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Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If

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Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.

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Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,

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Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have

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Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

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Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.

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Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

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Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then

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Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be

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Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the

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Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.

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Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something

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Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said,

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Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, but.

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Speaker 4: They can.

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Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 3: Jason Flamm. Today, I have a truly extraordinary guest, a

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Speaker 3: gentleman named Malcolm Alexander, who was released from prison three

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Speaker 3: weeks ago after serving almost thirty eight years for a

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Speaker 3: crime he did not commit.

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Speaker 5: Louisiana. Inmate is a freeman this afternoon, after he was

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Speaker 5: clear of a rape that happened back in nineteen seventy nine,

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Speaker 5: a state judge throughout a fifty eight year old and

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Speaker 5: Malcolm Alexander's conviction after defense attorneys argue that Alexander's trial

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Speaker 5: lawyer failed to point out the victim has been doubtful

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Speaker 5: when she identified him. Alexander spent thirty eight years at

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Speaker 5: Angola for the crime.

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Speaker 3: Malcolm, welcome to the show, thank you, And with him

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Speaker 3: today is his son, Malcolm Junior, who is forty years old.

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Speaker 3: He was two at the time that his father was

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Speaker 3: sent away. So Malcolm Junior, welcome to Ron for Conviction.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, and we have a return visit from one

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Speaker 3: of Malcolm's extraordinary lawyers at the Innocence Project, Vanessa Popkin,

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Speaker 3: who is the director of post conviction Litigation. Vanessa, welcome back,

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 6: Great to be here.

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Speaker 3: So, Malcolm, I want to go back to the beginning,

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Speaker 3: before this whole insane saga started. Let's go back to

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Speaker 3: where you grew up and how you grew up and

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Speaker 3: what your life was like as a child as a

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Speaker 3: young man.

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Speaker 7: Well, very simple, sir, played sports. I enjoyed biking, done

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Speaker 7: a lot of fishing.

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Speaker 3: What kind of sports I mean You're a pretty big guy,

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Speaker 3: look like you might to play some football.

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Speaker 7: Yes, sir, he played a lot of football. Came up

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Speaker 7: from junior high to high playing football, went to Jo

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Speaker 7: and Eric Worley Middle School, and I left from Worley

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Speaker 7: Middle School, went to West Jefferson High. Left from West

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Speaker 7: Jefferson High, went to Joe and Eric. And after that,

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Speaker 7: I guess, said, I just went into the working world.

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Speaker 3: What were you working at?

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Speaker 7: Well, I had separate jobs. It was like once I

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Speaker 7: worked for International Tank Terminal, I worked for a fleet company.

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Speaker 7: I worked for Golf Central Railroad.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of jobs for a guy who was

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Speaker 3: still just a teenager really at the time. Right, you

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Speaker 3: had your son, Malcolm, who's sitting here at Malcolm Junior

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Speaker 3: sitting here with you. Know you had him when you

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Speaker 3: were very young.

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Speaker 7: Yes, sir, I had him actually when I was still

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Speaker 7: in uh high school. And that's the kind of the

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Speaker 7: reason why I had all the job because I was

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Speaker 7: playing football plus working at the same time.

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Speaker 3: Right, So you had a very busy life. We had

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Speaker 3: a good life, yes, sir, And you got a great

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Speaker 3: son out of it, who's now a man, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Obviously grew up without his father and of course. Now

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Speaker 3: I got to just get this out. You have a grandson, Malcolm.

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Speaker 7: The third, Yes, sir, when he is twenty.

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Speaker 3: It's amazing. Your grandson is twenty, which is the same

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Speaker 3: age that you were.

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Speaker 7: When I got your calcerators when you were locked up.

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Speaker 3: It's unbelievable. I mean, that really gives a sense of

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Speaker 3: the timeline and going back when we were talking nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty like who is president? When you were locked up?

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Speaker 7: Ooh, I think we were doing could a time.

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Speaker 3: Jimmy Carter was the president. Wow, that does give a

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Speaker 3: sense of how long ago it really was. So how

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Speaker 3: did this happen? And let me turn to Vanessa for

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Speaker 3: a second. Can you take us through how this began

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Speaker 3: and why it was allowed to continue when there were

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Speaker 3: so many obvious signs that he wasn't the guy?

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Speaker 6: Sure.

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Speaker 8: In nineteen seventy nine, a woman was minding an antique

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Speaker 8: shop that she had just opened when a black man

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Speaker 8: that she had never seen before came into the store

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Speaker 8: and basically attacked her from behind at gunpoint. Took her

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Speaker 8: into a small bathroom in the back of the store,

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Speaker 8: where he sexually assaulted her twice and then fled.

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Speaker 3: And this was the rape of a brutal rape of

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Speaker 3: a white woman by a black mail in the Deep

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Speaker 3: South in nineteen seventy nine. And we'll get into the

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Speaker 3: fact that there was a cross racial identification or misidentification,

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Speaker 3: which we know is a huge problem because scientific study

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Speaker 3: after study have proven that our memories are totally fallible.

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Speaker 3: In this case, the identification was made four and a

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Speaker 3: half months after the crime, right, and good luck try

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Speaker 3: to remember what you were doing four and a half

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Speaker 3: months ago or any details of that. But then when

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Speaker 3: it's a cross racial identification, of course the odds of

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Speaker 3: a correct result go down dramatically. And this had all

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Speaker 3: of those factors, right, that's right.

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Speaker 8: The victim in this case was attacked in an antique

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Speaker 8: store that she had just opened. It was early in

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Speaker 8: the day, and a man came in with a gun.

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Speaker 8: Most of the attack happened from behind, and it was

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Speaker 8: at gunpoint. We know weapon focus is also a big

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Speaker 8: issue in misidentifications because when a crime happens with the weapon,

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Speaker 8: people tend to look at the weapon, not the person

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Speaker 8: who's holding the weapon, and really be focused on what's

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Speaker 8: happening there. So the assailant came into the store armed

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Speaker 8: and the victim was held at gunpoint throughout the entire attack,

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Speaker 8: and then the perpetrator fled, so she had a very

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Speaker 8: limited opportunity to see the person who did this, and

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Speaker 8: over four months went by with no identification made or

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Speaker 8: no suspect in the case. Unfortunately, in March of nineteen eighty,

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Speaker 8: Malcolm Alexander had a consensual relationship with a white woman

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Speaker 8: and it turned out that she was a sex worker

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Speaker 8: and wanted money from him, and when he didn't give

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Speaker 8: her the money, she made a false allegation of rape,

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Speaker 8: and the.

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Speaker 3: Charge was immediately smith. It was not pursued at all.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely the police found no cooperation, they didn't pursue it.

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Speaker 8: But the lead officer who responded to that case had

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Speaker 8: also been the lead officer on the nineteen seventy nine

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Speaker 8: rape in the antique store, and so when Malcolm Alexander

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Speaker 8: came in and told police exactly what happened and made

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Speaker 8: a statement, the officer said, hmm, and this is in

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Speaker 8: the reports. You know, there was something about him that

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Speaker 8: reminded him of the previous incident that by now had

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Speaker 8: been unsolved for you know, just about four months from

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Speaker 8: our take. The only thing that's similar between both incidents

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Speaker 8: is that the victim was white.

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Speaker 6: Otherwise they were completely different, and.

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Speaker 3: The perpetrator was black. Correct, Well, there was no perpetrator

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Speaker 3: in the ones. In both cases it was a sexual event,

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Speaker 3: what do you want to call it, between a black

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Speaker 3: male and a white woman. But other than that, there

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Speaker 3: is one was consensual, one was not. There's no similarity.

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Speaker 3: That was just a terrible coincidence that happened to put

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Speaker 3: Malcolm in the crosshairs of the right.

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Speaker 8: I guess coincidence or racism on the part of the

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Speaker 8: investigating officer both both and once he was put into

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Speaker 8: the photo ray, then the factors that you were discussing

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Speaker 8: before kick in, and you know, this is nineteen eighty

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Speaker 8: and the lead detective is administering the photo ray, which

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Speaker 8: we know today by best practices, is not how it

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Speaker 8: should be done. That should be a blind lineup where

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Speaker 8: the person conducting the array doesn't know who the suspect is,

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Speaker 8: so they can't intentionally or unintentionally convey cues to the

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Speaker 8: eyewitness as to who to pick. But the victim, she

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Speaker 8: picked him out tentatively and said she wanted to see

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Speaker 8: him again in person. So three days later they did

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Speaker 8: an in person lineup, and Malcolm was the only person

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Speaker 8: from the photo or ray who was repeated in the

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Speaker 8: in person lineup.

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Speaker 3: Right, which again is going to be a very suggestive protocol. Malcolm,

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Speaker 3: what was going on in your head? Because here you

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Speaker 3: are one day, you're working on several jobs, you're playing sports,

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Speaker 3: you're raising your family, and you get arrested. Did you

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Speaker 3: even know about this crime? Had you heard anything about it?

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Speaker 3: Was it talked about in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 7: No, sir. And actually when I was approached about it,

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Speaker 7: I volunteered to go to the lineup because I was

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Speaker 7: actually sitting in the parish waiting to get out on bill.

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Speaker 7: And when they approached me about this crime here, and

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Speaker 7: they asked me what i'd be willing to appear in

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Speaker 7: front of a lineup. I know I hadn't done anything,

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Speaker 7: you know, as far as in that case there, but

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Speaker 7: they talking about someone else, said that I may have

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Speaker 7: raped them, But all the time I know I hadn't

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Speaker 7: raped anyone in the beginning.

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Speaker 3: And then she picked you out of the lineup, That's

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Speaker 3: what I was told. Oh so you weren't even made

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Speaker 3: aware of it at that time, no, sir. So what

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Speaker 3: happens next?

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Speaker 4: All right.

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Speaker 7: I think it was the next day that came back

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Speaker 7: and booked me on something like this. Here. The attorney

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Speaker 7: that I had with me at the lineup, his name

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Speaker 7: was Ralph Burnett, and I wound up dismissing him. He

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Speaker 7: was another pee attorney who asked the question to me,

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Speaker 7: do I go around raping on white women? So I

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Speaker 7: had to dismiss him or called my parents and explain

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Speaker 7: to my parents what was happening. And I guess to

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Speaker 7: let him know that he would fied. And that's when

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Speaker 7: we went and got Joe Toash with the way, the

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Speaker 7: fact that Joe Tash and Robert Burnett was actually working

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Speaker 7: out the same office.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't even know that, no, sir, I mean

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Speaker 3: that sounds like an office from hell. Because this guy

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Speaker 3: Tosh was one of the most incompetent and even evil

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Speaker 3: characters that the American Bar Association has a level ever

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Speaker 3: allowed to become a lawyer. How he became a lawyer

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Speaker 3: in the first place is a mystery, but the fact

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Speaker 3: is that he was later disbarred for such egregious misconduct

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Speaker 3: or whatever you want to call it, malfeasance and competence.

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Speaker 3: And in your case, it actually bears read because it

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Speaker 3: defies the imagination to see what is possible in our

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Speaker 3: criminal justice system. And I'm going to read something here.

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Speaker 3: He repeatedly failed to appear in court, missing both the

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Speaker 3: arraignment and the sentencing. That alone is giving me the chills.

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Speaker 3: It's just shocking. I mean, how can a lawyer not

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Speaker 3: show up? It's just I mean, and there and there

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Speaker 3: you are probably wondering, where's my lawyer at right? Yes, sir, now,

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Speaker 3: as anybody would be. Okay, let's take a second here.

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Speaker 3: He also failed to file important and basic pleadings with

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Speaker 3: the court. He never challenged the circumstances of the identification,

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Speaker 3: which would be lawyering one oh one Vanessa. Absolutely the

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Speaker 3: list goes on. He did not prepare an opening statement,

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Speaker 3: failed to properly cross examine witnesses, sometimes asking no questions

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Speaker 3: at all, and gave just a four page closing argument

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Speaker 3: and then, as if to put an exclaim nation point

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Speaker 3: on this whole nightmare scenario of American jurisprudence. Despite explicitly

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Speaker 3: telling Malcolm and his family that he would appeal to

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Speaker 3: the decision, he never did so. This is hard, probably

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Speaker 3: for a lot of people to believe that in a

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Speaker 3: situation in which literally your life is in this guy's

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Speaker 3: hands if because you were facing and ultimately were given

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Speaker 3: a sentence of life at hard labor with no possibility

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Speaker 3: of parole. And this guy didn't even bother to do

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Speaker 3: things that any first year law student would have done.

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Speaker 3: And it's a terrible failure that nobody steps in, and

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Speaker 3: there's got to be someone who's going to go, wait,

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Speaker 3: this is not okay, and that should have happened in

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Speaker 3: your case. There should be some check and balance where

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Speaker 3: when an attorney fails so terribly it doesn't take years

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Speaker 3: and years and years and then wait for the guy

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Speaker 3: to get this barred after he screws over so many

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Speaker 3: other people too. I mean, God knows the trail of

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Speaker 3: destruction and misery that he left. How many more Malcolm

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Speaker 3: Alexander's are out there that had the terrible misfortune and

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Speaker 3: not only be wrongfully accused and arrested for something and charged,

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Speaker 3: but then to be represented misrepresented by this small evil man.

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Speaker 3: This is America. This shouldn't happen. So how long did

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Speaker 3: you have to wait for your trial to start?

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Speaker 7: Think about three months? Because it was a time that

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Speaker 7: I actually went to Jackson Mississippi for the criminal in

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Speaker 7: saying for a little while, trying to buy time to

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Speaker 7: get a lawyer to investigate the case, because at some

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Speaker 7: point in there he was explaining to me about the

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Speaker 7: date that the crime happened on, and then by the

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Speaker 7: time I made it back then he were telling me

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Speaker 7: about it happened on another date and at the time

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Speaker 7: I was working, so we was trying to establish me

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Speaker 7: an alibi, my family and us to get with my

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Speaker 7: boss to show the lawyer because he really wouldn't do

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Speaker 7: and know what we call laid work, and the information

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Speaker 7: he was kind of like giving us about the case

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Speaker 7: wasn't really never measuring up because we discovered that after

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Speaker 7: him constantly saying the date was offed. So we just

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Speaker 7: couldn't necessarily afford to go and get another lawyer just

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Speaker 7: like that, and I had made a decision about had

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Speaker 7: actually having my own paid attorney, So just one thing

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Speaker 7: led to another, and I just wound up sticking with

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Speaker 7: him and my boss who I was working for doing

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Speaker 7: contract work with, like what's going on? His question asked

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Speaker 7: he was the lawyer actually saying the date that it

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Speaker 7: happened on that the Pacific date because he had wanted

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Speaker 7: to come to cold and testify that much. We did

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Speaker 7: run by the lawyer, but there was something that he

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Speaker 7: just never follow up on.

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Speaker 3: So your boss, who would have been probably a very

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Speaker 3: believable witness as somebody who was a successful businessman employing

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Speaker 3: people like yourself, I never got the chance to get

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Speaker 3: understand and tell people where you really were that day exactly.

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Speaker 3: And were you aware at this time that this lawyer

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Speaker 3: was really selling you down the river?

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Speaker 7: No, sir, not really, because I went into the system

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Speaker 7: trusting it, not believing that you know, they actually can

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Speaker 7: find me guilty or he got allow me to be

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Speaker 7: found guilty or something I didn't do. And I considered,

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Speaker 7: once all the facts is actually known about the case,

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Speaker 7: you know, it would prove that I didn't do it.

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Speaker 3: That seems to be common thread, right. You believe from

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Speaker 3: the beginning that the system would work for you because

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Speaker 3: you knew that you weren't there, You weren't the guy,

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Speaker 3: and in fact, he didn't even match the description as

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Speaker 3: it turns out exactly. But it felt that every step

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Speaker 3: of the way, and there were so many things that

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Speaker 3: just one thing could have gone right and would have

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Speaker 3: changed the whole outcome of this thing, but instead everything

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Speaker 3: went wrong. So the day of the trial comes and

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Speaker 3: you're still believing that a jury is going to hear

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Speaker 3: the facts and they're going to recognize that there's a big,

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Speaker 3: big mistake. Then you're going to go home to your family, Yes, sir,

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Speaker 3: So what was that day? Like?

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Speaker 7: Well, I'm sitting there, me and my family and a

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Speaker 7: lawyer and let's see, I'm listening to him call witness

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Speaker 7: who testifying as to well this investigating this way we

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Speaker 7: was calling here, calling it and then getting like a

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Speaker 7: narraror of the events that it was taking place and

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Speaker 7: surround the crime, whereas going to the sea collecting evid dance.

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Speaker 7: And then we got over to the doctor where they

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Speaker 7: brought her to the hospital. Then we went to the

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Speaker 7: doctor who examined her, and he gave his findings and

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Speaker 7: stuff like this hell and somewhere in there he's more

301
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Speaker 7: or less repeating thanks what she said, more than actually

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Speaker 7: gave his expert analysis of the test results and stuff

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Speaker 7: like that. But I'm listening to all this show, but

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Speaker 7: nothing actually is pointing the thing at me. Till we

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Speaker 7: got to the shour final stage when we went to

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Speaker 7: talking about identification. So I'm saying, well, this the only

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Speaker 7: thing they're talking about is identification that actually connected me

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Speaker 7: with this. We had no other witness, no nothing, I mean,

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Speaker 7: no fingerprints, no blood tests, nothing but identification. So I'm saying,

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Speaker 7: all right, let's see.

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Speaker 3: And the less of the fact that the only evidence

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Speaker 3: against him was I w this identification months and months

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Speaker 3: after the fact. Had you been representing him, what would

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Speaker 3: you have done, well, I.

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Speaker 8: Would have challenged the idea. I mean, there was a

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Speaker 8: lot that the lawyer could have done based on the

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Speaker 8: actual facts of the case. The fact that the victim

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Speaker 8: did not have a good opportunity to view the assailant,

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Speaker 8: that the attack happened from behind, that the assailant had

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Speaker 8: a gun to the victim's head throughout most of the attack,

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Speaker 8: and like Malcolm said, there was just a very vague

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Speaker 8: description of the assailant, you know, just basically general height,

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Speaker 8: general appearance, race, but you know, nothing specific. And the

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Speaker 8: victim's identification came over four months after the crime happened.

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Speaker 8: In these suggests of of identification procedures where he was

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Speaker 8: repeatedly shown to the victim, And what's most important is

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Speaker 8: that the second time the victim was shown Malcolm was

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Speaker 8: in this live lineup, and even that second time through

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Speaker 8: that suggestive procedure, she was not positive that he was

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Speaker 8: the assailant. Her identification was documented as pow and tentative,

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Speaker 8: and that was the lineup report that was prepared by

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Speaker 8: the officer who conducted the identification procedure.

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Speaker 3: What happened to the guilty beyond all reasonable doubt thing, Well.

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Speaker 6: That is just not what happened here.

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Speaker 8: I mean, it's just it's so enraging, as you said,

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Speaker 8: to listen to this story and to kind of relive

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Speaker 8: it again with Malcolm, because here he is twenty years old.

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Speaker 8: His life is at stake, right, He's gonna be sentenced

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Speaker 8: to life with no possibility parole, which is the mandatory

340
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Speaker 8: sentence in Louisiana for aggravated rape, which just means any

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Speaker 8: type of rape with force. And so he's on trial

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Speaker 8: for his life and his lawyer's not doing anything. I mean,

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Speaker 8: imagine your first lawyer says to you, do you like

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Speaker 8: raping white woman? It's like, who that's your defender, that's

345
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Speaker 8: supposed to be your advocate against the government coming after

346
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Speaker 8: you with all of the resources that it has to

347
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Speaker 8: prosecute you for this crime, and then he goes to

348
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Speaker 8: trial and his trial lasts one day. In one day,

349
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Speaker 8: they pick a jury, have opening statements, present all of

350
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Speaker 8: the evidence, I mean not opening statements by Malcolm's lawyer,

351
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Speaker 8: but the state. They present all of the state's case.

352
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Speaker 8: The defense doesn't call a single witness. The jury deliberates

353
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Speaker 8: and returns a verdict. You know, by six pm. It's insane.

354
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Speaker 6: How was that justice?

355
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Speaker 3: Yeah, one day You're really right to put that in

356
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Speaker 3: very stark, you know light, because one day that's what

357
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Speaker 3: Malcolm's life was worth to pretty much everybody in that courtroom, right,

358
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Speaker 3: even his defender. He didn't want to be bothered. Obviously,

359
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 3: he didn't show up, He didn't do any research, he

360
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 3: didn't call any witnesses, he didn't do anything that he

361
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 3: was supposed to do. And I know, I keep harping

362
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 3: on that because it's madness. And then, like you said,

363
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Speaker 3: one day and everybody go home and go get something

364
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 3: eat and watch the news and go to sleep or

365
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Speaker 3: whatever they do, right, and he goes off to prison

366
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Speaker 3: for the rest of his life. And it takes thirty

367
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Speaker 3: eight years to unravel this disaster and to bring him

368
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Speaker 3: back home to where he belongs. I want to get

369
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Speaker 3: to you in a minute, Malcolm Junior, because I mean

370
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Speaker 3: you were you were just a baby at the time.

371
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 3: Were you were even aware of any of this stuff? No,

372
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Speaker 3: because you were between two and three while this was

373
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Speaker 3: taking place. Right, Who took care of you during this time?

374
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Speaker 9: Between my mom and grandmother and grandfather and my mom mom,

375
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Speaker 9: So all my grandmothers, my mom my ain'ties.

376
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Speaker 4: They all stepped up.

377
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Speaker 3: And how difficult was it for you? I mean was

378
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Speaker 3: there a stigma attached to it? Did other kids have

379
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 3: an idea that your dad was in prison? And what

380
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,959
Speaker 3: did that mean? And how difficult was it?

381
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Speaker 9: Well, none of the kids knew. I didn't even know

382
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Speaker 9: in the beginning. But as I got older, that's when

383
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 9: I became aware of. You know, when we'll go see

384
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Speaker 9: him When I'm young, I'm wondering why he can't come

385
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Speaker 9: with me, you know.

386
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Speaker 3: When you would go visit him in Gola.

387
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 4: Yes, when I go visit him in Goolo.

388
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Speaker 9: So, like I said, going there from two years old,

389
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Speaker 9: growing up going there, and as I got old, I'm like,

390
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 9: he's asked my grandma, like Ma, why my daddy can't come?

391
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Speaker 4: You know? So she'll be like he come in, he

392
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 4: just can't come right now.

393
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Speaker 9: So then as I got older, it's like, oh, this

394
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 9: is jail, Like my dad in jail. So because then

395
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 9: nobody actually fully told, like sat down and told me,

396
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 9: your dad is in jail, so I just had to

397
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 9: as I got older, figured out on my own and

398
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 9: and then it's like what my dad in jail for?

399
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 9: You know, So I'm getting bits and pieces. And then

400
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 9: as I got older, I understood they talked to him

401
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 9: like like my uncles and my aunts and everybody, like

402
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 9: everybody in the neighborhood like, man, your dad ain't do that,

403
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 9: you know. Once I got up in age and they're

404
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 9: talking about the case, like your dad will never do

405
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 9: nothing like that. All they have to do is race

406
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 9: calls and play football and things like that. So I

407
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 9: never felt any you know, far as not believing that

408
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 9: he didn't do it, because everybody that ever knew him

409
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 9: always had something positive to sell bottom and that.

410
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 4: You know, they wronged him, and you know, things like that.

411
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 3: So you don't seem well, both of you, neither one

412
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 3: of you seemed angry. I mean, did at any point

413
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 3: did you become angry at the system because you knew

414
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 3: that your dad was in this. And we've seen different cases,

415
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 3: we've interviewing people on the show where their children actually

416
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 3: thought they were guilty because they were told that the

417
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 3: father was guilty or their mother. But how did you

418
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: process that? I don't know. I feel like I would

419
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 3: have been very angry.

420
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Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, I was mad growing up with your dad

421
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 9: not there and he missing your life and you get

422
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 9: to them folks in a row. You be neat your

423
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 9: dad in the house and that father figure. So he

424
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 9: always was in my life talking to me over the phone,

425
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 9: but that's not him in the presence of being there

426
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 9: to be able to put his foot down in things

427
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 9: that when I'm getting out the way with my mom

428
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Speaker 9: or doing things I shouldn't be doing.

429
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 4: You definitely need your dad there. So, yeah, I was mad.

430
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: Let's go back to the trial day. There's this one

431
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 3: day trial and now it's getting to be late afternoon,

432
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 3: early evening. Jury goes out. They deliberated I think for

433
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 3: less than an hour, right, yeah, less than an hour. Yeah,

434
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 3: they come back. Did you believe at this point, having

435
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 3: now seen the whole day's proceedings, and you get a

436
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 3: sense when you're in that room, you sort of make

437
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 3: some eye contact with the jurors and whatnot, right, what

438
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 3: was going through your mind? And what was that moment like.

439
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 7: When they came back into the coat room. The honest

440
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 7: it is like a toss up because the lawyer really

441
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 7: didn't say much in my defense. I'm trying to give

442
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 7: you an idea of how it worth for me. Really,

443
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 7: I can say it back then as opposed to how

444
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 7: I see it now. It makes me, you know, because

445
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 7: I really realized, you know, a lot, that he didn't

446
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 7: do it all right. But it was like, is this

447
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 7: really happened? To be honest with you, I couldn't really

448
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 7: believe that it actually was taking place. They actually couldn't

449
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 7: believe that we had got this fall with it.

450
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: Right, because you should have never even been on trial

451
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 3: in the first place. We know that now, yes, sure, well,

452
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: I don't want to minimize the idea of three months

453
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 3: in jail waiting your trial. But had it resolved at

454
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 3: that point, you could have gone on with your life

455
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 3: and piece things back together, maybe gotten your job back

456
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: and gone back to raising your family, et cetera. But

457
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 3: then there was that moment when they announced their verdict.

458
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 4: It was shocking.

459
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 7: It was hurting because I remember my mother busting out crying,

460
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 7: my sister started crying, and my daddy just had that

461
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 7: look on his face. Yeah, I can't even remember even

462
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 7: if the lawyer said everything gonna be all right or

463
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 7: not and all, I can't even remember that because really

464
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 7: was paying attention more to my family then, because, like

465
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 7: you see, thinking now, I realized when I got found guilty,

466
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 7: they got found guilty, it just was more than just me.

467
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 7: They was finally guilty. And once I actually stepped out

468
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 7: there present, that's when I started crying. That's when they

469
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 7: really sit in and affect me. I try to remain

470
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 7: strong for them at that time.

471
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 3: And then not too long after that, I guess you

472
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 3: were taking off to what is one of the worst

473
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: prisons anywhere in the world, really in Gola, and it's

474
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 3: really a sleigh plantation. And in fact, from what I understand,

475
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: you were actually made to pick cotton in the beginning, right,

476
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,719
Speaker 3: which is an image that is just mind blowing.

477
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 7: Yes, sir, Yes, when I got there, we're still picking cotton,

478
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 7: we're still picking ochres, we are still picking corn, very

479
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 7: the vegetable and didn't have a tool what they call

480
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 7: a hole. Actually it was a tree branch with a

481
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 7: piece of mellow on the end that we was using

482
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 7: to straight the roads with.

483
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: A tree branch with a piece of metal on the

484
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 3: en de scrape the roads. Yes, sir, so it's pretty

485
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 3: much like a chain gang.

486
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 7: More or less. And only think about it. We didn't

487
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 7: actually have the change us. We had the gut and

488
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 7: goss and everything, and a certain perimeter we had to

489
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 7: stay within.

490
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: Here, you are an innocent man, take it away from

491
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 3: your family and your life and everything else, put into

492
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 3: this basically hell on earth. How did you manage to persevere?

493
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 3: What kind of strength does it take to deal with

494
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 3: almost four decades in that environment knowing the whole time

495
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: that you're innocent.

496
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 7: Well, most people when they go into the institution that

497
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 7: discover they try to adjust to the institution. But it

498
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:04,719
Speaker 7: got pocketed inside the institution that is educational and positive

499
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 7: and by me actually off the way has work. When

500
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 7: I was in the free world and going into that

501
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 7: type of environment field work and stuff like that, it

502
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 7: was kind of like readjusting. And I know it always

503
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 7: was a place that I didn't want to be, that

504
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 7: I shouldn't have been in the first place. So it

505
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 7: was a question is what can I do? How can

506
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 7: I maintain that actually it will help me to get

507
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 7: out of here. And like I always tell people getting mad,

508
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 7: they're gonna solve the problem. I was somewhat angry in

509
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 7: the beginning because I know I wouldn't be here it's common,

510
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 7: but that didn't solve my problem. So during my appeal

511
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 7: stage and once it was over with and went into

512
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 7: my post conviction, we had this lawyer who actually suggested,

513
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 7: because we had to go in and hire and another

514
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 7: lawyer to do the thing, we actually had this other

515
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 7: lawyer who suggested to me my parents that I could

516
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 7: file my own post conviction. So from that and when

517
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 7: my parents mentioned that to me and said that, the

518
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 7: lawyer said, well, you could take time out by you

519
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 7: being that and learning the law and do your own

520
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 7: post conviction and stuff like that. And I didn't even

521
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 7: get mad about that because it's the truth, you know,

522
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 7: that's started me, That's started me into pursuing my freedom

523
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 7: on my own.

524
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: And how did you find out about the Innocence Project?

525
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 7: Right, one of the prison magazines that I had received

526
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 7: had the Innocent Project address and information and on it.

527
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 3: So you just sent off a letter and then and

528
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 3: then how did you find out? Did you get a

529
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: letter back saying we're going to take your case?

530
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 7: Yes, I did. I did receive it, and it actually

531
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 7: brightened me, to be honest with you, because I have

532
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 7: tried hard to contact other organizations and trying to get

533
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 7: them interested in my case.

534
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 3: And Malcolm Junior, how where were you during this time

535
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 3: of this stuff? Did he call you and say, hey,

536
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 3: guess what, I got some great news? Or you must

537
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: have been trying everything you could do as well to

538
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: help him because you knew he was innocent. He's your dad,

539
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 3: and I could see you love him so well.

540
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, I had got a couple of lawyers myself once

541
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 9: I got up in age and went to making money.

542
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 4: Ain't nothing he called for.

543
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 9: I didn't try, you know, we was trying to investigators,

544
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 9: trying this. Go talk to this one, you know what

545
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 9: I mean, putting my money up, me and my grandmother,

546
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 9: go and get this lawyer, that lawyer. So it's whatever

547
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 9: he needed. I was there and was willing to do

548
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 9: whatever it takes to try. But when he called and said,

549
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 9: hey man, they found some evidence. Because he had been

550
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 9: writing down there to Jefferson Parish for years and years

551
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 9: and years with no evidence. When he called and said

552
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 9: and they say they found some evidence, and we were like, oh, yeah,

553
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 9: you know, we were just very excited about that. And

554
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 9: then also when he said that the Innocent Project's going

555
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 9: to take the case again, he said, man, were good,

556
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 9: We're straight.

557
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 4: I'm a bea there. And this was just in the beginning.

558
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 9: We were just so happy about that, you know, just

559
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 9: I was very happy and please.

560
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, Vanessa, back to you. So originally, when the in

561
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 3: this project got involved, the evidence was nowhere to be found, right, So.

562
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 8: You know, Malcolm really reached out in the early days

563
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 8: of our history. And in nineteen ninety six we started

564
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 8: working on his case and a law student reached out

565
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 8: to the court clerk's office that was supposed to have

566
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 8: all the trial exhibits, and I think it was in

567
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 8: an earlier day of honesty, got a letter back saying

568
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 8: we inadvertently destroyed all of the evidence.

569
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 6: We shouldn't have. It was a mistake.

570
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 8: Today they probably would have just said, yeah, has lost

571
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 8: we can't find it, but they actually copped to the

572
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 8: fact that they had destroyed it.

573
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 6: Just a couple of years after his.

574
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 8: Trial, you know, while he was still on post conviction,

575
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 8: So there was seeman evidence that had been left that

576
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 8: we could have tested, but it had been destroyed. And

577
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 8: so we because we were just focused at the time

578
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 8: on DNA cases, we closed out Malcolm's case. But he

579
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 8: didn't give up, you know, he kept on filing motions.

580
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 8: He kept on, as Malcolm Junior said, reaching out to

581
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 8: the officials in Jefferson Parish. And so his persistence paid

582
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 8: off in twenty thirteen when they responded to him and said, actually,

583
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 8: even though all of that evidence that the courthouse had

584
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 8: been destroyed, there was some hairs that had been collected

585
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 8: from where the victim was raped, and those had been

586
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 8: kept at the lab.

587
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 6: So they found this envelope that would turn out to

588
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 6: be the key to his freedom.

589
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: Are there rules for the safe guarding and the storing

590
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 3: safe storing of evidence from cases around the country.

591
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 8: So, unfortunately, there are no uniform rules. Some states have

592
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 8: preservation laws that require evidence to be held onto but

593
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 8: in some states it's perfectly fine to destroy evidence after

594
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 8: a direct appeal.

595
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 6: So that's something that has to be changed.

596
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 8: I mean, how can we have somebody in prison and

597
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 8: destroy evidence that could one day.

598
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 6: You know, show that we got it wrong.

599
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: We know that.

600
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 8: Technology constantly evolves, so there's just no reason to be

601
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 8: destroying biological evidence that could cut to the truth.

602
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 6: In a case, it could.

603
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 3: Not only prove that the person that's in there is

604
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 3: a Roman, but could also show who the right one

605
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: is and then do society a big favor by getting

606
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: that predator off the streets. So back to you, So

607
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 3: now here it is again, like I said, I mean,

608
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 3: what a roller coaster ride, because after sixteen long years,

609
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 3: you get the golden ticket, so to speak. Right, the

610
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 3: innocent spot is taking your case. Then you get the

611
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: huge disappointment finding out that the evidence, which is what

612
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: you need in order to be able to prove what

613
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 3: you know, is gone. That would be the time when

614
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 3: it would have been convenient for you to just say,

615
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: you know what, I give up. I can't. I mean,

616
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: who can. The highs and lows are insane. But seventeen

617
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 3: more years you persisted until one day twenty and thirteen,

618
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 3: after thirty three years, and even that's five years ago

619
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 3: now because we're in twenty eighteen. Obviously it's remarkable. I

620
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 3: mean it says a lot about you. I don't know

621
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 3: who could do that. You're doing this hard time and

622
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 3: the best way that you possibly can right, yes, doing

623
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 3: positive things, staying close with your family, fighting to prove

624
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 3: your innocence. And then three weeks ago on January thirtieth,

625
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, almost thirty eight years a lifetime. Okay, yeah,

626
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 3: let's just process that. What was that day? Like?

627
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 7: No, so I actually was in the coat room when

628
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 7: I found out, and really I was fighting back to tales.

629
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 7: It almost went you. I got them staying I went

630
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 7: you a life a denial And when I say, like

631
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 7: Eric Corner, that I would turn no matter whether I

632
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 7: was writing or even wrong, I just was say right

633
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 7: because I knew I was writing on the right trio.

634
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 7: I was always constantly being told that you know it's wrong,

635
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 7: it's not going to happen. You know, we deny you,

636
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 7: we deny you, we deny you, and be honest with you.

637
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 7: My true freedom date the date that I knew that

638
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 7: I truly was going to get out, when Miss Vanessa

639
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 7: actually believed in me being innocent, and she always told

640
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 7: me then that she'll be with me to the end.

641
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 7: And if I told the people such as it just

642
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 7: it's remarkable, irreplaceable. That's when I believe that I was

643
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 7: gonna get out.

644
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 3: That's when you believed, and that's a very powerful statement.

645
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 3: But then you went to court and this is the opposite.

646
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 3: Now right now, we're thirty eight years later. Family's there, Yes,

647
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 3: Sir Malcolm Junior. Were you there that day? Yes, and

648
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,439
Speaker 3: you were there, Vanessa right.

649
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 8: It was actually an incredibly stressful day because we had

650
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 8: done DNA testing in Malcolm's case, and as of July

651
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 8: twenty seventeen, we had some indications from the prosecutor's office

652
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 8: that they were recognizing that this was an erroneous conviction

653
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 8: and would potentially be moving with us to vacate the conviction.

654
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 8: But it was seven excruciating months of getting to that point,

655
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 8: and even as of the morning of January thirtieth, we

656
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 8: were not certain that they were going to vacate the conviction.

657
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 8: So when Malcolm says he learned that he was being

658
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 8: exonerated in court, he really did, because we didn't know

659
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 8: as of that morning what was going to happen. And

660
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 8: it was incredible pressure because Malcolm was in court, he

661
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 8: had been waiting on the quote unquote one yard line

662
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 8: for seven months. His entire family was there, and we

663
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 8: didn't know whether they were going to agree or ask

664
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 8: for more time.

665
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 3: Okay, so now back to you. Welcome. Okay, so you're there, Vanessa,

666
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 3: stretch and out. I know the family's got to be

667
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 3: on ten right stress level. And you're there. You've seen

668
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 3: everything now, yes, sir, So what happened? How did it

669
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: come down?

670
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 7: Oh? How you will say waking up from a coma?

671
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 7: I mean it was like it happy to be alive.

672
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 7: I mean everything that I actually ever went through preparing

673
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 7: myself for this one day, it was all worth it.

674
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 7: I mean, keeping clear, not getting there any trouble, learn

675
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 7: as much as I can learn, I mean, just preparing

676
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 7: myself to one day actually returning to society. When she

677
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 7: finally said that see I touched it my immediate release, Yeah,

678
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 7: it was like, did you mean, like did she really

679
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 7: say immediate rely? Because I'm thinking him I had to

680
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 7: go back to ant Gorla. I thought you were going

681
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 7: to send me back to ant Gorla.

682
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: But uh so those were the words the judge said.

683
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 3: There was some arguments back and forth whatever, and then

684
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 3: the judge said, what I mean.

685
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 8: It's unfortunately not what you would want it to be

686
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 8: in every way because you want the state to say

687
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 8: on the record, We're sorry you want the judge to

688
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 8: publicly acknowledge all that has been robbed from Malcolm and

689
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 8: his family who were there in court. And while everyone

690
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 8: was cordial and the conviction was vacated, it certainly it

691
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 8: wasn't what he was owed at that moment, but he

692
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 8: was getting out and so there was a big sense

693
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 8: of joy, and his mom was in the courtroom and

694
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 8: probably twenty or thirty family members at least.

695
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 3: Wow, that must have been a raucous And what did

696
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 3: you do? Did you turn around and did you jump

697
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 3: for joyed?

698
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 7: I stayed pretty comb I stayed pretty cone I do.

699
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 7: How can I explain it? It's just the institution of life.

700
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 7: It prepares you for moments like that. It's kind of

701
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 7: like it don't take your spirit, but it makes you

702
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 7: live a harder life.

703
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 3: Not your emotions so much. Yes, sir, well, let me

704
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 3: get the family perspective from Malcolm Junior. Because you're sitting

705
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 3: there in the courtroom with the twenty or thirty family

706
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 3: members how many it is, but it's your dad. There's

707
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 3: nobody closer to Malcolm in the courtroom than you because

708
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 3: yours blood. So what was your reaction and what was

709
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: the family's reaction. I mean, did you even believe it?

710
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 9: I tell you what, we jump for joy. You know,

711
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 9: we were very excited and we was, like she said,

712
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 9: it was a she. We were sitting there just waiting

713
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 9: and waiting and we didn't know if it was going

714
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 9: to happen that day.

715
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 4: But when it did, yeah.

716
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 9: We we just jumped and clapped and laughed and cried

717
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 9: with every you know, just surreal. I just couldn't believe

718
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 9: that they had came. So yeah, we was excited, very excited.

719
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 3: And then did you just walk right out into the daylight?

720
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 3: And where did you go?

721
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 7: Went down to booking. I had to have a change

722
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 7: of clothes and everything, and they had to like process

723
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 7: me out and from that, yeah, I had to sign

724
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 7: some release paper and then they let me go. They

725
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 7: finally let me go.

726
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 3: Was it an hour or three hours? How long did

727
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: that whole process take?

728
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 7: I think about an hour and a half.

729
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 3: And everybody was there waiting for you when you came

730
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 3: out and walked down the steps like in the movie

731
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 3: or something like.

732
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 7: That, And that was the true exciting moment. Beautiful. It

733
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 7: was a beautiful day, sun was out and everything. I

734
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 7: had a nice little breeze blowing. I would remember that.

735
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 7: I mean it was beautiful. All of them was out

736
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 7: there waiting on me, standing and welcome me. I mean

737
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 7: that's you remember. You'll think. I remember just when the

738
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 7: judge said, you know, reverse free and stuff like that.

739
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 7: But to actually step out into society, into the free

740
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 7: world and breathe again and not worry about all that

741
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 7: prisent life.

742
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 3: Where did you go?

743
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 7: I went to the Innocent Project, off a little indwl

744
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 7: and give her an interview, you know, said hello, thanks

745
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 7: to everyone there more or less. Then turn around and

746
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 7: when got me something to eat? I actually, when got

747
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 7: me some seafood? Actually said there and enjoyed it. Did

748
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 7: we use some fried bread, didn't I?

749
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 3: Yeah?

750
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 4: He did. Some of the wife had cook some that

751
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 4: late that night.

752
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 7: My son's wife make a fried bread that my mother

753
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 7: told her to me that I grew up on eating.

754
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 7: And uh, she made me some fried breed and I

755
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 7: always wanted to eat me some homemade fried bread.

756
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,439
Speaker 3: Oh, some fride red okay. And the seafood. I can't

757
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 3: imagine how good that takes after thirty eight years of

758
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 3: no seafood. Right, they don't give you any seafood and

759
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 3: ain't gold.

760
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 7: Are they, No, sir, not like you would think. It

761
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 7: was really more like fish paddies and if you actually

762
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 7: get to ever see a shrimp and all, you know,

763
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 7: like the probably say falling between Yeah, I hear that.

764
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 3: Do you have a memory from those almost four decades

765
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: in prison? Was there a worst moment from all the

766
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 3: time you were locked up?

767
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 7: Yes, sir, actually witness and really experience a lot of

768
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 7: not caring like I see to be in a place

769
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 7: where that's truly no emotions being showed. Everybody likes smothering

770
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 7: the actually the way they feel and walking around as

771
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 7: you know, I'm not to be touched, I'm not to

772
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 7: even be spoken to. Is it's a kind of nerve

773
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 7: setting troubling me and you really want to get out

774
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 7: of here. You want to find a way to get

775
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 7: away from that. It's not a society as this society.

776
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 7: It's a society where it don't breathe criminal It just

777
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 7: takes the It strips you up your emotions, It makes

778
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 7: you suppress your emotion and then you replacement.

779
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 4: I don't care.

780
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: I mean it was probably a numbing routine of just

781
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 3: one day after another week's bleeding into months bleeding into years,

782
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 3: bleeding into decades. But was there in that routine? Was

783
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 3: there one day of the week that was better? Was

784
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: there a day when there was any any differentiation?

785
00:43:58,800 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 4: Well, not necessary.

786
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 7: Oh wait, just on a Friday that we realized once

787
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 7: we get off that Friday, we really had the next

788
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 7: two days to relax, two dates.

789
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 3: For ourself because you didn't have to work, that.

790
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 7: We didn't have to work, And that's kind of like

791
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 7: became a lot. Hour was special day. I was privileged

792
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 7: day that we actually went to work and worked the

793
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 7: five days for the weekend for them, two days to relax, just.

794
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 3: Like being on the outside, with the difference being that

795
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 3: in an goal, you're making somewhere between two cents and

796
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 3: twenty one cents an hour, right, yes, sir, Yeah, because

797
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 3: we've heard about how they pay some people four cents

798
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 3: and keep two cents as attacks. So now you're here

799
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 3: in New York and you know, obviously we're super happy

800
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 3: to have you here and seeing the sights and running

801
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 3: around like a movie star or something like that, right,

802
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 3: going to shows and restaurants and whatnot. It must be

803
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 3: just a surreal experience all the way around. Does it

804
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 3: seem like a dream.

805
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 7: It does because everything I had explained that I would

806
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 7: like to do and see I'm actually having an opportunity

807
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 7: to do it. I never actually had opportunity to week now,

808
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 7: and none that I have been afforded. It's just like

809
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 7: really a dream coming true. Even flying on the plane

810
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 7: was my first experience every in life.

811
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 3: Well, that's going to be a trip before we wrap up,

812
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 3: and I want to give everybody a chance to say

813
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 3: some last words, and I'll start with you and Essa.

814
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 3: I hope you'll talk a little bit more about the

815
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 3: problem with cases in which I would identification is the

816
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 3: only evidence, and how people should approach that when they're

817
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 3: called to be on a jury, and how they should

818
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 3: interpret that, especially in a case like this where it's

819
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 3: across racial identification.

820
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 6: Absolutely.

821
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 8: You know, we know so much more today about the

822
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 8: problems with memory and eyewitness identification, and it is the

823
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 8: leading cause of wrongful convictions in the DNA cases in

824
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 8: Louisiana right now. Unfortunately, they have not adopted reforms that

825
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 8: we know could lead to a reduction in mistaken eyewitness identifications.

826
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 8: And so that's an effort of the Innocence Project and

827
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 8: Innocence Project New Orleans to try to make sure that

828
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 8: Louisiana adopts reforms that could reduce wrongful convictions based on misidentification,

829
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 8: and just in general, you know, we should take a

830
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 8: step back in the criminal justice system and say, you know,

831
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 8: are we willing to send people to prison based on

832
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 8: an eyewitness identification alone that has no cooperation? I mean,

833
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 8: what do we do in those cases where the only

834
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 8: piece of evidence is an eyewitness identification, a piece of

835
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 8: evidence that we know is very unreliable.

836
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 6: So we need to enact reforms.

837
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 8: When people are our juries, they should, you know, really

838
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 8: understand that even though this type of evidence is convincing.

839
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 8: You know, if you have an eyewitness who points the

840
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 8: finger and says that's the person who raped me.

841
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 6: They may believe it.

842
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 8: They probably genuinely believe it, and they've come to believe it,

843
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 8: but that doesn't mean that it's right and mistaken. Eyewitness

844
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 8: identification happens at alarming rates, and we have to look

845
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 8: at the conditions under which the identification was made. We

846
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 8: have to look at the process under which the identification

847
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 8: was made and make sure that it wasn't suggestive. And

848
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 8: we need to rethink about indigen defense in this country.

849
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 8: I mean, Malcolm did hire a lawyer, but the lawyer

850
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 8: he hired was based on very limited means.

851
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 3: I'm glad you brought up the thing about the indigen

852
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 3: defense because you talk about a broken system. Last year

853
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 3: in New Orleans, the fifty two public defenders handled approximately

854
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: twenty thousand cases, so that, if you do the simple math,

855
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 3: is about four hundred cases per person per lawyer, and

856
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 3: courts are closed on the weekends, so that means they

857
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 3: were processing. And I'd say processing because there's really more

858
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 3: processing than representing one and a half clients per day.

859
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 3: So when you really think about it, what kind of

860
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 3: time did they have to spend? And in fact, the

861
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 3: head of the Public Defenders Association down there, I forgot

862
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 3: what it's called, actually refused to let his lawyers handle

863
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 3: any felony cases until he gave him more lawyers because

864
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 3: he's said, I'm not going to just process people into prison.

865
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: It's a very principled stand. I think they ended up

866
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 3: giving him like eight or nine more lawyers. I mean,

867
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 3: it's a drop in the bucket, but at least it's

868
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 3: a little bit better. But yeah, that's the system that

869
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 3: we're in, and as long as we're in that system,

870
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:48,760
Speaker 3: there's going to be another Malcolm Alexander every day, every hour.

871
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 3: You just don't have a shot. You don't have a shot.

872
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 3: So before we get to the star of our show,

873
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 3: for the closing thoughts, Malcolm Junior, you've been through so much,

874
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 3: I would love to get any anything that you want

875
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 3: to share with the audience about, you know, any thoughts

876
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 3: you have at all.

877
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 4: Just never give up on your family.

878
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 9: You know it'd be a rough road going through that

879
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 9: and seeing someone you love that's incarcerated like that, knowing

880
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 9: that they are innocent, and you have all kind of

881
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 9: mixed emotions Like I said, you be mad, you be sad,

882
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 9: and everything else and all above. But just stay prayed

883
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 9: up and just keep hoping and wishing that something of breaking.

884
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 9: Thanks to the Innocent Project. I thank them for everything

885
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 9: they have done for myself, my dad and my family,

886
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 9: putting him back in my life because I never thought

887
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 9: this day'll come. So it's just like unbelievable for me,

888
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 9: for my grandmother, it's like waking up to be able

889
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 9: to talk to him. I don't got to be worried

890
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 9: about waiting on the phone call. It's just just out,

891
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 9: you know, I'm forty now. He went when I was two,

892
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 9: but we still got a lot of time that we can,

893
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,439
Speaker 9: you know, share and him being here for my son,

894
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 9: and so I'm just thankful that everybody, you know, most

895
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 9: of my family still hear that can enjoy him and

896
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 9: live the rest of our life with him, you know.

897
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 4: So I'm definitely happy for.

898
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 3: That your grandson will get a chance to hear this.

899
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 3: And is there anything specific you want to say either

900
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 3: about him or to him?

901
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 7: Well, actually, I've been out there life. I've been out

902
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 7: their life a long time, and for that I like

903
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 7: to apologize not only to my son but also to

904
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 7: my grandson. And I like to see that I'm really

905
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 7: proud of my son for what he actually has done

906
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 7: with his life and sending it over to my grandson.

907
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 7: He done well with my grandson, but I can't say

908
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 7: no more to either one of them out tied the

909
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 7: fact that really I love him and being here with him,

910
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 7: it's actually gonna give me opportunity to show just how

911
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 7: much I really love.

912
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 3: Him out the moment we've all been waiting for. And

913
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 3: what else can you share with our audience.

914
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 7: Well, he touched on something there and like I said,

915
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 7: and being there. You know, you never lose thought of

916
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 7: your family, and especially important that your family never lose

917
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 7: thought of you. So usually like setting the gold for yourself,

918
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 7: and your goal is to return back to your loved ones.

919
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 7: But most of us actually never Like I said, I

920
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 7: never felt I never realized how much that had affect them.

921
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 7: You know, I guess I was so caught up in

922
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 7: trying to get back to him, I never took the

923
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 7: time out to think about how that affect them. And

924
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:55,919
Speaker 7: since I've been out and being like, man, y'all really

925
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 7: missed me. You know, It's like y'all really kept love

926
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 7: for me. You know, it just wouldn't saying it or

927
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 7: even with the idea of just doing their things like

928
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 7: seeing me money anything like that. It was like, we

929
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 7: need you, and I guess see just nice and doing

930
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 7: that you is really love.

931
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 3: I guess that says it all. Yeah, all I can

932
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 3: say about that is again, thank you for being here.

933
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 3: I wish you all the blessings that life has to offer.

934
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:36,959
Speaker 3: You know, I hope you live to be a great

935
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 3: grandfather and a great great grandfather and then everything goes

936
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 3: your way. So thanks again for sharing your story, and

937
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 3: to all of you Malcolm Junior Andessa, thanks again for

938
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 3: being here and you've been listening to a truly extraordinary

939
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 3: man and an amazing episode of Wrongful Conviction. Thank you,

940
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 3: thank you, thank you. Don't forget to give us a

941
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 3: fantastic review.

942
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 4: Wherever you get your podcasts.

943
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 3: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

944
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 3: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in

945
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 3: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

946
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 3: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how

947
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 3: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

948
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 3: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in

949
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 3: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

950
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 3: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

951
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 3: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

952
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 3: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

953
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 3: and association with Signal Company Number one