1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Hello, all thoughts listeners. So you were about to listen 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: to an episode that we recorded back in April when 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: there was a lot of news around trade and tariffs, 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: so you might hear us reference that quite heavily. It's 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: a very interesting episode and I think you'll enjoy it. 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Take a listen. 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,639 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Authoughts podcast. 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. 10 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: Joe, do you remember when you were a kid, presumably 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: you went on road trips like across America? Do you 13 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: remember how filthy cars used to get on road trips 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: because of like hitting millions and thousands of insects? 15 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 4: Do you remember this? I thought you were going to 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 4: say how how filthy cars get inside as a kid, 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 4: and I was like, my car is filtering inside. 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 3: It's disgusting. 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 4: But I do remember that, and I you know, they're 20 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 4: like weird things like people like you know, like insects 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 4: and like people have talked about how like this is 22 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 4: like one of those mysteries. It's kind of like chemtrails. 23 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 4: Why did car windshields get filthy? 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 5: Yeah? 25 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 4: I didn't know this was ever going to become an 26 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 4: odd lots topic, so I'm pleasantly surprised. 27 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: Well, I have a lot of thoughts on this. So 28 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: one the buggiest place I ever used to visit was 29 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: in Arkansas with my Grandma in the summer, and I 30 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: remember like the car just being like disgusting, not only 31 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: because of insects, but because there are also a lot 32 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: of armadillos there, and armadillo's I don't know if you 33 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: know this, but when they're frightened, they jump up, so 34 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: they tend to get caught in like truck girls. Anyway, 35 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: this is probably too much information, but I also I 36 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: tried to read a book on insects once and the 37 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: lack thereof in today's natural world, I guess, and it 38 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: was called The Insect Crisis. And it's one of the 39 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: few books that I had to stop reading after like 40 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: three chapters because I just found it too depressing. 41 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 3: By the way, I just want to say, ay, I 42 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 3: liked it. 43 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 4: Whenever this episode is getting released, we're recording this April 44 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 4: twenty fourth. I appreciate a break from like or not 45 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 4: talking about stuffs every second. Two You mentioned armadillo's. It 46 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 4: reminds me of the famous sort of left wing Texas 47 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 4: populist Jim Hide Tower wrote a book There's Nothing in 48 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 4: the Middle of the Road but Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos, 49 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 4: a work of political subversion. So thank you for reminding 50 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 4: me of that book. And I agree read that. 51 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 3: I don't remember the other thing I was going to say, 52 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 3: so keep going. 53 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, anyway, you know, I'm starting on a depressing topic, 54 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: which is there has been this notable decline in insects 55 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: over the past couple decades. And if you talk to 56 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: old people like us, Joe and me, we will say 57 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: that there is a notable lack of insects just when 58 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: you're out and about and you know, driving on highways 59 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: or whatever. But all of that said, this isn't a 60 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: doom and gloom episode because we're actually going to be 61 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: talking about some interesting efforts to kind of arrest that decline. 62 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: And you know, Joe and I, we've taken an interest 63 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: in biotechnology. It's recently, especially in the context of the 64 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: US versus China, but human biotech is not the only 65 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: thing out there. There is a pretty big industry around 66 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: animal and insect biotech, and I know nothing about it. 67 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 1: Pretty much and I find it very interesting and we 68 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: should talk about it. 69 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 4: We should and also look, pets and animals are a 70 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 4: huge industry, and so for when it comes to biotech, 71 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 4: non human animals are huge. And of course the other 72 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 4: context besides the US versus China and biotech is of 73 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 4: course the cutting or the gutting some would say, of 74 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 4: sort of core research from the federal government level. So 75 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 4: this intersects with industrial and political trends. And so even 76 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 4: though it's not a terriff episode, I'm looking forward to. 77 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: Well not just that. So you know, one of the 78 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: foremost examples of insects species that has been in decline 79 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: is honeybees, of course, and those are constantly in the news, 80 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: the lack of honey bees. And we all know if 81 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: we don't have as many honey bees, well then we 82 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: don't have as much honey, But we also don't have 83 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: as much other types of foods because they are very 84 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: important pollinators. 85 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 5: You know. 86 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 4: I just one last thing for me. When I was 87 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 4: in college, I lived in a vegan co op at 88 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 4: the university. 89 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 5: Do you have a bee hive? No? 90 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 4: But I had this business idea, Oh, we should have 91 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 4: hand pollinated produce and sell it to grocery stories as saying, 92 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 4: this is the only true vegan produce you can have 93 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 4: because we don't even use bees in the process. I 94 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 4: never did it, but I thought that'd be a good business. 95 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: Oh my god, have you ever hand pollinated something? No, 96 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: it's fun. 97 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 3: Oh, so you can do it. 98 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you got like a little like feather, little rag, 99 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: and you sort of spread the pollen around while doing 100 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: your best like biz impression. You have to be in 101 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: the mindset of a bee. 102 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 4: If I were back at you know, twenty two years old, 103 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 4: I'd make a big radical stand about only eating hand 104 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 4: pollinated produce. 105 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: Don't make the bees work. 106 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's cruel. 107 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, Clearly we could talk about bees and 108 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: insects and armadillers for probably another hour or so, but 109 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: why don't we get straight to us. We have the 110 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with, a net Kleiser. 111 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: She is the CEO over at Dallen Animal Health, which 112 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: has been doing some really really interesting things in the 113 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: field of animal biotech. So, Annett, thank you so much 114 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: for coming on our thoughts. 115 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure 116 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 5: to be here. 117 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to talk about something other than the 118 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: tariffs for a start, and I do like talking about 119 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: the natural world. But like, first off, why don't we 120 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: just kind of add some context to where we are. 121 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: Why is animal biotech an important field to be investing in. 122 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 5: Well, a lot of of what we depend on in 123 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 5: food and agriculture. You've talked about pets. Of course they are, 124 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 5: you know, companions, they're very very important to us. But 125 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 5: a lot of what we eat depends on animals. So 126 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 5: not just the typical production animals that we think about, 127 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 5: which you know, the cows or chickens, but also you 128 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 5: know fish or shrimp. And then one of the the 129 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 5: most important workhourses probably that we have, is the honeybee. 130 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 5: Because our most nutritious foods wouldn't grow, wouldn't exist if 131 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 5: it wasn't for these little animals that buzz around and 132 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 5: pollinate them, or apples, and it's actually the most nutritious 133 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 5: foods that we have wouldn't exist, whether it's almonds or 134 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 5: pumpkins or onions. So they are extremely important and we 135 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 5: need to protect all of these animals, not just our 136 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 5: companion animals, but also these really important production animals, livestock, 137 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 5: everything that falls in it, and so biotech has a 138 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 5: big role to play, not just on the human side, 139 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 5: but also on the animal side. 140 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 4: What do you tell us what DULLN Animal Health does 141 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 4: in your role there and give us some background about 142 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 4: your work. 143 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 5: Specifically, Yeah, happy to do so. So down on animal 144 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 5: Health focuses on these animals. We're a biotech company. We're 145 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 5: about six and a half years old, so we're relatively 146 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 5: young still, but we focus on what we called underserved animals, 147 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 5: which are primarily insects invertebrates, and we developed the world's 148 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 5: first vaccine for honeybees to protect them from diseases. They 149 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 5: get diseases, they get sick just like any other animals, 150 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 5: just like we do. They get viral infections, they get 151 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 5: bacteria infections. And despite the fact that they are so 152 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 5: important for our survival and so not just food production 153 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 5: but biodiversity. You had mentioned that the whole insect decline 154 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 5: are extremely, extremely important in a bigger picture, there is 155 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 5: nothing or there was nothing out there to really help 156 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 5: them fend off diseases. And so we decided to set 157 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 5: out and change that and decide, you know, these animals 158 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 5: they need they need protection, they need our care and 159 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 5: we can't just complain about the insects. We also need 160 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 5: to we need to protect them, and so that's what 161 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 5: we do. 162 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: I have so many questions already, but perhaps my biggest 163 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: one is how does a honeybee vaccination actually work? Because 164 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: I imagine you're not all going out there with tiny 165 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: little syringes and inoculating millions of bees, which would kind 166 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: of defeat the purpose of having all these pollinators do 167 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: our work for us. How does it work? 168 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, we want to be kind to them, we want 169 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 5: to be careful, and you had you know, because some 170 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 5: of us are older. And when I was a child, 171 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 5: I remember how the nurse came to school and gave 172 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 5: us a sugar cube with the polio vaccine on it. 173 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 5: And this is very similar. The queen gets a sugar 174 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 5: paste to eat in her early stages before she gets 175 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 5: introduced into the new colony, and we just mix the vaccine. 176 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 5: It's an aural vaccine, it's a liquid. We mix it 177 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 5: into that sugar paste and she takes it up biting 178 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 5: in a nutshell. 179 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,119 Speaker 1: And then she spreads it I guess to her offspring. 180 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 4: Right. 181 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 5: So insects have this interesting phenomenon that the maternal animal 182 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 5: passes on information about a disease that is in the 183 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 5: environment to the next generation, and the queen does this 184 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 5: via the eggs, so she there isn't disease in the hive. 185 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 5: There are pathogens in the hives, she can't get sick. 186 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 5: A lot of these these diseases are infant diseases, their 187 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 5: larval diseases, so they threaten the brood just when they 188 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 5: when they emerge from the egg. And so the queen 189 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 5: takes these passogens up and passes little pieces of it 190 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 5: to her ovaries, and the developing larvae will see this 191 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 5: piece of a pathogen and say, oh, there's something out there. 192 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 5: They mean system gets upregulated and before they hatch, and 193 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 5: they are protected when they hatch. And this is a 194 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 5: mechanism that is widely a scene in insects and invertebrates 195 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 5: and actually also in chickens and other animals. And so 196 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 5: what we do is just use that naturally occurring phenomenon 197 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 5: and the way we only have to vaccinate the queen. 198 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 5: Expose the queen to a dead bacteria that can't infect anything, 199 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 5: and the next generation is protected. It's pretty clever little 200 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 5: magic wand that you you know, put over the hive. 201 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,719 Speaker 4: So within the field of animal biotech or even more 202 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 4: specifically rare animal biotech, or even more specifically B vaccine biotech, 203 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 4: I can imagine multiple different areas of what you'd call 204 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 4: business or value add creation. So there's the raw science 205 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 4: of like what does the molecular structure of a B 206 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 4: vaccine look like? Then I would agen there is the 207 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 4: challenge of turning raw science into something product tized that 208 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 4: can be distributed and sold at a profit. And then 209 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 4: there's the actual sort of distribution of it. So going 210 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 4: out to the actual customers, here's a product that exists. 211 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 4: Where does your company sit specifically, how much is it 212 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 4: at the raw science level, and how much is it 213 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 4: the productization of raw science, all of it. 214 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 5: I'm laughing. You don't see me laughing, but I'm laughing 215 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 5: because that was actually what we were faced with when 216 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 5: we decided to do this company. This was very early 217 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 5: academic research at the University of Helsinki when I by 218 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 5: accident stumbled across it. The university had brought me in 219 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 5: to look at their life science portfolio to see if 220 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 5: there's this company that could be spun out, if technology 221 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 5: a pattern that could be licensed to an existing company. 222 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 5: And typically when you do this, you know, you see 223 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 5: a lot of really interesting research. I mean, universities are full, 224 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 5: it's just amazing, amazing research. But you know often is 225 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 5: there are incremental, small, you know, improvements that are really 226 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 5: important to move us forward, but they're really these completely 227 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 5: out of the box idea this way. And so I 228 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 5: stumbled the research. Happened to be in the office at 229 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 5: the university when I was there, and the director called 230 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 5: her in and said, you know, Daia, why don't you 231 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 5: tell these folks about your idea for a B vaccine? 232 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 5: And I just got really intrigued, because you know, somebody 233 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 5: needed to do something. I told myself and you know, 234 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 5: this is. 235 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 4: Your CSO founding Cso I'm looking at your website, Dahlia 236 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 4: Fried talk. 237 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 5: Tech right, And so she's a professor at the University 238 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 5: of Gratz who was at Helsinkie and now she's in Gratz. 239 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 5: And so this was really early research, very early data 240 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 5: showing that this might be possible. The company then had 241 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 5: to start completely from scratch to find a strain to 242 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 5: go out and you know, infected hives, build a string connection, 243 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 5: go to the regulator. There was no regulatory pass, there 244 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 5: was no development pass. How do you conduct clinical tries? 245 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 5: Nobody had ever done this before, so there was the 246 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 5: whole development of the product that could then go out 247 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 5: into the market. And then there was no model of 248 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 5: how There were no channe. I mean, if you if 249 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 5: you develop a new shoe, you go to a shoe 250 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 5: store and that's where you sell the shoe. For a 251 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 5: B vaccine, there was that didn't exist. So there was 252 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 5: no discharge. 253 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: No, there's no B clinics out there. 254 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 4: There's no retailer on Fifth Avenue or you get your 255 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 4: insect vaccines. 256 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 3: There's no channel. 257 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 5: If your beehive is sick, you're not going to call 258 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 5: a vetinarian. And they were carrying the hive into the 259 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 5: veterinary clinics, like can you look at my queen? You 260 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 5: know right? That doesn't you call your neighbor, You call 261 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 5: you know, your father or your grandfather that had bees. 262 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 5: So it's a complete Even these large beekeepers and in 263 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 5: the US, when we're talking large beekeepers, they have seventy 264 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 5: one hundred thousand, one hundred and twenty thousand colonies. Wow, 265 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 5: these massive operations that are pollinating our crop during this 266 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 5: our apples you know, the beautiful apples that you get, 267 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 5: you know, the bit whole foods, and it's like they 268 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 5: need these big beekeepers, these big producers. But still there 269 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 5: is no veterinarian that comes by. There is no you know, 270 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 5: so it didn't exist. So we have we are creating. 271 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 5: Everything done basically is writing the playbook on how do 272 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 5: they develop these products, how do you get them licensed, 273 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 5: how do you commercialize them, how do you roll it out? 274 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 5: How do you work with the industry, and not just 275 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 5: with the industry, with state veterinarians with it's much bigger, 276 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 5: and these are these are global problems. I was talking 277 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 5: to one state government veterinarian in Europe who was then 278 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 5: asking me, well, we don't now really know what to 279 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 5: do here. What's the opinion of the World Health Organization? 280 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 5: And I say, you must be kidding me. You' say 281 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 5: the World House. But let me call them, you know, 282 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 5: let me pick up my phone and figure out what 283 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 5: they have to say about this. So really what we 284 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 5: had to do is the whole from bench to customer 285 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 5: and with the customer. It's exciting when you have an 286 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 5: opportunity to do that and to figure it out. 287 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: I have so many questions about this, not just the 288 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: regulatory portion of this and the commercialization, but specifically to 289 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: begin with on the funding side, So you're doing something 290 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: relatively new, and I imagined if you go to a 291 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: traditional venture capitalist or a traditional investor in biotech and 292 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: you say I have a b vaccine, I'm sure some 293 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: of them are very excited because it's novel and it 294 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: sounds kind of cool. But on the other hand, it 295 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: is this kind of brand new thing, and I could 296 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: see some people being a little bit surprised. What are 297 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: those conversations like when you're first trying to raise funding? 298 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 5: Right, So it has changed a lot over the last 299 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 5: six years, thankfully, but in the beginning when I set out, 300 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 5: it was really clear we did not fit any investment 301 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 5: themes so well, not animal health because even though bees 302 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 5: are classified as livestock, they are not. You know, it's 303 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 5: the pets, it's the companion animals, which the biggest, but 304 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 5: then the traditional ones the cows and the chickens, but 305 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 5: not bees. That just falls outside animal health investment. On 306 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 5: the agaculture side, most architect investors will look at microbiomes 307 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 5: of trees, drones, surveillance, more position agaculture technology driven AI 308 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 5: those themes, and then you have the food tech investors, 309 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 5: which are further upstream. Right, they look at the honey, 310 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 5: but they don't look where the honey came from. So 311 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 5: we fell into this complete Noman's land there was in 312 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 5: food tech. There were a couple of investors that at 313 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 5: the time a lot of money was going into alternative 314 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 5: protein production to lower you know, to be more sustainable, 315 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 5: a lower CEO two impact and meet meats right, the 316 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 5: meal worms and and and grasshoppers for animal feed and 317 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 5: human food production. They were really interested in this because 318 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 5: they said, well, we had a complete blind spot that 319 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 5: these animals could get sick too, but vaccines was not 320 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 5: in their in their target so they couldn't invest in us. 321 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 5: So there was literally nobody that so it was it 322 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 5: was in the beginning, it was heavily angel funded because angels, Yes, 323 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 5: they want to make money. These are rich individuals that 324 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 5: that want to make you know, money with their investments, 325 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 5: but they also they are driven by by they want 326 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 5: to do you know, good in the world with with 327 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 5: their wealth. So the return expectations are and their timeframe 328 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 5: is a little bit different, and so they they really 329 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 5: backed this. So we were entirely entirely angel funded, and 330 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 5: then a lot of globally so not very few US 331 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 5: actually European Canadian growers that came from the agricultural space, 332 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 5: from the animal health space, but not vcs. And it 333 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 5: was in twenty twenty two, I don't you might remember 334 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 5: when the market went down. It was a cosible clime 335 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 5: for everyone, especially startups. Was in a few weeks. All 336 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 5: the discussions that I had and fundraising, you know, people 337 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 5: were jumping off left and right, and somebody asked me 338 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 5: to speak at a climate and space conference, and I said, 339 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 5: Climate and space. But when you're raising money, you take 340 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 5: every opportunity you can to spread the word. So I 341 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 5: went and there were these amazing talks about you know, 342 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 5: refueling stations in space and you know, hotels and you know, 343 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 5: whatever you have and these batteries and everything. And then 344 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 5: I came with my with my b vaccine and telling 345 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 5: the audience that this is great that you know, because 346 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 5: of climate change, we have to go to other planets 347 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 5: and we have to be prepared for this. But in 348 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 5: the meantime, we really need to solve this problem because 349 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 5: we're never going to be able to solve it here 350 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 5: on this planet. Or any other planet. If we don't 351 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 5: protect insects, we may not like them, but they are 352 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 5: incredibly important for human survival, plant survival, all living organisms 353 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 5: need these little you know, we can do wetland restoration, 354 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 5: it doesn't matter if we don't have insects to live 355 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 5: in them. And sure enough, at the end of the night, 356 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 5: I was approached by several climate investors we sees sustainability 357 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 5: in climate that understood the importance of what we were 358 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 5: doing and had more flexible investment themes and a longer 359 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 5: term and I was able to get funding. And so 360 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 5: now a lot of the investors of we're talking to 361 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 5: come from that space. 362 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 4: I think this is so fascinating because something that's come 363 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 4: up in the podcast before in various contexts, is this 364 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 4: idea that like, you know, we think of like this 365 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 4: wall of capital out there that exists and it's seeking return. Well, 366 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 4: whether it's banks, whether it's vcs, whether it's private credit firms, 367 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 4: et cetera. There is specialization and there are categories of things. 368 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 4: And we talk a lot about this, particularly more often 369 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 4: in the context of certain energy texts. They sometimes they 370 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 4: call it the missing middle, this idea that there are 371 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 4: theoretically profitable investments out there, but it's just not in 372 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 4: anyone's specific wheelhouse. 373 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: And no one is in charge of the B vaccine. 374 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 5: Yeah you know. 375 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's like not something that someone has specialized. 376 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 4: And so even the theoretically profitable on some time horizon 377 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 4: investment doesn't happen because there isn't that I guess domain 378 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 4: knowledge or very specific domain knowledge. Where are you today 379 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 4: in terms of both funding but also in productization and distribution? 380 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 5: Right? And I think there is one really important aspect 381 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 5: to it. I believe one of the reasons why they is, 382 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 5: you know, you have the specialization and you have these 383 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 5: I mean investors are they are willing to take risks, 384 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 5: Banks are willing to take risks, but there is still 385 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 5: going to be an assessment of return. And as of return, 386 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 5: you can only do if you know the market, if 387 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 5: you have understanding of how the market works. How to 388 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 5: go to market strategy is who's going to pay for it? 389 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 5: If you are developing a product that the world hasn't 390 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 5: seen before, how are you going to price it? Well, 391 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 5: you know, it's a total crystal ball that's in front 392 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 5: of you, and invest is are managing other people's money, right, 393 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 5: you know, it's a they can't you know, it's it's 394 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 5: a it's a huge turtle to make the argument. We 395 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 5: believe that, you know, somebody is going to pay X 396 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 5: for this novel product because you know, if you go 397 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 5: out and do market research and we've done that and 398 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 5: ask if there was a vaccine, how much would you pay? Right, 399 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 5: an investor expects you to do that, and but people 400 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 5: have no concept. This is like if you go out, 401 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 5: you know, would you pay a thousand dollars for one iPhone? 402 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,239 Speaker 5: And you've never seen it, are you? And so you 403 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 5: have to really get push hard as quickly as possible, 404 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 5: get the product out. You know, most biotech products take 405 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 5: ten fifteen years and millions of dollars. We had to 406 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 5: do this in rapid time to get there with total 407 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 5: focus and show that the market that there is a need, 408 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 5: that we're solving a problem that actually exists, and that 409 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 5: people are willing to buy it because the problem is 410 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 5: so large. So we are we completed our first year 411 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 5: of commercialization, first full season. These animals are seasonal animals. 412 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 5: They hibernate over the winter and then the almond pollination 413 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 5: kicks off the new season, which just happened in California, 414 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 5: so we had a lot of beekeepers interested in it. 415 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 5: We had initial sales, we did a lot of you know, 416 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 5: this is high touch. You have to know these people. 417 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 5: They have to learn we weren't, you know, a known 418 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 5: little company and the first product. Who are these people? 419 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 5: So we had to overcome this. And so now the 420 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 5: second year, the season just barely started and we already 421 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 5: have like five times as many purchase orders we had 422 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 5: the same time last year, many more customers. I think 423 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 5: there was another five to six time increase in customer 424 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 5: that come to us. Now people are coming to us, 425 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 5: they've heard about it. So there's a lot of you know, 426 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 5: in in agriculture, you know, if your likelihood depends on it, 427 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 5: you won't just purchase a new product and apply it 428 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 5: in your entire operation, right, you will shut it out 429 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 5: in you know, one percent now, in a couple of hives, 430 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 5: maybe one hundred hives. Then the next year you say, okay, okay, 431 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 5: this is fine, I'm going to test it in twenty 432 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 5: percent of my operation. And then at some point when 433 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 5: once you see that it's really it really turns the 434 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 5: corner for you. Then it's when you place when you 435 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 5: when you adopted one hundred percent, either you're going to 436 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 5: adopt it or you're not going to adopt it. And 437 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 5: so that is what we are seeing that the customers 438 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 5: that are with the returning customers that as larger orders 439 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 5: with customers coming. So it's going really in a right direction. 440 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 5: I mean, this is a licensed product, is an animal vaccine, 441 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 5: it's not a supplement. So it's we can tell people 442 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 5: it is working preventing you know, American foul root. But 443 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 5: it's a journey, it's a real journey. 444 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: So the B vaccine is not the only thing you've 445 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: been working on. You're also working on a shrimp vaccine, which, 446 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: as far as I understand, it operates on similar principles. 447 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: Would you anticipate that the development and the funding and 448 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: the commercialization of a shrimp vaccine, would that be easier 449 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: now that you've done the B vaccine or is it 450 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: still the case that you know, shrimps in aquaculture are 451 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: completely different to bees operating in commercial hives or in agriculture. 452 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 5: Actually, the reason why weich so, yes, it's going to 453 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 5: be easier. It is easier. So investors that we're talking 454 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 5: to now, because you know the market in bees. Nobody understands, 455 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 5: you know, what are the losses? You know, how many 456 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 5: millions is this? Actually? What's the impact on you know, 457 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 5: losing three hives? That what are the real you know, 458 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 5: solid numbers are much more difficult to get to trimp industry. 459 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 5: We know that they are four to seven billion dollars 460 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 5: of losses due to disease every single year. These are 461 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 5: staggering numbers. One disease wide spot can be a billion 462 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 5: dollars in losses a year. This is very well documented. 463 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 5: We know it's a forty three of the six billion 464 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 5: dollar industry because the market is much better known because 465 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 5: people have tried to develop prophylactic solutions, try to develop vaccines. 466 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 5: There is in the last last fifteen years the emaging. 467 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: Wait, what's a sorry, what's a prophylactic solution to white 468 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: spot and shrimp? 469 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 5: Oh? Vaccine that you give to prevent it a disease, 470 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 5: so that you know, make sure you don't get sick 471 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 5: before the disease, rather than treating once the disease. 472 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: Okay, I had a slightly different image in my mind, 473 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: but go on. 474 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 5: So, yeah, so it's much better understood. People have tried 475 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 5: to develop it. There are many approaches through better feed, 476 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 5: through better genetics of the shrimp that are more disease resistant. 477 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 5: So there's a lot of money flowing into this area 478 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 5: and the market is much better and this, and so 479 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 5: you can do price calculations much more easily, and the 480 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 5: return on investment and are the you know, most of 481 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 5: the big animal health companies are looking at this space. 482 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 5: They might already be in aquaculture with salmon or telapia 483 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 5: with other species and might want to expand into this. 484 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 5: And then the big feed companies, whether it's it's you know, 485 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 5: they're they're a bunch of them that sell into that 486 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 5: industry and understand it very well and investors, then it 487 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 5: makes it much easier for investors to assess the risk profile. 488 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 4: What is the stata you know, either for your company 489 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,239 Speaker 4: directly or the peers that you talk to when you 490 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 4: go to industry conferences and such. You know, we've talked 491 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 4: about it a little bit on this show, the sort 492 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 4: of cutback in funding for pure science, which is obviously 493 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 4: the precursor to having a company. As you said, your 494 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 4: co founder had been working on this in a lab 495 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 4: in Helsinki. Can you give us a little bit of 496 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 4: the landscape of like what you see happening on the 497 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 4: pure science front and how it compares to Europe and 498 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 4: if you have any visibility into it, what's. 499 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 3: Happening in China. But again, I don't know if. 500 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 4: That's something that you have is but I'm sure you 501 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 4: have at least US and Europe visibility into the science 502 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 4: funding landscape. 503 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 5: Right from a company perspective, we so far have not 504 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 5: relied on any government money to support science. They are 505 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 5: a lot of you know, sbion and it's all these 506 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 5: grand mechanisms that out there to fund science, in product 507 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 5: directed science, and we've stayed away for it from from 508 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 5: a number of reasons because it's, you know, you can 509 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 5: get political, and you're always, you know, wherever the wind blows, 510 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 5: and we just don't want to get distracted with this. 511 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 5: They are very, very very lucrative funding mechanism in Europe 512 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 5: where the European Union backs innovation, and it appears to 513 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 5: be why they're very competitive. It's billions of dollars that 514 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 5: are dedicated towards that and a lot of and I 515 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 5: think that's probably where a lot of research is going 516 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 5: to go. I would think if this continues the lack 517 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 5: of resources available to universities in this country. We have 518 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 5: to see how this plays out. But from a company perspective, 519 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 5: I think from a regulatory environment or from the ease 520 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 5: of accessing capital from private markets, I would think US 521 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 5: is still leading this regardless independent on what happens. Of course, 522 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 5: do we feel it in discussions with investors, the uncertainty 523 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 5: in the economic climate. Before, like twenty twenty two, the 524 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 5: investor would ask, if you had more money, you know, 525 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 5: can you accelerate? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that question doesn't 526 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 5: come that often and with the. 527 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 4: Risk the US capital markets are still the best in 528 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 4: the world, but they're not trying to basically stuff your pockets. 529 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 3: Full of money the way they were a couple of 530 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 3: years ago. 531 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 5: That's correct, they're a little bit more. You know, how 532 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 5: is this going to play out? I think everybody is 533 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 5: in a in a you know, holding, but there's definitely 534 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 5: money out there to be deployed. 535 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 3: Got it. 536 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: So it strikes me that what we've been talking about 537 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: obviously very creative solutions to ongoing problems. And you know, 538 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: people might be aware of the decline of honeybees, but 539 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: perhaps they're not as aware of the problem of white 540 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: spot in commercially farmed shrimp, how do you go about 541 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: actually selecting your next targets. 542 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 5: It was a decision based on what do we know 543 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 5: the most problematic diseases from the economic impact, and we 544 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 5: know that we knew that our approach of vaccination of 545 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 5: the queen is effective against a number of diseases when 546 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 5: we tested in the lab and when we see how 547 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 5: the vaccine performs in the field. That we said, okay, 548 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 5: what are the biggest bacterial and viral diseases for shrimp globally, 549 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 5: whether whether this is in Southeast Asia, whether it's in 550 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 5: you know, an Ecuador, in China, what are the biggest problems? 551 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 5: And that's where white spot just really is at the top. 552 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 5: And then early immortality syndrome there they're on the bacteria side. 553 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 5: But white spot is definitely the disease that can wipe 554 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 5: out an operation when it hits a farm. When it 555 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 5: hits in three to seven days, the entire shrimp are 556 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 5: dead and it's rapid and you lose an entire haut 557 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 5: so for a farmer, and typically you can't clean up, 558 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 5: you know, so right now, for bacterial diseases, farmers still 559 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 5: use antibiotics because they don't have anything else, you know, chemicals, 560 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 5: all kinds of treatments when they see that something is happening. 561 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 5: But when white spot happens, it's very, very difficult to 562 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 5: clean up the ponds. You pretty much have to abandon 563 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 5: them and then find a new spot and make new ponds. 564 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 5: And that impact on the environment. You know, Shrimp is 565 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 5: one of the most neutrine rich lean protein that can 566 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 5: be grown at large scale. It is consumed at you know, 567 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 5: bigg amounts around the world, and it could be the 568 00:34:53,560 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 5: most sustainably grown protein. It's not. It's not because of 569 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 5: the chemicals that are needed, because of the mangroves that 570 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 5: have to be cut down, because of the other impacts, 571 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 5: because we don't have vaccines to prevent that from happening. 572 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 5: And that's why we, you know, we need more shrimp. 573 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 5: We picked shrimp also because it is so and it's 574 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 5: such an important protein and growing. The consumption worldwide is growing, 575 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 5: and it's relatively cost effective to produce, but the impact 576 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 5: is just devastating. And rather than saying, okay, let's get 577 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 5: rid of all the shrimp product, that's not a solution, right, 578 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 5: We have to just what we did with chickens or 579 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 5: cows or honey bees make them healthier so that the 580 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 5: impact on the environment is reduced. And of course the 581 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 5: shrimp don't die, you know in the pond. 582 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so they can survive the industrialized scale at 583 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: which we seem to form them nowadays. But that was 584 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: so interesting, and I love a chance to talk about 585 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 1: honeybean vaccines and shrimp vaccines. So thank you so much 586 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: for coming on all thoughts. 587 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 5: Well, thank you for having me. There's a pleasure, Joe. 588 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: I just find this particular area of biotech just really 589 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: interesting and also more and more relevant. Right, it seems 590 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: like there's no doubt that there's increased pressure on our 591 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: food supply and we're having to be more creative in 592 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: figuring out ways to feed everyone all the things that 593 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: people seem to want to eat, and usually that means commercialized, 594 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: industrialized farming, right, And a lot of those conditions for 595 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: animals are not great, as we discussed in our chicken series, 596 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: and so finding ways of keeping them healthier so that 597 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: they can survive and preferably even thrive in some of 598 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: those environments, although I'm guessing that's a long shot, but 599 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: they can survive and actually become food and satisfy people's needs. 600 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: That seems more important than ever. 601 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 4: While we were recording this, Tracy I bead me and 602 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 4: she says she hates shrimp. I like shrimp a lot. 603 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 4: I want I could eat a lot of shrimp. You know, 604 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 4: I thought that was fascinating. You know, the sort of 605 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 4: investing under extreme uncertainty. You know, we should have on 606 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 4: the podcast again sometime is We talked to him, remember 607 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 4: Bill Janeway oh CC, and he talks about like he's 608 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 4: a venture capitalist and he's also an economist, and he 609 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 4: talks about like basically, you know, investing under and this 610 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 4: is when under extreme uncertainty. And this is extreme extreme 611 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 4: uncertainty because it's actual life science. As she said, you 612 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 4: have no way of pricing it stakes. You don't know 613 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 4: the market size, you don't know what they're going to pay, 614 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 4: you don't have a distribution channel because it's not a 615 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 4: veterinary medicine where the veterinarians are kind of service sales people, 616 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 4: et cetera. So how you go about pricing that and 617 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 4: how you go about from sort of lab to company 618 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 4: and make that initial step and then there's it's not 619 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 4: really falls in anyone's category. It's to me just such 620 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 4: a fascinating economics question. 621 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And the one other thing I want to put 622 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: in here this is a call to action for listeners. 623 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: But I've been wanting to do an episode on gender 624 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: selection technologies and agriculture for a long time. So you know, 625 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: there's a huge amount of waste if you're breeding something 626 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,959 Speaker 1: like cattle or chickens, because you don't want a bunch 627 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: of roosters if you're trying to farm eggs, or you 628 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: don't want a bunch of bulls if you're trying to 629 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: produce milk. And I know there are companies working on 630 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: this particular technology. I don't know the name specifically. I 631 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: don't know if we can get them to come on 632 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: the show, but if anyone has any connections to them, 633 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: please let them know that we want to talk. 634 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 3: Tracy. 635 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 4: I'm going to bring this back to World War two 636 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 4: history real quickly. This is my other takeaway of reading 637 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 4: about the history of war. 638 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 3: The male are very expendable, is it like, right? 639 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 4: Like countries lose millions of men and continue to operate, 640 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 4: and so it's similar to animals in that respect. 641 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say anything. Shall we leave it there? 642 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 3: Let's leave it there. 643 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,439 Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the Authots podcast. I'm 644 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 645 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 4: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 646 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,240 Speaker 4: Follow our guest Annett Kleiser. She's at Annette Kleiser. Follow 647 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 4: our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carman armand dash Ol Bennett 648 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 4: at Dashbot and Kale Brooks at Kalebrooks. For more odd 649 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 4: Lots content, go to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots. 650 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 4: We have all of our episodes in a daily newsletter, 651 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 4: and you can chat about all of these topics twenty 652 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 4: four to seven in our discord Discord dot gg slash 653 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 4: od Lots. 654 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: And if you enjoy odd Lots, if you like it 655 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: when Joe brings up how expendable the males of the 656 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: species actually are, then please leave us a positive review 657 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are 658 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our 659 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is 660 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: find the Bloomberg channel on Apple podcast and follow the 661 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: instructions there. Thanks for listening