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Speaker 1: M hm okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for relationship

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Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me for session to the Therapy for

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Speaker 1: Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into the episode after

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Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. It's safe to say that

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Speaker 1: almost all of us wants to feel heard and understood.

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Speaker 1: In order for that to happen, we must utilize effective

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Speaker 1: communication skills. But what does that even sound and look like?

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Speaker 1: How do we know when we're doing a good job

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Speaker 1: communicating our point of view are listening to someone else's.

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Speaker 1: As our methods for communication continue to evolve, so must

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Speaker 1: our skills. Joining us this week to dig more into

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Speaker 1: this topic is Morgan our graves. Morgan is a certified

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Speaker 1: counselor and therapist helping individuals, couples, and entrepreneurs improve their

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Speaker 1: relationships through healthy communication skills. Morgan and I explore the

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Speaker 1: characteristics of good communication, avoiding poor communication habits, and understanding

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Speaker 1: the different communication styles that exist. If something resonates with

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Speaker 1: you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on

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Speaker 1: social media using the hashtag TBG in session or join

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Speaker 1: us over in the sister circles to talk more in

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Speaker 1: depth about the episode. You can join us at community

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Speaker 1: that Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate you taking some time to chat with

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Speaker 1: us today because this is gonna be such an important conversation.

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Speaker 1: I think just around what effective communication looks like, we're people, right,

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Speaker 1: It's often missed, so I'm glad you'll be sharing that

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Speaker 1: with us today. Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited. So when we are thinking about effective communication,

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Speaker 1: what does that even look like like? How would we

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Speaker 1: even know if we're doing a good job in communicating?

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Speaker 1: I think you will know when you feel heard and

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Speaker 1: you feel like you hear the other person. A lot

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Speaker 1: of times in communication, that's the biggest thing. We want

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Speaker 1: to feel like we are heard and that we are understood.

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Speaker 1: And so with that I use a mix approach, So

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Speaker 1: one with the Mago theory where there are three branches

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Speaker 1: where you're mirroring, you are validating, and you're empathizing with

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Speaker 1: the person that you're in conversation with. And so that

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Speaker 1: is the three key pieces when you are effectively communicating.

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Speaker 1: But of course different parts of us respond based off

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Speaker 1: our past experiences. So really honing into do I understand

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Speaker 1: what this person is trying to convey with me? Am

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Speaker 1: I communicating what I intend to convey to the other person?

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Speaker 1: And can we get to a middle ground in finding

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Speaker 1: where we stand with the communication. Yeah, so I would

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Speaker 1: love for you to dig a little deeper into those

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Speaker 1: three things that you share. So you said mirroring, empathizing,

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Speaker 1: and then validating, Yes, so can you tell us what

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Speaker 1: each of those means? Okay, So to start, everybody wants

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Speaker 1: to be heard. When we're not heard, we either push

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Speaker 1: back or we shut down. So a good starting point

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Speaker 1: is just to make sure one you're mirroring. Mirroring is

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Speaker 1: when you are rephrasing, paraphrasing what you heard the other

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Speaker 1: person say, so you're essentially seeking some clarification. Did I

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Speaker 1: hear you correctly? Next you move on to the validation.

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Speaker 1: Even if you don't agree with what you're hearing, What

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Speaker 1: is it that you understand the other person may feel? So,

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Speaker 1: even if you don't agree, what can you understand? And

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Speaker 1: then last empathizing just putting yourself in somebody else's shoes?

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Speaker 1: Got it? And are there different communication styles that exist?

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Speaker 1: There are? However, you may swing between different communication styles

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Speaker 1: based off of your attachment. So you have a primary

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Speaker 1: attachment style within you may go through different frent phases

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Speaker 1: based off of the particular situation or the type of

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Speaker 1: audience you have that leads you to respond in particular

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Speaker 1: attached states. So can you break down attachment styles or

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Speaker 1: maybe anybody who's not familiar with them? Absolutely? So. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: with attachments, we are seeking safety and security and the

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Speaker 1: attachment style is how we view ourselves and others based

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Speaker 1: off of what we have experience. Now, when we grow

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Speaker 1: up and become adults, we have some of these same

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Speaker 1: attachment styles and states that come up for us. And

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Speaker 1: that is just basically how we respond to interpersonal relationships.

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Speaker 1: So what we're thinking about like communication, and we put

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Speaker 1: that together with our attachment styles, that may indicate like

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Speaker 1: how we show up in a conversation or whether we

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Speaker 1: even are going to broach certain topics. Right. So, I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking somebody who maybe has more of an anxious attachment style,

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Speaker 1: it may be less likely for them to go into

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Speaker 1: a conversation that they know might be difficult for the

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Speaker 1: other person. Right, Can you say a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about how our attachment style then shows up in communication? Absolutely? So.

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Speaker 1: The anxious type will actually because they are fearful of

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Speaker 1: being abandoned, they will overcommunicate. They will want to talk

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Speaker 1: and talk and talk and talk about how they're feeling

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Speaker 1: because it's almost like the kid that's squeezing the animals

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Speaker 1: so hard that it's almost like they're choking. The avoidant

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Speaker 1: attachment type will more so shy away from having those conversations.

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Speaker 1: They're like, no, we don't need to touch that at all.

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Speaker 1: It's cool, got it? Okay? So I know, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the first things that we learned as therapists,

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Speaker 1: and this is incredibly important to the work we do,

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Speaker 1: is active listening, right, And so I know that that

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Speaker 1: is also something that is really really important in your

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Speaker 1: own interperson relationships. Can you say a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about active listening, what it is and how we can

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Speaker 1: do a better job of doing it. So, active listening

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Speaker 1: is when you are actually honing into what the other

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Speaker 1: person is saying. You are really listening with the intent

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Speaker 1: to understand rather than with the intent to have a

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Speaker 1: rebuttal And this is so hard, Morgan, because I think

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Speaker 1: most of us we're like, Okay, well, I'm preparing my

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Speaker 1: response right because I want to give them what they want.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of times when we are listening to

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Speaker 1: prepare a response as opposed to listening to what they're saying,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot missed. So how do we slow down

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Speaker 1: the process and make sure that we are actually active listening?

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Speaker 1: What kinds of tips would you share? I would be

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Speaker 1: more curious ask more questions, because when you understand where

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Speaker 1: the meaning behind certain things for people, it one helps

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Speaker 1: you to understand them a little bit better. It allows

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Speaker 1: you to not only take what they're telling you now,

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Speaker 1: but it allows alls you to apply that lesson to

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Speaker 1: other interpersonal situations that you may have with that person.

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Speaker 1: M mmmm, So, Brittany, I would imagine that there are

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Speaker 1: things that get in the way of us having effective communication. Yes,

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Speaker 1: can you talk with me a little bit about what

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Speaker 1: kinds of things destroy our ability to have effective communication

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Speaker 1: with other people? For this, I go to Gottman and

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Speaker 1: what he calls the four horsemen of the apocalypse, and

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Speaker 1: that is typically what gets in the way of us

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Speaker 1: having that basic flow of conversation with the mirroring, the validation,

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Speaker 1: and emphathizing. And that includes the four horsemen criticism, defensiveness, contempt,

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Speaker 1: and then stone walling, and those again may come up

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Speaker 1: because of our past experiences, but there are antidotes to that,

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Speaker 1: and the antidotes that's what I really push as a

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Speaker 1: means to help in your communication. So to combat criticism,

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Speaker 1: you have a gentle startup. How you start a conversation

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Speaker 1: is very indicative of how the conversation will end. So

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Speaker 1: if you start a conversation on ten, more than likely

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Speaker 1: it's going to end on ten or a thousand. So

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Speaker 1: you want to make sure that you're using a gentle startup,

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Speaker 1: and with that you are observing from an objective standpoint,

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Speaker 1: so you are owning your thoughts, your feelings without putting

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Speaker 1: it on anyone else. So those basic I am statements,

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Speaker 1: I feel statements I feel insert emotion about insert situation,

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Speaker 1: and then give a request. Sometimes we feel like we

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have to tell people certain things, Well why not?

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Speaker 1: How are they supposed to know? And then you have defensiveness.

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Speaker 1: The antidelt to defensiveness is going to be taking responsibility.

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Speaker 1: So that's where you are attempting to find any truths

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Speaker 1: and what you hear someone else sharing with you or

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Speaker 1: to you. Next, you're gonna have contempt. And so with contempt,

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Speaker 1: the antidote is building a culture of appreciation and then

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Speaker 1: combining it with what you've already learned with those gentle startups,

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Speaker 1: So owning your thoughts, your feelings, but then also making

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Speaker 1: sure that you are giving appreciations. And then last is

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Speaker 1: stone walling. Stone walling is when we're kind of get

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Speaker 1: flooded with emotions and our thoughts, and sometimes that might

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Speaker 1: look like shutting down. Other times that may look like

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Speaker 1: leaving the situation altogether. But stone walling is when you

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Speaker 1: are no longer present. You might physically be there, but

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Speaker 1: you're not present in that conversation. So being present is

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Speaker 1: also really key and having effective conversations. The antidote to

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Speaker 1: stone walling is going to be self soothing. So that

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Speaker 1: might mean taking a break from the conversation, maybe like

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes, and then coming back to the table and

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Speaker 1: completing the conversation or having a more productive conversation. If

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Speaker 1: you do have to put a pause in the conversation,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't go any longer than forty eight hours, and

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Speaker 1: I would have a time limit. So if you are

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Speaker 1: leaving the conversation, be open with that and saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: can we check back in about twenty minutes, I'll need

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Speaker 1: to think about that, Or maybe you've ran out of

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Speaker 1: time for having that particular conversation, maybe saying hey, how

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Speaker 1: about we connect tomorrow at two o'clock. That lets someone

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Speaker 1: feel heard. So not that we are going to just

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Speaker 1: completely forget about the conversation, but we are kind of

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Speaker 1: going to put a pen in it. And having a

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Speaker 1: set time to come back to the conversation allows both

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Speaker 1: of you all to feel that you aren't neglected or abandoned.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for them, Morgan. Something else that will often

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Speaker 1: get in the way of effective communication is some body

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Speaker 1: behaving passive aggressively. Now, does passive aggressiveness fall under one

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Speaker 1: of the four horsemen that you have identified or is

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Speaker 1: that something different passive aggressive? I think that would fall

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Speaker 1: under contempt in a lot of ways, but it does

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Speaker 1: depend on the intent behind it. So if you're being

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Speaker 1: passive aggressive because you're starting to feel defensive, that's one thing.

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Speaker 1: So it's technically, depending on how it's done, can fall

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Speaker 1: under any of the four horsemen. So how will we

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Speaker 1: know if we are being passive aggressive? Or there if

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Speaker 1: anythings that black women say that could be in this

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Speaker 1: category of passive aggressiveness, like oh, we are about to

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Speaker 1: go down a road that might not actually be effective

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Speaker 1: communication because I think we hear that term thrown out,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know that everybody really knows. What does

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Speaker 1: passive aggression even look like? The one that comes to

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Speaker 1: the top of my head the quick is this when

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Speaker 1: someone were to say nothing mm, so you're saying nothing

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Speaker 1: is wrong with you, but your body language and your

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Speaker 1: tone is suggesting that something is very much so wrong

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Speaker 1: with you, And a more assertive way to share that

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Speaker 1: would be to say something is going on with me

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Speaker 1: right now, I don't care to talk about it. When

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Speaker 1: I'm ready to talk about it, I will come to

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Speaker 1: you and let you know. You know, as we're talking

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Speaker 1: about that, Morgan, It's making me wonder why so often

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Speaker 1: many of us do respond with nothing instead of actually

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Speaker 1: seeing what's wrong in the beginning, Like, can you talk

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Speaker 1: through maybe what leads us to lead with nothing when

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Speaker 1: it is very obvious that something is wrong. I think

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Speaker 1: that's from our households of origin. So depending on what

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Speaker 1: we were taught to communicate or how to communicate, that

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Speaker 1: is one thing, but then also avoidance. We don't want

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Speaker 1: to have more conflict. If it seems like, feels like

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Speaker 1: looks like it might lead to conflict, we just want

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Speaker 1: to shy away from it, or we feel as though,

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Speaker 1: well it's not gonna help for me to talk about it,

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Speaker 1: So why am I even going to talk about it? More?

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Speaker 1: From my conversation with Morgan after the break. So you

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Speaker 1: mentioned already our facial features are the way we're kind

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Speaker 1: of contorting our face in our body language indicates something's

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Speaker 1: going on. Can you talk about like the importance of

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Speaker 1: facial gestures and like nonverbal communication as a part of

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Speaker 1: effective communication. Absolutely, because it can be confusing to hear

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Speaker 1: one thing but then see another. And so I think

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Speaker 1: that with communicating a lot comes back around to self

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Speaker 1: awareness and knowing what's going on with you. A lot

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Speaker 1: of times will feel it in our bodies when we

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Speaker 1: are having a particular emotional response, So our heart rate

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Speaker 1: may increase, or we may feel like something that's kind

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Speaker 1: of thinking in our stomachs and so being aware of that.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes, especially with black women, we have like the

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Speaker 1: resting space, we feel like we can't really get around that,

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Speaker 1: or when we are assertively communicating, sometimes it can come

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Speaker 1: off as oh, well, this is you know, the mad

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Speaker 1: black woman, where it's like, no, I am voicing my opinion.

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Speaker 1: And so I think it's important to recognize that your

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Speaker 1: voice matters, and it's important while also making sure that

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Speaker 1: you are in complete alignment with yourself. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that that's important to kind of thing through

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Speaker 1: because a lot of times when black women are accused

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Speaker 1: of being angry, sometimes we are angry, right, and there

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Speaker 1: probably is a reason why we are angry. But I

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Speaker 1: think what often happens is that we get into trying

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Speaker 1: to like modify our voice, or we do a lot

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Speaker 1: of like contortions to try to like make the message

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Speaker 1: easier for other people, when really they may not hear

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Speaker 1: it no matter how soft our voices because they're just

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Speaker 1: kind of determined to see us in one way. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: So I'm thinking, you know, when you started talking about

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Speaker 1: we noticed the sinking in our stomach. Are we have

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Speaker 1: a headache all of a sudden or we feel shaky?

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, like what it looks like in therapy to

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Speaker 1: be working through some of these effective communication things. So

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Speaker 1: like what kinds of things would you do with an

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Speaker 1: individual client who came to you and said that they

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Speaker 1: were having trouble speaking of for themselves at work or

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Speaker 1: having trouble communicating things in other areas of their relationship.

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Speaker 1: What kinds of things might you do with them in therapy.

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Speaker 1: So for the external piece of it, sometimes I will

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Speaker 1: have my clients to write out what are their thoughts,

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Speaker 1: so that that is there, we can honor every part

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Speaker 1: of what we're thinking, our thoughts, and then depending on

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Speaker 1: the audience, what is useful information, what helps you get

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Speaker 1: to your end goal, and what's for you to process.

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Speaker 1: So externally, that's one express eyes that I do. And

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Speaker 1: then internally there's a lot of questions pertaining to like

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Speaker 1: their internal journey. So when they have a response or

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Speaker 1: when they didn't like what was said, it's like, what's

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Speaker 1: going on with that? What happened there? For you? What

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Speaker 1: did it remind you of? Where did your mind go

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Speaker 1: when you heard this particular message? And then also as

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Speaker 1: the speaker, what happened that got you kind of stumped?

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Speaker 1: How far could you go? And when you got to

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Speaker 1: your obstacle? What happened there? The cat's got your tongue?

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Speaker 1: Why they're what was going on? So do you typically

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Speaker 1: do like a lot of role playing with clients, Like

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Speaker 1: if they are preparing to make some big ask at

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Speaker 1: work or something like that, would you maybe do a

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Speaker 1: lot of role playing with them. I do a lot

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Speaker 1: of role playing, and I use a lot of the

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Speaker 1: information that they have given me based on their perception

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Speaker 1: of the other person, so that it's more so that

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Speaker 1: in vivo experience, because really embodying the picture that they

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Speaker 1: have created of that person. So whether it's mom, or

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Speaker 1: whether it's dad or a manager at work or husband,

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Speaker 1: I really embody that so they can really sink into

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Speaker 1: that feeling. And then again, you know, part of things

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Speaker 1: in therapy is getting to the point where you feel

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Speaker 1: like I do have the resources to take on this conversation.

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Speaker 1: I can do this, and so that's kind of just

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Speaker 1: putting them in the mindset of here's this image, as

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Speaker 1: scary as it might seem, but then also reminding them

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Speaker 1: that they have the tools the resources to get through

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Speaker 1: the conversation. So what's the balance there, Morgan, Because as

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Speaker 1: you said that, I'm thinking a lot of times, what

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Speaker 1: happens when we know we have to have maybe a

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Speaker 1: difficult conversation is that we try to do this role

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Speaker 1: playing like Okay, I'm gonna say this, and then they're

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Speaker 1: gonna say this, and I think sometimes we get caught

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Speaker 1: up because of course we don't know perfectly what the

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Speaker 1: other person is gonna say. So what's the balance of

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Speaker 1: doing some of this role playing but not doing too

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Speaker 1: much where you get caught up in a script that's

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Speaker 1: probably not going to play out in real life. For me,

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Speaker 1: I explore worst case scenario and then I explore best

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Speaker 1: case scenarios, so that anything else that happens falls between

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Speaker 1: the range. So if they can handle worst case scenario,

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Speaker 1: then they can handle anything better than worst case scenario.

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Speaker 1: And have you noticed that there are particular techniques or

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Speaker 1: things that clients benefit from more than others. As you're

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Speaker 1: talking about doing some of this in therapy. I think

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Speaker 1: that the role playing is more beneficial for clients because

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Speaker 1: sometimes they do get in that cycle that you were

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Speaker 1: referring to of it's kind of like going over scenarios

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Speaker 1: and one scenario turns into another scenario and it's just

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Speaker 1: a bunch of what else. And so with the role

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Speaker 1: playing is one experience or a couple of experiences, but

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Speaker 1: it is a stopping point for them. I also encourage

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Speaker 1: my client to give themselves a time period for worry,

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Speaker 1: so maybe a lot in twenty minutes for certain situations

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Speaker 1: that cause them to go into that anxious spiral, and

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Speaker 1: then after that you gotta put the worried aside, basically exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So we know that one of the common things that

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Speaker 1: couples come into counseling with, even if this is not

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Speaker 1: ultimately the issue, but a lot of couples present to

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Speaker 1: therapy saying we have communication problems, right, so I would

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Speaker 1: love for you to help us unpack what is typically

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Speaker 1: underneath those communication problems, and if it is actually communication,

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Speaker 1: what are some of the common things that come up

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Speaker 1: with couples who are coming to therapy for communication problems.

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Speaker 1: What's underneath would include childhood wounds, so experiences starting from childhood,

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Speaker 1: but then also seeking that safety and security to be

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Speaker 1: their authentic sales, but kind of a little bit worried

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Speaker 1: that it's either going to call as conflict or it's

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Speaker 1: going to cause abandonment. I just want to stop you

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Speaker 1: because you've mentioned this before in this conversation around like

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Speaker 1: we are so afraid of conflict. What what is the

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Speaker 1: real fear when people have a fear of conflict? Like,

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Speaker 1: what are people typically afraid is going to happen? Abandonment?

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Speaker 1: They're gonna get left or they're gonna be rejected in

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Speaker 1: some type of way. And again typically that comes from

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Speaker 1: their childhood wounds. So how they were raised in the

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Speaker 1: foundation of their safety and security. Because of course, when

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Speaker 1: you're in your childhood you form these notions again of

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Speaker 1: yourself and of other people. And if the world is

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Speaker 1: not a safe place, then how can I be my

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Speaker 1: authentic self? How can I tell you how I really

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Speaker 1: feel and it be okay? So you got that the

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Speaker 1: childhood feelings, You've got betrayals that happened, so again in

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Speaker 1: different ways that the relationships safety and security has been challenge.

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Speaker 1: So when you don't feel completely safe with your partner,

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Speaker 1: either because of past experiences and other relationships or because

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Speaker 1: of betrayals in your current relationship. That impacts communication. And

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Speaker 1: I think that a lot of people test out the

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Speaker 1: waters a lot, and then if they don't get the

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Speaker 1: response when they test out the waters, then they kind

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Speaker 1: of retreat rather than going more so into that curiosity

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Speaker 1: of what was that about. So I think being curious

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Speaker 1: is a really strong component. Being curious not only of

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Speaker 1: the other person but of yourself, and then accepting the

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Speaker 1: wide gamut of emotions that we as humans experience, knowing

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Speaker 1: that it won't always be pleasant. But the unpleasant emotions

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Speaker 1: or immediate outcomes may not feel great, but in the

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Speaker 1: long run, they really helped to build certain bonds. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that curiosity is a really important word because

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Speaker 1: in most relationships, if this is somebody who cares about

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Speaker 1: you right now, we're not talking about people who just

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Speaker 1: have malicious intent, but in a caring relationship, when you're curious,

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Speaker 1: you realize that like anything that may have struck you

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Speaker 1: in a hurtful way or like oh that didn't quite

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Speaker 1: sit right, it isn't necessarily that the person was being malicious,

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Speaker 1: but it has activated something right. So can we have

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Speaker 1: space in our relationship to be curious, Like you mentioned

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Speaker 1: about what just happened there, So what did you say

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Speaker 1: and what did I hear? And then what was tender

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Speaker 1: for me? Right? Like what really got activated for me

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Speaker 1: when I heard you say that thing? And like you said,

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Speaker 1: it can tend to bring relationships or couples or whatever

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Speaker 1: the dynamic is closer together because now we've gone a

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Speaker 1: little deeper into with at the foundation of our relationship

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Speaker 1: with one another exactly. And then that also intimacy mm hmmmmmmm. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Morgan after the break. So,

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Speaker 1: I have a couple of scenarios that I would like

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Speaker 1: for you to like share a little bit more about.

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Speaker 1: So I'm gonna give you a couple of partnership dynamics,

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Speaker 1: and I want you to highlight maybe one of the

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Speaker 1: common communication struggles that you see come up in these dynamics.

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Speaker 1: So we've already talked about a little bit, But the

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Speaker 1: first one is, what about in a romantic partnership, what's

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Speaker 1: one of the most common communication struggles that come up

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Speaker 1: and what can people do to kind of manage it?

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Speaker 1: The hardest ones are maybe so more so those that

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Speaker 1: surround sex, like being honest about their sex life. Sex

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Speaker 1: is a difficult conversation, especially if the other partner starts

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Speaker 1: to feel that they just are not able to please

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Speaker 1: their partner. What I do suggest is what's called a

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Speaker 1: state of the union, and that is just a weekly

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Speaker 1: time where you set aside with your partner about an

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Speaker 1: hour to talk about what's working, what's not working. You're

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Speaker 1: giving appreciations, and then you are addressing any lingering conflict

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Speaker 1: from the week, and then you're able to put out

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Speaker 1: a request like what do you need in order to

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Speaker 1: feel more love? What do you need for me this week?

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Speaker 1: And so it just kind of breaks it down into

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Speaker 1: shorter mouth stones. So we're checking in often. It's a

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Speaker 1: time that you can expect to have this conversation, so

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Speaker 1: you're not completely caught off guard, and you know that

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Speaker 1: both of you all are coming without being armed, so

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Speaker 1: to speak, because you're expecting to have this conversation and

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Speaker 1: both of you all understand the intent of the conversation

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Speaker 1: is to really check in on where are we and

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Speaker 1: come in with the understanding that we're both going to

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Speaker 1: be honest about what comes up during this meeting. I

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Speaker 1: like that it does feel like putting a framework and

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Speaker 1: some boundaries around that help you to enter it from

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Speaker 1: a more or less defensive space. Yes, yeah, okay, what

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Speaker 1: about whether business or a creative partner, what's a common

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Speaker 1: communication issue that might come up and what can we

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Speaker 1: do about it? So with that, I would suggest the

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Speaker 1: art of compromise where basically you all are both able

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Speaker 1: to explore what's important for you, so where you're flexible

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Speaker 1: and where you're not flexible, and then for the areas

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Speaker 1: where you're not flexible, having a conversation of what the

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Speaker 1: meaning is behind it and why that is such a

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Speaker 1: rigid area for you. M m yeah, because the y

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Speaker 1: can be important, right, And then based off of that,

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Speaker 1: find a middle ground so that you can get to

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Speaker 1: a resolution. And with about with a friend, I think

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Speaker 1: it's really important with friends to remember that you became

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Speaker 1: friends for a reason, you're connecting with them for a reason.

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Speaker 1: And so with friendships, I dare you to say this

433
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: that or the third, I dare you to express yourself

434
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: in the way that you've been wanting to because a

435
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: lot of times with friendships, what you'll find out is

436
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: the people that are indeed your friends and care about

437
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: you they'll be there regardless, even if that means like

438
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: I need a moment from you, I need a moment

439
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: I don't like what was said, but you know that

440
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: they're going to be there for you. And so it

441
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: just gives information to inform your relationship. So what kind

442
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: of work can we do to identify what's actually working

443
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: and being effective in terms of our communication. Is there

444
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: some kind of audit or stuff when we can do

445
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: periodically to kind of see, like, okay, what's happening with communication?

446
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: I think that can be a conversation in and of itself.

447
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: There's not necessarily like a paper pencil audit that you

448
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: can really do, but you can essentially do like a

449
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: survey how am I doing with communication? In the midst

450
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: of conversations, you can ask what is it that you

451
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: are hearing me say so that you can make sure

452
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: that your communication is clear and clarify where you need

453
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: to clarify. And then if you're in a roman Antick

454
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: relationship and you choose to do the state of the

455
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: Union meeting, that can be something that you address during

456
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: that time. So just checking in, checking in with yourself,

457
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 1: and utilizing feedback from other people who are in your circle.

458
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: So something that comes up often, especially with women, is

459
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: this fear of like starting conversations because they don't want

460
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: to be rude or I don't want to be harsh.

461
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: What kinds of things would you say for people for

462
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: whom that is a s trouble? Is there a way

463
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: to have a difficult conversation without being rude or harsh?

464
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: I think that's the interpretation. A lot of times in session,

465
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: when my clients think that they're being mean, rude, or harsh,

466
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: it's like, no, you're just saying what you need to say,

467
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: and that's okay. And so I think it's how we

468
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: define rude, mean, or harsh. But if we're sharing something

469
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: that's unpleasant, just because you're speaking your mind doesn't mean

470
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: that it's rude. Yeah. Again, I appreciate you sharing like

471
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: the interpretation, because what may feel a rude or harsh

472
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: to me may not feel at all rude or harsh

473
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: to you, right, And so much of our interpreting how

474
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: this person is gonna take it, Like you mentioned, like,

475
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: there are conversations that have to be head even if

476
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: they may be difficult. So being courageous in that regard

477
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: just going ahead and having the conversation to start with. Right, So,

478
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: are there things Morgan about, like depression or anxiety that

479
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: impact the way that we might communicate. Absolutely, with anxiety,

480
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: you may recognize that you could be more irritable, and

481
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: so maybe what you're trying to communicate doesn't come out

482
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: as effective. And again that goes back to being aware

483
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: of what you're going through and then taking some responsibility

484
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: acknowledging I am irritable right now and this may not

485
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: be the best time for me to have this conversation,

486
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: or noticing that you are in a depressive episode or

487
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: you're really anxious, and so going back to your coping

488
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: skills that help you sell suit. M hmmm. So something

489
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: else that comes up often is people cutting other people off, right,

490
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: So you notice this happen sometimes in meetings, and it

491
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: does feel like sometimes, especially if you're in like a

492
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: mixed gender kind of situation, like women tend to be

493
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: cut off more or you know, like people take space

494
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: from women in meetings. So what kinds of tips would

495
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: you offer to people who kind of are often getting

496
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: cut off? Or there are things that we can do

497
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: to like to let people know that we are not

498
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: done speaking. Yes, So when you are speaking and someone interrupts,

499
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: I think it's okay for you to go ahead and

500
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: say if I could just finish my thoughts and I'll

501
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: get back to your comment, So you could also recognize

502
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: that a comment is being made, but also recognize that

503
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: you have not finished your statement as well. For some people,

504
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: they would continue to complete their thought even though someone

505
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: else is speaking as well. So if I am talking

506
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: and someone is interrupting me, rather than taking a second

507
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: and say just give me a quick second to finish

508
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: my thought, they might talk louder. Hey I'm still talking,

509
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: But that's more of an aggressive way of doing it.

510
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: So just acknowledging let me just finish this statement and

511
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: I will address that in just a second, or I'll

512
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: get there, just get one second. So just acknowledging both

513
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: sides of it. So something else, Morgan. We know that

514
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: like the advent of technology, and like there are so

515
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: many opportunities for digital communication now, so emails, direct messages, whatsap,

516
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: like all of these different things I love to hear

517
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: from you about, like the difficulties with communication that maybe

518
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: have popped up with all the advances in digital communication,

519
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: and like what kinds of things should we be aware

520
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: of when we're trying to communicate digitally. When you see

521
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: it's going left, that should be an indication that this

522
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: may be a conversation that we need to have either

523
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: on the phone or face to face. A lot of times,

524
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: going back to that avoidance, people struggle with having face

525
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: to as conversations, Like they may go and separate rooms

526
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: and then they're texting one another and then the text

527
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: goes left because you are putting your own interpretation of

528
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: someone's tone and facial expressions. And you know, when you

529
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: read text messages, you kind of read it in the

530
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: voice of someone else, at least I do. So when

531
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: you are starting to get off track with the conversation

532
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: or when it it's no longer serving you to use

533
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: the written format, go ahead and end the conversation with

534
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: the time that you can actually talk about the situation.

535
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 1: That's similar to in business, if you continue to go

536
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: back and forth via email, Uh, let's pick up the

537
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: phone so we can tie up loose ends if you

538
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: have more questions, like because maybe this is not as

539
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: clear in this format, got it. So there's some conversations

540
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: that you just should not even approach unless you actually

541
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: have time to like talk on the phone or do

542
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: like a FaceTime or in person conversation. Yes, I feel

543
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: like the harder conversations that cause any emotional charge, those

544
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: are the ones that require more feedback, So more of

545
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: a dialogue, more of a back forth. Those conversations need

546
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: to happen face to face or over the phone verbally.

547
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: Got it. There's been lots of conversations online about you

548
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: know you need to have like a conversation with like

549
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: your best friend or your partner, but you don't have

550
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: time to have that conversation now, And so I do

551
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: understand like getting a text that says we need to

552
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: talk or like I want to talk when we get

553
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: home can leave people spinning right like, oh my gosh,

554
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: what is this? So what would be the best way

555
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: to communicate There's something you want to talk about, but

556
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: that maybe you don't have time to talk right now

557
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: unless you give a segue into what you want the

558
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: conversation to be about. Hey, I've been thinking about meal prepping.

559
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: I want to sit down and discuss that with you.

560
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: Give a little insight into what you want to talk,

561
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: insight into you know what you want to talk about.

562
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 1: But otherwise, sometimes when you get that text message like

563
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: I want to talk. You have to then go back

564
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: to what's making me react right now? What's going on

565
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: with me in this moment? Right? Got it? Well? Thank

566
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: you for that, Morgan. So are there any resources that

567
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: you could share for people who want to like take

568
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: their communication to the next level or dig a little

569
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: deeper into some of the things that you've shared today.

570
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: I like the Gottman Card Deck is an app that

571
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: you can utilize. It gives like different scenarios and different questions,

572
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: helps you with reframing some things that you may want

573
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: to talk about. And then also the Attachment Theory Workbook

574
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: by any Chen. I think that's really great with discovering

575
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: what your attachment style is and then she gets very

576
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 1: practical exercises to help explore your attachment, but then also

577
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: how that attachment works with your partner's attachment. And when

578
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: I say partner, it could be your romantic partner, it

579
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: could be a friend, anyone that's in close relation to you.

580
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: Got it? Thank you for that? And where can we

581
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: follow your work and stay connected? What's your website as

582
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: well as any social handles you'd like to share? Yes,

583
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: I am Royal Phoenix L S. Dot com that is

584
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: my website, and then Instagram I am Royal Underscore Phoenix

585
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: l S and then on Facebook I am Royal Phoenix

586
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: l S Perfect and will be sure to include all

587
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: of that in the show notes. Well, thank you so

588
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: much for chatting with us today, Morgan, I really appreciate it.

589
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad

590
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: Morgan was able to share her ex che's with us today.

591
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: To learn more about her and her practice, be sure

592
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: to visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls

593
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 1: dot com slash session to forty seven, and be sure

594
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: to text two of your girls this episode right now.

595
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, be

596
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for

597
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want

598
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic or just be in

599
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: community with other sisters, come on over and join us

600
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the

601
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: Internet designed just for black women. You can join us

602
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. This

603
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: episode was produced by Freda Lucas and Elise Ellis and

604
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all

605
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look

606
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: forward to continue in this conversation with you all real soon.

607
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:48,959
Speaker 1: Take get care,