1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Just a note that we discuss offensive, racist, 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: and sexist language in this episode. In two thousand and seven, 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: the Rutgers College women's basketball team had a Cinderella season. 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Despite a rocky start and relative inexperience, they fought their 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: way to the final four. 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 2: Have to be so impressed with what Rutgers has done. 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 2: It was tournament they have just been sent. 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: Ultimately, they would lose the championship game to a powerhouse 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: Tennessee team, but the Rutgers women had still achieved the unthinkable. 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 3: When we returned to New Jersey, it was almost as 11 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 3: if we won. Our fans were so supportive, they were 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 3: so welcoming. 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: And then the morning after the game, a hugely popular 14 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: shock jocks named Don Imuss got on the air. 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 4: So I watched the basketball game last night between a 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 4: little bit Rutgers in Tennessee the women's final. 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: And with a string of racist and sexist comments about 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: the predominantly black team, I mis diminished their remarkable achievement 19 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: and threw them into a national firestorm. I'm Susie Bannacharum 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: and I'm Jessica Bennett, and this is in retrospect, where 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: each week we revisit a cultural moment from the past 22 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: that shaped us. 23 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 5: And that we just can't stop thinking about today. 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: We're talking about a college basketball team that was thrown 25 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: into the national spotlight against their will, but we are 26 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: also talking about who is allowed to respond in anger 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: when they are publicly targeted, and who gets centered when 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: these stories get told. This is part one. Jess, do 29 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: you remember this story? Do you remember when this all happened? 30 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 5: Yeah? I actually have quite a vivid memory of it 31 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 5: because I was in Newsweek at the time as a 32 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 5: young reporter, and Newsweek, who would do the story of 33 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 5: the week every week on the cover of their magazine, 34 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 5: put this on the cover. I remember the headline was 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 5: race power in the Media, and it had an image 36 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 5: of the basketball team against I Miss, looking sort of 37 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 5: stern and forlorn, and it was a huge deal. 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 39 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: I was at ABC when this happened, and it was 40 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: kind of an unavoidable story for a few weeks, right. 41 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: It just completely dominated national headlines, so much so that 42 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: I think there was a poll at the time where 43 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: people said they felt like it was getting too much coverage, 44 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 1: which is something we experienced a lot in media. I 45 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: think stories become red hot, and then they're sort of 46 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: obsessed over and then people kind of move on. 47 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 5: And it's interesting too because I guess don I Miss 48 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 5: was huge, That's what I learned when this story came out. 49 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 5: But I had never heard of him, Like, I don't 50 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 5: know if that was kind of an elite East Coast 51 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 5: thing to know about him, or maybe I wasn't running 52 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,839 Speaker 5: in those circles. I remember he didn't. He famously wear cowwabs. 53 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 5: He had this essence to him. He was hugely popular, 54 00:02:58,280 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 5: but I at the time was like, who the hell is? 55 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, weren't his demographic And I think also just we 56 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: didn't commute to work in a car, so we weren't 57 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: as likely to be into talk radio, right. 58 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 5: Well, okay, and so I remember him being a shock dooc. 59 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 5: I remember this story was a huge deal, but I 60 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 5: don't really understand sports. 61 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 2: I'm not a big sports person either, as you know. 62 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, I understand them enough, but I'm not a huge 63 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 5: sports person either. And so what exactly does he say? 64 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 5: And why? 65 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: So we didn't play the don Imus comments in the 66 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: introduction because I have to say they're quite jarring. I 67 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: remember hearing them all the time when it happened, but 68 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: for some reason, going back and listening to them again 69 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: feels really strange. They're so offensive. And I'm going to 70 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: play them for you now because I do think it's 71 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: important to hear them for yourself. But let me give 72 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: you a little context. The Rutgers women's basketball team has 73 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: made it to the Final Four. They've had this crazy 74 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: season where they were not expected to be a powerhouse team. 75 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: They are having this amazing moment. And the next morning, 76 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: don Imus gets on his radio show that he does 77 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: every morning. 78 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 5: Wait and quickly, how many people are tuning in too, 79 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 5: iMOS at this point? 80 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: Oh? 81 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: Millions. 82 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: He has millions of daily listeners across the country. He's 83 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: available on more than seventy stations, and in addition to that, 84 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: his show is actually simulcast on cable on MSNBC. So 85 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: he wasn't just a radio show. He was also a 86 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: morning show on television where they literally just filmed him 87 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: and his crew at the MIC's in the studio. 88 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 5: Oh okay, just talking. It's like very early podcast. 89 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, very early podcast. And roughly an additional three hundred 90 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: thousand people are watching on TV right. It's a sizeable audience, 91 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: and he has a lot of influence. 92 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 5: Okay, so back to the comments. 93 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the comments come on April fourth, two thousand 94 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: and seven, the same day the team has returned home 95 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: from the championship game and at the end of this 96 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: historic season, and don Imus has this exchange with his 97 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 1: executive producer on the show. 98 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 4: So, I watched the basketball game last night between a 99 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 4: little bit of Rutgers in Tennessee, that women's final. Awesome 100 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 4: rough girls, some Rutgers man, they got tattoos, and some 101 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 4: hardcore hos. 102 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: That's a nappy. 103 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 4: Headed dolls there. 104 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 5: I'm gonna tell you that, Jesus. It's like, you know 105 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 5: how they talk about bystander intervention. It's like, these are 106 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 5: these guys who are just like egging each other on, 107 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 5: and there's no sand person in the room to be 108 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 5: like whoa hey, Like it's not funny, and what you're 109 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 5: saying is deeply offensive. 110 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just disgusting. 111 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: And there's something so stark about how casually he's talking 112 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: about this group of college girls. And also something that 113 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: really bothers me about it is the way they're giggling, 114 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: like they just love how funny they're being. 115 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 2: Right. The other thing I think is interesting is that 116 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 2: he often would say, don I miss that it was 117 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: like a locker room. 118 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 5: He would say that his show was like a locker room. 119 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, like this is a locker room. 120 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 5: Oh wow, that is much more meaningful now and the 121 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 5: Trump era, Yes. 122 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: It makes me think of that whole thing when Donald 123 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: Trump was like, oh, I said I grabbed women by 124 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: the pussy, and it was just locker room top. 125 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 5: Locker room talk. So this is don Iamss's personal locker room. 126 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: And I think that's what's hard to listen to here, 127 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: the idea that this is just what a group of 128 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: white men say to each other when they think no 129 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: one's listening. 130 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: Or except. 131 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: Right, like, they felt comfortable saying this. They did not 132 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: feel like this was wrong in any way. They don't 133 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: seem even a little hesitant about it. 134 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 5: And you actually cut some of this. This isn't even 135 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 5: the full clip. 136 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 2: Correct. Yes, there's a longer version of this. 137 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: We did not include all of it because everything they 138 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: say is really offensive. And the part that really got 139 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: the most attention at the time was when and I 140 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: just want to say, even repeating this makes me uncomfortable, 141 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: but when he called them nappy headed. 142 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 5: Hose right, I remember that as being the headline. 143 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a really complicated insult. We'll get into 144 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: why that has cultural and racial underpinnings that make it 145 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: even more offensive than you might initially realize. But again, 146 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: these are kids, these are girls, and he's calling them horse. 147 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 5: This is the kind of trash that don iMOS was 148 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 5: known for. Correct. But who was iMOS? Can you tell 149 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 5: me more about him? 150 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,679 Speaker 2: Yeah? So he was kind of an odd character. 151 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: He was this really tall, lanky man who always wore 152 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: a cowboy hat and he carried a gun for protection. 153 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: He had this very famous ranch in New Mexico he 154 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: would go to a lot of the time when he 155 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: wasn't recording, and in the eighties he actually had a 156 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: pretty serious alcohol and cocaine problem and admitted later that 157 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: he was often drunk or hot during the show. So 158 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: even though he was really popular, he was very erratic, 159 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: Like he missed one hundred days of work in one year. 160 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: He would sleep on park benches, he would show up barefoot. 161 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: But he was the number one DJ in the country, 162 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: so he got away with a lot of that, and 163 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: then eventually they had to cut him loose and he 164 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: cleaned up his act and he went and did a 165 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: radio show somewhere else in the country and eventually made 166 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: his way back to New York. So he wasn't under 167 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: the influence when he made these comments, and he had 168 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: at this stage established himself as a very mainstream figure 169 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: in politics and journalism despite this crazy past. 170 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 5: I'm assuming he was a conservative. 171 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: No, actually he wasn't conservative. In fact, he had endorsed 172 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton in his first run. So what's interesting is 173 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: he was kind of equal opportunity. He to stand all 174 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: politicians and railed against them and said they were all phonies. 175 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: But he did occasionally endorse some and Bill Clinton was 176 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: one of those. But what's interesting is that the audience 177 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: was most likely Republican and conservative, because Republicans and conservatives 178 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: were about twice as likely to listen to talk radio 179 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: at that time. And I think the thing about Don 180 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: Imus is his audience was very varied, meaning a lot 181 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: of Washington elites listened to him, and also just random 182 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: Joe blow in the country. 183 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: But his famis was very attached to him. 184 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: I think partially because he was on the air for 185 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: so many hours it felt like you were kind of 186 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: part of this party. 187 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: I guess for lack of locker room, this locker room, 188 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: lock this locker room. Okay. 189 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 5: And so Imus was considered a shock jock, which sounds 190 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 5: very like eighties when we say it. Now, what does 191 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 5: that mean exactly, other than like doing wild antics? 192 00:09:53,559 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 4: I think's original old timer crazy. 193 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 194 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: So this was a term that was first used in 195 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: the eighties. It's essentially a radio personality who is deliberately 196 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: provocative and inflammatory and says really offensive things. So that 197 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: was kind of Imish's shtick anyway, But it was a 198 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: term most associated with Howard Stern. I don't know if 199 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: you know Howard Stern. He's a radio personality. He's still 200 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: on the air now, and he's the person who gave 201 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: rise to the concept. 202 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 5: Oh, he's the original shockjock. 203 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: He's not the original shockjock, but he's the one most 204 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: people think of when you say the word. 205 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 5: Okay, I'm looking at examples of what shockjocks are, like 206 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 5: attempting to sneak toy weapons onto a plane at an airport, 207 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 5: blocking off traffic lands in San Francisco during rush hour 208 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 5: while his sidekit got a haircut. I don't know what 209 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 5: the point of that would be. I do remember Howard 210 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 5: Stern always doing like creepy, gross sex things like having 211 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 5: women mud russel or other. But I guess I just 212 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 5: didn't realize they were like just doing dumb shit. 213 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it was incredibly juvenile, right, It was just silly. 214 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: But occasionally, because there was this undercurrent of sexism and 215 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: racism in a lot of these environments, sometimes the jokes 216 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: crossed the line into things that were pretty unpleasant. Most 217 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,239 Speaker 1: shock docs didn't have the kind of platform. I missed it, right, 218 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: I miss went from being this kind of thing, right, 219 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: this kind of jokester who was just calling a politician 220 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: to ask if he wanted to join show biz, or 221 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: calling a phone operator and asking her if she wanted 222 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: to mess around. He went from that to being a 223 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: more national figure because he actually was kind of intellectual. 224 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: So he started to ask people whose books he read 225 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: and whose ideas he was interested in to join the show, 226 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: and over time that became a really big part of 227 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: the show. So Bill Clinton, who I mentioned he endorsed, 228 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: appeared on his show regularly during his presidential campaign. Senators 229 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: regularly appeared on the show, and Joe Biden was one 230 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: of those senators. John McCain, John Kerry, and really famous 231 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: journalists at the time Tim Russert, who was the host 232 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: of Meet the Press for a long time at com Brokaw, 233 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: who was very famous Blake. It was a commonplace to 234 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: go for journalists who wanted to mix it up and 235 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: show that they weren't as stiff or stayed as they 236 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: appeared on the air. And interestingly, Barack Obama had once 237 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: been on the show. 238 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 2: And I think that just was because he had a 239 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: lot of power. Right. 240 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: He was on the air for many hours a day, 241 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: five days a week, and as I said, millions and 242 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: millions of people were watching, and his influence was very broad. 243 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: He was reportedly making almost ten million dollars a year 244 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: when this happened, which sounds like a lot, but his 245 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: employers at CBS were actually making fifty million dollars a 246 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: year office show, So he had the kind of power 247 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: you have for making that kind of money also. 248 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 5: Right, I imagine even someone like Charlotte Mane mcgod or 249 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 5: Joe Rogan would probably be the modern equivalent of that. 250 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, probably the closest thing we have. But to 251 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: be honest, it's just not the same, right because you 252 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: still make the choice to listen to those guys in 253 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: a way that if they were on your radio for 254 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: four hours a day, or on national times and four 255 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: hours a day. 256 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 5: And you didn't have another option, and you. 257 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: Didn't have as many options as we do now, you 258 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: would just happen upon them a lot. And because there's 259 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: no obvious modern equivalent, I actually called Jamel Hill, who 260 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: you and I both know. She's an Emmy Award winning 261 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: sports journalist who in two thousand and seven was actually 262 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: an ESPN columnist, and she covered this story as it unfolded. 263 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 6: Don Imus at the time was considered to be probably 264 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 6: the most powerful radio personality in America. He had an enormous, 265 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 6: massive platform. So if he says something on that show, 266 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 6: it's not hitting with a whisper, it's hitting like a thunderclap. 267 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 5: Oh, that's like the perfect quote. It's just making me 268 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 5: think back to this team. They're basically kids, they're out 269 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 5: of school like Ruckers. That's not necessarily a national brand. 270 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 5: They're not in the spolt in that way. And then 271 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 5: suddenly like bam, this guy is weighing in on them 272 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 5: and it's reaching a million listeners. 273 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Jamal talked about that too. 274 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 6: These women had just played on the biggest stage in 275 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 6: their sport. They had a phenomenal season, they were led 276 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 6: by an incredible coach, and so in that moment, even 277 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 6: with the disappointment of losing in the final four, it 278 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 6: was still very much a celebratory achievement for him. And 279 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 6: just upon hearing those comments and to see how it 280 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 6: went from people celebrating them to them just being degraded 281 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 6: in the next moment, it was disheartening, to say the least. 282 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 6: I just really felt for those young people because they 283 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 6: had achieved something really, really spectacular, and it just felt 284 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 6: like the moment was stolen from them. 285 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: You know, in a lot of ways, what Javelle is 286 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: saying is I wanted to look back at this, this 287 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: idea of having the moment stolen from them, because obviously 288 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: we were both working in news when this happened. But 289 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: I remember, even at the time, it really struck me 290 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: how young the team was. You know, it was five freshmen, 291 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: so we're talking about genuinely eighteen and nineteen year old girls, 292 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: and as I said, they were a majority black team, 293 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: and these comments just felt so cruel and ugly at 294 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: the time, and the headlines were so intense, right it 295 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: was as if they went from the end of their 296 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: season where they should have just been able to enjoy 297 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: that and chill and finally have a moment to reflect 298 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: to being in the hottest spotlight you could possibly be 299 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: put under. 300 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 5: Right, and the hottest news story of that moment. 301 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: And you and I know that when you get thrust 302 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: into these really hot spotlights we've worked on these kinds 303 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: of stories, right, it can feel like it obliterates everything 304 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: else in your life and that you're just come completely 305 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: taking it in from all sides, trying to figure out 306 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: how to navigate it. So I really wanted to understand 307 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: that part of the story better, and I reached out 308 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: to Essen's Carson, who is a WNBA superstar. She played 309 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: for the New York Liberty among others, and is now 310 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: a creative executive. But most relevant for this, she was 311 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: the captain of the two thousand and seven Rutgers women's 312 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: basketball team. 313 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 5: I just want to know that Essence Carson is like 314 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 5: a really big deal. Yeah. 315 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: I mean, she's obviously had this amazing career and been 316 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: able to put this in her rearview mirror. She doesn't 317 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: actually talk about this very often for obvious reasons. So 318 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: I was really grateful that she agreed to talk to me, 319 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: and she said, to really understand how deeply these comments 320 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: cut at the time, you have to go back and 321 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: understand what the team had gone through just to get 322 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 1: to the championships. 323 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 3: Just that group that was at Rutgers in two thousand 324 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 3: and seven, it was a very unique group. We all 325 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: come from all walks of life, but we all bought 326 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 3: into the idea of that championship and how we weren't 327 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 3: going to allow the lack of experience be the one 328 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 3: sole thing that keeps us away from that. 329 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 5: You've mentioned this a couple of times too, that they 330 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 5: were inexperienced. 331 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, the Rutgers team went into the season as underdogs 332 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: because they were a very young team. There were no seniors. 333 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: They had lost a lot of their really strong players 334 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: that year before, so it was mostly made up of 335 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: recent high school graduates now starting at the college level. 336 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: So the beginning of the season was rough. They were 337 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: losing games. There was a game early on that they 338 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: lost by forty points at home. That was pretty much 339 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: unheard of at Rutgers. 340 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 3: It was a tough toll to swallow. It's embarrassing. No 341 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 3: true competitor, everyone wants to lose in that but it 342 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 3: happened all right, and you know that was that was 343 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 3: the beginning of you know, the wake up call. 344 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 5: Okay, wow, so things were going really poorly, but then 345 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 5: they turn it around. What does that? 346 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: Honestly, it seems like it was just sheer grit. 347 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: They had an amazing coach, this Hall of fame coach, 348 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 1: Vivian Stringer, who is very famous in women's college basketball, 349 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: and essence told me that she very aggressively pushed them 350 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: to get their act together, and they did really coming 351 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: together as a team. 352 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 3: The world in the beginning was a bit bumpy, but 353 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 3: what truly makes a great team is how you overcome adversity. 354 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 3: And after overcoming a slow start, we were able to 355 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 3: regroup and figure things out, leading us to a Biggia's 356 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 3: championship and onto our historic run in the NCAA tournament. 357 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 2: Will you tell me what it felt like going back 358 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: when you won that last game that meant you were 359 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: going to the final four, and just did that feel amazing? 360 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 2: I just I can't imagine what that felt like. 361 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if there are any words to describe 362 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 3: that feeling. It's imagine losing everything and getting it back 363 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 3: and at that time winning it all. You know, when 364 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 3: you're looking at the Big East Tournament, you know that 365 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 3: was just one step, and then it's like, oh, we 366 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 3: can keep going, we can keep this thing going. There 367 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 3: were just truly no words that can explain that. It 368 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 3: was an unreal ride. 369 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: For sure. 370 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 5: Oh that's interesting. I really hadn't realized how up and 371 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 5: down the season had been for them. 372 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really had been a wild season. But sadly, 373 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: like all good things, it does come to an end. So, 374 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: as I said in the introduction, they go up against 375 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: this powerful, top seeded team in Tennessee for the championship 376 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: and they lose, but there's still a lot to celebrate. 377 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: It was definitely bittersweet. Of course, there were tears shed 378 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 3: in the locker room after that loss, because it's like, oh, 379 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 3: you were so close. You almost completed the Cinderella story. 380 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 3: You were so close. Of course, those feelings set in, 381 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 3: but in the same we were reminded that what we 382 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 3: had done was amazing. When we returned to New Jersey, 383 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 3: it was almost as if we won. Our fans were 384 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 3: so supportive, they were so welcoming. The fanfare was amazing. 385 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 3: Even the people at the airport, the firefighters, everyone the 386 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 3: entire state of New Jersey was so proud of us. 387 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 3: It was like they went on that ride with us, 388 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 3: you know, it was like they climbed from the bottom 389 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 3: with us. They wanted to remind us that, hey, good job. 390 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 5: I love hearing her describe how they arrived home to 391 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 5: this kind of heroes welcome. But at what point then 392 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 5: did they actually hear about these comments? 393 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: So Essen said she first heard about the comments right 394 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: after they had a. 395 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 3: PEP rally, immediately after it concluded. It was almost like 396 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 3: it was still going on a bit, and I don't 397 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 3: remember what we had to do next, because this moment 398 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 3: actually kind of just took over everything. I remember coming 399 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 3: down and we were on the court and our sid 400 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: at that time, Stacy Brand, she would handle like the 401 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: publicity to media requests for the team. She came to 402 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 3: me and asked me, did I hear what was said 403 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 3: or what happened? And I had no clue what she 404 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 3: was talking about. And then she gave me, you know 405 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 3: what happened, blow by blow and even had the transcript, 406 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 3: and I was blown away by what was said, mainly 407 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 3: because I couldn't fathom anyone being able to say things 408 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: of that sort live on air. Although I was no 409 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: stranger to racism and the nuances of it, I didn't 410 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 3: necessarily think it would be possible, and especially you know, 411 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 3: towards a group of young women and like ourselves. 412 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: Had you heard of Don Aimas when this happened. Did 413 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: you know who he was? 414 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 3: No? No, But I also don't think I was just demographic. 415 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: Do you remember when you actually heard it for the 416 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: first time. 417 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 3: I think I heard snippets at first. It was being 418 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 3: played everywhere, so you would hear snippets even if you 419 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 3: didn't want to encounter, and you kind of just did. 420 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 5: It's maybe hard to remember now because we don't have 421 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 5: radios and televisions on all the time and we're always 422 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 5: on our phones, but to describe just how saturated the 423 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 5: news was with what she is talking about, like truly, 424 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 5: I remember it was on every cable news channel, It 425 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 5: was playing on the radio at all times. It was 426 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 5: on the cover of the weekly magazines, It was in 427 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 5: the paper, and every single article was repeating the comments 428 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 5: over and over and over again. So you can just 429 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 5: imagine they get home and suddenly they are just hid 430 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 5: in the face with this statement. 431 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that really struck me too, because it's just this 432 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: idea that even if they had wanted to get away 433 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: from it, they didn't have that choice. Initially, they tried 434 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: to ignore his comments. They chose to go home early. 435 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: It was Easter, so they went home to spend Easter 436 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: with their families. But they were being bombarded with requests 437 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: for comment, and also just every time they turned on 438 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: a TV or walked into a store where the radio 439 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: was on, it was just being played everywhere. 440 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 5: I imagine too, the reporters are like camping out at 441 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 5: the school trying to get statements like it probably was 442 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 5: a very tabloid esque situation. 443 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, she said they were being accosted even when they 444 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: were just like trying to go to class or go 445 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: to the cafeteria. Okay, but they were trying to see 446 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: how the story played out before they decided what to do, 447 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: and the story just kept growing. What's interesting about this 448 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: is that it was an early example of something going viral, right, 449 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: Like you can imagine if this happened today, it would 450 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: be all over TikTok and Twitter immediately, But back then 451 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: that's not really how a story grew. 452 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 5: Do we know how it initially took off? Who noticed 453 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 5: that this had occurred, and how did it spiral from there? 454 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: It was actually a guy at Media Matters, which is 455 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: a left leaning media group, who flagged the clip. He 456 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: had gotten a tip and he dug it up and 457 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: he sent it around to their newsletter and then it 458 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: was stood on YouTube. And YouTube had launched in two 459 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: thousand and five, so it had just pretty recently become 460 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: really huge. And for context, in one of the articles 461 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,479 Speaker 1: I read, they mentioned that it was such a huge 462 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: story that this YouTube video had gotten a million hits, 463 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: which is a lot of hits, but today it would 464 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: get like ten million hits, right, right, so this might 465 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: have been like missed or ignored. 466 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 5: That's so interesting because had this happened even a few 467 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 5: years before, Yes, he's got this huge following on radio, 468 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 5: but like a thing happens on radio and then it's over, 469 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 5: you're not recording the clip and sending it around, right 470 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 5: like you're not with the call set tape r exactly, 471 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 5: So like maybe some people would have been offended, but 472 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 5: it would have just disappeared. 473 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the world. Don I miss really knew? Right, 474 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: He'd been a radio host for a long time pre internet, 475 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: so when the Internet changed the landscape. I think it 476 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: was a real shift for him, and this was the 477 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: first time he really came to understand that. And CBS 478 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: and MSNBC, who were his employers, CBS ran his radio 479 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: show and MSNBC simulcasted on the air. I think they 480 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: were both waiting to see if this would blow over 481 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: like the other things he had said, because he did 482 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: have a history of saying really awful things. 483 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 5: I guess I'm asking you to repeat all the awful things, 484 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 5: but what are what are some of the awful things? 485 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 5: Can you say the ones that aren't that of what 486 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 5: are the ones you say? 487 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I can say them carefully, And yes, he 488 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: and his merry band of idiots just had this horrible 489 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: history of saying controversial or offensive things. And I literally 490 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: cannot go over all of them because there's so many 491 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: racists and sexist and anti Semitic and homophobic things. I mean, 492 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: islahob Yeah, they checked all the boxes every day as 493 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: far as I can tell. But the one that really 494 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: stood out to me is that after the Rutger slurs, Gweneiffel, 495 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: who was this groundbreaking and widely admired journalist and relevant 496 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: for this conversation. A black woman wrote an op ed 497 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 1: for The New York Times about how I Miss had 498 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: once said about her when she was a reporter for 499 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: the Time. Isn't the Times wonderful? It lets the cleaning 500 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: lady cover the White House? Oh wow, right, it's just disgusting. 501 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 5: He said that to her face. 502 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: No, he just said it on the air about her. 503 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 5: He said it on the air. Oh my god. 504 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, he said it on the air about her. And 505 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: she said she suspected it was because he had once 506 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: or twice asked her to be on the air and 507 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: she just hadn't had time to go on, so he 508 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: had held this grudge against her. But it's just a 509 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: really terrible way to talk about someone. And you know, 510 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: I mentioned Howard Stern. Interestingly, Howard Stern and Don Imus 511 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: did work together briefly in the eighties and then became 512 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: bitter rivals. They hated each other for the rest of 513 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,479 Speaker 1: their careers, and despite his own history of controversy, Howard 514 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: Stern came forward during this time and said that when 515 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: they had worked together in the eighties, he had heard 516 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: I Miss call a black female coworker the N word, 517 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: and Robin Quivers, who was one of Stern's co hosts 518 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: said that he had also called her the N word 519 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: to her face when they were working with him. Oh wow, okay, 520 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: and just to put a cap on that, I miss 521 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: had also called Howard Stern a jew bastard on the 522 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: air in nineteen eighty four and suggested he should be 523 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: put in an oven. 524 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 5: Wow. What is mind boggling to me is that this 525 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 5: is a man saying these things who then turns around 526 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 5: and has all of these really prestigious people on his show. 527 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 2: Right. 528 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: I mean, Howard Stern was also controversial, but he didn't 529 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: have Senator Biden and mckayn on his show, so I 530 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,719 Speaker 1: think he just didn't reach this level of scrutiny. Another 531 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: example that comes out after all this is that in 532 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, when Don Imss was doing an interview 533 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: for sixty minutes, he told one of the producers off 534 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: camera that his executive producer was hired to perform nward jokes. 535 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: And to be clear, he didn't say the N word. 536 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: He said the word. 537 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 5: None of these cases he's saying. 538 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: And worright right, he's saying the word. 539 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 5: What does that even mean? 540 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: What it means is that he want someone making those jokes, 541 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: and so he hired this man to be the racist 542 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 1: on the show so he could be a little less racist. 543 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 2: I guess. 544 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 5: Honestly, it's shocking that he was still in the air. 545 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, two thousand and seven doesn't feel like 546 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: that long ago. So it is shocking that he had 547 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: gotten away with this blatant bigotree for so long. But 548 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: the Internet wasn't the same, you know, as it is now, 549 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: and don Imus wasn't used to being held accountable. So, 550 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: you know, initially, in the day after he makes the comments, 551 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: he goes on the air and he says he's heard 552 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: a few people are upset, but basically everyone needs to 553 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: calm down because it's just an idiot comment that was 554 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: meant to be amusing. But pretty quickly it becomes clear 555 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: that this time is going to be very different for 556 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: don Imus. 557 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 5: Susie. Before the break, you were giving us a rundown 558 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 5: of some of the terrible things that has said about 559 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 5: various people, But the comments he made about the Rutgers 560 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 5: women's basketball team really weren't blowing over. So what happened next. 561 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: Actually, Jamel Hill, who as I mentioned, was a columnist 562 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: at ESPN at this time played a role in making 563 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: sure the comments were heard pretty broadly. 564 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 6: It struck me because of his having that kind of 565 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 6: platform and for a lot of his listeners who maybe 566 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 6: have never heard about this team or didn't know anything 567 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 6: about them, and the very first thing that they hear 568 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 6: about is them being called nappyheaded. 569 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 3: Ohs. 570 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 6: He ridiculed them, he demeaned them, he denigrated him. And 571 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 6: as a black woman in sports myself during that time, 572 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 6: all of those things resonated deeply inside of me, and 573 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 6: so I felt like I had to speak out about 574 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 6: it and make it known that this crossed so many 575 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 6: lines for so many different reasons, from a gender perspective, 576 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 6: a racial perspective, and I thought it would be a 577 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 6: disservice for somebody not to stand up for those women. 578 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 5: That's so interesting what she's saying in terms of all 579 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 5: the different ways that across these lines. How does Jamel 580 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 5: make sure that the story gets national attention. 581 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: Well, what happens is the day after the comments, Jammel 582 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: hears them and sends them to the email list for 583 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: the National Association of Black Journalists, and then they become 584 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: really widely circulated among black journalists in general, and by 585 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: the next day, the NABJ issues a statement saying that 586 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: they are outraged and disgusted and they demand an apology, 587 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: but also they call for him to be immediately fired. 588 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 5: That's so interesting too, because with so many of these 589 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,959 Speaker 5: stories like this, it takes someone in some position of 590 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 5: power to really raise the alarm on it. And so 591 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 5: having someone like Jammel in a position of power who 592 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 5: can then reach out to this whole association of black 593 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 5: journalists like her, who can put out this statement goes 594 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 5: to show why it matters so much to have media representatives. 595 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and she actually explains why she thinks there was 596 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: more of a reaction this time. 597 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 6: It was different because we're talking about college kids and 598 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 6: we're talking about young women, and I think it resonated 599 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 6: a little bit differently. Sometimes when you have people like 600 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 6: that who constantly say the same things or the same 601 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 6: type of destructive things about people, it starts to become 602 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 6: a little bit of white noise. Not that it was 603 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 6: ever right with the other things that he said, but 604 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 6: it was who he picked. He had done it before, 605 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 6: and there was a track record of him particularly saying 606 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 6: and espousing some pretty dangerous tropes about black women. And finally, 607 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 6: I think a lot of people said enough is enough. 608 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 5: I think what Jamal is saying about the tropes is 609 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 5: such an important point, and I know that she's going 610 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 5: to talk to us about this a bit more later, 611 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 5: but I think it's worth noting that part of what 612 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 5: she's referring to, I presume, is the incessant conversation about 613 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 5: black women's hair texture on how it has been used 614 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 5: against them. 615 00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 616 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I think this idea that black women men's 617 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: natural hair is somehow unkempt or untidy or unclean, that 618 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: is really a racist trope that black women have had 619 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: to fight against for a really long time. So he 620 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: is tapping into something with real historical context. 621 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 5: I want to take us back to the timeline. So, Okay, 622 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 5: the team has returned, they've gone home for Easter. They 623 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 5: are being bombarded by the press. As we just heard 624 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 5: Jamal say, the National Association for Black Journalists has now 625 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 5: called for his firing. But Susie does don Imus ever 626 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 5: finally apologize. 627 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: He does finally apologize, so a few days later, when 628 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: it is obvious that it is not just going to 629 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: blow over, he issues a formal apology on his show. 630 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: Here's what he said. 631 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 4: I want to take a moment to apologize for and 632 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 4: in sensitive and ill can sive remark we made the 633 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 4: other morning referring to the Rutgers women's basketball team. It 634 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 4: was completely inappropriate and madn understand why people were offended. 635 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 4: Our characterization was thoughtless and stupid, and we're sorry. 636 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: Clearly a scripted apology, not his usual off the cuff remarks. 637 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 5: Right right, not how you expected on I was an 638 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 5: issue in apology exactly. 639 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 2: It obviously wasn't like from the heart. 640 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: It was clear that he was starting to feel some 641 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: heat here, but it was too little, too late, and 642 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: it did not stop the backlash. More and more mainstream 643 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: press started to pick up the story, and significantly. Al Sharpton, 644 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: who as you know, is a longtime civil rights activist 645 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: and who has a big media profile, especially at that time, 646 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: enters the fray and also demands that I must be fired. 647 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: He says that he's happy to accept his apology, but 648 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: he wants his bosses to accept his resignation as well, 649 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: so it's not dying down, and Imus agrees to go 650 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: on Al Sharpton's show, who also has a radio show 651 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: at this time, as sort of a mia culpa and 652 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: to deny that he's a racist, and he says that 653 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: he and his sidekicks were just trying to be funny 654 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: and that you know, he understands now why it wasn't funny, 655 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: but that he was never intending to be racist. 656 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 2: I mean, okay, sure, yeah. 657 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: Ultimately, though, it starts to get contentious and he makes 658 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: things much worse because he says at some point to 659 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: Al Sharpton and his black co host, I can't get 660 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: anywhere with you people. 661 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 2: It's like, if you're. 662 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: Trying to apologize, perhaps you don't use another widely understood 663 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: racial trope, which is to call black people you people, 664 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 1: you people. 665 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 2: Wow. 666 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 5: Okay, So I guess my next question then, is what 667 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 5: are his bosses doing while all of this is going 668 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 5: on and he seems to be just digging himself deeper. 669 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a great question. They are panicking. 670 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: By all accounts, they are doing meetings with their internal staffs. 671 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: Black employees are going to and BC bosses to be 672 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: like what the hell. CBS is trying to decide what 673 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: to do. But remember they're making fifty million dollars, so 674 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: they are very reticent to fire him. So instead they 675 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: try to just suspend him for two weeks and hopes 676 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: that that stops the damage, and that is again not 677 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: well received. No, and now we really see a cascade 678 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: of media, people's words, people, politicians, even Obama. 679 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 5: Okay, I was wondering. I had wanted to ask, but 680 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 5: I didn't want to mess up our flow. 681 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: Great cresident. So, as I said, Obama had been on 682 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,240 Speaker 1: the show. He was a senator from Illinois. At this time, 683 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: he has already announced he's running for president, and so 684 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: people are asking about it, and he does also demand 685 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: that I must be fired. He says he didn't just 686 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: cross the line. He fed into some of the worst 687 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: stereotypes that my two daughters are having to deal with 688 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: today in America, which does again really remind you that 689 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: these are just kids. 690 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 5: So is this all happening over days or weeks? What 691 00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 5: is the timeframe here? 692 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: It's really over the course of a week that we 693 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: get to the apology and then the Sharpton Show and 694 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: all this backlash, and then finally the team decides that 695 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: they have to respond. They can't wait any longer because 696 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: at this point it's really becoming untenable for them to 697 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: just you know, go to class. 698 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 5: Students. Yeah, so you need to play basket. 699 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: So they decide to do a press conference. And here's 700 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: Essence again on why they decide to do that. 701 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 3: The press conference. Well, the press conference was seen as 702 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 3: the best way to move forward. Why because you have 703 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 3: a group of young women somewhere in between the ages 704 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 3: of eighteen and twenty that aren't only athletes, but they're students. 705 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: So when you're trying to go to class, or you're 706 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 3: trying to, I don't know, go get some lunch at 707 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 3: the calf, just basic things, you're being chased by media outlets. 708 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 3: You lose your privacy and at the end of the day, 709 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 3: we like to get our education. So I, coacher and 710 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 3: the rest of the staff came with the idea of 711 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 3: a press conference because then that way you can address 712 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 3: everyone at one time. So make sure that we were 713 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 3: able to get together collectively and take a stand together 714 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 3: and control our narrative because it was already spinning out 715 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 3: of control. 716 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: Jess, I think, actually this is a pretty good place 717 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: to end it, with Essence having this last word, because 718 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: things are spinning out of control, but the team is 719 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: about to take control of the situation and there will 720 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: be a turning point with this press conference, so please 721 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,439 Speaker 1: join us next week for part two and we will 722 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: tell you all about it. This is in Retrospect. Thanks 723 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,799 Speaker 1: for listening. Is there a pop culture moment you can't 724 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: stop thinking about and want us to explore in a 725 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: future episode. Email us at Inretropod at gmail dot com 726 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: or find us on Instagram at in retropod. 727 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 5: If you love this podcast, please and review us on 728 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 5: Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you hate it, 729 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 5: you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, which we 730 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 5: may or may not delete. 731 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: You can also find this on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 732 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 733 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen. 734 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,720 Speaker 5: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media. 735 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 5: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 736 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,720 Speaker 5: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharon 737 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,240 Speaker 5: Atia is our researcher and associate producer. 738 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 739 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stemp and Katrina Norbel. 740 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda 741 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are 742 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: your hosts Susie Bannaccarum. 743 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 5: And Jessica Bennett. We are also executive producers. For even more, 744 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 5: check out inretropod dot com. See you next week.