Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If
Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two people. That's
Speaker 1: a lot of people's lives destroyed. If the system wants
Speaker 1: to take you out of society, they will do it
Speaker 1: no matter what lords they have to break, saying that
Speaker 1: they are enforcing the lords, but they're breaking the lord.
Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty
Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then
Speaker 1: here my family break down behind me and not be
Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the
Speaker 1: crushing weight that was. I'm not anti police, I'm just
Speaker 1: anti corruption. A lot of times we look and we
Speaker 1: see something happened to somebody, and that's the first thing
Speaker 1: we said, that could never happen to me, But they can.
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 1: Jason Flam Today, I have a truly extraordinary guest, a
Speaker 1: gentleman named Malcolm Alexander, who was released from prison three
Speaker 1: weeks ago after serving almost thirty eight years for a
Speaker 1: crime he did not commit. Louisiana inmate is a free
Speaker 1: man this afternoon after he was clearing of a rape
Speaker 1: that happened back in nine st Judge throughout fifty eight
Speaker 1: year old Malcolm Alexander's conviction after defense attorneys argued that
Speaker 1: Alexander's trial lawyer failed to point out the victim has
Speaker 1: been doubtful when she identified him. Alexander spent thirty eight
Speaker 1: years at Angola for the crime. Malcolm, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: And with him today is his son, Malcolm Jr. Who
Speaker 1: is forty years old. He was too at the time
Speaker 1: that his father was sent away. So Malcolm Junior, welcome
Speaker 1: to wrong for Conviction. And we have a return visit
Speaker 1: from one of Malcolm's extraordinary lawyers at the Innocence Project,
Speaker 1: Vanessa Potkin, who is the director of post conviction Litigation. Vanessa,
Speaker 1: welcome back, Thank you for having me. Great to be here. So, Malcolm,
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the beginning, before this
Speaker 1: whole insane saga started. Let's go back to where you
Speaker 1: grew up and how you grew up and what your
Speaker 1: life was like as a child as a young man. Well,
Speaker 1: very simple, sir, play sports and George biking, done a
Speaker 1: lot of fishing. What kind of sports? I mean, you're
Speaker 1: a pretty big guy, look like you might play some football,
Speaker 1: played a lot of football. Came up from Junior High
Speaker 1: Too High playing football, went to John Eric Wordly Middle School,
Speaker 1: and I left from Worrely Middle School, went to West
Speaker 1: Jefferson High. From West Jefferson High went to Joan Eric
Speaker 1: And after that, yeah, yes, I just went into the
Speaker 1: working world. What were you working at? My seperate jobs,
Speaker 1: it was like a oncet. I worked for International Tank Terminal.
Speaker 1: I worked for Fleet Company. I worked for Golf Central Road.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of jobs for a guy who is
Speaker 1: still just a teenager. Really at the time. Right, you
Speaker 1: had your son, Malcolm, who is sitting here in Malcolm Jr.
Speaker 1: Sitting here with you know you had him when you
Speaker 1: were very young, Yes, sir, I had him actually a
Speaker 1: lot of scaling uh high school. And that's the kind
Speaker 1: of reason why I had all the job because I
Speaker 1: was playing football plus working at the same time. Right,
Speaker 1: So you had a very busy life. We had a
Speaker 1: good life, yes, sir, And you got a great son
Speaker 1: out of it. Was now a man obviously grew up
Speaker 1: without his father. And of course now I got to
Speaker 1: just get this out. You have a grandson, Malcolm the third, sir.
Speaker 1: It's amazing your grandson is twenty, which is the same
Speaker 1: age that you were when when you were locked up.
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. I mean, that really gives a sense of
Speaker 1: the timeline and going back and we were talking like
Speaker 1: who is president when you were locked up? I think
Speaker 1: we were doing quarter time. Jimmy Carter was the president. Wow,
Speaker 1: that does give a sense of of how long ago
Speaker 1: it really was. So how did this happen? And then
Speaker 1: we turn to Vanessa for a second. Can you take
Speaker 1: us through how this began and why it was allowed
Speaker 1: to continue when there were so many obvious signs that
Speaker 1: he wasn't the guy. Sure. In nineteen seventy nine, a
Speaker 1: woman was minding an antique shop that she had just
Speaker 1: opened when a black man that she had never se
Speaker 1: before came into the store and basically attacked her from
Speaker 1: behind at gunpoint, took her into a small bathroom in
Speaker 1: the back of the store, where he sexually assaulted her
Speaker 1: twice and then fled. And this was the rape of
Speaker 1: brutal rape of a white woman by a black male
Speaker 1: in the Deep South in ninety nine. And we'll get
Speaker 1: into the fact that there was a cross racial identification
Speaker 1: or misidentification, which we know is a is a huge
Speaker 1: problem because scientific study after study have proven that our
Speaker 1: memories are totally fallible. In this case, the identification was
Speaker 1: made four and a half months after the crime, right,
Speaker 1: and good luck trying to remember what you were doing
Speaker 1: four and a half months ago or any details of that.
Speaker 1: But then when it's across racial identification, of course the
Speaker 1: odds of a correct result go down dramatically, and this
Speaker 1: had all of those factors right, that's right. The victim
Speaker 1: in this case was attacked in an antique store that
Speaker 1: she had just opened. It was early in the day
Speaker 1: and a man came in with a gun. Most of
Speaker 1: the attack happened from behind, and it was at gunpoint.
Speaker 1: We know weapon focus is also a big issue in
Speaker 1: misidentifications because when a crime happens with the weapon, people
Speaker 1: tend to look at the weapon, not the person who
Speaker 1: was holding the weapon, and really be focused on what's
Speaker 1: happening there. So the assailant came into the store armed
Speaker 1: and the victim was held at gunpoint throughout the entire attack,
Speaker 1: and then the perpetrator fled, so she had a very
Speaker 1: limited opportunity to to see the person who did this,
Speaker 1: and over four months went by with no identification. Made
Speaker 1: or you know, no suspect in the case. Unfortunately, in
Speaker 1: March of nineteen, Malcolm Alexander had a consensual relationship with
Speaker 1: a white woman and it turned out that she was
Speaker 1: a sex worker and wanted money from him, and when
Speaker 1: he didn't give her the money, she made a false
Speaker 1: allegation of rape, and that charge was immediately smith. It
Speaker 1: was not pursued at all. Absolutely, the police found no cooperation,
Speaker 1: they didn't pursue it. But the lead officer who responded
Speaker 1: to that case had also been the lead officer on
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy nine rape in the antique store. And
Speaker 1: so when Malcolm Alexander came in and told police exactly
Speaker 1: what happened and made a statement, the officer said, hmmm,
Speaker 1: and this isn't the reports. You know. There was something
Speaker 1: about him that reminded him of the previous incident that
Speaker 1: by now had been unsolved for you know, just about
Speaker 1: four months from our take. The only thing that similar
Speaker 1: between both incidents is that the victim was white. Otherwise
Speaker 1: they were completely different than the perpetrator was black. Correct,
Speaker 1: and well, there was no perpetrator in the ones. In
Speaker 1: both cases, it was a sexual event. What you want
Speaker 1: to call it between a black male and a white woman.
Speaker 1: But other than that, there is one was consensual, one
Speaker 1: was not. There's no similarity. That was just a terrible
Speaker 1: coincidence that happened to put Malcolm in the crosshairs of
Speaker 1: the parties, right, I guess coincidence or racism on the
Speaker 1: part of the investigating officer both both. And once he
Speaker 1: was put into the photo ray, then the factors that
Speaker 1: you were discussing before kick in, and you know, this
Speaker 1: is night and the lead detective is administering the photo ray,
Speaker 1: which we know today by best practices, is not how
Speaker 1: it should be done. That should be a blind lineup
Speaker 1: where the person conducting the ray doesn't know who the
Speaker 1: suspect is, so they can't intentionally or unintentionally conveyed cues
Speaker 1: to the eyewitness as to who to pick. But the victim,
Speaker 1: she picked him out tentatively and said she wanted to
Speaker 1: see him again in person. So three days later they
Speaker 1: didn't in person lineup, and Malcolm was the only person
Speaker 1: from the photo array who was repeated in the in
Speaker 1: person lineup, right, which again is going to be a
Speaker 1: very suggestive protocol. Malcolm, what was going on in your head?
Speaker 1: Because here you are one day, you're working on several jobs,
Speaker 1: you're playing sports, you're raising your family, and and you
Speaker 1: get arrested. Did you even know about this crime? Had
Speaker 1: you heard anything about it? Was it talked about in
Speaker 1: the neighborhood? No, sir. And actually when I was approached
Speaker 1: about it, I volunteered to go to the lineup because
Speaker 1: I was actually sitting in the parish waiting to get
Speaker 1: out on bill. And when they approached me about this
Speaker 1: crime here, and they asked me what i'd be willing
Speaker 1: to appear in front of the lineup. I know I
Speaker 1: hadn't done anything, you know far as in that case
Speaker 1: there what they're talking about. Someone else said that I
Speaker 1: may have raped them, But all the time I know
Speaker 1: I hadn't reaped in and wanted the beginning. And then
Speaker 1: she picked you out of the lineup, That's what I
Speaker 1: was told. So you weren't even made aware of it
Speaker 1: at that time, no, sir. So what happens next? All right?
Speaker 1: I think it was the next day that came back
Speaker 1: and booked me or something like this. Here the attorney
Speaker 1: that I had with me at the lineup, his name
Speaker 1: was Ralph Burnett, and I wind up dismissing him. He
Speaker 1: was another pairing attorney who asked the questioning to me,
Speaker 1: do I go around raping on white women? So I
Speaker 1: had to uh just miss him. I called my parents
Speaker 1: and explaining to my parents what was happening, and I
Speaker 1: guess to let him know what that he would fire it.
Speaker 1: And that's when we went and got Joe Tosh with
Speaker 1: the way in the fact that Joe Tosh and Robert
Speaker 1: Burnett was actually working out the same office. It didn't
Speaker 1: even know that, sir. I mean, that sounds like an
Speaker 1: office from hell. Because this guy Tosh was one of
Speaker 1: the most incompetent and even evil characters that the American
Speaker 1: Bar Association has a level ever allowed to become a lawyer.
Speaker 1: How he became a lawyer in the first place as
Speaker 1: a mystery, But the fact is that he was later
Speaker 1: disbarred for such egregious misconduct or whatever you want to
Speaker 1: call malfeasance and competence. And in your case, it actually
Speaker 1: bears read because it defies the imagination to see what
Speaker 1: is possible in our criminal justice system. And I'm going
Speaker 1: to read something here. He repeatedly failed to appear in court,
Speaker 1: missing both the arrangement and the sentencing that alone is
Speaker 1: giving me the chills. It's just shocking. I mean, how
Speaker 1: can a lawyer not show up? It's just I mean,
Speaker 1: and there and there you are probably wondering, where's my
Speaker 1: lawyer at right? How does anybody would be Okay, take
Speaker 1: a second here. He also failed to file important and
Speaker 1: basic pleadings with the court. He never challenged the circumstances
Speaker 1: of the identification, which would be lawyering one oh one, Vanessa.
Speaker 1: The list goes on. He did not prepare an opening statement,
Speaker 1: failed to properly cross examined witnesses, sometimes asking no questions
Speaker 1: at all, and gave just a four page closing argument
Speaker 1: and then, as if to put an explain nation point
Speaker 1: on this whole nightmare scenario of American jurisprudence. Despite explicitly
Speaker 1: telling Malcolm and his family that he would appeal to
Speaker 1: the decision, he never did so. Um, this is hard
Speaker 1: probably for a lot of people to believe that in
Speaker 1: the situation in which literally your life is in this
Speaker 1: guy's hands, because you were facing and ultimately were given
Speaker 1: a sentence of life at hard labor with no possibility
Speaker 1: of parole, and this guy didn't even bother to do
Speaker 1: things that any first year law student would have done. Um,
Speaker 1: and it's a terrible failure that nobody steps in, and
Speaker 1: there's got to be someone who's gonna go, wait, this
Speaker 1: is not okay, and that should have happened in your case.
Speaker 1: There should be some check and balance where when an
Speaker 1: attorney fails so terribly it doesn't take years and years
Speaker 1: and years and then wait for the guy to get
Speaker 1: this barred after he screws over so many other people too.
Speaker 1: I mean, God knows the trail of destruction and misery
Speaker 1: that he left. How many more Malcolm Alexander's are out
Speaker 1: there that had the terrible misfortune and not only be
Speaker 1: wrongfully accused and arrested for something and charged, but then
Speaker 1: to be represented misrepresented by this small evil man. Um,
Speaker 1: it's uh, this is America. That shouldn't happen. Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1: So how long did you have to wait for your
Speaker 1: trial to start? Think about three months? Because um, it
Speaker 1: was a time that uh, I actually went to Jackson,
Speaker 1: Mississippi for the criminal and saying for a little while,
Speaker 1: they're trying to buy time to get a lawyer to
Speaker 1: investigate the case. Because at some point in there he
Speaker 1: was explaining to me about the date that the crime
Speaker 1: happened on, and then by time I made back, then
Speaker 1: you're telling me about it happened on another date. And
Speaker 1: at the time I was working, so we was trying
Speaker 1: to establish me an alibi, my my family and us
Speaker 1: to get with my boss to show the lawyer because
Speaker 1: he really wasn't doing know what we call leg work,
Speaker 1: and the information he was kind of like giving us
Speaker 1: about the case wasn't really never measuring up because we
Speaker 1: discovered that after him constantly saying the date was off.
Speaker 1: So we just couldn't necessarily afford to go and get
Speaker 1: another lawyer just like that, and I had made a
Speaker 1: decision about had actually having my own paid attorney, So
Speaker 1: just one thing led to another, and I just wound
Speaker 1: up sticking with him, and my boss, who I was
Speaker 1: working for doing contract work with, he like, what's going on?
Speaker 1: His question asked, what was the lawyer actually saying the
Speaker 1: date that it happened on that Pacific date? Because he
Speaker 1: had wanted to come to cold and testify that much.
Speaker 1: We did run by the lawyer, but there was something
Speaker 1: that he just never follow up on. So your boss,
Speaker 1: who would have been probably a very believable witness as
Speaker 1: somebody who was a successful businessman and point people like yourself.
Speaker 1: I never got the chance to get understand and tell
Speaker 1: people where you really were that day exactly. And were
Speaker 1: you aware at this time that this lawyer was really
Speaker 1: selling you down the river? No, sir, not really, because
Speaker 1: I went into the system trusting it, not believing that
Speaker 1: you know, they actually can find me guilty or he
Speaker 1: he got allowed me to be found guilty or something
Speaker 1: I didn't do. And I considered, once all the facts,
Speaker 1: is actually knowing about the case, you know it would
Speaker 1: prove that I didn't do it. That seems to be
Speaker 1: a common thread, right. You believe from the beginning that
Speaker 1: the system would work for you because you knew that
Speaker 1: you weren't there, you weren't the guy, and in fact,
Speaker 1: you didn't even match the description as it turns out.
Speaker 1: But it failed that every step of the way. And
Speaker 1: there are so many things that just one thing could
Speaker 1: have gone right and would have changed the whole outcome
Speaker 1: of this thing, but instead everything went wrong. So the
Speaker 1: day of the trial comes and you're still believing that
Speaker 1: the jury is going to hear the facts and they're
Speaker 1: going to recognize that there's a big, big mistake. You're
Speaker 1: gonna go home to your family. So what was that
Speaker 1: day like? Well, I'm sitting there, me and my family
Speaker 1: and the lawyer and let's see, I'm listening to him
Speaker 1: call witness who testified, asked her, well, this investigating the
Speaker 1: met this week we was calling he had calling that
Speaker 1: and there getting like a narrative of the events that
Speaker 1: it was taking place, that surround the crime, where it's
Speaker 1: going to the sea, collecting every dance. And then we
Speaker 1: got over to the doctor where they brought up to
Speaker 1: the hospital. Then we went to the doctor who exambled
Speaker 1: her and he gave his findings and stuff like this
Speaker 1: here in some way and there he's more or less
Speaker 1: repeating thanks what she said, more than actually gave his
Speaker 1: expert analysis of the test results and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But I'm listening to all this show, but then nothing
Speaker 1: actually is printing the thing at me until we got
Speaker 1: to the final stage when we went to talking about identification.
Speaker 1: So I'm saying, well, just the only thing they're talking about,
Speaker 1: this identification that actually connected me with this. We had
Speaker 1: no other witness, no nothing, I mean, no finger press,
Speaker 1: no blood tests, nothing, nothing but identifications. So I'm saying,
Speaker 1: all right, let's see and the rest of the fact
Speaker 1: that the only evidence against him was I witness identification
Speaker 1: months and months after the fact. Had you been representing him,
Speaker 1: what would you have done well, I would have challenged
Speaker 1: the idea. I mean, there was a lot that the
Speaker 1: lawyer could have done based on the actual facts of
Speaker 1: the case, the fact that the victim did not have
Speaker 1: a good opportunity to view the assailant, that the attack
Speaker 1: happened from behind, that the assailant had a gun to
Speaker 1: the victim's head throughout most of the attack, and like
Speaker 1: Malcolm said, there was just a very vague description of
Speaker 1: the assailant, you know, just basically general height, general appearance, race,
Speaker 1: but you know, nothing specific. And the victim's identification came
Speaker 1: over four months after the crime happened, in these suggestive
Speaker 1: identification procedures where he was repeatedly shown to the victim.
Speaker 1: And what's most important is that the second time the
Speaker 1: victim was shown Malcolm was in this live lineup, and
Speaker 1: even that second time through that suggestive procedure, she was
Speaker 1: not positive that he was the assailant. Her identification was
Speaker 1: documented as possible and tentative, and that was the lineup
Speaker 1: report that was prepared by the officer who conducted the
Speaker 1: identification procedure. What happened to the guilty beyond all reasonable
Speaker 1: doubt thing, Well, that is just not what happened here.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's so enraging, as you said,
Speaker 1: to listen to this story and to kind of relive
Speaker 1: it again with Malcolm, because here he is twenty years old.
Speaker 1: His life is at stake, right, He's gonna be sentenced
Speaker 1: to life with no possibility parole, which is the mandatory
Speaker 1: sentence in Louisiana for aggravated rape, which just means any
Speaker 1: type of rape with force. And so he's on trial
Speaker 1: for his life and his lawyer is not doing anything.
Speaker 1: I mean, imagine your first lawyer says to you, do
Speaker 1: you like raping white woman? It's like who that's your defender,
Speaker 1: that's supposed to be your advocate against the government coming
Speaker 1: after you with all of the resources that it has
Speaker 1: to prosecute you for this crime. And then he goes
Speaker 1: to trial and his trial last one day. In one day,
Speaker 1: they pick a jury, have opening statements, present all of
Speaker 1: the evidence. I mean not opening statements by Malcolm's lawyer,
Speaker 1: but the state. They present all of the state's case,
Speaker 1: the defense doesn't call a single witness. The jury deliberates
Speaker 1: and returns the verdict. You know by six pm. It's
Speaker 1: insane that justice. Yeah, one day, you're really right to
Speaker 1: put that in very stark, you know light, because one
Speaker 1: day that's what Malcolm's life was worth. Two pretty much
Speaker 1: everybody in that courtroom, right, even his defender, he didn't
Speaker 1: want to be bothered. Obviously, he didn't show up, he
Speaker 1: didn't do any research, he didn't call any witnesses, he
Speaker 1: didn't do anything that he was supposed to do, and
Speaker 1: any I keep harping on that because it's madness. And then,
Speaker 1: like you said, one day and everybody go home and
Speaker 1: go get somebody and watch the news and go to
Speaker 1: sleep or whatever they do. Right, and he goes off
Speaker 1: to prison for the rest of his life. And it
Speaker 1: takes thirty eight years to unravel this disaster and to
Speaker 1: bring him back home to where he belongs. I want
Speaker 1: to get to you in a minute, Malcolm Junior, because
Speaker 1: I mean you were you were just a baby at
Speaker 1: the time. Were you even aware of any of this stuff?
Speaker 1: Because you were between two and three while this was
Speaker 1: taking place, right, who took care of you during this
Speaker 1: time between my mom and grandmother and grandfather and my
Speaker 1: mom mom. So all my grandmother's, my mom my ain'ties.
Speaker 1: They all stepped up. And how difficult was it for you?
Speaker 1: I mean, was there a stigma attached to it? Did
Speaker 1: other kids have an idea that your dad was in prison?
Speaker 1: And what did that mean? And how difficult was it? Well,
Speaker 1: none of the kids knew. I didn't even know in
Speaker 1: the beginning. But as I got older, desk, when I
Speaker 1: became aware of you know, when we all go see him,
Speaker 1: and I'm young, I'm wondering why he can't come with me,
Speaker 1: you know, when you would go visit them and Gold. Yes,
Speaker 1: when I go visit him and Gold. So, like I said,
Speaker 1: going there from two years old, growing up, going there,
Speaker 1: and as I got old, I'm like, he asked my grandmother, like,
Speaker 1: my why my dad can't come? You know, so she'll
Speaker 1: be like he coming, he just can't come right now.
Speaker 1: So then as I got old, it's like, oh, this jail,
Speaker 1: like my dad in jail. So because there nobody actually
Speaker 1: fully told like sit down and told me your dad
Speaker 1: is in jail. So I just had there as I
Speaker 1: got order figure it out on my own, and and
Speaker 1: then it's like, man, what my dad in jail for?
Speaker 1: You know? So I'm getting bits and pieces. And then
Speaker 1: as I got older, and still they talked to him
Speaker 1: like like my my uncles and my aunts and everybody,
Speaker 1: like everybody in the neighborhood, like, man, your dad didn't
Speaker 1: do that. You know. Once I got up in age
Speaker 1: and they're talking about the case, like your dad and
Speaker 1: never do nothing like that. They have to do is
Speaker 1: race cars and play football and things like that. So
Speaker 1: I never felt any you know, far as not believing
Speaker 1: that he didn't do it, because everybody that ever knew
Speaker 1: him always had something positive to sell about them, and that,
Speaker 1: you know, they wronged him, and you know, things like that.
Speaker 1: So you don't seem well, both of you, neither one
Speaker 1: of you seem angry. I mean, did at any point
Speaker 1: did you become angry at the system because you knew
Speaker 1: that your dad was in this. And we've seen different cases.
Speaker 1: We've been people on the show where their children actually
Speaker 1: thought they were guilty because they were told that the
Speaker 1: father was guilty or their mother. But how did you,
Speaker 1: how did you process that? I don't know, I feel
Speaker 1: like I would have been very angry. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: was mad growing up with with your dad not there
Speaker 1: and he missed in your life and you get them
Speaker 1: folks in the role you'll be neating you your dad
Speaker 1: in the house and that father figure. So he always
Speaker 1: was in my life talking to me over the phone,
Speaker 1: but that's not him in the presence of being there
Speaker 1: to be able to put his foot down in things
Speaker 1: that when I'm getting out the way with my mom
Speaker 1: all doing things I shouldn't be doing, you definitely need
Speaker 1: your dad there. So, yeah, I was mad. Let's go
Speaker 1: back to the trial day. There's this one day trial
Speaker 1: and now it's getting to be late afternoon, early evening.
Speaker 1: Did or he goes out. They deliberated I think for
Speaker 1: less than an hour, right, less than an hour? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they come back. Did you believe at this point having
Speaker 1: now seen the whole day's proceedings, and you get a
Speaker 1: sense when you're in that room you sort of make
Speaker 1: some eye contact with the jurors and whatnot, Right, what
Speaker 1: was going through your mind and what was that moment like,
Speaker 1: uh when they came back into the court room. The
Speaker 1: honest it was like a toss up because the lawyer
Speaker 1: really didn't say much into my defense. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: get you an idea of high ward for me. Really,
Speaker 1: I could say it back then and opposed to high
Speaker 1: see it now and make me know because I really realized,
Speaker 1: you know a lot that he didn't do. It's all right,
Speaker 1: But it was like, is this really happening? To be
Speaker 1: honest withcher, I couldn't really believe that it actually taking place.
Speaker 1: They actually couldn't believe that we had got this far
Speaker 1: with it, right, because you should have never even been
Speaker 1: on trial in the first place. We know that, well,
Speaker 1: I don't want to minimize the idea of three months
Speaker 1: in jail waiting your trial, But had it resolved at
Speaker 1: that point, you could have gone on with your life
Speaker 1: and piece things back together, maybe gotten your job back
Speaker 1: and gone back to raising your family, etcetera. But then
Speaker 1: there was that moment when they announced their verdict. It
Speaker 1: was shocking. It was hurting because I remember my mother
Speaker 1: busting out crying, my sister started crying, and my dad
Speaker 1: had just hid. Then he looked on their face. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I came. And remember even if the lawyer said everything
Speaker 1: onna be all right or not and all, I can't
Speaker 1: even remember that because really are paying attention more to
Speaker 1: my family then, because thank you. See, thinking now, I
Speaker 1: realized when I got found guilty, they got found guilty,
Speaker 1: it just was more than just me. There was finally guilty.
Speaker 1: And uh, once I actually stepped out their present, that's
Speaker 1: when I started crying and really really say they and
Speaker 1: affect me a lot of trying to remain strong for
Speaker 1: them at that time. And then not too long after that,
Speaker 1: I guess you were taken off to what is one
Speaker 1: of the worst prisons anywhere in the world, really and
Speaker 1: gola Um and it's really a slave plantation. And in fact,
Speaker 1: from what I understand, you were actually made to pick
Speaker 1: cotton in the beginning, right, which is an image that
Speaker 1: is just mind blowing. Yes, sir, Yes, when I got there,
Speaker 1: were still picking cotton. We're still picking oachres. We're stire
Speaker 1: picking the corn, very the vegetable. And then they have
Speaker 1: a two what they called a hole actually was a
Speaker 1: tree branch with a piece of mellow on the end
Speaker 1: that we was using to sprad the roads with a
Speaker 1: tree branch with a piece of metal in it describe
Speaker 1: the road, Yes, sir, So it's pretty much like a
Speaker 1: change gang more or less. You don't think about it.
Speaker 1: We didn't actually have to change us. We had to
Speaker 1: cut gals and everything and a certain paramele. We had
Speaker 1: to stay within. Here you are an innocent man, take
Speaker 1: it away from your family and your life and everything else,
Speaker 1: put into this basically hell on Earth. How did you
Speaker 1: managed to persevered? What kind of strength does it take
Speaker 1: to deal with almost four decades in that environment knowing
Speaker 1: the whole time that you're innocent. Well, most people when
Speaker 1: they go into the institution that discover it try to
Speaker 1: adjust to the institution, but it's got pocketed inside the
Speaker 1: institution that is educational and positive and by me. Actually,
Speaker 1: alfway has worked. When I was in the free world
Speaker 1: and going into that type of environment field work and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, it was kind of that readjusting, And
Speaker 1: I know it always was a place that I didn't
Speaker 1: want to be, that I shouldn't have been in the
Speaker 1: first player. So it was a question is what can
Speaker 1: I do? How can I maintain that? Actually it would
Speaker 1: help me to get out of here. And like I
Speaker 1: always tell people, getting mad when they're gonna solve the problem.
Speaker 1: I was somewhat angery in the beginning because I know
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be here as common, but that didn't solve
Speaker 1: my problem. So during my appeal stage and once it
Speaker 1: was overwhere and went into my post conviction, we had
Speaker 1: this lawyer who actually suggested, because we had to go
Speaker 1: in and high and not a lawyer to do the peers,
Speaker 1: we actually had this not a lawyer who suggested to
Speaker 1: my parents that I could file my own post conviction.
Speaker 1: So from that and when my parents mentioned that to
Speaker 1: me and said that the lawyers said where you could
Speaker 1: take time out by you being there and learning the
Speaker 1: law and do your own post conviction and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: And I didn't even get mad about that because it's
Speaker 1: the truth, you know, that's started me, That's started me
Speaker 1: into pursuing my freedom on my own. And how did
Speaker 1: you find out about the Innocence Project? Right? One of
Speaker 1: the prison magazines that I had received had the Innocent
Speaker 1: Project addressing information you on it. So you just sent
Speaker 1: off a letter and then and then how did you
Speaker 1: find out? Did you get a letter back say and
Speaker 1: we're gonna take your case? Yes, I did. I did
Speaker 1: receive it, and it actually brightened me to be honest
Speaker 1: withcher because I tried hard to contact other organizations and
Speaker 1: trying to get them interesting in case. And Malcolm Jr.
Speaker 1: How where were you during this time of this stuff.
Speaker 1: Did he call you and say, hey, guess what, I
Speaker 1: got some great news? Or you must have been trying
Speaker 1: everything you could do as well to help him because
Speaker 1: you knew he was innocent as your dad and I
Speaker 1: can see you love him. So yeah, I had got
Speaker 1: a couple of lawyers myself once I got up in
Speaker 1: age and went to making money. Ain't nothing he called for.
Speaker 1: I didn't try, you know, we we we was trying
Speaker 1: and investigators trying this, go talk to this one, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, putting my money up, me and
Speaker 1: my grandmother gonna get this lawyer, that lawyer. So it
Speaker 1: is whatever he needed. I was there and was willing
Speaker 1: to do whatever it takes to try. But when he
Speaker 1: called and said, hey, man, they found some evidence. Because
Speaker 1: he had been writing down into Jefferson Paris for the
Speaker 1: years and years and years with new evidence. And when
Speaker 1: he called and said and they said they found some evidence,
Speaker 1: and we were like, oh yeah, you know, we were
Speaker 1: just very excited about that. And then also when he
Speaker 1: said that the Innocent Project is going to take the
Speaker 1: case again, he said, man, we're good, we're straight, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be there. And this was just in the beginning.
Speaker 1: We were just so happy about that, you know, just
Speaker 1: I was very happy and please, yeah, Vanessa, back to you.
Speaker 1: So originally, when the inst Project got involved, the evidence
Speaker 1: was nowhere to be found, right, So um, you know,
Speaker 1: Malcolm really reached out in the early days of our history,
Speaker 1: and in nine six we started working on his case
Speaker 1: and a law student reached out to the court clerk's
Speaker 1: office that was supposed to have all the trial exhibits,
Speaker 1: and I think it was in an earlier day of honesty,
Speaker 1: got a letter back saying we inadvertently destroyed all of
Speaker 1: the evidence. We shouldn't have. It was a mistake. Today
Speaker 1: they probably would have just said, yeah, as lost, we
Speaker 1: can't find it, but they actually copped to the fact
Speaker 1: that they had destroyed it. Just a couple of years
Speaker 1: after his trial, you know, LUNTI, he was still on
Speaker 1: post conviction. So there was seem an evidence that had
Speaker 1: been left that we could have tested, but it had
Speaker 1: been destroyed. And so we because we were just focused
Speaker 1: at the time on DNA cases, we closed out Malcolm's
Speaker 1: case and nine D six, but he didn't give up.
Speaker 1: You know, he kept on filing motions. He kept on,
Speaker 1: as Malcolm Jr. Said, reaching out to the officials in
Speaker 1: Jefferson Parish. And so his persistence paid off in two
Speaker 1: thousand thirteen when they responded to him and said, actually,
Speaker 1: even though all of that evidence at the courthouse had
Speaker 1: been destroyed, there was some hairs that had been collected
Speaker 1: from where the victim was raped, and those had been
Speaker 1: kept at the lab. So they found this envelope that
Speaker 1: would turn out to be the key to his freedom.
Speaker 1: Are there rules for the safeguarding and the storing safe
Speaker 1: storing of evidence from cases around the country, So unfortunately,
Speaker 1: there are no uniform rules. Some states have preservation laws
Speaker 1: that require evidence to be held onto but in some
Speaker 1: states it's perfectly fine to destroy evidence after a direct appeal.
Speaker 1: So that's something that has to be changed. I mean,
Speaker 1: how can we have somebody in prison and destroy evidence
Speaker 1: that could one day, you know, show that we got
Speaker 1: it wrong. And we know that technology constantly evolves, so
Speaker 1: there's just no reason to be destroying biological evidence that
Speaker 1: could cut to the truth in a case. It could
Speaker 1: not only prove that the person that's in there is
Speaker 1: their own but could also show who the right one
Speaker 1: is and then do society a big favor by getting
Speaker 1: that predator off the streets. So back to you, So
Speaker 1: now here it is again, like I said, I mean,
Speaker 1: what a roller coaster ride, because after sixteen long years,
Speaker 1: you get the golden tickets, so to speak, right the
Speaker 1: instance projects taking your case. Then you get the huge
Speaker 1: disappointment finding out that the evidence, which is what you
Speaker 1: need in order to be able to prove what you know,
Speaker 1: is gone. That would be the time when it would
Speaker 1: have been convenient for you to just say, you know what,
Speaker 1: I give up. I can't. I mean, who can. The
Speaker 1: highs and lows are insane, But seventeen more years you
Speaker 1: persisted until one day two thousand and thirteen, after thirty
Speaker 1: three years, and even that's five years ago now because
Speaker 1: we're in two thousand eighteen. Obviously it's remarkable. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's uh, it says a lot about you. I don't
Speaker 1: know who could who could do that? You're doing this
Speaker 1: hard time in the best way that you possibly can, right,
Speaker 1: doing positive things, staying close with your family, fighting to
Speaker 1: prove your innocence. And then three weeks ago on January
Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen, almost thirty eight years a lifetime. Okay, Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's just process that. What was that day? Like, No,
Speaker 1: so I actually was in the coat room when I
Speaker 1: found out, and really I was fighting back to tales.
Speaker 1: It almore went through I got I'm staying I went
Speaker 1: through a life I deny you. And when I say,
Speaker 1: like Eric Corner, that I would turn no matter whether
Speaker 1: I was writing or even wrong, I just say right,
Speaker 1: because I knew I was right on the right trio.
Speaker 1: I was always constantly being told that you know, it's wrong,
Speaker 1: it's not gonna happen. You know, we deny and we
Speaker 1: deny and we deny you and be honest with you.
Speaker 1: My true freedom date date that I knew that I
Speaker 1: truly was gonna get out when Mr Vanessa actually believe
Speaker 1: in me being innocent, and she always told me then
Speaker 1: that she will be with me to the end. And
Speaker 1: if I told her people such as just it's remarkable
Speaker 1: or irreplaceable. And that's when I believe that I was
Speaker 1: gonna get out, that's when you believed and and that's
Speaker 1: a very powerful statement. Um, but then you went to
Speaker 1: court and this is the opposite. Now right now, we're
Speaker 1: thirty eight years later families there. Yes, Sir Malcolm Jr.
Speaker 1: Were you there that day? And you were there, Vanessa right.
Speaker 1: It was actually an incredibly stressful day because we had
Speaker 1: done DNA testing in Malcolm's case, and as of July
Speaker 1: two thousand and seventeen, we had some indications from the
Speaker 1: prosecutor's office that they were recognizing that this was a
Speaker 1: erroneous conviction and would potentially be moving with us to
Speaker 1: vacate the conviction. But it was seven excruciating months of
Speaker 1: getting to that point, and even as of the morning
Speaker 1: of January, we were not certain that they were going
Speaker 1: to vacate the conviction. So when Malcolm says he learned
Speaker 1: that he was being exonerated in court, he really did,
Speaker 1: because we didn't know as of that morning what was
Speaker 1: going to happen. And it was incredible pressure because Malcolm
Speaker 1: was in court, he had been waiting on the quote
Speaker 1: unquote one yard line for seven months. His entire family
Speaker 1: was there, and we didn't know whether they were going
Speaker 1: to agree or ask for more time. Okay, so now
Speaker 1: back to you, welcome, Okay, So you're there, Vanessa stre
Speaker 1: Us and out Um. I know the family has got
Speaker 1: to be on ten, right, stress level and you're there,
Speaker 1: You've seen everything. Now, so what happened? How did it
Speaker 1: come down? Ah? How do you ways saying waken up
Speaker 1: from a coma? I mean it was like it happened
Speaker 1: to be alive. I mean everything that I actually ever
Speaker 1: went through preparing myself for this one day, it was
Speaker 1: all worth it. I mean, keeping clear, not getting any trouble,
Speaker 1: learning much as I can learn. I mean, just preparing
Speaker 1: myself to one day actually returning to society. Would she
Speaker 1: finally said that she had to say my immediate release. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was like it did it mean? Like did she
Speaker 1: really see immediately because of thinking my head to go
Speaker 1: back to a gola? I thought you're gonna sen me
Speaker 1: back there in gola. Um. But so those were the
Speaker 1: words the judge said. There was some arguments back and
Speaker 1: forth whatever, and then the judge said, what I mean,
Speaker 1: it's unfortunately not what you would want it to be
Speaker 1: in every way, because you want the state to say
Speaker 1: on the record we're sorry. You want the judge to
Speaker 1: publicly acknowledge all that has been robbed from Malcolm and
Speaker 1: his family who were there in court. And while everyone
Speaker 1: was cordial and the conviction was vacated it. Certainly it
Speaker 1: wasn't what he was owed at that moment, but he
Speaker 1: was getting out and so there was a big sense
Speaker 1: of joy. And his mom was in the courtroom and
Speaker 1: probably twenty or thirty family members at least. That's must
Speaker 1: have been a raucous And what did you do? Did
Speaker 1: you turn around and and did you jump for joy?
Speaker 1: I stayed pretty calm. I stayed pretty comb I don't
Speaker 1: know I can explain it. It's just the institutional life.
Speaker 1: It prepares you for moment slect that. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like it don't take your spirit, but it makes you
Speaker 1: live a hart of life, not your emotions so much. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: let me get the family perspective from Malcolm Jr. Because
Speaker 1: you're sitting there in the courtroom with the twenty or
Speaker 1: thirty family members, however many it is, but it's your dad.
Speaker 1: There's nobody closer to Malcolm in the courtroom than you
Speaker 1: because yours blood. So what was your reaction and what
Speaker 1: was the family's reaction? I mean, did you even believe it? Uh? Well,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. We droned for joy. You know,
Speaker 1: we were very excited and uh were, like she said,
Speaker 1: it was she we were sitting there just waiting and waiting,
Speaker 1: and we didn't know if it was going to happen
Speaker 1: that day. But when it did, yeah, we we we
Speaker 1: we just jumped and clapped and laughed and cried whatevery,
Speaker 1: you know, just surreal, like I just couldn't believe that
Speaker 1: they had came. So yeah, we were. It was excited,
Speaker 1: very excited. And then did you just walk right out
Speaker 1: into the daylight? And where did you go? Went down
Speaker 1: to booking. I had to have a change of clothes
Speaker 1: and everything, and they had to like process me out
Speaker 1: and from that, Yeah, at the signs, some released paper
Speaker 1: and then they let me go. They finally let me go.
Speaker 1: Was it an hour or three hours? How long did
Speaker 1: that whole process take? I think about an hour and
Speaker 1: a half. And everybody was there waiting for you when
Speaker 1: you when you came out and walked down the steps
Speaker 1: like in the movie or something like that, And that
Speaker 1: was the true exciting moment. Beautiful was a beautiful day,
Speaker 1: son was out and everything and a nice little breeze blowing.
Speaker 1: I would remember that. I mean it was beautiful, all
Speaker 1: of us out there waiting on men standing and welcome me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's you remember, you think I remember just
Speaker 1: when the joy say, you know, reverts free and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. But to actually step out into society, into
Speaker 1: the free world and breathe again and not worry about
Speaker 1: all that prevent life. Where did you go? I went
Speaker 1: to an innocent project off over the land, get their
Speaker 1: in view, you know, say hello, thanks everyone there more
Speaker 1: or less, then tell around and when UH got me
Speaker 1: something to eat? Actually we got me some seafood, actually
Speaker 1: said there and enjoying it? Did we eat some friedbrry
Speaker 1: that night? Yeah? And the uh wife that COLI on
Speaker 1: that late that night, my son wife make a frieberry
Speaker 1: that my mother UH told her to make that I
Speaker 1: grew up on eating, and uh she made me some
Speaker 1: fribrary and I always wanted to eat some home bib friberry.
Speaker 1: Oh so fried red Okay. And the seafood. I can't
Speaker 1: imagine how good that takes after thirty eight years of
Speaker 1: no seafood. Right, they're not giving you any seafood and
Speaker 1: their goal, no, sir, now like you would think, we
Speaker 1: it's really more like fish paddies. And if you actually
Speaker 1: get to ever see a shrimp and all, you know,
Speaker 1: like you probably say far in between. Yeah, I hear that.
Speaker 1: Do you have a memory from those almost four decades
Speaker 1: in prison? Was there a worst moment from all the
Speaker 1: time you were locked up? Yes, sir, actually witness and
Speaker 1: really experience a lot of not caring yuh like I
Speaker 1: see to be in a place where that's truly no
Speaker 1: emotions being showed. Everybody like smothering the actually the way
Speaker 1: they feel and walking around asked, you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: to be touched, I'm not to even be spoken to. Uh?
Speaker 1: Is it is? It kind of nerves setting troubling me,
Speaker 1: and you really want to get out of here, You
Speaker 1: want to find a way to get away from that.
Speaker 1: It's not a society as this society. It's a side
Speaker 1: of the way. It don't breathe criminal. It just takes
Speaker 1: the It strips you up your emotions, It makes you
Speaker 1: suppress your emotion and and then you replace with uh,
Speaker 1: I don't care. I mean it was probably a numbing
Speaker 1: routine of just one day after another, weeks bleeding into months,
Speaker 1: bleeding into years, bleeding into decades. But was there in
Speaker 1: that routine? Was there one day of the week that
Speaker 1: was better? Was there a day when there was any
Speaker 1: any differentiation where not necessary. Oh wait, just on a
Speaker 1: Friday that we realized once we get off that Friday,
Speaker 1: we really had the next two days to relax, too
Speaker 1: late for our self because you didn't have to work,
Speaker 1: that we didn't have to work. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: like became a lot. I was specialty. I was privileged
Speaker 1: that we actually went to work and worked the five
Speaker 1: days for the weekend for them two days to relax,
Speaker 1: just like being on the outside, with the difference being
Speaker 1: that in the goal, you're making somewhere between two cents
Speaker 1: and twenty one cents an hour, right, yes, sir, yeah,
Speaker 1: because we've heard about how they pay some people four
Speaker 1: cents and keep two cents as attacks. Um. So now
Speaker 1: you're here in New York, and you know, obviously we're
Speaker 1: super happy to have you here and and seeing the
Speaker 1: sights and and and running around like a movie star
Speaker 1: or something like that, right, going to shows and restaurants
Speaker 1: and whatnot. It must be just a surreal experience all
Speaker 1: the way around. Is if says it seemed like a dream,
Speaker 1: it does because everything I had explained that I would
Speaker 1: like to do and see, I'm actually have an opportunity
Speaker 1: to do it. I never actually had opportuned to leave Louisiana,
Speaker 1: and none of that I have been afforded. Is it's like,
Speaker 1: really that dream coming true. Even flying on the plane
Speaker 1: was my first experience ever in life. Well, that's gonna
Speaker 1: be a trip before we wrap up, and I want
Speaker 1: to give everybody a chance to say some last words,
Speaker 1: and I'll start with you, and I hope you'll talk
Speaker 1: a little bit more about the problem with cases in
Speaker 1: which I would just identification is the only evidence, and
Speaker 1: how people should approach that when they're called to be
Speaker 1: on a jury, and how they should interpret that, especially
Speaker 1: in a case like this where it's across racial identification. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: You know, we know so much more today about the
Speaker 1: problems with memory and eyewitness identification, and it is the
Speaker 1: leading cause of wrongful convictions in the DNA cases in
Speaker 1: Louisiana right now. Unfortunately, they have not adopted reforms that
Speaker 1: we know could lead to a reduction in mistaken eyewitness identifications.
Speaker 1: And so that's an effort of the Innocence Project and
Speaker 1: Innocence Project New Orleans to try to make sure that
Speaker 1: Louisiana adopts reforms that could reduce wrongful convictions based on misidentification,
Speaker 1: and just in general, you know, we should take a
Speaker 1: step back in the criminal justice system and say, you know,
Speaker 1: are we willing to send people to prison based on
Speaker 1: an eyewitness identification alone that has no corroboration? I mean,
Speaker 1: what do we do in those cases where the only
Speaker 1: piece of evidence is an eyewitness identification, a piece of
Speaker 1: evidence that we know is very unreliable. All so we
Speaker 1: need to enact reforms. When people are our juries, they should,
Speaker 1: you know, really understand that even though this type of
Speaker 1: evidence is convincing. You know, if you have an eyewitness
Speaker 1: who points the finger and says that's the person who
Speaker 1: raped me, they may believe it. They probably genuinely believe it,
Speaker 1: and they've come to believe it, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that it's right. And mistaken Eyewitness identification happens at alarming rates,
Speaker 1: and we have to look at the conditions under which
Speaker 1: the identification was made. We have to look at the
Speaker 1: process under which the identification was made and make sure
Speaker 1: that it wasn't suggestive. And we need to rethink about
Speaker 1: indigent defense in this country. I mean, Malcolm did hire
Speaker 1: a lawyer, but the lawyer he hired was based on
Speaker 1: very limited means I'm glad you brought up the thing
Speaker 1: about the indigent defense because you talk about a broken system.
Speaker 1: Last year in New Orleans, the public Defenders handled approximately
Speaker 1: twenty tho cases, so that, if you do the simple math,
Speaker 1: is about four hundred cases per person per lawyer, and
Speaker 1: courts are closed on the weekends, so that means they
Speaker 1: were processing. And I say processing because it's really more
Speaker 1: processing than representing one and a half clients per day.
Speaker 1: So when you really think about it, what kind of
Speaker 1: time did they have to spend? And in fact, the
Speaker 1: head of the Public Defenders Association down there, I forgot
Speaker 1: it's called actually refused to let his lawyers handle any
Speaker 1: felony cases until he gave him more lawyers because he said,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to just process people into prison. It's
Speaker 1: a very principled stand. I think they ended up giving
Speaker 1: him like eight or nine more lawyers. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a drop in the bucket, but at least it's a
Speaker 1: little bit better. But yeah, that's the system that we're in.
Speaker 1: And as long as we're in that system, there's going
Speaker 1: to be another Malcolm Alexander every day, every hour. You
Speaker 1: just don't have a shot. You don't have a shot.
Speaker 1: So before we get to the star of our show,
Speaker 1: for the closing thoughts, Malcolm Jr. You've been through so much.
Speaker 1: I would love to get any anything that you want
Speaker 1: to share with the audience about, you know, any thoughts
Speaker 1: you have it all. There's never give up on your family.
Speaker 1: You know, it'd be a it would be a rough
Speaker 1: role going through that and seeing someone you love that's
Speaker 1: incarcerated like that, knowing that they are innocent, and you
Speaker 1: have all kind of mixed emotions Like I said, you'd
Speaker 1: be mad, you'd be sad, and everything else and all above.
Speaker 1: But just stay prayed up and just keep hoping and
Speaker 1: wishing us something to break. And thanks to the Innocent Project.
Speaker 1: I thank them for everything they have done for myself,
Speaker 1: my dad and my family, putting him back in my
Speaker 1: life because I never thought this dare come. So it's
Speaker 1: just like unbelievable for me, for my grandmother, it's like
Speaker 1: waking up to be to talk to him. I ain't
Speaker 1: gotta be worried about waiting on the phone call and
Speaker 1: just just out. You know, I'm forty now and he
Speaker 1: went when I was two, But we still got a
Speaker 1: lot of time that we can you know, sharing him
Speaker 1: being if my son and so I'm just thankful that everybody,
Speaker 1: you know, most of my family still here that to
Speaker 1: enjoy him and uh, the rest of our life with him,
Speaker 1: you know, so definitely happen for that your grandson will
Speaker 1: get a chance to hear this. And is there anything
Speaker 1: specific you want to say either about him or to him. Well, actually,
Speaker 1: I've been out there life. I've been out their life
Speaker 1: a long time, and for that, I'd like to apologize
Speaker 1: not only to my son but also to my grandson.
Speaker 1: And I like to see that I'm really proud of
Speaker 1: my son for what he actually has done with his
Speaker 1: life and sending it over to my grandson. He's done
Speaker 1: well with my grandson, but I can't see no more
Speaker 1: to either one of them outside the fact that really
Speaker 1: I love him and being here with him, it's actually
Speaker 1: gonna give me opportunity to show just how much I
Speaker 1: really love him. And now out um the moment, we've
Speaker 1: all been waiting for it. And what else can you
Speaker 1: share with our audience? Well, he touched on something there is,
Speaker 1: like I said, and being there, you know, you never
Speaker 1: lose thought of your family, and especially important that your
Speaker 1: family never lose the thought of you. So you like
Speaker 1: setting a goal for yourself, and your goal is to
Speaker 1: return back to your loved ones. But most of us
Speaker 1: actually never like I said, I never felt I never
Speaker 1: realized how much they had affect them. You know. I
Speaker 1: guess I was so caught up in trying to get
Speaker 1: back to him, I never took the time out to
Speaker 1: think about how that affect them. And since I've been
Speaker 1: out and being like, man, y'all really missed me. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like you're really kept love from me. You know,
Speaker 1: it just wouldn't saying it or even with that deal
Speaker 1: of just doing little things like se didn't be money
Speaker 1: anything like that. It was like we need you, and
Speaker 1: I guess she just nice and doing let you is
Speaker 1: really low. I guess that says at all. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all I can say about that is again, thank you
Speaker 1: for being here. I wish you all the blessings that
Speaker 1: life has to offer. You know, I hope you lived
Speaker 1: to be a great grandfather and a great great grandfather
Speaker 1: and that everything goes your way. So thanks again for
Speaker 1: sharing your story, and to all of you, Malcolm Jr.
Speaker 1: And Vanessa, thanks again for being here and you've been
Speaker 1: listening to a truly extraordinary man and an amazing episode
Speaker 1: of Wrongful Conviction. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Don't
Speaker 1: forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor
Speaker 1: to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join
Speaker 1: me in supporting this very important cause and helping to
Speaker 1: prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.
Speaker 1: The music on the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one