WEBVTT - Appetite for Eating.  Josh Rogin Talks to Armstrong & Getty

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<v Speaker 1>I have been obsessed with the US versus China story

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<v Speaker 1>for a couple of years now. I don't remember why

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<v Speaker 1>or how it got on my radar, but man, I

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<v Speaker 1>just I just suck up everything I can find about it.

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<v Speaker 1>And we talked to Josh Rogan a while back. There's

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<v Speaker 1>something about COVID and China or something. Anyway, he's got

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<v Speaker 1>a new book out, Chaos under Heaven, Trump g in

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<v Speaker 1>the Battle for the twenty one Century. Josh Rogan is

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<v Speaker 1>the global opinions columnist for the Washington Post, and man,

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<v Speaker 1>some great reviews. I just read the Wall Street Journal

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<v Speaker 1>review on this last night. Is one of the first

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<v Speaker 1>great books on what is going to be the story

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<v Speaker 1>for the next century or more, the US versus China.

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<v Speaker 1>Josh Rogan joins us. Josh, how are you sir, Hey guy,

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<v Speaker 1>it's great to be back with you. Um. Just in general,

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<v Speaker 1>my statement correct that this is maybe the biggest story

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<v Speaker 1>in the world for the next century, US versus China. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>not only is the US uh China relationship the most

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<v Speaker 1>important biolateral relationship of our lifetime, that's increasingly obvious. It's

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<v Speaker 1>also the biggest story for every country in the world,

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<v Speaker 1>because every country in the world is now suffering through

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<v Speaker 1>a coronavirus pandemic that originated in China. So there are

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<v Speaker 1>seven billion people who are suddenly quite aware of the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that what happens in Beijing doesn't stay in Beijing,

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<v Speaker 1>and that to some degree, and we can debate how

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<v Speaker 1>much the actions and character of the Chinese Communist Party

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<v Speaker 1>affect our lives are national security, our public health, our prosperity,

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<v Speaker 1>and undeniable ways. So that's like an awakening that now

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<v Speaker 1>it's not just you know, certain people in certain everybody

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<v Speaker 1>can agree on that. Now the question is what do

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<v Speaker 1>we do about it? Well, we know the answer to

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<v Speaker 1>this question, But where do you stand on the issue

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<v Speaker 1>of the origin of the coronavirus, the lab leak theory,

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<v Speaker 1>the rest of it. You know, I gotta tell you,

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<v Speaker 1>I was one of the first reporters in April to

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<v Speaker 1>publish about the still unproven but very plausible theory that

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<v Speaker 1>the outbreak was related to a mistake of of these

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<v Speaker 1>Woohan labs. And you know, for over a year I

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<v Speaker 1>was amazed that no one would talk about it, That

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<v Speaker 1>people would talk about it would get insulted and and

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<v Speaker 1>and shouted down, And it was just crazy. And now

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<v Speaker 1>here we are eighteen months after the outbreak and there's

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<v Speaker 1>still been no investigation. And my point is not that

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<v Speaker 1>we know that it came from the lab. My point

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<v Speaker 1>is we have to check it out. In other words,

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<v Speaker 1>we can't rule it out, so we have to check

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<v Speaker 1>it out. It seems like a pretty reasonable and obvious

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<v Speaker 1>thing to say. It's always seemed that way to me,

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<v Speaker 1>But now all of a sudden, the mainstream media and uh,

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<v Speaker 1>different parts of the government, including the Bid administration, are like,

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<v Speaker 1>wait a second, you're telling me that there are a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of back coronavirus is next to the outbreak that

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<v Speaker 1>we did check out those labs that had all about coronaviruses.

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<v Speaker 1>That's crazy. We should check it out. So I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>saying we know it came from the lab. I'm just

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<v Speaker 1>saying we should probably check it out. We knew a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of media criticism, and so we've talked a lot

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<v Speaker 1>about the you know, whether it was it was important

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<v Speaker 1>to be anti Trump and Trump was pushing the narrative

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<v Speaker 1>or whatever it is in the media. But inside a government,

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<v Speaker 1>that's what's fascinating to me. What was going on to

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<v Speaker 1>your mind inside a government? That was causing some scientists

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<v Speaker 1>to ignore what seems like the most likely cause to

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<v Speaker 1>actively cover it up. And that's right. They absolutely did that,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're there. It's really important because you're right. It

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't just the media that wanted to sort of dismiss

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<v Speaker 1>the Lab League cary because they couldn't. They dodn't want

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<v Speaker 1>Trump to be right about anything, you know, like even

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<v Speaker 1>the broken clock is right quite the day. The guy

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<v Speaker 1>was bound to be right about something, whether you like

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<v Speaker 1>it or not, and the media just couldn't deal with that.

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<v Speaker 1>But if that's the government, you had a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>things going on. One, you had the scientists who were

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<v Speaker 1>the closest to the lab and who were collaborators with

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<v Speaker 1>the Wuhan Institute of Virology and all these other back

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<v Speaker 1>coronavirus labs in China. Uh calling it a conspiracy srey

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<v Speaker 1>to cover their own butts because they didn't want anyone

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<v Speaker 1>to look into the lab because that would mean that

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<v Speaker 1>we were looking into them. In other words, the Lab

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<v Speaker 1>League series doesn't just implicate China, implicates all of our

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<v Speaker 1>scientific collaboration with China, because we built those labs along

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<v Speaker 1>with the French. We gave them this technology. We taught

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<v Speaker 1>them how to play around with viruses, and then they

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<v Speaker 1>built another part of the lab that they didn't tell

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<v Speaker 1>us about, and no one was watching it. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>why the Lablick theory is so sensitive to the scientific

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<v Speaker 1>community in the US because it implicates us. It implicates

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<v Speaker 1>Fauci and Collins and all these guys who were doling

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<v Speaker 1>out the money that is going to these Chinese labs

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<v Speaker 1>that no one was paying attention to. And that relates

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<v Speaker 1>to what was going on inside the government because if

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<v Speaker 1>you're the intelligence community, if you just think about it,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the Lablick theory is true. Well that then that's

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<v Speaker 1>that's bad for them too, because they missed it. Because

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<v Speaker 1>we've spent eighties six billion dollars a year on intelligence

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<v Speaker 1>stuff and zero of it was pointed at this network

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<v Speaker 1>of risky labs doing risky research that was funded by

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<v Speaker 1>US taxpayers. And that's pretty awful if that's true, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's why. And then, of course, you know, the some

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<v Speaker 1>of the intelligence guys didn't like the Trump people and

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<v Speaker 1>they didn't want them to be right either. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the media trust of the scientists and the intelligence guys

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<v Speaker 1>trusted the same scientists. So it was like a perfect

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<v Speaker 1>storm of bs and by the time we started to

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<v Speaker 1>figure it out, it was all too late. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>are you willing to call it a cover up? Absolutely well,

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<v Speaker 1>there's several cover ups. There's a first and foremost the

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<v Speaker 1>Chinese Communist Party cover up, which is not just about

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<v Speaker 1>the origins, which is about everything. They covered up the scientists,

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<v Speaker 1>They jailed the whistleblowers. Uh you know, they jailed the journalists.

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<v Speaker 1>They kept all of the science that they had away

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<v Speaker 1>from the Inn. They continue to to this day. They

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<v Speaker 1>won't give us vital information that's could help us in

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<v Speaker 1>a response to the information that they have, while our

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<v Speaker 1>citizens are getting second dye, and not just us, people

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<v Speaker 1>all over the world. That's the first cover up. The

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<v Speaker 1>second cover up is the one by the American scientists

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<v Speaker 1>who are the friends of the lab. And that's all

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<v Speaker 1>being revealed now and all these emails that are getting released.

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<v Speaker 1>But we kind of knew it already. In other words,

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<v Speaker 1>the scientists went around and they wrote all these papers

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<v Speaker 1>in scientific journals that said it's a conspiracy theory if

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned the lab right me all they were ready

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<v Speaker 1>emails to each other which were like, hey, the one

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<v Speaker 1>might be involved, we should probably check it out. So

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<v Speaker 1>they were telling us one thing and telling themselves a

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<v Speaker 1>completely different thing. That's the nature of the deception. That's

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<v Speaker 1>a that's another cover up right there, You know what

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<v Speaker 1>I mean. So there's two cover ups. Right. What is

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<v Speaker 1>it about the nature of communist systems that gives us

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<v Speaker 1>a chernobyl, that gives us an outbreak of the coronavirus.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a really good question because this sort of very

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<v Speaker 1>floorlates to the overall theme of the book, right, which

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<v Speaker 1>is that what we're dealing with here is a party

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<v Speaker 1>state that's has no moral compunction, that will stup to

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<v Speaker 1>any level and do anything to protect its own political interests,

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<v Speaker 1>which it places above everything else. So, in other words,

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<v Speaker 1>what we have to understand is that first of all,

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<v Speaker 1>the Chinese Comunist Party is not looking out for us

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<v Speaker 1>for certainly right, there's also not looking out necessarily for

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<v Speaker 1>the Chinese people or even China's nation. So looking out

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<v Speaker 1>for the party that means protecting the party. That means

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<v Speaker 1>they will even subject their own people to horrendous stuff

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<v Speaker 1>ring to protect the party. That's how you get a

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<v Speaker 1>cover up like this, That's how you can have a

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<v Speaker 1>worldwide pandemic, and they're just like, no, what screw you,

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<v Speaker 1>We're not gonna tell you anything. What are you gonna

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<v Speaker 1>do about it? That's their attitude, right, which is shocking

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<v Speaker 1>and horrible. Right. The other thing he tells you is

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, when when they're setting up all of

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<v Speaker 1>these engagements with us, whether it be scientific engagement or

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<v Speaker 1>academic or political or trade, they're thinking about how to

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<v Speaker 1>weaponize those engagements against us. So that means like Fauci

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<v Speaker 1>and Collins and all these scientists who are like, how

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<v Speaker 1>could these Chinese researchers do something bad? They're just trying

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<v Speaker 1>to do research, and we're trying to say, see the world,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know that how they wouldn't do that. But

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<v Speaker 1>what these American sizes don't realize is that in their

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<v Speaker 1>system and the CCP system, the scientists don't get to

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<v Speaker 1>make those decisions. It's all controlled by the party, and

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<v Speaker 1>the party will do anything, including let billions of people

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<v Speaker 1>get sick and die, if they think it's in their

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<v Speaker 1>political interests for their time being, and that's exactly what happens.

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<v Speaker 1>The book is Chaos under having Trump. She in the

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<v Speaker 1>Battle for the Century were talking with that Global opinions

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<v Speaker 1>columnist for the Washington Post. So you think the big

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<v Speaker 1>mistake was our scientists trusted the Chinese. Not only did

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<v Speaker 1>we trust, we didn't verify. It's one thing to have

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<v Speaker 1>a collaboration, it's another thing to let it just grow

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<v Speaker 1>into a two million dollar network of labs that no

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<v Speaker 1>one's watching, not the intelligence community, not the scientists, not

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<v Speaker 1>the government. And of course they took that technology and

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<v Speaker 1>built it another side of the lab with their military.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what we now know. That's not a Trump administration

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<v Speaker 1>claim alone. That's what the Biden administration confirmed. We we

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<v Speaker 1>built up a huge virus research industry in China, and

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<v Speaker 1>they took it and then they built another side of

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<v Speaker 1>the lab, those sides we didn't know about with their

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<v Speaker 1>military to do god knows what, okay. And and that's

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<v Speaker 1>that's a perfect recipe for a disaster. And you know, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I could say that, like, you know, the American scientists,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe they truly believed that they're Chinese scientists and uh

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't do that to them. But then they're horrendously naive

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<v Speaker 1>when when the pandemic hit, it was all the people

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<v Speaker 1>who understand China, who knew who knew what the score was,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was the national security people who really understood

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<v Speaker 1>the nature of this ECP who looked at their actions

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<v Speaker 1>instead of course they're lying. Of course they're hiding stuff

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<v Speaker 1>because that's what they did in the Stars epidemic twelve

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<v Speaker 1>years or twenty years prior. They just did it again.

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<v Speaker 1>The problem was the first time it only killed eight

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<v Speaker 1>thousand people. This time he killed three point five million. Accounting.

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<v Speaker 1>When we come back with Josh Rogan, we want to

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<v Speaker 1>talk more specifically about the Battle for the twenty one

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<v Speaker 1>Century Chaos under Heaven Trump she In the Battle for

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<v Speaker 1>the Century being the title of the book, and how

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<v Speaker 1>interesting it is and notable that that that break, that

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<v Speaker 1>pivot to open rivalry took place during the Trump administration

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<v Speaker 1>of all time. So, Josh, if you can hang on,

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<v Speaker 1>we were gonna get right back to it in moments.

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<v Speaker 1>Stay with us. Are if you missed our first segment

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<v Speaker 1>with Josh Rogan about his book Chaos under heavn Trump

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<v Speaker 1>she In the Battle for the twenty one Century, go

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<v Speaker 1>to the podcast at Armstrong and Getty dot com because

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<v Speaker 1>we got in specifically to a lot of the coronavirus

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<v Speaker 1>and the origins and the cover up not just by

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<v Speaker 1>China but by our own damn scientists as to how

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<v Speaker 1>this whole thing started, which is really really troubling. Josh,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you're familiar with the book Hundred

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<v Speaker 1>Year Marathon by Pillsbury. We've we've talked about that book

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<v Speaker 1>a lot, and his argument and he was with the

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<v Speaker 1>Nixon administration is going back to Nixon opening China. China

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<v Speaker 1>has been playing us this entire time, and we thought, no, no, no,

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<v Speaker 1>this is good news. But they knew what they were

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<v Speaker 1>doing all along. Did Trump, in his unique way, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>did he open the eyes of people in America and

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<v Speaker 1>to the world of what China is really up to?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think? I think the administration did a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of that work, and it was really important. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't all good. Some of it he did in

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<v Speaker 1>a pretty chaotic way. That's why my book is called

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<v Speaker 1>Asked under Heaven. But yeah, I know the book un

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<v Speaker 1>your your Marathon, and Pillsbury is in the in my

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<v Speaker 1>book too. And you know the bottom line is that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we had this forty year, fifty year bet

0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.640
<v Speaker 1>that if we just engaged the Chinese Communist Party as

0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:15.920
<v Speaker 1>much as possible, and integrated them into our system as

0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.000
<v Speaker 1>much as possible, that they would liberalize and become more

0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.000
<v Speaker 1>like us, first economically and then politically, and that would

0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.360
<v Speaker 1>solve all of our problems, that we could avoid the

0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.280
<v Speaker 1>Cold War and all that. Uh. And whether or not

0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.400
<v Speaker 1>you think that was a good bet or a bad bet.

0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.679
<v Speaker 1>Pillsbury thinks it was a bad bet. Other people say

0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.520
<v Speaker 1>that was a reasonable bit to make that time. My

0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:36.599
<v Speaker 1>view is it doesn't really matter. Now. We just have

0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.160
<v Speaker 1>to realize that the bet has failed, not because we

0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.840
<v Speaker 1>weren't nice about it, not because we weren't good intentions,

0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.400
<v Speaker 1>but because China decided to go another way, and especially

0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.000
<v Speaker 1>since Hi jing Pin came to power, they're taking China

0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.200
<v Speaker 1>in the opposite direction, and they're becoming less liberal and

0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:55.000
<v Speaker 1>more repressive and more aggressive, and then they're also interfering

0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.400
<v Speaker 1>in our free and open societies and we can't have that.

0:11:57.840 --> 0:11:59.880
<v Speaker 1>And so now, whether or not you think it was

0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.839
<v Speaker 1>good or bad bet, we have to realize that that

0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.439
<v Speaker 1>that's over and we have to have a new strategic

0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:07.040
<v Speaker 1>response that I take you, that's what you see the

0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.240
<v Speaker 1>Biden administration actually saying very clearly, and that doesn't mean

0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:11.920
<v Speaker 1>we're doing it but at least we're saying it, which

0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:16.560
<v Speaker 1>is the first thing. So that pivot from front of

0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.800
<v Speaker 1>me is too openly rivals. It was going to happen,

0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.080
<v Speaker 1>It had to happen. Was there something about Trump and

0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:27.480
<v Speaker 1>his personality that that accelerated the timetable? Absolutely? You know,

0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.640
<v Speaker 1>the thing about the Trump administration is that they didn't

0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:31.600
<v Speaker 1>care about you know, what were the sort of like

0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.960
<v Speaker 1>the rules of Washington. And then those rules of Washington

0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.760
<v Speaker 1>constrained US China policy for all this time because the

0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.680
<v Speaker 1>China issue was run by the China experts, and they're

0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:42.920
<v Speaker 1>the ones who got us largely into this mess in

0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.959
<v Speaker 1>the first place. So it just opened the overton window

0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.880
<v Speaker 1>of what was possible inside the government. And then of

0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.079
<v Speaker 1>course there were a lot of competitions, and not everybody

0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.040
<v Speaker 1>inside the Trump administration agreed on China. You know, people

0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:58.040
<v Speaker 1>like uh, Mike Pompello and Stevenuga totally disagreed. But the

0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.240
<v Speaker 1>point is that all new things, all of the new

0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:02.319
<v Speaker 1>things were on the table, and so all of a

0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.240
<v Speaker 1>sudden you started to seek confronting China in our schools

0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.880
<v Speaker 1>and in our capital markets, and even in Hollywood and

0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.199
<v Speaker 1>in the tech industry and I'm not saying it all

0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.120
<v Speaker 1>with perfectly. I'm just saying that all of those options

0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.480
<v Speaker 1>were now at least being explored, and now that binda

0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:19.760
<v Speaker 1>mistress just trying to step through them to see which

0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:21.960
<v Speaker 1>parts of the Trump China policy they want to keep

0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.200
<v Speaker 1>and they want to discard, And they're actually keeping a

0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.400
<v Speaker 1>lot more than you would have thought. Right, if that's

0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.600
<v Speaker 1>that should be a signed You know that they the

0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Biden people who are like hate all the Trump stuff

0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:34.400
<v Speaker 1>on all the other countries. They hate the Trump you know,

0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Russia approach, they hate the Trump Iran approach, but on China,

0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.800
<v Speaker 1>they're basically continuing most of it. That means though they

0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.520
<v Speaker 1>probably saw a lot of it in there that was

0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.360
<v Speaker 1>pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty interesting that for all the

0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:48.520
<v Speaker 1>talk in the media and you know, on the campaign

0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.440
<v Speaker 1>trail about how awful Trump's approach was, the tariffs are

0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.400
<v Speaker 1>still in place. A lot of the stuff still in place.

0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.960
<v Speaker 1>Um this far into Biden's presidency, um where I just

0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.480
<v Speaker 1>keep thinking that the break is going to come with

0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.839
<v Speaker 1>US businesses in China. And it's inevitable too, Like Joe said,

0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.240
<v Speaker 1>it was inevitable. We went from friend of these enemies

0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.160
<v Speaker 1>at what point, do does the NBA, does Apple? Does

0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.559
<v Speaker 1>everybody just have to stop doing business with China? Do

0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.480
<v Speaker 1>you think that's coming? Yeah? No, I think the business

0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.520
<v Speaker 1>community is still split because I think and I think

0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.280
<v Speaker 1>the fight over this inside the Bider administration is still coming.

0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.360
<v Speaker 1>Like they haven't appointed a lot of the people in

0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.000
<v Speaker 1>like Treasury and these places. Those are the people who

0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:26.880
<v Speaker 1>are gonna push back and say no, no, no, no,

0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:28.760
<v Speaker 1>but you just gotta get rid of the tarifs and

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.360
<v Speaker 1>go back to business to avoid the Cold war whatever

0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:33.520
<v Speaker 1>nonsense they're going to come up with. And so I

0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 1>think in the business community, first of all, have the

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.560
<v Speaker 1>companies that are corporate hostages, right, like the Apples and

0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.600
<v Speaker 1>the NBA, and they know they've got a problem, right

0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.120
<v Speaker 1>They're making money in China, but for how long you know,

0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.200
<v Speaker 1>and the squeezes is on, you know what I mean.

0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.000
<v Speaker 1>So I think we should actually help those companies not

0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.120
<v Speaker 1>get bullied around by the CCP. Uh. Then on the

0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.120
<v Speaker 1>other side, there's the financial services companies which are pushing

0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:58.640
<v Speaker 1>for more engagement because there have a corrupt interest in

0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:01.840
<v Speaker 1>getting to this cold wort thing. So if you look

0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.600
<v Speaker 1>at the Goldman Saxes and the Bloomberg Barkleys and the

0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 1>MSCI and the mortgage Stanleys of the world. Uh, they're

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.280
<v Speaker 1>pumping money into China and taking Chinese money left, hand

0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.920
<v Speaker 1>over fist because they're pushing back against this realization that

0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.880
<v Speaker 1>we're in this competition. So I think that's a that's

0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.080
<v Speaker 1>the problem, actually a problem that we have to be

0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:22.760
<v Speaker 1>really clear eyed about. Oh yeah, well, I think it's

0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.840
<v Speaker 1>gonna be like, you know, decoupling with China is gonna

0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.480
<v Speaker 1>be like giving up meth heroin and smoking all on

0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 1>the same week. I mean, it's gonna be an enormous disruption. Yeah.

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:35.720
<v Speaker 1>And you know, you have so many American elites on

0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.680
<v Speaker 1>both sides, i'le who are thoroughly compromised, who are corrupted,

0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.240
<v Speaker 1>who are making money on both ends, and have an

0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.320
<v Speaker 1>interest in telling us that their national security threat is

0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:46.600
<v Speaker 1>fake and that it's all just you know, Mike Pompeios,

0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:50.240
<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump cold war nonsense. But you know, uh, to them,

0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.120
<v Speaker 1>I would say, well, then you have to accuse the

0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.280
<v Speaker 1>Biden administration being part of that too, because they're saying

0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.320
<v Speaker 1>that the threat is real. They're saying that we have

0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.120
<v Speaker 1>to have some limited decoupling, not total decoupling. But some

0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.520
<v Speaker 1>limited the coupling to protect ourselves, so that you know,

0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:05.840
<v Speaker 1>the next time the Chinese Communist Party gets mad about

0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.880
<v Speaker 1>a tweet, the entire NBA doesn't suffer. Or the next

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.560
<v Speaker 1>time that there's a pandemic that they don't have all

0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.520
<v Speaker 1>their masks, all the masks in the world that they

0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:15.520
<v Speaker 1>hang over our heads. That tell us to shut up

0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.160
<v Speaker 1>about the origin of the coronavirus, which is exactly what happened. Josh,

0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.000
<v Speaker 1>I want to jam in one more question. Your book

0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.080
<v Speaker 1>is Chaos Underhoving Trump she in the Battle for the

0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.640
<v Speaker 1>twenty one century? This is short. Is it inevitable that

0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.760
<v Speaker 1>China China took Hong Kong? Are they going to take

0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:33.920
<v Speaker 1>take Taiwan? Nothing inevitable, but nothing is inevitable, but the

0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.240
<v Speaker 1>thread is rising and not. What I say is that

0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.360
<v Speaker 1>the best way to ensure their aggression is to do nothing,

0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.920
<v Speaker 1>and that their appetite grows with the eating. And we've

0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.880
<v Speaker 1>seen that appeasement doesn't work. So if we don't, if

0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.280
<v Speaker 1>we want to avoid them taking Taiwan, then we have

0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:49.960
<v Speaker 1>to stand up for Taiwan. Now. We have to do that. Now.

0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.400
<v Speaker 1>I have to support Taiwan war now and I hope

0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.360
<v Speaker 1>to find administration will do that. Josh, thanks for your time.

0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.600
<v Speaker 1>The great book Chaos under Heaving Trump. She in the

0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.320
<v Speaker 1>Battle for the twenty one century. We hope to have

0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.200
<v Speaker 1>it on again. That's good stuff right there. Thanks Si Milion,

0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.719
<v Speaker 1>great conversation Armstrong and Getty