WEBVTT - The Cuckoo Mafia 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.960 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:13.520 Works dot com. Hey, you're welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.360 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:18.600 I really thought you were going to go for a nickname. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.640 There you something you're throwing up? Cool on topic. Nickname, 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.160 I can really think a nacking. It's really Dumpsy Douglas, 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:30.480 may Bagel Oranges Douglas. Yeah, he would be your your 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:35.519 mafia names. You're you're you're a monster personas. Yeah, Julie 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.959 bat in the corner, Douglas, bat in the corner baseball back. 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:40.800 I was thinking an actual bat since we just did 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.199 an episode on Vampire Back. Oh no, no, no, it's 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:45.040 like I got a bat in the corner. This this 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:47.600 guy might be rabbit. I'll just unleash ing at you 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:49.600 any moment you have to go get a raby shot 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.320 and everything going from the jugula. Yeah, all right, Or 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:58.760 maybe we can just call me Joe Pesci, Joe Phi okay, 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:05.119 forever associated with movie. That's right, very very typecast that man. Yeah. So, 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.280 if you haven't guessed already or bothered to read the 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.040 title of podcasts, we are of course talking about the 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:12.240 cuckoo mafia. We're talking about the animal mafia. We're talking 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.479 a little bit about the the human mafia as well, 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.240 and in the various forms one encounters it. Yeah, because 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.880 you do if you actually take this system, this organized system, 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.200 when you begin to really peel back the layers you 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.040 can see in all different places in society, right, Yeah, 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:33.680 you really begin to see mafia organized crime. And is 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:38.440 not this uh bunch of stereotypical looking guys. Uh, you know, 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.559 Joe Pesci's and uh and and their their ilk standing 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.560 in the corner and doing very stereotypical things. You see 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.800 it as kind of an economic model that is spread 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.320 not only through all human culture, but even into the 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.160 animal world. Well, I was gonna say, like even in 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.040 our break room, you have Jonathan Strickland there, who you know, 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.240 you gotta put money in a certain place in the 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:04.600 the break room right to get access to the coffee. Coffee, right, 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.520 or there's no more coffee. And that's just the way 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.640 it is, right if you want coffee supply fresh and 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.280 you want it every day, and then Stricklin gets his payment, right, 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:16.160 Or the way that when we bring our yogurts and 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.320 we always have to bring in that one extra yogurt 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.639 because one Christian conger insists on having quote just enough 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:26.799 to wetter beak otherwise, otherwise all the yogurt winds up 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.840 on the floor, all of it, and it's it's it's 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:32.680 discussing in it and it it really takes to that 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:34.880 because like that's delicious yogurt and it all went to waste. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:38.280 And why because I wasn't willing to put up with 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.480 just a little yogurt loss in my diet each week. 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:43.720 That's right. Everybody loses the yogurt if you do not 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.640 supply it for Kristen alright, So we are not trying 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.000 to glorify the mafia, which is actually if you think 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.720 about mafia, that is a huge umbrella term under which 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:56.240 many different organizations from different cultures around the world huddle underneath. 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:58.639 And we tend to think of the Godfather and then 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.399 this quaint group of men just playing checkers and their undershirts. Um. 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.960 But worldwide we'd see mafia doing different types of damage 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.680 in the way of human trafficking, legal wildlife trading, uh 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.560 drugs of course, to just to name a few. So 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:14.920 I want to put that out there. This is not 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.440 glorifying the mafia, but we just wanted to kind of 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.079 cover how they work in the world, so that we 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.960 have a better understanding of how animals may be doing 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.520 the same sort of strategies and tactics at the mafia 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.640 is indeed, Yeah, And I should add I love the 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:32.880 Guy Father movies. Those are some great films, and there 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.000 are a few other organized crime pieces here and there 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.040 that I've really enjoyed over the years. But I find 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.120 more and more I just cannot watch films or get 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.200 involved in in media that is about those sort of 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.040 stereotypical gangster character is one of the reasons I never 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.440 even could manage to watch The Sopranos, even though I 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.640 know The Sopranos is supposed to be brilliant. I know, 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.680 I know, but at the at heart, it's about these, uh, 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:58.240 these these criminal guys that I've seen are you know, 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.960 I'm sure less um artistically solid takes on them so 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.400 many times before, it's like I just don't have any 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.320 more room for it, Like I'm not convinced there's anything 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:10.560 new that I can gain from characters that are even 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.560 partially cast from this mold. All right, let's talk about 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:15.720 this mold. Because when we talk about in the mafe, 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:19.440 we are essentially talking about Kosa nostra, which is roughly 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.159 translated as our thing, which is kind of this closed 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.080 circuit within a criminal syndicate. And we talked about these 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.680 criminal syndicates we're really talking about, at least in this 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.080 old usage of that term um in southern Italy Sicily, 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:40.599 these different neighborhoods in which certain families lorded over those communities. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.599 And I thought this was really interesting. I found this 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.800 little tidbit of John Gotti talking to some of his 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:52.239 subordinates about Kosa nostra and um. This was right before 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.479 he got ratted out by a bunch of people. And 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:58.360 he says, this is going to die. Okay, I'm gonna 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.880 quit doing that being an hour from now, or be 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.039 it tonight or a hundred years from now, when I'm 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.000 in jail. It's gonna be a cost some guys, some 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:10.200 people downstairs. He's referring to the nightclub below. Now, who 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:14.000 I know who's babe, stomach is rotten. I know who 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.400 stomach ain't rotten. You could I could smell it the 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.640 way a dog senses when a guy's got fear. Okay, 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:23.640 that's not just for local color to give you an 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.600 idea of what the mafia sounds like, because everybody probably 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.680 already knows that. Um, but I thought that that conversation, 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:32.600 just that little excerpts spoke volumes about the environment of 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:37.200 fear and implied violence that would come to those who 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:42.480 crossed the code. Yeah. There you see, um, the beginnings 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.599 of a system that's keeping everybody in check because it's hard. 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:50.040 It is a parasitic relationship. It is a parasite feeding 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:51.599 up on the host. But on top of that, we 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.920 have this layer of fear and intimidation, which and it 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.800 comes down to an economic model. I mean, did just 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.520 think of just your average mafia scenario from a thousand movies, right, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.880 some guys running a shop and some uh you know 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:08.120 individual walks in, perhaps with a heavy behind him, and says, hey, 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.120 you've got a nice shop. Here. Would be a pity 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.159 if something happened to it. I can prevent things, bad 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:15.760 things from happening to it, if you give me X 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.880 amount of dollars, you know, per per month. So it 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.560 comes down to, all right, which if I'm gonna expend, 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.400 I'm gonna have to waste some energy, expend some energy 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.840 to pay this man, all right, so we we will 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.120 put how much we stack that money up on the counter. 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.000 But then if I were to resist this individual, I 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.960 would have to expend even more energy, right, I would 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.960 have to somehow fight him back physically or align with 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.440 those who would and and then that comes with inherent risks. 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.560 So it comes down to just an economic decision which 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.960 is easier and which entails less risk. And the interesting 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.839 thing about this is that within this code, this system, 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.279 there's a kind of justice that is doled out, particularly 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:01.080 if you are in the mafia landscape, right and you're 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:04.280 one of the enforcers. If the person doesn't pay up, 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.760 there's a justice. You know, you're not your restaurant's not 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.679 going to run very well pretty soon. Maybe your brother 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.320 won't get that promotion. You know, there are things that 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.040 benefit the person who's paying, not just um, just the 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:20.200 maintenance of their restaurant, but perhaps there's social stature right 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.600 and there, and I've been often there is some degree 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:27.040 of protection there, certainly from other nefarious individuals. Like you're 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.560 probably not going to be paying to protection rackets to 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:34.000 two different parasitic mafia dudes. You're gonna be paying one dude, 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.200 and that dude is going to keep you have to 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.400 dude off your back because you are now part of 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.760 his turf. So that's a great point. That's safety elements. 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.640 So that kind of comes down to this idea of 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.280 what is altruism and we should probably do another episode 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:53.440 UM that is completely dedicated to altruism because it's very interesting. UM. 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:58.440 But there's this idea of altruistic punishment versus selfish on 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.800 selfish punishment, which is what the mafia does write that 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:06.520 selfish unselfish and according to Princeton University and University of 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:12.120 Arizona researchers, society's rule against selfishness or rules rather are 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.600 rooted in the very exploitation that they condemn. And it 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.640 may be that the reason that some of the selfish 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:23.520 unselfish UM justice punishment comes down the pike is because 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.960 it's a resources issue. At the end of the day, 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.440 it's a little bit easier to seed control to a 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.920 couple of really influential UM peddlers out there in the 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:40.080 community and say rather than really be engaged civically and 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:42.120 try to meet out justice in a way that is 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.440 thoughtful and community minded. Yeah, because on one hand, with 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.679 the altruistic punishment model. You have the idea of you know, 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.880 like the wise, benevolent mayor of the town saying, oh, well, 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.520 if you break the rules, they're gonna be there. There's 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.240 gonna be a cost, or you know you're gonna you know, 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.160 you're gonna wind up in the jail cell. You're gonna 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:00.960 wind up with a with a fine, Are you gonna 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.200 be expelled? What have you? And then on the on 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:05.840 the selfish on selfish side of the the word, agin the 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.040 mafia punishment, that is one guy saying, hey, these people 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.240 on my turf, you can't mess with them, that's what 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:15.280 I do. You can't exploit them because I am exploiting 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.440 them to the degree that I can get away with it. Yeah, 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.880 And the system of altruism was actually reported in the 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.600 journal Evolution. And what they did is they they took 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.760 a simulation model that gauged tow community with Stanza system 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.760 built on altruistic punishment or selfish on selfish punishment, and 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.480 they did they found that that um, that kind of 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.360 altruistic punishment which the community comes together and is very 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.640 civic minded, does demand a lot of resources. And that 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:47.000 is perhaps why systems like the mafia tend to do 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:52.160 really well because as a result, there is a lower 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:59.040 instance of crime overall in that community against citizens. So 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.040 you may say, oh, hey, a couple of people become 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.960 fat cats and they're awful and they do some terrible things, 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.960 but as a whole, the community is protected. Yes. And 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.080 what was what's really fascinating about this, uh, this Princeton 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.559 University University at Arizona study, was how they draw in 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:18.840 that idea that not only does the simpler economic model 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.520 again is that is the fat cat model, the mafia 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.480 model as opposed to the altruistic ruler model, but their 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.600 idea that we get that that more altruistic version of 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.120 civilization and society emerges from the fat cat model. It 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.400 evolves over time. And you really see this if you 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.480 sort of squint your eyes and really think about the 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.960 systems of power in the world, Like, what is the 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:44.240 difference between the mafia boss who keeps things under wrap 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.240 but is getting plenty on the side, is living very 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.400 comfortable at the top. What is the difference between that dude, 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.600 that Joe Pesci sort of type cast character and a government. 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.960 What's the difference between that dude and a corporation what's 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.600 the difference between that dude and just a you know, 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.920 you're average local, nice guy employer, Like there are elements 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.040 of the same model everywhere you look. Well, yeah, and 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.680 talk about influence peddlers and fat cats if you're talking 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.560 about lobbyists. And I'm not saying that all lobbyists are 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.000 working outside of the margins, but we have a couple 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:15.800 of cases under our belt that we can point to 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:20.640 lobbyists having tremendous wealth and power and essentially some people, 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:25.760 looking at it this way, buying politicians, uh literally buying 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.760 them by offering them money or goods um or maybe 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.040 just even their influences so great that they have that 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.920 politician in their pocket. Now, let's get out of the 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.480 mafia model for a moment, and let's get into a 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.880 more medieval model, which actually, yeah, I mean this, this 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:46.280 predates the mafia right and medieval Knights basically a military 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:52.079 order created in nine to protect Christian pilgrims visiting Jerusalem. 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.080 I'm talking about the Knights Templar. They branched out over 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.600 time in Western Europe and they created a network of 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:03.120 banks that in the abled religious pilgrims to deposit assets 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.280 in their home countries and then withdrawal of the funds 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.719 in the Holy Land. Right, so what do you have 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:12.840 over time? You have the Nights Templar gaining huge amounts 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:18.480 of financial resources, and we still have that protection element 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.599 in there. So all of a sudden the threat becomes 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.800 and sometimes it's not even the threat is so pervasive 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:26.560 they don't have to say it. If you don't pay up, 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.679 if you don't give it to the Knights Templar, perhaps 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.719 something bad will befall you. It's in the Nights Templars 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:33.520 model is an interesting to want to look at too, 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.240 because of course the Knights Templars did reach that point 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.120 we're talking about, at what point do I say it's 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:43.200 actually worth the effort to break down this organization, And 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.400 that eventually occurred there would be Catholic Church, of course, 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.719 eradicated the Templars after a while. So and you can 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.080 definitely make the argument that this is a case of 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.920 one fat cat looking over the other fact at and 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.440 unim like, you know what used to be a smaller 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.360 cat in our feral community, but now you're a little 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.720 too big, a little too powerful, and uh and uh, 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.000 and we're gonna see that you go away and I 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.320 don't want to put it all on the the Catholic Church. 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.120 The King of France also played a substantial role in 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.120 that scenario as well. But that does go back to 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.600 um that mathematical model in which we're talking about two people, 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.400 those two fat cats that are trying to cancel each 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.960 other out and and say, at the end of the day, 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.320 their coda rules. Yeah, because everybody can't be a fat cat, 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:28.920 and you can only have so many parasites living off 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.880 the host. Uh and and so there's there's a careful 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.079 balance that has to be maintained. And again, you can 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.360 look to governmental models, you can look to big business, 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.280 and you see very similar things. There can only be 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.600 so many dominant players in the particular commercial market, and 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.559 what did they do that. There's a certain amount of 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.800 competition they will tolerate, and then there are certain certain 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.200 types of competition that they will readily feast upon or destroy. 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.080 All Right, we're gonna take a quick break, and when 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.080 we get back, we're gonna talk about Kuka birds, gonna 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:07.120 talk about their spaghetti dinners in their back room. All right, 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.040 we're back. Before we start talking about our fine feathered friends, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.800 let's talk about tree wasps and cancer cells because they 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:15.960 do actually have something to do with this whole mafio. 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:20.480 So this system, indeed, we now wasps engage in UH 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:22.440 and some of the other practices. We're going to discuss 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.960 UH shortly. But tree wasps. UH haven't observed that police 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.280 hives to make sure that no member other than the 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:33.000 queen lays eggs. And the same police, though, will often 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.320 lay illicit eggs themselves. So that's the case where it's 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.200 my job to lay down the law. But since I'm 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.120 the one laying down the law, I'm the one that 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.240 can bend it a bit, indeed, and so it's kind 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.560 of interesting. I'll just slip in a couple of my eggs. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.800 That's all right. I'm the influence peddler here exactly. And 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.440 then in terms of cancer cells, we know that mutations 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.680 and a cell's own DNA initiate the changes that put 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.840 it on a really destructive path. But it's a lot 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:02.520 more or nuanced than that, because the micro environment of 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.680 a tumor acts like a kind of co conspirator. And 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.640 we won't get way into this because we could dedicate 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.240 entire podcast to this, but essentially, what you see our 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.160 cancer cells that will prevent other tumors from forming, as 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.760 if to say, no, no, no, this is my my 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.360 tumor corner here, which you know, essentially at the same 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.480 time as kind of a good things. There's no more 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.480 tumors that are forming. But you see this again in 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:30.160 nature and you see it best and birds ah yes, 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:32.560 And that of course is why we call this episode 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:37.040 the Cuckoo Mafia, because we see some really fascinating birds 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:42.120 that are involved in brood paraticism also known as egg 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.920 dumping now egg dumping. When you just say that, it 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.800 brings to mind like just this idea of of a 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:49.200 bird that I know what to do with his eggs, 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.160 just like throwing them off a cliff or something. But 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.800 that's not not what's going on here. This is the 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.400 idea that that on one hand, you have the birds 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.720 that are are are laying their heads, they're raising their young, 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.040 uh and it's a nice, beautiful, wonderful thing that you 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.000 would see in a child's book about nature. And then 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.120 you have those other birds. Those birds don't care. They 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.760 don't want to look after that egg and raise that 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.720 that chick and and vomit food into its mouth. They 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.400 have other things to do. They have a different set 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.680 of values, but they have a genetic mission. Like all organisms, 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.240 they need their offspring to survive. So they've developed this 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.600 practice of dumping eggs on these other bird nests, on 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.680 these other more stable environments, with the intention that the 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.400 egg will hatch and the chick will be raised in 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.400 that environment. And ha ha ha on that that poor 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.040 bird in the nest, right, And we see this in 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.600 sea birds. But the thing about seabirds is that they 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.480 will deposit their eggs and then take off, and then 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.680 they won't know whether or not this actually came to 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.480 fruition there. They're young, broad right, and in some cases, 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:53.800 if the ag hatches, it's likely going to be eaten 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.440 by the very family that they were dumped upon. It's 0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:59.920 not a good model, really, And they have to find 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.920 eggs that are species that are somewhat similar to them 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.520 so that the egg can maybe squeak in there and 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.159 go unnoticed at least for a while, right, Because eggs, 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.360 if you just looking at chicken eggs in the fridge, 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.520 you know, just the white kind that come from here supermarket. 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:16.439 You may miss out on this. But there is a 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.440 lot of difference among all the different types of bird 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.960 eggs out there. There's different colors, different patterns, and so 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.600 a bird is going to be able to tell if hey, 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.960 I I lay brown eggs and there is a blue 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.280 speckled one in here. Something is off. Somebody's trying to 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.320 pull one over on me, It's true. And so we 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.240 have birds that will do the sort of egg dumping, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.640 but they're going to take these mafia like tactics and 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.040 ensure that that egg will be taken care of, that 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.240 it gets protected, and it does that vise of the 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:51.600 the own protection or destruction that it offers. Right. One 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:53.480 of the best examples of this, of course, is the 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.360 the cowbird. There are two species of cowbird. You'll find 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.000 both in North America, and they've they've managed to spread 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.480 out even more from their original territory due to the 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.919 way that we we treat our land as a as 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.879 a human species. But what's remarkable here is that they 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:11.920 are very much like that that scenario we're talking about earlier. Hey, 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:13.840 nice story, would it would be a pity if something 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.119 happened to it? And then if you don't pay up, 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.640 what happens, Well, suddenly the front window to your store 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.440 is broken, your your merchandise is thrown out in the street, 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.840 maybe something catches on fire. There's retribution if you do 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.280 not obey the laws. Now, these earlier models that these 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.080 these sea birds we're talking about, there's no retribution. They're 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:34.359 just they're just taking a risk. Maybe maybe they'll raise it, 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.760 maybe they won't. Maybe it'll hatch and the young, young 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.120 one will will be able to squirm away before it's 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.960 it's pecked off as as an interloper. But with a cowbird, uh, 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.640 there is retribution. Now this used to be just more 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.399 of a theory than anything. Believe. The original theory, the 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:54.360 mafia theory of the cowbird, came from evolutionary biologists uh 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:59.639 Amas Xavi and back in seventy nine. But eventually scientists 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.080 put all this to the test. That's right. Jeff Hoover 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:06.240 at the Illinois Natural History Survey in Champagne, Illinois, provided 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:11.920 artificial nests for one and eighty pair of profonetary warblers 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.960 and then waited for the cowbirds to cuckle them to 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:20.080 deposit their eggs. Then he selectively removed the cowbird eggs. 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:24.879 So what happened pretty soon the cowbirds swooped in, they retaliated, 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.000 They returned to the nest to eat or destroy the 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:32.600 remaining warbler eggs. And what's more, warblers that had laid 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.719 too early for the cowbirds to cuckle them, they also 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.679 suffered retrobration to their nests also got turned over and destroyed, 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.680 and the cowbirds would routinely eat or trash these more 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.480 developed eggs to force the warblers to rebuild their next 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.919 elsewhere and start over again and hopefully have it in 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.520 sync when with the cowbirds could swoop in and deposit 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.119 an egg. So, yeah, they came in and just totally 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.880 devastated things. They really drove home and we're again we're 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.320 gonna anthromorphize a little to layer that mafia understanding of 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:09.080 this on the behavior, but they really come in tear 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:13.560 everything up, murder with the strong message, Hey, do you 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:15.240 want to survive in this world? If you want to 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:17.760 carry out the genetic mission of passing on your own 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:22.159 genetic material and saying that your children exist into the 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.160 next generation generation behind it, the only way you're gonna 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.320 do it is by playing along with this little scheme 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.520 of ours. You're gonna have to accept it to a 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.679 agree because the cost is way too high for you 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:35.520 to pay. Yeah, and to put numbers behind that cost. 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:37.720 Hever says that, um, I get that this is what 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.120 you just described as an evolutionary state of acceptance, and 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:44.119 that the cost is that on average, the host birds 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.520 will raise three of their own chicks when they also 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:50.639 support a cowbird chick. Yet they raised just one of 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.480 their own if a cowbird egg has been rejected. And 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:58.080 I like this idea of it's an evolutionary state of acceptance, 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.600 like I gotta, I gotta accept this because of terms, 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.520 it's an offer I can't refuse. Yeah, and you can 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.440 extrapolate that to to human culture as well, that there's 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:11.280 sort of this built in mathematical reason for why we 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:15.119 will tolerate a certain amount of of corruption, a certain 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.440 amount of of criminal activity, in a certain amount of 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.240 just general awfulness on the part of people's and organizations 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.840 that rule over our world. Yeah. And speaking of mathematical models, 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:31.000 this mafia hypothesis, which had been really controversial, was finally 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:36.400 borne out uh Maria Abou Chakra, Arnie Charleston, and Christigian 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.320 hill Bay. They modeled this hypothesis with cuckoopers who were 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.200 ravaging I think they are magpie birds, and they found 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:46.760 that this theory does explain the behavior as long as 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.720 two conditions are met, one that the cuckoos visit the 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.480