:24:06,959 --> 02:24:09,000
Speaker 2: like those are expensive, they don't have a lot of them.

2583
02:24:09,080 --> 02:24:11,160
Speaker 2: I think that at this point they would prefer to

2584
02:24:11,320 --> 02:24:14,480
Speaker 2: use those on ships that cannot defend against them. They

2585
02:24:14,520 --> 02:24:17,000
Speaker 2: have since some manned boats, which the US has fucking

2586
02:24:17,120 --> 02:24:19,680
Speaker 2: mrked immediately, and they don't seem to be doing that

2587
02:24:19,800 --> 02:24:22,280
Speaker 2: anymore because it's dumb and the Hoothies didn't get where

2588
02:24:22,280 --> 02:24:24,760
Speaker 2: they did by repeatedly doing dumb shit. What they seem

2589
02:24:24,760 --> 02:24:27,960
Speaker 2: to have settled on is sending out drone swarms. Both

2590
02:24:27,959 --> 02:24:30,920
Speaker 2: of these boats, these underwater drones and of aerial drones,

2591
02:24:31,280 --> 02:24:33,600
Speaker 2: and these things can cost just a few thousand dollars each.

2592
02:24:33,640 --> 02:24:35,040
Speaker 2: Some of the biggest ones are probably more like tens

2593
02:24:35,080 --> 02:24:37,560
Speaker 2: of thousands of dollars. But the navy missiles that we

2594
02:24:37,720 --> 02:24:39,840
Speaker 2: use to interdict this shit and some of these, they

2595
02:24:39,920 --> 02:24:42,320
Speaker 2: also have some dumber cruise missiles that are pretty cheap.

2596
02:24:42,800 --> 02:24:45,000
Speaker 2: The missiles we use to interdict this shit are two

2597
02:24:45,040 --> 02:24:46,520
Speaker 2: point one million dollars is shot.

2598
02:24:46,760 --> 02:24:46,920
Speaker 4: Right.

2599
02:24:47,280 --> 02:24:49,440
Speaker 2: This is all in an adition to the insane cost

2600
02:24:49,520 --> 02:24:52,240
Speaker 2: of keeping a carrier battlegroup in the field and fighting.

2601
02:24:52,400 --> 02:24:55,400
Speaker 2: It's not at all cheap. I found one political article

2602
02:24:55,440 --> 02:24:58,480
Speaker 2: that quotes a DoD official admitting the cost offset is

2603
02:24:58,600 --> 02:25:02,160
Speaker 2: not on our side. Now we have some cheaper systems

2604
02:25:02,200 --> 02:25:05,360
Speaker 2: that can work really well on particularly drones. They can

2605
02:25:05,480 --> 02:25:08,080
Speaker 2: work on missiles too. We've used them and that these

2606
02:25:08,080 --> 02:25:12,199
Speaker 2: are air burst shells fired from the conventional guns on destroyers.

2607
02:25:12,720 --> 02:25:15,520
Speaker 2: These have worked really well, especially against drones and tests,

2608
02:25:15,600 --> 02:25:18,080
Speaker 2: but they're only effective from about ten miles or less away.

2609
02:25:18,480 --> 02:25:21,920
Speaker 2: In ballistic missile terms, that's extremely close. You don't want

2610
02:25:21,959 --> 02:25:25,160
Speaker 2: to rely on these for as and it's not even

2611
02:25:25,200 --> 02:25:28,160
Speaker 2: all that far away in drone terms right As a result,

2612
02:25:28,320 --> 02:25:31,240
Speaker 2: the US has expanded research into more efficient anti drone

2613
02:25:31,280 --> 02:25:34,160
Speaker 2: and anti missile weapons, including what amounts to laser, laser

2614
02:25:34,240 --> 02:25:36,960
Speaker 2: and microwave weapons that could be fired indefinitely for the

2615
02:25:37,000 --> 02:25:40,080
Speaker 2: cost of electricity. Given the nature of these weapons, that's

2616
02:25:40,120 --> 02:25:43,000
Speaker 2: not insignificant either, but it's a lot less than two

2617
02:25:43,040 --> 02:25:45,520
Speaker 2: point one million is shot. As is always the case,

2618
02:25:45,560 --> 02:25:47,480
Speaker 2: the kind of fight the Huthies are waging right now

2619
02:25:47,720 --> 02:25:50,720
Speaker 2: has an expiration eight right now. Any group that can

2620
02:25:50,800 --> 02:25:53,920
Speaker 2: put together a few million dollars to make hundreds and

2621
02:25:54,040 --> 02:25:56,760
Speaker 2: hundreds of explosive drones right which a number of groups

2622
02:25:56,760 --> 02:26:00,840
Speaker 2: are capable of, could at least exact a substantial toll

2623
02:26:01,320 --> 02:26:04,519
Speaker 2: on a US carrier battlegroup, make it, spend a shitload

2624
02:26:04,560 --> 02:26:08,200
Speaker 2: of money, potentially even do some damage. And again, even

2625
02:26:08,240 --> 02:26:10,640
Speaker 2: if this stuff hits an aircraft carrier, you're like very

2626
02:26:10,720 --> 02:26:13,560
Speaker 2: unlikely to see that thing sink. There's a story that's

2627
02:26:13,560 --> 02:26:16,160
Speaker 2: worth knowing that, Like when we decommissioned one of our

2628
02:26:16,200 --> 02:26:19,240
Speaker 2: aircraft carriers fifteen or twenty years ago. They started. They

2629
02:26:19,320 --> 02:26:21,600
Speaker 2: shot at a bunch like they just to see like

2630
02:26:22,000 --> 02:26:24,240
Speaker 2: how well it would hold up, and like they such

2631
02:26:24,280 --> 02:26:27,800
Speaker 2: a great sink and they couldn't sink the fucker. Like,

2632
02:26:28,760 --> 02:26:30,640
Speaker 2: you can do that, you could kill sailors. It would

2633
02:26:30,680 --> 02:26:32,279
Speaker 2: be a big deal if they hit a fucking aircraft

2634
02:26:32,280 --> 02:26:34,280
Speaker 2: carrier and killed some sailors, even if the carrier doesn't

2635
02:26:34,280 --> 02:26:36,320
Speaker 2: go down, that's a huge fucking deal. I don't know

2636
02:26:36,360 --> 02:26:38,440
Speaker 2: that they're capable of doing that, but it's unlikely they're

2637
02:26:38,480 --> 02:26:39,760
Speaker 2: going to kill one, right.

2638
02:26:40,360 --> 02:26:42,480
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, they got to send one to the bonomiation.

2639
02:26:42,720 --> 02:26:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, hard, It's hard to do, right. They're made not

2640
02:26:45,680 --> 02:26:48,440
Speaker 2: to sink, and they're pretty fucking big. But one can

2641
02:26:48,520 --> 02:26:51,080
Speaker 2: imagine kind of a future in which the war the

2642
02:26:51,120 --> 02:26:53,800
Speaker 2: Hoothies are waging right now is rendered kind of impossible

2643
02:26:53,879 --> 02:26:56,800
Speaker 2: because weapons like that are positioned permanently around say the

2644
02:26:56,920 --> 02:26:59,879
Speaker 2: Red Sea, blanketing into defense grid that basically kill any

2645
02:27:00,080 --> 02:27:03,199
Speaker 2: thing fired into the sea. That's something that might happen

2646
02:27:03,240 --> 02:27:06,520
Speaker 2: in the future if this continues. But that's also just

2647
02:27:06,640 --> 02:27:08,920
Speaker 2: the way war works, right. You know, the Hoothies ten

2648
02:27:08,959 --> 02:27:11,480
Speaker 2: to fifteen years ago wouldn't have been able to wage

2649
02:27:11,560 --> 02:27:13,680
Speaker 2: a war like this against the US Navy. They fought

2650
02:27:13,720 --> 02:27:15,480
Speaker 2: the Navy to a stand still. That's the only way

2651
02:27:15,520 --> 02:27:18,040
Speaker 2: to analyze this, right, and again, that doesn't mean either

2652
02:27:18,040 --> 02:27:20,560
Speaker 2: side is achieving their operational goals. Right, The Houthis have

2653
02:27:20,680 --> 02:27:23,480
Speaker 2: not ended the genocide in Gaza, and the US doesn't

2654
02:27:23,520 --> 02:27:25,840
Speaker 2: seem to be capable of ending the Houthis. So they

2655
02:27:25,879 --> 02:27:28,080
Speaker 2: fought each other to a stand still in this matter.

2656
02:27:28,160 --> 02:27:30,680
Speaker 2: And that wouldn't have been possible twenty years ago. So right,

2657
02:27:31,080 --> 02:27:33,720
Speaker 2: twenty years from now, what's going on will be different.

2658
02:27:33,879 --> 02:27:36,240
Speaker 2: You know, the fact that the US seems to be

2659
02:27:36,360 --> 02:27:39,000
Speaker 2: pretty close to developing more efficient anti drone and anti

2660
02:27:39,040 --> 02:27:41,600
Speaker 2: missile weapons that are a lot cheaper to use doesn't

2661
02:27:41,640 --> 02:27:44,480
Speaker 2: mean that non state actors will not find a way

2662
02:27:44,520 --> 02:27:46,760
Speaker 2: around those. But that is the situation we're in right

2663
02:27:46,879 --> 02:27:49,680
Speaker 2: now with the Houthis, and that is the end of

2664
02:27:49,760 --> 02:27:52,000
Speaker 2: this episode. We're going to get back to you tomorrow

2665
02:27:52,320 --> 02:27:54,760
Speaker 2: for part two, where're going to talk about irregular naval

2666
02:27:54,800 --> 02:27:58,360
Speaker 2: warfare in Ukraine and Myanmar. James, you got anything else

2667
02:27:58,400 --> 02:28:01,000
Speaker 2: to say, No, I didn't think. So you need to

2668
02:28:01,080 --> 02:28:02,680
Speaker 2: be a bad day to be a boat. I guess

2669
02:28:03,480 --> 02:28:05,440
Speaker 2: bad day to be a boat, bad day to be

2670
02:28:05,520 --> 02:28:08,080
Speaker 2: a drone. They're really suffering in this.

2671
02:28:08,200 --> 02:28:11,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a great day to be a military contractor,

2672
02:28:11,720 --> 02:28:14,120
Speaker 6: which is oh my god, such a good time to

2673
02:28:14,160 --> 02:28:15,520
Speaker 6: be a military contractor.

2674
02:28:15,920 --> 02:28:18,440
Speaker 2: Whether you're doing it for a run or the United States.

2675
02:28:18,560 --> 02:28:21,600
Speaker 2: You are, you are, you are in Clover right.

2676
02:28:21,600 --> 02:28:24,840
Speaker 6: Now, which is a massive change from the entirety of

2677
02:28:24,920 --> 02:28:25,840
Speaker 6: this century so far.

2678
02:28:25,920 --> 02:28:26,640
Speaker 4: So that's nice.

2679
02:28:27,160 --> 02:28:30,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice to see the military contractors finally pick

2680
02:28:30,120 --> 02:28:30,480
Speaker 2: up a win.

2681
02:28:30,920 --> 02:28:32,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, one for them.

2682
02:28:32,959 --> 02:28:35,600
Speaker 2: That's been It could Happen Here. We'll be back tomorrow.

2683
02:28:48,959 --> 02:28:52,520
Speaker 2: Welcome back to It Could Happen Here and our special

2684
02:28:52,720 --> 02:28:57,600
Speaker 2: two part series Irregular Naval Warfare and You, where James

2685
02:28:57,680 --> 02:29:00,880
Speaker 2: and I teach you how you too can challenge the

2686
02:29:01,080 --> 02:29:04,280
Speaker 2: US Navy's dominance of the seas or at least the

2687
02:29:04,440 --> 02:29:08,960
Speaker 2: coasts for fun and profit. Actually today, last episode we

2688
02:29:09,080 --> 02:29:12,480
Speaker 2: talked about people challenging the US Navy's coastal dominance. Today

2689
02:29:12,520 --> 02:29:15,800
Speaker 2: we're talking about doing the same thing for the Russian Navy.

2690
02:29:16,120 --> 02:29:18,200
Speaker 2: So that's going to be fun. And of course the

2691
02:29:18,320 --> 02:29:20,760
Speaker 2: Navy of mianmar which is a bit of a different

2692
02:29:20,800 --> 02:29:23,960
Speaker 2: class from the US and Russian Navy, but no less interesting.

2693
02:29:25,000 --> 02:29:27,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, still fun. I'd love to see a boat lose.

2694
02:29:27,520 --> 02:29:27,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2695
02:29:27,720 --> 02:29:29,640
Speaker 2: Well, I just like boats going down, you know, I

2696
02:29:29,720 --> 02:29:32,480
Speaker 2: just hate a boat. Yeah yeah, us the jocas many

2697
02:29:33,320 --> 02:29:36,480
Speaker 2: many such cases. Yeah, I'm going to start with Ukraine,

2698
02:29:36,560 --> 02:29:38,240
Speaker 2: and then we're going to throw to James to talk

2699
02:29:38,280 --> 02:29:41,560
Speaker 2: about our friends in Myanmar and how they have repurposed

2700
02:29:41,600 --> 02:29:46,920
Speaker 2: civilian technology and stolen weapons to counter a navy without

2701
02:29:47,000 --> 02:29:50,840
Speaker 2: really having one of their own. But first Ukraine. In

2702
02:29:50,879 --> 02:29:53,800
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, when the Russian Army invaded eastern Ukraine and

2703
02:29:53,840 --> 02:29:57,240
Speaker 2: took Crimea, Ukraine lost a significant portion of it's already

2704
02:29:57,400 --> 02:30:00,720
Speaker 2: not that impressive navy. Most of their boats were just

2705
02:30:00,920 --> 02:30:04,000
Speaker 2: taken by Russia, along with a number of sailors who defected.

2706
02:30:04,360 --> 02:30:06,880
Speaker 2: A lot of other sailors fled the region, leaving behind

2707
02:30:06,920 --> 02:30:09,760
Speaker 2: their homes and cities like Sebastopol to continue serving their

2708
02:30:09,760 --> 02:30:13,160
Speaker 2: country in a war that a decade later is still ongoing.

2709
02:30:13,800 --> 02:30:16,160
Speaker 2: One of these sailors, who is a Sebastopol native and

2710
02:30:16,280 --> 02:30:19,160
Speaker 2: had to flee his home, possibly forever, in order to

2711
02:30:19,280 --> 02:30:23,080
Speaker 2: continue serving his country, is the current commander of Ukraine's navy,

2712
02:30:23,440 --> 02:30:27,280
Speaker 2: Admiral Nazpapa. He leads a navy that is almost without

2713
02:30:27,400 --> 02:30:30,600
Speaker 2: manned ships, and on paper, it is utterly incapable of

2714
02:30:30,760 --> 02:30:34,200
Speaker 2: challenging Russia's legendary Black Sea Fleet. Since the age of

2715
02:30:34,240 --> 02:30:36,680
Speaker 2: the Czars, the Black Sea Fleet has been infamous as

2716
02:30:36,720 --> 02:30:40,600
Speaker 2: a pillar of Russian military power. However, also since the

2717
02:30:41,120 --> 02:30:43,440
Speaker 2: age of the Tsars, it's had a nasty tendency to

2718
02:30:43,480 --> 02:30:46,080
Speaker 2: get utterly housed by enemies that should have been able

2719
02:30:46,160 --> 02:30:46,600
Speaker 2: to beat it.

2720
02:30:46,720 --> 02:30:50,360
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, not the first time it's taken

2721
02:30:50,360 --> 02:30:51,480
Speaker 6: an unexpected loot.

2722
02:30:51,720 --> 02:30:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it has a legendary history. That doesn't mean good.

2723
02:30:54,640 --> 02:30:57,160
Speaker 2: There's bad legends out there, you know.

2724
02:30:58,520 --> 02:30:59,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's well known.

2725
02:31:00,080 --> 02:31:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, today that enemy is Ukraine. Since the expanded Russian

2726
02:31:03,760 --> 02:31:07,360
Speaker 2: invasion in twenty twenty two, just two years, Ukraine has

2727
02:31:07,440 --> 02:31:10,480
Speaker 2: destroyed or badly damaged more than a third of the

2728
02:31:10,560 --> 02:31:14,080
Speaker 2: Black Sea Fleet. Despite having no battleships or destroyers in

2729
02:31:14,120 --> 02:31:16,840
Speaker 2: the sea to counter Russian naval power. They have done

2730
02:31:16,959 --> 02:31:20,440
Speaker 2: enough damage to reopen Odessa and at least one other

2731
02:31:20,600 --> 02:31:23,280
Speaker 2: port on the Black Sea to international commerce, which has

2732
02:31:23,320 --> 02:31:26,640
Speaker 2: provided Ukraine with a crucial economic and strategic lifeline. And

2733
02:31:26,800 --> 02:31:29,360
Speaker 2: that's a remarkable achievement. Sinking a third of the Black

2734
02:31:29,400 --> 02:31:32,600
Speaker 2: Sea Fleet and basically when you reopen a port. That

2735
02:31:32,680 --> 02:31:35,400
Speaker 2: means that you have taken away naval dominance from a

2736
02:31:35,440 --> 02:31:39,760
Speaker 2: country that has a navy and you don't. That's pretty good,

2737
02:31:39,920 --> 02:31:44,720
Speaker 2: pretty good stuff. Over the last two years, Ukraine had damaged,

2738
02:31:44,760 --> 02:31:48,200
Speaker 2: irreparably or sunk seven active landing ships and one to

2739
02:31:48,800 --> 02:31:52,040
Speaker 2: seven active landing ships and one landing vessel. I don't

2740
02:31:52,040 --> 02:31:54,440
Speaker 2: know the difference. They've They've fucked up a lot of boats.

2741
02:31:54,520 --> 02:31:58,199
Speaker 2: They have destroyed a submarine with seed to ground capability

2742
02:31:58,240 --> 02:32:00,800
Speaker 2: that was docked for repairs. They have sunk a cruiser,

2743
02:32:00,879 --> 02:32:03,560
Speaker 2: the capital ship of the entire Black Sea fleet, the Moskva.

2744
02:32:04,040 --> 02:32:06,400
Speaker 2: They've also sunk a supply vessel and a handful of

2745
02:32:06,440 --> 02:32:08,920
Speaker 2: patrol boats and missile boats, and a number of other

2746
02:32:09,000 --> 02:32:12,160
Speaker 2: boats have been damaged. That's a significant rate of casualties,

2747
02:32:12,560 --> 02:32:15,600
Speaker 2: especially when you consider that every actually destroyed vessel we're

2748
02:32:15,640 --> 02:32:19,280
Speaker 2: looking at a year's multiple years lead time to replace.

2749
02:32:19,720 --> 02:32:24,320
Speaker 2: You cannot make naval vessels very quickly anymore. Back during

2750
02:32:24,560 --> 02:32:28,520
Speaker 2: the big Dub Dub dose, the US did, but nobody

2751
02:32:28,560 --> 02:32:32,039
Speaker 2: really does that anymore, not with the big ones.

2752
02:32:32,080 --> 02:32:34,040
Speaker 6: At least just roll through that.

2753
02:32:34,400 --> 02:32:37,600
Speaker 7: We were just we were just yeating aircraft carriers into

2754
02:32:37,680 --> 02:32:41,520
Speaker 7: the sea, just just flotting them out, Yeah, don't take

2755
02:32:41,560 --> 02:32:45,199
Speaker 7: them out a week. Yeah, because it's because Rosy Rivet

2756
02:32:45,480 --> 02:32:47,320
Speaker 7: was was really riveting at a high speed.

2757
02:32:47,520 --> 02:32:49,840
Speaker 2: She was, she was, she was quite a riveter. So

2758
02:32:49,959 --> 02:32:53,120
Speaker 2: at the start of hostilities, Turkey, which controls access to

2759
02:32:53,200 --> 02:32:56,920
Speaker 2: the Black Sea forbade any additional military vessels or at

2760
02:32:56,959 --> 02:32:59,640
Speaker 2: least military vessels of significant size, from entering the area.

2761
02:33:00,200 --> 02:33:02,840
Speaker 2: What this means this has a significant impact on how

2762
02:33:02,959 --> 02:33:06,400
Speaker 2: well Ukraine strikes work, because even if Russia can replace

2763
02:33:06,440 --> 02:33:09,520
Speaker 2: the losses physically, they can't actually get replacements into the

2764
02:33:09,560 --> 02:33:12,720
Speaker 2: Black Sea easily. They can't sail new shit past the Turks.

2765
02:33:12,959 --> 02:33:15,720
Speaker 2: The Turks are not allowing that right now. So again,

2766
02:33:15,920 --> 02:33:18,360
Speaker 2: this is a situation that has kind of favored the

2767
02:33:18,440 --> 02:33:22,800
Speaker 2: way in which Ukraine has adapted to countering Russian naval dominance.

2768
02:33:23,120 --> 02:33:25,360
Speaker 2: It is possible that at the present rate of attrition,

2769
02:33:25,560 --> 02:33:28,240
Speaker 2: the Black Sea fleet could be rendered inoperable in less

2770
02:33:28,360 --> 02:33:30,560
Speaker 2: than two years. Like if they keep going at this

2771
02:33:30,640 --> 02:33:32,920
Speaker 2: rates like eighteen months or something before, there's not really

2772
02:33:33,000 --> 02:33:36,240
Speaker 2: much of a fleet anymore. Now. If Ukraine had accomplished

2773
02:33:36,280 --> 02:33:39,879
Speaker 2: this task with a traditional navy using standard naval tactics,

2774
02:33:40,200 --> 02:33:42,880
Speaker 2: This would have been an impressive victory given the disparity

2775
02:33:42,920 --> 02:33:45,280
Speaker 2: in resources between the two nations. But they have done

2776
02:33:45,320 --> 02:33:47,240
Speaker 2: all this with a mix of cruise missiles, many of

2777
02:33:47,280 --> 02:33:50,760
Speaker 2: which are produced in country, aerial drones, and new bespoke

2778
02:33:50,879 --> 02:33:55,480
Speaker 2: locally produced suicide drone boats. This irregular naval warfare has

2779
02:33:55,480 --> 02:33:58,520
Speaker 2: been successful enough that one Rand Corporation engineer and analyst,

2780
02:33:58,600 --> 02:34:01,640
Speaker 2: Scott Savatz, described the BLA blaxiafleet as a fleet in

2781
02:34:01,840 --> 02:34:05,200
Speaker 2: being quote, it represents a potential threat that needs to

2782
02:34:05,200 --> 02:34:07,960
Speaker 2: be vigilantly guarded against, but one that remains in check

2783
02:34:08,040 --> 02:34:10,160
Speaker 2: for now. And I'm going to quote from a New

2784
02:34:10,240 --> 02:34:12,880
Speaker 2: York Times article on the topic. It brought a little

2785
02:34:12,920 --> 02:34:16,720
Speaker 2: more context. Ukraine has effectively turned around ten thousand square

2786
02:34:16,760 --> 02:34:19,000
Speaker 2: miles in the western Black Sea off its southern coast

2787
02:34:19,040 --> 02:34:21,800
Speaker 2: into what the military calls a gray zone, where neither

2788
02:34:21,920 --> 02:34:24,920
Speaker 2: side can sail without the threat of attack. James Heapey,

2789
02:34:25,000 --> 02:34:28,120
Speaker 2: Britain's Armed Forces Minister, told a recent security conference in

2790
02:34:28,200 --> 02:34:31,360
Speaker 2: Warsaw that Russia's Black Sea fleet had suffered a functional defeat,

2791
02:34:31,640 --> 02:34:34,280
Speaker 2: and contended that the liberation of Ukraine's coastal waters in

2792
02:34:34,320 --> 02:34:36,520
Speaker 2: the Black Sea was every bit as important as the

2793
02:34:36,560 --> 02:34:40,000
Speaker 2: successful counter offensives on land and Cersona and Kharkiv last year.

2794
02:34:40,640 --> 02:34:43,720
Speaker 2: The classical approach that we studied at military maritime academies

2795
02:34:43,760 --> 02:34:46,720
Speaker 2: does not work now, Admiral Nese Papas said. Therefore, we

2796
02:34:46,800 --> 02:34:49,120
Speaker 2: have to be as flexible as possible and change approaches

2797
02:34:49,160 --> 02:34:51,920
Speaker 2: to planning and implementing work as much as possible. That

2798
02:34:52,200 --> 02:34:53,440
Speaker 2: articles about a year old or so.

2799
02:34:54,120 --> 02:34:54,160
Speaker 4: So.

2800
02:34:54,480 --> 02:34:57,359
Speaker 2: The Neptune anti ship missile is one of the prides

2801
02:34:57,400 --> 02:35:01,600
Speaker 2: of Ukraine's nason arms industry. Missiles are credited with destroying

2802
02:35:01,600 --> 02:35:04,680
Speaker 2: the Moskva in April of twenty twenty two. Ukraine also

2803
02:35:04,760 --> 02:35:07,800
Speaker 2: has access to several Western anti ship missiles, including these

2804
02:35:07,840 --> 02:35:10,520
Speaker 2: storm Shadow and Scalp missiles. I believe the storm Shadow

2805
02:35:10,560 --> 02:35:13,800
Speaker 2: comes from your your folks, right James, yeah, convention.

2806
02:35:13,720 --> 02:35:14,360
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah.

2807
02:35:15,200 --> 02:35:17,320
Speaker 2: And these seem to be pretty effective missiles. These obviously

2808
02:35:17,480 --> 02:35:20,840
Speaker 2: much more advanced. And these are modern naval weapons, right.

2809
02:35:20,920 --> 02:35:23,200
Speaker 2: These are much more advanced than, for example, the weapons

2810
02:35:23,240 --> 02:35:24,879
Speaker 2: to who these have. These are the kind of things

2811
02:35:24,920 --> 02:35:28,880
Speaker 2: that can counter to some extent modern anti missile technology.

2812
02:35:29,480 --> 02:35:31,440
Speaker 2: For an example of kind of how that tends to work,

2813
02:35:31,480 --> 02:35:33,800
Speaker 2: they used a barrage of I believe it was mostly

2814
02:35:33,879 --> 02:35:37,879
Speaker 2: storm shadows to rain death on the crime import of Sebastopol. Recently,

2815
02:35:38,640 --> 02:35:41,080
Speaker 2: seven out of eighteen of the missiles fired made it

2816
02:35:41,160 --> 02:35:44,440
Speaker 2: through Russian air defenses, and these damaged or destroyed four

2817
02:35:44,600 --> 02:35:47,040
Speaker 2: landing ships in a single strike. And these are sizeable

2818
02:35:47,120 --> 02:35:50,080
Speaker 2: naval vessels. This is the most recent attack, although as

2819
02:35:50,240 --> 02:35:52,440
Speaker 2: after I wrote this, there was another attack on the

2820
02:35:52,560 --> 02:35:55,320
Speaker 2: Kirch Bridge. I'm not really sure how that took place

2821
02:35:55,600 --> 02:35:57,760
Speaker 2: yet that seems to have shut it down again. But

2822
02:35:57,879 --> 02:35:59,560
Speaker 2: that gives you an idea of like what you actually

2823
02:35:59,600 --> 02:36:01,080
Speaker 2: have to do. How much of these missiles you have

2824
02:36:01,160 --> 02:36:02,600
Speaker 2: to put in the air to get some through. And

2825
02:36:02,680 --> 02:36:05,240
Speaker 2: that's not too bad, right, eighteen missiles, seven get through,

2826
02:36:05,320 --> 02:36:09,080
Speaker 2: four ships down. That's a really good rate of return.

2827
02:36:09,360 --> 02:36:11,840
Speaker 6: Especially when you consider that, like you know, we were

2828
02:36:11,879 --> 02:36:13,920
Speaker 6: talking in our first episode about how the US is

2829
02:36:13,959 --> 02:36:18,760
Speaker 6: spending significant resources are maintaining its defending its carriers, right,

2830
02:36:19,560 --> 02:36:22,360
Speaker 6: Russia does not have the same ability to keep good

2831
02:36:22,520 --> 02:36:27,240
Speaker 6: Lord saying munitions no, and so like that's a finite resource, right,

2832
02:36:27,240 --> 02:36:29,960
Speaker 6: they're their means of defining that, defending their ships and

2833
02:36:30,080 --> 02:36:33,720
Speaker 6: defending really anything against missiles are a finite resource. So

2834
02:36:34,320 --> 02:36:38,199
Speaker 6: any time you can even if the ship doesn't get sunk,

2835
02:36:38,280 --> 02:36:40,359
Speaker 6: if the ship has to deploy one of these missiles,

2836
02:36:40,400 --> 02:36:43,000
Speaker 6: which it doesn't, which the whole country doesn't have very

2837
02:36:43,040 --> 02:36:44,160
Speaker 6: many of, that they're still a win.

2838
02:36:44,680 --> 02:36:47,840
Speaker 2: Now, this is we're talking about irregular naval warfare. And

2839
02:36:47,920 --> 02:36:50,240
Speaker 2: then this is not This is not what most people

2840
02:36:50,240 --> 02:36:53,880
Speaker 2: would have considered a traditional naval conflict prior to the

2841
02:36:54,200 --> 02:36:57,360
Speaker 2: expansion of hostilities in Ukraine. However, we are talking This

2842
02:36:57,480 --> 02:36:59,279
Speaker 2: is very different than the case of the Hoothies. Ukraine

2843
02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:01,720
Speaker 2: is a state. It doesn't have a massive arms industry,

2844
02:37:01,760 --> 02:37:03,600
Speaker 2: but it has one, and it has the support of

2845
02:37:03,720 --> 02:37:06,320
Speaker 2: nations with sizable arms industries. Right, so we are not

2846
02:37:06,480 --> 02:37:09,120
Speaker 2: talking about this part. We are going to talk about

2847
02:37:09,280 --> 02:37:11,880
Speaker 2: the aspects of Ukrainian a regular naval warfare. That are

2848
02:37:12,040 --> 02:37:15,200
Speaker 2: some guys that are hobbyists building shit. Yeah, this is

2849
02:37:15,320 --> 02:37:18,400
Speaker 2: not that part yet. But I think this information is

2850
02:37:18,520 --> 02:37:20,760
Speaker 2: kind of significant and that it shows the tactical use

2851
02:37:20,800 --> 02:37:23,720
Speaker 2: of anti ship cruise missiles and their ability to significantly

2852
02:37:23,800 --> 02:37:27,040
Speaker 2: shape an operational environment even when the country using them

2853
02:37:27,240 --> 02:37:30,120
Speaker 2: has minimal conventional naval assets of their own. It is

2854
02:37:30,280 --> 02:37:32,480
Speaker 2: largely through the use of these missiles that Ukraine has

2855
02:37:32,520 --> 02:37:35,680
Speaker 2: been able to reopen their black Sea ports. That matters

2856
02:37:35,760 --> 02:37:38,280
Speaker 2: to people seeking to understand both this conflict and the

2857
02:37:38,400 --> 02:37:40,880
Speaker 2: future of unconventional naval warfare. I mean, I guess you

2858
02:37:40,920 --> 02:37:43,520
Speaker 2: could say this is the future of conventional naval warfare,

2859
02:37:43,560 --> 02:37:46,440
Speaker 2: but I think we're still leaning on the unconventional side

2860
02:37:46,480 --> 02:37:48,680
Speaker 2: at the moment, at least in terms of how doctrine

2861
02:37:48,760 --> 02:37:50,800
Speaker 2: is changing as a result of this. So maybe I

2862
02:37:50,840 --> 02:37:54,560
Speaker 2: should update how we're defining this. But for our purposes

2863
02:37:54,640 --> 02:37:57,000
Speaker 2: as people unlikely to have access to cruise missiles but

2864
02:37:57,120 --> 02:38:00,760
Speaker 2: significantly likely to find ourselves waging an unconventional than having

2865
02:38:00,840 --> 02:38:03,400
Speaker 2: cruise missiles, it's more relevant to look at the new

2866
02:38:03,440 --> 02:38:06,119
Speaker 2: weapons systems Ukraine has developed that have helped them lock

2867
02:38:06,160 --> 02:38:09,560
Speaker 2: down the Black Sea fleet using civilian hobbyists. And this

2868
02:38:09,720 --> 02:38:14,320
Speaker 2: is where we get to drones. Ukraine's conventional aerial drones

2869
02:38:14,360 --> 02:38:17,040
Speaker 2: are a mix of actual military hardware. I'm talking about

2870
02:38:17,080 --> 02:38:20,800
Speaker 2: stuff like the Bairaktar, the Turkish drone, which is like

2871
02:38:21,080 --> 02:38:23,080
Speaker 2: kind of like the Predator A right, it's like an

2872
02:38:23,160 --> 02:38:26,560
Speaker 2: actual military product. But the majority in terms of numbers

2873
02:38:26,640 --> 02:38:29,600
Speaker 2: of drones that Ukraine is fielding are civilian drones, or

2874
02:38:29,600 --> 02:38:32,920
Speaker 2: at least drones that started out a civilian technology. A

2875
02:38:32,959 --> 02:38:35,240
Speaker 2: lot of these are now built to be military, but

2876
02:38:35,280 --> 02:38:37,959
Speaker 2: they're still based on these designs that started with people

2877
02:38:38,040 --> 02:38:42,040
Speaker 2: hacking and cobbling together civilian drones and outside of naval stuff.

2878
02:38:42,240 --> 02:38:44,240
Speaker 2: Prior to the war, there had been a lot of

2879
02:38:44,360 --> 02:38:47,160
Speaker 2: veterans and hobbyists who were veterans trying to convince the

2880
02:38:47,240 --> 02:38:50,480
Speaker 2: Ukrainian military that it needed to adopt drone warfare on

2881
02:38:50,520 --> 02:38:52,520
Speaker 2: a large scale, the kind of drone warfare that you

2882
02:38:52,600 --> 02:38:55,880
Speaker 2: can do with these these less expensive drones, and they

2883
02:38:56,040 --> 02:38:58,280
Speaker 2: received a lot of pushback until the war started and

2884
02:38:58,360 --> 02:39:01,119
Speaker 2: these guys just took to the fields, started fucking murking

2885
02:39:01,200 --> 02:39:05,199
Speaker 2: Russian armed units and infantry and killing generals and shit.

2886
02:39:05,680 --> 02:39:08,320
Speaker 2: And now Ukraine has integrated in a way that everyone

2887
02:39:08,480 --> 02:39:11,480
Speaker 2: is going to follow. Like Ukrainian like battalions have like

2888
02:39:11,640 --> 02:39:15,160
Speaker 2: companies now that are drone assault companies, and like line battalions, and.

2889
02:39:15,560 --> 02:39:19,440
Speaker 6: Within infantry you have people used artillery eating transit forwards.

2890
02:39:20,040 --> 02:39:22,480
Speaker 2: Yes, all over. They have set a goal for this

2891
02:39:22,600 --> 02:39:24,840
Speaker 2: year producing at least a million and ideally more like

2892
02:39:24,920 --> 02:39:27,280
Speaker 2: two million drones, and at least from what I read,

2893
02:39:27,320 --> 02:39:29,400
Speaker 2: that looks like very plausible and most of these are

2894
02:39:29,480 --> 02:39:32,279
Speaker 2: quite small, right, but that doesn't mean obviously ineffective.

2895
02:39:32,560 --> 02:39:33,960
Speaker 6: I know they buy a lot of their drones in

2896
02:39:34,000 --> 02:39:37,400
Speaker 6: the UK because the UK has consistently kicked itself in

2897
02:39:37,440 --> 02:39:40,200
Speaker 6: the nuts when it comes to like Brexit, and so

2898
02:39:40,600 --> 02:39:43,000
Speaker 6: the pound is significantly weaker, and so they're able to

2899
02:39:43,000 --> 02:39:44,840
Speaker 6: get the drones at a cheaper price and then drive

2900
02:39:44,920 --> 02:39:45,800
Speaker 6: them all the way across.

2901
02:39:46,520 --> 02:39:46,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2902
02:39:46,760 --> 02:39:48,800
Speaker 6: I know people who have done that. I was going

2903
02:39:48,840 --> 02:39:50,320
Speaker 6: to go join them, but never worked it out.

2904
02:39:50,600 --> 02:39:54,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know there are a number of different

2905
02:39:54,440 --> 02:39:58,080
Speaker 2: like these. These these drones earlier in the war had

2906
02:39:58,120 --> 02:40:01,080
Speaker 2: an easier time being effected, i even causing casualties in

2907
02:40:01,080 --> 02:40:01,560
Speaker 2: the Russians.

2908
02:40:01,600 --> 02:40:01,920
Speaker 1: Then later.

2909
02:40:02,040 --> 02:40:05,240
Speaker 2: This is something that you know, kind of the hooplaw

2910
02:40:05,320 --> 02:40:08,080
Speaker 2: and support which I think is necessary that Ukraine gets.

2911
02:40:08,160 --> 02:40:11,279
Speaker 2: Lead some people to discount the degree to which Russian

2912
02:40:11,320 --> 02:40:14,240
Speaker 2: forces have adapted and gotten smarter. And one of the

2913
02:40:14,240 --> 02:40:16,440
Speaker 2: ways in which they've adapted and gotten smarter is in

2914
02:40:16,640 --> 02:40:19,000
Speaker 2: blocking drones and using drones of their own. You know,

2915
02:40:19,080 --> 02:40:20,760
Speaker 2: one of the stories the last couple of weeks is

2916
02:40:20,800 --> 02:40:24,880
Speaker 2: that Russia has succeeded in carrying out strikes on advanced

2917
02:40:24,920 --> 02:40:29,440
Speaker 2: weapons systems like samsites deep in Ukrainian territory. They've extended

2918
02:40:29,480 --> 02:40:32,000
Speaker 2: their kill chain beyond what they used to be capable of,

2919
02:40:32,080 --> 02:40:35,520
Speaker 2: and that's because they've adapted. They're also adapted with less

2920
02:40:35,600 --> 02:40:39,240
Speaker 2: efficacy at blocking drones and attacks on naval vessels. Some

2921
02:40:39,400 --> 02:40:40,840
Speaker 2: of this has been kind of funny. I want to

2922
02:40:40,879 --> 02:40:44,000
Speaker 2: read a quote from a Business Insider article here. Russia

2923
02:40:44,120 --> 02:40:46,680
Speaker 2: is painting silhouettes on naval vessels on land to try

2924
02:40:46,720 --> 02:40:49,960
Speaker 2: and trick Ukraine, which keeps destroying its warships. In an

2925
02:40:49,959 --> 02:40:52,720
Speaker 2: intelligence update on Wednesday, the UK Ministry of Defense said

2926
02:40:52,760 --> 02:40:55,080
Speaker 2: that silhouettes of vessels have also been painted on the

2927
02:40:55,120 --> 02:40:59,000
Speaker 2: side of ks probably to confuse the uncrude aerial vehicle operators.

2928
02:40:59,400 --> 02:41:02,080
Speaker 2: They showed there's some images of this. They don't seem

2929
02:41:02,240 --> 02:41:05,440
Speaker 2: convincing to me. I don't know if I think this

2930
02:41:05,680 --> 02:41:06,199
Speaker 2: is working.

2931
02:41:06,879 --> 02:41:07,480
Speaker 1: This is great.

2932
02:41:08,560 --> 02:41:11,360
Speaker 2: I love this, like they have a cardboard navy next. Yeah,

2933
02:41:11,440 --> 02:41:14,880
Speaker 2: it's very bugs bunny. Yes, they're not working as well

2934
02:41:14,920 --> 02:41:16,560
Speaker 2: as bugs would like a.

2935
02:41:16,560 --> 02:41:19,279
Speaker 6: Hole in the side of the cliff face and crushing

2936
02:41:19,320 --> 02:41:19,640
Speaker 6: into it.

2937
02:41:20,640 --> 02:41:24,200
Speaker 2: Keeps throwing. It's very funny. I mean obviously they just

2938
02:41:24,360 --> 02:41:27,879
Speaker 2: Ukraine just sank like or damn it badly damaged. Four boats.

2939
02:41:27,920 --> 02:41:30,000
Speaker 2: So I don't think this is I haven't seen evidence

2940
02:41:30,040 --> 02:41:33,000
Speaker 2: that this is working well. Their actual like jamming efforts

2941
02:41:33,040 --> 02:41:36,080
Speaker 2: have been much more successful, right, Yeah, they always will

2942
02:41:36,120 --> 02:41:38,560
Speaker 2: be on civilian One of the thing that's really interesting

2943
02:41:38,680 --> 02:41:41,800
Speaker 2: compared to Meanma is that Ukraine tends to rely on

2944
02:41:42,000 --> 02:41:45,200
Speaker 2: modified off the shelf civilian drones, right your dji is

2945
02:41:45,240 --> 02:41:49,480
Speaker 2: that kind of thing in Mianma because of where a

2946
02:41:49,520 --> 02:41:52,600
Speaker 2: lott of the PDFs are. Because but they increasingly do

2947
02:41:52,720 --> 02:41:56,040
Speaker 2: control the borders, but they haven't always. They have been

2948
02:41:56,120 --> 02:41:58,800
Speaker 2: making their own drones. The group called Federal Wings you

2949
02:41:58,800 --> 02:42:01,280
Speaker 2: can find them on telegram who who make their own drones,

2950
02:42:01,800 --> 02:42:05,640
Speaker 2: and I think those seem to be less the Jammas

2951
02:42:05,720 --> 02:42:11,280
Speaker 2: that the sac that the Tamado has are Chinese made

2952
02:42:11,640 --> 02:42:13,920
Speaker 2: Jamma rifles. You see them all the time in captured

2953
02:42:13,959 --> 02:42:16,280
Speaker 2: weapon cashes, but they don't seem to be having as

2954
02:42:16,360 --> 02:42:21,360
Speaker 2: much impact on these homemade drones, which is really interesting. Yeah. Yeah,

2955
02:42:21,360 --> 02:42:24,280
Speaker 2: and it's you know, I've mentioned a couple of times

2956
02:42:24,640 --> 02:42:27,360
Speaker 2: we're doing this in part because the odds that people

2957
02:42:27,480 --> 02:42:30,840
Speaker 2: listening might be involved in an irregular conflict are not zero.

2958
02:42:31,400 --> 02:42:33,720
Speaker 2: You know what I think about when I say that

2959
02:42:34,080 --> 02:42:36,600
Speaker 2: is not that there's high odds for any individual person

2960
02:42:36,640 --> 02:42:39,560
Speaker 2: fighting themselves in that situation, but there is, given the

2961
02:42:39,640 --> 02:42:42,120
Speaker 2: number of people who listened to this podcast, probably someone

2962
02:42:42,160 --> 02:42:44,600
Speaker 2: who is not currently involved in a conflict that will

2963
02:42:44,680 --> 02:42:47,320
Speaker 2: find themselves that way in the future. And I base

2964
02:42:47,400 --> 02:42:48,680
Speaker 2: that in part on the fact that all of our

2965
02:42:48,720 --> 02:42:51,440
Speaker 2: friends in Myanmar who are currently fighting a war were

2966
02:42:51,480 --> 02:42:54,120
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago delivery drivers and you know,

2967
02:42:54,360 --> 02:42:57,080
Speaker 2: playing pubg online and not really thinking they would wind

2968
02:42:57,200 --> 02:42:58,000
Speaker 2: up as insurgents.

2969
02:42:58,320 --> 02:43:00,000
Speaker 6: Yeah. I've spoken to a number of people who are

2970
02:43:00,120 --> 02:43:03,560
Speaker 6: currently fighting done in Mianma who have listened to our

2971
02:43:03,640 --> 02:43:06,920
Speaker 6: Mianma podcast and realized the capacity of three D printing

2972
02:43:07,040 --> 02:43:10,640
Speaker 6: to be very useful and so like, even in that sense,

2973
02:43:10,800 --> 02:43:12,959
Speaker 6: it's already happening. But yeah, don't know one in Memma.

2974
02:43:14,400 --> 02:43:16,840
Speaker 6: Like many of them said that their entire combat experience

2975
02:43:16,879 --> 02:43:20,160
Speaker 6: is playing pubg. Yeah, now they're murking ships.

2976
02:43:20,360 --> 02:43:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyway, it bears thinking about this stuff. And

2977
02:43:23,080 --> 02:43:26,280
Speaker 2: this brings me back to Ukraine's irregular drone warfare units,

2978
02:43:26,280 --> 02:43:28,200
Speaker 2: which again a lot of these guys started out as

2979
02:43:28,280 --> 02:43:31,960
Speaker 2: civilian enthusiasts who expanded responded to the outbreak or at

2980
02:43:32,000 --> 02:43:35,880
Speaker 2: least expansion of hostilities by expanding their hobby into a

2981
02:43:36,040 --> 02:43:38,680
Speaker 2: real world military effort that had a real world effect.

2982
02:43:38,760 --> 02:43:41,879
Speaker 2: Civilian drones were crucial in the Battle of Kiev, allowing

2983
02:43:41,959 --> 02:43:44,480
Speaker 2: Ukraine to do severe damage to that massive Russian armored

2984
02:43:44,520 --> 02:43:47,200
Speaker 2: column heading towards the city and providing intel that led

2985
02:43:47,200 --> 02:43:50,320
Speaker 2: to the assassination of multiple general level officers. So it

2986
02:43:50,440 --> 02:43:53,240
Speaker 2: is perhaps not surprising that Ukraine looked to the same

2987
02:43:53,320 --> 02:43:55,840
Speaker 2: group of volunteer hobbyists when it came time to expand

2988
02:43:55,840 --> 02:43:58,600
Speaker 2: their naval arsenal. And there's a really good article I

2989
02:43:58,680 --> 02:44:02,240
Speaker 2: found in CNN by some Bashtian Shukla, Alex Marcott and

2990
02:44:02,400 --> 02:44:05,120
Speaker 2: Daria Tarasova. And I actually want to give you the

2991
02:44:05,200 --> 02:44:06,840
Speaker 2: title of this article. Yeah, I'll try to thriller in

2992
02:44:06,879 --> 02:44:10,200
Speaker 2: the show notes is exclusive rare access to Ukraine's sea

2993
02:44:10,280 --> 02:44:12,840
Speaker 2: drones part of Ukraine's fight back in the Black Sea.

2994
02:44:13,000 --> 02:44:15,040
Speaker 2: Haven't really seen the word fight backies that way, but

2995
02:44:15,120 --> 02:44:16,600
Speaker 2: there you go. So I'm going to read a quote

2996
02:44:16,600 --> 02:44:20,800
Speaker 2: from that article. A government linked Ukrainian fundraising organization called

2997
02:44:20,879 --> 02:44:23,680
Speaker 2: United twenty four has sourced money from companies and individuals

2998
02:44:23,720 --> 02:44:25,880
Speaker 2: all around the world, pooling funds to disperse it to

2999
02:44:25,920 --> 02:44:29,040
Speaker 2: a variety of developers and initiatives, from defense to soccer matches.

3000
02:44:29,440 --> 02:44:32,240
Speaker 2: The entire outfit is very security conscious, insisting on strict

3001
02:44:32,280 --> 02:44:35,240
Speaker 2: guidelines on filming and revealing identities. Those who seen and

3002
02:44:35,360 --> 02:44:37,160
Speaker 2: met with declined to give their full names or even

3003
02:44:37,160 --> 02:44:40,440
Speaker 2: their ranks within Ukraine's armed forces. On a creaky wooden jetty,

3004
02:44:40,480 --> 02:44:42,760
Speaker 2: a camouflaged sea drone pilot says he wants to go

3005
02:44:42,920 --> 02:44:45,280
Speaker 2: by shark in front of him is a long, black,

3006
02:44:45,320 --> 02:44:49,120
Speaker 2: hard show briefcase. He unveils a bespoke multi screened mission control,

3007
02:44:49,440 --> 02:44:52,760
Speaker 2: essentially an elaborate gaming center combined, complete with levers, joysticks,

3008
02:44:52,760 --> 02:44:55,080
Speaker 2: a monitor, and buttons that have covers over switches that

3009
02:44:55,160 --> 02:44:59,200
Speaker 2: shouldn't accidentally be knocked. With labels like Blast. The developer

3010
02:44:59,240 --> 02:45:01,160
Speaker 2: of the drone, who act to remain anonymous sid their

3011
02:45:01,200 --> 02:45:03,400
Speaker 2: work on sea drones only began once the war started.

3012
02:45:03,680 --> 02:45:05,680
Speaker 2: It was very important because we did not have many

3013
02:45:05,760 --> 02:45:08,480
Speaker 2: forces to resist the maritime state Russia, and we needed

3014
02:45:08,480 --> 02:45:10,480
Speaker 2: to develop something of our own because we didn't have

3015
02:45:10,640 --> 02:45:15,600
Speaker 2: the existing capabilities. So again, these are hobbyist design I mean,

3016
02:45:15,680 --> 02:45:18,040
Speaker 2: this guy's not really a hobbyist anymore, but that's how

3017
02:45:18,120 --> 02:45:20,920
Speaker 2: he started. He's only not a hobbyist because the military

3018
02:45:21,040 --> 02:45:23,240
Speaker 2: recognized the value of what he was doing. And the

3019
02:45:23,320 --> 02:45:26,200
Speaker 2: current iterations of this sea drone weigh a little over

3020
02:45:26,280 --> 02:45:29,800
Speaker 2: two thousand pounds with an explosive six hundred and sixty

3021
02:45:29,840 --> 02:45:32,720
Speaker 2: one pound payload, a five hundred mile range and a

3022
02:45:32,800 --> 02:45:35,480
Speaker 2: max speed of fifty miles per hour. That is a

3023
02:45:35,560 --> 02:45:39,600
Speaker 2: significant weapons system. Multiple sea drones have been used to

3024
02:45:39,640 --> 02:45:41,920
Speaker 2: strike Russian assets in the Black Sea, and drones were

3025
02:45:41,959 --> 02:45:45,240
Speaker 2: involved in a successful attack that severely damaged the Kirch

3026
02:45:45,360 --> 02:45:49,440
Speaker 2: Bridge last July, rendering it impassable since until September. So

3027
02:45:49,560 --> 02:45:51,840
Speaker 2: these have had a real battlefield effect and they probably

3028
02:45:51,879 --> 02:45:54,760
Speaker 2: will continue to do so. The developer of these drones

3029
02:45:54,760 --> 02:45:57,720
Speaker 2: told CNN these drones are a completely Ukrainian production. They

3030
02:45:57,760 --> 02:46:00,279
Speaker 2: are designed, drawn and tested here. It's our own production

3031
02:46:00,320 --> 02:46:02,960
Speaker 2: of holes, electronics and software. More than fifty percent of

3032
02:46:03,040 --> 02:46:05,959
Speaker 2: the production of equipment is here in Ukraine. And that's

3033
02:46:06,000 --> 02:46:09,320
Speaker 2: really significant because you know, I think we're all aware

3034
02:46:09,360 --> 02:46:12,800
Speaker 2: of the difficulty Ukraine has had getting weaponry lately from

3035
02:46:12,840 --> 02:46:15,560
Speaker 2: the West as a result of fucking around in Congress,

3036
02:46:15,959 --> 02:46:18,480
Speaker 2: and so it is a necessity for them to be

3037
02:46:18,520 --> 02:46:21,720
Speaker 2: able to develop weapon systems like this that can interdict

3038
02:46:21,760 --> 02:46:24,520
Speaker 2: and counteract more advanced and expensive weapon systems and can

3039
02:46:24,720 --> 02:46:27,560
Speaker 2: be produced indigenously. You know, I don't think we have

3040
02:46:27,680 --> 02:46:31,960
Speaker 2: seen a mass suicide boat attack. I'm interested in what

3041
02:46:32,080 --> 02:46:35,600
Speaker 2: happens when we do, like with more significant numbers than

3042
02:46:35,640 --> 02:46:39,200
Speaker 2: we've seen deployed. I kind of wonder the degree to

3043
02:46:39,200 --> 02:46:41,160
Speaker 2: which the Russians have gotten good at spotting this stuff.

3044
02:46:41,200 --> 02:46:43,040
Speaker 2: I've come across at least a couple of stories of

3045
02:46:43,080 --> 02:46:45,960
Speaker 2: these boats likely destroyed on approach. So they certainly don't

3046
02:46:46,000 --> 02:46:48,480
Speaker 2: always work even a majority of the time. But given

3047
02:46:48,520 --> 02:46:50,080
Speaker 2: the cost of these things they don't have to get

3048
02:46:50,120 --> 02:46:52,560
Speaker 2: through the majority of the time, very much worth it.

3049
02:46:52,760 --> 02:46:56,280
Speaker 2: Right now, In you Know that interview with the New

3050
02:46:56,360 --> 02:46:59,879
Speaker 2: York Times, Admiral Najpapa caution that a Ukraine is still

3051
02:47:00,200 --> 02:47:02,960
Speaker 2: outgunned in the Black Sea. Even though the Russians no

3052
02:47:03,080 --> 02:47:07,039
Speaker 2: longer have supremacy, they still have air superiority. They are

3053
02:47:07,120 --> 02:47:09,640
Speaker 2: still able to launch from the sea long range missiles

3054
02:47:09,680 --> 02:47:14,360
Speaker 2: at Ukrainian targets, including civilian targets, So this is not

3055
02:47:14,520 --> 02:47:17,240
Speaker 2: again a situation that should be portrayed as them having

3056
02:47:17,320 --> 02:47:20,080
Speaker 2: their own way. Their ability to kind of interdict the

3057
02:47:20,120 --> 02:47:22,560
Speaker 2: sea has been the primary effects of it have been

3058
02:47:22,680 --> 02:47:25,200
Speaker 2: number one, the reopening of trade in the Black Sea

3059
02:47:25,280 --> 02:47:28,440
Speaker 2: and earlier in the war, by locking down the ability

3060
02:47:28,480 --> 02:47:30,800
Speaker 2: of these landing ships to put more troops on ground,

3061
02:47:30,840 --> 02:47:33,160
Speaker 2: and by doing damage to the Kurch Bridge, they were

3062
02:47:33,200 --> 02:47:37,000
Speaker 2: able to slow Russian reinforcements in Russian materiel from entering

3063
02:47:37,520 --> 02:47:40,240
Speaker 2: the war zone in order to this aided in some

3064
02:47:40,360 --> 02:47:44,280
Speaker 2: of the advances, particularly in areas like Carson. At this moment,

3065
02:47:44,360 --> 02:47:47,680
Speaker 2: the situation has changed because again, the Russians aren't just

3066
02:47:47,800 --> 02:47:50,520
Speaker 2: kind of like sitting around doing the same thing over again,

3067
02:47:50,600 --> 02:47:53,200
Speaker 2: or at least not always, and we don't tend to

3068
02:47:53,240 --> 02:47:55,640
Speaker 2: talk as much about successes on the Russian side of things,

3069
02:47:55,680 --> 02:47:57,760
Speaker 2: but that is an important part of the story. And

3070
02:47:57,920 --> 02:47:59,600
Speaker 2: one of the things the Russians have done is kind

3071
02:47:59,600 --> 02:48:02,360
Speaker 2: of igledge that the Black Sea Fleet may not be

3072
02:48:02,640 --> 02:48:06,640
Speaker 2: a fleet in being forever and certainly cannot be relied

3073
02:48:06,720 --> 02:48:09,600
Speaker 2: upon to handle everything they initially thought it would handle.

3074
02:48:10,000 --> 02:48:12,600
Speaker 2: And so Russian engineers spent a significant period of time

3075
02:48:12,680 --> 02:48:16,240
Speaker 2: building a sizable new railroad that connects Rostov and southern

3076
02:48:16,280 --> 02:48:20,119
Speaker 2: Russia to Mariopol and occupied southern Ukraine. This has allowed

3077
02:48:20,160 --> 02:48:23,240
Speaker 2: them to get high volume shipments into the area and

3078
02:48:23,400 --> 02:48:28,440
Speaker 2: supply troops to the area along Ukraine's southern front without

3079
02:48:28,520 --> 02:48:31,560
Speaker 2: relying on that bridge or relying on naval landings.

3080
02:48:31,640 --> 02:48:31,760
Speaker 5: Right.

3081
02:48:32,640 --> 02:48:34,680
Speaker 2: So the fact that Ukraine has been able to take

3082
02:48:34,720 --> 02:48:37,440
Speaker 2: out for landing ships recently is good. That's a win

3083
02:48:37,600 --> 02:48:40,680
Speaker 2: for Ukraine. It reduces Russian capability, but it is not

3084
02:48:40,840 --> 02:48:42,560
Speaker 2: half the same effect that it would have had, for example,

3085
02:48:42,640 --> 02:48:46,680
Speaker 2: two years earlier. Right, Yeah, because Russia has also evolved,

3086
02:48:46,800 --> 02:48:49,640
Speaker 2: and among other things, railroads are a lot easier or

3087
02:48:49,640 --> 02:48:52,640
Speaker 2: a lot harder to destroy to take out. Right, It's

3088
02:48:52,640 --> 02:48:54,720
Speaker 2: easy to damage a railroad, but they're easy to fix.

3089
02:48:54,800 --> 02:48:57,200
Speaker 2: It doesn't take a lot to get some guys over

3090
02:48:57,280 --> 02:48:59,920
Speaker 2: to fix a damage sunk of railroad. Fixing a bridge

3091
02:49:00,000 --> 02:49:02,120
Speaker 2: that's been blown up or a sunk boat is a

3092
02:49:02,200 --> 02:49:02,720
Speaker 2: lot harder.

3093
02:49:03,160 --> 02:49:06,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and there are people within Russia

3094
02:49:06,040 --> 02:49:09,240
Speaker 6: even who are sabotaging railroads, but as you say, it's

3095
02:49:09,320 --> 02:49:11,840
Speaker 6: like it's very high stakes for them, and it's relatively

3096
02:49:11,959 --> 02:49:14,840
Speaker 6: low cost for the Russian state to fix that stuff,

3097
02:49:15,080 --> 02:49:17,359
Speaker 6: so like it's not as effective.

3098
02:49:17,879 --> 02:49:19,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think this gives you an idea of

3099
02:49:19,800 --> 02:49:22,119
Speaker 2: kind of like what we're looking at when we look

3100
02:49:22,160 --> 02:49:26,200
Speaker 2: at this kind of ongoing irregular conflict is the side

3101
02:49:26,320 --> 02:49:29,200
Speaker 2: that does not have access to a functional navy, not

3102
02:49:29,360 --> 02:49:32,560
Speaker 2: able to interdict or destroy fleets, but able to stop

3103
02:49:32,640 --> 02:49:34,840
Speaker 2: them from dominating the coast. And when you can stop

3104
02:49:34,879 --> 02:49:37,600
Speaker 2: them from dominating the coast, you have effectively denied them

3105
02:49:38,160 --> 02:49:41,600
Speaker 2: terrain that they can act in without being countered, and

3106
02:49:41,879 --> 02:49:44,680
Speaker 2: you have also denied them from stopping you from acting

3107
02:49:44,720 --> 02:49:46,880
Speaker 2: in that same terrain, even if you don't have total

3108
02:49:46,920 --> 02:49:52,000
Speaker 2: safety in that area. That opens up the operational possibilities substantially.

3109
02:49:52,240 --> 02:49:55,520
Speaker 2: And this is something that I kind of don't think

3110
02:49:55,640 --> 02:49:57,480
Speaker 2: is going to get put back in the bag. Even

3111
02:49:57,520 --> 02:50:00,480
Speaker 2: if some of these Star Wars ass weapons systems do

3112
02:50:00,640 --> 02:50:03,039
Speaker 2: come out in the near future. You know, maybe that'll

3113
02:50:03,760 --> 02:50:06,320
Speaker 2: have an impact in the immediate term on people like

3114
02:50:06,400 --> 02:50:08,840
Speaker 2: the houthies, but I don't think that it really will

3115
02:50:09,440 --> 02:50:13,640
Speaker 2: on you know, for example, what Ukraine's doing right Yes, yeah.

3116
02:50:13,840 --> 02:50:18,080
Speaker 6: Russia can't keep up with getting decent small arms, body armor, grenades,

3117
02:50:18,160 --> 02:50:20,680
Speaker 6: and ships. There's no way it's going to implement some

3118
02:50:20,840 --> 02:50:23,800
Speaker 6: kind of massive Star Wars system over its navy, not

3119
02:50:23,879 --> 02:50:25,680
Speaker 6: right now, not in the middle of a conflict that's

3120
02:50:25,840 --> 02:50:28,199
Speaker 6: it's struggling to supply yep.

3121
02:50:28,680 --> 02:50:30,160
Speaker 2: You know what, here's an ad break.

3122
02:50:41,000 --> 02:50:44,320
Speaker 6: All right, we're back and we are traveling around the world.

3123
02:50:44,480 --> 02:50:47,600
Speaker 6: Spend your little globe in your head and look for Meanma,

3124
02:50:47,879 --> 02:50:51,920
Speaker 6: which is of course in Asia. Now I'm talking about

3125
02:50:51,959 --> 02:50:56,600
Speaker 6: two different I guess anti ship sabotage or attack or

3126
02:50:57,000 --> 02:50:59,080
Speaker 6: two different ways ships have been sunk in the Amba.

3127
02:50:59,320 --> 02:51:02,160
Speaker 6: I'll start with the first one, which is undoubtedly the flashiest,

3128
02:51:02,920 --> 02:51:07,400
Speaker 6: just because it's fun. So a ship in the port

3129
02:51:07,560 --> 02:51:10,040
Speaker 6: of Yangon about about a month ago, so we're recording

3130
02:51:10,080 --> 02:51:13,120
Speaker 6: on a twenty. It's about the first of March. It

3131
02:51:13,240 --> 02:51:15,480
Speaker 6: was in the river, in the river in Yangon, right,

3132
02:51:15,520 --> 02:51:18,760
Speaker 6: and it was carrying allegedly carrying jet fuel. Now, if

3133
02:51:18,840 --> 02:51:23,440
Speaker 6: you follow Burmese activists, people in the Burmese Freedom movement,

3134
02:51:23,800 --> 02:51:25,959
Speaker 6: they will one of their demands for a long time

3135
02:51:26,080 --> 02:51:29,280
Speaker 6: has been to stop supplying the Hunter with jet fuel,

3136
02:51:29,320 --> 02:51:35,000
Speaker 6: which would in turn stop it being able to bomb villages, schools, civilians,

3137
02:51:35,360 --> 02:51:38,920
Speaker 6: PDF formations, just about anyone in the country. It's bombed

3138
02:51:38,959 --> 02:51:41,520
Speaker 6: at some point in the last couple of years. And

3139
02:51:41,959 --> 02:51:43,960
Speaker 6: they haven't been exactly right. They haven't been able to

3140
02:51:44,000 --> 02:51:47,040
Speaker 6: stop the supply of jet fuel coming to the Hunter.

3141
02:51:47,520 --> 02:51:49,320
Speaker 6: So they've taken it into their own hands. And what

3142
02:51:49,400 --> 02:51:52,120
Speaker 6: they did on the first of March was that they

3143
02:51:52,800 --> 02:51:56,880
Speaker 6: snuck onto a boat. So two, this is the story

3144
02:51:56,959 --> 02:52:02,080
Speaker 6: from the Burmese National Unity Governments Ministry Defense. Anyway, combat

3145
02:52:02,160 --> 02:52:06,800
Speaker 6: divers snuck onto this boat planted a kilogram of TNT

3146
02:52:07,000 --> 02:52:09,560
Speaker 6: or a charge equivalent to a kilogram of TNT. Robert

3147
02:52:09,560 --> 02:52:12,160
Speaker 6: and I've both spoken to people who make explosives in mema,

3148
02:52:12,240 --> 02:52:14,400
Speaker 6: so we do. We definitely know the PDF has access

3149
02:52:14,400 --> 02:52:17,000
Speaker 6: to a range of explosives. They set it on a

3150
02:52:17,080 --> 02:52:19,600
Speaker 6: five hour fuse and it blew up in the middle

3151
02:52:19,600 --> 02:52:22,480
Speaker 6: of the night, and there's definitely footage of the ship

3152
02:52:22,560 --> 02:52:26,480
Speaker 6: on fire having blown up. Now, this is pretty remarkable

3153
02:52:26,520 --> 02:52:29,520
Speaker 6: for never real Like this is like why the United

3154
02:52:29,560 --> 02:52:32,280
Speaker 6: States has units like the Navy Seals, right, like the

3155
02:52:32,720 --> 02:52:38,600
Speaker 6: higher speed guys, because it is not easy to scuba

3156
02:52:38,680 --> 02:52:41,920
Speaker 6: dive across a harbor, climb onto a ship, send an

3157
02:52:41,959 --> 02:52:45,040
Speaker 6: explosive charge without being detected, and then leave that ship

3158
02:52:45,120 --> 02:52:47,200
Speaker 6: and have the charge go off and sink the ship

3159
02:52:47,280 --> 02:52:52,160
Speaker 6: without you being compromised, without the charge itself being like compromised,

3160
02:52:52,200 --> 02:52:55,000
Speaker 6: and the ship being saved. Right, this is some like

3161
02:52:55,200 --> 02:52:58,400
Speaker 6: this is some classic like this is why they are

3162
02:52:58,520 --> 02:53:02,760
Speaker 6: special unit within the US Minute Now, the PDF very

3163
02:53:02,800 --> 02:53:05,720
Speaker 6: obviously did not have combat divers. Two years ago, I

3164
02:53:05,840 --> 02:53:10,080
Speaker 6: was looking into hobby scuba diving in Yangon. The rivers

3165
02:53:10,160 --> 02:53:13,280
Speaker 6: in that area are extremely muddy and visibility is very low,

3166
02:53:14,120 --> 02:53:17,160
Speaker 6: So the people who you find diving in that area

3167
02:53:17,280 --> 02:53:20,119
Speaker 6: are not so much like hobby scuba divers or free divers,

3168
02:53:20,240 --> 02:53:24,560
Speaker 6: but there's salvage divers and there's a whole little industry

3169
02:53:24,600 --> 02:53:29,920
Speaker 6: of people. And these people are diving in equipment that

3170
02:53:29,959 --> 02:53:33,280
Speaker 6: I would not consider safe or reliable. It's clamping an

3171
02:53:33,360 --> 02:53:36,760
Speaker 6: air hose in between your teeth and diving down and

3172
02:53:36,879 --> 02:53:39,720
Speaker 6: trying to find there's a large deposit of coal in

3173
02:53:39,800 --> 02:53:41,520
Speaker 6: one of the rivers in Yangon because of a ship

3174
02:53:41,600 --> 02:53:44,840
Speaker 6: that's sunk. There was a course copper, which everyone all

3175
02:53:44,879 --> 02:53:48,039
Speaker 6: around the world, including the Vigcong in Santia, are stealing copper.

3176
02:53:48,920 --> 02:53:52,000
Speaker 6: There's iron, right, So these people are diving down and

3177
02:53:52,120 --> 02:53:55,840
Speaker 6: trying to collect scrap and sell that for whatever minimal

3178
02:53:55,879 --> 02:54:00,680
Speaker 6: amount they can. Right, It's an extremely dangerous an extremely

3179
02:54:00,760 --> 02:54:05,120
Speaker 6: low income. It's one of the sort of really high risk,

3180
02:54:05,200 --> 02:54:07,680
Speaker 6: low reward jobs that you get in economies where people

3181
02:54:07,720 --> 02:54:11,440
Speaker 6: are really struggling to make ends meet, right, So those

3182
02:54:11,480 --> 02:54:14,520
Speaker 6: are the only divers I can find evidence of in Yangon.

3183
02:54:14,640 --> 02:54:16,600
Speaker 6: I don't think it was them who did this, because

3184
02:54:16,879 --> 02:54:18,360
Speaker 6: you have to have a boat above you with a

3185
02:54:18,400 --> 02:54:20,840
Speaker 6: pump if you're diving with a rubber hose in your teeth, right,

3186
02:54:21,240 --> 02:54:27,080
Speaker 6: So it seems like somebody in within the They said

3187
02:54:27,080 --> 02:54:29,320
Speaker 6: it was a Yangon PDF, that's what they attribute it to,

3188
02:54:29,560 --> 02:54:32,920
Speaker 6: So that would be one of these. It would likely

3189
02:54:32,959 --> 02:54:35,879
Speaker 6: be an underground group within the PDF, right, some people

3190
02:54:35,959 --> 02:54:38,640
Speaker 6: living in the city who were able to sneak onto

3191
02:54:38,680 --> 02:54:40,480
Speaker 6: this boat, set a charge and blow it up, And

3192
02:54:40,520 --> 02:54:42,720
Speaker 6: they would also had to have intelligence at the boat

3193
02:54:43,400 --> 02:54:46,400
Speaker 6: where it was, what it was carrying, et cetera. It's

3194
02:54:46,440 --> 02:54:50,400
Speaker 6: a pretty pretty daring mission that this is the first

3195
02:54:50,440 --> 02:54:52,720
Speaker 6: one like this we've seen, and we haven't seen anything since.

3196
02:54:52,840 --> 02:54:56,000
Speaker 6: But it's of course possible that this is a story

3197
02:54:56,080 --> 02:54:58,600
Speaker 6: that we're being told. In fact, they had like someone

3198
02:54:58,680 --> 02:55:01,560
Speaker 6: undercover on the ship, right, or like they had some

3199
02:55:01,680 --> 02:55:04,320
Speaker 6: other means of getting this charge onto the ship. But

3200
02:55:05,240 --> 02:55:07,040
Speaker 6: one way or another they managed to blow up this

3201
02:55:07,120 --> 02:55:11,040
Speaker 6: ship carrying fuel, which is a significant debt trim. Yeah, right,

3202
02:55:11,560 --> 02:55:13,280
Speaker 6: and that's how they get most of their shit, it's

3203
02:55:13,320 --> 02:55:16,160
Speaker 6: not over land, especially with more the.

3204
02:55:16,320 --> 02:55:20,320
Speaker 2: Terrain there is just absolutely like even with modern technology

3205
02:55:20,400 --> 02:55:22,320
Speaker 2: difficult to get significant amounts of shit through.

3206
02:55:22,840 --> 02:55:26,480
Speaker 6: They're resupplying some of their outposts that are ten miles

3207
02:55:26,520 --> 02:55:29,320
Speaker 6: from a town with helicopters right now, like A the

3208
02:55:29,440 --> 02:55:36,119
Speaker 6: terrain is burly, and B they don't have The PDF

3209
02:55:36,200 --> 02:55:38,880
Speaker 6: has denied them access that. Any time they send out

3210
02:55:38,920 --> 02:55:42,360
Speaker 6: a convoy, it gets attacked, so setting out. Plus, you

3211
02:55:42,440 --> 02:55:45,600
Speaker 6: know that their land border crossings are increasingly falling into

3212
02:55:45,640 --> 02:55:49,360
Speaker 6: the hands of the PDFs and the ROS, So getting

3213
02:55:49,400 --> 02:55:50,880
Speaker 6: stuff through the ocean is one of the ways that

3214
02:55:50,920 --> 02:55:53,480
Speaker 6: they can still get stuff. And if this keeps happening,

3215
02:55:53,600 --> 02:55:55,960
Speaker 6: then they will make that more expensive for them. And

3216
02:55:56,120 --> 02:55:59,200
Speaker 6: they're not exactly a wealthy like hunter, even though I

3217
02:55:59,240 --> 02:56:02,720
Speaker 6: guess Lung just made himself an air force one recently.

3218
02:56:02,879 --> 02:56:03,840
Speaker 6: I was just looking at it today.

3219
02:56:03,920 --> 02:56:04,520
Speaker 2: He's good.

3220
02:56:04,560 --> 02:56:08,200
Speaker 6: He's got himself too luxury. Yeah, they called it dictator class,

3221
02:56:08,720 --> 02:56:10,720
Speaker 6: like he's upgraded from president class.

3222
02:56:10,840 --> 02:56:11,080
Speaker 2: Nice.

3223
02:56:11,840 --> 02:56:16,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yes, he has in many ways. So, yeah,

3224
02:56:16,720 --> 02:56:18,840
Speaker 6: that's one way that the PDF has been blowing up

3225
02:56:18,840 --> 02:56:21,400
Speaker 6: ships in the Yangon Robert, do you know who else

3226
02:56:21,920 --> 02:56:24,600
Speaker 6: has been blowing up ships in the yang In Yangon.

3227
02:56:25,320 --> 02:56:30,480
Speaker 2: Well, we are sponsored entirely by the British Navy circa

3228
02:56:30,560 --> 02:56:33,640
Speaker 2: the mid eighteen hundreds, so I would guess them that's right.

3229
02:56:33,720 --> 02:56:37,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Lots of repressed, repressed

3230
02:56:37,600 --> 02:56:39,400
Speaker 6: feelings and growing up a.

3231
02:56:39,720 --> 02:56:44,480
Speaker 2: Lot of cabin boys with deep trauma. Anyway, here's the ass.

3232
02:56:44,720 --> 02:56:57,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, all right, we're Becka. We hope you enjoyed that.

3233
02:56:57,760 --> 02:57:00,200
Speaker 6: That pivot one of our best ones yet. And we're

3234
02:57:00,240 --> 02:57:04,400
Speaker 6: talking about the Arakan Army now. So the Arakan Army

3235
02:57:04,879 --> 02:57:07,080
Speaker 6: are not to be confused with the Arakan Rahine of

3236
02:57:07,120 --> 02:57:10,320
Speaker 6: Salvation Army. Different group. Arakan is a name of what

3237
02:57:10,520 --> 02:57:12,920
Speaker 6: is now a kind state before it was colonized by

3238
02:57:12,959 --> 02:57:15,560
Speaker 6: the Burmese. That was I think Arakan was a king

3239
02:57:15,680 --> 02:57:17,840
Speaker 6: before it was colonized by the Burmese, so that that's

3240
02:57:17,879 --> 02:57:21,440
Speaker 6: where that refers to. It's a geographical appellation rather than

3241
02:57:21,840 --> 02:57:24,720
Speaker 6: like necessarily an ethnic one. The Rakin would be the

3242
02:57:24,760 --> 02:57:28,520
Speaker 6: ethnic group. So what the AA have done is sunk

3243
02:57:28,680 --> 02:57:32,959
Speaker 6: I think at least four Hunter ships now, and most

3244
02:57:33,000 --> 02:57:35,920
Speaker 6: of these ships are kind of they're like the they

3245
02:57:35,959 --> 02:57:39,080
Speaker 6: look like big Higgins boats. They're like landing craft or

3246
02:57:39,120 --> 02:57:42,440
Speaker 6: like car ferries, like flat bottom with a bow that

3247
02:57:42,560 --> 02:57:43,080
Speaker 6: goes down.

3248
02:57:43,280 --> 02:57:43,400
Speaker 4: Right.

3249
02:57:43,760 --> 02:57:45,520
Speaker 6: I rode around a lot in the Marshall Islands in

3250
02:57:45,840 --> 02:57:47,760
Speaker 6: little landing craft like that because they can get them in.

3251
02:57:47,840 --> 02:57:50,040
Speaker 6: They don't have like docks, so they can just ride

3252
02:57:50,040 --> 02:57:51,360
Speaker 6: that right up to the beach and then drop the

3253
02:57:51,400 --> 02:57:54,280
Speaker 6: front and off you go. And they use them a lot.

3254
02:57:54,600 --> 02:57:57,400
Speaker 6: The Hunter doesn't have like per se marines that they

3255
02:57:57,440 --> 02:58:00,680
Speaker 6: don't have maritime infantry, but they they use them to

3256
02:58:00,720 --> 02:58:04,000
Speaker 6: transport their regular army around, right, and they use them

3257
02:58:04,040 --> 02:58:06,400
Speaker 6: to transport them up river. They also use them a

3258
02:58:06,560 --> 02:58:11,320
Speaker 6: lot in Rakhine State to shell AA positions and any

3259
02:58:11,640 --> 02:58:13,800
Speaker 6: townships that they've decided they want to wipe off the

3260
02:58:13,840 --> 02:58:15,040
Speaker 6: map and kill all the people in.

3261
02:58:15,240 --> 02:58:15,360
Speaker 4: Right.

3262
02:58:15,440 --> 02:58:18,840
Speaker 6: So these these boats have been a real like thorn

3263
02:58:18,920 --> 02:58:21,600
Speaker 6: in the side of the Aracan Army. After Operation ten

3264
02:58:21,640 --> 02:58:25,760
Speaker 6: twenty seven, when they joined with two other groups to

3265
02:58:25,840 --> 02:58:28,240
Speaker 6: form the Three Brotherhood Alliance, A launch attacks on the

3266
02:58:28,320 --> 02:58:31,880
Speaker 6: Hunter all over Vima. And so what they've been doing,

3267
02:58:31,959 --> 02:58:36,720
Speaker 6: it appears, is using underwater mines to sink these ships,

3268
02:58:37,000 --> 02:58:42,600
Speaker 6: which is interesting, right, Like, I guess the mines are

3269
02:58:42,760 --> 02:58:45,760
Speaker 6: like a very old technology, right, it's probably one hundred

3270
02:58:45,840 --> 02:58:50,240
Speaker 6: years plus underwater mines have existed. It seems the way

3271
02:58:50,400 --> 02:58:53,120
Speaker 6: that like, the reason they're able to get away with

3272
02:58:53,360 --> 02:58:56,040
Speaker 6: using what is their relatively dated technology is because the

3273
02:58:56,120 --> 02:58:59,520
Speaker 6: hunter doesn't expect to encounter anything, right, and so has

3274
02:58:59,560 --> 02:59:02,480
Speaker 6: not equiped its ships as such, Like they do have

3275
02:59:02,600 --> 02:59:05,040
Speaker 6: stuff like submarines, but that's not what's getting sunk. What's

3276
02:59:05,040 --> 02:59:07,640
Speaker 6: getting sun of these big kind of landing craft riverboats,

3277
02:59:08,080 --> 02:59:10,760
Speaker 6: And it seems that they're using mines and then once

3278
02:59:10,840 --> 02:59:13,640
Speaker 6: they disabled the ship, they're then attacking it with small boats,

3279
02:59:13,720 --> 02:59:18,360
Speaker 6: small arms like indirect fire mortars and stuff. I saw

3280
02:59:18,440 --> 02:59:20,800
Speaker 6: one post that suggested they'd use which is pretty cool

3281
02:59:20,920 --> 02:59:24,840
Speaker 6: if they did. The Burmese military has these like tank destroyers.

3282
02:59:25,920 --> 02:59:29,360
Speaker 6: It's a tank, it's what it is, and they've captured

3283
02:59:29,400 --> 02:59:31,640
Speaker 6: the AA has captured a number of these, and I've

3284
02:59:31,720 --> 02:59:34,800
Speaker 6: seen suggestions that they're using some of these on like

3285
02:59:34,920 --> 02:59:36,640
Speaker 6: they just set up an ambush along the banks of

3286
02:59:36,680 --> 02:59:38,560
Speaker 6: the river, right and as a ship comes in they

3287
02:59:38,600 --> 02:59:40,480
Speaker 6: can they can maybe disable it with a mine and

3288
02:59:40,520 --> 02:59:42,960
Speaker 6: then attack it with those. But there are videos online

3289
02:59:42,959 --> 02:59:46,560
Speaker 6: you can find them of the AA sinking these ships

3290
02:59:46,640 --> 02:59:49,760
Speaker 6: and then they've done some amazing drone photography of like

3291
02:59:49,879 --> 02:59:53,800
Speaker 6: they obviously they then like staged their units on the ships,

3292
02:59:53,920 --> 02:59:56,000
Speaker 6: like all saluting the drone and they had the Arakan

3293
02:59:56,120 --> 02:59:59,400
Speaker 6: Army flags and they're actually really cool photos of them

3294
02:59:59,440 --> 03:00:02,480
Speaker 6: taking these. But again, like I think this might be

3295
03:00:02,560 --> 03:00:09,160
Speaker 6: the first sinking of a Bermese naval ship since since

3296
03:00:09,200 --> 03:00:12,120
Speaker 6: independence from Britain, Like I can't think that they were.

3297
03:00:12,160 --> 03:00:14,240
Speaker 6: They really haven't played much of a role at all

3298
03:00:14,360 --> 03:00:18,000
Speaker 6: in its comics with the Eros aside as from like

3299
03:00:18,480 --> 03:00:21,400
Speaker 6: basically kind of just shelling places when they want to

3300
03:00:21,480 --> 03:00:24,680
Speaker 6: do that. But there's never really been any significant opposition

3301
03:00:24,720 --> 03:00:27,320
Speaker 6: to them, and that's changed now they have to obviously,

3302
03:00:27,840 --> 03:00:30,199
Speaker 6: just like everywhere else, watch out for drones. R drones

3303
03:00:30,240 --> 03:00:33,920
Speaker 6: have been used to a massive extent in Myanmar, and

3304
03:00:34,120 --> 03:00:37,600
Speaker 6: like the AA doesn't have as many like associated PDFs,

3305
03:00:37,640 --> 03:00:40,400
Speaker 6: I haven't seen them doing as much of the drone

3306
03:00:40,440 --> 03:00:43,800
Speaker 6: stuff as the PDFs. The pdf tend to be like

3307
03:00:44,440 --> 03:00:47,120
Speaker 6: the more urban folks, right, the younger folks and the

3308
03:00:47,959 --> 03:00:50,480
Speaker 6: gen Z folks that we've spoken about before, and a

3309
03:00:50,560 --> 03:00:52,800
Speaker 6: lot of them have been very savvy with their use

3310
03:00:52,840 --> 03:00:54,720
Speaker 6: of drones. Like I said, you can look up Federal

3311
03:00:54,760 --> 03:00:58,000
Speaker 6: wings and you can see them dropping bombs with drones

3312
03:00:58,040 --> 03:01:01,400
Speaker 6: and all kinds of stuff with their heavy metal soundtracks.

3313
03:01:01,400 --> 03:01:04,520
Speaker 6: So they like, but that what it wasn't even drone

3314
03:01:04,560 --> 03:01:06,440
Speaker 6: to you, it's pretty simple. It was just mine. So

3315
03:01:06,920 --> 03:01:09,640
Speaker 6: things they do love mines and meat of mines all

3316
03:01:09,640 --> 03:01:12,960
Speaker 6: over that country. But in this case, these I guess

3317
03:01:13,080 --> 03:01:15,720
Speaker 6: massive what mines in the rivers. Given that the Hunter

3318
03:01:15,959 --> 03:01:19,360
Speaker 6: is the only only entity sending big boats up and down,

3319
03:01:19,879 --> 03:01:21,360
Speaker 6: you could set them at a certain depth where these

3320
03:01:21,360 --> 03:01:23,840
Speaker 6: small boats wouldn't hit them, and eventually one of the

3321
03:01:23,920 --> 03:01:25,560
Speaker 6: Hunter boats is going to hit them, I guess. And

3322
03:01:25,959 --> 03:01:29,440
Speaker 6: so it's pretty basic technology, but it's still a massive

3323
03:01:29,440 --> 03:01:32,120
Speaker 6: step forward in terms of like a place where the

3324
03:01:32,240 --> 03:01:35,440
Speaker 6: state had complete impunity, it now doesn't.

3325
03:01:35,560 --> 03:01:35,680
Speaker 1: Right.

3326
03:01:35,760 --> 03:01:38,400
Speaker 6: They can't just cruise up and down these rivers shelling people.

3327
03:01:38,800 --> 03:01:41,080
Speaker 6: They were actually using some of the ships to evacuate

3328
03:01:41,200 --> 03:01:44,320
Speaker 6: soldiers and their families from a position. The soldiers they

3329
03:01:44,360 --> 03:01:46,560
Speaker 6: were trying to like, rather than surrendering, they were trying

3330
03:01:46,560 --> 03:01:49,840
Speaker 6: to evacuate them and move them to somewhere else. The

3331
03:01:49,959 --> 03:01:51,760
Speaker 6: AA asked them to surrender, and they didn't. They tried

3332
03:01:51,760 --> 03:01:53,960
Speaker 6: to evacuate them. So then they mined the ships and

3333
03:01:54,280 --> 03:01:58,440
Speaker 6: took those out. I think the hunters. Like tried to

3334
03:01:58,480 --> 03:02:01,640
Speaker 6: spin this as like the AA is attacking civilians, but

3335
03:02:02,120 --> 03:02:05,320
Speaker 6: I think a Burmese Navy ship with a Burmese Navy flag,

3336
03:02:05,720 --> 03:02:07,560
Speaker 6: when those ships have just been shelling you, seems like

3337
03:02:07,600 --> 03:02:09,880
Speaker 6: a legitimate target to me. And I think it's very hard.

3338
03:02:10,160 --> 03:02:12,960
Speaker 6: It's you know, it's a hunter, but children on one

3339
03:02:13,000 --> 03:02:16,160
Speaker 6: of their naval ships rather than the AA who attacked

3340
03:02:16,200 --> 03:02:18,880
Speaker 6: the ship because it had children. You can hear in

3341
03:02:19,040 --> 03:02:20,959
Speaker 6: one of the things. You can hear the AA are

3342
03:02:21,040 --> 03:02:23,360
Speaker 6: like attacking the ship in small boats and they're shouting

3343
03:02:23,480 --> 03:02:25,320
Speaker 6: like there are children on board, and you can hear

3344
03:02:25,320 --> 03:02:27,480
Speaker 6: them acknowledging it. And there are videos of the AA

3345
03:02:27,680 --> 03:02:32,280
Speaker 6: rescuing people who jumped overboard, rescuing them from the river,

3346
03:02:32,760 --> 03:02:37,800
Speaker 6: and then like, I guess they've just held us. POW's cool. Yeah,

3347
03:02:37,879 --> 03:02:40,840
Speaker 6: it's cool. It's interesting. Obviously, not many of us have

3348
03:02:40,959 --> 03:02:45,840
Speaker 6: access to underwater mines, but you know, maybe in a

3349
03:02:45,879 --> 03:02:47,000
Speaker 6: fictional future we might.

3350
03:02:47,720 --> 03:02:51,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, there you go, folks. This has been irregular

3351
03:02:52,080 --> 03:02:57,400
Speaker 2: naval warfare. And you a podcast about a regular naval

3352
03:02:57,480 --> 03:02:58,640
Speaker 2: warfare and you.

3353
03:02:59,600 --> 03:03:02,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, send us to your videos of yourself. Yeah, ir

3354
03:03:02,280 --> 03:03:03,039
Speaker 6: regular naval.

3355
03:03:03,120 --> 03:03:05,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, go out there. Look how about this, Every

3356
03:03:05,640 --> 03:03:09,680
Speaker 2: listener go out and sink one naval vessel, you know,

3357
03:03:10,280 --> 03:03:13,320
Speaker 2: no matter who's just any boat. Any go sink a boat,

3358
03:03:13,360 --> 03:03:17,880
Speaker 2: any boat, take super yot, knock it out. You see

3359
03:03:17,879 --> 03:03:21,840
Speaker 2: a dinghy, take that fucker out. People kayaking, fuck them up,

3360
03:03:22,080 --> 03:03:25,520
Speaker 2: you know. Ban on a boat, absolutely, a banana boat

3361
03:03:25,600 --> 03:03:28,400
Speaker 2: for sure. One of those weird duck boat car things

3362
03:03:28,440 --> 03:03:31,120
Speaker 2: that they have in some city. Oh yeah, actually, you

3363
03:03:31,200 --> 03:03:32,800
Speaker 2: know what, you don't need to do anything with that.

3364
03:03:32,920 --> 03:03:36,480
Speaker 2: That'll kill everybody on board on Those things are traps.

3365
03:03:37,840 --> 03:03:38,560
Speaker 2: Just pray for those.

3366
03:03:39,240 --> 03:03:42,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, any any other boat. Yeah, you see a doughnut,

3367
03:03:42,200 --> 03:03:44,280
Speaker 6: you know behind a speedboat?

3368
03:03:44,520 --> 03:03:52,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, murk it anyway, everybody go away. Hey, we'll

3369
03:03:52,640 --> 03:03:55,680
Speaker 2: be back Monday with more episodes every week from now

3370
03:03:55,840 --> 03:03:57,200
Speaker 2: until the heat death of the Universe.

3371
03:03:57,840 --> 03:03:59,760
Speaker 5: It Could Happen here as a production of Pool Zone.

3372
03:03:59,800 --> 03:04:02,640
Speaker 4: Need for more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our

3373
03:04:02,680 --> 03:04:05,320
Speaker 4: website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

3374
03:04:05,400 --> 03:04:08,760
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3375
03:04:09,200 --> 03:04:11,320
Speaker 5: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

3376
03:04:11,400 --> 03:04:14,400
Speaker 5: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.

3377
03:04:14,640 --> 03:04:15,400
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening,