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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 2: Our colleague Nol is on an adventure, but will be

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Speaker 2: returning shortly.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: argue you are here. That makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know. Matt, full disclosure. This is

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Speaker 3: a topic we had we kind of discussed offline when

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Speaker 3: we were planning different episodes, and this is one that

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Speaker 3: I almost stepped away from and then you said no

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Speaker 3: and we got to keep it. What the heck is

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Speaker 3: going on here?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is a story that reminds me heavily of

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite movies of all time, and we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about that when we get to it. For me personally,

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Speaker 2: that is why I insisted then we cover.

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Speaker 3: This talk and this exploration. I can't wait to learn

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Speaker 3: about the film. I'm going to spend the entire time

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Speaker 3: trying to guess which one it is, but I can't

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Speaker 3: wait to go there with you. Tonight's exploration takes us

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Speaker 3: across the pond, across the Atlantic to Manchester, England. It

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Speaker 3: is a place that I believe, Dylan, Matt and myself

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Speaker 3: have never personally visited. We are exploring a grizzly tragic

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Speaker 3: story decades in the making. This episode will contain descriptions

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Speaker 3: of death, will contain allegations of some pretty disturbing, unclean things. Matt.

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Speaker 3: If we go to Manchester and we talk to people

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Speaker 3: who believe in a certain theory, they will tell us

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Speaker 3: that there is an active serial killer operating with impunity

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Speaker 3: throughout the Greater Manchester area, targeting young men. But then,

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Speaker 3: you know, we could as easily go across the street

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Speaker 3: to some other place where we would find critics who

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Speaker 3: say the entire thing is made up. And a lot

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Speaker 3: of those critics candidly are going to be law enforcement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they would call it rubbish at least that's

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Speaker 2: the way they talk about it in the.

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Speaker 3: News, absolutely, and have maintained that stance for decades. One

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Speaker 3: aspect of the story that rings inarguably true is simply

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Speaker 3: this people have died and are dying in these waterways

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Speaker 3: in these canals. This is the story of the Manchester Pusher.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts all right again? You know, we

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Speaker 3: have not personally visited Manchester, and I think there's something

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Speaker 3: we need to we need to clear the air on

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Speaker 3: before we continue. Greater Manchester is kind of like fairly

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Speaker 3: far north sort of northwest of London in the United Kingdom.

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Speaker 3: And we can think of it the way you think

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Speaker 3: of a county here in the US, you know, like

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Speaker 3: Fulton County. What's another county, Gwet, Gwinnett. There we go.

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Speaker 3: That's one of the good ones for sy Yes, is

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Speaker 3: it for Syth the land of retired delta pilots and

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Speaker 3: golf cart drivers and accountants and accountants they get in there.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. That was my dad?

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Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, all true. And tip of the cap to

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Speaker 3: the legendary mister Frederick. What you may find confusing if

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Speaker 3: you're not familiar with the area, and something that's going

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Speaker 3: to be important to this story later. The Greater Manchester

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Speaker 3: thing we're talking about again, it's like a county. The

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Speaker 3: largest city in that what they call a ceremonial county

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Speaker 3: is also called Manchester. Sort of how you have New

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Speaker 3: York and then you have New York City, and depending

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Speaker 3: on how far away you get from the city, those

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Speaker 3: are two very different places.

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Speaker 2: Oh so true, And Manchester does look quite sprawling when

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Speaker 2: you view it from above in one of these maps

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Speaker 2: that we have handy nowadays. It is pretty lovely. If

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Speaker 2: you want to find it, just head on over to Liverpool.

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Speaker 2: You've heard of that before though, he ows, and then

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Speaker 2: just head on east inwards.

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Speaker 3: Basically, yeah, the this area is like so much of

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Speaker 3: the United Kingdom overall, it's heavily developed. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of dense urbanization. The population overall is about two point

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Speaker 3: nine million. This wasn't always the case. Pre Industrial Revolution

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Speaker 3: and before the days of widespread coal mining, cotton in

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Speaker 3: the textile industry, Manchester was a pretty rural place. It

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Speaker 3: boomed like so many other places did during the Industrial Revolution,

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Speaker 3: and then it went bust as people moved away from coal,

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Speaker 3: as various local industries died. Now, if you go you

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Speaker 3: will see that Manchester is home to all sorts of

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Speaker 3: new industries, very big in the digital economy. And of

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Speaker 3: course we would be remiss to not shout out world

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Speaker 3: famous football or soccer teams like Manchester United.

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Speaker 2: Boom boom, and then let's definitely talk about Well, actually

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Speaker 2: I've noticed it, and maybe I'm full wrong here. This

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Speaker 2: is just an observation on my part. I've noticed multiple cities,

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Speaker 2: especially in Europe, that have large urban areas like this,

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Speaker 2: that have just so many canals that go through them

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Speaker 2: like like vanes, like a nervous system spreads throughout a city.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we've talked before on this show about

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Speaker 2: how important rivers were for especially in the United States,

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Speaker 2: but everywhere we knew it because of the United States

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Speaker 2: for transportation, how important the water was for getting stuff

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Speaker 2: long distances right. And you you know, I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: if it's the same with the canals here, but you

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Speaker 2: definitely see where the water. The city was built up

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Speaker 2: around the waterways, and then other waterways were interconnected to

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Speaker 2: each other to continue the flow.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that's an important point for any development nerds.

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Speaker 3: Fellow development nerds in the crowd may be interested to

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Speaker 3: learn that our fair metropolis of Atlanta, Georgia is a

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Speaker 3: bit of an anomaly. Big cities historically are built along

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Speaker 3: navigable water, be that a coast, be that a river way,

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Speaker 3: and Atlanta has some creeks, right We're in a state

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Speaker 3: with no natural bodies of water on its own. All

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Speaker 3: the lakes here are artificial. And then we've got the Chattahoochee,

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Speaker 3: which is navigable to a certain point depending on what

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Speaker 3: you want to.

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Speaker 5: Do by inflatable tube by inflatable tubes, preferably with some

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Speaker 5: Garth Brooks play in or who's that guy who did

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Speaker 5: way down yonder on the chattahooch Wait, Alan Jackson.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Dylan. Dylan was quick on the trigger for

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Speaker 3: that one. You had that locked and loaded.

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Speaker 2: I can totally see Dylan just floating the hooch, got

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Speaker 2: Maddie light in one hand.

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Speaker 3: So it's weird because and this has nothing to do

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Speaker 3: with our conversation now, it's weird because Atlanta is anomalous

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Speaker 3: in that sense of historical community and city development. We

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Speaker 3: have long argued and I think we're all just very

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Speaker 3: fascinating with the fact that the railway replaced the role

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Speaker 3: of the river for Atlanta, and then later the airways

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Speaker 3: replaced the role of you know, the rivers the railways.

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Speaker 3: In fact, we are home to the busiest airport in

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Speaker 3: the world, kaveat caveat Asterisk. But you make this excellent

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Speaker 3: point here, Matt. There is a lifeblood that goes through

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Speaker 3: a lot of these cities. And Manchester is not London,

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Speaker 3: but it is a serious city. It's got a ton

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Speaker 3: of interesting stuff to do, and it's got this network

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Speaker 3: of canals. Not as robust a network as some other

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Speaker 3: nearby towns like Birmingham, but canals in general, they always

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Speaker 3: seem so cool to land lubber at lantons like us.

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Speaker 3: It's weird. We get excited when we see bodies of water, like,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh, what happened there?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And just the physicality of some of these because

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Speaker 2: there are rivers that run through and then the canals

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Speaker 2: are much smaller right in scale at least if you

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Speaker 2: think about in the width of actual water as it's

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Speaker 2: rolling through, you know, buildings on one side with a

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Speaker 2: sidewalk of some sort and then the same on the

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Speaker 2: other side. But one of the important things to note

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Speaker 2: here is specifically in a lot of these places, these canals,

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Speaker 2: where the water is fairly deep, yes, and where the

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Speaker 2: top of the water reaches there's a pretty good amount

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Speaker 2: at least heightwise, of like concrete or stone work that

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Speaker 2: goes up to where somebody could get into that water

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Speaker 2: or get out of that water, specifically for flooding purposes. Right,

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Speaker 2: if there's an influx of a bunch of water, you

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Speaker 2: don't want all that water coming over into the streets.

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Speaker 2: You got to make sure there's enough space between the

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Speaker 2: top of that water and the edge of where it

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Speaker 2: could potentially spill over.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there are importantly often not barriers. You will

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Speaker 3: see warning signs. You will see something posted that says

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Speaker 3: watch out, you know, like don't jump in, because so

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Speaker 3: many of these canal ways are very deep. You could

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Speaker 3: jump in and then have a very difficult time getting out. Also,

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Speaker 3: just to be clear, this is not to cast dispersion

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Speaker 3: on the good people of Manchester. The canals are dirty.

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Speaker 3: Don't drink the water, you know what I mean, Like

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Speaker 3: just not even on a dare.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean it's best runoff, right, Yeah, water that's

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Speaker 2: entering there, you know, through some of the river weys.

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Speaker 2: But then it's also all the spill off water from

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Speaker 2: all of that industrial or just you know, regular urban area.

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Speaker 3: What we're saying is nobody is fishing in these or

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Speaker 3: no one should be, at least in the inner city

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Speaker 3: area of Manchester. They are picturesque, though a lot of

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Speaker 3: the views there are beautiful, and it's important to remember

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Speaker 3: that they can still be dangerous. We want to draw

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Speaker 3: your attention, folks, to an excellent piece by the Manchester

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Speaker 3: Evening News back in twenty sixteen, so almost ten years

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Speaker 3: ago now. They created an interactive map that showed the

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Speaker 3: locations of sixty one separate deaths, or we should say

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Speaker 3: discovery of bodies between two thousand and eight and twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 3: The bodies were all male. They were all found in

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Speaker 3: or next to canals and waterways, and it's worth a

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Speaker 3: look at this map. You can find it again just

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Speaker 3: search Manchester Evening News pusher map and you will find it.

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Speaker 3: When you scroll through, you can see the rubric that

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Speaker 3: they've instituted. It will show you where an individual went missing,

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Speaker 3: where their body was found, and then the coroner's ultimate verdict. However,

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Speaker 3: and this is incredibly upsetting for a lot of the

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Speaker 3: victims family and friends, the corner's verdict in multiple cases

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Speaker 3: is still open, meaning they have not officially determined the

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Speaker 3: cause of death. And Matt, you and I have worked

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Speaker 3: in the true crime world for quite a while now,

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Speaker 3: and so we know that drowning in particular can be

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Speaker 3: a bag of badgers forensically.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And if you take a look at this

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Speaker 2: map just I've kind of lost in it for a

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Speaker 2: second here, been looking at specifically, I think this would

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Speaker 2: be the Rockdale Canal r O C H D A

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Speaker 2: L E Canal where there are multiple spots along that

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Speaker 2: specific canal where bodies have been discovered or people have

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Speaker 2: been found deceeased, and that runs right through the major

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Speaker 2: part just north of the University district. If you're looking

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Speaker 2: at a map.

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Speaker 3: There, Yeah, yeah, exactly. Piccadilly, Manchester. Piccadilly has at least

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Speaker 3: you know, the five documented cases, and in some cases

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Speaker 3: further you will see name unknown an unidentified body is found,

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Speaker 3: which is frankly bizarre in the United Kingdom, especially in

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Speaker 3: recent times, because it is one of the most heavily

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Speaker 3: surveiled civilizations on the planet. There's CCTV and cell phone

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Speaker 3: tracking everywhere. It's kind of hard to be a stranger

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Speaker 3: in this part of the world. So you know, you're

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Speaker 3: if you are a corner and you are attempting to

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Speaker 3: determine a cause of death, when when you get to

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Speaker 3: the case of drowning, you have to also ask yourself

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Speaker 3: what happened before. Was there a slip and fall, maybe

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Speaker 3: a head injury that resulted in ultimate drowning. Was there

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Speaker 3: any evidence like ligature marks or something like that showing

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Speaker 3: that someone had died before they were put in the water.

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Speaker 3: That's the real, real tough part.

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Speaker 2: Well, and often toxicology comes into this stuff, especially because

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Speaker 2: of the nature of those canals, because there are bars

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Speaker 2: and pubs and places that you can go to all

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Speaker 2: along those canals where somebody may have a drink or

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Speaker 2: ten and accidentally fall right, which goes into the stuff

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Speaker 2: you're talking about and anything happened to the head, because

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Speaker 2: that could also be a fall, or it could be

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Speaker 2: blunt force trauma exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well said, And it's a great point about intoxicating substances.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about alcohol because there are you know, there's

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Speaker 3: a robust series of nightclub districts and bars and restaurants,

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Speaker 3: but we're also talking about party drugs, you know, which

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Speaker 3: could which could have some of the same physical effects.

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Speaker 3: This is, you know, this uncomfortable stuff to think through.

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Speaker 3: But the investigations themselves, even as we record this evening

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five, they are incredibly important for family

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Speaker 3: members and friends who are searching for closure after the

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Speaker 3: death of a loved one. You know, just there is

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Speaker 3: a kind of peace in understanding what actually happened. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: we said, Manchester's canals have plenty of signage, plenty of

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Speaker 3: posted warnings, but it is so easy to dismiss or

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Speaker 3: ignore a warning sign, especially if you live in the area.

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Speaker 3: You start to get your blinders on. Right, I know

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Speaker 3: this street. I don't need to figure out the speed

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Speaker 3: limit or you know, right, turn on red only or whatever.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Once you get into that auto functioning mode, you just

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Speaker 2: have to be really careful because your faculties aren't working

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Speaker 2: the same.

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Speaker 3: And look, there's something weird with the pattern here. Despite

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Speaker 3: being about the same size as Birmingham, or comparable to

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Speaker 3: Birmingham in the UK, and despite the fact that Birmingham

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Speaker 3: has a larger canal network, more people seem to be

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Speaker 3: dying in Manchester's canals, and people to this day are

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Speaker 3: still asking why you know we're talking about this Earlier

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Speaker 3: the police have always maintained that these are isolated instances.

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Speaker 3: If you ask the Greater Manchester Police or GMP now

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Speaker 3: they will still tell you there is no real pattern

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Speaker 3: to these deaths. The vast majority can be explained as simple,

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Speaker 3: no tragic accidents. And I think you painted the picture

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Speaker 3: really well there. The weather's not always great. Things get slippery, muddy,

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Speaker 3: you can slip and fall, and you can hit your head.

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Speaker 3: And the bad weather can make it tough to get

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Speaker 3: out of a canal once you're in, especially if we're

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Speaker 3: talking about the ones with the very high distance between

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Speaker 3: the surface and the water.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it does make you think, well, if these

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Speaker 2: are all just isolated incidents and there are this many

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Speaker 2: drownings in that many years, then we need to really

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Speaker 2: really do some work on the rail the railings that

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Speaker 2: are installed and the fences.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe put up some barriers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah maybe, because if you.

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Speaker 3: Again, we are land lubber Atlanta. And I don't know

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Speaker 3: about you, man, but I've seen I've seen things where

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm looking at these pictures of Manchester and

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Speaker 3: the canals and I'm thinking that's a disaster waiting to happen,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. There's a restaurant with a

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Speaker 3: patio right there, and then not more than a few

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Speaker 3: meters away, there's a drop off.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, well and here. I think about where I used

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Speaker 2: to live down near Shambly, Georgia, and there's a place

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Speaker 2: called the Frosty Caboose. And this is a place where

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Speaker 2: you can go and get ice cream.

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Speaker 4: Right, okay, a bunch of kids.

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Speaker 2: One of my favorite things to do with Writer when

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Speaker 2: he was a little kid was go get ice cream

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Speaker 2: at the Frosty Caboose. But you can go enjoy your

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Speaker 2: ice cream in a special little area they've got with

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Speaker 2: picnic tables. And guess what, there is no barrier from

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Speaker 2: where you are having ice cream. And then the railroad

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Speaker 2: tracks which are right there.

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Speaker 4: Wow, And if you think.

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Speaker 2: About the danger that that poses that I didn't think

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Speaker 2: about because I'm just enjoying my Frosty caboos delight stuff.

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Speaker 2: But that sounds naughty, but that's not what it is.

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Speaker 4: It's ice cream.

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Speaker 2: But just how dangerous it is to have that right

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Speaker 2: there with no real warnings or no protection other than

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Speaker 2: I think some railroad ties that people put up, you know,

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Speaker 2: as like hey, don't go over across these Hey just.

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Speaker 3: Think this went through. Yeah, right. And I love that

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Speaker 3: we're pointing this out because that is something that happens

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Speaker 3: so often, a thing that is dangerous, seems safe ninety

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Speaker 3: nine times out of one hundred, and then it's the

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Speaker 3: one hundredth time where someone says something should be done.

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Speaker 3: And it should come as no surprise that a lot

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Speaker 3: of people in Manchester do not buy the official police explanation,

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Speaker 3: which puts you know, they're saying, we'll get to the

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Speaker 3: variety of factors, but the law enforcement stance has always

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Speaker 3: been the majority of these are accidents, and usually we

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Speaker 3: don't want to sound, you know, as though we're blaming

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Speaker 3: the victims or anything. But usually they'll say toxicology reports

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Speaker 3: indicate the person whose body was discovered had ingested a

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Speaker 3: lot of alcohol or ingested some kind of you know,

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Speaker 3: party drug, the implication being they were stumbling home, maybe

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Speaker 3: after a big celebration with their friends, they slipped, and

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Speaker 3: it was late at night, because a lot of this

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Speaker 3: appears to happen in the evening. It was late at night,

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Speaker 3: so not many other people were out on the streets,

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Speaker 3: and these folks were physically unable to extricate themselves from

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Speaker 3: the canal and then drowned. But people don't buy it,

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Speaker 3: you know, they say, sure, accidents can explain some of

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Speaker 3: these deaths, but not all and depending upon whom you ask,

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Speaker 3: you will hear folks swear to you that's somewhere out

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Speaker 3: there in Manchester, a serial killer is hunting, as we were.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll talk about why they think that, because

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Speaker 2: there seems to be some precedent, maybe pretty close by.

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy, all right. It's called the

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Speaker 3: Manchester pusher theory, or just the pusher, as they say

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Speaker 3: to Manchester. This theory argues that at least since at

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Speaker 3: least two thousand and seven, if not earlier, there has

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Speaker 3: been an active serial murderer, or perhaps on the more

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Speaker 3: extreme end of the theory, a group of murderers operating

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Speaker 3: in Manchester in Greater Manchester, murdering victims by pushing them

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Speaker 3: into the canals, possibly with additional injuries that prevent them

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Speaker 3: from getting back out.

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Speaker 2: That to me is a big deal, right, because it

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Speaker 2: all depends on how intoxicated a person potentially or a victim,

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Speaker 2: if there is a killer there, right, Because if if

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Speaker 2: you push me into a canal and I am a

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Speaker 2: little intoxicated, I'm getting out of that canal. But if

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Speaker 2: I'm too drunk or I've got other things in my body,

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Speaker 2: then maybe I can't or if you give me a

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Speaker 2: you know, wrap across the noggin, maybe I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to get out right.

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Speaker 3: If someone knocks you unconscious and then throws you in

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Speaker 3: a canal, are you going to wake up? It's a

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Speaker 3: tough question to answer. And this also brings to mind

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Speaker 3: something that longtime fellow conspiracy realist have doubtlessly already clocked. Matt,

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Speaker 3: You and I spent a lot of time investigating something

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Speaker 3: called the smiley face murders. What are those?

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Speaker 2: These are murders of mostly young men, where there is

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Speaker 2: somebody comes up missing for at least a few days,

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Speaker 2: if not, if not just hours, and then their body

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Speaker 2: is discovered somewhere near a body of water or in

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Speaker 2: a body of water, and generally, like the Corners report,

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Speaker 2: the report that comes back to the public and to

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Speaker 2: the family is that it was an accidental drowning of

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Speaker 2: some sort or usually related to the body of water.

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Speaker 2: That's how the death is categorized officially.

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Speaker 3: Often yeah, and the reason it's called smiley face murders

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00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 3: is because the investigators, some of whom are retired law

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Speaker 3: enforcement who believe that there is foul play at work.

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Speaker 3: They will tell you that in many of the smiley

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Speaker 3: face cases, there is some cryptic sign nearby graffiti. Think

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Speaker 3: of it a drawing of a smiley face or what

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00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 3: appears to be a smiley face. Please listen to our

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Speaker 3: episode that we did, gosh five years ago now, So

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Speaker 3: that case, like the Manchester Pusher, that theory remains dismissed

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Speaker 3: by law enforcement. They say, you know, it's a good story.

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Speaker 3: There's no evidence, or perhaps people are seeing patterns where

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Speaker 3: none exist, which is a human thing to do.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: One of the crevious things about that is that it

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Speaker 2: was occurring in several different cities across the US. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't just an isolated thing, right.

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Speaker 3: It would for the smiley faced murders to be true,

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Speaker 3: it would mean that the killer was traversing the US,

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Speaker 3: traveling interstate, you know, from state to state boarders I mean,

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Speaker 3: and then also possibly acting in concert with other people.

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Speaker 3: And without getting too far into the rabbit hole. One

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Speaker 3: of the big theories that I think we I think

380
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Speaker 3: we discussed I can't remember which rabbit hole this one was,

381
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Speaker 3: is the idea that it was some person working for

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Speaker 3: an HVAC outfit called train tr and E.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember something about that. The victims in the

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Speaker 2: Smiley Face murderers. Just want to reiterate, we're often young men,

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Speaker 2: and they often appeared to be targeted after a night

386
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Speaker 2: at a.

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Speaker 3: Bar, right right, and they were often disappearing near you know,

388
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Speaker 3: restaurants and bars and nightclubs. Another similar comparison would be

389
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Speaker 3: our previous series on the Interstate Corridor here in the US,

390
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Speaker 3: where the FBI genuinely they're not dismissing this when they

391
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Speaker 3: genuinely suspect there are multiple murderers affiliated with the long

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Speaker 3: haul trucking industry who are targeting people along this corridor,

393
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Speaker 3: especially in Texas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's precedent for that too. Thinking about the

395
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Speaker 2: happy Face killer there ah ooh, very close to the

396
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Speaker 2: Smiley Face.

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Speaker 3: Very much so. So we see already this is important context.

398
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 3: But because we see this pusher theory doesn't come from

399
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 3: out of the blue, it doesn't come from whole new cloth.

400
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 3: There are recedents, not just in the realm of theory,

401
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 3: but there are documented cases where things like this can occur.

402
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 3: The pusher, the Manchester Pushers, should one exist, does not

403
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 3: have a call sign nor a signature, as is alleged

404
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 3: with the Smiley Faced murders, but drowning bodies of water

405
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: universally male victims. All those signs are there, and these

406
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 3: canals are dangerous. Look at the pictures. Again, we're not

407
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: the coolest people, but we're kind of savvy and we

408
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 3: can identify danger from afar. We can read the room.

409
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 3: These canals. Some of them have ladders at various points

410
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Speaker 3: to help you climb in and out of the water,

411
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Speaker 3: especially where there's a very big distance between the water

412
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Speaker 3: and the surface. But those ladders aren't everywhere. There are barriers.

413
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Speaker 3: There are a few barriers, but those barriers aren't everywhere.

414
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Speaker 3: Even if you are in good shape, you know, you're

415
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 3: not panicking, you're not injured, and somehow you end up

416
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Speaker 3: in the canal. There are areas of these waterways where

417
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 3: it would be impossible for you to scale back to land.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd have to follow the canal for quite a

419
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: while until you found essentially an escape, you know. Gosh,

420
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Speaker 2: and thinking about ending up in one of those canals

421
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: and being pursued by somebody above that can just walk

422
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Speaker 2: with you as you're trying to escape.

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Speaker 3: Ooh cinematic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's cinematic, and that's terrifying and You could

425
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: imagine how that would up your adrenaline, which would only

426
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 2: further cause you to exert yourself in the water.

427
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Speaker 4: There are a lot of bad.

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Speaker 3: Scenarios make you more likely to ingest water as well

429
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: as you struggle to stay afloat. We also know that

430
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 3: the deaths in Manchester seem to occur in three canals

431
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 3: in particular one we mentioned earlier Roachdale, but then also

432
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Speaker 3: Ashton and Bridgewater Canals. A lot of these folks are

433
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 3: inarguably accidents, some may be suicides. They may be possibly

434
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 3: a situation where a person took their own life. But

435
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 3: the frequency of those deaths in Manchester, again compared to

436
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: other similar cities, the pattern is odd. And this is

437
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 3: where we want to tip our cap to the BBC.

438
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: They chase down the origin of this story or the

439
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 3: origin of this idea when it entered the zeitgeist, when

440
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 3: it became part of popular culture. This is where we

441
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: find Professor Craig Jackson, an academic over at Birmingham City University,

442
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: and he was speaking to The Day Least Star Sunday

443
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen and he said he found it quote

444
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 3: extremely unlikely that such an alarming number of bodies found

445
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 3: in the canals could be the result of accidents or suicides.

446
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: He wasn't making any wackado claim. He was again pointing

447
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: to the quantifiable evidence and saying this is anomalous. He said,

448
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 3: maybe maybe there is an active assailant responsible for some

449
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: of these murders. But he never said a single person

450
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 3: was responsible for every death. He just said, you know,

451
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 3: in some cases you also have to look into the

452
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 3: possibility of homicide, which is absolutely true.

453
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, he's given so many great quotes over

454
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: the years that what was that first place that you mentioned,

455
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: the Manchester Evening News. Yeah, yeah, he's given all kinds

456
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: of quotes that they've picked up in a bunch of

457
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: other places. But the concept that this professor is saying is, let's,

458
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: as you said, Ben, let's look at the potential that

459
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: at least a few of these are homicides. Let's use

460
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: some of the newer criminal behavioral examination techniques that exist

461
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: out there. Look at geographical profiling, which is a very

462
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: popular thing in the true crime world. At least if

463
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: you look at where deaths have occurred, right if you're

464
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: studying a serial killer, and then you can kind of

465
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: map out potentially where that killer exists or works or lives,

466
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 2: or you know, there's a location somewhere in there in

467
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: that map that this killer or this potential suspect would live,

468
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 2: which is really interesting, and just saying let's at least explore.

469
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 3: It, right, no stone left unturned. You know, it's your

470
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 3: ethical responsibility to the victim, to the deceased, to the survivors,

471
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,719
Speaker 3: the family and friends. Jackson goes on to say, you know,

472
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: you don't need a canal killer quote unquote, specifically, the

473
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 3: canals are already and this is from him, already popular

474
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 3: dumping sites for bodies. So someone might commit a homicide

475
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: somewhere else, or someone may for any number of reasons,

476
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 3: feel they need to dispose of a cadaver and they

477
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 3: drive over to the canal and they drop the corpse

478
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 3: in there.

479
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: It's reminiscent of the Atlanta child murders and specifically the

480
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 2: deaths right at the end of that case where bodies

481
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: were dumped into rivers to hide potential evidence that could

482
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: be on those bodies. And you can learn more about

483
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 2: that in the show Atlanta Monster, just to learn about

484
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 2: the case against Wayne Williams, but also just all of

485
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: those deaths and how water was used to potentially cleanse

486
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: those bodies of evidence.

487
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, and others. Commentators over the years looking

488
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: at the Manchester cases have speculated that if an active

489
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 3: serial killer is out there, that individual may be what

490
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 3: is sometimes called, and we don't love this term, sometimes

491
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 3: called a gay slayer, meaning that they are purposely targeting

492
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: gay men or men that they believe to be gay.

493
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 3: And that's one of the theories that's out there. Well.

494
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, another killer, a known killer that's pointed to in

495
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: a lot of these writing that you'll see about this

496
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: case is a man named Dennis Nielsen that I didn't

497
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 2: know much about at all, But this was a killer

498
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: that it's been portrayed, by the way, by somebody. David

499
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: Tennant portrayed this killer, and he was specifically targeting gay men.

500
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: You can check out an ITV series called Desdes to

501
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: Learn about The Sky Biography has a pretty great write

502
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: up on him. But I think it was fifteen people

503
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: that he admitted to killing young gay men.

504
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 3: And we also know, as we explored in our series

505
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 3: on Uncaught serial Killers, killers who are targeting disadvantaged populations

506
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: right or marginal populations often have a higher chance of

507
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 3: succeeding over time, because historically law enforcement has had a

508
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 3: lot of issues and barriers giving due diligence to those cases. Absolutely,

509
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 3: and we know that we know that this theory, the

510
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: idea of a quote unquote gayslayer, is based on the

511
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 3: known sexual orientation of some victims. But I would say

512
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 3: more importantly, it's based on the fact that several paths

513
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 3: along these canals in Manchester are known to be what

514
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 3: we'll call cruising areas, and a cruising areas where you know,

515
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 3: you go to find someone to hook up with basically,

516
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 3: or just go to meet someone for something intimate or romantic.

517
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the same with any club scene anywhere in

518
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: the world. Right this is the place where single people

519
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: will go to hang out and maybe meet somebody that

520
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: they can spend some time with because we're all a

521
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: little bit lonely.

522
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 3: And the idea here for these things, lest we sound

523
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 3: like we're vilifying them, the idea for these kind of

524
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: areas is that someone like everybody, will be consenting to

525
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 3: whatever they get up to. That's the idea, and as

526
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 3: you'll come to find, you don't see this in all

527
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 3: the many documentaries and podcasts that have come out about this.

528
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 3: But later Professor Jackson goes back and attempts to clear

529
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 3: the air, and like so many scholars and academics and

530
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 3: other subject matter experts, he has to go back to

531
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 3: the media and say, hey, you're doing a disservice chasing

532
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: this juicy headline. You're taking what I said out of context,

533
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 3: and now people are panicking. But his attempt at clarification

534
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 3: came far too late. The Internet rumor mill, especially Twitter,

535
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 3: grabbed onto this concept and the theory about hashtag the

536
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 3: pusher spread like wildfire, and wild was spreading. People are

537
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 3: still dying.

538
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

539
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: So the image that is conjured in my head when

540
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: I hear Manchester pusher, I imagine some you know, darkly

541
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: cloaked figure that wanders along the canals searching for a

542
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 2: victim and then literally pushes people into the canal. What

543
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: the professor was talking about here and what he was

544
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: quoted in discussing and wanting to look further at, were

545
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 2: specific cases where somebody was let's say, officially missing for

546
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 2: seven days, ten days, sure, and then they show up

547
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: in the canal. Right, that that makes you understand, Okay,

548
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: he's thinking this person was taken by someone killed and dumped.

549
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 4: Right.

550
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 2: There was an eighteen year old person at one point

551
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 2: that was found in a canal two weeks after he

552
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 2: went missing from a New Year's Eve party, which again

553
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: makes you think, oh wow, two weeks later, missing for

554
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: that long. Something's going on here, and it's not just

555
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: somebody pushing folks into the canal.

556
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And that is I believe we're talking about

557
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 3: Suvic Paul. Yes, yes, yeah, and his father can be

558
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 3: found in multiple documentaries saying look, there are unanswered questions.

559
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 3: Something about the official investigation feels stonewalled, right, or it

560
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 3: feels like maybe a little too quick to glom onto

561
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 3: a theory that makes them look good, you know, and

562
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 3: maybe they're a bit too hesitant to look at other

563
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 3: possibilities because they may put the investigation overall in a

564
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 3: bad light.

565
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 2: Dude, Oh, all right, do you mind if I bring

566
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: up the movie now, because this is what it's making

567
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: me think of.

568
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I've been I've been trying to guess that

569
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 3: I don't know what it was. For some reason, the

570
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 3: vanishing was in my head. But it's not that one.

571
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: Nope, this is one of our mutual favorite movies.

572
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 4: I think, and I think it.

573
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: Would be one of Knowles as well, maybe even a

574
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: favorite movie of our Tennessee Powell.

575
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 4: Hot Fuzz.

576
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 3: That's what I thought about Hot Fuzz.

577
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, now, look, this is a comedy. It's an

578
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 2: action comedy, action packed comedy. But this movie is about

579
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 2: a sleepy little town called Sandford where deaths, multiple deaths

580
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 2: are covered up by the local police because and they're

581
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: called accidents. They're made look as though they are accidents,

582
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: because well Sandford at the time. I don't want to

583
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: give it away too much, but Sanford had its own

584
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: reasons for wanting to make the desk look like accidents.

585
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: So what the crime rate in the village would be

586
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: so low? That's what it makes me think about. Not

587
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: that the police want to cover anything that they're doing up,

588
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 2: but they just don't want a bunch of homicides showing

589
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: up on the record for their.

590
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: Town, right right. The idea of pushing to clear the

591
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 3: cases in a good way. You know. Yeah, that's an

592
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: excellent comparison. I'm surprised and nailed it. Now. I've got

593
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 3: to go rewatch Hot Fuzz because that is a banger film.

594
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: What Manchester needs is a Nicholas Angel.

595
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 3: There we go, there we go. Let's let's lick into

596
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 3: these these deaths. There's a lot of fact, fiction and

597
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 3: confusion surrounding this. Remember how earlier we said Manchester the

598
00:38:55,239 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 3: city is distinct, it's within but distinct from Greater Manchester.

599
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 3: That's what makes this story pretty confusing for a lot

600
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 3: of people. In that earlier interview, the original one Professor

601
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 3: Jackson had with the Daily Star, the journalist site at

602
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,959
Speaker 3: that point, sixty one deaths in canals and waterways documented

603
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 3: from twenty nine to twenty fifteen. They're probably more, unfortunately,

604
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 3: that's how those numbers work. But the stats you were

605
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 3: running into when you're reading about this story, when you

606
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 3: were hearing about this story, when you're checking out Internet chatter,

607
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 3: those stats for the Manchester Pusher are based on Greater Manchester,

608
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 3: not Manchester, the city, Greater Manchester, the county, and Greater

609
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 3: Manchester is hundreds of square miles. This includes towns they

610
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: have nothing to do with the Manchester Pusher, but they

611
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 3: do have canals, they do have waterways, and so what

612
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: you're hearing often is an aggregate reporting of all these

613
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: things happening across a much wider area.

614
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, it's true, and it's a very valid and

615
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: important point. The only counterpoint I have to it in

616
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: saying that it might actually be connected is that I

617
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: go back to the Atlanta child murders, missing and murdered

618
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: there because bodies were dumped in several different counties, like

619
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: right on the edge of a county on well, the

620
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 2: thought at least was that was done purposefully so that

621
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: there would be a jurisdictional issue, right, you know, I

622
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: feel like it's the kind of thing where it needs

623
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 2: to make you think, but it also needs to make

624
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: you not throw anything.

625
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 3: Out exactly one hundred percent with you on that one, Matt,

626
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 3: because we know that there is always a larger context

627
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 3: at play. And again, this is a very highly developed

628
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: part of the world. So it's super easy to rent

629
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 3: a car, you know, it's super easy to drive somewhere.

630
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 3: It's not as though these are impassable boundaries, you know.

631
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: For sure, especially if you're dealing with somebody who is

632
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: dumping bodies rather than murdering people in specific.

633
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 3: Areas exactly, Yeah, crimes of premeditation rather than perhaps crimes

634
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 3: of opportunity, because crimes of opportunity usually meet with inevitable

635
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 3: panic and regret on the part of the assailant. So

636
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 3: if you, you know, think of a robbery gone wrong,

637
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 3: we'll get to that. But that's incredibly plausible and at

638
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 3: every possible juncture in the larger discourse, the GMP, the

639
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 3: Greater Manchester Police, other law enforcement groups, they have argued

640
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 3: this serial killer theory is unsubstantiated, bunk or as you

641
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: put it, rubbish or as Joe Biden would put it, malarkey,

642
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 3: so much so that Jackson got rightly irritated by this.

643
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 3: Can tell We know that he was contacted by the

644
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 3: local law enforcement after he made these statements, these original statements,

645
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: and they said we're going to clarify and correct his information.

646
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 3: We're not sure exactly how that went, but we know

647
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 3: afterward the professor, aside from that retraction, was much more

648
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 3: hesitant to speak about this to the press. And we're

649
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 3: on his side here because his words are being twisted, right,

650
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 3: and he's very concerned about that. He's trying to do

651
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 3: the right thing. We know that one of his colleagues,

652
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: a criminologist named Elizabeth Yardley, also out of Birmingham City.

653
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 3: She did agree to speak with the BBC and she

654
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 3: pointed out some stuff we've talked about before. She's really

655
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: pondering why this pusher theory stays in the public eye

656
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 3: and the zeitgeist despite the consistent and continual objections of

657
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 3: law enforcement. And I know we both saw this. The

658
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 3: first thing she says is there does seem to be

659
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 3: this insatiable appetite for real life serial killers?

660
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. True crime is so popular. And

661
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: if you can turn a series of accidents into a

662
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 2: serial killer story, guess what you can do. You can

663
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 2: sell books and make podcasts and make TV shows and

664
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 2: get stuff on ITV and you know, BBC four or whatever,

665
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 2: and it is just there. It is marketable in a

666
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 2: way that is very different than a series of accidents.

667
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah, there's a through line, there's a narrative arc,

668
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 3: there's something bigger at play, and the human brain loves

669
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 3: a pattern, loves to see a pattern, wants things explained.

670
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 3: And to be completely honest, the family members and friends

671
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: of people who have been discovered dead in these canals,

672
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 3: they deserve an explanation. They deserve that closure. Secondly, and

673
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 3: this is a point again from Yardly, perhaps most importantly,

674
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 3: they're mysteries surrounding these deaths, there are open questions. Multiple

675
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 3: deaths are still considered unsolved as far as the corner

676
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 3: is concerned, which means we know the person is dead,

677
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: but we don't know exactly how they died. And so

678
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 3: long as those cases remain unsolved, speculation is going to thrive.

679
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 3: Add a little spice to that one, to that milange.

680
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 3: We see that there are documented cases of people being

681
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: attacked by the canal. Ah, we'll keep it in. What

682
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 3: I mean is being attacked while they are near the canales,

683
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 3: not by the canals themselves.

684
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: It just created such a wonderful picture in my mind,

685
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 2: as you said.

686
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen like a dangerous canal, maybe like in

687
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 3: a corner somehow smoking a cigarette.

688
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: In my mind, the canal is like a big mouth

689
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,959
Speaker 2: and it opens just a little wider as somebody's riding

690
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 2: their bike across.

691
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 4: Ah, which leads us to a specific case.

692
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is some fuel to the fire. This is

693
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 3: the high octane gas. One of the cases of a

694
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 3: genuine attack, which appears to be a murder attempt, comes

695
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 3: to us from April tenth, twenty eighteen. There's a thirty

696
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 3: four year old man who is unidentified by the press

697
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 3: at this point, and he is attacked. He is on

698
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 3: a bike. He is attacked on his bike. He has

699
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 3: thrown into the Bridgewater Canal. And he said the person

700
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 3: who did this had to be a complete psychopath because

701
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 3: this dude who gets pushed in thrown in, he almost

702
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 3: drowns because he's panicking. His legs are entangled in his

703
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 3: bicycle and as he is trying to get out, he

704
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: raises his hands. He has his hands on the precipice.

705
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 3: He is able to pull himself out. He's coming home

706
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 3: from work, he has not been partying. You know, this

707
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 3: is not like some Christmas dinner event with too much schnapps.

708
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 3: He is going to be able to get out. And

709
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 3: then the person who attacks him, described as a white

710
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 3: male between the age of twenty and forty, kicks him

711
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 3: back into the water.

712
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 4: Yikes.

713
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, terrify.

714
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 2: And this particular assailant was able to get away from

715
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: the scene. And that was that, right, I mean that's

716
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: like there are no leads to chase down some unknown

717
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 2: white male with a very very large age range. Right,

718
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: you can't put out an APB on that guy.

719
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 3: And the description, Yeah, this is this is terrible for

720
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 3: law enforcement and investigators, because the description includes things like

721
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 3: he had a normal haircut.

722
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh oh, that's easy.

723
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 4: Let me let me do a sketch of that.

724
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 3: And you know, we're beyond thankful that this person is alive.

725
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 3: The attacker, as she said matt did, eventually sprint away

726
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 3: from the scene as it's described, and this allowed the

727
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 3: victim to crawl back on land. Another important note, the

728
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 3: attacker was not trying to steal anything, Like he didn't

729
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 3: try to push this guy off his bike and take

730
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 3: his bike. He didn't say, you know, you whip out

731
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 3: a knife for a gun and say give me your

732
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 3: iPhone or whatever. Also another important note, this victim in

733
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 3: particular clearly clearly on the wrong end of an attempted murder.

734
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 3: He does not fit that proposed demographic for the gay

735
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 3: slain theory. We know he's a married father of two.

736
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 3: But again, you know, while we're weighing everything out, did

737
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 3: the attacker know that, yeah, well.

738
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a lot of questions there as well.

739
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:52,919
Speaker 1: This is.

740
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: An unidentified man, both the attacker and the victim, and

741
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 2: we know that people's lives can you know, be complicated,

742
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 2: So there's also like room for maybe there's you know,

743
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: I'm just saying a lot of it is not concrete.

744
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. And I think I agree with you.

745
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 3: That's a really important point. We're not attempting to profile anybody.

746
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 3: We're saying again, you can't leave any stone unturned. You

747
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 3: have a lot that you have to learn. Right, For instance,

748
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 3: was this a crime of opportunity? Was it premeditated? Right?

749
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 3: Did this person decide they were going to hurt someone

750
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 3: and they just picked a target they saw or did

751
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 3: they know? You know, this guy gets off at ten pm,

752
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 3: he goes this way home. I will find him at

753
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 3: Point B you know what I mean. Tough questions, man,

754
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 3: Tough questions, Like you said, The police have yet to

755
00:48:54,920 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 3: identify or arrest the assailant. They again stress that this is,

756
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,919
Speaker 3: in their opinion, an isolated incident. It is not part

757
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 3: of a larger scheme. The police also reject overall the

758
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 3: concept that someone is targeting members of the LGBTQ community.

759
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 3: Other than the fact that they're male, other than the

760
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 3: fact that they've been found in or by water, there's

761
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 3: nothing whatsoever linking these deaths. That's their official conclusion.

762
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 2: That's correct. That's at least what they say let's take

763
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: a quick word from our sponsors and we'll be back

764
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: with more on the Manchester Pusher.

765
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 3: And we have returned, folks. As we've established here, family

766
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 3: members of the deceased tend to not agree with the

767
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 3: explanation or the conclusions of law enforcement they have. Often

768
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 3: family members of the deceased have shared story that seem

769
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 3: to indicate foul play in at least some circumstances. We've

770
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 3: got to go back to the Manchester Evening News. They're

771
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 3: doing great local journalism on this. Journalist John Sheerhoot notes

772
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 3: several accounts from parents, and we talked about a few

773
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 3: of them. But I think maybe to get the human

774
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 3: moment here, you've got to hear what the parents are saying,

775
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 3: because that helps us see the validity in their objections.

776
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, specifically because the parents experienced one thing and

777
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,280
Speaker 2: then when the police begin investigating, they've got hard evidence

778
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 2: for what they can prove and they're going that route,

779
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: but the parents are saying, yeah, but we experienced something different.

780
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 4: Right.

781
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: This is a twenty one year old person who in

782
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: twenty twelve was found in the Manchester Ship Canal. His

783
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 2: name is David Plunkett. His parents their last experience with

784
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 2: him was a phone call where he is quote screaming

785
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 2: and howling about something. But the police, you know, when

786
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,280
Speaker 2: they look at the evidence, when they've got a body

787
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 2: to begin investigating, say oh, this was an accident.

788
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's got to be really damaging and hurtful

789
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 3: to hear as a parent when you're saying, look, I

790
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 3: will give you my phone, right, yes, search the information

791
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 3: of the data here. Our child called us. There was

792
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 3: screaming and howling in the background. That's rough man.

793
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't imagine that's something that occurs once you've

794
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 2: fallen into the water. You don't get your phone and

795
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 2: make a phone call from the water.

796
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. And if you fall into a canal and you

797
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 3: get out and then you call someone, you're probably gonna

798
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 3: mention that on the call. Yeah, I would imagine. Then

799
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 3: we have another case like Nathan Tomlinson who is discovered

800
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 3: in the river irwell, pardon my pronunciation, I R W

801
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 3: E L L. His mother to this day believes the

802
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 3: death is suspicious because her son's coat, phone, wallet, and

803
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 3: believe his passport we're gone. He's reported missing on Christmas.

804
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 3: His body is found two months later, and she is saying,

805
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 3: you know, this could be a robbery gone wrong, right,

806
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:28,959
Speaker 3: which which makes a lot of sense.

807
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's another one of those instances where it

808
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 2: could be absolutely anything. An accident makes it kind of

809
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 2: go away if it is that, right, But if it's

810
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: not that, then this is a lot of police work

811
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,399
Speaker 2: that would have to be done.

812
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 3: Right, right, And we're you know, we're not saying that's

813
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 3: what's happening. We're saying we have to consider that option absolutely.

814
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 3: And I'm doing that because I just had this moment

815
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 3: flash my head where we get a call from like

816
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 3: the chief of the Greater Manchester Police. But I think

817
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 3: we're being very fair.

818
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 4: Guys.

819
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 2: You don't understand this is a lot and I'm just

820
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:15,240
Speaker 2: showing yeah, no, but we don't know the full circumstances

821
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 2: for any of these cases, right, Nobody does, even if

822
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 2: you're following you know, the Manchester Evening News daily, and

823
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 2: even if you go back in time and it's twenty twelve,

824
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen and you're trying to understand what's happening, we

825
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 2: don't know outside of the official investigation that doesn't get leaked.

826
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 2: You don't hear the official details of that stuff, right,

827
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 2: Because there's always the potential that somebody knows details that

828
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 2: nobody else knows if there is an assailant of some form, right,

829
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 2: and if not, if there's no official investigation, then there's

830
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 2: no record of any of the stuff that you might want,

831
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 2: like the cell phone records.

832
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's one of the questions too. Again, this

833
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,439
Speaker 3: is such a heavily surveiled the world. What about cell

834
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 3: phone tracking? What about closed circuit television CCTV. It's everywhere

835
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 3: in the United Kingdom, and this means that it's fairly

836
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 3: common for investigators to find CCTV footage of people who

837
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 3: are later discovered dead in a canal, maybe on the

838
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 3: night of their disappearance, maybe on the night of their

839
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 3: confirmed death.

840
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: It does feel like it does feel like you could

841
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 2: track somebody leaving a bar, right specifically, like those areas

842
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 2: where there would be a pub, there's gonna be cameras

843
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 2: all over there and along the you know, the official

844
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: canal ways, my god, of course, there's cameras all over

845
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 2: the businesses there, and then official ones probably for the

846
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 2: city or for you know, I'm assuming the for the city.

847
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: It feels like you could track somebody's movements all the way.

848
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels like it could be as simple as

849
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 3: person A is walking by you know store B. So

850
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 3: we have the footage of them walking by. They continue

851
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 3: down the street or down the you know, the pathway

852
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 3: along the canal, and there's another shop, nightclub, a venue

853
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 3: or something, even if they're not open, they have security

854
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 3: cameras on. So then you could just sort of trace

855
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 3: it from point to point, from A to Z.

856
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is crazy because you don't. You don't.

857
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 2: We're so used to watching police procedurals and you know,

858
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 2: heavily fictionalized versions of that thing. But there would be

859
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 2: individual officers, probably two, that would have to travel to

860
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 2: a location, get the CCTV footage of that private business,

861
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 2: corroborate that with the you know, public cameras, corroborate that

862
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 2: with the stories and the timelines, then make phone calls

863
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 2: and maybe even take trips to someplace and get all

864
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 2: of that other documentation of like the phone records. And

865
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 2: you just imagine the time involved in a single accidental

866
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 2: death and or homicide, right one victim. That is so

867
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 2: many hours really really, I mean just an effort.

868
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 3: And these folks are often underfunded, right, they often don't

869
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 3: have the resources that they would ideally receive. And add

870
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 3: to this the bureaucracy, because every you're not a criminal,

871
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 3: so every step you bake has to be clean. You

872
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 3: have to get approval for the phone records, you have

873
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 3: to have a little bit of paperwork to get the

874
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 3: television footage, the CCTV footage. That's the reason why your

875
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 3: pals Bet and Mad over here can't just stroll into

876
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 3: a Dave and Busters and try to crack down on them.

877
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

878
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 4: What do you mean?

879
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 3: I mean we can't go to We've got a lot

880
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 3: of juice at David Busters. But you and I cannot

881
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 3: walk in there and say, all right, you know, flash

882
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 3: the inside of the coat and say give us give

883
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 3: us the footage from Thursday.

884
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 2: Oh man, that would be a cool superpower, though.

885
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 3: I bet you and I are nice enough dudes that

886
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 3: I bet we could talk someone into it. We could

887
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,399
Speaker 3: roll for charisma instead of intimidation. I think that would

888
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 3: be our only way.

889
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 4: Oh that's awesome.

890
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 2: Hey, I want to put something here as like an

891
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 2: easter egg that only people who've listened this far in

892
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 2: this episode will ever hear. But maybe one day it'll

893
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 2: be used in investigation. For me, I have cameras all

894
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: over my house because we've been sponsored by camera things

895
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 2: before in the past, and they're all in the outside

896
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: of my house and they run twenty four to seven

897
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 2: if there's any movement. So and the way it functions

898
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 2: with the service, there are thirty days of movements they

899
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: get recorded, so if I ever go missing or anything happens,

900
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 2: there's gonna be thirty days that can be studied by

901
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 2: law enforcement, just to see who came, who went, and all.

902
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 4: That good stuff.

903
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 3: I hope it never comes to that, but it is

904
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 3: smart to have that. Do you have do you have

905
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 3: like an app for it?

906
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 5: There's an app for that smart.

907
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 3: I think that's how most of them work now, and

908
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 3: it really is a good idea. Less we sound paranoid,

909
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 3: it's good to have that kind of monitoring capability for

910
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 3: your own domicile. We're also huge fans of everyone having

911
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 3: cameras on your car. Not to not like a creepy

912
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,959
Speaker 3: insurance thing. Not not so the insurance company can watch

913
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 3: you driving, but something looking out your front windshield, looking

914
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 3: out the rear view uh, so that you don't end

915
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 3: up in a he said, She said, situation.

916
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 4: Of real talk.

917
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 2: Do you have that, because I need I need some

918
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 2: advice on what system to get.

919
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 3: I've got one actually that I am. I got a

920
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 3: new one that I'm putting in that's not not super

921
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 3: duper fancy. I don't want it connected to anything more

922
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 3: than it needs to be connected to just.

923
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 4: Do its thing.

924
00:58:58,240 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 3: I like that.

925
00:58:58,840 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 4: All right, well, let's talk.

926
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 3: We'll talk after, but folks, please, and you know what,

927
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 3: let's open the floor. Fellow conspiracy realist, recommend your your

928
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 3: pick for a car camera. Again, we're not we're not

929
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 3: being sinister or creepy. There is a moment where you

930
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 3: could help other people, right, you might witness an accident

931
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 3: that you're not involved in anyway.

932
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 2: Okay, Tennessee pal just linked us to a mirror dash

933
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 2: cam that has a rear view mirror and smart driving assistant,

934
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 2: all kinds of stuff.

935
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 3: Oh man, all right, thank you?

936
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 5: Cool?

937
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 3: What a mention? What a route of Bega is? So

938
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 3: for with this, that's a weird inside joke for us.

939
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 3: So h this is where we get to one of

940
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 3: the bag of Badger's situations, the real pickle. With all

941
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 3: of this footage and all of this excellent investigation by

942
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:58,919
Speaker 3: law enforcement and by filmmakers right, and by family members too.

943
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:03,959
Speaker 3: No single assailant has been documented or identified as of yet,

944
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 3: meaning the mystery of the canal deaths remain. And we

945
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 3: do want to give a tip of the cap again

946
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 3: to Professor Jackson who as a very brief moment where

947
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 3: I feel like an interviewer is sort of pushing him

948
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 3: on some things, and he notes that it seems there

949
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 3: was one individual questioned, but nothing came of it, no

950
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 3: charges were filed. There is at this point to law enforcement,

951
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 3: there is no such thing as a Manchester pusher. So

952
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 3: we got to go to counter theories. Dave Wilson, head

953
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 3: of the Manchester Water Safety Partnership. He is one of

954
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,439
Speaker 3: the guys that often gets quoted sharing a theory that

955
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 3: we all find unfortunately quite plausible. Alcohol related deaths. A

956
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 3: lot of these occur in or around nightclub areas. Nightclub neighborhoods,

957
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 3: bars and restaurants love the canals. They line the canals.

958
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 3: This is prime real estate. It's a scenic view, you

959
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 3: know what I mean. If you're going to choose between

960
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 3: one place or another, why not go to the place

961
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 3: with a patio and a nice little view of the water.

962
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and if there are other night spots around,

963
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 2: then yeah, people are going to be hanging out walking

964
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 2: and they might show up in your establishment. So absolutely

965
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 2: that's where you put your nightclub. It's just by that,

966
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 2: you know, kind of scary precipice if it goes down

967
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 2: into the water.

968
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and now fast forward, it's a night of partying,

969
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 3: hanging with some loved ones, some old friends. You might

970
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,919
Speaker 3: be celebrating a holiday like New Year's or Christmas. You've

971
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 3: had a lot right of whatever your visive choice is.

972
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 3: You are walking home, maybe unsteadily in the dark. Let's

973
01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 3: say the weather is poorish. It is possible for you

974
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 3: to slip and fall, maybe hit your head. Maybe you're

975
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 3: not able to remove yourself safely. And because this might

976
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 3: happen very late at night, there's no one around to

977
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 3: help you. This is totally possible. But a lot of

978
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 3: family and friends of people who have been found in

979
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 3: the canals, they don't say this is a satisfying explanation.

980
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 3: In fact, some will allege, as we alluded to, a

981
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 3: cover up may be a foot that, like you were saying,

982
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 3: met that police might conspire in some way to downplay

983
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 3: problems or to push for alternative explanations like accidents, suicide,

984
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 3: all isolated cases, partially to save face maybe, and then

985
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 3: partially to quell public panic, because dude, you know this

986
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 3: from all the other research we've done, law enforcement has

987
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 3: to be very very careful about any statement regarding a

988
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 3: possible serial murderer. You can inspire copycat crimes. You will

989
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 3: get tons of very weird fake leads.

990
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: You know.

991
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's that's a major problem. When you know

992
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 2: what you could do. You could just put barriers up

993
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 2: along the whole thing, with cameras along all the barriers.

994
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 2: There you go, problem solved, and you only need one

995
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 2: billion dollars.

996
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 3: Right, one billion pounds, which used to be a lot

997
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 3: of money back back in earlier days. Now it feels

998
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 3: like there's a billionaire around every corner. Also, you make

999
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 3: this excellent point, and it's intensely frustrating. We can only

1000
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 3: imagine to a lot of people, why would you not

1001
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 3: have barriers? What good fences make good neighbors. Robert Frost

1002
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 3: was right about that. There was a petition signed by

1003
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 3: ninety seven thousand people, almost one hundred thousand people to

1004
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 3: get some barriers installed, not even along the entirety of canals,

1005
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 3: but along certain higher trafficked areas, and it makes sense.

1006
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 3: It also just candidly seems like an infrastructure thing that

1007
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 3: should have been done way long ago.

1008
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and that petitions from twenty eighteen. So there's

1009
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 2: spend some time if you're out there in Manchester, because

1010
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 2: we don't have, you know, official imagery of all the

1011
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 2: canal areas if you're not a.

1012
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 3: Dave and Busters. We don't have the reach, not yet.

1013
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,360
Speaker 4: But well maybe there is, what if there.

1014
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 3: Is, Yeah, we have to check. Hey, we'll keep it

1015
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 3: all this in in the United Kingdom, just to check

1016
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 3: the facts are important. There is a Dave Ibusters in London.

1017
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 2: Okay, well we need a Manchester location then we'll be

1018
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 2: able to know just how many barriers have been installed.

1019
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 4: But if you're from there, let us know.

1020
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 3: I was just checking there are arcade sites in Manchester London.

1021
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 2: Oh well, you know there might be tunnel systems.

1022
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 4: We'll have to check.

1023
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 3: We'll have to do some digging and and moving on.

1024
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 3: There is another disturbing possibility. At least some of these

1025
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 3: deaths could be deemed suicide. However, as multiple documentaries point out.

1026
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 3: Now as Vice points out, and some of their articles

1027
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 3: on this. Currently, it's estimated that of people who choose

1028
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 3: to take their own lives a poultry, four percent choose

1029
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 3: to do so by drowning, and drowning is a very

1030
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 3: scary way to go, you know what I mean. So

1031
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 3: it's not as fast nor as dependable as some other methods.

1032
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 3: Often people who are choosing to take their own lives

1033
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 3: may leave a note or some sort of message to

1034
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 3: the world. We're not seeing that happening. Given those facts,

1035
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 3: it's safe for us to conclude that suicide is an

1036
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:53,760
Speaker 3: increasingly implausible explanation. Yeah.

1037
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, something we haven't even talked about is

1038
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 2: how cold it gets in the area, and when it

1039
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 2: does get really cold, some of the canals freeze over,

1040
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 2: and just the dangers that that poses. I didn't even

1041
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 2: consider that until I looked at the image that came

1042
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 2: up when you it's this change dot org petition we

1043
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 2: were talking about, or they're showing part of the canal

1044
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 2: frozen over, but not all of it is. But if

1045
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 2: you fell in in a part that was not frozen over,

1046
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 2: and you were, you know, pushed underneath some of that ice,

1047
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 2: just how horrifying and possibly life ending that would be.

1048
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 3: And you're incapacitated or you're panicking and you're trying to

1049
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 3: find the you know, the entry point where you came

1050
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 3: through that It sounds simple if you're listening in a

1051
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 3: safe place right now, but when you're in the moment,

1052
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 3: it's very easy to panic, and people do die that way. Yeah,

1053
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 3: dark stuff. And there's also the possibility that murders may

1054
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 3: have occurred in isolated incidents, but they might not have

1055
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 3: been intentional murder. It might have been more like what

1056
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 3: we will call manslaughter here in the United States, a

1057
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 3: robbery gone wrong, or even I hate to say this,

1058
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 3: but people can be knuckleheads, even something as stupid as

1059
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 3: a cruel prank. Think about it. You know, I was

1060
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,000
Speaker 3: thinking about this earlier. If we're hanging out, we would

1061
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,439
Speaker 3: never do this because we're not jerks. But if we

1062
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 3: were all hanging out with buddies, you know, it's it's you, Matt,

1063
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 3: it's me, it's Dylan, it's Noel, it's you, fellow conspiracy realist,

1064
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 3: and we're partying or whatever, and we're getting a little rowdy,

1065
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 3: and then someone pushes someone jokingly into a canal and

1066
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 3: then they fall in and stuff goes horribly wrong. How

1067
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 3: many people listening tonight would come forward and say that

1068
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 3: they accidentally killed someone.

1069
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 2: Oh geez, I didn't consider that.

1070
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, because we don't hang out like that. We're

1071
01:07:58,640 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 3: actually really nice people.

1072
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, I'm trying to put myself, you know,

1073
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 2: in my sixteen eighteen year old shoes or something about

1074
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 2: just trying to have a laugh and then something going

1075
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 2: wrong and then your whole life is over.

1076
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 3: If you go to the police, exactly right, it's and

1077
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:18,679
Speaker 3: tell us what you would do, folks, and if you're comfortable,

1078
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 3: tell us what you did do in that situation something

1079
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 3: like that has occurred to you. We hope that is

1080
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 3: not the case, but things do happen. And then we

1081
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:32,680
Speaker 3: also see documentaries. Right. Sometimes these theories will spring up

1082
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 3: in true crime forums and then they'll kind of go

1083
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,840
Speaker 3: away outside of a niche group of people who are

1084
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 3: interested or believe in it. But sometimes they get revived.

1085
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 3: In twenty sixteen, a documentary named Manchester's Serial Killer by

1086
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 3: Darren Lavelle dove into these allegations and then brought the

1087
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 3: story back to the global zeitgeist. They aired it Let's

1088
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:59,600
Speaker 3: see what we say twenty sixteen, and then from what

1089
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 3: I stand A few years later, in twenty eighteen, Channel

1090
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 3: four in the UK airs the documentary again and police

1091
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 3: know that it's going to be aired again, so they

1092
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 3: they try to get in front of controversy and they

1093
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 3: air their own video response on YouTube preemptively, wherein they

1094
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:24,440
Speaker 3: again emphasize they have found no evidence to link the victims,

1095
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 3: let alone support the idea of a serial killer. It

1096
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,320
Speaker 3: doesn't work. Really. It seems like the majority of the

1097
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:35,840
Speaker 3: public is not saying, Okay, they've solved it. I agree,

1098
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 3: they have a lot of questions still.

1099
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:38,280
Speaker 4: Oh for sure.

1100
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 2: You can look at the work of another writer named

1101
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:44,759
Speaker 2: Thomas Sheridan that has been quoted a bunch of times,

1102
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 2: specifically in the Manchester Evening News and Metro dot co

1103
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 2: dot UK. He was, you know, just trying to put

1104
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 2: forward this concept that potentially there's a killer. And this

1105
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 2: is back like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, right around the

1106
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 2: time of that documentary's first airing.

1107
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there are other documentaries that follow. There are

1108
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 3: varying levels of detail. Some are arguing for the killer

1109
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 3: theory pretty hard. Some are just seem to be debunking it,

1110
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 3: you know, And this involves retired detectives like Tony Blockley.

1111
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 3: This all these documentaries also are often made with the

1112
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 3: support and participation of victims, friends and family, So just

1113
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 3: just to be clear, this is often not a matter

1114
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:37,519
Speaker 3: of exploitation. It is people trying to find answers, and

1115
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 3: the mythology continues to grow. We checked in as we

1116
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:44,639
Speaker 3: were coming to record this evening with you folks, and

1117
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 3: right now there are an estimated around eighty six total

1118
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 3: deaths in the Canal that proponents of the pusher theory

1119
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 3: will cite as examples. No one's arguing really that these

1120
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 3: are all due to homicide, or that they're all due

1121
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,400
Speaker 3: to a serial murderer, but a lot of people are

1122
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:06,720
Speaker 3: convinced that some of the deaths are the work of

1123
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 3: a killer. Yeap.

1124
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 2: I've got a quick thing here from the Royal Society

1125
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 2: for the Prevention of Accidents, which again, wow, that's yeah,

1126
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 2: and it sounds very hot fuzz to me.

1127
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 3: That's crazy, what a cool job.

1128
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 2: This is what they state, and this is back in

1129
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:29,880
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen. In January they stated there are around two

1130
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty inland drowning deaths in the United Kingdom

1131
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,640
Speaker 2: each year, So two hundred and sixty each year and

1132
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 2: the rate of deaths is around four times higher in

1133
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 2: areas with a high frequency of rivers and canals. Okay,

1134
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 2: so they're just trying to give some kind of baseline

1135
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 2: for the number of deaths that occur each year.

1136
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 4: And we said before the.

1137
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:56,280
Speaker 2: Sixty one deaths that are kind of lumped in most

1138
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 2: of the time with the Manchester pusher are from twenty

1139
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 2: eight to twenty fourteen, right, So like that's that's quite

1140
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:06,679
Speaker 2: a few deaths, right, But that's also over a bunch

1141
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,600
Speaker 2: of years, and Manchester is one of those places that

1142
01:12:09,640 --> 01:12:12,559
Speaker 2: have that has a high number of canals and rivers.

1143
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 4: So I don't know.

1144
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 2: I guess somebody would have to go through and do

1145
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 2: statistical analysis to know, like is it that much higher

1146
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 2: or is it about the same?

1147
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:24,719
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, once you adjust for the variables, it would

1148
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 3: also be it should you choose to embark upon this endeavor, folks,

1149
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 3: We've got your back. We think it would also be interesting,

1150
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 3: if not critical, to correlate time time of year. Right,

1151
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 3: So are more people dying during the holidays or more

1152
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:45,799
Speaker 3: people dying when the weather is less friendly?

1153
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:49,000
Speaker 4: Yeah? Exactly, I didn't even think I has been. There

1154
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:49,679
Speaker 4: are a couple other.

1155
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 2: Statistics that do kind of They actually go directly to

1156
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:55,799
Speaker 2: the heart of this case. They say around twenty percent

1157
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 2: of drowning deaths involve people falling into waterways, so like

1158
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 2: falling in fifteen percent of those who have died had

1159
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 2: been drinking alcohol at the time that they fell into

1160
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 2: the canal. And they also found that quote, the rate

1161
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 2: of deaths among men is around four times higher than

1162
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 2: women in these cases of drowning.

1163
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 3: I see, yeah, and this yeah, please, this is needful context.

1164
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:24,680
Speaker 3: We'd love to hear your conclusions. Folks. We know that

1165
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:28,840
Speaker 3: right now, multiple deaths in these canals in Greater Manchester

1166
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 3: remain officially unsolved. Police have always maintained a serial killer

1167
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 3: theory is false, and they say that the statements of

1168
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 3: this one scholar, taken out of context, gave rise to

1169
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 3: a massive wave of internet speculation with no real supporting evidence.

1170
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 3: But people want answers more than that. People deserve answers.

1171
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 3: So if you live in the Manchester area, or if

1172
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 3: you've spent time there, we want to hear from you

1173
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:59,599
Speaker 3: in your experience. Do people in the community put any

1174
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:02,479
Speaker 3: creed to this theory? What do you think? Do you

1175
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:06,320
Speaker 3: find it plausible? Do you think it's bunk or do

1176
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 3: you like so many genuinely believe there's something the police

1177
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 3: don't want you to know.

1178
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:18,680
Speaker 2: Are you the Danny Butterman out there, son of Inspector

1179
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:19,919
Speaker 2: Frank Butterman.

1180
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:25,080
Speaker 3: It's a great accent. Well do and folks again, we

1181
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:27,519
Speaker 3: invite you to join us here. We want to share

1182
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 3: your stories and your takes with our fellow listeners. You

1183
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:35,120
Speaker 3: can find us on Instagram, you can find us on YouTube,

1184
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 3: you can find us on x all the places, all

1185
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 3: the nets, and all the ents net nets. We'll keep it.

1186
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 3: We'll keep it. If you don't want to sip the

1187
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:49,240
Speaker 3: social needs, we totally get it. Go ahead and give

1188
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:49,880
Speaker 3: us a phone call.

1189
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 2: Our number is one eight to three three st d

1190
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:57,080
Speaker 2: wyt K. It is a voicemail system. When you call in,

1191
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:59,759
Speaker 2: you've got three minutes. Please give yourself a cool nickname.

1192
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:01,599
Speaker 2: Let us know in the message if we can use

1193
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 2: your name and message on the air. If you've got

1194
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 2: more to say than can fit in that message. Maybe

1195
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:09,200
Speaker 2: you've got links, maybe you've got pictures. Why not send

1196
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:09,880
Speaker 2: us an email.

1197
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,440
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

1198
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:16,400
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet I'm afraid. Sometimes the

1199
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:20,679
Speaker 3: void writes back, Send us the pictures, send us the links,

1200
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:24,200
Speaker 3: Let us know if we need to protect your anonymity.

1201
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:27,759
Speaker 3: Let us know if a message is for the wider

1202
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 3: group of us here on the show, or if it's

1203
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,479
Speaker 3: something that you just want to keep between us. We

1204
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:36,679
Speaker 3: can't wait to hear from you. Step a little further

1205
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 3: from the light, Join us out here in the dark

1206
01:15:39,160 --> 01:16:00,559
Speaker 3: conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1207
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1208
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:07,679
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1209
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:10,639
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.