1
00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,160
Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to. Here's the thing,

2
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,719
Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policy makers, and performers,

3
00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,200
Speaker 1: to hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions

4
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:21,040
Speaker 1: change their careers, what relationships influenced their work? This week,

5
00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 1: conservation a subject I'm deeply committed to. My guests today

6
00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,520
Speaker 1: are passionate about protecting two very different locations. Rob Snyder

7
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,360
Speaker 1: helps island and remote coastal communities in Maine adapt to

8
00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,520
Speaker 1: changing environmental and economic factors. But first I sit down

9
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,880
Speaker 1: with Andrew Berman, the executive director of the Greenwich Village

10
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,120
Speaker 1: Society for Historic Preservation. Berman goes after the big dogs

11
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,519
Speaker 1: in New York City real estate, like n y U

12
00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,720
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump, and he and his team can count

13
00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:56,760
Speaker 1: many victories. Under his direction, the society secured landmark protection

14
00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,800
Speaker 1: for over one thousand buildings. I want to know about

15
00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:05,160
Speaker 1: his biggest heartbreak, the building that got away. I expected

16
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,520
Speaker 1: him to be moaned the upcoming expansion of the Chelsea Market,

17
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,920
Speaker 1: pushed through by Christine Quim, former Speaker of the New

18
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 1: York City Council and Merrill candidate, But I got a

19
00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 1: very different response. You know this is gonna sound sort

20
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,319
Speaker 1: of strange, but one of my personal favorites that we

21
00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,800
Speaker 1: lost was this beautiful building called the Tunnel Garage, which,

22
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,520
Speaker 1: believe it or not, was a parking garage. Would you

23
00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,440
Speaker 1: would never think who would care about a parking garage?

24
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,200
Speaker 1: It was one of the first purpose built parking garages

25
00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,760
Speaker 1: in New York. It was this beautiful Art Deco building

26
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 1: that had a medallion on it that was an image

27
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,040
Speaker 1: of a model t forward emerging from the Holland Tunnel,

28
00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,880
Speaker 1: which hadn't even yet been built. When this tunnel, which

29
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:47,880
Speaker 1: was built near the entrance to the Holland Tunnel. Where

30
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 1: was this. This was on the corner of Broom Street

31
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 1: and Thompson Street, so sort of at the edge of

32
00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,200
Speaker 1: soho the South Village. Beautiful building, I mean it really,

33
00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,200
Speaker 1: if there's a parking garage anywhere on Earth that people

34
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 1: would rhpsodize about, it was this one. And it had

35
00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,880
Speaker 1: been on sort of lists for years of a building

36
00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 1: to be saved. A developer came along and bought it

37
00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,840
Speaker 1: and said, you know, I just want to tear it

38
00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,639
Speaker 1: down and build a slightly larger condominium building. Here. How

39
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,760
Speaker 1: many stories, eight stories? How many units? I think about

40
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,680
Speaker 1: thirty or so, you know, pretty a bland, you know,

41
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:22,880
Speaker 1: sort of you never look at the building, you never

42
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,079
Speaker 1: look at it twice. What's another example, Well, here's one

43
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,959
Speaker 1: where sort of the opposite. There was a vacant lot

44
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,000
Speaker 1: at the northern end of the Greenwich Village Historic District

45
00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,800
Speaker 1: and there was a plan to develop it, which we

46
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,040
Speaker 1: had no objections to. You know, vacant lots are there

47
00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,840
Speaker 1: to be developed. Um. But the developer put forward a

48
00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 1: proposal for this thirteen story curving, entirely glass walled building

49
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,320
Speaker 1: in the Greenwich Village Historic District and we thought that's ludicrous,

50
00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,920
Speaker 1: that would never never be approved. What does that have

51
00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 1: to do with the Greenwich Village Historic District. The notion

52
00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,359
Speaker 1: is new development in these areas should kind of fit

53
00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,400
Speaker 1: the character. They don't have to mimic it. It doesn't

54
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:04,320
Speaker 1: have to be a town some compatibility. The Commission unanimously

55
00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 1: approved it, which we were really taken aback by. Um.

56
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,120
Speaker 1: What's one that was a tremendous victory for you whereas

57
00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,239
Speaker 1: where something where you guys really fought and scored. I'd

58
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,120
Speaker 1: say one of the ones that we're most proudest of

59
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 1: is the part of Greenwich Village South of Washington Square

60
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,560
Speaker 1: what we often called the South Village, the part of

61
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 1: Greenwich Village that everybody associates with, you know, the folk Revival,

62
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,400
Speaker 1: the Beatnicks in the nineties and nineteen sixties. Bleaker McDougal.

63
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: That area amazingly was not protected by landmark protections. Any

64
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 1: of those buildings could have been demolished and replaced with

65
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 1: pretty hiddeo New York. Yes, very much so. UM And

66
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 1: after really fifty years of people trying to get that

67
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,640
Speaker 1: area landmarks, we were able to get it landmarked in

68
00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,640
Speaker 1: two stage. Uh. It took uh thousands of people really

69
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 1: coming together and pushing the city. In One part of

70
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,240
Speaker 1: it is we actually had almost sort of blackmailed the city.

71
00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 1: They wanted to get an area adjacent to that reasoned

72
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,920
Speaker 1: as basically a sort of a stop to a developer,

73
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 1: Trinity real Estate in this case, UM, and we pushed

74
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,080
Speaker 1: the city council to say, we won't approve the reasoning

75
00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,880
Speaker 1: that you the city want, unless you move ahead with

76
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,520
Speaker 1: this landmarking that the community has been asking for for years.

77
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,360
Speaker 1: So we really kind of backed them into a corner. UM.

78
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,040
Speaker 1: And we, to be honest, we sort of used um

79
00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,960
Speaker 1: election year of politics as a bit of a cudgel. Um.

80
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 1: You know, people were trying to look like they were

81
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,159
Speaker 1: being friendly to the community, so uh, we were able

82
00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,000
Speaker 1: to make them do something that they had not wanted

83
00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:36,880
Speaker 1: to do and had been unwilling to do for years.

84
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,720
Speaker 1: What area do you live in yourself? I actually live

85
00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 1: in Hell's Kitchen, so I'm a bit further to the north. UM,

86
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 1: but I'm a lifelong New Yorker. I've worked in the

87
00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,000
Speaker 1: village where I grew up, in the Bronx, but I've

88
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,680
Speaker 1: been working in the village and on the West side

89
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,880
Speaker 1: of Manhattan since uh for over twenty years. Where did

90
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,039
Speaker 1: you go to schools? I went to Bronx High School

91
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,400
Speaker 1: of Science. UM, so I've lived in New York my

92
00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,680
Speaker 1: whole life. What about college where you go? I went

93
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,599
Speaker 1: to as Leyan University. Would you study art history with

94
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,720
Speaker 1: a focus on architecture and urban planning? Talk about if

95
00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:10,000
Speaker 1: you would. What happened to Christine Quinn with the Chelsea Market,

96
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,640
Speaker 1: Because of my understanding is correct, that was in her district.

97
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 1: And I want to be very clear that during that

98
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,840
Speaker 1: political race, I endorsed de Blasio and worked for de

99
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,040
Speaker 1: Blasio and did not support Quinn. And this is not

100
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,200
Speaker 1: you know, to bash Quinn at all, but describe what

101
00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,240
Speaker 1: happened in that Chelsea marketing and what you think was

102
00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,640
Speaker 1: going on pressures that were on her. Yeah. Well, so

103
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, Chelsea Market is this old industrial complex built

104
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,880
Speaker 1: by Nibisco in Chelsea, UM. That was Nibisco Factories, Bisco

105
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,440
Speaker 1: Factories where the oreo was invented bakery. Yeah, and who

106
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,160
Speaker 1: developed into into the current Chelsea market how long ago?

107
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,160
Speaker 1: It was originally another group of people, including a guy

108
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,479
Speaker 1: named Irwin Cohen, and that was in the late ninety

109
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 1: nineties that have been sitting there basically abandoned UM. And

110
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,080
Speaker 1: he came up with this idea that everybody thought was

111
00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,640
Speaker 1: crazy at the time because this was a real backwater

112
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,919
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, of turning it into this huge retail

113
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:07,600
Speaker 1: market UM with offices and things like that. Yeah, and

114
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,360
Speaker 1: it was wildly successful. You know, the neighborhood around it transformed.

115
00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,800
Speaker 1: It's a huge building. It's a beautiful old building, but

116
00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,839
Speaker 1: it's a huge building. They have air rights up above.

117
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 1: They did not have air rights up above, and that

118
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 1: that's that's where the key comes in with this. So

119
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,480
Speaker 1: they wanted to build basically two towers on top of

120
00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,480
Speaker 1: this lovely old building. But they couldn't because they had

121
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,400
Speaker 1: no development on top of the eight stories that are

122
00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,560
Speaker 1: already there on top of the building that already exists.

123
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 1: So they came to the city and they said, we

124
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 1: want you to rezone us to give us these stories

125
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,320
Speaker 1: that they Originally it was going to be, uh, the

126
00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,000
Speaker 1: addition was going to go up to something like two

127
00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,159
Speaker 1: fifty feet in the air or something like that. I

128
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,520
Speaker 1: mean huge, and one on the west end, one on

129
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,880
Speaker 1: the Yeah, yeah, huge building, huge building. Um. And you know,

130
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,000
Speaker 1: at this point Quinn had already kind of shown herself

131
00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 1: to be very willing to be accommodating to developers, so

132
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,400
Speaker 1: we knew this was going to be an uphill battle

133
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,880
Speaker 1: at best. Although Chelsea was where she was from, and

134
00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,000
Speaker 1: a lot of the people who were very animantly opposed

135
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,240
Speaker 1: to it, where people she'd known and worked closely with

136
00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 1: for years, We were opposed to it as well, and

137
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,240
Speaker 1: she did eventually approve it. A slightly scaled back version

138
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 1: made it a little less a little less bad as

139
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,120
Speaker 1: the work started already. No, and when it's not been

140
00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 1: clear to us why they haven't moved ahead yet, but

141
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,040
Speaker 1: they have all the approval, so it's really up to

142
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,520
Speaker 1: them to go any time that they want. But this

143
00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,800
Speaker 1: was definitely a disappointment. And what was particularly disappointing was

144
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,520
Speaker 1: that there were commitments that were quote unquote made as

145
00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 1: part of this approval about how it would have to

146
00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,160
Speaker 1: remain all independent businesses, there couldn't be chain stores and

147
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,360
Speaker 1: all these other kinds of things, which it turned out

148
00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,120
Speaker 1: none of these agreements were enforceable. It was really just

149
00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,040
Speaker 1: sort of window dressing to this approval that the city

150
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,560
Speaker 1: gave them, and that's disappointing when you see things like

151
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,680
Speaker 1: that happen. When do buildings need to come down? Things

152
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,480
Speaker 1: have to change, We need to make room for more people.

153
00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,560
Speaker 1: Is that a reality for you? Oh, it's absolutely reality,

154
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,360
Speaker 1: and you know we would want Did you acknowledge that

155
00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,840
Speaker 1: one you wanted to save ultimately didn't need to be saved.

156
00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. There's areas of um Our

157
00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,120
Speaker 1: neighborhoods where we've fought for new zoning that we thought

158
00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,440
Speaker 1: would encourage good development as opposed to bad developments, which

159
00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,920
Speaker 1: meant the expectation was things will get built. Give us

160
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,920
Speaker 1: an example of an area where this kim into play.

161
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,520
Speaker 1: For instance, in the East Village. We working with a coalition,

162
00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,640
Speaker 1: we're able to get almost the entire East Village re zoned.

163
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 1: So the old zoning would have encouraged big, tall towers,

164
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,559
Speaker 1: It would have encouraged building things like dormitories and hotels.

165
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,080
Speaker 1: Believe it or not, but as an n y U,

166
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,760
Speaker 1: that's where n Yu went to build a lot of

167
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,960
Speaker 1: their dormitories and along Third Avenue in that area. Yes,

168
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 1: and we didn't want to see n Yu take over

169
00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 1: the East Village, so we pushed foreign got a rezoning

170
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,200
Speaker 1: that said, yes, there can be new development here, but

171
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:50,959
Speaker 1: the size and scale of it is going to be

172
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,840
Speaker 1: more like what you think of the East Village. Seven

173
00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,800
Speaker 1: story building, six story buildings. This is what zoning does.

174
00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,800
Speaker 1: You can get these what are called contextual zoning districts

175
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,199
Speaker 1: that says you can build but to a certain high,

176
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 1: certain number of square feet, things of that nature. So

177
00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of developments go up in the

178
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,160
Speaker 1: East Village under this new zoning that are so much

179
00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,320
Speaker 1: more in character with the neighborhood than what would have

180
00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 1: been built under the old zoning. So we weren't pushing

181
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,840
Speaker 1: there to say no new buildings or nothing can ever

182
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 1: be torn down, but that there should be new buildings,

183
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,520
Speaker 1: but it should really reinforce the character of the neighborhood.

184
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,400
Speaker 1: Just around the corner from our office, there was a

185
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,840
Speaker 1: huge parking lot that was just built on with an

186
00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,600
Speaker 1: eight or nine story building. Right next door to it

187
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,760
Speaker 1: is a dorm that n YU built a couple of

188
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,240
Speaker 1: years earlier. That's twenty six stories. Um, there's been quite

189
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,040
Speaker 1: a few new buildings closer to the traditional campus, but

190
00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,679
Speaker 1: this will be a whole additional campus for the university.

191
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 1: Do you feel like, um, the city you turn around

192
00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,040
Speaker 1: one day, you know, we have another subway tunnel, we

193
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,080
Speaker 1: have water tunnels that are coming in. I mean, the

194
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 1: city is constantly, constantly, constantly being changed. And if you

195
00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,079
Speaker 1: had one wish, I mean, I'm sure you have a

196
00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,760
Speaker 1: laundry list of things. What's one wish of how you'd

197
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,720
Speaker 1: like things to change in the next thirty years, you know?

198
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the biggest pressing issue facing New

199
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 1: York is ensuring that it stays a place that's affordable

200
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,520
Speaker 1: and accessible for a broad range of people. So I'd say,

201
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,439
Speaker 1: if if I had one wish for the city, it

202
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 1: would be that that somehow we could it could be

203
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,960
Speaker 1: a place where you know, sort of the most successful

204
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 1: you know, innovators and and zillionaires can live there, and

205
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,240
Speaker 1: poor working folks and the middle class people who are

206
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,680
Speaker 1: you know, sort of raising kids, are starting out or

207
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,199
Speaker 1: living on their own or sort of whatever, and everybody

208
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,680
Speaker 1: in between, you know, the immigrants, the longtime residents, um

209
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,440
Speaker 1: and see some of the steps that were taken to

210
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:48,640
Speaker 1: allow for like Mitchell Lama, that's dying, that Mitchell Lama housing,

211
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,720
Speaker 1: and it's it's tragic for those who don't know who

212
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,920
Speaker 1: we're listening that don't know what Mitchell Lama housing was.

213
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,079
Speaker 1: This was an attempt back then to have the city

214
00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,840
Speaker 1: developed property where developers would build affordable housing and men

215
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,160
Speaker 1: should as affordable housing. I'm being very shorthand with this,

216
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 1: and manage it as affordable housing for a given period

217
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 1: of time, like thirty years or something, and then after

218
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 1: a certain period of time it would slowly devolve, if

219
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,200
Speaker 1: you will, into or evolve into private housing. They would

220
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 1: sell it as condominiums. And right now we're hitting that

221
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,959
Speaker 1: place where, especially in Manhattan, very few of them are left,

222
00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:22,920
Speaker 1: a lot of them. Mitchell Lama's rolling over now to

223
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,800
Speaker 1: private condominiums. Which is really changing the city. But New

224
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,360
Speaker 1: Yorkers have resigned themselves to the fact that affordable housing itself,

225
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,960
Speaker 1: just like pay phones, is a thing of the past,

226
00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,079
Speaker 1: and now more and more people who never dreamed of

227
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,839
Speaker 1: going to Long Island City and to Astoria and to

228
00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,880
Speaker 1: Brooklyn is just a part of Manhattan in terms of

229
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:42,280
Speaker 1: how many people who live and work there and put

230
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:43,760
Speaker 1: their kids in school there, but who work in the

231
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,160
Speaker 1: city and commute. More and more and more people have

232
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,280
Speaker 1: resigned themselves or even are happy to commute. Is that

233
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,040
Speaker 1: your experience as well? Yeah, And you know, in some ways,

234
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 1: I don't think it's such a bad thing that a

235
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,960
Speaker 1: lot of people who would have only considered living in

236
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,280
Speaker 1: Manhattan before now are living throughout the city. What I

237
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 1: think would be a terrible thing is if Manhattan became

238
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,079
Speaker 1: a place that only the wealthy could live, and that

239
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 1: more and more the other boroughs that became the case

240
00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,640
Speaker 1: as well. I'm not sure that I know what the

241
00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:14,760
Speaker 1: answer is. I mean, clearly, if we had a different

242
00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,720
Speaker 1: political environment, we'd have things like Mitchell Armor programs and

243
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,160
Speaker 1: other things to create and build affordable housing, saying this

244
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,280
Speaker 1: is an investment in our city's future. The construction is good.

245
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,160
Speaker 1: It creates jobs. The fact that we give good, affordable

246
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: housing to people who we need to you know, uh,

247
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,280
Speaker 1: to be teachers, to be firemen, to be a sanitation.

248
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,600
Speaker 1: We don't have housing for those people, now, you know,

249
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 1: we were One of the first things that happened in

250
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,520
Speaker 1: New York years ago was the police were successful in

251
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,640
Speaker 1: argument against the residency requirement because they said, you can't

252
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,520
Speaker 1: force me to live here because I can't afford the

253
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,079
Speaker 1: rent here on a policeman's salary. So they did away

254
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 1: with But of course this is a city where rather

255
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,200
Speaker 1: than build affordable housing for people like the police and

256
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,480
Speaker 1: have them invested in the community they live in, they

257
00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,839
Speaker 1: all leave, which makes them somewhat us invested, I think

258
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 1: in the community they live in, although many of them

259
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,720
Speaker 1: come from the city. It seems we could do a

260
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,960
Speaker 1: whole hour about the power of the real estate development

261
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,720
Speaker 1: community and the landlords support in this. I mean, they

262
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,320
Speaker 1: run the city. They run the city in so many ways,

263
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,760
Speaker 1: and they run the city. I mean what gets built,

264
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,760
Speaker 1: what doesn't get These guys like you fight them and

265
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 1: win because public outrage and public passions about these things

266
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,480
Speaker 1: still have some power, right well, all ultimately government makes

267
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,480
Speaker 1: the decisions, and while certainly the people with money and

268
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,000
Speaker 1: access have enormous influence over them, the average people do

269
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,480
Speaker 1: because they vote. And if you, if you exercise that

270
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,719
Speaker 1: um strength that we have, and it's the only thing

271
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,640
Speaker 1: we have, is the power of the vote, that's the

272
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,440
Speaker 1: way that we can affect these I want to finish

273
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:49,120
Speaker 1: with this. The society has an LGBT initiative for some

274
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 1: of the preservation. They do talk about that New York

275
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,040
Speaker 1: and especially the village really has such a wealth of

276
00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,000
Speaker 1: sights connected to the LGBT les being gay, bisexual, transgend.

277
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,120
Speaker 1: The civil rights movements. I mean, uh, the one that

278
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,280
Speaker 1: everybody knows, of course, a Stone Wall where the riots

279
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,440
Speaker 1: took place in nineteen sixty nine, which in many respects

280
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 1: exactly um, but there's many other ones as well. I mean,

281
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 1: just around the corner from there, there's Julius Bar, where

282
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,559
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six there was this sit in or

283
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,240
Speaker 1: sit in as it was called, the first planned civil

284
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,600
Speaker 1: disobedience for gay rights. At that time, A few people

285
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,160
Speaker 1: sort of know or remember this. It was actually illegal

286
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,520
Speaker 1: to serve alcohol to someone who you knew was a homosexual. Um,

287
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,320
Speaker 1: So it in essence made gay bars illegal. That's why

288
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,840
Speaker 1: they were all the Hotel Tennessee. Williams of A stated

289
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,680
Speaker 1: people were breaking the law. I know. Yeah, So as

290
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 1: a result of this, actually there was a legal case

291
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,720
Speaker 1: that more or less change that um and so that

292
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,080
Speaker 1: was put that in a movie. I love that. Yeah.

293
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,400
Speaker 1: You know, back when there were very very very few

294
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 1: places that gay people could meet, almost all of them

295
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,840
Speaker 1: were in places like Greenwich Village. And this year, in

296
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,160
Speaker 1: late June, just a few days before New York City's

297
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 1: annual Pride Parade, and after many years behind the scenes politicking,

298
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,240
Speaker 1: Andrew Berman and his colleagues celebrated early the Stone Wall

299
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,880
Speaker 1: in one it's New York City Landmark status, making it

300
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,960
Speaker 1: the first site designated primarily for its significance to LGBT history.

301
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,600
Speaker 1: Take a listen to the Here's the Thing Archives. I

302
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,760
Speaker 1: talked with another hard working advocate, Josh Fox, the environmental

303
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,000
Speaker 1: activist who's filmed gas Land exposed the dangers of fracking.

304
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,040
Speaker 1: They would say, oh, your water is fine, and then

305
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:37,520
Speaker 1: they would go and get them a glass of water

306
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 1: to drinks. All right, Well, if you think this is

307
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,600
Speaker 1: fine for my mother to drink, then you go ahead

308
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,320
Speaker 1: and drink it, and they wouldn't drink it. Take a

309
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:59,000
Speaker 1: listen at Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec

310
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,200
Speaker 1: Baldwin and or listening to Here's the Thing. Conservation isn't

311
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,080
Speaker 1: only about preserving urban sites. It's also about saving a

312
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 1: way of life. Rob Snyder, president of the Island Institute,

313
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 1: helps communities in remote coastal Maine thrive. I know a

314
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 1: bit about fishing towns, having spent much of my life

315
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,800
Speaker 1: on Long Island. Pressures are different in eastern Long Island

316
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 1: and rural Maine, where I live. It's constant commercial development,

317
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,360
Speaker 1: but the struggle to survive as a working fisherman remains.

318
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,840
Speaker 1: Coastal Maine. As Rob Snyder explained, the situation is more remote.

319
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 1: People is the largest island community in Maine, which one

320
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,920
Speaker 1: Vinyl Haven off of Rockland, Maine, mid coast area, and

321
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,240
Speaker 1: they take a ferry. Yeah, you take a ferry out there. Yeah,

322
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 1: you take a ferry year round, year round. You can

323
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 1: take a ferry. If you're on Matinicus, you have to

324
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 1: take a bush pilot flight on Scotland, air plane flies

325
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,720
Speaker 1: a couple of times a day as long as the

326
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 1: fog is lifted, and you can get year round so

327
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 1: there's no ferry service too, there's a monthly ferry, so

328
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,199
Speaker 1: I kind of want to go hang out way, Why

329
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,160
Speaker 1: are we interviewing those people? So? You know, I think

330
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 1: that interestingly though, the kinds of pressure you're talking about

331
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:16,080
Speaker 1: about how to conserve place and conserve community in places

332
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,080
Speaker 1: where the land is finite and so finite, um, you know,

333
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:25,360
Speaker 1: you really have a huge challenge in balancing conservation and community.

334
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 1: Is there pressure to develop those islands? There really isn't

335
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,440
Speaker 1: the kind of pressure you're talking about. What you see

336
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 1: more so is the as property values escalate, the year

337
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,480
Speaker 1: round community, the people who have been there for many

338
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 1: generations are having a harder time holding on being able

339
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,400
Speaker 1: to pay their tax bills and stay on the islands,

340
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 1: whereas there be you know, whereas you're seeing increasing pressure

341
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 1: which changed, Why is it harder? Why is it harder?

342
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 1: I think there's a two things going on at once.

343
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,400
Speaker 1: I think you have uh main is as you point out,

344
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,159
Speaker 1: it's got an iconic stature that the natural beauty of

345
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,840
Speaker 1: the places absolutely stunning, and so it attracts people to

346
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 1: the coast and more remote more remote. Absolutely people come

347
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,960
Speaker 1: there because they want to get away from UM the

348
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 1: New York Yeah, too much about long and they talk

349
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,440
Speaker 1: about the cape and and other places they want to get.

350
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,399
Speaker 1: Don't have Tiffany and Maine have a Tiffany No, they

351
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,600
Speaker 1: have not even a Tiffany outlet store. Yeah. If you

352
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 1: want a shop, you do not go to the main island. Um.

353
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a you know. You also have

354
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,960
Speaker 1: pressure because so much land has been conserved over time,

355
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,359
Speaker 1: because the main coast has been a place for rustication

356
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,280
Speaker 1: for a hundred plus years, you had people come in

357
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,160
Speaker 1: and conserve large amounts of the main coast, And so

358
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,360
Speaker 1: the communities that are left in these places often are

359
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,639
Speaker 1: highly constrained to raise additional tax money to function as

360
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,360
Speaker 1: a town. A lot of the land is with the tax.

361
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 1: French Borough has of its land conserved. Um where some

362
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,879
Speaker 1: of those families over the last hundred years were the

363
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 1: families we would know of course, for example, I mean

364
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 1: that the Rockefellers had. Yeah, and and to their credit

365
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 1: they put some land aside for future development when they

366
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,760
Speaker 1: made the large land transaction. What we're thinking about now

367
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,760
Speaker 1: is because more and more people still can as as

368
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 1: they should want to consider how to conserve their land

369
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 1: if there if they're going to sell it off or

370
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,920
Speaker 1: if you know, because generations are changing, the younger kids

371
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 1: don't necessarily want the property anymore the money. They want

372
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 1: the money and they also are potentially able to put

373
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,399
Speaker 1: that land into a land trust. So what what is

374
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,359
Speaker 1: the town going to do. Well, we're having a lot

375
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 1: of discussions about how can you be really creative about

376
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,280
Speaker 1: conserve land so you can actually contribute to the community's economy.

377
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 1: So on french Borough, you know, they're looking at all

378
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,680
Speaker 1: all options for for example, for example, um, could you

379
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 1: put camping facility on some of that conserved land? And

380
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 1: that's just one example. In other communities, this is a

381
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 1: big tension on the customine. How much conserve land is

382
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 1: enough is often the question. I think the kind of

383
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,600
Speaker 1: the better question is how can we take advantage of

384
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 1: the economic opportunity to conserve land creates. But back then,

385
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 1: when somebody would have a piece of land, let's say

386
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,199
Speaker 1: it's a thousand acres and you have a compound somewhere

387
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 1: and you pocket a few hundred acres, you pocket a

388
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 1: couple hundred acres for your descendants, and you're gonna leave

389
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 1: land people to build houses in the future and then

390
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,600
Speaker 1: give away the rest and now that's all kind of changed.

391
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,240
Speaker 1: And that's all change in terms of land use. And

392
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 1: when people are thinking about climate, like you've mentioned climate change,

393
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,720
Speaker 1: they're thinking about how can I use this land to

394
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 1: actually make a difference in the place that I love.

395
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 1: I've been coming here as since a child. You know,

396
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 1: maybe I want to put a solar array on this

397
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: piece of land, or maybe I want to put a

398
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 1: wind turbine on this piece of land. You know you

399
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 1: doing up in Maine. I think it's doing well. The

400
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: Islands too, worked with the North Haven and Vinyl Haven

401
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,880
Speaker 1: Islands off the mid coast to build three wind turbans,

402
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 1: so that those communities could be energy neutral. Right, they

403
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:02,160
Speaker 1: produce as much as they consume. Alternative energy is is radically.

404
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 1: It's incredibly important because unless we start inevitable, it's inevitable.

405
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: But until we stop putting carbon in the atmosphere, we're

406
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 1: just going to destroy the ocean. Yeah, I mean, it's

407
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: just it's awful plants exactly. I mean, we're just the

408
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: Gulf of Maine is a gigantic sink for CEO two.

409
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 1: It's I mean, we're seeing clams that are unable to

410
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 1: build shell fast enough clambers who used to go fill

411
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 1: a bucket with clams down in Casco Bay, which is

412
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 1: off the city of Portland's you know, it's got a

413
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,199
Speaker 1: number of island communities there. They can't fill a bucket

414
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 1: all the way anymore because it just crushes the shelves.

415
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: I means it's incredibly such. You know, in a time

416
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 1: when the ocean is changing so much and you're seeing

417
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: species move through your community, you're looking to diversify. You're

418
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is the future hold for me?

419
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 1: What are my economics right? And so you see you know,

420
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 1: you see fishermen starting to experiment with investing in oyster aquaculture,

421
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: looking at Kelp growing Kelp for eight. You're heavy into

422
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 1: this fishing industry and this and this fishing fishing and

423
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 1: energy and energys of our work. I mean, you're trying

424
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 1: to protect communities and lifestyle. And the Island Institute is

425
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: about sustaining island communities, island and remote coastal, about conserving land.

426
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,719
Speaker 1: It's really preventing building on land. No. I mean, when

427
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 1: we started thirty years ago, there's no question that people,

428
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, we we owned islands, we helped develop model,

429
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: experimental models for how you could reintroduce sheep to island

430
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: private islands, and how you could maintain pastures and how

431
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: you could do homebuilders have an alliance there that you

432
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: have to contend with their no. I mean we're we

433
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: are viewed as a bridge because that's ultimately the people

434
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 1: who do live in the community year round. What do

435
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 1: they do typically? Well, you have age, yes, so large

436
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 1: service sector, a lot of caretaking, a lot of how

437
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 1: we keep housekeeping, you know, transportation, fairy transportation. You have

438
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: people who um do telecommunity so we have increasing number

439
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: of people who are working online from the islands in Maine,

440
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 1: and I think that's an important part of the future.

441
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 1: I hope, you know, I see, I see that as

442
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: being possible. Obviously, education, healthcare, the stuff you would expect.

443
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 1: There's elder care facilities on these islands. There's beautiful schools,

444
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 1: whether it's a one room schoolhouse or a K through

445
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: twelve uh school. You know, they they're large employers as

446
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: well as the municipality because we have of course a

447
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: lot of local control in Maine. But then the vast

448
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 1: majority the rest of it's fishing, right, it's you know,

449
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: you go to a place like Vinyl Haven. You have

450
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,959
Speaker 1: three D fifty boat captains and their crews living on

451
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 1: that island. Right. You have six thousand lobster fishermen in Maine.

452
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: It's the last large it's an incredibly small boat but

453
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: very large fleet fishery. Right, So six thousand of those

454
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: guys I think about active, actively fishing. You know, there's

455
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: obviously folks who are retired and too young to be

456
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: full time. But you know, that's a big that's a

457
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: big piece of the economy. That's why you hear me

458
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 1: talking so much about this. Affordability is a big piece

459
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,479
Speaker 1: of it. We've made a lot of headway on that

460
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: in recent years. A lot needs to still be done.

461
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: But the average island income can only afford one half

462
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: of the average island home price. Right, So you if

463
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: you're a teacher and you're married to a fisherman, you're

464
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: increasingly unable to afford a home in your own community.

465
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 1: And so we're very focused on how do how do

466
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: you transition? How do you help people All the kids

467
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: that left and went to college that came back to

468
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: couldn't afford Yeah, so how do you help people transition

469
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: in But one of the big things that we're doing

470
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: in Maine right now is investing a lot in kind

471
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: of the infrastructure, the processing of seafood, the processing of lobster.

472
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: How do you get enough capacity online to handle you know,

473
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: we we caught million pounds of lobster last year and

474
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: off the coast of Maine. A lot of it's getting

475
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: processed over in Canada, right and so we're moving those

476
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: trying to move those jobs to Maine. It was cheaper

477
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: up there. It was cheaper up there. Without're gonna make

478
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: it cheaper down here. That's right, that's the idea. But

479
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: and that the there aren't many people who want those jobs.

480
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: They don't want them. They don't want to stand in

481
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: the cold and pick lobster. Where are you from. I'm

482
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: actually from Cleveland, Ohio, from the east side of Cleveland.

483
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: And you grew up when you would your dad do.

484
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: My dad's an insurance and my mom was a nurse,

485
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: and Cleveland was a great place to leave. Good to

486
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,239
Speaker 1: leave was like, oh my god, you got me there.

487
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 1: I love Cleveland. Yeah, I've come to love it a

488
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: lot more since I left. I mean, it's interesting it's

489
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 1: become a place since you know, you know, I kind

490
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: of grew up with the you know, the river on

491
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: fire and the you know, the terrible stuff in the

492
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: lake kind Yeah, and it's all it's all turned around.

493
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: I had a hard time growing up there only because

494
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: it felt like anywhere USA. And you left him. Where

495
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: did you go to college? I went out to Colorado,

496
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: Colorado white there because you wanted just the opposite fresh Yeah,

497
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: I mean I had a transformative experience with outward bound.

498
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: I was able to learn mountaineering skills. So what I'm warsmen.

499
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: People like the fresh air and getting out absolutely, So

500
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: I went out west, and you know, but I've always

501
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 1: you know, I thought I was going to run bike shops.

502
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: That's what I thought I was going to do. I

503
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: loved if you were in Colorado now you have a

504
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: marijuana bike shop, I would have. I'll let my brother

505
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: know that's an option now. Ye. So I mean I

506
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: have family out there now, and I loved living out there.

507
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: But again, you know, I've got married my wife's families

508
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: back here in New Hampshire, and you know, we wanted

509
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: to live near family, near the ocean and get to

510
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,479
Speaker 1: know the coast of Maine. You were in Colorado, how

511
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: long I lived in Colorado for ten years. Wow, and

512
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: when what was part of the decision to leave there?

513
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: It sounds whenever I go to Colorado, if you are

514
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: an outdoors type, it's just eden, It's just so beautiful.

515
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: It is when you wanted to leave there, you want

516
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: you want to be near water. I really I left

517
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: because I was looking for real community. I felt like

518
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: the front Range of the Rockies was being over developed

519
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: and exploited and it was horrible. It was a place

520
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: I didn't want to live in the future. For available water,

521
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: for thoughtless development. That's why you mightn't want to stay

522
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: and fight that issue there. No, I I actually once

523
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: I got married, you know, it was really important to

524
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: my wife to be back near her family, which is

525
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 1: New Hampshire. She was in New England. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

526
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: she So you went somewhere before Mayne. It's true. I

527
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: lived in Toronto. I lived in Canada for a while,

528
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: and you know, and I had thought for a long time,

529
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: and you know, this is one of these kind of

530
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: crazy ideas you get. At some point You're just like,

531
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go live in China, and so I had this,

532
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: this is this one I'm leaving up to Troyes. Where

533
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 1: did China. China came into it because I thought I

534
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: wanted to get into our communist Oh no, I thought

535
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: I wanted to get involved in international relations, and I

536
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: thought that would be the place in the future where

537
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: I'd be able to find work, getting involved with potentially

538
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: helping the business community um negotiate opportunities in China. I

539
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: constructed this near it in my head. Yeah, without having

540
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: any experience or resources to back it up. But it's

541
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: just that it was a different from you. I lay

542
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: a bit and I'm thinking, what if I got that

543
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: Those Chinese folks want I get over there and said

544
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: what do I have? So I DVD collection South of

545
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: the Chinese. I went and studied over there as an undergraduate,

546
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: and I got really interested. Instead of international development work.

547
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: What really struck me. I lived in the southwest of China.

548
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: There's twenty seven minority groups living in a province called

549
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 1: Yunnan Province, southwest China. South of the Clouds is what

550
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: the name stands for, and it's gorgeous. It's an incredibly

551
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: environmentally diverse area. It's got everything from the Tibetan Plateau

552
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: down to the Makon River, all on the same all

553
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: in the same province, in one part of an incredible country.

554
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: You know, in the readings I was doing in school,

555
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: is all about, you know, these gigantic international aid or

556
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: organizations and international development organizations. They come in and they

557
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: tell the locals what to do, right, and they take

558
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: stuff from them, and they tell them how to live

559
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: their lives. And you know, and and I thought, people

560
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: talk to each other, we're friends with each other. There's

561
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: a way that money moves from U. S. A. I.

562
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: D or Ford to a very local hill tribe on

563
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: the border of Vietnam in China. I just wanted to

564
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: go see it. I wanted to make some friends, and

565
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: so I spent time exploring this kind of how how

566
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: is the rural economy of China evolving as a result

567
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: of international aid? And it was very I guess probably

568
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: not very surprising. But to me, I what I learned

569
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: was in China, these minority groups were going to be

570
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: wearing their costumes and dancing for time immemorial so that

571
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: tourists could come and watch them and appreciate them. Right,

572
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: And I thought, this is the classic kind of tourism development.

573
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: It's like the disnification of culture. And I also saw

574
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: that it was made possible because at every step of

575
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: the way, relationships were created, deals were cut. It was

576
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: not some invisible hand of international money coming in and

577
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: changing people's out of those people changing their own lives

578
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: in ways that maybe they wanted those consequences. I don't know,

579
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: but I wasn't going to make a value judgment. And

580
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: I thought, well, I could spend the rest of my

581
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: life over here and not change that. I can never

582
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: make a difference. I felt like it was going to

583
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: be impossible to have an impact in this world if

584
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: I spent my time over in China. And I thought,

585
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, and I had met my wife, and I said,

586
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: you know what, let's go home. Let's go back to

587
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: the US and apply this energy and effort to try

588
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: and to make the world a better place at home.

589
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: How long will you in China? Oh? Just for collectively

590
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 1: a year, right, Not a long time, you know, not

591
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: a long time. I was there to get a preliminary

592
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,239
Speaker 1: research visa, and that was before or after Colorado. This

593
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: is after Colorado, so ten years in Colorado. Then this

594
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: little kind of spent a couple of ye I was

595
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: that was part of graduate work. Go back to New England.

596
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: Did you know when you were heading back to New

597
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: England that this environmental based work was what you wanted

598
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: to do? Did you go there gunning I want to

599
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: work in the nonprofit sector. What happened was that colleagues

600
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: of mine in Toronto were at a bar on Prince

601
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: Edward Island when staff from the isl Institute were at

602
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: the same barrin Wow, great things happen in bars, especially

603
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: in remote bars in Canada, and so they they got

604
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: me into the Island instit So you should check out

605
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: this place. These communities are really incredible. The challenges they

606
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: face are remarkably complex, and you know you've got this background,

607
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: even though it's over in China, Like, what about taking

608
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: the thinking about how to how do you do smart

609
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: work to help communities sustain themselves? How do you take

610
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: into account the limits on the environment, and how do

611
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: you take into account the social cohesion of small communities?

612
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: How do you how do you bring those things together,

613
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: those strengths that these places have to help make them

614
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: sustainable for years to come right to me? That was

615
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: an incredibly compelling mission. When I came to Maine, I

616
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: thought I'd left China behind. I thought, there's nothing I'm

617
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: gonna see on the coast of Maine that's anything like China.

618
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: And you know what I found was kind of surprising,

619
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: right that if we wanted to get involved in preserving

620
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: a commercial fishing wharf so that fishermen could always go

621
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: down to see to make a living, and the only

622
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: way to conserve that work wharf was under the existing

623
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: state statutes around land conservation, scenic beauty, cultural importance, you know,

624
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: open space, just farmland, you know, like forest land. Yeah,

625
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: the requirements, but none of them applied to fishing, right that.

626
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: You know, like you figured we on our flag, we

627
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,959
Speaker 1: have fishing, farming, and forestry in Maine, and um farming

628
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: and forestry have these land protections. There's nothing there to

629
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: preserve access to the ocean for fishermen. And so we

630
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: that first piece of land. And I don't want to

631
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: take too much credit here, there were groups, a lot

632
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: of groups that worked on creating language that allowed that

633
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: land to be conserved because of its scenic beauty and

634
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: the only because that was what was available. So the

635
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: esthetic coding written into that initial easement on that wharf.

636
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: What does the architecture need to look like on that wharf.

637
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: What kind of fisheries will be allowed to land there?

638
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you're having to design the future. And I thought,

639
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: oh my god, Like, if we're not careful, we're going

640
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: to have like the disnification of the lobster fishery. You know,

641
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: like guys are gonna have to wear their orange Grundin's

642
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: and have lobster boats with certain lines. Yeah, I mean,

643
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: it just could be. It could be the worst of

644
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: all situations. And so you know, I thought, that's exactly

645
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: what we don't want as an outcome. I don't want

646
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: to see what happened in China happen on the coast

647
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: of main So we we changed this to its constitution

648
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: actually to include fishing as a new category. When I

649
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: think about what the future holds, it's if we if

650
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: we're successful, the coast of Maine will really be a

651
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: beacon for how we could live in this world because

652
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: people will understand how to live within environmental boundaries. They'll

653
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: know how to live relying on each other. Right, They're

654
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: gonna and they'll be and the coast of Maine will

655
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: be connected. It's gonna technology will allow the coast of

656
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: Maine to be sharing what it's learned practical adaptations to

657
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: climate change will be able to be shared easily with

658
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: similar communities anywhere. That to me is the opportunity. For

659
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: Rob Snyder, the current opportunity is to help main fishermen,

660
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: both current and future, move beyond lobster as a source

661
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: of income. He hopes there is money and kelp. He

662
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: says it tastes great by the way, and he is

663
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: encouraging fishermen to add muscles, scallops and oysters to their hall.

664
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin you're listening to. Here's the thing