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Speaker 1: Yeah, Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene

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Speaker 1: with David Gura. Daily we bring you insight from the

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Speaker 1: best of economics, finance, investment, and international relations. Find Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot Com, and of course,

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Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg. Our first guess Russ Castrick, who joins

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Speaker 1: us set now from our studios in New Yorker Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: and living three at studios. He is at portfolio manager

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Speaker 1: for black Rocks Global Allocation. Russ, great to speak with

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Speaker 1: you once again. Sorry I couldn't be there in person.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you first of all, just what you're

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Speaker 1: gonna be listening for tomorrow? As I mentioned the FED

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Speaker 1: kicking off this two day meeting today, I expect we'll

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Speaker 1: get some commentary on on the balance sheet. What are

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Speaker 1: you gonna be listening for? When FED chere? Jannyellen takes

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Speaker 1: to the podium after that meeting, concludes tomorrow, Well, good morning.

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Speaker 1: I think there are a couple of things. Obviously, the

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Speaker 1: balance she's gonna be front and center. I think the

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Speaker 1: other is we had up until August a string of

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Speaker 1: consistently weak inflation reports that started to shift in August

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Speaker 1: thanks to some some hike in gasoline and energy prices.

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Speaker 1: What is the Fed's view of inflation. Are they still

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Speaker 1: concerned about the disappointments earlier in the year, or do

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Speaker 1: they believe those are transitory and therefore a December hike

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Speaker 1: is more likely if we see indications that that that

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Speaker 1: inflation area had wins. Our transitory confirmed something that Janet

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Speaker 1: Yellen said now many months ago, she walked it back

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Speaker 1: a little bit when she was speaking and testifying on

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Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill. Has her initial assessment of that been

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Speaker 1: confirmed by the data that we've seen here over these

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Speaker 1: last few months. Well, certainly the August print was stronger

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Speaker 1: than we've seen. But I think there is a legitimate

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Speaker 1: question here because many times we talk about the transitory

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Speaker 1: nature of the data. We cite particular instances, whether it's

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Speaker 1: hotel accommodations or data charges going down, and the fact is, well,

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Speaker 1: those might be one off events. You could also view

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Speaker 1: those through the prism a secular downward UH price pressure

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Speaker 1: in many industries and telecom in hotels, and that's something

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Speaker 1: that that may continue, and perhaps the inflation numbers are

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Speaker 1: not quite as transitory as we think we're focusing here

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Speaker 1: on inflation. I think it's safe to say that, uh,

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Speaker 1: since since these last few meetings, we've been speaking less

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Speaker 1: about the labor market. When you when you look at

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Speaker 1: the US labor market today, the health of it, how

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Speaker 1: much of a concern isn't Do you think that we've

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Speaker 1: been a bit neglectful here not talking more about the

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Speaker 1: state of the labor economy, focusing so much on inflation. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, the funny thing is, the labor market has

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Speaker 1: been so steady, uh in some ways, you know that

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Speaker 1: the CPI print has become what the non farm payroll

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Speaker 1: number used to be. I think what's remarkab about the

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Speaker 1: labor market is not the consistency the job gains. It's

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Speaker 1: the fact that we're creating jobs at a faster pace

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Speaker 1: than than to to keep a neutral unemployment rate, and

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Speaker 1: yet wages remain stuck at around two and a half percent.

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Speaker 1: And that, to me is the big conundrum. And it

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Speaker 1: ties back to this inflation argument. When are we going

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Speaker 1: to start to see will we start to see that

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Speaker 1: for aditional relationship the so called Phillips curve between the

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Speaker 1: labor market and inflation. So far, it just hasn't manifested

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Speaker 1: the way economic textbooks say it should. So that's the question,

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Speaker 1: as you've been chewing this over, are you Are you

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Speaker 1: any closer to, if not an answer a theory on

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Speaker 1: why that's the case. Well, I think the theory is

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Speaker 1: that there has been some things that have changed, and

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Speaker 1: it's not as if the laws of economics have been

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Speaker 1: repealed at some point. I think if the labor market

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Speaker 1: remains tied enough, you will nudge wages higher. But clearly

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Speaker 1: some of the mechanisms have changed, and I would cite,

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Speaker 1: uh the role of globalization, I would say technology. I'd

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Speaker 1: also probably cite the decline in private sector union membership

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Speaker 1: as severing one of the links between cost pressures and

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Speaker 1: wages that existed up more clearly thirty or forty years ago.

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Speaker 1: Broadcaster with a set from Blackpark, Tom Keane wandering you

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Speaker 1: walk to work today? Tom? How did you get in

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Speaker 1: with the the traffic? I walked to work, of course, Key.

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Speaker 1: It was so busy and the security was so There's

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Speaker 1: a little knoll on Central Park where the risk you

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Speaker 1: can get down to pick me up. They usually do

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Speaker 1: that at three SHO couldn't even do it today even

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Speaker 1: know It's like where Nathan Hale was before he got

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Speaker 1: over the third Avenue. It was tragically killed and it

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Speaker 1: was like a revolution kind of thank good morning, David.

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Speaker 1: Gr Lots lots going on here in New York. Terrific

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Speaker 1: news flow. We'll get to that through the hour. Good

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Speaker 1: morning everyone, coast to coast and worldwide as well. Russ

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Speaker 1: consters with us and just brilliant ideas for us over

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Speaker 1: the last hour and a half with you. Let me

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Speaker 1: tie in your work with one Jeffrey Rosenberg, he of

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Speaker 1: Carnegie mel and Mr Rosenberger black Rock will join us

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Speaker 1: on our FED show this tomorrow. Are you strategizing in

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Speaker 1: a one unit one economy Gaussian probability world, a Bell

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Speaker 1: curve of one America? Or are we so split in

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Speaker 1: our wealth, in our inequality, in the amount of equity?

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Speaker 1: Were we so split that it's not only two America's politically,

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Speaker 1: but it's who America's financially. For black Rock, well, certainly

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Speaker 1: the economy looks different, and I think you're asking a

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Speaker 1: very legitimate question. You We spoke back on on the

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Speaker 1: air a few minutes ago about the wealth effect. Now

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Speaker 1: the wealth effect goes exactly to your question. We've seen

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Speaker 1: this enormous surgeon wealth household wealth up fifty in about

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Speaker 1: six years. That is very significant for one part of

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Speaker 1: the country. It's almost irrelevant for another part, particularly to

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Speaker 1: the extent that much of those wealth games came through

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Speaker 1: the stock market, whereas you will know, many Americans simply

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Speaker 1: don't participate. And I want to really emphasize, folks, this

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Speaker 1: is something David and I've talked about, which is it's

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Speaker 1: not East coast, West coast anymore, or you know Nashville

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Speaker 1: saying they're the third coast. It's about in every region.

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Speaker 1: David helped me with the Carolinas here. I mean in

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Speaker 1: every region, there's a city here, a city there that's booming.

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Speaker 1: Is that right, David Caroline, you mentioned North Carolina where

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Speaker 1: I'm from. Of course, a lot of that seems to

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Speaker 1: center around places where you have us tuitions of higher education.

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Speaker 1: You've got universities and colleges, and that seems to to

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Speaker 1: make a difference. And you see a lot of effort,

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Speaker 1: particularly in western North Carolina, central and western North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: to to kick start communities that had relied on furniture

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Speaker 1: other forms of manufacturing. And then do we have a

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Speaker 1: fed dealing with that Russ and then that lead us

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Speaker 1: to bubbles. You know, Steve roach X Morgan Stanley now

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Speaker 1: at Yale University. Uh lad the charge on bubble analysis?

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Speaker 1: Are we bubbly? Are we bubblicious? Well? I think there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of things. I mean, first of all, on

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Speaker 1: the FED. In fairness to the FED, people have leveled

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Speaker 1: a lot of criticism at them. The FED really doesn't

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Speaker 1: have the tool set to adequately deal with some of

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Speaker 1: the issues we're talking about. You know, rates are very

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Speaker 1: blunt instrument, and I'm not sure that the ideal mechanism

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Speaker 1: to tackle inequality. Uh. In terms of bubbles, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think we're necessarily an equity bubble. What I

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Speaker 1: do believe is that we're in this unusual set of

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Speaker 1: circumstances where stocks and bonds are expensive at the same time.

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Speaker 1: We haven't seen that, at least to this extent, in

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Speaker 1: many decades. Let me ask you just about the prospect

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Speaker 1: of change at the fedizer If we've talked about this

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Speaker 1: a little bit this week and the week before, of course,

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Speaker 1: fights chairs stand Fisher announcing his resignation effective in a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks at time. Who knows what's going to

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Speaker 1: happen to the FED chair. There are other vacancies on

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Speaker 1: the FED as well. How what transformative is this moment

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Speaker 1: for the FED? You know, it's it's a great question

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Speaker 1: because we talked about the FED, we talked about the

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Speaker 1: fans reaction function. But obviously the FED is an organic

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Speaker 1: institution and it will change as its members change, Which

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Speaker 1: raises the question, what is the FED gonna look like

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Speaker 1: in a year? Uh? You know, my my own view

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Speaker 1: is I don't believe we're going to see a significant

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Speaker 1: shift in policy, uh, given some of the comments from

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Speaker 1: the administration, given some of the views they've expressed on

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Speaker 1: the dollar, I would personally be surprised if we saw

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Speaker 1: many of the open positions filled by UH economists or

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Speaker 1: or or others that have a reputation as being fairly hawkish.

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Speaker 1: Do you think we're to see more business people? In

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Speaker 1: other words, is the day of the FED stacked with

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Speaker 1: with PhD economists coming to an end? Well, I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's coming to an end, but I certainly think

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Speaker 1: you will see more business people. There's been that Tennessee

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Speaker 1: already with the administration up and again that's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: a bad thing. I mean certainly the economy is changing

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Speaker 1: in ways that are not fully captured by textbooks and

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Speaker 1: getting some of that granular, more tactile experience. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that would be bad. And Browing Russ Costers, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for a perspective with black Rock with

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Speaker 1: their strategy and sset allocation as well. David Burrick here

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Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. And the Ronald Reagan Building for

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Speaker 1: a Bloomberg Live event on the future of healthcare, Unlocking

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Speaker 1: and supporting value. Tom Keane in New York and our

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Speaker 1: Bloombergo eleven three oh studios, and I'm joined by Dr

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Speaker 1: Toby Constate with the CEO of the Cleveland Clinic. I'll

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Speaker 1: be speaking with him a little bit late or on

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Speaker 1: a panel with three other CEOs, the head of American

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Speaker 1: Cancer Society, the head of Visor, and the head of

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Speaker 1: Walgreen's Boots Alliance as well, and we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about value based healthcare. I told you, what is it,

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Speaker 1: uh exactly? Help me do my homework here head to

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Speaker 1: the panel. This is the new watchword. We're hearing this

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Speaker 1: a lot across the healthcare spectrum. What is it exactly? Well,

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Speaker 1: currently and most places are being paid on the basis

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Speaker 1: of uh, an individual procedure or treatment. And what we're

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Speaker 1: really looking at is beginning to treat people on the

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Speaker 1: basis of the outcomes and that and the idea is

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Speaker 1: to keep people from getting sick, keep them out of

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Speaker 1: the hospital, and we'll be paid on the basis of

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Speaker 1: maintaining their health. And so the healthy you are, the

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Speaker 1: better off it will be for us. And uh so

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Speaker 1: the objectives aligned with the patients. You say we uh,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder what we means in this context. I'll

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Speaker 1: be talking with you you run a big, big hospital,

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Speaker 1: big medical center, and be talking to the head of

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Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical company Walgreens Boots Alliance in the American Cancer scize. Well,

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Speaker 1: are all the parties together working on this. Who's who's

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Speaker 1: taking the league when it comes to this transition. Well,

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Speaker 1: the risk are really going to be on the providers. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, we will be paid a certain amount per months,

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Speaker 1: remember per months to look after patients. Uh, and we

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Speaker 1: will be responsible for all of their care. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: so the really the providers, I want to take the

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Speaker 1: risk and the WIE as the providers, what's the risk exactly?

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Speaker 1: It sounds at face like this makes a lot of

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Speaker 1: sense that that you should be paying for something that works,

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Speaker 1: you should be paying for things that are bundled, paid

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Speaker 1: for the whole the whole day. What's what's the risk

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Speaker 1: that you're taking on with this transition. Well, the risk

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Speaker 1: is UH twofold. First of all, Currently there's an upside risk.

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Speaker 1: If we do better, we get to share in the

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Speaker 1: UH in the difference if we then eventually it will

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Speaker 1: be downside risk too. And if we don't do is

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Speaker 1: well and cost less for taking care of patients, we're

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Speaker 1: going to be responsible for that and we will lose

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Speaker 1: money on it. So there's incentives both up and down.

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Speaker 1: Where did this this idea come from? Does it date

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Speaker 1: back to Michael Porter at Harvard Business School who had

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Speaker 1: this revolutionary idea? Why are we doing it at this

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Speaker 1: point in time? Is it's something catalyzed by the Affordable

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Speaker 1: Care Act? Well, it actually dates way back before that.

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Speaker 1: Romney really I brought this in in Massachusetts, uh and

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Speaker 1: with the idea and we've really been looking at a

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Speaker 1: new way over the last decade or so on how

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Speaker 1: we get paid in healthcare and what the objectives of

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Speaker 1: the reimbursements are. Ducher cosgrew wonderful to speak to you

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Speaker 1: again after Davos this year, when when you look at

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Speaker 1: the four or seven or eight, I can't keep count

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Speaker 1: iterations of Republican proposed legislation in Congress, in Senate at

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Speaker 1: six Pennsylvania Avenue. What's the best proposal for doctors and nurses? Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm concerned about all of them. To be honest with you,

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Speaker 1: I think the concern is that there's going to leave

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Speaker 1: a lot of people uncovered. Uh. And I frankly don't

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Speaker 1: think that the bills, the repeal bills, deal with the base,

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Speaker 1: the root cause of the problems. The root cause the

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Speaker 1: problem is, I see, it is the rising cost of healthcare.

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Speaker 1: And that happens really for two reasons. First of all,

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Speaker 1: you've got an older population. Uh. And secondly, there's more

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Speaker 1: things that we can do as healthcare providers to to

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Speaker 1: take care of them. So you're seeing across the world

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Speaker 1: increasing costs of healthcare. Uh and uh, none of these

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Speaker 1: bills really begin to deal with that. Are we going

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Speaker 1: to go across Lake Erie and do a Canadian plan?

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Speaker 1: Are we heading for some form of Canadian or United

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Speaker 1: Kingdom plan? Well, I don't think that's a political reality

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Speaker 1: at this point in the United States, I think that

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Speaker 1: what I would like to see is that none of

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Speaker 1: these repeals really take effect. If you look at the

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Speaker 1: bill and you go back and what it really started

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Speaker 1: out to do. It really wanted to increase coverage, which

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Speaker 1: it did. It needed to improve the quality of healthcare.

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Speaker 1: And if you see across the country over the last

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Speaker 1: eight years, gradually you've seen an improvement in quality of

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Speaker 1: healthcare for hospitals. UH. And then UH, the thing that

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Speaker 1: it has not done well is control the cost of healthcare. UH.

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Speaker 1: And so UH and I would hope that what we

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Speaker 1: would see is UH coming together and a bipartisan fashion

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Speaker 1: to begin to look at the cost of healthcare, both

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Speaker 1: the efficiency of how we deal with patients who are sick,

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Speaker 1: and also how we begin to keep people well and

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Speaker 1: deal with the three epidemics which are really plaguing in

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Speaker 1: the United States right now, which is smoking, obesity, and UH,

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Speaker 1: the opiate condiction. David Gern, I want to get to

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Speaker 1: the opioid issue here at a moment. Thank you Allen

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Speaker 1: Krueger of Princeton for important comments yesterday. Dr Cosgrove, David Gerrn,

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Speaker 1: I have to rip up the script and we do

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Speaker 1: that with Toby Cosgrove, who wandered out a medical school

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Speaker 1: in three cups of coffee. Later was in Denaying running

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Speaker 1: twenty two casualties, staging flight, trying to get people on

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Speaker 1: airplanes so that they could live coming out of wounds

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Speaker 1: in Vietnam. We do this with a backdrop of ken

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Speaker 1: Burns the Vietnam War. Yes, Mr Burns will join us. UM.

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Speaker 1: We've been really trying to work with his schedule, and

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Speaker 1: we'll have ken Burns on October. Dr Cosgrove George Will

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Speaker 1: calls ken Burn's effort a masterpiece. What did you see

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Speaker 1: in Vietnam that you need ken Burns to tell in

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Speaker 1: his documentary? I think ken Burns will tell a story

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Speaker 1: UM that is clearly the horror of war. UM. And

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Speaker 1: there are no good, good guys or people who wear

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Speaker 1: a high how white hat and a war UM. And

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Speaker 1: I think until you have participated in war and you

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Speaker 1: really don't recognize the magnitude of the destruction it is

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Speaker 1: in both human lives and property within that is the

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Speaker 1: medicine that you learned. We've gone to a medicine that

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Speaker 1: is so removed most of us barely know who the

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Speaker 1: pediatrician is. Or maybe the surgeon wandering by and three

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Speaker 1: levels you may be not even sure who's going to

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Speaker 1: operate on a given day. What can we learn about

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Speaker 1: the medicine of another time and place around Vietnam, around

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Speaker 1: the general care we knew that we can bring forward

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Speaker 1: and rekindle today. Well, first of all, I think that

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Speaker 1: you clearly recognize that the quality of care across the

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Speaker 1: country has improved and dramatically over time, and uh, even

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Speaker 1: since the time of the Vietnam War. Just uh, let

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Speaker 1: me put it in perspective for you for a second.

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Speaker 1: During the Civil War, of everybody who was injured died

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Speaker 1: an he started injury in Vietnam, ninety five percent of

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Speaker 1: the people who are injured survived. Now it is closer

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Speaker 1: to so the quality of the care, both for civilians

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Speaker 1: and the military has improved enormously. I think what is

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Speaker 1: being lost and in fact, what we're trying to improve is, uh,

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Speaker 1: the fact that we need to to concentrate on patients

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Speaker 1: um and all of the things that surrounded patients, particularly

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Speaker 1: the emotional aspects and the empathy that are require are

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Speaker 1: to drive that. And at the Cleveland Clinic, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that we did is we UH said that

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Speaker 1: our matra is going to be petting patients first and

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Speaker 1: everything that that involves, and everybody in the hospital, whether

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Speaker 1: you are a neurosurgeon or you're driving the bus, UH

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Speaker 1: is uh. The reason that they're there is for patients.

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Speaker 1: And I think once you're centered around that, it begins

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Speaker 1: to change of the attitude that people have in the

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Speaker 1: empathy which they exhibit. My one of my first summer

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Speaker 1: jobs was at UNC Hospitals in Chapel Hill, working with

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Speaker 1: the department that looked into quality. It was clear that

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Speaker 1: was becoming the rage in healthcare policy, doing better at

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Speaker 1: measuring the quality of care, looking at how patients were

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Speaker 1: fearing and how they felt. Where do things stand now

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Speaker 1: when you begin to assess the efficacy of treatment? Are

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Speaker 1: we are we doing a better job of ensuring that

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Speaker 1: the treatment is a quality treatment and that patients are

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Speaker 1: doing better as a result. Yeah. We want people to

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Speaker 1: come in the hospital to be safe, uh, free from

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Speaker 1: errors and mistakes, and I think we're question that we

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Speaker 1: are having a much more high reliability UH for our organization.

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Speaker 1: The quality has improved, UH, and it is improved with

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Speaker 1: measurement UH. And one of the things that I think

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Speaker 1: is so important is the transparency that goes with measuring quality.

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Speaker 1: The transparency has to be both internal, uh two members

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Speaker 1: of the healthcare team, and it has to be external

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Speaker 1: to the community. And we've attempted to do that over time.

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Speaker 1: But if you look at quality, quality really falls into

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Speaker 1: three categories. Uh. It's the clinical quality, which we are

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Speaker 1: measuring like crazy. But until recently, we did not consider

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Speaker 1: the physical nor the emotional quality that went with the hospitalization.

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Speaker 1: And now we're much better at that um and measure it,

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Speaker 1: report it, share it both internally and externally, and right

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Speaker 1: down to individually. David, this is what you and I

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Speaker 1: love to do, and this is what our team puts

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Speaker 1: together every day. Alan Krueger yesterday a prince and I

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Speaker 1: believe you have Dr Cosgrow with you in Washington from

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Speaker 1: the Cleveland Clinic, a Dr Toby Cosco, the CEO of

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Speaker 1: the Cleveland Clinic. And I'm still thinking about many of

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Speaker 1: the statistics that Dr Krueger brought up yesterday on the show,

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Speaker 1: among them that nearly half of prime age men, men

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Speaker 1: between the ages of twenty five and fifty four who

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Speaker 1: aren't in the labor force, take pain medication on a

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Speaker 1: daily basis. Two thirds of those men are about two

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Speaker 1: million of them take prescription pain medication on a daily basis,

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Speaker 1: and brings some economics to what is a crisis in

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Speaker 1: this country, the opioid crisis. Dr Toby Cosco has been

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Speaker 1: thinking about and speaking out about this as well. Give

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Speaker 1: us the lay of the land that we talk about

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Speaker 1: it as a crisis. What constitutes that particular crisis? How

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Speaker 1: bad are things as you see them? Well, I think

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Speaker 1: if you look at it just in terms of deaths UH,

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Speaker 1: this year there will be sixty two thousand deaths UH

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Speaker 1: from overdoses. UH. That compares of what went on in

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Speaker 1: Vietnam and then the total Vietnam War there are fifty

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Speaker 1: eight thousand deaths UH. They expected to go to ninety

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Speaker 1: thousand deaths over the next three years, which is UH

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Speaker 1: doesn't begin to talk about the number of overdoses that

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Speaker 1: there are. Just in Caihua County, we saw over seven

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Speaker 1: thousand overdoses come into hospitals uh uh in the last year. UH.

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Speaker 1: And that doesn't count the financial uh cost of maintaining this,

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Speaker 1: nor the social or emotional costs of looking after these patients.

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Speaker 1: It's really ah escalating at a very fast pace. How

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Speaker 1: did we get here? And we don't need to to

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Speaker 1: assign culpability if if you don't want to do that,

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Speaker 1: but this is certainly something that has, as you say,

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Speaker 1: taken off. How do we get to this point where

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Speaker 1: so many people in the US are taking these kinds

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Speaker 1: of drugs. Well, first of all, you know, we have

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Speaker 1: had a try to maintain people without pain. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: I think that you have to say that inadvertently the

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Speaker 1: medical profession was responsible for a lot of this. We

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Speaker 1: had gave out pain medication, and people did not realize

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Speaker 1: the addictive nature of a lot of the new pain medications.

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Speaker 1: Octic coding, for example, is UH was touted as not

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Speaker 1: being as addictive as UH codeine was UH, and so

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Speaker 1: it was prescribed widely. And then on top of that,

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Speaker 1: pain became one of the new vital signs, and people

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Speaker 1: trying to contain people's pain by medicating them uh. And

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Speaker 1: then the government began to reimburse us on the basis

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Speaker 1: of how well we looked after people's pain. All these

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Speaker 1: things began to suggest that physicians should give more and

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Speaker 1: more pain medications, which they did. Um. And Uh. It

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Speaker 1: turns out right now that of heroin attics started with

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Speaker 1: some sort of perscrission drug. Uh. And then on top

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Speaker 1: of that, Uh, we have seen uh an influx of

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Speaker 1: new medications um. Uh they have seen um coming in

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Speaker 1: from China. Now, Uh, what you have have begin to

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Speaker 1: drugs that begin to be a hundred times more potent

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Speaker 1: than morphine. Uh, and they're now being laced into the drugs,

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Speaker 1: and so you may get a drug that has been

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Speaker 1: laced uh and invertly way overdose from that. It goes

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Speaker 1: back to the conversation we're having before the breaking part.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about measuring quality. There's certainly been efforts to

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Speaker 1: measure pain as well. Is is the measuring of pain

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Speaker 1: is subjective thing. I know we've counted on patients to

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Speaker 1: rate with the smiley face to the wincing cartoon face,

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Speaker 1: how they're they're feeling at this point, Uh, is that

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Speaker 1: still a problem measuring how much pain the patient is

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Speaker 1: in and when the patient needs to take the kind

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Speaker 1: of medications that we're talking about, No question about it.

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Speaker 1: It is a subjective measurement and various. If I remember

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Speaker 1: one time I had a kidney stone and I was

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Speaker 1: well medicated, and uh, in in fact, that hurt a

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Speaker 1: lot and so I just wanted more something. Yeah, please

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Speaker 1: get rid of the pain. Um. But you know, we

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Speaker 1: have to understand that about of people in the United

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Speaker 1: States at some time in their life have back pain.

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Speaker 1: And if we give all of those some sort of

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Speaker 1: opioid medication, we're going to put a lot of that

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Speaker 1: medication out into the into the environment. And so we

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Speaker 1: have begun to look at new ways we can begin

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Speaker 1: to treat people with back pain. Not everybody needs to

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Speaker 1: have some sort of medication. Uh. And so we've treated

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Speaker 1: with psychological support, with physiotherapy, et cetera. You're a Williams guy,

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Speaker 1: I believe you know there's a small school up in

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire called Dartmouth. Not that you'd pay attention to that,

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Speaker 1: but when you when you in the Dartmouth grad Center,

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Speaker 1: Apportman of Ohio get together and talk about opioid. Portman's

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Speaker 1: had the courage to lead on this. How do we

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Speaker 1: get from Portman's leadership to Ohio solution or the beginning

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Speaker 1: of solution on this this heroin opioid epidemic. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think the first thing we have to do is recognize

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Speaker 1: the magnitude of the problem. Uh. And I think that

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Speaker 1: generally not recognize what a serious problem that is. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think it was generally recognized until fairly recently

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Speaker 1: even amongst the medical profession. Um, and certainly it is

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Speaker 1: not recognized amongst the general population. And until such time

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Speaker 1: as people understand the magnitude of the problem, we're not

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Speaker 1: going to get a solution to it. Because the solution

429
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 1: is not just uh located in the medical profession. It's

430
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: not just located uh in the public. It's frankly, it's

431
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: gonna end and require education in the schools. It's going

432
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: to require the physicians, it's going to require the law enforcement.

433
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 1: It's going to require uh, the appreciation of this by

434
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: legis legislators. Uh. So all of society has to begin

435
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,199
Speaker 1: to understand what it is, how serious it is, and

436
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 1: and um the METI factorial approach to fixing it. Do

437
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: you blame doctors? I mean, we we all perceive I know, Dr. Costco,

438
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: if you're gonna be nice on this, But the fact is,

439
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: David and I and everyone we know perceives quality or

440
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: levels of doctors. Is there a part of the doctor

441
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: during industry that's really been wrong on opioids? Well, I

442
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 1: think all of us frankly, did not appreciate the magnitude

443
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 1: of the problem. We didn't understand how addictive the drugs were.

444
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: We didn't understand, uh the propensity that some people have

445
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: to get easily addicted to some of these and uh

446
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: so it's a process of education, educating us as a profession,

447
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: and uh so we certainly are culpable or part of

448
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: the issue we uh We talked to Dr Krueger yesterday

449
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: is as we've mentioned, and one of the things he

450
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: said is Washington's very good at convening meetings. You can

451
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: get stakeholders to the table. We can talk about these issues,

452
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 1: we can outline how big a problem it is. But

453
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: solutions are another thing entirely. Imagine you've thought about what

454
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: could be done differently or should be done going forward.

455
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 1: Is it going to be something that emanates from this

456
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 1: the nation's capital. Is it going to be done at

457
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: the state, local level? What could make a market change here?

458
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: And what we're seeing, Well, first of all, you know,

459
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: I think it has to be all of these. Uh

460
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: you know, let me tell you what we've done locally.

461
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: We've begun to enter into reducing the amount of uh

462
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: pain medications that we give to our patients. The state

463
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: has now said that you get a seven day for

464
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 1: adults uh in five days of prescription for children. UH.

465
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: We have made it easier to understand about how people

466
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: have had a successive prescriptions and so we uh so

467
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,239
Speaker 1: we can get that from the electronic medical record. We

468
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: have begun to have education both for the community and

469
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: uh for our physicians. We've begun to look at uh narcan,

470
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: which is the antidote for overdose, and make that so

471
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: you can get it without a prescription, UM and all.

472
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: And we've begin to expand our treatments UH locations and

473
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: capabilities to deal with people who are addicted. So that's

474
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: sort of what's going on and the local ground level.

475
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: Obviously Washington can help a lot with dancing and by

476
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: being um a voice about the magnitude of the problem,

477
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: particularly coming from the president. UM. But uh so it's

478
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: going to I think there's lots of things that can

479
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: come together. It can begin to help. I've got about

480
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 1: thirty seconds left here. When somebody becomes addicted to these

481
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: kinds of drugs, what is it like to get off of?

482
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 1: How do you? How do you how do you begin

483
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: to do it? Well? First, of all, I think you

484
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: have to understand the problem and have to enter into

485
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: a treatment. Uh. And treatment really is, depending on the

486
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: magnitude of the problem, can be drug assisted UM and

487
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: that's has been increasingly successful for people who have done that.

488
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: Talk to Tubacatro, thank you very much for the time

489
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: today joining us. Who knows the shock of the deficits.

490
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: Douglas Holtz, he can he joins us on her phone

491
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: lines or olds he can anything to talk about here.

492
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: But I guess we go to the deficit. You have

493
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: a vector of deficit to GDP growth that borders on frightening.

494
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: Is anyone in Washington where of where our deficit to

495
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: GDP is heading? I'd say people are aware of. The

496
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,959
Speaker 1: Congressional Budget Office has issued numerous reports, including the Long

497
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: Term Budget Outlook, that paying a pretty dire picture, but

498
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: it hasn't risen to the level of action so far.

499
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: And the fundamental action that is needed is something which

500
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 1: puts so Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the Affordable Care Act at

501
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: the large federal health and retirement programs on a sustainable trajectory.

502
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: Right now, so Security scheduled to have to cut benefits

503
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: across the board under two decades. That's a bad way

504
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: to run a retirement program, and it's a disservice to

505
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: the overall economy to have a big deficit. The Wall

506
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: Street Journal reports this morning the stuff of Douglas holes

507
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: Heekins nightmares. One and a half trillion dollar tax cut.

508
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: Uh that isn't paid for? Uh is what happened to

509
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: the Republican Party. Didn't you used to be a Republican

510
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: I mean, the Republican party with the deficit party at all?

511
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: Where did those people go? I think they're still out there,

512
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: But there is a division, uh, certainly in the folks

513
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: who are running the House, sent in the White House

514
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: right now. There's no evidence from his campaign that the

515
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: president is concerned at all about budget deficits. When he

516
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: announced his candidacy, I remember distinctly him saying, I'm not

517
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 1: going to touch so security, I'm not gonna touch Medicare.

518
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go get the money. I don't know

519
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: what that means, but certainly, any reasonable assessment of the

520
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: fisc Closs says that you're going to have to make

521
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: sensible modifications of those programs. It's an imperative. So you know,

522
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: the president sets the tone in any administration and in

523
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: any UM Washington, and that's an important issue right now.

524
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: Douglas seekin with this, the American Action Forum president, obviously

525
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: former director of the CBO. But we all knew that

526
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: Mike Rickie Alice Rivlin will join us on our FETE

527
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: show tomorrow. Excellent. Well, and she invented it and the

528
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: whole silly you can kick the thing forward. I'm not

529
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: sure that she would disagree with doug on the budget deficits. Uh,

530
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: there is an argument monetary modern monetary theory. They're having

531
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: a big convention UM next week, next month UM out

532
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: in Kansas City. The people the adherence to this that

533
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,239
Speaker 1: suggests that because we have a printing press and we

534
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: have a fiat currency, we can live with these deficits.

535
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: It's not really a problem. And Uh, in essence, you

536
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: can if you want to consider it monetization. The only

537
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: thing you have to be careful of his inflation. So,

538
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: given the experience of the Obama administration and the big

539
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: deficits that were run up in trying to get out

540
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: of the the Great Recession, why just for the sake

541
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: of argument, couldn't we have a tax cut like they're

542
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: talking about and a deficit like they're talking about and

543
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: still survive it. So I think in the end, you

544
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: can't decide now whether you like or dislike the rumors

545
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: of a trillion and a half dollar additional deficit over

546
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: the next ten years. That does depend on the quality

547
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: of the tax policy. UH. There's no question that the

548
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: US is growing poorly. It's transford activity growth is too low. UH,

549
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: standard of living is rising too slowly. UH. Some combination

550
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: of regulatory reforms, tax reforms, UH, and infrastructure and education

551
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: are probably the best recipe. So we'll see what gets

552
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: proposed there and I'll reserve judgment on that. But I

553
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: think you have to always think about the death at

554
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: very differently. At this point in the cycle, we are

555
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: essentially at full employment by any measure, versus when you

556
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: had ten percent unemployment. Those are very different animals. These

557
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: deficits are far more difficult to get rid of, and

558
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 1: they're more important to get rid of. Michael mckaway US,

559
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: you only agree because the Denver Broncos are doing better

560
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: than good and Mike, it's always a good time to

561
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: speak to Dr whole Skin. Douglas hold Skin the American

562
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: action for him, we talked about a vector for the

563
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: deficit to GDP. Uh, Doug, is it a different vector?

564
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: Is the makeup of our growing deficit to GDP different

565
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: than the last time we did this ballet. Each time

566
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: we do this, it becomes more and more a story

567
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: that's just about the entitlement programs. I mean, if you

568
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: go back to success in balancing the budget in the

569
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: late nineties, that was largely accomplished by a the dot

570
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: com bubble. I don't think we want to have a

571
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: big bubble again. Be caps on discretionary spending, the annual

572
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: decisions by Congress. And we're in a very different world now.

573
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: We're we're in a world where two thirds of the

574
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: budget is so security, Medicare and Medicaid, federal health programs. Uh,

575
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: those programs are growing faster at rates like six and seven.

576
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: Then you could plausibly have revenue grow, which is about

577
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: four percent nominal. And in the end, those pro grams

578
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: are growing so rapidly that they're really pushing out of

579
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: the budget national defense, basic research, infrastructure, education, all the

580
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: things our founders saw as the role of government. So

581
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: we have a real problem both on the top line

582
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: this nash Treen revenue and spending and in the composition

583
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: of the budget when you look at those entitlement programs,

584
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: do you have it? I suppose this is a naive question.

585
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: Stan Collender would say, there you go, thinking logically again, Um,

586
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: that's illegal in Washington, didn't do that. Do you have

587
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: any hope that as uh, maybe misquoting WC. Fields are

588
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: missing attributing this, but the the nearness of a hanging

589
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: may concentrate the mind. Do you think that we will

590
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: see any action over the next few years in terms

591
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: of the the the entitlement programs? Well, I mean really

592
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: two thoughts in that. The first is how important it

593
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: is to move quickly, because it takes a long time

594
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: to change those programs, and and changes have to be

595
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: faced and people have to know what the deal is

596
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: on their retirement for examp of Well, so there is

597
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: some you know, urgency in my mind that's making some

598
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: steps forward. And if you don't, the only thing you'll

599
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: be able to do to close the deficit in the

600
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: crisis jack of taxes. And generally you're in a crisis

601
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: because the economy is not performing well, and that's gonna

602
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: be the wrong time to be doing that. So you

603
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: want to avoid that that sort of constellation of problems

604
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: by getting going. Now, the one thing we did see

605
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 1: this year was the House and the Senate take up

606
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: healthcare bills, and if you look inside those bills, those

607
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: were major reforms of two entitled programs, Medicaid and the

608
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: Affordable Care Act. Whether you like those reforms or not,

609
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: and that's a different debate. The fact that they took

610
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: up entitle reform I think was really a tremendously important thing.

611
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: It looks like the sentence trying to revive that effort.

612
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any real reason to be be

613
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: optimistically getting done, but we do need to take on

614
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: these rising spending programs and do it in a way

615
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: that's sensible for the beneficiaries. Well, speaking of the entitlement

616
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: programs in healthcare, you just mentioned, it looks like the

617
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: the dead have arisen in Washington. Graham Cassidy, Uh, It's

618
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: sort of two questions about this. But first, um, what

619
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: do you think the odds are that the Senate would

620
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 1: actually pass this? Oh? I think they're they're well less

621
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: than fifty as we speak. But there has been a

622
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: remarkable change in sentiments on the ground in the past week.

623
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 1: I think even last Friday, there was no real reason

624
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: to believe that Graham Cassidy was other than an exercise

625
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: by its authors. But Republicans in the Senate have heard

626
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: repeatedly from the people back home that they're unhappy with

627
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: their failure. They're hearing from the donors that they're unhappy

628
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: with their failure, and they are now serious about taking

629
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: this back up. And that that's a sea change for

630
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: me even a week ago. And I'm quite surprised by that.

631
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: So we'll see how it evolves. I still don't see

632
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: how it gets over the finish line, but um, the

633
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: fact that they're even taking it up, I think is important. U.

634
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: Let me follow that up with this question here and

635
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: talking about the tax reform and the healthcare programs. Senator

636
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: John Kennedy, this is not the old John, obviously, Senator

637
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: from Louisiana. Yes, he said, he's quoted in the Wall

638
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 1: Street Journalist Morning quote. For every economist, there's an equal

639
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: and opposite economist, and they're usually wrong. Do you think

640
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: the financial crisis did such damage to the reputation of

641
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: economists that politicians feel completely free now to ignore whatever

642
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: recommendations and economists may come up with if if it

643
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: doesn't fit their preconceived idea. I don't know if it

644
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: was just the financial crisis, but I do think you know,

645
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: during the course of my career, I've been concerned that

646
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: economists have oversold their capacity to forecast the economy, forecast

647
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: the impact of policy changes, and basically fine tuned business

648
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: cycles from Washington that that's never been a big success,

649
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: and they're a long track record of of failure in

650
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: that front. The financial crisis. Don't saw that comming out.

651
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 1: I don't think that's helped um, but you know, it's

652
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: it's not just economists. You you could also appeal to

653
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 1: your common sense and uh, some of the things that

654
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 1: are that are going on. For example, having a projection

655
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: in the in the budget where interest on public borrowing

656
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: will be the third largest program in the federal budget

657
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: in ten years. I mean, that doesn't take it consteralize. Jeez,

658
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: you're tying up all the money on just paying interest.

659
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: This is an important insight, Mike, thank you to bring

660
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: this up, and we consider Sender Kennedy to be of

661
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: great value when he speaks with Bloomberg Surveillance, Doug, I'm

662
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: going to disagree with the polarity of economists. There's one

663
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: guy over there, there's another woman over there. They don't agree,

664
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: and it makes for great TV or radio. The fact is,

665
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: is a common central tendency to economists on a Venn diagram.

666
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: There's a lot of commonality between John Taylor Stanford and

667
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: Paul Krugman of Princeton. And the issue is within the

668
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: crisis that central tendency was so far off I would

669
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: go to the center rather than the polarities at Senator

670
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: Kennedy brings up, I think that's a fair comment. I

671
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: really do. I mean mccamas builds do agree, and um,

672
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: the places where they don't agree get the most attention.

673
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: And quite frankly, the notion that somehow e commists are

674
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: uniquely equipped to to do forecasting, I think it's misplaced.

675
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean forecasting the teacher isn't hard like this is

676
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: critically important? Is not? A Rabenia stated what everybody got

677
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: wrong was the amplitudes. A lot of people predicted it,

678
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: but we completely missed the sign functions, the amplitudes of

679
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: these shocks and the crisis. Question From a listener here,

680
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: Tom uh for doug as Congress considers fiscal policy and

681
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: they're looking at gigantic tax cuts as as it um.

682
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: They want to know which stimulus works best. I mean

683
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: the government can buy things, can increase transfer payments we're

684
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: talking about that, can cut taxes. Uh, can use corporate

685
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: tax provisions. Um. What would be the best thing, the

686
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: most effective thing to boost growth? So, Uh, this is

687
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: not a stimulus um moment. We are essentially at full employment.

688
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: There are very few opportunities for low hanging fruit where

689
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: you put people back to work and do Keynesian style stimulus.

690
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: This has to be genuinely focused on the supply side

691
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: of the economy and raising the trend rate of growth

692
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: and and doing that by raising productivity growth. So what

693
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 1: is interesting about this set of discussions about tax formers.

694
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 1: They are very much focused on the business tax issues

695
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: and on the capacity of businesses to invest, innovate, do

696
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: it in the United States and and higher workers and

697
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 1: agin them raises. Uh. That's the key, and that's that's

698
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: the test by which you should judge the tax proposals.

699
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: If it's provide cash individuals to go out and spend,

700
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: there's not gonna be much out of that. That has

701
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: no no lasting impact on the economy. Thank you so much,

702
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: Douglas huls A good generous of you to be with

703
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 1: us this morning with the American action for him. Michael

704
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: McKee is at the exit stage right, and it's good

705
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: to have Mrs Lund Chris with us joining us now

706
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: Scarlet Food of of fame and fortune. Tomorrow we have

707
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: our fed day Scarlet Food leading our coverage with Bill

708
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: Gross every two PM as well. But now is a

709
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: lovely annual visit. We treasure this visit with a guy

710
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: fourteen years in of building hockey from a comedy of

711
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: four hundred some whatever the small amount of money was

712
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: into a billion dollar business. I want to ask one question.

713
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: I know Scarlett really wants to drive forward the present

714
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 1: business converse station where you are now, what's the next

715
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: stage for NHL. You had your huge Canadian TV deal,

716
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: you this success of NBC up sports hockey. What's the

717
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: next big commissioner like transaction for you. Well, first of all,

718
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: it's good to be with you for our annual visit.

719
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: And I know time flies when you're having fun, but

720
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: it's actually been twenty four plus years through a decade.

721
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: He's okay, you know, it's you get to be our

722
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: age every year matters. Uh, We're very excited about the

723
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: start of the season. UH. For us, the opportunities presented

724
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: by digital platforms and the social media really gives us

725
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,439
Speaker 1: a way to connect with our fans. Our fans tend

726
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: to be very tech savvy, very avid, and since historically,

727
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: and I'm now talking thirty years ago, we were underserved

728
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: by traditional media, the current landscape gives us a lot

729
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: of great opportunities. Secondly, we currently have two teams in

730
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: China and the opportunity to grow the game worldwide. There

731
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: are a lot of places throughout the world where hockey

732
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: is already strong. Roughly of our players come from outside

733
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: and Mr would suggest that would be as Sweden actually

734
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: is the largest exporter of NHL players. And I'm out

735
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: of touch. Is Yager in a uniform this year? Not yet?

736
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: Are you working on that? I don't work on that

737
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,879
Speaker 1: is saying that it's a good there's a good chance

738
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: we'll see No, No, I don't know. I don't know.

739
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: He doesn't have a contract. And he's a great ambassador

740
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: for the game. He's one of the great players of

741
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: the game. And we'll see if he hooks onto those

742
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: of you globally. Not a hockey. Yeremi Hugger is two.

743
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: You can still quite that Charlett. He works harder than

744
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: any other twenty year old player. You talked about digital platforms.

745
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 1: The NHL streamed a handful of games on Twitter last season.

746
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: What did you learn from that experience, what worked, what

747
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: needs to be tweaked refined? Well, the the issue I

748
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: think ultimately is going to be not just taking broad

749
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: cast content and stream it. It's whether or not, Uh,

750
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: some of the social media or other digital companies decide

751
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: that they're gonna produce games differently. That may be directed

752
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: more to the way that excuse me, perhaps that's a

753
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: surveillance sneeze that perhaps millennials and Gen z s will

754
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: want to consume the games differently. We don't know that

755
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: that's the case, because frankly, Rogers in Canada and NBC

756
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: in the United States do incredible jobs covering our games.

757
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: But as more and more young people are either cord

758
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: nevers or there are cord cutters, we have to make

759
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: sure that however we're presenting the game is relevant to

760
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: particularly young people. How do E sports fit into that? Then?

761
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: I view E sports as an opportunity for us to

762
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: teach people the game and to use this hockey to them,

763
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: introduce hockey to them, and to create a better sense

764
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: of community. Ultimately, what we're gonna work on is a

765
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: series of competitions where fans of teams will compete against

766
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: each other and have some you know, North American tournament

767
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: that's called engagement. Tom very good, Okay, I didn't. I

768
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: didn't miss that, Gary. You know that I've been a

769
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: critic of the changes in the games. I sometimes want

770
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: to get upset called the National Deflection League, which is

771
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: the only way you can get the party doesn't. What

772
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: are you gonna do to open up the game? You've

773
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: got some guys on NBC that used to play the

774
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,439
Speaker 1: game differently than it's played. Now, what are you gonna

775
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: do to open up the game? And let me start

776
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: with block shots? You got two guys in the ice

777
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 1: gifted defenseman essentially being second and third goalies. Well, in effect,

778
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: our game has what you called deflections because our players

779
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: have never been more skilled. Coches have never been better

780
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: on their system. Having said that, the game has never

781
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: been faster, never in terms of lead changes in the

782
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: game and ability to have the unpredictability we have in

783
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: our season would would we like to see it a

784
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: little more open, perhaps if goaltenders were a little smaller.

785
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: And I don't mean physically, I'm talking about equipment, which

786
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: is something that we're working on that will open up

787
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: more space. Saw well, we we it's a work in

788
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: progress and it's something we do with the Players Association

789
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: and the Unofficial Goaltenders Union, and there's some resistance to

790
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: some of the changes, which we understand because this is

791
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: their livelihood. We we'd like to shrink the equipment, but

792
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: not cause any risk of injury. I know, Scarlett, you've

793
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: got I'm gonna ask one more question on this. I

794
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: don't want you to go back to Gump Worsley. I

795
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: don't want you to go back to me watching Don

796
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 1: Cherry and l Arbor block shots years ago. I want

797
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,439
Speaker 1: you to get back to what Rennick did the guy

798
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: on NBC ron excuse me, Jeremy Ronick A Thay, and

799
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: what he does on NBC, what he did for the

800
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: black Hawks, which is a thirty or forty shot that

801
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,919
Speaker 1: goes by the guy. I would respectfully suggest that's missing. Well.

802
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,959
Speaker 1: You you would be an advocate of bigger nets, which

803
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: would open up more angles, but I'll take a shrunken

804
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 1: goalie equipment. But also physically, the goalies are bigger in

805
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: terms of height and weight than they've ever been. But

806
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,919
Speaker 1: it's not a problem, but it's a trend that we're

807
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: watching and we'll make adjustments. One of the things we're

808
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: doing as well is we're going to heighten the standard

809
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 1: on slashing this year. Please. In the preseason game yesterday

810
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 1: with the Rangers, we don't we don't want broken hands

811
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 1: and fingers, particularly for the skilled players. So a slash

812
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: adder around the hands, we're going to call him more tightly.

813
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: Love it, love it. We're breaking news this morning on

814
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: this Okay, that's not breaking, that's okay. Well, I understand

815
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: you talk about bigger goalies. The players are smaller, they're

816
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: more skilled. I'm thinking of Tyler Wong, who was an

817
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: undrafted rookie still on a minor league contract, played in

818
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 1: the Golden Knights first preseason game How to Hat trick Um,

819
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 1: but his size five nine highlights how much the league

820
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: has changed during your tenure from what was once just

821
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: about size and braun it's speed and skill. The game

822
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: we opened up the game. We we there are two

823
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: things that play. One is because of the system we have,

824
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: all of our teams can afford to be competitive. We

825
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: have extraordinary competitive balance, the best in all of sports.

826
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 1: And if you look at it, last season, seven teams

827
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: made the playoffs that didn't make them the year before.

828
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: And and I like competitive balance. I think it's a

829
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: little more elegant. But but also um, we the four

830
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 1: of the five worst teams from the year before actually

831
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: made the playoffs as well. So no matter who you

832
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,439
Speaker 1: root for, you have hoped that your team can make

833
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: the playoffs. We opened up the game, um in terms

834
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: of how it's called. There's less what they used to

835
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: call obstruction, hooking and holding and clutching and grabbing, and

836
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 1: so if you've got speed and you can got skill,

837
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: you can play this game. Let me ask you a

838
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 1: final question here on the Vegas Golden Nights, Bill Fully,

839
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 1: the owner of the team, has said that his team

840
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: won't be available to bet on it some casinos on

841
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: game day. Is there any plan for the league to

842
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: ask bookies not to take better The answer is, we're

843
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: not concerned about the betting on the game per se.

844
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,479
Speaker 1: There's a lot of betting going on, some of it legal,

845
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: some of it's illegal. What we want to do is

846
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 1: make sure that the environment in the arena is typical

847
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: of what you see at an NHL arena, which is

848
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: fan friendly, kid friendly, and like, we don't want it.

849
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:35,959
Speaker 1: Not that there's anything wrong with it, but we don't

850
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: want it, like, for example, at a race track where

851
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 1: you can go get a ticket and go sit down

852
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: and watch the event. We're looking you know, people are

853
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: gonna bet we don't want to make it part of

854
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: the same experience you mentioned last year in your ute

855
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 1: and wisdom. The resurgence of the Toronto A believes arguably

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Speaker 1: the most valuable sports entity in the world. Some would

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Speaker 1: argue that, but I don't. I'm with them on it.

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Speaker 1: What's your insight this year on this season? Who are

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Speaker 1: you watching? Um, it's it's well, well, what's gonna be

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Speaker 1: interesting is the fact that we provided the Golden Knights

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Speaker 1: with the deepest expansion dract you've ever had, so they

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Speaker 1: will they should be more competitive, be fun to watch.

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Speaker 1: What when you look at our game, the number of

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Speaker 1: young players across the league, whether whether it's Keel and

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Speaker 1: Buffalo or a line a uh in Winnipeg or McDavid

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Speaker 1: and Edmonton or Austin Matthews in Toronto and two or

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Speaker 1: three other young players on each of those teams. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is a young man's game, Gary Batman, thank you,

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Speaker 1: congratulations on another NHL season. Thanks for listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: or whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at

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00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: Tom Keene. David Gura is at David Gura. Before the podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can always catch us worldwide. I'm Bloomberg Radio