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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greasee.

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Speaker 2: Why is the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation tearing

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Speaker 2: apart the crime scene of the Idaho for sleigh.

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Speaker 3: Why is that happening? Why is the.

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Speaker 2: FBI out in Idaho tearing up carpet, looking at the walls,

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Speaker 2: looking at the windows, taking pieces of board.

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Speaker 3: What are they doing this?

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Speaker 2: As Brian Coberger, the doctoral student charged in the sleighing

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Speaker 2: of four beautiful University of Idaho students in their sleep

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Speaker 2: or half sleep in the middle of the night the wee.

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Speaker 3: Early morning around four a m.

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Speaker 2: While he sits in his cell get a special vegan diet,

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Speaker 2: watching whatever he wants. He has control of his remote

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Speaker 2: on TV and gathering female admirers on the Internet. What's happening?

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Speaker 2: When is Brian Coberger going to trial? And is the

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Speaker 2: death penalty still on the table? I mean to see, Grace.

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Speaker 3: This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

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Speaker 2: and on Serious XM one eleven.

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Speaker 3: First of all, let's kick it off.

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Speaker 2: We've got an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 2: what we're learning right now. But listen first to victim

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Speaker 2: Xanna Kernodle's mother.

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Speaker 4: There are things like in the investigation that I would

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Speaker 4: live like to see go differently. I would have liked

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Speaker 4: to see. I would like to see more coming from

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Speaker 4: the kids that attended school there, the people that were

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Speaker 4: at the Sprat party, the fraternity members, what were they

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Speaker 4: all doing, What was happening at the party before where

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Speaker 4: they came home. I really just want and anybody who

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Speaker 4: was at the drub truck with Kaylee and Maddie or

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Speaker 4: at the bar with Kaylee and Mattie, I would like

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Speaker 4: to see. I would like to see answers coming from

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Speaker 4: from those people. It just it kind of bewilders me

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Speaker 4: that we haven't heard anything from any of them, because

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Speaker 4: they were the last people to see these kids alive.

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Speaker 2: And I've got such an incredible panel joining us right now,

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Speaker 2: but I want to go first to Jane Fisher, former

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Speaker 2: chief Deputy prosecutor.

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Speaker 3: And boys the Idaho.

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Speaker 1: Idaho is this.

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Speaker 2: Jurisdiction where the sleighs, the four murders went down. She

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Speaker 2: specialized in murder and you can find her today at

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Speaker 2: Building Hope Today dot Org.

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Speaker 3: Jane, you're hearing Xana.

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Speaker 2: Cernoll's mother who has lived through complete hell. Jane, I

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Speaker 2: thought I knew it all about grief and suffering when

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Speaker 2: my fiance was murdered shortly before our wedding, But now

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Speaker 2: that I have the twins, John, David and Lucy, I

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Speaker 2: didn't know anything because the worst possible thing that could

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Speaker 2: happen is to lose your child. I'm sure about that, Jane.

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Speaker 2: You hear the mom. You hear Xana Cronole's mom talking

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Speaker 2: about things that she would like to have seen done

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Speaker 2: differently in this investigation. This is Carrie Northington, and she's

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Speaker 2: focusing on the parties leading up to the murders that night,

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Speaker 2: the fraternity sorority parties.

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Speaker 3: We know that.

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Speaker 2: Several of the four were at a food truck really

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Speaker 2: really late at night, like after one am. They stopped

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Speaker 2: to get food at a food truck before they went home.

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Speaker 2: Have you in your practice, Jane, talked to victims parents

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Speaker 2: and you listen to what they're saying and it may

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Speaker 2: or may not be relevant to the case. Like the

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Speaker 2: DNA shows that Brian Coburger handled the murder weapon and

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Speaker 2: the sheath because the she that's his DNA on it,

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Speaker 2: and it's practically under one of the dead victims. So

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Speaker 2: maybe what Xenna's mother is saying is irrelevant. Maybe it

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter who was at the party five hours before,

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Speaker 2: who was at the food truck three hours before. On

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Speaker 2: the other hand, Jean, maybe it does matter because Xenna's

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Speaker 2: mother thinks two people are involved.

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Speaker 3: I don't she does, but I find the significance.

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Speaker 2: Gene, What if Coburger was lurking around either of those

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Speaker 2: two places, wouldn't that solidify the case for the state?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I mean I really feel for her, for the parents,

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Speaker 6: for the survivors in this and the common it's so

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Speaker 6: common and to have parents victims asking some of these

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Speaker 6: other questions and wanting to know exactly what she's asking,

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Speaker 6: Who was at the party, who was at the food truck,

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Speaker 6: those sorts of things, because because what's happened is unimaginable

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Speaker 6: and you just want all the answers and everything that

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Speaker 6: you possibly can to understand how this could have happened.

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Speaker 7: Now, as you said, some of that stuff is irrelevant,

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Speaker 7: It isn't as though it's certainly not here and not nationwide.

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Speaker 7: Have just seen there hasn't been substantial amount of reporting

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Speaker 7: on this of law enforcement in the Moscow community. You know,

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Speaker 7: the photos of the girls at the food truck trying

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Speaker 7: to find everybody and anybody who talked to them, and

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Speaker 7: they did do some follow up, as you recall. You know,

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Speaker 7: they did have a well law. Yeah, and they thought

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Speaker 7: that they had you know, the I think it was

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Speaker 7: the uber driver, Yep, that that was a suspect, And

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Speaker 7: I mean they did do a lot of that.

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Speaker 2: You're right, And how do you deal with victims' families?

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Speaker 2: I mean, for you and I, we think that is

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Speaker 2: irrelevant because we believe we know who the killer is

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Speaker 2: and it's not the guy at the food truck, and

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Speaker 2: it's not some drunk frat boy at the whatever house,

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Speaker 2: the Sigma Kai house or whatever house it was. But

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Speaker 2: she's right, we have to exhaust as prosecutors every single avenue.

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Speaker 2: What if someone at that part of your food truck

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Speaker 2: saw Coburger? What if they were connected to Coburger somehow?

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Speaker 2: So I understand where the mother is coming from. I

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Speaker 2: completely understand as a layperson, especially that it's not in

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Speaker 2: the investigation every single day.

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Speaker 3: She thinks, hey is irrelevance, and maybe there is as

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Speaker 3: of right now, there's not.

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Speaker 2: But you hear Xenna's mother speaking at and later I'm

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Speaker 2: going to let you in on her statements regard she

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Speaker 2: thinks that there is another person involved. A lot's happening

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Speaker 2: in the case against Brian Coberger right now.

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Speaker 3: First of all, there has been a.

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Speaker 2: Very powerful motion to dismiss the indictment, in other words,

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Speaker 2: throw out the charges. And the judge, whose name coincidentally

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Speaker 2: is Judge, is John Judge, so he's judge Judge.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 2: I want you to hear what the judge says about

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Speaker 2: the defense's slew of arguments to.

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Speaker 3: Have these charges thrown out. Listen, the Idahole.

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Speaker 8: Criminal Rules, specifically Rules six point five A expressly states

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Speaker 8: that probable cause is the standard not beyond a reasonable

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Speaker 8: doubt for a grand jury's indictment.

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Speaker 9: And I think I have three or four research because

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Speaker 9: this argument has been circulating in the state. I think

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Speaker 9: I've had three or four district judge decisions denying the

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Speaker 9: motion any here. So I am going to deny the argument.

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Speaker 2: Who Okay, Look, we may think that there was no

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Speaker 2: grounds for the charges to be thrown out, but you

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Speaker 2: get one crackpot judge up on.

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Speaker 3: The bench, you don't know what they're going to do.

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Speaker 2: I have had judges well, one of the times I

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Speaker 2: was held in contempt the judge was completely ruling against

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Speaker 2: all the black and white letter of the law. And

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Speaker 2: I said, and his name was Judge Presley.

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Speaker 3: May he rest in peace.

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Speaker 2: So Judge Presley, just turn around and right behind you

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Speaker 2: is a bookshelf, and all that bookshelf is the OCGA,

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Speaker 2: the Official Code of Georgia annotated the code. But the

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Speaker 2: annotation is all the case law supporting the law and

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Speaker 2: the interpretation law. If you would just swivel your chair

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Speaker 2: around and grab OCGA thirty blaw desk blaw and local page.

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Speaker 3: Three fifty six, you will see that.

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Speaker 2: You're really it's completely contradictory to the law. I was

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Speaker 2: held in contempt, but I was right. It didn't feel

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Speaker 2: very good saying I'm right when I was getting fingerprinted.

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Speaker 2: But you never know what a judge is going to do.

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Speaker 2: This judge did the right thing. What were the claims?

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Speaker 2: The defense was mounting and they had a lot of claims.

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Speaker 10: Listen hours of arguments between Coburger's lawyers, the prosecution, and

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Speaker 10: the judge have occurred in private, behind closed doors without cameras,

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Speaker 10: but in court papers, Brian Coberger's defense team claims the

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Speaker 10: grand jury was biased there was insufficient evidence to charge

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Speaker 10: Coburger in the first place, and that prosecutors withheld evidence

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Speaker 10: that would exonerate Coburger. Well, the defense has made these

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Speaker 10: serious allegations, they have yet to show any of the

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Speaker 10: evidence to back up their claims.

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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: Joining me right now, an expert who has been at

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Speaker 2: the scene of the crime along with me. In fact,

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Speaker 2: he showed me, he directed me to a lot of

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Speaker 2: points of interest. And I don't mean like I'm looking

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Speaker 2: at Niagara Falls that kind of point of interest. I mean,

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Speaker 2: look at this. This proves X. Look at that, that

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Speaker 2: proves why drive this route? Not that route? Look over here,

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Speaker 2: not over there. That's what I'm talking about. Chris mcdonnah

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Speaker 2: is with me, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former

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Speaker 2: homicide detective, at least three hundred sides under his belt,

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Speaker 2: host of a YouTube channel where I found him the

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Speaker 2: interview room. Chris McDonough how upsetting you know? It never

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Speaker 2: failed to upset me when the defense would claim, oh,

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Speaker 2: she's withholding evidence. But I had handed over my whole

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Speaker 2: file except for my own work product, my notes, my questions,

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Speaker 2: my own theories. But yet that argument would still be made.

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Speaker 2: And it's a black eye for you, the homicide investigator

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Speaker 2: and the prosecutor, because it looks like you're playing dirty

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Speaker 2: pool that you're going to win through nefarious means, and

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Speaker 2: that's no win at all because it'll be reversed on appeal.

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Speaker 2: We really take the punches in the gut.

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Speaker 5: Don't we, Nancy. And one of the worst things that

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Speaker 5: could ever happen, to your point, is a rogue judge

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Speaker 5: taking all of these all of these points of the

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Speaker 5: law into consideration and even giving them of that you'd wait,

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's every family's nightmare, it's every prosecutor's nightmare,

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Speaker 5: the investigator, public safety's nightmare that the defense is able

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Speaker 5: to say, hey, they still are not giving us evidence

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Speaker 5: when in fact, you know, they've turned over all the

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Speaker 5: evidence under Brady to.

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Speaker 11: The defense and they know what they have.

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Speaker 5: It's right in front of them. And you know, I

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Speaker 5: think this is the big push that's taking place right now,

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Speaker 5: and we're just going to, you know, like always, just

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Speaker 5: see how this kind of plays out here.

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Speaker 2: Well, bottom line, you don't sign up to be a

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Speaker 2: homicide investigator or a prosecutor to win miscongeniality. Chris McDonough,

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Speaker 2: nobody's going to go home, Crown mis sweet with Tita.

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Speaker 2: That's not happening. We are going to take the hits

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Speaker 2: and keep ongoing. I mean, listen, if I paid attention

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Speaker 2: to everything that said about me or our program on

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Speaker 2: to enter and Facebook and instant, wherever I'd be hiding

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Speaker 2: under the bed right now. Just if you don't have

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Speaker 2: a thick skin, you better develop one and quickly.

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Speaker 3: Guys.

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Speaker 2: Not only in the last days has the judge denied

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Speaker 2: the defense motion to throw out the charges. The FBI

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Speaker 2: has been back at the murder scene. Some call it

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Speaker 2: the murder house, it's the crime scene. The FBI has

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Speaker 2: been back sniffing around and tearing apart sections of the home,

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Speaker 2: including yanking up carpet and more.

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Speaker 3: Take a listen to our friends at crime Online.

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Speaker 10: FBI agents have entered the King Rode home in Moscow, Idaho,

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Speaker 10: hoping to gain more information as the prosecution prepares for trial.

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Speaker 10: According to NBC News, the University of Idaho says investigators

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Speaker 10: ask to go back into the home and gather documentation

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Speaker 10: as they construct visual and audio exhibits, as well as

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Speaker 10: a physical model of the home. Experts say this will

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Speaker 10: help as the prosecution explains where evidence was found and

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Speaker 10: why the placement has said evidence is important. Families of

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Speaker 10: the victims have worked hard to prevent the King Road

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Speaker 10: structure from being torn down as was originally planned. The

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Speaker 10: family of Kaali Gonzavez and the father of Xanikernodle said

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Speaker 10: they were grateful the university is waiting until after the

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Speaker 10: trial to demolish the home because it remains the biggest

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Speaker 10: piece of evidence.

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Speaker 2: I want to circle back to doctor Angela arnold A

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Speaker 2: renounced psychiatrists joining us about that why the victims' families may.

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Speaker 3: Not want this home torn down.

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Speaker 2: But first I want to talk about something that I understand,

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Speaker 2: and that is the probit of value of this home.

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Speaker 3: Do we still need the home? Why do we need

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Speaker 3: the home?

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Speaker 12: What?

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Speaker 2: If anything can it proves been combed over with a

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Speaker 2: fine tooth comb, So why do I care that it's

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Speaker 2: not torn down? Well, for one reason, correct me if

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Speaker 2: I'm wrong, Joining me. Dave Matt Crime online dot Com

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Speaker 2: investigative reporter. The house was to be demolished, but that's

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Speaker 2: been delayed, especially since Coburger waived his right to his

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Speaker 2: speed trial. Now this delay, I believe has allowed prosecutors

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Speaker 2: and investigators to create a very detailed three D model

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Speaker 2: of the home, and that could potentially spared your rs

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Speaker 2: a visit to the crime scene that was left literally

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Speaker 2: quote dripping in blood. You know what, I would want

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Speaker 2: them at the crime scene, but that's just me. I

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Speaker 2: would want them to see the real thing. But I

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Speaker 2: would also like, Dave Mac that three D visual in

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Speaker 2: court for me to use those demonstrative purposes.

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Speaker 3: That's in the law.

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Speaker 2: You've got demonstrative evidence and you've got, as I call it,

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Speaker 2: real evidence. Real evidence is like fingerprints, DNA things taken

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Speaker 2: from the scene. Demonstrative evidence is evidence you create to

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Speaker 2: demonstrate something to the jury. Dave Mac, tell me about

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Speaker 2: why is the FBI sniffing around the King Road address.

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Speaker 10: Well, Nancy, they're building, as you mentioned, the models, Okay,

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Speaker 10: the three D model, and the real issue here is

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Speaker 10: it's a three story house on King Rhad and for

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Speaker 10: some people, including Vanikernodo's mom, they just don't see how

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Speaker 10: one person can accomplish all that happened, stabbing to death

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Speaker 10: four people in that building in a very brief period

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Speaker 10: of time. What the FBI is doing by building this model,

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Speaker 10: they're going to be able to walk the prosecution be

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Speaker 10: able to walk the jurors through it one by one

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Speaker 10: and show them how it could be done and was

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Speaker 10: done by one person they believe, Brian Koberger. They'll be

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Speaker 10: able to show them with that model exactly where he

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Speaker 10: came in, where he went, the timetable they built inside

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Speaker 10: the house, and how he exited.

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Speaker 6: They'll be able to do.

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Speaker 11: All that with this three D model.

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Speaker 10: That's why they're there.

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Speaker 2: That's going to be some three D model because you

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Speaker 2: know what the defense is probably going to do.

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Speaker 3: The defense is probably.

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Speaker 2: Going to turn around and ask to take the jarrs

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Speaker 2: to the crime scene and so help me. I would

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Speaker 2: not be trumped by the defense. If anybody was going

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Speaker 2: to demand a visit to the crime scene, it would

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Speaker 2: be me, the prosecutor. And you know why, because I

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Speaker 2: will want the defense to be able to argue in

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Speaker 2: closing arguments. They didn't want you to see the crime scene.

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Speaker 3: We did. What were they hiding? No? No, no, and no?

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Speaker 3: Who's that jumping in? It was Jean Jeane Fisher, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: jump in.

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Speaker 6: Well you have to remember too, I don't I really

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Speaker 6: don't believe that this case is going to take place

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Speaker 6: in Letah County, in the small community in Moscow, Idaho.

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Speaker 6: Boise is three hundred miles south and six hours on

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Speaker 6: the mountain road. Idaho Falls, which is maybe the next biggest,

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Speaker 6: is ten hours north of quarterly north of Moscow's Quartelaine

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Speaker 6: Coutney County. It's quite small, So I mean there are

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Speaker 6: there are some of those issues as well, quite frankly,

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Speaker 6: as well as far as the crime and getting back

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Speaker 6: up there and what that actually would entail.

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Speaker 3: Okay, let me ask you a lightning round.

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Speaker 2: Has the venue been changed yet, Jeane Fisher?

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Speaker 6: No, because they still haven't set the keys for trial.

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Speaker 3: Is there a motion to change venue? There won't be.

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Speaker 2: One until the case get set the trial, so no,

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Speaker 2: so let's burn that bridge when we get there. But

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Speaker 2: you're right, if the trial is moved, say five hours away,

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Speaker 2: it would not be expedient to take the jury five

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Speaker 2: hours away to see the crime scene.

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Speaker 3: That is why I predict if they do get.

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Speaker 2: Emotion to change venue, it will be moved maybe three

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Speaker 2: hours or less the way so the jury can go

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Speaker 2: see it in one day and return. Now, of course,

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Speaker 2: we learned that visiting a crime scene is fraught with

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Speaker 2: danger and reversible error because when you see the crime

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Speaker 2: scene it's not the same as it was the day

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Speaker 2: of the crimes. Number one that can be argued on appeal.

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Speaker 2: You don't know if somebody will be standing outside. How

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Speaker 2: easy would it be for some jackass to yell.

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Speaker 13: Out Coburger did it, or Coburger's innocent or something, and

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Speaker 13: that could ruin the whole case and be grounds for

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Speaker 13: emotion to dismiss the case and get a.

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Speaker 3: Whole new jury.

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Speaker 2: So when you take people to a crime scene, you

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Speaker 2: never know what's going to happen. And dare I remind

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Speaker 2: everybody on the panel. When my colleague Johnny Cochran May

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Speaker 2: he Rest in Peace, took the OJ Simpson jury to

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Speaker 2: the OJ Simpson home and they had completely done it over.

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Speaker 2: No more pictures of OJ with busty models around. There

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Speaker 2: were pictures instead of a Norman Rockwell painting and him

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Speaker 2: with his mother, and I think a giant cross was

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Speaker 2: put up on the wall. You don't know how that

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Speaker 2: scene is going to be altered by the time the

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Speaker 2: jury gets there. So doctor Angela Arnold joining me as

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Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, a renowned psychiatristy and find her at

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Speaker 2: angel Arnold MB dot com. Doctor Angie, there may be

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Speaker 2: more at play with the victims' families not wanting the

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Speaker 2: home to be torn down. Now, as I've told you before,

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Speaker 2: I have never once sought out the spot where my

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Speaker 2: fiance was murdered. I don't want to go there. Whenever

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Speaker 2: I think about it, sometimes it still gives me a horrible,

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Speaker 2: horrible you like a migraine headache, and I don't want

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Speaker 2: to go there. I don't want that in my head.

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Speaker 2: With everything else, but the significance of this home, I

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Speaker 2: don't know what it means to the four victims families.

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Speaker 14: Well, Nancy, right now it stands as a sort of

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Speaker 14: a shrine to what happened, and this is this isn't over.

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Speaker 14: I mean, the trial hasn't even started yet, and I

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Speaker 14: imagine what it signifies to the family. Is this, If

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Speaker 14: the house is torn down and demolished, it's over where

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Speaker 14: this happened, is over, like it never happened exactly, and

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Speaker 14: the man hasn't even been brought to trial. I mean,

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Speaker 14: I find it very disturbing that they want to tear

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Speaker 14: the house down, but you don't. There also doesn't need

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Speaker 14: to be a jump that goes from let's not tear

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Speaker 14: the house down to oh, we're going to bring the

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Speaker 14: jury there, but I think the house needs to stand

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Speaker 14: as the place where this happened.

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Speaker 2: Chris, Chris mcdonna, you're saying you agree, and doctor Angie,

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Speaker 2: I can't explain to you why I don't want the

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Speaker 2: house torn down yet maybe something along the lines of

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Speaker 2: it make it as if it never happened or plus

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Speaker 2: I mean to you, Chris mcdona, Director Call Case Foundation.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to circle back to doctor Monty Miller and

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Speaker 2: doctor Michelle dupre joining us.

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Speaker 3: Chris.

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Speaker 2: It ain't over until it's over, and I don't want

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Speaker 2: any destruction of evidence until this thing is over.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I think what's happening right now, Nancy, there is

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Speaker 5: why the FBI went back. Let's just talk about a

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Speaker 5: couple of things real fast. Is one, you know they're

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Speaker 5: doing a laser recreation right to create these three D

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Speaker 5: model and that's called a firo Faro. That's the device

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Speaker 5: that they use.

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Speaker 2: Well, you just like, all right, explain that place. I'll

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Speaker 2: just throw something out and drop it on as like

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Speaker 2: a bomb and not explain it.

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Speaker 11: That's sorry about that.

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Speaker 5: Well, what this device does is it spins in a

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Speaker 5: room and it can literally go down to an exact

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Speaker 5: you know, dimension, within an eighth of an inch, and

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Speaker 5: so it'll basically mirror everything withinside of that room. But

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Speaker 5: the other test that they're running in there, I would

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Speaker 5: assume is an acoustics test, and they're going to correlate

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Speaker 5: that back to any video that may have been in

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Speaker 5: the neighborhood, if there is sound on that video, and

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Speaker 5: they're going to correlate that to the exact spot of

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Speaker 5: where that sound would have originated of that house. So

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Speaker 5: to tear that house down right now. To Doctor's point,

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Speaker 5: and I know you talked about this early on, I

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Speaker 5: think that would be a very huge mistake ultimately until

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Speaker 5: the trial is completed, and at that point, you know,

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Speaker 5: let it be what it needs to be.

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Speaker 2: I know the state thinks they've gotten everything that they need,

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Speaker 2: and the defense has had the same opportunity.

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Speaker 3: As the state to inspect the home.

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Speaker 2: But I would rather them wait till it's all over.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Monty Miller joining me, director Forensic DNA Expert. You

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Speaker 2: can find doctor Monty at Forensic DNA Experts dot com.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Monty Miller, I believe they've gotten all the DNA

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Speaker 2: evidence that they're going to get. Once you let a

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Speaker 2: lot of people in the home. Evidence is ruined. They've

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Speaker 2: gone through the home and the fine tooth comb. But

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Speaker 2: what is your take on whether they should demolish the home?

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Speaker 11: Well, I mean, just from a crime scene DNA perspective,

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Speaker 11: you wouldn't want to destroy it because you don't know

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Speaker 11: if you're going to need that house again. You know,

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Speaker 11: the defense could raise issues, the prosecution could raise issues,

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Speaker 11: and at this point, you can always go back and

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Speaker 11: look at it once you demolish it. You know you can't,

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Speaker 11: and there's no real benefit to having it destroyed at

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Speaker 11: this point, So why not just keep it till the

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Speaker 11: trial's over.

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Speaker 2: Guys, A lot happening in the case right now, but

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Speaker 2: I want you to hear more. We've had the motion

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Speaker 2: to dismiss by the defense has been denied. We have

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Speaker 2: the FBI swarming the crime scene again. Now listen to this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I don't want them to not until after

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Speaker 4: the trial. I mean for obvious reasons. I mean obviously

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Speaker 4: the jurors would maybe want to do a walk through,

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Speaker 4: or you know, maybe there's something they missed. I mean obviously. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I definitely do not want them to tear it down,

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Speaker 4: not yet. Eventually, Yes, but but not until this is

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Speaker 4: all this is all blown over.

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Speaker 2: You're hearing Xana Kernoble's mother, Karen Northington, agreeing with us,

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Speaker 2: don't tear that house down now.

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Speaker 3: Her feelings, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't know if they're based in the evidence of they're

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Speaker 2: based in emotions, but she wants the house standing.

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Speaker 3: Let's move forward. Listen.

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Speaker 10: Brian Coberger's defense team now wants to know exactly how

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Speaker 10: DNA was collected at the crime scene that prosecutors say

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Speaker 10: places Coburger at the scene of the crime. The term

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Speaker 10: IgG stands for investigative genetic genealogy, and it was this

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Speaker 10: process that was used to collect DNA from another source

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Speaker 10: and then match it to the DNA found on the

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Speaker 10: knife sheath that was found on the bed next to

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Speaker 10: the bodies of Kayale Gonzavz and Madison Mogen. The sheath

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Speaker 10: was found face down, partially under Madison Mogan's body and

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Speaker 10: partially under a comforter on the bed. The DNA found

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Speaker 10: on the sheath was initially compared to DNA from trash

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Speaker 10: recovered outside the Coburger family home in Pennsylvania last year.

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Speaker 10: Using IgG allowed investigators to build a family tree of

437
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 10: potential relatives of the suspect. Once a cheek swab from

438
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 10: Brian Kober was obtained, investigators used a more drag DNA comparison,

439
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 10: using technology similar to that employed by services like ancestry,

440
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 10: dot com or twenty three and meters.

441
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: Okay, doctor Manty Miller with us famed DNA expert, Doctor

442
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 2: Manti explain and also, if you could give us a

443
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: dummy down for me, I'm just a trial lawyer, you're

444
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: the scientist, explain IgG, what are they talking about.

445
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 11: So what happens is in criminal investigations and with criminal

446
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 11: DNA that's typically used in court, they use one kind

447
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 11: of technology to read the DNA, A completely different kind

448
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 11: of you know technology is used for the Ancestry, the

449
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 11: IgG top type DNA. And so what they did was

450
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 11: they took the DNA and they ran it for Ancestry

451
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 11: in order to you know, develop the suspects, and they

452
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 11: use that to identify Coburger as one of the suspects.

453
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 11: Then they collected trash from the house to connect it

454
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 11: to Coburger's father and they could tell from that that

455
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 11: the DNA. At that point when they identified that it

456
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 11: was probably a son of the father, they were able

457
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 11: to get DNA from Coburger himself, compare it to the

458
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 11: DNA by traditional genetic forensic means, and they were able

459
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 11: to identify him that way. So the genetic genealogy, the

460
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 11: IgG stuff was used to find him. That's not what

461
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 11: was used to identify him as the person in the house.

462
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 11: But the same DNA was used, but it was used

463
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 11: first for genetic genealogy to find him, and then it

464
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 11: was run a separate way, a different time, by different

465
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 11: technology to identify him as the source of that DNA.

466
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,959
Speaker 2: At this juncture, the state is claiming they're not going

467
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: to use IgG that type of d in a process

468
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: at trial, but the reality is if the questions are

469
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: asked on cross it will come into play. To doctor

470
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: Michelle Dupree joining us a forensic pathologists, medical examiner, former

471
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: detective and Lexington County author of Money, Mischief and Murder,

472
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: The murderog Saga the rest of the story, and she

473
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: literally wrote the book Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Doctor Dupree.

474
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 12: Way in Nancy, you know, I think I understand it

475
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 12: sort of from both sides. But keeping the house, especially

476
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 12: right now, is so important because things could have been missed,

477
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 12: and I think that they need to go back and

478
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 12: be able to I would want the jury there. I'm

479
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 12: totally with you. I would want the jury to see this.

480
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 12: But if you're the defensitory, I guess you wouldn't.

481
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think the defense may be able

482
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: to argue all sorts of things once the jury gets

483
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: in that home. Big question is a jury going to

484
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: see the home. A lot of rulings that are going

485
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: to impact this case are happening right now.

486
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 3: Listen.

487
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 10: The DNA matching Brian Coberger to the knife sheath could

488
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 10: be the prosecution's strongest piece of evidence tying Coburger to

489
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 10: the murders. KTVB reports Coburger's lawyers claim they need the

490
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 10: information about the DNA collection to help prepare their defense,

491
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 10: but the prosecution says they did not use IgG to

492
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 10: obtain any warrants and they're concerned about innocent relatives' identities

493
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 10: being made public. Judge John Judge said he will consider

494
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 10: the interests of the defense and the prosecution as he

495
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 10: reviews all of the IgG information the state and the

496
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 10: FBI have, and then he will decide what can be disclosed.

497
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 2: This is what's happening. The state has used IgG science

498
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: to narrow down potential suspects. A well established a buckle

499
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: or buckleschool swab was used to positively identify Brian Coburger.

500
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: Coburger was all r already identified by his car. Isn't

501
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: that correct, Dave Matt? So the state could have gone

502
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: forward without the IgG test at all, based on the

503
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: car being probable cause right.

504
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 10: They were able to track Yes, then you're absolutely right, Nancy.

505
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 10: They had other means of going about this, which is

506
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 10: what they're pointing out now. They're saying that this IgG

507
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 10: stuff is irrelevant. It's not part of our case. It

508
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 10: was just a tool, but they had other ways by

509
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 10: identifying it. As you mentioned, the car, it is the

510
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 10: perfect you know, it actually puts him where he needed

511
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 10: to be in terms of what prosecution is looking at.

512
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 10: So you're dead on right. They had other ways of

513
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 10: going after Coburg or besides the IgG they're using all

514
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 10: the tools in the toolbox.

515
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.

516
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: Guys, the case is culminating, The case is rapidly moving

517
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: toward trial.

518
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 3: When will the trial date be? We all know.

519
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: That once the death penalty is announced then the delay

520
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: will be even longer. Take a listen to our friends

521
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: at crime Online.

522
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 10: The parents of Kaylee Gonzave has recently spoken about the

523
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 10: death penalty for the murderer of their daughter and three others.

524
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 10: Steve Gonzavez said they wanted the death penalty rather than

525
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 10: a life sentence, and he mentioned how BTK Dennist Raider

526
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 10: gets special treatment in prison because he's smart he writes

527
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 10: papers for other inmates, But a death penalty sentence would

528
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 10: put the killer in a cell twenty three hours a

529
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 10: day waiting, regardless of how long it takes before there

530
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 10: is an execution.

531
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: In the midst of all of this, one of the victims'

532
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: mother has been forced into the position of defending her

533
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: daughter's reputation. How is a beautiful young girl who was

534
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: murdered half asleep or fully asleep somehow become the target

535
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: of derision at false rumors? Listen to Kara Northington defending

536
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: her daughter.

537
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of rumors going around that

538
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 4: she was a drug dealer or this was somehow like

539
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 4: a cartel hit because she owed the cartel money. That's

540
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 4: just not true. She wasn't a drug dealer, was going

541
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 4: to school, she had a job, she was working, she

542
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 4: was doing all the right things. You know, she wasn't

543
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 4: She wasn't on drugs or dealing drugs. She did like

544
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 4: to party, she was in college. She drank with her

545
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 4: friends and party, but it wasn't anything like drug dealing

546
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: or anything like that. So I think I think those

547
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 4: rumors just really those have been Those are what I

548
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 4: would say have wronged her.

549
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: I don't understand it why crime victims as young and

550
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: innocent as these four are are being dragged through the mud,

551
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 2: Doctor Angela Arnold. To top it all off, here you

552
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 2: hear the parents of these victims having to defend the

553
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: reputations of their children. Who are these trolls attacking the victims.

554
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 14: I believe that people start rumors for a lot of

555
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 14: different reasons, and one of the reasons is so that

556
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 14: they can feel like, well, if I have never done that,

557
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 14: if I have never participated in that kind of activity,

558
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 14: or if my children don't do that, then they're less

559
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 14: likely to be murdered. So there's a reason why she

560
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 14: was murdered, and that it's just it's the most hideous

561
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 14: thing in the world to all of a sudden create

562
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 14: a story about a victim.

563
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: As if this girl is being was murdered because she's

564
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: part of the cartel of Courssianna had just turned twenty,

565
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: and she's what connected to a Columbian drug lord.

566
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: It's insane, And so.

567
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 14: What if she parties? Kids are supposed to party when

568
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 14: they're in college, and you're supposed to have a good time.

569
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 14: And so this girl gets ordered and now people are

570
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 14: going to say ugly things about her. Why weren't they

571
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 14: saying ugly things about her previous to them if she

572
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 14: was such a hideous person.

573
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 2: I mean, Chris mcdonnah, you have investigated so many homicide cases.

574
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: This is straight out of the defense playbook. Attack the victim.

575
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 2: Don't look at my client, look at the victim. They're

576
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: horrible and you could not find any more beautiful and

577
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 2: precious college students than these four. So what if she

578
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: had a couple of drinks. Nobody cares? She was slaughtered

579
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 2: in her sleep. Where's this coming from? And isn't it true?

580
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: You see it in practically every homicide case.

581
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 11: Yeah, but I.

582
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 5: Think we're at a a different point here, Nancy. I mean,

583
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 5: the stability of what's taking place here in our society.

584
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 5: This is just an example of it. This poor mother

585
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 5: when we hear her heartfelt pleased about defending the reputation

586
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 5: of her daughter. What's her crime?

587
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 11: Her crime?

588
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 5: As she went to bed that night and she was.

589
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 11: In her bedroom.

590
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 5: And yet this poor mother, and I know that feeling,

591
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 5: I know the depth of that feeling, and it's just horrible.

592
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: Jane Fisher, a veteran trial lawyer. That always happens, is

593
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: it right now? It's horribly wrong, And it always happens

594
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,720
Speaker 2: blaming the victim somehow.

595
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, it happens all the time, but I

596
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 6: think in this case it has really I mean it's

597
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 6: really bad. I mean, some of the things that have

598
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 6: been written in sad about the victims in this case,

599
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 6: you know, idea, even the surviving victims. I mean, it's

600
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 6: not it's wondering that they're they're they're attacking the victims,

601
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 6: but they're also really attacking the surviving victims and coming

602
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 6: up with these wild, wild stories. And I think the

603
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 6: comment about the lack of stivility really does show a sad,

604
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 6: really sad state of where we are right now in

605
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 6: our in our in our nation, and quite frankly, I

606
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 6: think there's a real lack of stability.

607
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 2: As long as I can remember uh, as far back

608
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: as I can recall trying cases, the victims are always attacked.

609
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: I don't think it's anything new. It's always happened, and

610
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: it's always been horrible. Listen to more of Xanna's mother

611
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 2: now in the position of having to defend her murdered's daughter.

612
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: Listen, Oh, Jannah.

613
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 4: Jannah was an amazing girl. She was just she was

614
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 4: really funny. She was fun to be around. You always

615
00:36:54,640 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 4: made sure everybody around her was having fun. She was

616
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 4: just very happy, very happy, go lucky person. She loved

617
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 4: her friends, loved her family very much. She's very dedicated

618
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 4: to everything she did. She was just an amazing person.

619
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 4: She's full of life.

620
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,479
Speaker 2: I hate that the mother is in this position where

621
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: she feels like she has to defend her murdered daughter's reputation.

622
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: Some world class a whole is spreading false rumors about

623
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 2: Xana and the other victims and the survivors. But Zanna's

624
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: mother has.

625
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 3: Come up with a very unique theory.

626
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 4: Listen to me, it seems like more than one person

627
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 4: did this in such a short amount of time, the

628
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 4: timeframe that they're getting. There's just no way that one

629
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 4: person could have done it. So I think that if

630
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 4: he is responsible, if he is, that he had help.

631
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 2: So trying to figure out who would that other person be.

632
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 2: To doctor Monte Miller, this is why the DNA is

633
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: so important. No other identifiable persons DNA is at the

634
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: same other van co workers.

635
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 11: Well, I did find some DNA from some other people,

636
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 11: but they weren't able to identify it. You know, that

637
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 11: was a house that other people were in. It wasn't

638
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 11: isolated with just the residents in there, so it's natural

639
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 11: that you would find DNA from other people that were

640
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 11: in that house, but they weren't able to identify it,

641
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 11: so they wouldn't be able to know whether or not

642
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 11: some of the other DNA was attached to the crime

643
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,959
Speaker 11: or whether it was just attached to somebody visiting. That's

644
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 11: different with the knife sheath, where that was clearly something

645
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 11: that was probably a part of the crime and had

646
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 11: the DNA from whoever brought that knife there. The other

647
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 11: thing is that I wanted to bring up about the

648
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 11: DNA is you know, with the defense wanting the you know,

649
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 11: DNA from the ancestry testing. Part of what they may

650
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 11: be looking for too, is did they develop any other

651
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 11: suspects other than Brian Coberger. So they want to know,

652
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 11: you know, do we have any value in that information

653
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 11: for us to find somebody else rather than our clients.

654
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 11: So there's a lot going on with the DNA here,

655
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 11: more than you would think. And they certainly are going

656
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 11: to try to identify any of the DNA that they

657
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 11: found in that house, but they don't necessarily have a

658
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 11: connection to the crime with any of the other DNA.

659
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: Exactly where the other DNA was found, I believe is

660
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 2: nowhere near the dead bodies, but we'll see. And doctor

661
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 2: Michelle Dupree forensic pathologists and expert, isn't it true that

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00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 2: the wounds on the victims' bodies indicate one type of weapon?

663
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 12: Yes, fancy that is true, and we can often tell that,

664
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 12: of course by the wounds themselves.

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00:39:58,520 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 3: How do you do that with knife ones?

666
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 2: This is very critical because it's right to question the evidence.

667
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 2: Xanna's mother's correct. You've got to test every piece of evidence,

668
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 2: see what it proves or disproves. And she should wonder

669
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: was there more than one person? As far as I

670
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 2: can evaluate the evidence and analyze it, it seems like

671
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: there's one person. Yeah, But you have to test the evidence.

672
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: So what do the wounds prove.

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00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 12: If anything, Well, we measure them. We measure the wounds,

674
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 12: and then we can actually make a cast or a

675
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 12: mold of the wounds many times, and then we can

676
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 12: compare that to a cast made from the actual weapon itself,

677
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 12: and they are very similar or similar enough that we

678
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 12: can say that that is the same weapon.

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00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: Justice moves forward as we wait for the trial of

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00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger.

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00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 3: Goodbye friends,