1
00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:08,760
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,200
Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema.

3
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,919
Speaker 3: This is Rob Lamb and this is Joe McCormick, and

4
00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,920
Speaker 3: we're back with the second of our two part series

5
00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,880
Speaker 3: on the nineteen ninety eight sci fi noir film Dark City,

6
00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,520
Speaker 3: directed by Alex Proyas, starring rufus Sewell, Jennifer Connolly, William

7
00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 3: hurt Keefer Sutherland, and Richard O'Brien. As we discussed last time,

8
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,280
Speaker 3: we rarely split Weird House Cinema features into two parts,

9
00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,800
Speaker 3: but we ended up having a lot to say about

10
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,479
Speaker 3: Dark City, particularly, I think because of the coincidence that

11
00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 3: Rob and I both had this movie pegged as one

12
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,960
Speaker 3: of our absolute favorites when we were young adults. I

13
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 3: know I would have put it in my top five

14
00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,680
Speaker 3: when I was eighteen years old, but it had been

15
00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,120
Speaker 3: a long time since either of us had revisited it,

16
00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,200
Speaker 3: so it's interesting to see it again now with older eyes.

17
00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,680
Speaker 2: Yes, coincidence or did we simply have the same memories

18
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 2: injected in this late one night when the city changes.

19
00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,720
Speaker 3: Good question, And of course, as we said last time,

20
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,400
Speaker 3: this is a spoiler laden discussion, so if you haven't

21
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,480
Speaker 3: seen the movie and would like to see it without

22
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,839
Speaker 3: having everything ruined yet, check it out first.

23
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,720
Speaker 2: I also want to add that, in a little bit

24
00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,120
Speaker 2: of pop culture synchronicity as well, there's an element in

25
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,360
Speaker 2: Dark City that is explored in a different way in

26
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,800
Speaker 2: the new Vince Gilligan series Pluribus. No spoilers from me,

27
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 2: especially since Joe hasn't watched any of it yet and

28
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,479
Speaker 2: there are only two episodes out, but I'm really digging it.

29
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,200
Speaker 2: So if you out there, if you have watched Dark

30
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,120
Speaker 2: City and you are watching Pluribus, I would like to

31
00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,480
Speaker 2: hear from you in the future, maybe when we get

32
00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,920
Speaker 2: into like spoiler safe territory on that show.

33
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,520
Speaker 3: I look forward to watching that one when we've got

34
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:56,840
Speaker 3: a time for a show again.

35
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,680
Speaker 2: All right. Previously on Dark City.

36
00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,200
Speaker 3: Right, So, last time we narrated the opening scenes of

37
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,600
Speaker 3: the film, which contain a really great plot hook. So

38
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,720
Speaker 3: to briefly summarize, our protagonist, who we will come to

39
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,639
Speaker 3: find out is named John Murdoch, wakes up naked in

40
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,120
Speaker 3: a bathtub in a strange hotel room with total amnesia.

41
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,839
Speaker 3: He does not know who he is, where he came from,

42
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,400
Speaker 3: or how he got there. However, he quickly pieces together

43
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,880
Speaker 3: a number of clues, mostly disturbing clues. He is bleeding

44
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 3: from a small puncture wound on his forehead. There is

45
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,520
Speaker 3: a shattered syringe on the floor, and he finds among

46
00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,000
Speaker 3: what are apparently his things, a postcard for a place

47
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 3: called Shell Beach, which triggers a flash of a memory

48
00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,440
Speaker 3: from his boyhood, a memory of running out of a

49
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 3: seaside house into the daylight and looking out over the waves,

50
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:53,520
Speaker 3: but he can't recall anything else.

51
00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,160
Speaker 2: I love the syringes, by the way, we didn't mention this,

52
00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,680
Speaker 2: but the design of these syringes that they feel suitably

53
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,880
Speaker 2: like an antique from a slightly alternate dimension. Yeah, and

54
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 2: they have a great feel to them.

55
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 3: They feel like something that would have been used by

56
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 3: doctor John Brinkley or something.

57
00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

58
00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,800
Speaker 3: But anyway, John Murdock discovers there is a mutilated body

59
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,400
Speaker 3: of a dead woman lying beyond his hotel bed, So

60
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,240
Speaker 3: that's not good, and he's left to wonder if he

61
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,359
Speaker 3: is the murderer. He receives a weird, frantic phone call

62
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 3: from a man calling himself doctor Shreeber played by Kiefer Sutherland,

63
00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,760
Speaker 3: who tells him that there was an experiment which malfunctioned

64
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,600
Speaker 3: which caused him to lose his memory, and that there

65
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 3: are people coming for him, so he has to leave

66
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 3: the hotel immediately. So he does, and on the way

67
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:49,080
Speaker 3: out he witnesses something bizarre. It seems everyone in the

68
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,040
Speaker 3: lobby of the hotel is unconscious, as if they passed

69
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 3: out right in the middle of whatever they were doing,

70
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,200
Speaker 3: and all of the clocks are stuck at midnight. Suddenly,

71
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,400
Speaker 3: while he's going through the lobby, the clocks resume ticking,

72
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 3: and the clerk at the front desk wakes up to

73
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,720
Speaker 3: give Murdoch a clue. He says the automat called to

74
00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 3: say he left his wallet and he can go there

75
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 3: to get it. Meanwhile, we also meet the people named

76
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,640
Speaker 3: on the phone call who were coming to look for Murdoch.

77
00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,480
Speaker 3: These are the Strangers, a group of bizarre, frightening men

78
00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,440
Speaker 3: with pale, hairless skin, wearing long fur lined black coats

79
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,600
Speaker 3: and black hats. This group seems to be led by

80
00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,640
Speaker 3: Richard O'Brien as a stranger named mister Hand, and we

81
00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 3: see these men case the hotel room. They are indeed

82
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 3: eager to find Murdoch, and we also find out in

83
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,920
Speaker 3: this scene that they have super normal powers. For example,

84
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,600
Speaker 3: they can command people to sleep and the people instantly

85
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,359
Speaker 3: fall unconscious. So here we can pick back up with

86
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,359
Speaker 3: the plot recap. I'm not going to narrate the whole

87
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 3: film seen by scene in detail like we do with

88
00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,640
Speaker 3: some movies. That doesn't quite feel right with Dark City.

89
00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,360
Speaker 3: I think we're going to do that a bit more

90
00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 3: toward the the beginning of the plot and then alternate

91
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,920
Speaker 3: between some broad summary and dwelling on some moments here

92
00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,080
Speaker 3: and there. So after this gripping opening, we meet a

93
00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,719
Speaker 3: new character, Emma Murdoch played by Jennifer Connelly. We first

94
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,719
Speaker 3: meet Emma when she's performing a sultry musical number with

95
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,719
Speaker 3: her band. Emma works as a lounge singer at a

96
00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,360
Speaker 3: club in the city, and I love the atmosphere at

97
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,160
Speaker 3: this club. It's like filled with shadows and the soft

98
00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,240
Speaker 3: chatter of patrons. It's illuminated only about the stage lights

99
00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 3: and then the back lights behind the bar, and these

100
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,240
Speaker 3: soft glowing orbs at the customer's tables.

101
00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,599
Speaker 2: This is one of those nightclub scenes in a film

102
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,120
Speaker 2: where if you second guess yourself and think about it,

103
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,760
Speaker 2: you might ask, is anyone here having a good time.

104
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,919
Speaker 2: It's very laid back. I mean, nobody's screaming in horror,

105
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:56,320
Speaker 2: but it's the vibe is very inward facing. I guess

106
00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,400
Speaker 2: that's common for some scenes, right, I mean, it's kind

107
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,359
Speaker 2: of like shoegaze. Two gays is kind of kind of

108
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,560
Speaker 2: like referring to it being you're looking at your shoes, right,

109
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,240
Speaker 2: that's a whole idea, right.

110
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I think this is a This is a

111
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,000
Speaker 3: quite elegant, stylish bad Times bar.

112
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:11,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

113
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,960
Speaker 3: Now, since we recorded the last episode, we were talking

114
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,560
Speaker 3: a bit about the way the character of Emma Murdoch

115
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,200
Speaker 3: was drawn, and I had some more thoughts about that.

116
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 3: The more I thought about this character, the more she

117
00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 3: seemed to me to actually be a recurring type of

118
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,480
Speaker 3: character from film noir, one that gets less noticed than

119
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,839
Speaker 3: the more famous archetypes like the hard boiled detective or

120
00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,680
Speaker 3: the scheming fem fatale. She's definitely that she noted a detective.

121
00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 3: She's not a fem fatale. I don't know if this

122
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,880
Speaker 3: character type has a name in the literature, but you

123
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 3: might call her something like the melancholy angel. This is

124
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:57,000
Speaker 3: a classically female character who is portrayed as beautiful, mysterious,

125
00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 3: mostly virtuous, soft spoken, and sad, with an aura of

126
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,359
Speaker 3: pity and doom surrounding her. She is, quite often, but

127
00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,440
Speaker 3: not always in the story trapped in a situation where

128
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,600
Speaker 3: she is either in love with or the obsession of,

129
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,640
Speaker 3: a dangerous, unstable and unworthy man who may or may

130
00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:20,680
Speaker 3: not be the end of her.

131
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,040
Speaker 2: That is a good read. Yeah, this is the sort

132
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,960
Speaker 2: of character. This is an archetype that you see in

133
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,119
Speaker 2: these various noir films. Yeah, she's a good person that's

134
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 2: been rather beaten up by an unkind world and maybe

135
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,520
Speaker 2: a brooding detective is her last chance at escape or

136
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 2: or peace, or you know, some sort of answer to

137
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 2: her problems. That's right.

138
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,280
Speaker 3: You can see a lot of versions of this character

139
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,560
Speaker 3: all throughout the history of the genre. There are shades

140
00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,640
Speaker 3: of this with Kim Novak and Vertigo. It's been a

141
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 3: while since I've seen this one, but the movie in

142
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 3: a Lonely Place. I think there's a character sort of

143
00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,440
Speaker 3: like this played by Gloria Graham. I think I get

144
00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,720
Speaker 3: the sense that Emma Murdoch is modeled after this type

145
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,760
Speaker 3: of character, and if so, that would sort of fit

146
00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,680
Speaker 3: with her linkage to John Murdoch in the story who

147
00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,440
Speaker 3: The viewer is left to wonder at this point in

148
00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 3: the plot whether he is or is not a dangerous

149
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,720
Speaker 3: man who butchers women for pleasure.

150
00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

151
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:25,040
Speaker 3: After Emma finishes her set on stage, she is notified

152
00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,440
Speaker 3: of a call from a doctor, Shreeber, who claims he

153
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,640
Speaker 3: is her husband's doctor. She's never heard of him, but

154
00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,400
Speaker 3: she goes to visit Shreeber in his laboratory, where he

155
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 3: explains his belief that her husband, John has suffered a

156
00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,359
Speaker 3: complete mental breakdown. He's lost his memory, he may be delusional,

157
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,040
Speaker 3: even violent, and in any event, he is in dire

158
00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,040
Speaker 3: need of help. Emma admits that she was not aware

159
00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,600
Speaker 3: of any of this because she hasn't seen her husband

160
00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,559
Speaker 3: in three weeks. He stormed out. Schreeber begs her that

161
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,079
Speaker 3: if her husband gets in touch, she has to make

162
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,000
Speaker 3: sure that Shreeber gets to talk to him before anyone else.

163
00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,719
Speaker 3: We also learn in this scene the cause of their separation.

164
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 3: Emma had an affair for which she obviously feels great remorse,

165
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,319
Speaker 3: and John stormed out in a fit of anger when

166
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,440
Speaker 3: he learned the truth. Now, there's an interesting thing going

167
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,680
Speaker 3: on that is the main drama of this scene. But

168
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,520
Speaker 3: there's a second thing happening while he's talking to Emma,

169
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,440
Speaker 3: Shreeber is preoccupied with a task of running a white

170
00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,600
Speaker 3: lab rat through a maze like you might see in

171
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,760
Speaker 3: a psychological experiment, a behavior experiment, but it's a weird maze.

172
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,079
Speaker 3: Instead of the rat finding its way to an exit

173
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,680
Speaker 3: or to a reward, the rat seems to be finding

174
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,400
Speaker 3: its way toward the center of the maze, where the

175
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,600
Speaker 3: walls of the passageway in the maze gradually twist and

176
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,360
Speaker 3: narrow into a spiral shape until the passage is completely closed.

177
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 3: Kind of odd, and it plays it almost clock Emma

178
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,960
Speaker 3: like looking down at this spiral mayze being like, what

179
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,040
Speaker 3: is this about? But she doesn't comment on it, but

180
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,000
Speaker 3: it plays into the visual spiral theme of the film,

181
00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,360
Speaker 3: like the spiral wounds on the murder victim. And there's

182
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,800
Speaker 3: a scene later where Murdoch looks at his fingertips and

183
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,400
Speaker 3: sees a spiral fingerprint pattern. And this is not just

184
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,760
Speaker 3: like in the way that a lot of you know,

185
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 3: fingerprints will have whirls that might look a little bit spirally.

186
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,960
Speaker 3: It's like a straight up, you know, symmetrical spiral. And

187
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,040
Speaker 3: in fact, there's even a scene later where the police

188
00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,520
Speaker 3: are looking at the prints taken from the murder scene,

189
00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 3: and the fingerprints are just spirals, and they're like, what

190
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,160
Speaker 3: is this some kind of joke?

191
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,439
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And then then of course there are other

192
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,000
Speaker 2: ways that they them the mice in a maze. Well,

193
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,160
Speaker 2: we'll take on additional way later on in the film

194
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:51,800
Speaker 2: with some of the revelations.

195
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 3: We get, Yeah, that I was going to ask that question,

196
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 3: does this mean something specific the rat in the spiral maze?

197
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,239
Speaker 3: I guess thinking about the literal re of the experiment,

198
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,199
Speaker 3: it would be that the rat cannot see where it's going.

199
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,680
Speaker 3: The rat thinks it is navigating around corners and down

200
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 3: passageways in order to reach a goal of some kind,

201
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,600
Speaker 3: but all the passageways ultimately lead to a narrowing aperture

202
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,160
Speaker 3: that goes nowhere. So there is a suggestion of struggling

203
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,040
Speaker 3: towards something that doesn't actually exist, or labor within an

204
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,760
Speaker 3: incomprehensible system that has no actual payoffs, just a big

205
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,040
Speaker 3: joke leading to nothing. After this scene, we briefly follow

206
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 3: John Murdock as he walks alone through the empty streets

207
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,560
Speaker 3: at night, trying to recall his own first name, and

208
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,360
Speaker 3: there's a nice moment where He practices different names in

209
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 3: front of his reflection in a dress shop window to

210
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 3: see what feels right, but nothing really lands. Next we

211
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,479
Speaker 3: meet another main character. This is the introduction of Inspector

212
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 3: Frank Bumstead, played by William Hurt. This is the character

213
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 3: that I've read was originally going to be the main

214
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,240
Speaker 3: character of the story in our earlier drafts or earlier

215
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 3: ideas of how the story would go before it shifted

216
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,080
Speaker 3: to being about John Murdoch. But I would kind of

217
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,040
Speaker 3: like to see that version of the film. What would

218
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,760
Speaker 3: the same story be like, but told entirely from Bumstead's perspective?

219
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like, what's the rest of Bumstead's world? Because

220
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,959
Speaker 2: you know, we don't know him as a protagonist, we

221
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,720
Speaker 2: know him as a as a major supporting character. So

222
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:26,880
Speaker 2: but then, can we get into one of the problems

223
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,080
Speaker 2: we faced with any of these characters, how much do

224
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,360
Speaker 2: we really know about them? How much of what we

225
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:36,280
Speaker 2: think we know about them is even real? Is? It

226
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,640
Speaker 2: is a tricky film to ask those questions about.

227
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,160
Speaker 3: That's right. So Bumstead is another interesting variation on a

228
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,960
Speaker 3: film nor archetype. I'd say he's about seventy five percent

229
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 3: hard boiled detective he does have the tropes of he's

230
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 3: seen it all, he never gets excited, somewhat cynical, nothing

231
00:12:54,520 --> 00:13:00,480
Speaker 3: shocks him. In personal affect, he is ironic, terse, clever,

232
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,920
Speaker 3: and attentive to details. But also, I mentioned this last time,

233
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,800
Speaker 3: he doesn't quite have that hard, self interested or amoral

234
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,560
Speaker 3: edge we see in a lot of Noar detectives. Ultimately,

235
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,920
Speaker 3: Bumstead I think comes off as a pretty reasonable and

236
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,040
Speaker 3: even selfless guy.

237
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. Would you say if he's not hard boiled, if

238
00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,040
Speaker 2: he's like seventy five percent hard boiled, would you say

239
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 2: he's a jammy egg.

240
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,680
Speaker 3: He's a saft boiled Yeah, goes in your ramen. Okay, yeah,

241
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,599
Speaker 3: that's nice. Oh maybe maybe soy marinated.

242
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:32,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

243
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,880
Speaker 3: So when we first meet him, he's about to receive

244
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,800
Speaker 3: a call to come check out the crime scene at

245
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,880
Speaker 3: the hotel, but before his phone rings, he is sitting

246
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,760
Speaker 3: alone in his apartment playing the accordion in the dark,

247
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,760
Speaker 3: and we pan over his things and see a framed

248
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,880
Speaker 3: photograph of a woman that looks like an old timey photograph,

249
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,520
Speaker 3: So we assume that maybe this photo is of his mother,

250
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,160
Speaker 3: But he's just yeah, alone in his apartment in the dark,

251
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,640
Speaker 3: playing music. On the accordion, and it's a what style

252
00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,360
Speaker 3: of music is it? It sounds kind of French somehow.

253
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it definitely has a kind of French sound. No,

254
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,679
Speaker 2: not that I really know what I'm talking about with

255
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,040
Speaker 2: the chordian music, but yeah, it does have that vibe

256
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,319
Speaker 2: to it. Later we learned that this I want to say,

257
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,480
Speaker 2: rather large accordion. He travels with it like all the time.

258
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,160
Speaker 2: It's in the back of his vac car vack seat

259
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,080
Speaker 2: of his car while he's out on the job, which

260
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 2: was interesting and maybe doesn't doesn't invite close scrutiny, but

261
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 2: I don't know. I like a weird detail like that.

262
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it is a strange detail that he plays

263
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 3: the accordion at all. It's a little more artsy fartsy

264
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,680
Speaker 3: than your average movie detective.

265
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,080
Speaker 2: Now are we in full spoil spoiler mode at this point?

266
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we have been.

267
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I just want to spoiler totally.

268
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean that could be that the memories

269
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,360
Speaker 2: that have been injected into him, maybe they injected a

270
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,440
Speaker 2: little accordion player and they're just seeing how it fits. Yeah,

271
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,760
Speaker 2: or true? Is there like is he accordion player to

272
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,160
Speaker 2: the core and they inject like he's actually an accordion

273
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,760
Speaker 2: player in his heart of hearts, and they just keep

274
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,080
Speaker 2: injecting soft boiled detective into him to see how it fits.

275
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 2: Or they're injecting hard boiled and the accordion in his

276
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,440
Speaker 2: already accordion player in his soul is softening him up

277
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:14,680
Speaker 2: a bit.

278
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,320
Speaker 3: This is a really good question because there are other

279
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 3: clues in the movie that sometimes characters muscle memory may

280
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,680
Speaker 3: not come along the way it's supposed to do with

281
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,000
Speaker 3: their cognitive memories, So like somebody has given an identity

282
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,640
Speaker 3: as a married person, but actually we get a scene

283
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,440
Speaker 3: later where Bumstead comments to Emma. He says, I noticed

284
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,160
Speaker 3: you seem uncomfortable with your wedding ring. How long have

285
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 3: you been married? She says four years, And he says,

286
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,800
Speaker 3: you seem as if you're unaccustomed to wearing it, and

287
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,600
Speaker 3: she says, I never take it off. So that is

288
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,360
Speaker 3: she's not lying, She's we assume she's being true to

289
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 3: her memory, but she may actually be uncomfortable with a

290
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 3: ring because maybe two days before her body was not

291
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,040
Speaker 3: wearing one, even though she has a memory of having

292
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:01,920
Speaker 3: always worn one.

293
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the things too that makes it

294
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,880
Speaker 2: interesting to think about this, the plot detail about Emma

295
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,520
Speaker 2: having had an affair, because without.

296
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:12,600
Speaker 3: You didn't do that as far as we can.

297
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And that's because if you don't know the

298
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,840
Speaker 2: twist yet and you're taking in the story and the character,

299
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,800
Speaker 2: it'll feel paper thin, because it's like we have no idea,

300
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,600
Speaker 2: like what her side of the story is, why did

301
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 2: she have an affair and so forth. I just it's

302
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 2: not richly supported. And in another film that would be

303
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,200
Speaker 2: more of a flaw here, I mean, it would seem

304
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,320
Speaker 2: to be part of the experiment, like that's that she

305
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 2: didn't actually have an affair that was implanted in her,

306
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,040
Speaker 2: and that's why it doesn't seem to fit her, and

307
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,960
Speaker 2: that's why she's still the Melancholi angel or one of

308
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:45,640
Speaker 2: the reasons.

309
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 3: That's a good point. You can ask a lot of

310
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,960
Speaker 3: interesting questions like that about the movie. So what is intended?

311
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,960
Speaker 3: But anyway, coming back to the I brought up the

312
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 3: idea of her being uncomfortable physically uncomfortable with her wedding ring,

313
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,680
Speaker 3: even though she her cognitive memory is that she has

314
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,240
Speaker 3: long been married and always warn the ring. You could

315
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 3: ask that about like physical practice with things, So if

316
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:12,439
Speaker 3: Bumstead is physically practiced at the accordion, like, is that

317
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,720
Speaker 3: something that in the movies vision you could implant with

318
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,919
Speaker 3: the implanted memories or is that something that would be

319
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,879
Speaker 3: muscle memory kind of carried over from another life?

320
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And then yet, to what extent does our

321
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,960
Speaker 2: knowledge of memories and the different types of memories and

322
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,159
Speaker 2: there's different memory systems in play, how much does that

323
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 2: apply here? Or you know, we're dealing with a rougher

324
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,720
Speaker 2: artistic idea of memory and identity.

325
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. So after the scene, Bumstead goes to the hotel

326
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,879
Speaker 3: and puts together some clues based on the hotel registry.

327
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,960
Speaker 3: He identifies Murdoch as a prime suspect and the murders.

328
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,680
Speaker 3: We learned that there have been many women killed over

329
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 3: the past three weeks, all with the same mo I

330
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,760
Speaker 3: guess the spirals. But Bumstead notices some other things at

331
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,160
Speaker 3: the scene, like the fact that after a glass fish

332
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,520
Speaker 3: bowl shattered, Murdoch obviously picked up the goldfish and put

333
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,119
Speaker 3: it in the bath water so it wouldn't die, And

334
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 3: he asks one of the other cops on the scene,

335
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,880
Speaker 3: what kind of killer stops to save a dying goldfish?

336
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,160
Speaker 3: In this scene, we also briefly glimpse a character named Woolynsky.

337
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 3: Wallensky was the previous detective investigating this string of murders.

338
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,560
Speaker 3: Bumstead just inherited the case, apparently because Wollnsky had recently

339
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,480
Speaker 3: lost his mind. Wolensky comes charging down the hall and

340
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,240
Speaker 3: on the hotel floor, insisting that they're watching us and

341
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 3: there's no way out. It seems like paranoid rantings, and

342
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,399
Speaker 3: he's restrained by other officers. Later, we see Bumstead go

343
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 3: into Wolnsky's office at the station to get his notes

344
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,119
Speaker 3: on the case. But Wilensky's office is just a mess

345
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,400
Speaker 3: of papers and nonsensical drawings, just madness, and Bumstead says,

346
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 3: I'm being punished for my sins.

347
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 2: He's using like set mouse traps as bookmarks, yes, or

348
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 2: they're filed away files. Yeah, But anyway.

349
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 3: At the end of all this, we get the setup

350
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,880
Speaker 3: that because Bumstead knows Murdock's identity, he can now look

351
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,439
Speaker 3: up Emma to see what she knows. But actually first

352
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,200
Speaker 3: she comes to him. She tries to file a missing

353
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,480
Speaker 3: person's report about her husband and ends up getting routed

354
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 3: to Bumbstead. They talk and she learns that her husband

355
00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,119
Speaker 3: is the suspect in a string of six or seven murderers.

356
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 3: She does not seem to believe that he's the killer.

357
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 3: But this is the scene where we get the discussion

358
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 3: about you seem uncomfortable with your ring. Now, after this,

359
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,920
Speaker 3: we go on to the Automat scene, which we sort

360
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,919
Speaker 3: of built up last time. We got the clue that

361
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 3: John Murdoch left his wallet at the Automat and he's

362
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 3: going to go there to pick it up. As I

363
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 3: said in the previous episode, for some reason, I just

364
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,639
Speaker 3: love the Automat. Yeah, nothing all that remarkable happens in

365
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,199
Speaker 3: the scene, so I don't want to build it up

366
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,120
Speaker 3: like it's a you know, the stunning set piece. It's

367
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 3: just always one of the first things that comes to

368
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 3: mind when I think about this movie. I think about

369
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 3: the Automat and the little things behind the glass.

370
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd forgotten about this scene personally, but it was

371
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:18,919
Speaker 2: great to revisit it because I love it. I love

372
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 2: the idea of the Automat. It's just so it's antiquated

373
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,400
Speaker 2: and weird, and yet we even though it's not something

374
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 2: with some caveats here that we have in our modern

375
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,880
Speaker 2: world anymore, you can understand the appeal. You can understand

376
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,800
Speaker 2: the draw towards it, and it also fits nicely in

377
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 2: the time period, in part because of the historic reality

378
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,879
Speaker 2: of the thing, but also when you start breaking it apart,

379
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 2: it works rather well in this film and in this timeframe.

380
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 3: So just in case you don't know what is an automat,

381
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 3: imagine a cross between a restaurant and a vending machine. Basically,

382
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 3: it's like a restaurant or a cafeteria wherein intead of

383
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,680
Speaker 3: placing an order through a human and having your food

384
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 3: brought to you or picking up your food, you look

385
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,159
Speaker 3: at a bunch of food and drink options stored in

386
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 3: these little cubby holes behind glass doors, and you can

387
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 3: insert coins to open the glass doors and take the

388
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 3: food with you. So it's like the principle of a

389
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 3: vending machine, but operated usually within a brick and mortar,

390
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 3: you know, restaurant space, and you might have a space

391
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 3: to go eat your food.

392
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 2: It is such a thought provoking concept, Like I legitimately

393
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 2: love it so much because it is in a way

394
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 2: it is a restaurant trying to be a modern vending machine,

395
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,719
Speaker 2: like we have vending, Like you can find some very

396
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 2: nice upscale vending machines that say, airports, and you can

397
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 2: find some crappy ones at airports too, obviously, but I've

398
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 2: seen some very upscale ones that have like little fresh

399
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 2: looking things and jars and so forth that you can

400
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,400
Speaker 2: get out of out of them. And it's so it's

401
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 2: kind of like a restaurant, brick and mortar restaurant with

402
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 2: a kitchen, creating the illusion of food that is completely automated,

403
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 2: food that has never been touched by human hands, kind

404
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 2: of attempting to give you a feel of a technological

405
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 2: future that has been promised but is not really yet

406
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: completely possible and or attainable.

407
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 3: That's an interesting idea that there's some element of futurism

408
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 3: in the concept of the automat. Sometimes they do have

409
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 3: a bit of futurism in the design, Like obviously not

410
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 3: a lot of automats still exist, but these would be,

411
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 3: you know, some kind of thing that was there in

412
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 3: the nineteen forties or whatever and had this mid century

413
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 3: retro futuristic look.

414
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and yeah it's automated. Put your coin in

415
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 2: open a little compartment, get the item that you choose,

416
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: and you get to see it through the window before

417
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 2: you get it. I was refreshing about the history a

418
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 2: little bit here, and we're not going to get into

419
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: all of it, but the short story is that it's

420
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 2: essentially a late nineteenth century invention. The first one open

421
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 2: in eighteen ninety five. The concept spread through Europe and

422
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: then made its way over to America during the first

423
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 2: decade of the twentieth century. In a Dining Experience to

424
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: Remember a Brief History of the Automat by Colleen Kim

425
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 2: for Hai, the author points out that during this period,

426
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,199
Speaker 2: automats had this kind of unique reputation. It was an

427
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 2: inexpensive way to get your food compared to other options,

428
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 2: but at the same time, it was never seedy. It

429
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: was a place where unescorted women could dine, you could

430
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 2: bring children there, and she definitely drives home. Yeah, this

431
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 2: presentation gave diners this feeling of cutting edge modernity. At

432
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 2: the time, despite all these recent technological advancements, most people

433
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 2: did not have a refrigerator at home or various other

434
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 2: modern kitchen innovations, and the automat, in a kind of

435
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: deceptive way, gave you the sense that the food had

436
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 2: not been touched by human hands with quote cool mechanical

437
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 2: efficiency in the spirit of the FOD assembly line.

438
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 3: I want my food to just cut be birthed straight out.

439
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: Of a machine. Yeah, I mean, and as I'll touch

440
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 2: on a second, like, I think we can still totally

441
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: get that vibe. At one point there was something like

442
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 2: forty Horn and Hart automats in New York City, and

443
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: I think the last one closed in the early nineties,

444
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: but subsequently more automats have opened around the world out

445
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: of a sense of nostalgia weirdness, you know, let's bust

446
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: out some old concepts and see what sticks. During the

447
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 2: COVID pandemic, of course, there was some exploration of similar concepts.

448
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 2: How do we social distance while serving food? And i'm I'm.

449
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 2: This also reminded me a lot of the popularity of

450
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 2: conveyor belt or evolving sushi restaurants. Oh yeah, this is

451
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 2: much the same concept. If you haven't been to one

452
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: of these that you can find them just about everywhere

453
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 2: these days, major cities anyway, where you have a kitchen

454
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 2: and instead of there being a wall of little doors

455
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 2: for you to reach in and get your food, you

456
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 2: have a conveyor belt with like sneeze guards, like a

457
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: buffet line that comes out and snakes through the restaurant,

458
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: comes by your table, and if you see something you like,

459
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 2: you grab it off with the little conveyor belt. And

460
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 2: I think these date back to the nineteen fifties in Japan.

461
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,719
Speaker 2: They had a boom in the nineteen seventies and are

462
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: still popular today. But I know I love them. I

463
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 2: don't go to one all the time, but they're pretty cool.

464
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: They're a lot of fun. And I've also seen conveyor

465
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 2: belt or revolving hot pot restaurants, so you can it's

466
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: been applied to other culinary experiences as well.

467
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 3: Now in this scene, there is nothing nearly as appetizing

468
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,719
Speaker 3: as sushi or hot pot behind these little windows. I

469
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 3: was like, what is here? The things we see are

470
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 3: not even full meals. It's like an apple, a bowl

471
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 3: of green jello and carrots.

472
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: The green jello looks good.

473
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 3: So John Murdoch here in the scene, has a brief

474
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 3: chat with the attendant, which is kind of a funny

475
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 3: circular conversation. The guy's like, hey, you left your wallet here,

476
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 3: and he says, when was I here? And he says,

477
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 3: when you left your wallet. This is the guy stalking

478
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 3: the foods behind the glass. So eventually the attendant puts

479
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 3: Murdoch's wallet in one of the windows, but Murdoch doesn't

480
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 3: have any money to open it with. It seems like

481
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 3: a minor cough gasque kind of situation, so he becomes frustrated,

482
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: and somehow, in his anger, this is the first time

483
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 3: we see anything like this, a ray of vibration of

484
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 3: some kind shoots out of his forehead and the glass

485
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 3: door on the window springs open. So what was that, Well,

486
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: it seems he's just discovered that he has some kind

487
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 3: of latent telekinetic power.

488
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: Yes, he has finally used his shinning on this side

489
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: on this door. Yeah.

490
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: So Murdoch retrieves his wallet and he tries to leave.

491
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 3: Now on the way out, he is briefly stopped and

492
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 3: interrogated by a couple of cops. He obviously has no

493
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 3: idea what to say to them. It's clear at this

494
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 3: point that he is a murder suspect and if they

495
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 3: figure out who he is and put it all together,

496
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 3: this would not be good. But he's rescued from the

497
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 3: situation by a sex worker named May who she kind

498
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: of like, you know, banters with the cops and makes

499
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 3: them laugh off the situation and gets him out of

500
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 3: a jam, and afterwards she takes him back to her apartment.

501
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 3: Here they talk briefly while Murdoch goes through his wallet

502
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 3: finding clues about his identity. He learns his first name

503
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 3: is John from his driver's license, and he finds a

504
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: photo of Emma. He says to the photo, he kind

505
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 3: of whispers, whoever you are, I hope you're still breathing.

506
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 3: And meanwhile he has a conversation with May about He's like,

507
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 3: do you ever want to do you ever worry doing

508
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 3: what you do? Is it kind of dangerous? But she

509
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: doesn't seem worried. Murdoc clearly wonders if he's going to

510
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 3: have some kind of impulse to murder May. He doesn't

511
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 3: know if he's a killer or not, but he doesn't

512
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 3: hurt her. He abruptly leaves her apartment, and in the

513
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 3: director's cut here there's a moment where where Murdoch sees

514
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 3: a young girl and a sectioned off part of the apartment.

515
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 3: I think this is implied to be May's daughter, and

516
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 3: if I recall correctly, this was not part of the

517
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: theatrical cut, that.

518
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: Would make sense. I did not really remember the scene

519
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 2: from before for this detail from the scene.

520
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: Rather, I think that kind of increases the ambiguity, because

521
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 3: obviously Murdoch leaves without hurting May and the fact that

522
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 3: he sees the girl and then leaves maybe increases the

523
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: ambiguity of whether or not he's a killer, because then

524
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: we might think, Oh, I wonder if he would have

525
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 3: killed her if this girl had not been there, ye,

526
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: And so it makes it more leaves more mystery, whereas

527
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: in the theatrical cut it just seems clearer that he's

528
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: not feeling any urge to hurt anybody anyway. After this,

529
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 3: John follows up on a lead from earlier when he

530
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 3: sees a billboard advertising shell Beach. Remember this is the

531
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 3: thing he saw on the postcard from his belongings in

532
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: the hotel, the thing he had that sudden flash of

533
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: vivid memory about the kind of speeding up fast forward memory,

534
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: doo doo, doo doo. And so he sees shell Beach

535
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: mentioned on this billboard. It's a billboard with a big

536
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 3: waving mechanical arm. And he goes up the platform to

537
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: get up to the billboard. And I remember having this

538
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: thought long ago when I saw the movie. I'm like,

539
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: what is he thinking to find up there is that.

540
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: He goes up there and it'll like have a door

541
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: that opens to go to shell Beach.

542
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: It just looks like a great place for an action scene. Yeah,

543
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: some railing up there, let's do it.

544
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: I can't deny that. So it is a great place.

545
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: He goes up to the platform under the Marquee and

546
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: suddenly he is cornered by the strangers. They found him.

547
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: So mister Hand played by Richard O'Brien, confronts him about

548
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 3: the murders and says, so it seems you've discovered your

549
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: unpleasant nature, and he asks them who are you, and

550
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 3: mister Han says, we might ask you the same question.

551
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 3: Then mister Hand waves a hand and instructs Murdoch to

552
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 3: sleep now in the same manner that we saw him

553
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: put the hotel clerk to sleep earlier. But clearly, much

554
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 3: to mister Han's surprise, Murdoch does not sleep. There's no reaction.

555
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: Mister Hans seems to have never encountered this before, so

556
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 3: he draws a dagger and he threatens Murdoch with it,

557
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: but Murdoch fights back. He begins to fight back with

558
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 3: the telekinesis that we saw earlier at the automat, he

559
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 3: causes the platform to crumble and several of the attacking

560
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: strangers fall through, though they can fly, we learn, so

561
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: they fall through, but then they hover back up to

562
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 3: the platform, so falling alone doesn't kill them. But when

563
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: the strangers but they are threatened. When the strangers see

564
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 3: him using the Telekinesis, a couple of them appear frightened,

565
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 3: and one of them calls out he can tune. This

566
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 3: is the term in the movie for the Telekinesis. They

567
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 3: call it tuning, And ultimately, in this fight, one of

568
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: the strangers is killed when the machinery of the mechanical

569
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 3: sign sort of goes haywire and the arm falls down

570
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 3: and chops off the back of the stranger's head, leading

571
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 3: to some kind of leakage, some bizarre blue CGI spider

572
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 3: creature leaking out. Murdoch sees what happens here, he obviously

573
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 3: doesn't comprehend, and then he escapes into the darkness. We

574
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 3: mentioned this in the last episode. Don't want to rag

575
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 3: on the details that don't hold up quite as well,

576
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 3: but man, yeah, the CGI alien brains are not one

577
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: of the best looking things here.

578
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they looks better here than in some scenes,

579
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: but still, yeah, this is not aged as well.

580
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: So after this we get our first glimpse of the underworld.

581
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 3: So we go from the city above into the city below.

582
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,959
Speaker 3: This is the world the underground cavern of the Strangers,

583
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: where they are gathered, hundreds of them in congregation and

584
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: these oh, I don't know. It's almost like stadium seating in.

585
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: A way, or yeah, like a surgical theater.

586
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: Yes, that's a good comparison. Yeah, I was almost there. Yeah,

587
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 3: like a surgical theater where they're kind of staggered up

588
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: and they're all looking down in this middle platform where

589
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: people can speak to them. They're sort of having a

590
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 3: debate when we join them, what is to be done

591
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 3: about John Murdoch? They say, this man is dangerous. It

592
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 3: is said he has the power to tune, a power

593
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 3: that only they have. They say, how is it possible

594
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 3: that a man can tune? And then mister Hand enters

595
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 3: the debate to explain. He says, on occasion the imprinting

596
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: does not take, they behave erradically. When they awaken, we

597
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 3: find them wandering like lost children. But this one was different. Yes.

598
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: They also discuss the fact that one of their number

599
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 3: has been killed by John Murdoch. This is the line

600
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 3: where I forget the actor's name now, but he says,

601
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 3: no more.

602
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: Mister Quick, mister quick dead.

603
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 3: Let me see that they're all kind of chattering about this,

604
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: and they're, oh, poor, poor mister Quick. But we also,

605
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 3: in the scene get to meet the lead I almost

606
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 3: said the lead cinebite. The leads stranger, mister Book, who

607
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 3: is like the elder among them. They were discussing before

608
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 3: he comes on scene, trying to gather more information or

609
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 3: solve the situation with Murdoch, before they update mister Book

610
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: about things. But now the big boss is on the

611
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 3: scene and he assigns different strangers parts of the city

612
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 3: to hunt for John Murdoch. He says, we must have

613
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 3: this man. And it seems clear that mister Book is

614
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: not just afraid of John Murdoch. He sees opportunity.

615
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, he he's not just an enemy chosen one

616
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: to be dispatched, but he could be central to their

617
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: entire operation.

618
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: Now Here, I think we should transition to a more

619
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 3: summary discussion of the general plot threads of the middle

620
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: of the movie. There is, of course, we follow Bumstead

621
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 3: as he continues to pursue the case, learning things about

622
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 3: Murdoch and trying to get to John through Emma. At

623
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: one point, John does come back to visit Emma. He

624
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 3: goes to her apartment and she recognizes him, but he

625
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 3: does not recognize her. And there's obvious emotional pain in

626
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 3: Emma's on Emma's part in this scene because she feels

627
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 3: remorse about her affair. She wants to understand what's happening.

628
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: She feels confusion and sadness about what's happening with John,

629
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 3: but he clearly is just having a deficit of emotion

630
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 3: about her. He's supposed to be our husband, but he

631
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: doesn't know who she is and he doesn't understand what's

632
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 3: happening to them.

633
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're all struggling with the consequences of lives that

634
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 2: are not really their own.

635
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 3: Bumstead eventually stumbles in on the scene and he tries

636
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 3: to take Murdoch in for questioning, but Murdock escapes with

637
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 3: Emma's help. Emma kind of grabs Bumpstead's gun while Murdoc

638
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 3: jumps down the stairwell, and we see in the scene

639
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 3: Murdoch again using his power of tuning under duress he's

640
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 3: like trying to run away from Bumpstead, and he materializes

641
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 3: a door into existence on a wall so that he

642
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 3: can escape the building. Now there's a big sequence sometime

643
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 3: after this where Murdoch finally gets more perspective on what's

644
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 3: going on. He witnesses what happens seemingly every night at midnight,

645
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 3: though it's always night, of course, every night, however long

646
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 3: a night is in this place, which is that everyone

647
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 3: goes to sleep.

648
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: Sleep.

649
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 3: Now everyone suddenly goes unconscious as the clock comes to midnight.

650
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 3: And then the strangers emerge from below and they change things.

651
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 3: They change the physical layout of the city, so new

652
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 3: buildings grow out of the ground. Existing buildings change size

653
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 3: and shape, and the strangers do this in an almost

654
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: ceremonial synchronized tuning where they all gather under the city

655
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 3: and they kind of chatter their teeth at these machines,

656
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: and the machines grow like roots coming up but shoots

657
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 3: from a vegetable coming up out of the ground and

658
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 3: turning and twisting into the buildings. And they're like focusing

659
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 3: all of their psychic energy on this main one machine

660
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: that drives the physical changes to the dark city.

661
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 2: It's interesting. Apparently Proyce was partially inspired in this on

662
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: the set of the Crow, watching different set pieces being

663
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,439
Speaker 2: moved around. So it's interesting to think about the whole

664
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: concept of Dark City as seen through the lens of filmmaking,

665
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 2: you know, like rearranging scenes, changing characters and character relationships.

666
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's probably a strong case to be made

667
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: for the unique director slash storey tellers take on exactly

668
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 2: what this what this movie means.

669
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 3: That's very interesting. I did not know that, but yeah,

670
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 3: as you allude to there, it's not only the physical

671
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 3: layout of the city that changes each night. Some people

672
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: in the city have their identities changed, so they get

673
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 3: injections in the forehead that are these syringes prepared by

674
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: doctor Schreeber, which give them new memories. So they change

675
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 3: people's identities, change their lives, change their memories, change their relationships,

676
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 3: and then the people wake up never realizing anything has happened.

677
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 3: They just go on with their lives, assuming the lives

678
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 3: that they have been given.

679
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 2: I really like some of the details here where we

680
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 2: see the strangers working in a kind of assembly line,

681
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 2: like putting together the pot, their their pocket contents, you know,

682
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: like a physical paraphernalia. Yeah, yeah, which is important because

683
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 2: it drives home like just the complete nature of the

684
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 2: project that they're involved in here. But it also kind

685
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: of lets you know the strangers are doing nothing else,

686
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: like this is the only thing they do, like this

687
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: is their existence, and it is already raising questions like

688
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: why are they doing this? What is this all consuming

689
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: project of dark City?

690
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 3: Well said, and also the other thing being again, it

691
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 3: is always night, never day, and people don't seem to

692
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 3: notice this. Nobody ever comments on the fact that daytime

693
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 3: never happens. Nobody except John. John raises this with other characters.

694
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: He at one point when he's arrested by Inspector Bumstead

695
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: and he's being questioned, he says, when was the last

696
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 3: time you remember doing something in the day, and Bumstead

697
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 3: is clearly kind of flummoxed here he doesn't know how

698
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 3: to answer.

699
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, or later on we get the do you

700
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: remember how to drive to Shell Beach? And which in

701
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: a pre GPS, pre ways and Google Maps age. I

702
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: think that carried more weight because if you asked me

703
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 2: nowadays like oh, how do you drive to many different places?

704
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: Than I would just tell you I have no idea.

705
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: I just do what the strangers tell me to do.

706
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 3: This movie in that sense, in the sense of people

707
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: not being aware how strangely perforated and incomplete their memories are,

708
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: and not being aware that they don't know how to say,

709
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 3: do certain things or get to certain places that they

710
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: really should know, and that that not raising red flags

711
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 3: for them. This connects to something we've talked about on

712
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 3: the show before, a concept I think about all the time.

713
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 3: You remember our episodes on the illusion of explanatory depth.

714
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the This is summed up in the

715
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: idea of like, hey, draw a bicycle, and we're like, yeah,

716
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: I can draw a bicycle.

717
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 3: Yes, but you can't draw a bicycle. I mean some

718
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 3: people can, Like if people can't, Yeah, if you work

719
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 3: on bicycles or something, you probably can. But like huge

720
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 3: percentage of people think that they know all the parts

721
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 3: of a bicycle and draw can draw one, and they can't.

722
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 3: Most people probably can't draw an accurate working bicycle. And

723
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: you think you can, and that the interesting thing is

724
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 3: that you think you can even though you don't actually

725
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: have that knowledge. So there is a way that our

726
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 3: brains can generate false sensations of total comprehension. Our lives

727
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 3: are full of things like this, where you have the

728
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 3: sensation that you understand how they work until you are

729
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 3: forced to try to like slow down and list all

730
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 3: the parts of how they work. And only then do

731
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 3: you realize you don't actually understand even though you thought

732
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 3: you did. It's like you were picturing the full process

733
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 3: in your mind, but you didn't realize that picture lacked

734
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 3: crucial detail.

735
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean sometimes I think we encountered that putting

736
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: together this show, because we watch these movies, you know,

737
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: sometimes multiple times, or sometimes it's you know, a film

738
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 2: we've seen many times before, but then when you have

739
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: to actually put together notes about it, you're like, oh wait,

740
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: I kind of got that out of order in my mind.

741
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 2: I forgot about this scene or this scene, or or

742
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: how these pieces came together.

743
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so I think this is a great The

744
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 3: scene where Bumpstead can't remember how to get to Shell

745
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 3: Beach is a perfect example of the illusion of explanatory depth.

746
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 3: He believes he's fully confident he knows how to get there.

747
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 3: Of course, I know how to get there, until he's

748
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 3: asked to name the steps, and then he can't. He

749
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 3: keeps trying to well. First you go to wait, no,

750
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 3: that can't be right, And so then it's like, is

751
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 3: there even such a place? You know, it feels like

752
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 3: I've been there, but what do you actually remember when

753
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:22,439
Speaker 3: were you there?

754
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 2: Yeah?

755
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 3: So, through the middle and towards the later part of

756
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 3: the movie we learn more from doctor Schrueber. We get

757
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 3: more full explanation of the situation of the film, and

758
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: it is that we are the humans in the movie,

759
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: apart from doctor Schrueber. I mean he is in a way,

760
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 3: but all of the other humans in the movie are

761
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 3: prisoners of the Strangers. We don't know who the strangers

762
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 3: are or how they came to have this power over us,

763
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 3: but they are. We are prisoners of the Strangers, and

764
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: they are running experiments on us. The Strangers want to

765
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 3: understand human beings, to find out what makes us unique,

766
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 3: and to understand how our minds work. And the explanation

767
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 3: that Schrieber gives for this is that the Strangers have

768
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 3: a collective memory and consciousness, and also that there is

769
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 3: something wrong with them. They know that they are not

770
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 3: long for this world. They're a dying race of creatures.

771
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 3: And without a full explanation of without the dots being

772
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 3: fully connected. Here, there's kind of an illusion of explanatory

773
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 3: depth almost that Shrieber has. They somehow have the idea

774
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 3: that their salvation lies in understanding human individuality, a quality

775
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 3: that they lack but apparently wish to possess. So to

776
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 3: study human individuality, they manipulate variables of human lives and

777
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 3: experiment on humans every night, including constantly erasing memories and

778
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 3: giving us new memories through injection, giving us new identities

779
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 3: to see what we will do. For example, will humans

780
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 3: just play the parts set up for them by the

781
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 3: memories that are implanted, or will they deviate? And this

782
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: is what happened to John Murdoch. John Murdoch was just

783
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 3: another one of these people in the city. He was

784
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 3: some guy who was supposed to be given the memory

785
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 3: and identity of a murderer, and the experiment was to

786
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 3: see would he go through with more murders, how would

787
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 3: he behave if given this backstory and identity. But he

788
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 3: woke up during the implantation process and most of the

789
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 3: memories did not take. And that brings us to the

790
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 3: beginning of the film. And yet I think it's interesting

791
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 3: that even after Murdoch sort of finds out about this

792
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: backstory that his what memories he was supposed to have

793
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 3: are implanted and not real. He still wants to understand

794
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 3: so happy part of his memory and implanted memory, and

795
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 3: that happy, happy memory is the memory of Shell Beach,

796
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 3: the one thing he vaguely remembers going out into the

797
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 3: sunlight on the sand dunes.

798
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

799
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 3: We mentioned this in part one, but I think it's

800
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 3: so interesting how the I mean, you could just say that, well,

801
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 3: maybe this is an oversight in the writing, but it

802
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 3: actually feels, I don't know, more thoughtful than that. The

803
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: disconnect between the story we're given about the Stranger's lacking

804
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 3: individuality and wanting to study humans so in a way

805
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 3: that they might gain it somehow or at least understand

806
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 3: it and have some power over it, and comparing what

807
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 3: we're told about that to the obvious reality we observe

808
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 3: when we see the Stranger's behavior, which is that they

809
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 3: do possess some kind of individuality. I mean, they have

810
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 3: differentiated personalities, they withhold information from one another, they can

811
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 3: act at cross purposes.

812
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is fascinating to think about it, and I

813
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 2: hadn't really thought about it in previous viewing. So much.

814
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 2: But yeah, we have at hard here a conflict between

815
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 2: these high minded collective consciousness aliens and humans with their individuality.

816
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 2: And delightfully the film doesn't really beat us over the

817
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 2: head with all the lore and all the particulars on

818
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 2: what's going on. But I tend to think that this

819
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: problem that the Strangers are facing is maybe not one

820
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 2: of like physical illness, but one of stagnation. There's something

821
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: about them, maybe it's alluded to, like maybe they lost

822
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: their home planet or something. Right, They're facing some enormous cataclysm,

823
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 2: and they think that the way out of it is

824
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 2: to differentiate themselves and in a way almost like engage

825
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 2: in a kind of mutation, realizing that as one they

826
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 2: can do amazing things, but they can't break new ground.

827
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: And maybe they need to compartmentalize themselves in individual forms

828
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: and others in order to do that. And they've tried it,

829
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: like they've put themselves in the bodies of the dead,

830
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: They've given them themselves these you know, we've talked about

831
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: how their names are kind of like the names of

832
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 2: child would make up for a toy, Like they're playing

833
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 2: at individuality, and maybe some of that is working to

834
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 2: a certain extent, but it's still not giving them the

835
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 2: results they're striving for. They realize there's something more to

836
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 2: be gained. They're not achieving true individuality, and it's through

837
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 2: true individuality that they think they'll be able to like

838
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: really pull off the next phase. And their species is

839
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: evolution or development and so forth.

840
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good read. And so they're stuck somewhere

841
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 3: in the middle of this process of not understanding exactly

842
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 3: what they're still missing.

843
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

844
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, but speaking of some of them maybe being a

845
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 3: different stages of achieving individuality, this plays right into another

846
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 3: subplot in the middle of the film, which is that

847
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 3: the Strangers come up with a plan to catch Murdoch.

848
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 3: They say, in order to find him, they must think

849
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: like him. So one of the strangers, Mister Hand played

850
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 3: by Richard O'Brien, volunteers to get the memories that were

851
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: meant for John Murdoch implanted into his brain by doctor Shreeber.

852
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 3: So they like tie him down to this table and

853
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 3: Shreeber injects him in the forehead, says this may sting

854
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 3: a little, and he injects him and then O'Brien wakes

855
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 3: up and he's like, oh, yes, I have John Murdoch

856
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 3: in mind a perfect now. Strangely, they explain that the

857
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 3: purpose of these experiments is to try to understand what

858
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 3: makes us who we are, what makes us individuals. So well,

859
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 3: if you implant false memories in a person, will they

860
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 3: just act in accordance with the story of their lives

861
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 3: established by the memories. John Murdoch does not do that,

862
00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: though he only had the memories partially implanted, not fully implanted.

863
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 3: So I guess we are left to wonder whether he

864
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 3: would have just gone on to be a murderer if

865
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 3: the implantation had fully worked. We don't know, but he

866
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 3: at least does not go with the script they tried

867
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 3: to give him. Mister Hand fully does like they when

868
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 3: they inject him, Mister Hand seems to become newly sadistic

869
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,240
Speaker 3: and interested in cruelty and murder.

870
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: This part of it is kind of like a plot

871
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 2: driven Old Testament biblical challenge. You know, It's like, oh,

872
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: job is a is a good and loyal servant, but

873
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: what have these things happened to him? Will he will?

874
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 2: He still be true? And it's and the idea here

875
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: with the Strangers is like if mister Hand has Murdoch's memories.

876
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 2: He will do the things Murdoch would do, and he

877
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 2: will catch up with him, and then we will have him.

878
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 2: And then there's also, of course an element here of

879
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 2: mister Hand, like all the Strangers, pines after the mystery

880
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 2: of individuality, and this is like more attempt to do it.

881
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,439
Speaker 2: Though it has been mentioned that in the past these

882
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 2: sorts of things have not voted well for the Strangers.

883
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 2: It tends to be lethal.

884
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 3: Yes, do you get the sense that mister Hand I

885
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 3: got this feeling that mister Hand in a way that

886
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 3: his plan to catch Murdoch by getting this injection is pretextual, Yes,

887
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 3: And what he really wants is for his own personal

888
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 3: enjoyment or discovery, the feeling of having these memories injected,

889
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 3: like that's why he wants.

890
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 2: It, and to be like outside of the collective, you know,

891
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 2: not out of hatred for the collective, but but like that,

892
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 2: I mean that is part of their quest is to

893
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 2: is to solve this mystery of individuality, to find out

894
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 2: even what it is and then to be it. And

895
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 2: of course it gives it just gives Richard O'Brien more

896
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: room to play this super super creepy lizard like character.

897
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 2: It's just all fabulous. Now.

898
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 3: Eventually in the film, Murdoch gets arrested by Bumstead, but

899
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 3: Murdock and Hoow gets Bumpstead on his side and they

900
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 3: sort of work together and kidnapped doctor Schreeber. And they're

901
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 3: going to force doctor Schreeber to take them to shell

902
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 3: Shell Beach because they become obsessed with the idea that

903
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,919
Speaker 3: shell Beach is some kind of clue that will help

904
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 3: them figure out what's going on in the situation. If

905
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 3: they can get there, they can discover the solution to

906
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 3: the puzzle.

907
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, And the good doctor seems to know

908
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: the way, but he insists, like, you're not gonna like it.

909
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't want to take you there. He tries

910
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 3: to run away, but they force him. I guess we

911
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 3: didn't say this already, but doctor Schreeber seems to be

912
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 3: the one human exempted from this whole experiment because he

913
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 3: was a doctor of some kind before all these people

914
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 3: were kidnapped by the strangers, and they allowed him to

915
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 3: live and to keep his skills in exchange for you know,

916
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 3: doing the dirty work for them to making these you know,

917
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 3: being a traitor to humankind and creating these false memories

918
00:50:58,680 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 3: for people.

919
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, his own personal memories are erased as part of this,

920
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 2: but he becomes He describes it that they needed an

921
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 2: artist to help pull this off, and he is the

922
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 2: artist they must depended upon. That's right.

923
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 3: So anyway, they take him to quote Shell Beach, which

924
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 3: involves going through these kind of back alleys and across

925
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 3: a canal in a rowboat. There's a lot more pondering

926
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 3: of like which of their memories are real, if anything,

927
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 3: you know, who are they really? And they finally get

928
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 3: to this room where we think for a second that

929
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 3: we've come out onto the beach because we like see

930
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 3: through a door and we see this sky blue color,

931
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 3: but then realize it's just another poster. It's just another fake,

932
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 3: like a poster advertising Shell Beach. But then Bumstead and

933
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 3: Murdoch begin beating at the wall underneath the poster. It's

934
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 3: a brick wall. They start hitting it with pipes. They

935
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 3: bust through, and we get a crazy revelation. They look

936
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 3: outside and it is the void of outer space beyond

937
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:56,959
Speaker 3: the brick wall.

938
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 2: Yes, we learned that the city Dark City is some

939
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: sort of orbital not even not necessarily orbital. I'm a little.

940
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: I don't know if we really get a clear indication

941
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 2: if this is orbiting some sort of celestial body. Later

942
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 2: on we will get a peek at some sort of

943
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 2: a sun. But is it bound to that sun or

944
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 2: is the Sun bound to this like large piece of technology.

945
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: We're not I don't think completely sure, but yeah, not

946
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 2: on Earth. We are in space somewhere, and Earth may

947
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 2: just be a distant concept at this point.

948
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 3: The city is a space station, and the city part

949
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 3: of it is always facing away from the star. The

950
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 3: star or the sun is always beneath it, which is

951
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 3: why it's always night.

952
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so it either has a star shackled to it,

953
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 2: or it shackled to a star, I assume for energy

954
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 2: harvesting purposes.

955
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 3: I think for Bumstead, this is almost a kind of

956
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 3: lovecrafty end discovery. This really just shakes him to his core.

957
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: But after this revelation we get a conferenceation. The strangers

958
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 3: arrive on scene with Emma held captive. They've got Emma

959
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 3: with her and so they're trying to get John Murdoch

960
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 3: to surrender that There's also a fight that breaks out

961
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 3: that leads to the death of Inspector Bumstead, where he's

962
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 3: fighting one of the strangers and they get knocked out

963
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 3: into space beyond, and so Bombstead does in the end,

964
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 3: as he floats into space, he gets to see the

965
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 3: whole city and understand things, but then dies, of course,

966
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 3: out in the void.

967
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me of the scene where Clinton and

968
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 2: Bob Dole are ejected from the space ship in the

969
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 2: House of Heart.

970
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, what is this some kind of tube? Yeah, but

971
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 3: so that. Yeah, the strangers arrive with Emma, and I

972
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 3: always liked this detail in the scene. They're bargaining with Murdoch.

973
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 3: They want to get him to surrender, and you know,

974
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 3: they're putting a knife to Emma's neck and Murdoch says,

975
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 3: I don't even know her, don't I don't care what

976
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 3: She's nothing to me. I've never met her before. I

977
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 3: don't know her at all, so why should I care?

978
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 3: And mister Hand says, you do care, don't you? And

979
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 3: he does, And so for some even though he knows

980
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:10,280
Speaker 3: he doesn't she's not really his wife, he can't shake

981
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 3: the feeling that she's his wife, and thus he can't

982
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 3: let them hurt her, so he has to surrender.

983
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: I don't know.

984
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 3: I always like how that works out. It's just irrational,

985
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 3: but he can't deny it.

986
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

987
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, So this is all leading up to the final

988
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 3: confrontation of the film. They now have John Murdoch, the

989
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 3: Strangers have John Murdoch, and the Strangers have determined that

990
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 3: there is something special about him. He actually is what

991
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 3: they were looking for through their experiments. It's not fully

992
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 3: clear what exactly that is, but he's some kind of

993
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 3: step up in human evolution or something. He's he's some advancement,

994
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 3: some differentiation point, and they think that they've hit what

995
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 3: they were looking for, and now this is their chance.

996
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 3: They are going to inject their memories into him.

997
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, the collective consciousness of the strangers into this one individual.

998
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 2: And maybe that's part of what their ultimate goal is, right,

999
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 2: the idea that if we can find the right sorts

1000
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 2: of individuals, or create the right sorts of individuals, we

1001
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 2: can put the collective consciousness into each of them and

1002
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 2: then they will become true individuals.

1003
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 3: But there's a switcheroo here. Doctor Schrieber saves the day

1004
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 3: by doing some matrix style injected memory training. So he

1005
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 3: secretly switches out the syringes and instead of injecting John

1006
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 3: Murdoch with all of the with the collective memories of

1007
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 3: the Strangers, he injects him essentially with a life history

1008
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 3: that includes a fully scripted out training module for using

1009
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 3: his telekinetic tuning powers.

1010
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 2: Yes, every memory in his head has Strieber in it,

1011
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 2: instructing him how to be the Chosen One and how

1012
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 2: to battle the strangerssumably, even like, you know, he has

1013
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 2: a false memory of his first kiss, but at Schrieber

1014
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 2: and saying this is how you will use your mind

1015
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: to come back the Strangers. It's great.

1016
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,800
Speaker 3: But no, he's all, like, you know, the helpful adult

1017
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 3: characters from nineteen fifties shows, it's leave it to Beaver.

1018
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 3: He's like, you're doing great, my boy, Yeah.

1019
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 2: I did like those. Those are some nice moments.

1020
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 3: Where key for Sutherland is not doing the doctor Schruber

1021
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 3: voice in the yeah yeah. But this kind of leads

1022
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 3: up to the big showdown where Murdoch wakes up and

1023
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 3: now instead of the Strangers getting what they want, they've

1024
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 3: met the perfect enemy, and a psychic telekinetic battle between

1025
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 3: John Murdoch and all of the Strangers commences. This turns

1026
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 3: into a big flying just like wizard battle basically with

1027
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:52,399
Speaker 3: him flinging things at each other this part. I mean,

1028
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 3: I guess it is a logical conclusion to the story,

1029
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 3: but on revisiting, I was like, I don't know, I

1030
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 3: feel like it could have had a better confrontation battle

1031
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 3: of some kind of the end.

1032
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,919
Speaker 2: I think part of this might be that since Dark

1033
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 2: City came out, we've seen this sort of final confrontation

1034
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 2: between superpowered individuals just so many times. You know, it

1035
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 2: was kind of done to death with Marvel movies, to

1036
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 2: the point where a lot of Marvel movies don't really

1037
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 2: even do it anymore. Or I don't know, it seems

1038
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:22,439
Speaker 2: like maybe the last one or two that I found

1039
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 2: at least found a way to subvert it a little bit,

1040
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 2: Like I think, I think we just kind of did

1041
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 2: it to death, and this maybe felt a little more

1042
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 2: fresh at the time. But like you said, it is

1043
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 2: the natural progression of the plot, and so I don't

1044
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 2: have a I don't really have a suggestion for what

1045
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 2: I would rather see. I mean, I don't know. It's

1046
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: still quite nice in so many ways.

1047
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and certainly what comes after it is. But

1048
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 3: so the fight itself sort of turns into a psychic

1049
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 3: duel between Murdoch and mister Book where they're blasting power

1050
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 3: and I think a dagger back and forth.

1051
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 2: But yeah, we get the flying dagger reversal, which reminds

1052
00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 2: me a little bit of Dune and also a little

1053
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 2: bit of Big Trouble Little China. But I don't know.

1054
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 2: It's like, we just did a three part episode on daggers.

1055
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 2: So everybody loves a good dagger. Everyone loves a good

1056
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 2: flying dagger scene, so I'm not going to criticize that

1057
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 2: at all.

1058
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 3: Mister Book gets flung into a giant water tower or

1059
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 3: water storage tank, and that really doesn't go great for

1060
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 3: him because, as we learned in the last time we

1061
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 3: talked about, the strangers don't like water.

1062
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 2: That's right, and so yeah we get the less spectacular

1063
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 2: CGI death of the brain Squid.

1064
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 3: Now what happens after this is interesting. The movie doesn't

1065
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 3: just stop when Murdoch has won the fight. Murdoch goes

1066
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 3: on into a mission of transformation where he let's see

1067
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 3: what are all the things he does. He essentially brings

1068
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 3: daylight to the city, but he also creates shell Beach.

1069
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 2: That's right. It's kind of like the ending of Lynch's

1070
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: Doom where the hero achieves great psych powers and then

1071
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 2: creates an ocean.

1072
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. So he like unleashes the waters below.

1073
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 3: It's like the deluge is brought forth and it creates

1074
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 3: an ocean around the dark city and you know, some

1075
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 3: sunlight and a beach. And so he's been making and

1076
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 3: at this making in the cosmic sense, you know, he's

1077
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 3: a creator deity now. But there is a moment where

1078
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 3: after all of this happens, kind of in the coda

1079
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 3: of the movie, Murdoch has an encounter with mister Hand,

1080
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 3: who is still alive and he's sort of being repelled

1081
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 3: by the light hiding in the shadows. He's weakened, and

1082
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 3: mister Hand says, says to him, I wanted to know

1083
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 3: what it was like, how you feel, And Murdoch says,

1084
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 3: you know how I was supposed to feel. That person

1085
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 3: isn't me, never was. You wanted to know what it

1086
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 3: was about us that made us human? Well, you're not

1087
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 3: going to find it in here, And he points at

1088
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 3: his head. He says, you were looking in the wrong place.

1089
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 2: The idea being, oh, you should have looked in our

1090
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 2: in our hearts and our souls.

1091
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 3: Maybe, though he doesn't he doesn't have anywhere to point

1092
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 3: to for that, does he Yeah, which I think is good.

1093
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 2: If he'd pointed to the heart, it might have been

1094
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 2: a fit too much. That would be pretty cheesy, yeaheah.

1095
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 2: I mean this is a detail that you're looking in

1096
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 2: the wrong place. Line. I think. I think I love

1097
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: this more when I was younger, and maybe found it

1098
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 2: a little bit too easy a way out this time around.

1099
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 2: I don't know. It probably sounds like I used to

1100
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 2: be more of a dualist and now I'm more of

1101
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 2: a materialist, uh, And therefore I don't Maybe I don't

1102
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 2: care for a seemingly dualist message here, but I think

1103
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 2: I'm still a dualist or a materialist, depending on mood

1104
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 2: and circumstance. So I don't know. I suppose it still

1105
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 2: absolutely works the solution here, because I guess the idea

1106
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 2: is the strangers have failed in trying to understand human

1107
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 2: in individuality because they're trying to find a materialist solution,

1108
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: so one that's based entirely in the brain and in memory,

1109
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 2: while the reality of the human soul lies maybe in

1110
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 2: some sort of non material reality that they can't even

1111
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 2: conceive of and maybe don't possess themselves. But then again,

1112
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 2: like you said, we're dealing with enough ambiguity here that

1113
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 2: it's not like they're spelling all this out. This is

1114
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 2: just my read on it, But I think it does

1115
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 2: at least tippets hat in the direction of an idea

1116
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 2: that humans have a soul and that's maybe something that

1117
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 2: the strangers can't understand, and the soul is the true

1118
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 2: identity that they can manipulate but cannot replace, and it

1119
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 2: certainly cannot create in themselves.

1120
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder, I don't know. I mean, you could

1121
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 3: read that line in that scene as pointing to an

1122
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 3: immaterial soul. I don't know if that's how I've always

1123
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 3: taken it. I don't really think so. But then again,

1124
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 3: I don't know exactly what it is saying. Maybe it's

1125
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 3: saying that not that you are missing an immaterial soul

1126
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 3: as the center of human identity and personality, but that

1127
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 3: you're in a way you're asking the question wrong of

1128
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 3: you know, what makes human, what makes us human, or

1129
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 3: what makes us individual? You are asking that question in

1130
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 3: an overly mechanistic way that's trying to trying to understand

1131
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 3: it in terms of like a single cause such as

1132
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 3: a chain of memories when actually the answer to the

1133
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 3: question might be something that's so complex. It's an interaction

1134
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 3: of so many different variables you couldn't really, you know,

1135
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 3: isolate the thing that makes John Murdoch John Murdock. It's

1136
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 3: not like these five memories in a row, that's what

1137
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 3: does it.

1138
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess you could. You could do a read

1139
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 2: on it where what if consciousness is based on some

1140
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 2: sort of like quantum scenario and it's beyond anyone's ability,

1141
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 2: even the stranger's ability to really glimpse it.

1142
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 3: So there's one thing I wanted to mention about the

1143
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 3: end of this movie because there's a great scene where

1144
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 3: John Murdoch he goes out to the end of a

1145
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 3: Peer and at the end of the film, Jennifer Connolly

1146
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 3: has already been through another retuning, so she's had her

1147
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 3: memories changed, she's been given a new identity. She's someone

1148
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 3: named Anna now and she does not remember John Murdock.

1149
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 3: So when she sees rufus Sewell at the movie at

1150
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 3: the end of the movie, it's not like, oh, here's

1151
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 3: my husband. He's just a stranger. But he goes out

1152
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 3: to meet her at the end of a Peer and

1153
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 3: they have a nice little interaction. It's almost kind of

1154
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 3: like they get to meet for the first time, but

1155
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 3: I guess it's only the first time for her anyway.

1156
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 3: While she's standing at the end of the pier here

1157
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 3: there is a beautiful shot of her standing there against

1158
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 3: the railing, and I wanted to flag that Jennifer Connolly

1159
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 3: apparently did three movies over five years that all ended

1160
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 3: with had very prominent, nearly identical shots of the character

1161
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 3: standing at the end of a peer looking out over

1162
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 3: the ocean. This shot occurs in Dark City in ninety eight,

1163
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 3: in Requiem for a Dream in two thousand and in

1164
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 3: House of Sand and Fog in two thousand and three.

1165
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 3: I knew about the first two when I was a teenager.

1166
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 3: I remember my friends and I talking about this that like, weird,

1167
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 3: these two movies have almost the exact same shot in

1168
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 3: them of Jennifer Connolly on the pier. But when I

1169
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 3: went to Google this to confirm it before doing the episode,

1170
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 3: I found a Reddit post pointing out the third movie,

1171
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 3: which I've never seen, House of Sand and Fog. But yeah,

1172
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 3: they do indeed include a screenshot and it's the same thing.

1173
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's just it seemingly just coincidence, right, I mean,

1174
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 2: it's yeah, or you know, you just Jennifer Connelly is

1175
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 2: the sort of performer that you just want to put

1176
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 2: it in the end of a peer I guess.

1177
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 3: So I looked this up to see if I could

1178
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 3: find out more like was this intentional in any way?

1179
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 3: And I found an addition of Roger Ebert's old movie

1180
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 3: answer Man column that he used to do. This was

1181
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 3: from December two thousand, where he actually included a reader

1182
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 3: question about these two nearly identical shots in Dark City

1183
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 3: and Requiem for a Dream, and in response, the column

1184
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 3: included an answer from Darren Aronofsky, the director of Requiem

1185
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 3: for a Dream. Explaining it, he says, quote, the peer

1186
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 3: scene comes from a personal moment in my own life.

1187
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 3: When I was a teenager, I once met a girl

1188
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 3: I had a crush on out at that Coney Island pier.

1189
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 3: When I was writing the script before I cast Jennifer Connolly,

1190
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 3: I decided to draw on this personal moment. Unfortunately, I

1191
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 3: had missed Dark City and had no idea there was

1192
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 3: a similar image in Alex Proyes's film. When I got

1193
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 3: to the pier, Jennifer told me how strange it was

1194
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 3: that both films used this image. At that point, it

1195
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,800
Speaker 3: was too late to change things, so I went for it.

1196
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 3: Since the shoot, I've watched Dark City and was amazed

1197
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 3: that not only did we use a similar shot, but

1198
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 3: used the same actor. I guess I fed off of

1199
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 3: some ether that Alex created and presented to the universe.

1200
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 3: So I owe him thanks, as I owe so many

1201
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 3: filmmakers who continue to influence me, consciously and unconsciously. So

1202
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 3: he claims it was just a coincidence and maybe it

1203
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 3: was yeah.

1204
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 2: Or maybe the strangers were involved. You can change the

1205
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 2: memories of a filmmaker, but they still have an innate

1206
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 2: inner drive to frame a shot with Jennifer Connelly standing

1207
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 2: at the end of a peer, and I imagine it

1208
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 2: would still be happening if presumably I'm assuming she has

1209
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 2: something in our contract now which she's like, no more

1210
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 2: peer sings. I guess so. But you know, outside of

1211
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 2: of whatever, you know, actual ether based connections there are

1212
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,840
Speaker 2: going on here. I mean, peers are just visually arresting

1213
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 2: subject matter. You know, obviously a place of demarcation, but

1214
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 2: in the absence of vessels, all kind of bridge to nowhere,

1215
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 2: an artificial peninsula jutting out into the void, and you know,

1216
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 2: I don't think it contains such a scene. But there's

1217
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 2: even a classic noir film title The Woman on Peer thirteen.

1218
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 2: So I don't know that's neither here nor there, but

1219
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 2: it's like it feels fitting in a contemplative picture that

1220
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 2: you would have characters standing on a pier looking out

1221
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 2: into the distance. You know.

1222
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 3: There's one last thing I wanted to talk about about

1223
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 3: the end of the film, which is that it's interesting

1224
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 3: that when John Murdock triumphs at the end, what he

1225
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 3: does with all his power is not reveal the truth

1226
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 3: to the people of the Dark City. I mean, maybe

1227
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 3: he will in later events, but we don't see that.

1228
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 3: He does not reveal the truth, but he makes the

1229
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 3: illusions real. So, like he says, we've always been told

1230
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 3: there's such a place as Shell Beach. I'm gonna make it.

1231
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 3: Here's Shell Beach.

1232
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. I would absolutely not swim in these waters though,

1233
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 2: because it's just space underneath there. Yeah, like if you

1234
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,400
Speaker 2: if your form is too perfect on your dive, you're

1235
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 2: going to go straight through into outer right. Yeah.

1236
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, But I thought that was such an interesting conclusion.

1237
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:08,640
Speaker 3: Normally you would expect the happy ending of a movie

1238
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 3: where people are trapped in in illusory prison like this,

1239
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 3: the happy ending is revelation of the truth and liberation.

1240
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 3: But instead of that we get we get the manifestation

1241
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 3: of the image on the cave wall as reality.

1242
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting to think about because, Yeah, on one level,

1243
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 2: it's like I've exposed the lie, and now I shall

1244
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 2: use the lye for our benefit. You know, I will

1245
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 2: sustain the I will make the illusion more real and

1246
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:42,720
Speaker 2: more pleasant. But yeah, I guess, like we get into

1247
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 2: the details of the plot, like we have no there's

1248
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 2: no indication that they can ever return home. We don't know.

1249
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 2: I guess that's how factors into this. We don't know

1250
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 2: if they came from Earth. We have no idea where

1251
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 2: they are in compared to our own time and certainly

1252
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 2: our own space. So it's possible that this is the

1253
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,599
Speaker 2: absolute best case in a is that they can they

1254
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,719
Speaker 2: can make a home out of their prison, and maybe

1255
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 2: a pleasant one. What is it saying about our own

1256
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:11,080
Speaker 2: thoughts and memories? You know, I don't know, Like maybe

1257
01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 2: it's I mean, you could you could apply it to

1258
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:18,919
Speaker 2: some ideas of like illusion, false memories and self deception

1259
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,120
Speaker 2: that like, you know, sometimes it is good. It may

1260
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 2: not be reality, but it's what we need to keep

1261
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 2: going and to survive.

1262
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, and well, I think the movie also highlights that

1263
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,520
Speaker 3: there can be different levels of severity of imprisonment.

1264
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 2: You know.

1265
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 3: So on one hand, you can have the physical confinement

1266
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,759
Speaker 3: to this space station in the form of a city

1267
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 3: in the middle of floating in the void. And then

1268
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 3: you can have the extra level of imprisonment of your

1269
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 3: life not being your own and your identity being you know,

1270
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,200
Speaker 3: erased and given to you by someone in the middle

1271
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,760
Speaker 3: of the night. I think maybe the movie is making

1272
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 3: the case that second form of imprisonment is much worse

1273
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,600
Speaker 3: than the first, and that given the choice between them,

1274
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 3: you would have happily just take being able to live

1275
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 3: your own life imprisoned in the city and space, as

1276
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 3: opposed to you know, not really having your own identity.

1277
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, let's go kind of get into the matrix thing, right,

1278
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:14,160
Speaker 2: which reality do you want to live in? The harsh

1279
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 2: one where you eat mush or the illusion? Yeah? So

1280
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 2: both both films, of course, chewing on some of the

1281
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:24,800
Speaker 2: same subject matter, but not all. Yeah. I have one

1282
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 2: more question here. I want to throw out. So again

1283
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:29,719
Speaker 2: I keep coming back to this idea of the collective

1284
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:32,760
Speaker 2: consciousness and memories of the strangers, and they're playing at

1285
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:37,760
Speaker 2: individuality and experimenting with individuality and trying to claim it

1286
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 2: and its benefits for themselves. We of course have individuality,

1287
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:48,719
Speaker 2: but we in a way play at the hive mind

1288
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 2: as well. We have various social structures and systems, and

1289
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 2: at a very base level we cooperate. So if cooperating

1290
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 2: is what individuals do to achieve some of the ends

1291
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 2: and sort of play at communal existence before you know,

1292
01:11:08,280 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 2: inevitably sort of whiplashing back into individuality and the pitfalls

1293
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:16,120
Speaker 2: involved there, what is the term for what the strangers

1294
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:18,679
Speaker 2: are doing? What is the kind of the op not

1295
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 2: not really the opposite of cooperation, but what is cooperation

1296
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:26,799
Speaker 2: like in reverse from a collective mindset in memory into

1297
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:29,840
Speaker 2: something like individuality.

1298
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:34,679
Speaker 3: Differentiation something like that. Yeah. Yeah, It's interesting that as

1299
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 3: as individual organisms or animals, we certainly do engage in

1300
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 3: all kinds of deliberate and non deliberate collective behaviors. And

1301
01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 3: I think that a lot of the most fulfilling and

1302
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 3: even rapturous experiences humans go through are when they can

1303
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 3: sort of most shed their individuality and kind of like

1304
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 3: you know, singing together in a big group, these kind

1305
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,719
Speaker 3: of moments where you can just like become you feel

1306
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 3: this comma muda kind of thing with lots of other people.

1307
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 3: That those are like some of the most magical feelings

1308
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 3: people ever ever experience. I wonder if there's a similar

1309
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 3: thing for you know, mister Hand. They're like finally getting

1310
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:19,679
Speaker 3: to be his very own murderer self.

1311
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, anyway, yeah, I love it. Dark City. Great film,

1312
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 2: still thought provoking, still engaging today. So it was a

1313
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 2: real pleasure to revisit it here. All right, we're gonna

1314
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 2: ahead and close it out here. We're gonna go and

1315
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:40,879
Speaker 2: shut it down, but we'll let it down forever. Indeed,

1316
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:43,200
Speaker 2: So we'd of course love to hear from everyone out

1317
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 2: there if you have strong memories or strong opinions or

1318
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 2: i'm just you know, casual observations about Dark City. We

1319
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:54,600
Speaker 2: would love to hear from you, right in. This is

1320
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 2: the kind of thing we'd love to get into on

1321
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 2: a future episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind listener mail.

1322
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 2: In the meantime, we'll also remind you that Stuff to

1323
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and Culture podcast

1324
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:07,200
Speaker 2: feed with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but on

1325
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,639
Speaker 2: Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just talk

1326
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 2: about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. If you

1327
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 2: are on letterbox dot com, you can find us there.

1328
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 2: We are a weird House that is our username, and

1329
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:18,880
Speaker 2: you can find a nice list of all the movies

1330
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 2: we've covered over the years, and sometimes a peek ahead

1331
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 2: what comes next. So if you're wondering, I wonder if

1332
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:26,320
Speaker 2: they've covered such and such film before, well, that's a

1333
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:27,719
Speaker 2: place where you can answer that question.

1334
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Jjposway.

1335
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1336
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1337
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:38,400
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1338
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:40,960
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1339
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

1340
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:51,720
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1341
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:54,639
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1342
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.