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Speaker 1: Visit exact sciences dot com to learn more. Hi everyone,

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Speaker 1: I'm Kittie Kuric and this is next question. So everyone,

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Speaker 1: Our guests today used to have an office just three

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Speaker 1: doors down from the Oval One. Pretty cool, right. You

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Speaker 1: may know them from their hilarious Sharpest Attack political podcast

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Speaker 1: pod Save America, Jon Favreau and Tommy Veeter. Apparently their

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Speaker 1: other co host, John Lovett, is somewhere taping the next

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Speaker 1: season of Survivor What Anyway. John and Tommy worked for

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Speaker 1: the Obama administration. John was a speech writer and Tommy

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Speaker 1: shape press coverage of national security issues. Then they started

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Speaker 1: their own company, Crooked Media, after the election of one

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Speaker 1: Donald J. Trump. Now they've got a whole slew of

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Speaker 1: podcasts and are busy trying to keep up with the

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Speaker 1: increasingly insane world of American politics. I've loved talking to

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Speaker 1: these guys about everything, including their notebook called Democracy or Else,

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Speaker 1: how to Save America in ten easy steps for people

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Speaker 1: who are feeling powerless and quite frankly, scared to death.

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Speaker 1: They hope this will be a kind of self help

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Speaker 1: book for getting involved and actually doing something. We talked

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Speaker 1: about so many things, and honestly, when our conversation was over,

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Speaker 1: I still had so many questions I wanted to ask them,

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Speaker 1: but we only had an hour, so I did the

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Speaker 1: best I could. We talked about their book, of course,

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Speaker 1: but also the upcoming debate pre election, jitters, Joe Biden's

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Speaker 1: decision to run for reelection, and Donald Trump's recent conviction.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be a political junkie to enjoy

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Speaker 1: these two. So here's my conversation with Jon Favreau and

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Speaker 1: Tommy veter. Hi, guys, the first question I have for

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Speaker 1: you is, how are you feeling about the election? Slash

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Speaker 1: state of the world? A hopeless, be hopeful, see a

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Speaker 1: combination of the two, Which is it?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I would have to say see,

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Speaker 2: though I'm never really hopeless, I'm more terrified than hopeless,

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Speaker 2: So I definitely feel anxious about the election, anxious about

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Speaker 2: the state of the world and politics, think about it

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Speaker 2: all the time. I think this is going to be

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Speaker 2: an extremely c election, even if you put the polls aside.

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Speaker 2: Last election was extremely close, right, Joe Biden only won

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Speaker 2: by about forty thousand votes across three states, and the

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Speaker 2: politics has become not just nastier people used to say

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Speaker 2: that like ten years ago, just way more extreme and

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Speaker 2: potentially you know, we saw we saw violence on January sixth.

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Speaker 2: So I do think that as a country, we're in

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Speaker 2: a we're in a really bad place politically, and it

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Speaker 2: makes the stakes of these elections so much higher. And

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Speaker 2: you know that's when they're when they're decided on a

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Speaker 2: razor's edge. That makes it a makes it a tough time.

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Speaker 1: Very anxiety producing. How about you, Tommy, It is.

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Speaker 3: Very anxiety producing. I think, you know, I think we're

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Speaker 3: a fifty to fifty country and I am very anxious

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Speaker 3: about the possibility of Trump winning again. I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: on some level, the fact that it's even close is

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Speaker 3: you know, shocking and upsetting given what we saw in

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Speaker 3: January sixth. I do think though, you know, you said

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Speaker 3: the country and the state of the world. When I

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Speaker 3: look around the world, I see far eye parties doing

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Speaker 3: better in places like Germany, in France and other parts

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Speaker 3: of Europe, in part because countries are dealing with some

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Speaker 3: of the same challenges around migration and inflation and broader

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Speaker 3: economic issues that we are. So there is a bit

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Speaker 3: of a bad trend in the US right now. In

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Speaker 3: some parts of the world, that trend is not universal,

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Speaker 3: Like I think we're about to see the Tory Party

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Speaker 3: the Conservatives in England get romped and the Labor Party

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Speaker 3: will likely win those elections on July fourth, So it's

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Speaker 3: a bit of a mixed bag. But yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm just sort of always anxious as basically

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Speaker 3: what the answer is.

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Speaker 1: You touched on why populism is on the rise worldwide,

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Speaker 1: and obviously I think you're right, it's fueled by immigration, inflation,

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Speaker 1: But what else is driving it? What else is driving

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Speaker 1: this pretty dramatic turn to the right in many of.

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Speaker 2: These I think another factor is the way the media

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Speaker 2: environment has changed as well. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: the days just here in the United States, right the

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Speaker 2: days of most people getting their news from a couple

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Speaker 2: different sources allowed everyone to have some semblance of a

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Speaker 2: shared reality and also allowed our elected officials to communicate

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Speaker 2: with wide swaths of the electorate. And so, you know,

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Speaker 2: when a president, president had the bully pulpit, and the

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Speaker 2: bully pulpit was always an advantage. And now I think

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Speaker 2: the bully pulpit just doesn't reach all that many people.

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Speaker 2: And if you're a campaign and you're trying to communicate

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Speaker 2: with your voters, trying to figure out where they are,

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Speaker 2: how they're getting their news, what the best way to

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Speaker 2: reach them is is incredibly difficult. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: people are getting their news from places where they're either

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Speaker 2: consuming misinformation or they're just consuming sort of a type

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Speaker 2: of content that makes them cynical and distrustful of institutions.

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Speaker 1: And it makes them more deeply entrenched in their point

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Speaker 1: of view. As a friend of mine says, people are

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Speaker 1: getting affirmation instead of information, so it just makes them

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Speaker 1: dig in even more.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, I also think, you know, the classic

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Speaker 3: populism is kind of we the in group are getting

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Speaker 3: screwed by this out group, so therefore we're going to

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Speaker 3: harm the out group. And also we're going to expand

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Speaker 3: social services for the people who are part of the

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Speaker 3: in group, and I think that's a pretty effective recipe.

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Speaker 3: But we're also seeing in places like Argentina. They recently

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Speaker 3: elected a guy named Javier Mile and he would show

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Speaker 3: us so imagine in your mind what a stunt double

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Speaker 3: for a Wolverine movie looks like, and it's this guy.

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Speaker 3: And he would show up to campaign events with a

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Speaker 3: literal chainsaw and say this is what I'm going to

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Speaker 3: do to the system. And I think what he represents

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Speaker 3: is he calls himself an anarcho capitalist. He is basically

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Speaker 3: trying to get Argentina's an inflation problem under control by

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Speaker 3: slashing the government in half. And what he represents, though,

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Speaker 3: is a brand of politics that says the system is broken,

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Speaker 3: it is irreparably damaged, it is screwing you, so let's

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Speaker 3: burn it down. And I think that's the other piece

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Speaker 3: of populism you're seeing.

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Speaker 2: Also. I remember in twenty twelve when we were working

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Speaker 2: on a couple of speeches for President Obama ahead of

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Speaker 2: his reelection against Mitt Romney, and we did this big

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Speaker 2: speech on inequality, economic inequality, and Obama had decided that

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Speaker 2: he wanted to sort of define the election around this yawning,

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Speaker 2: growing gap between the rich and everyone else. And one

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Speaker 2: of the arguments he made in the speech, and I

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Speaker 2: hadn't really thought about it until then, is he said,

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Speaker 2: you know, economic inequality makes democracy so much harder because

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Speaker 2: if people feel like the system is not working for them,

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Speaker 2: that the government is not working for them, not fighting

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Speaker 2: for them, that it's only taking care of the rich

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Speaker 2: and the powerful, like they're not going to have faith

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Speaker 2: in the system. And that was twenty twelve. And if you've,

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Speaker 2: if we've seen everything that's happened over the last decade

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Speaker 2: or so, you know that that has only has only

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Speaker 2: gotten more extreme.

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Speaker 1: I talked about that when I did Bill Maher's podcast

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Speaker 1: and got absolutely eviscerated by the right because I said

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Speaker 1: that income at equality fuels a lot of class resentment,

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Speaker 1: and that you know, all these uber rich people are

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Speaker 1: getting richer and richer, and then you have other people

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Speaker 1: who don't have four hundred dollars to pay in the

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Speaker 1: event of an emergency. That creates a lot of class resentment,

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Speaker 1: anti elitism and anti intellectualism, just sort of anti everything, honestly,

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Speaker 1: And I said that, you know, it's a terrible feeling,

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Speaker 1: corrosive feeling to feel jealous and resentful. I have felt

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Speaker 1: that before. I remember being in my twenties and seeing

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Speaker 1: people in my neighborhood in Atlanta driving around in nice cars,

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Speaker 1: and I lived in a one bedroom apartment, and I

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Speaker 1: really thought, I'm never going to be able to afford

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Speaker 1: a nice home and a nice car. And the way

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Speaker 1: that made you feel it was just like it was

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Speaker 1: resentment slash anger and anyway, the right wing media said,

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Speaker 1: I said Trump voters were jealous and anti intellectual, and

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Speaker 1: actually I was trying to be empathetic with people who

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Speaker 1: felt like the system wasn't working for them, who had

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Speaker 1: been left out of the American dream, who were in

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Speaker 1: these hollowed out American cities where you know, the industrial

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Speaker 1: aspect of where they lived was could put so anyway.

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Speaker 2: Well, in the entire project of the right under Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump has been to seize on that resentment that you're

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Speaker 2: describing and tried to direct it away from you know,

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Speaker 2: wealthy corporations and CEOs and towards sort of the cultural

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Speaker 2: elite and the political elite.

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Speaker 1: And I guess that's why they were all kind of

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Speaker 1: target me when I tried to make that point.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, And look, it's an old playbook, right,

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Speaker 2: like Nixon did this back in the early seventies, but

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Speaker 2: I think it has I think the differences today. Also,

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Speaker 2: you know you were talking about having that feeling when

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Speaker 2: you were in your neighborhood. Well, now social media has

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Speaker 2: made it so that like wealth and power and status

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Speaker 2: is in everyone's face all the time. And so I

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Speaker 2: think it's easier to gin up that kind of resentment

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Speaker 2: in this media environment with social media than it was

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Speaker 2: even you know, years ago.

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Speaker 3: It's so confusing because right, I mean we've watched over

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Speaker 3: the last couple of weeks, You've seen this sort of

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Speaker 3: pr effort by Elon Musk to get shareholders at Tesla

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Speaker 3: to vote in favor of giving him I think it

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Speaker 3: was a forty six billion dollar pay package, and he

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Speaker 3: was rallying people behind this. I'm thinking to myself, like,

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Speaker 3: why does it Why are people supporting this?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Because you're right, I think I heard this morning, I

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Speaker 3: can't remember the source that savings rates were at historic

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Speaker 3: lows for Americans. So people are actually you know, really

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Speaker 3: challenging unge by inflation, and so Republicans, I think are

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Speaker 3: very good at identifying the problem the unfair trade deals,

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Speaker 3: the way they've harmed people talking about income inequality, people

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Speaker 3: like Trump of Demagoguna A.

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Speaker 2: Jd.

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Speaker 3: Vance is good at talking about a Republican from Ohio,

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Speaker 3: but the solutions they put forward make things worse. For example,

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Speaker 3: the twenty seventeen Republican tax cut cut Big Pharma's taxes

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Speaker 3: by more than forty percent. So from twenty fourteen to

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Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, the industry paid an effective tax rate of

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Speaker 3: nineteen point six percent on average. In twenty nineteen to

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty, it paid just eleven point six percent. That's

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Speaker 3: what the Trump agenda gets you, a huge tax cut

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Speaker 3: for big pharma. This was data according to Ron Wyden's

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Speaker 3: Senate Finance Committee.

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Speaker 1: But why is there such a disconnect? Why do people think,

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Speaker 1: I mean, gosh, this is what's left a lot of

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Speaker 1: people scratching their heads ever since twenty sixteen. Why do

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Speaker 1: people think that Donald Trump is going to make their

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Speaker 1: lives better? It is confounding to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what I have come to think is is for

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Speaker 2: a lot of voters, they don't think that either party

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Speaker 2: or any politician is going to necessarily make their lives better,

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Speaker 2: and so what they see in Donald Trump is someone

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Speaker 2: who is just going to smash the system. And that

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Speaker 2: makes them feel good, right, because it like, well, at

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Speaker 2: least he's gonna at least he's my guy. He's going

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Speaker 2: to like fight for me where he can. And I

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily expect him to help me. But you know,

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Speaker 2: he's also, as Tommy was saying, he's very good at

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Speaker 2: blaming others. Right. And so if Donald Trump tells you, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, you would you'd be making more and you

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Speaker 2: we'd have more jobs. If we just got rid of

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Speaker 2: all these undocumented immigrants, then your life would be better.

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Speaker 2: If we just cleaned up the crime and we got

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Speaker 2: tough and let the police get tough on crime in

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Speaker 2: these cities, your life would be better. And you know,

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Speaker 2: unlike even Mitt Romney or the Republicans of yesteryear, Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump doesn't talk a lot about giving huge tax cuts

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Speaker 2: to corporations, giving huge tax cuts to the wealthy. It's

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Speaker 2: not publicly, not publicly, right, No, that's all in their

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Speaker 2: agenda fundraisers. Yeah, but they have you know, Trump has

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Speaker 2: taught most of the Republican Party to sort of hide

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Speaker 2: the economic agenda that is not very popular with most

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Speaker 2: people in this country, and to really lean on sort

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Speaker 2: of the cultural resentment, the racial resentment, the xenophobia that

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Speaker 2: does unfortunately work with a lot of you know, working

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Speaker 2: class and middle class people of all races. By the way,

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Speaker 2: in this country.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about the media environment

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Speaker 1: just because things have changed so dramatically since when I

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Speaker 1: got into TV news, and now it is so fragmented,

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Speaker 1: so fractured, and so partisan, right, a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things you point out in your

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Speaker 1: new book called Democracy or Else, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the other things in your book in a moment,

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Speaker 1: is that the good old days weren't that good actually,

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Speaker 1: when you had sort of three white males on an

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Speaker 1: evening use cast telling the same story basically the same way,

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Speaker 1: that kept a lot of diverse voices from having a platform.

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Speaker 1: It was all sort of through that patriarchal lens, honestly,

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Speaker 1: because all the leadership in these newsrooms, because I worked

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Speaker 1: in them, were male and white men. And so while

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Speaker 1: we had a certain understanding and I think a communal

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Speaker 1: agreement of what was a fact and what wasn't, there

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Speaker 1: were some drawbacks to that system. But gosh, you guys,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's having said all that better than

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Speaker 1: what we have today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there was also the period I think it

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Speaker 3: was before what nineteen eighty seven, when the Fairness Doctrine

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Speaker 3: was in effect, which basically said, if you're going to

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Speaker 3: talk about anti abortion the position, you know, the pro

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Speaker 3: life position, you also had to talk about pro choice.

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Speaker 3: And I think when Reagan got rid of the Fairness Doctrine,

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Speaker 3: it ushered in people like Rush Limbaugh who demonstrate that

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Speaker 3: partisan you know, conservative radio was not only an incredibly

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Speaker 3: powerful political tool, but it was incredibly profitable. And then

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Speaker 3: we saw Fox News and quickly it was kind of

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Speaker 3: the wild Blube West. So I think you're exactly right that,

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Speaker 3: you know, the old days. Sometimes we look back at

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Speaker 3: the old days with sort of this halcyon glare. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I hear you too fondly. But you know, I think

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Speaker 3: you're right that it was better than the kind of

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Speaker 3: wild wild West that they're seeing at the moment where,

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Speaker 3: you know, for the Biden campaign, you know, they have

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Speaker 3: to deal with basically every single day there's some you know,

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Speaker 3: deceptively edited video of Joe Biden going viral on a platform.

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Speaker 3: But you know, on top of that, it's not just

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Speaker 3: random users on Twitter pushing the stuff around. It's like

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Speaker 3: the New York Post taking a video released by the

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Speaker 3: RNCs research shop, further editing it to make it look

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Speaker 3: even worse and then posting it on their own. So

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Speaker 3: it's it's incredibly it's brutal out there.

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Speaker 1: I mean it is brutal.

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Speaker 2: The promise of like the technological advancements that gave us

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Speaker 2: the Internet and social media and even you know, more

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Speaker 2: television stations, right, it's like more choice was good. More voices,

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Speaker 2: especially a diversity of voices really important, really good. Completely

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Speaker 2: eliminating all gatekeepers and having so many different sources of

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Speaker 2: news that we don't have no more shared sense of reality,

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Speaker 2: or the idea that any single person who has a

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Speaker 2: Twitter account, like their opinion now on something is going

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Speaker 2: to be, you know, just as valid as anyone else's opinion, right,

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Speaker 2: Like we've just that the pendulum has swung too far.

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Speaker 1: And also John, I think this anti expertise. You know,

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Speaker 1: there was a book written about that I think of

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Speaker 1: maybe three or four years ago, that people no longer

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Speaker 1: respect experts, which honestly, I don't understand that why someone

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Speaker 1: would dismiss someone who studied something, understood something, understood the

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Speaker 1: intricacies of the issue every which way, and yet they're

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Speaker 1: not respected. I don't get that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the other thing is a lot of people

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Speaker 2: then fancy themselves experts who aren't really experts. And so

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Speaker 2: back to your point about sort of, you know, affirming

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Speaker 2: your own beliefs, right, So you can now always find

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Speaker 2: a quote unquote expert to affirm a belief that you

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Speaker 2: have about something, even if that person is not really

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Speaker 2: an expert in that area, because their Twitter bio says whatever,

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Speaker 2: pretends that there's some they have a doctorate in something,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly they're going on and on about you know,

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Speaker 2: COVID and virology and you're like, well, you've never actually

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Speaker 2: studied that, but you're calling yourself a doctor in Twitter.

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Speaker 2: And so it's hard for people, I think, to figure

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Speaker 2: out who the real experts are and who they can trust.

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Speaker 2: And that's a that's I mean, as we saw during

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Speaker 2: the pandemic, that's a real problem.

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Speaker 3: And it's also it's a problem that seems sort of

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Speaker 3: unique to political discourse or at least news discussions generally.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like people will listen to Robert F. Kennedy's

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Speaker 3: junior or Aaron Rodgers the quarterback for the New York Jets.

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Speaker 3: Talk about vaccines, but imagine if you walked into a

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Speaker 3: room you're about to get surgery, and there's Aaron Rodgers

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Speaker 3: scrubbing in, like, I don't know that I'm going I'm

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Speaker 3: not going through with that, right, I think most people

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Speaker 3: are walking out. So it's a bizarre thing that we

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Speaker 3: just sort of everyone should have a voice, And I

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Speaker 3: think that's wonderful. But you're right that all voices shouldn't

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Speaker 3: be weighted equally, right.

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Speaker 1: I always say the great thing about social media is

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Speaker 1: everyone has a voice. The worst thing about social media

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Speaker 1: is that everyone has for us good? Right? Yeah, after

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Speaker 1: this break democracy or else? The new book from Tommy

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Speaker 1: and the Two Johns, why did they write it? I'll

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Speaker 1: ask them? What if there were a way to reduce

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Speaker 1: cancer deaths by half in the next twenty five years.

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Speaker 1: What if it were the future our children, our loved ones,

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Speaker 1: our world could actually wake up to? This is the

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Speaker 1: future Exact Sciences works toward every day because they believe

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Speaker 1: it's possible. Exact Sciences is a dedicated team of cancer

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Speaker 1: fighters united by a purpose to help eradicate cancer by

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Speaker 1: preventing it, detecting it, earlier and guiding personalized treatment. They

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Speaker 1: bring together the best in visionary thinking and scientific rigor

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Speaker 1: to create tests, including COLI GUARD and Achotype DX that

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Speaker 1: inspire life changing action. Visit Exactsciences dot com to learn more.

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Speaker 1: We're back with Tommy Veeter and Jon Favreau. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about your book and then I want to ask you

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Speaker 1: about some other current affairs issues right now. But why

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Speaker 1: did you guys write this democh Receive or Else book?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean for anyone who's worried about the country,

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Speaker 2: wants to get involved in this election and hopefully future elections,

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Speaker 2: but doesn't know where to begin or how to be

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Speaker 2: most useful. We wrote this to basically say it's easier

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Speaker 2: than you think, and it doesn't have to be terrifying.

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Speaker 2: It can actually be a lot of fun. And really

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Speaker 2: it's the same thing that let us to start pod

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Speaker 2: Save America way back when in twenty seventeen in Crooket

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Speaker 2: Media is after Donald Trump won. You know, we had

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Speaker 2: so many people saying to us, like, what do we do?

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Speaker 2: This is bad, I don't know how to get involved,

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Speaker 2: or I haven't really paid attention to politics before this,

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Speaker 2: and I want to help, but I don't know how.

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Speaker 2: And you know, over the years of doing this podcast

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Speaker 2: and hosting pot Save America and then sort of starting

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Speaker 2: Vote Save America, which is sort of our organizing arm

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Speaker 2: where we help people get involved in politics and just

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Speaker 2: building crooked media, you know, we've learned a lot about

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Speaker 2: what it takes to get involved in politics, how useful

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Speaker 2: it is to be involved in politics, not just from

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Speaker 2: our own experiences before this, as you know, white House

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Speaker 2: staffers and campaign staffers, but just from talking to so

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Speaker 2: many smart people through pods of America. So this book

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Speaker 2: was our attempt to like put all of those lessons

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Speaker 2: on paper, both from us and from a lot of

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Speaker 2: the really smart people we've talked to over the years.

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Speaker 3: And also one of the benefits of getting a little

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Speaker 3: older is we realize now how lucky we were to

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Speaker 3: get to work for Barack Obama on that campaign in

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Speaker 3: that moment, because politics then it felt hopeful, it's felt inspiring,

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Speaker 3: it felt historic, right we were working for the first

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Speaker 3: black man to become president in this country. In the

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Speaker 3: last eight years has been such a slug. It's so

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Speaker 3: terrible every day and scary, and people are anxious, and

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Speaker 3: we wanted to remind folks that you know what, Like,

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Speaker 3: first of all, politics doesn't not have to be zero sum.

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Speaker 3: You can do a little bit or you can do

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Speaker 3: a lot.

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Speaker 2: It's up to you.

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Speaker 3: But it all matters. But also it can be fun,

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Speaker 3: it can be hopeful. The book is very funny. There's

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Speaker 3: incredibly stupid illustrations.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, they're funny illustration, right, And I think you're right,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of It is a funny book, but about

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Speaker 1: a very serious topic. And I just I just wonder

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Speaker 1: you guys, are you preaching to the choir? With all

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Speaker 1: due respect, I mean, I love Pots of America, I

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Speaker 1: love crooked media. I think what you all have built

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Speaker 1: is just extraordinary. And yet who is your audience for

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Speaker 1: this book?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, we are preaching to our choir,

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Speaker 2: but what we're preaching to them is like the only

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Speaker 2: way to really get out of this mess, the only

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Speaker 2: way to have democracy function is to actually go out

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Speaker 2: there and persuade people and how and go change minds.

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Speaker 2: Because we know a lot of people who are going

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Speaker 2: to buy this book are already liberals or Democrats, or

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Speaker 2: at least just people who don't want Donald Trump to

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Speaker 2: be president. But I do think people are always looking

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Speaker 2: for shortcuts. And you know, I think in the first

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Speaker 2: chapter we talk about sort of like how tough our

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Speaker 2: democratic system is to change, and in many ways it

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Speaker 2: was built that way, and so you know, we'll have

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Speaker 2: people say to us, can't we just get rid of

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Speaker 2: the Senate because the Senate's not fair? Or can't we

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Speaker 2: just get rid of the electoral college and we want

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Speaker 2: it to you know, in that chapter, show people how

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Speaker 2: difficult it is to change the system and where it's

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Speaker 2: easier to make progress and where it's more difficult to

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Speaker 2: make progress. But what it all comes down to is

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Speaker 2: there is no changing the system unless we win elections.

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Speaker 2: And there is no winning elections unless we all go

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Speaker 2: out there and have conversations with people who do not

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Speaker 2: agree with us, who aren't sure if they're going to

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Speaker 2: vote or who they're going to vote for, and we

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Speaker 2: have to change their minds. And changing their minds is

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Speaker 2: not you know what you see happening on social media

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Speaker 2: every day. It's not. Politics is not about just congratulating

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Speaker 2: ourselves about how right we are. Politics is about like

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Speaker 2: meeting other people where they are and sort of trying

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Speaker 2: to bring them along by changing their minds. They're at

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Speaker 2: least doing our best to change their minds.

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Speaker 1: It's hard. I mean, I want to talk about the

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Speaker 1: persuadables because I think there is this wide swath of

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Speaker 1: the American electorate who aren't on the extremes. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you read Jonathan Height's article on The Atlantic about why

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Speaker 1: the last ten years have been uniquely stupid, And it's

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Speaker 1: really about the loudest voices that are dominating social media

434
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: that I think give people a complete misrepresentation of the

435
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: way people are feeling about a whole variety of issues.

436
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: But I was with somebody I did a breast cancer

437
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: walk and a very nice woman was walking and she said,

438
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, I think we probably disagree politically, but I

439
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 1: really appreciate your cancer advocacy work. And I said, thank

440
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: you so much. And I'm curious, you know why you

441
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: feel strongly about supporting you know who you're supporting. I

442
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 1: try to kind of keep it friendly and nice, And

443
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: I said, because you know, it's it really upsets me

444
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: that people insist the election was rigged. And sixty two

445
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: you guys can correct me if I'm wrong. Sixty two

446
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: courts have dismissed cases that have alleged that and if

447
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: there was real evidence beyond sort of the typical, you know,

448
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: screw ups that happened that don't necessarily affect the outcome.

449
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: Don't you think our judicial system would have dealt with that?

450
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: And she said, I saw videos of women stuffing ballot boxes,

451
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: and I said, I don't think those were necessarily accurate. Well,

452
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: I don't really trust the judicial system, and you know,

453
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: so where do you go from there? It's very hard,

454
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: But I think that individual was in a group that

455
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: would not be considered part of the persuadables, right.

456
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think we're the Democratic side

457
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: of this debate has a harder job because we believe

458
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 3: in institutions, while Republicans are able to so distrust in

459
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 3: those institutions and it helps their argument that, for example,

460
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty election was stolen. So there's a really long,

461
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 3: difficult challenge ahead of all of us of restoring people's

462
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 3: faith in politics, for storing people's faith in institutions, and

463
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 3: part of that is going to be delivering on the

464
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: big challenges that people are pissed about. And so, you know,

465
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: the Affordable Care Act did an enormous amount of good.

466
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: Forty million people have healthcare because of it, but costs

467
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 3: are still way too high, you know, and it didn't

468
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 3: help everybody. So it's just it's a long game. But

469
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 3: you know, the other thing I think we've learned over

470
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 3: many years in politics, Katie, is that voters are really weird.

471
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 3: When you talk to voters, they do not line up

472
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 3: on traditional lines that you hear about in the press.

473
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: I watched there was a vote, remember the uncommitted vote

474
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 3: in Michigan, where in their Democratic primary you had a

475
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 3: bunch of people voting uncommitted instead of for Joe Biden

476
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 3: to protest as God's vote. I watched a focus group

477
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: of I think eight or ten Democrats who voted uncommitted,

478
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 3: and one of the people in this focus group said

479
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 3: she voted on admitted because Joe Biden hadn't done enough

480
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 3: to help Israel. And I thought to myself, huh, you

481
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 3: did not get the assignment this is. But you know, voters,

482
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 3: they're weird. The quirky opinions and different things drive them.

483
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 3: And you can be poisoned by bad information, but you know,

484
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 3: have good intentions.

485
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: Well, And to that point, I think if you're sitting

486
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: down with someone and you were trying to convince them.

487
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: You don't start by bringing up the twenty twenty election

488
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 2: and trying to argue them out of their belief that

489
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 2: it was stolen. F I don't know necessarily that that

490
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 2: would get you that far, but you could say, Okay,

491
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 2: what do you care about? What are you worried about

492
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: right now? What issues are top of mind for you?

493
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 2: And you know, we I think we have a story

494
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: in the book about this organizer in Pennsylvania. Her name

495
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: was Angela Aldus and she was in Westmoreland County in Pennsylvania.

496
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 2: It's very conservative and she's very liberal. And this was

497
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen and she started knocking on doors and

498
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: it was a lot of Trump voters and one of

499
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 2: the one woman opened the door and she was a

500
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: Trump voter too, And it's stead of trying to like

501
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: yell at her about politics, she was like, well, what

502
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 2: are you worried about? You know, what do you what

503
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: do you care about? And she's like, well, I'm really

504
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: upset about the high cost of my prescriptions. And Angela

505
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: was like, well, you know, I have I have MS

506
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 2: and like I've had that worry too, And they both

507
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 2: start talking about the drug companies and prescriptions stuff like that,

508
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: and they started coming to this understanding about how, like

509
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: politicians need to do a better job of making sure

510
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: that healthcare is cheaper and more people have access to it.

511
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: And the Trump supporter might not have known necessarily that

512
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: that was a more liberal democratic position, but they had

513
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: this good conversation about it, and that moved her closer

514
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: to the direction that Angela wanted to go in, and

515
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: like did she.

516
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. I mean, that was a really stupid

517
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: way for me to broach the topic. But we were

518
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: also on a three point two mile walk and I

519
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: didn't have that much shop.

520
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: Well, look, when someone brings it up to you, it's

521
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: not like you can be like, eh, like you're gonna

522
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: You're gonna end up talking about it, you know, But.

523
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: I think you're right. Tell me what you're worried about,

524
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: tell me what issue you care about, and how you're

525
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: feeling about your situation. I think you're right. That's a

526
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: much better way. And you know, one of the things

527
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: you all point out in your book is that we're

528
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: not as polarized as we think we are. You have

529
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: some statistics in the book, and I think they bear repeating.

530
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety six, twenty seven percent of people supported

531
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: gay marriage. In twenty twenty three, seventy one percent fifty

532
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: nine percent of post the overturning of Roe Vweight eighty

533
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: A pose a federal abortion ban. A Fox News poll

534
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: found that eighty percent of people favor background checks on

535
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: gun purchases, making twenty one the minimum age to purchase

536
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: a gun. Yes, And I remember I did a documentary

537
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: on gun violence and reducing gun violence, and I think

538
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: was seventy four percent of NRA members favor stricter gun laws.

539
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: So why is it so hard to address these issues

540
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: and to bring people who are in the middle the

541
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: you know, center left or center right, and form a

542
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: coalition of these people.

543
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: I mean, I think at the moment, the challenge on

544
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 3: gun rights, for example, or gun control is you know

545
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 3: of the numbers you just read which shows overwhelming majorities

546
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 3: in this country want more sensible gun control policies in place,

547
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: and then we have a Supreme Court that just voted

548
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 3: against a very limited effort by Donald Trump to ban

549
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: a tool that turns semi automatic rifles into machine guns,

550
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 3: bump stocks, you know what I mean? And so the

551
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 3: disconnect between what people want and what our judges or

552
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 3: elected officials are willing to let happen is just yawning.

553
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 3: And so what that does is it makes people on

554
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 3: the left whur fighting for sensible gun laws. They feel

555
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: demoralized and depressed and they stop trying. And you have

556
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: you know, people on the right or are you insulated

557
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: from the Republicans are insulated from these policies. So, I

558
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 3: mean this is part of the broader challenge that Democrats face,

559
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: which is we are not delivering on the things people

560
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 3: care about in large part in this case because of

561
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: the Republicans, and Republicans are able to harness that cynicism

562
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: to keep voters at home.

563
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I remember in the Obama administration when

564
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: we tried to pass background checks and the two senators

565
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: that ended up coming up with a compromise on background

566
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: checks were Joe Manchin but no One's idea of a

567
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: liberal and Pat Toomey, conservative senator from Pennsylvania. And they

568
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: come up with this compromise on background checks, and the

569
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: Republicans in Congress still voted down, they still blocked it.

570
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: And I remember Obama at the time thinking like if

571
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: we can't we can't pass this. After the tragedies and

572
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: the mass shootings that we have seen, and that was

573
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: back then, and we can't pass a common sense, extremely

574
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: popular proposal that is and put forth by a conservative

575
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: Republican senator and a very conservative Democrat from West Virginia. Like,

576
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: I don't know how we're going to get this done.

577
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: But a lot of voters aren't paying attention to everything

578
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: that happens in Washington and all the machinations. So for

579
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 2: people who really want something done on guns, what do

580
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: they think? They think? Oh, Washington failed again and both

581
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: parties couldn't figure it out, even though it was a

582
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,479
Speaker 2: bipersonal compromise, right, both parties couldn't figure it out, and

583
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: Obama couldn't get it done. And so it's I'm not

584
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: going to vote on that issue because no one's going

585
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: to get it done.

586
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: You voters and polls today who blame Joe Biden for

587
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: Rovers's Wade being overturned, right, right? Yeah, A lot of

588
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: folks just aren't aren't paying attention. They don't really know

589
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 3: what's happening. They just know they're pissed at the outcome.

590
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: Gosh, I mean, there's a couple of things that come

591
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: to mind with that I mean, why are people so

592
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: ignorant about some of this stuff? Is it because we

593
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: no longer teach civics? Is it because the information they're

594
00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: getting is so twisted and manipulated and full of falsehoods

595
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: that people don't know which way is up and what

596
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: is real?

597
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's a couple things, and I

598
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: think it's sort of a vicious cycle that it reinforces itself,

599
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: which is people are busy. They it's not everyone's job

600
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: to pay close attention to politics. People are not political

601
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 2: junkies like we are, and they're working very hard at

602
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: their jobs to raise their families, and so they don't

603
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: have a lot of time to pay attention. And then

604
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: when they do pay attention, when they do tune into politics,

605
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: what do they see on television? Well, they see people

606
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: yelling at each other, they see talking heads going back before,

607
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: they see like a bunch of polling, They see misinformation

608
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: on social media. They don't know who to believe, and

609
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: so they're like, I don't know, I'm out, like I

610
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: don't need to pay attention to this. I don't know

611
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: what to believe anymore. It all seems like noise to me.

612
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: So I'm just gonna live my life and that's that.

613
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: So I do think that's why people I don't think

614
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: it's necessary that people like are willfully ignorant, and I

615
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: think people, you know, that's that's one of the challenges, right,

616
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 2: You can voters. You hear a lot of people in

617
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 2: politics how voters are stupid or they should know that

618
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 2: Trump is bad, or like, you know what people are.

619
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: It's it's not it's everyone's job to fulfill the obligations

620
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 2: of citizenship, but it's not everyone's job to like sort

621
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: through just the reams of information out there and news

622
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: sources and figure out what's true and what's not.

623
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: So how do you fix it?

624
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, look, I think that one thing you're

625
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: going to see in this election is and when you

626
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: talk to organizers and campaign staffers like it. There's a

627
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: there's a big emphasis now on something called relational organizing,

628
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: where you are not just calling strangers and knocking on

629
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: strangers doors, but you're really reaching out to all the

630
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: people in your social network and trying to persuade them,

631
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: or people in your neighborhood. People you get to know

632
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: and then you have these conversations and this is not

633
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: deep canvassing where the conversations we were just talking about,

634
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: where you don't just show up at someone's door with

635
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: a script given to you by a campaign. You kind

636
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 2: of have like a fifteen to twenty minute conversation about

637
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: what do you care about, what issues are on your mind.

638
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 2: And because voters don't have as much trust in institutions,

639
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 2: whether they be campaigns, the media, government, they do have

640
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: trust in the people that they know, and so those

641
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 2: people that the people that they know end up being

642
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: the most trusted and persuasive messengers or people that you

643
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: can have a conversation with that you can see face

644
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: to face. So I do think one side effect of

645
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 2: the media environment becoming so fractured and polarized is that

646
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 2: people are going back to these face to face conversations

647
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: with people in their local community. And I do think

648
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: that's where, like, if we're going to fix politics, it

649
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: has to start there.

650
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: Up next, how will President Biden fair in the upcoming

651
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: debate with Donald Trump? Have some thoughts. If you want

652
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: to get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the

653
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: news and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture,

654
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Up call by

655
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: going to Katiecuric dot com. Back to my conversation with

656
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: Jon Favreau and Tommy Veeter.

657
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 3: I mean, I think John's right on like the big

658
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 3: picture need I mean, just to slice it a little narrower,

659
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: like you know, you asked about sort of why you

660
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: know people are not well informed or why they're turned

661
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: off by politics, and you know, it's often the case

662
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 3: that people tune in to a campaign at big moments,

663
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: like a debate, and let's just be honest, like those

664
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 3: big moments have gotten terrible. I was reading a report

665
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: today by a group of researchers at Princeton that analyzed

666
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 3: all the debates from two thousand and four until today.

667
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 3: God bless those Bomore Passwards who had to watch all

668
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 3: these They found the cross talk of debates just candid's

669
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 3: yelling over each other. It jumped from one instance in

670
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: the first Bush versus Carry debate in two thousand and

671
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: four to seventy six instances in the first Biden versus

672
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: Trump debate in twenty twenty. If you don't care about

673
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 3: politics and you're turning on that debate brying like, oh

674
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 3: who am I going to vote for? And that disaster

675
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 3: is what you see. You're turning the channel, You're going

676
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 3: to ESPN, and you're like, I'm not voting.

677
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 1: It's so true. It's such a shit show. Which brings

678
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: me to the upcoming debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden.

679
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: Are you terrified? Are you anxious about that? I know

680
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: they are going to turn off the mics, They're going

681
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: to set in to motion certain things that will hopefully

682
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: keep it more civil. But what do you guys think?

683
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: Are completely terrified?

684
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: Completely terrified? Yeah, and listen, we went to you.

685
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: I don't know how you can. I don't know how

686
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 2: you wouldn't be It's a big deal.

687
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: What does that say about the Democratic presidential candidate? If

688
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: you're so terrified?

689
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 3: I mean, listen, we just saw president and had an

690
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 3: event out here in Los Angeles, and he had just

691
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 3: made two trips to Europe in the last like, you know,

692
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 3: in less than a week, and candidly, he looked exhausted,

693
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 3: and it was a little bit dispiriting to walk out

694
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 3: of there and be like, oh boy, you know, like

695
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 3: there's not a lot of pep in his step. He

696
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 3: wasn't sort of there wasn't a clear message coming out

697
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 3: of that event, and I was a fundraiser, like it's fine.

698
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 3: You know, the people weren't there to be persuaded. They

699
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 3: were there because they gave money. But he needs to

700
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 3: be on his game, and he needs a moment's debate

701
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: like he had at the State of the Union where

702
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: he came out feisty and was going back and forth

703
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 3: with Republicans and making a point. And so he needs

704
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 3: to be sharpen on his game in that sense. And

705
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 3: then from a messaging perspective, Joe Biden needs to be

706
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 3: painting a picture of what he would do with four

707
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 3: more years and explaining to people that he understands that

708
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 3: he got a lot done, but there's still he understands

709
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 3: that they're so frustrated, and he hears them, and this

710
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 3: is how he's going to work on it. And this

711
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 3: is why Donald Trump would not actually help the things

712
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 3: that they're worried about, because this is a man who

713
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: only cares about himself, his rich friends, his donors, and

714
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 3: keeping his ass at a prison.

715
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: John.

716
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: I think Joe Biden is a good, decent human being.

717
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: I think he's been a great president. I don't think

718
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 2: he's ever been an excellent communicator, and I think that

719
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 2: as he's aged. Like, I think his mental acuity is sharp,

720
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: you know, and I've known that from like just personal

721
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: experiences with them and following him, but I think it

722
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: has I think the one thing that age has done

723
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 2: is it sort of softened his voice. Right, He's shuffling

724
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 2: a little more because of his he's got some back issues.

725
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: And yeah, like you can sit there and argue with

726
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: the media about showing this clip or that clip, and

727
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: but like this is how he's going to come off

728
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: to people. And like Tommy said, there are these moments

729
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 2: where he has appeared very energetic and feisty and he

730
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: needs to needs to show that at the debate. But also,

731
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: like I think the more important thing for all of

732
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 2: us is, like Joe Biden has made the decision that

733
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: Joe Biden is running again. Right, that was Joe Biden's decision,

734
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: And you know that's where we are and for the rest.

735
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: But I can I interrupt your ask where you disappointed

736
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: that he wanted to run again and that he at

737
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 1: eighty one when he said during the campaign in twenty

738
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: twenty he was going to be the bridge to a

739
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: new generation of leadership with Corey Booker, Kamala Harrison Gretchen

740
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: Whitmer at his side that the bridge was eight years

741
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: instead of four.

742
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it turned out to be a longer bridge.

743
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: Turned out to be the Bay bridget.

744
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: I have really I've tried to put myself in Joe

745
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 2: biden shoes making that decision, And I do think that

746
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 2: he looked around at the rest of the field, He

747
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 2: looked around at the other possible candidates and said to himself, like,

748
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: I think I am better positioned to beat Donald Trump

749
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 2: because I did once before than any of these other

750
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: politicians who have not been tested nationally and have not

751
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: been under the tough spotlight of a national campaign. And

752
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: if I step aside and say, okay, let's have an

753
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: open primary now, and one of these people wins the

754
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 2: primary and then loses to Donald Trump, and I think

755
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: that I could have done a better job, Like I

756
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: think it's a it was a tough call, Like it

757
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: would have been a tough call for me.

758
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: Conversely, though, what if he loses to Donald Trump and

759
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 1: there goes his legacy?

760
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 2: Yep, you know, and I think he is I'm sure

761
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 2: he has weighed that as well, you know. And it's

762
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: it's just where I've ended up is that's all his decision,

763
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: and the rest of us need to figure out how

764
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 2: to tell voters that, yes, he appears older, and maybe

765
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 2: he's not the best communicator, but he's been a damn

766
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 2: good president. He has fought really hard for regular Americans

767
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: and not just the wealthy or people who are extremely

768
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: loyal to him like Donald Trump, and Donald Trump is

769
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 2: a is a threat to the country, is a threat

770
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: to democracy for about just democrats, threat to our ability

771
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: to make decisions about who governs us. And so, whatever

772
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 2: your qualms about Joe Biden, whatever your disappointments, whatever you know,

773
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: we cannot go down the road of another Trump presidency

774
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: because it will be much more extreme and worse than

775
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: the first.

776
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 3: I also think just you know, every president in history

777
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 3: has had a gigantic ego. All of them do yeah

778
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 3: to the point where they they not only it's not

779
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: enough to be president, they compete with each other to

780
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 3: see who is the greatest president. I think every president

781
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 3: thinks that to be a great president you need two terms.

782
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 3: So there's clearly, you know, a lot of ego involved,

783
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 3: and you know it could turn out to be a

784
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 3: profoundly damaging decision the way you described if you know

785
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 3: somehow this ushers in a second Trump agenda. I on

786
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 3: a personal level, I'm incredibly frustrated that we are constantly

787
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 3: having to talk about the age of our democratic nominee

788
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 3: in this campaign. It's the last thing I think I

789
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 3: want to be talking about. The flip side of that, though,

790
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 3: is he's got an incredible record to run on, and

791
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: we shall just be honest that an open primary ahead

792
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 3: of this campaign would have been a messy disaster. It

793
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 3: just always is every primary process. There's lots of infighting,

794
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: the party gets driven left on a bunch of issues.

795
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 3: You never know what's going to come of it. So

796
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 3: like either path would have had a lot of challenges

797
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 3: to it. Instead of John's point, it's like, here we are,

798
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 3: we got to just forge ahead and wine.

799
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: Why hasn't the Biden administration been more effective at communicating

800
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: his accomplishments. It doesn't seem as if and is this

801
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: part of the messy media landscape playing into this, But

802
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:44,919
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem as if people understand or appreciate what

803
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: the Biden administration has done, nor do they really understand

804
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: why he wants to be president and what he hopes

805
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: to accomplish in the next four years. I'd read stuff

806
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: all the time, and I have to say, I don't

807
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: have a clear understanding of either of those things.

808
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 3: I think they've spent too much time worrying about selling

809
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 3: or defending their accomplishments. Like I think we could have

810
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 3: told them, haven't gone through the Obama administration experience that

811
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 3: it's it's just tough, like passing the Chips Act. This

812
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 3: enormous investor investment in semiconductor development in the US, so

813
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 3: we're not dependent on Taiwan in case they're invaded by China.

814
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 3: Enormous accomplishment, a huge deal, but let's be honest, it's

815
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 3: sort of an esoteric conversation. It's also a one day story,

816
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 3: like congrats you pass the bill. Six months later, a

817
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 3: year later you can talk about, you know, opening a

818
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 3: new factory in some swing state and how it's going

819
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 3: to create jobs. So they're doing their best to kind of,

820
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 3: you know, continue to press the case in this story.

821
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: Over time, dots right to voter, connect.

822
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 3: The dots for people. But day to day, you know,

823
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 3: if I'm you know, a single parent, and I go

824
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 3: to the gas station and it costs me twenty five

825
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: bucks more to fill up my tank every single time.

826
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 3: Do I care about you know, semiconductor manufacturing now, or.

827
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 2: Or do you care when someone at the White House

828
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: is like, oh, I know you're annoyed about the about

829
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: your gas, but did you know that gas prices have

830
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 2: just fallen four months in a row? Right, So Joe Biden? Right,

831
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: So it's like, there's this weird you know you I

832
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 2: do think it's important to talk about what he's accomplished.

833
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 2: And you can see this in focus groups too. For

834
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: an episode of The Wilderness I was doing, I was

835
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 2: talking to some folks who are doing a lot of

836
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 2: focus groups with undecided black voters, and it turns out

837
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 2: and a lot of those focus groups, when you do

838
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 2: talk about what Joe Biden has done and accomplished, they're like, Oh,

839
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that. That's that's good to know, right,

840
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: that's a good piece of information. But it's a you know,

841
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 2: politics forever has been like what have you done for

842
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: me lately? And how have you improved my life? And

843
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: you know, right now people are worry about the cost

844
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 2: of living. The biggest cost of living is where you live,

845
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: whether it's mortgage or rent. That's very high. It is

846
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 2: very hard Joe Biden has not like it's hard to

847
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 2: do something about that on the national level. Right, it's

848
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: housing is an issue that's like local, state, federal. I

849
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: think he has a planned now to give like a

850
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 2: big tax credit for people who are buying new homes,

851
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 2: but also like you know, the interest rates are beyond

852
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: his control. Is to like wait to see what the

853
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 2: Fed does.

854
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: What about some of those kitchen table issues you guys,

855
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, like the price of you know, a thing

856
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: a yogurt. I mean, it's insane when you go to

857
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: the grocery store, or the price of gas or rent.

858
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: Did they not talk about that soon enough? It felt

859
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: like they were crowing about the economy while so many

860
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: people were hurting. Would you have advised them to say, hey,

861
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: they're you know, at least talk about it, empathize with people,

862
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: feel their pain like Bill Clinton did and kind of

863
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: get the issue front and center. I feel like they

864
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: didn't embrace it soon enough. Is that fair?

865
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: I think it's fair. Look, we're speaking from experience here,

866
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: Like we went through this as well, right, like like

867
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 2: Barack Obama in twenty ten and we got smoked in

868
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: the midterms and twenty ten, I remember, yeah, and that

869
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: was one of the main criticisms. And again it was

870
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: this constant tension in our White House, like Barack Obama

871
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: just passed the Recovery Act, He's doing all this stuff.

872
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,439
Speaker 2: People don't know about it. We got to talk about

873
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: it more. And then I always remember acts Rout was

874
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: always in our head when we were writing speeches, being like,

875
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 2: you've got to feel sympathy for people who are still struggling.

876
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: We've got to make sure that we lead with that.

877
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 2: And look, I think that the Biden campaign has now

878
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: made that turn, which I think is important. Their inflation

879
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: report came out the other week and it showed inflation

880
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 2: was down. Instead of just like boasting about it, their

881
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 2: statement was, we realized that prices are still too high,

882
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: and Joe Biden is going to fight to keep costs

883
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: down with this, and the Republicans are not, like Donald

884
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: Trump's plan is going to make inflation skyrocket and prices

885
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 2: are going to end up being higher if Donald Trump wins.

886
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: So I do think in the debate you'll see I

887
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: hope Biden try to focus people more on the choice

888
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 2: between what Trump would do for cost of living and

889
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: what he would do for cost of living. If you

890
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: give them another four years.

891
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's also you're always fighting the last battle in

892
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 3: these jobs. And you know, it's a lot most people

893
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 3: believe that our recovery during the Obama administration from the

894
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 3: financial crisis would have been faster and stronger if we

895
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 3: had had done a larger stimulus bill. So the Biden

896
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 3: team shows after this once in a lifetime, you know, pandemic,

897
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 3: to run back on me a little hot, to try

898
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 3: to put forward a bigger stimulus, and that clearly led

899
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 3: to some inflation. Now at the end of the day,

900
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 3: we have recovered from the pandemic better than any country

901
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 3: in the world, and inflation is coming down faster. But

902
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 3: it's just really hard to sell to people. Hey, you

903
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 3: know what, it could have been a lot worse, Like

904
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 3: that's just it never Manterfectual's tough.

905
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, real quickly. I could talk to you guys all days,

906
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 1: but I promise I am not going to. I wanted

907
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 1: to ask you about the conviction that we recently saw

908
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 1: on thirty four counts in New York and juxtaposed that

909
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: with Hunter Biden's conviction. Obviously we know they're very different

910
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: and cases, and yet they're being manipulated, And I'm curious

911
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: how you think both of those will play out in

912
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: addition to these other cases that seem as if they're

913
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: not going to happen for quite a while, and maybe

914
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: not until after the election, right, Yeah.

915
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that the Trump conviction will

916
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: be a data point for voters who are making up

917
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,240
Speaker 2: their minds. And you know, you've already seen a little

918
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 2: movement in the poll on this, and then you know,

919
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 2: they plenty of interviews. I think the New York Times

920
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 2: went back and did a great they had previously done

921
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 2: a poll, they went back to the respondents, asked them

922
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 2: about it. They had some good interviews, and you know,

923
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 2: you hear some people say, like, you know what, I

924
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 2: was undecided before. I just can't be. I can't be

925
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: voting for a convicted felon. I can't do it. So

926
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 2: you will have some of those people. You'll have a

927
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 2: lot of people who are like, either, I wasn't going

928
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 2: to vote for Donald Trump ever before this conviction, and

929
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 2: so I'm not going to now either. And then you

930
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 2: have other people who are like, I like Donald Trump.

931
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: I think it was bullshit, bullshit, and I'm not going

932
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: to change my mind. Right, So I think it has

933
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: an effect on the margins, but of course this is

934
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 2: a race that's going to be decided on the margins,

935
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 2: and so you know, it could have an impact. I

936
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: don't think that the Hunter Biden verdict will have an impact,

937
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: not necessarily because of the charges in the trial itself,

938
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 2: but because I do think voters understand that he's not

939
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 2: running for president. Joe Biden is, and there is no

940
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 2: connection to Joe Biden. And so look, I think I

941
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 2: think if Joe Biden loses the election, it's going to

942
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,439
Speaker 2: be more because some of these other issues we talked about,

943
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 2: people's concerns about cost of living and is he taking

944
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 2: enough action and all the stuff that usually hurts incumbent presidents.

945
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 2: But I don't think it will be the Hunter thing.

946
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 3: The most hopeful data I've heard about Trump's conviction was

947
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 3: I forget which pol it was, but it found that

948
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 3: one in five independent voters said it was less likely

949
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 3: to make them vote for Donald Trump, and that the

950
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 3: conviction mattered a lot to their decision. So for the

951
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 3: you know, the persuadable universe out there is a lot

952
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 3: smaller than we want it to be. But it did

953
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 3: seem like a significant number of independent voters actually did

954
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,479
Speaker 3: care and that this would inform their vote.

955
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:07,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's wrap things up where we kind of started,

956
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: which is your book that you have displayed prominently Democracy

957
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: or Else, which is really a call to arms for

958
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: people who care about democracy and want to make sure

959
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: that it continues in this country. If you had to summarize,

960
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,240
Speaker 1: obviously the first thing people should do is buy your book,

961
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 1: But if you had to summarize some of the key

962
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:41,479
Speaker 1: points that you all outline in this what would they be, John,

963
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: why don't you start? And then Tommy you can add?

964
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I think that getting involved in politics

965
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 2: does not have to be as confusing or scary or

966
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 2: pointless as it may seem, and that there are a

967
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: ton of different ways to get involved, and sort of

968
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 2: the way we laid out all the chapters is it

969
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 2: can be as simple as getting informed so you know

970
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 2: who you're voting for and what you're voting on. And

971
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 2: then if you feel like you want to do more

972
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 2: than that, you can donate. Then you can volunteer, Then

973
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 2: you could be an organizer, You could get a job

974
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 2: in politics, which is what we did, and it was

975
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 2: very fulfilling you could hopefully run for office yourself, and

976
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: so there's a whole bunch of different ways to get involved.

977
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: And the more you're involved in politics, even when you lose,

978
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 2: it still feels like you're having more of an impact

979
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: when you're out there talking to people, persuading people working

980
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 2: in your community, paying attention than just watching this whole

981
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 2: thing unfold on your screen, because that's when you're most

982
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: likely to feel helpless, when you're just a spectator. And

983
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 2: when you actually get into the ring and get involved,

984
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 2: even when you lose and you will have setbacks and

985
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 2: you'll have disappointments, you're still going to feel this sense

986
00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: of agency that you have some control over what's happened

987
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 2: with this country. And it's a lot of fun and

988
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: you get to meet people who you know are going

989
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 2: to end up being your best friends for life.

990
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 3: I think in the book, we sort of walk you

991
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: through a ladder of engagement from the easiest things to do,

992
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,399
Speaker 3: like just get better news. So I think I think

993
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 3: the book ends with our reader being a disgraced one

994
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 3: term residence. Right, yes, yes, so we'll kind of well

995
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 3: baby step you up to the top. But I mean,

996
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 3: I think the one thing I want. John made a

997
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 3: great plug for the book, so I'm not even gonna

998
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 3: do it. I just want folks to know getting involved

999
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 3: in politics doesn't mean fighting it out out over Donald

1000
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 3: Trump versus Joe Biden. It could mean going to a

1001
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 3: community meeting in your town and changing the way schools

1002
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 3: are run, or you know, like getting involved locally, and

1003
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 3: that's where you can have just an enormous impact. I mean,

1004
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 3: if you decide to work full time on a state

1005
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 3: Senate campaign, you can do so much good and change

1006
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 3: the way that race goes just by being there, just

1007
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 3: by donating ten bucks and just by being a part

1008
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 3: of it. So it will be fun, it will be rewarding.

1009
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 3: It really does matter.

1010
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to knock on doors in Pennsylvania just to

1011
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: encourage people to vote, because even though in twenty twenty

1012
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: what sixty seven percent of people eligible voters did vote,

1013
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: it's still sort of a sad number, and it's usually

1014
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: much much lower than that. Why can't we make election

1015
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: Day a national holiday?

1016
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 3: We should?

1017
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should, we should. That would help. I mean,

1018
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 2: there's a whole there's there's a whole bunch of steps

1019
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 2: we can take to make voting easier for more people.

1020
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 2: And you know, some states have already done it, Like

1021
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 2: there are states now that are sending everyone a ballot, right,

1022
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 2: which is which is great.

1023
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 3: We vote by mail in California, comes to your house.

1024
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it out. It's very easy there. So I do

1025
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,760
Speaker 2: think there's things we can do to make voting easier.

1026
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 1: And look, do you think some of those things though,

1027
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: to make voting easier result in more skepticism about the

1028
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: fairness of elections? You know, it always seems to be, yeah,

1029
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: a challenge, kind of a push pull there.

1030
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you're right that it did in twenty twenty.

1031
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 3: I don't think it did before that. I mean, Republicans

1032
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 3: were huge fans of vote by mail, especially in Florida

1033
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:07,479
Speaker 3: where Donald Trump lived and voted by mail by the way,

1034
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 3: for a very long time. And then suddenly when Democrats

1035
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 3: tried to make it easier for people to vote, because

1036
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 3: you know, they didn't want to die in a pandemic,

1037
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,879
Speaker 3: they demogogue did and it's become this big, big fight.

1038
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 3: But I think you're seeing all these reports now that

1039
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 3: Republicans are asking Trump to walk back some of his

1040
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 3: criticism of vote by mail and early voting because they

1041
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 3: want their voters to do it too well.

1042
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 2: And also, if the polls are to be believed, this

1043
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 2: time around, some of the low propensity voters, with the

1044
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: voters who don't turn out in every election, Trump is

1045
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 2: doing a lot better with than Biden. And so if

1046
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 2: you have a very high turnout election, it might actually

1047
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 2: be better for Trump than it is for Biden. And

1048
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 2: usually that's been flipped. The Democrats always wanted a high turnout,

1049
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: Republicans did not. But look, if you believe in democracy,

1050
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 2: then you want to expand the right to vote and

1051
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 2: make sure everyone's voting, and even if it means that

1052
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 2: your side might not do as well. So who knows,

1053
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 2: maybe if the Republicans suddenly find out that more people

1054
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 2: voting helps them, they'll sign on to some of these

1055
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 2: some of these reforms that actually make it easier to

1056
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 2: vote for people.

1057
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 1: If you were betting men, who would you say is

1058
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: going to win in November?

1059
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 2: Guys, Sean, I gotta say, Biden, I gotta say. But

1060
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 2: it's honestly, it's like it's the closest thing to fifty

1061
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 2: fifty that there is. And like I said, that's just

1062
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,439
Speaker 2: forget about all the polls. It's the same two guys

1063
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 2: that ran last time and it was for They were

1064
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 2: forty thousand votes apart last time, so it's a it's

1065
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 2: a coin toss.

1066
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 3: Tommy, Yeah, I mean, I think I just saw the

1067
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 3: five point thirty eight does kind of a national average,

1068
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 3: and I think it's currently Biden's forty point six percent

1069
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 3: and Trump's at forty point four percent, so the polls

1070
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 3: are as close to tide as they could be. And

1071
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 3: then RFK Junior's got nine percent, so I don't know.

1072
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 3: I'm going to bet on Biden because I have to

1073
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 3: be with my heart and not my head. But it's

1074
00:56:58,560 --> 00:56:59,280
Speaker 3: it's fifty fifty.

1075
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 1: Well, Jon Favreau and Tommy Veeder. The book is called

1076
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:08,240
Speaker 1: Democracy or Else. How to Save America in ten Easy Steps.

1077
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 1: I thought I said baby steps too.

1078
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 2: That too.

1079
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Speaker 1: From the hosts of Pod Save America. You guys, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. As I said, I could talk to

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Speaker 1: you for hours about all this stuff, and hopefully we

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00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: can talk again either on your podcast or mine.

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00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 2: Please same here. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: Katie, thank you, thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have

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Speaker 1: DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.

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