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Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely

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Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. He

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything, all right, very roll, that's roll. So

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Speaker 1: just to be uh, just to recap real quick somewhere,

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Speaker 1: just talking about a minute ago, a guy finds a

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Speaker 1: dead mountain lion. But he's not just a guy. No,

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Speaker 1: he's like a lion biologist. The reason he finds this lion.

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Speaker 1: So he wasn't just a guy, No, he was. He

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Speaker 1: was saying he wasn't just a guy, but I didn't

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Speaker 1: know to what extent he wasn't just a guy. You know,

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Speaker 1: he was the guy that got the message that the

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Speaker 1: collar on the lion was showing was showing dead. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's why I'm glad I brought it back

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Speaker 1: up because I've been ruminating on it. Yeah, okay, it

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Speaker 1: was collar. Because I'm like, line, is a dead lion,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't happen. Okay, that's not going to just happen.

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Speaker 1: Well it could, I mean yeah, probably not very unlikely.

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Speaker 1: So he's a lion guy, his lion. He gets a debt,

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Speaker 1: a mortality signal from an immobile collar. Okay, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: we should we should preface what we're saying right now

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Speaker 1: by stating explicitly that we have not like revisited this story.

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Speaker 1: We've just been kind of bs and about it for

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Speaker 1: the last few minutes. So no, we haven't the specific like,

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Speaker 1: we haven't pulled up the there's a peer of view

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Speaker 1: journal article and we can post that when when we

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Speaker 1: present this material. Well we'll make that that link to that,

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Speaker 1: so folks can can then you know, get the facts

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Speaker 1: absolutely straight. But the the general story here is there's

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Speaker 1: a lion proce. You're listening to the buttery tones of

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Speaker 1: of Carl melcol Dr Carl, thanks for the intro. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so the story goes that this researcher and you know,

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Speaker 1: we should also say we're not trying to make light

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Speaker 1: of this situation. This is a tragic story. It's a

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Speaker 1: tragic story. Yes, we've been chatting over dinner, but it's

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Speaker 1: also become it's it's also become a public tale. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we've been we've been discussing over dinner the topic

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Speaker 1: of zonotic disease. We've been going through the laundry list

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Speaker 1: of all the lawns, were laying it all out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we also explained dinner. Well, I would like to hear

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Speaker 1: you and Yanni explained dinner because I would like to

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Speaker 1: get your perspectives on what we just experience. Hold tight

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Speaker 1: on the guy with the deadline, which is a worthwhile tale.

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Speaker 1: And uh Carl and his work UM has had occasion

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Speaker 1: to go to China and work on wildlife issues in China,

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Speaker 1: and in China he eats all manner of things and UH.

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Speaker 1: One of the ones that he decided a little bit

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Speaker 1: of technology he decided to take home with him was

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Speaker 1: a dish called ogaga, which translates into English hot pop

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Speaker 1: pepper pots. That's totally different South American dish pepper pot

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Speaker 1: hot pope walk wa. So he makes, Carl makes He's

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Speaker 1: got a camp stove out on his brand new deck,

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Speaker 1: which he did a wonderful job building, and UM on

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Speaker 1: his camp so he's got double burner camp stove, and

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Speaker 1: on each burner he's got a very peppery broth full

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Speaker 1: of all kinds of peppers and and uh aromatics, um

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Speaker 1: Chinese flavors. And then he cut he had frozen and

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Speaker 1: then right at the moment of thaw that it becomes

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Speaker 1: conducive to nice uniform thin slices, sliced, a bunch of

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Speaker 1: el mule deer, turkey heart, turkey gizzard, wally, prong horn heart,

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Speaker 1: prong horn heart, several fun guy, you know, crazy mushrooms.

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Speaker 1: You had some good MUSHes and then you get back

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Speaker 1: joy right up, flat out green leaf, loose leaf, lettuce,

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Speaker 1: and uh, then you get these little things ripping and

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Speaker 1: everyone just sits around. I got a fondue party, dipping

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Speaker 1: hunks of meat and guts into Wait, do those organs

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Speaker 1: constitute guts? When I think of guts, I don't think

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Speaker 1: a heart. I guess gizzard. Yeah, gizard's gut. I'll give

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Speaker 1: you that. I think of it as a gut, all right,

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Speaker 1: So dip it into that, and my god, is that

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Speaker 1: ship good man? The key is, don't let it? Don't

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Speaker 1: don't we only I only let one piece linger. Then

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Speaker 1: it just becomes boiled meat. You're not making boiled meat.

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Speaker 1: You're making like you watch it. It's kind of like

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Speaker 1: flash poach. I don't know what the what the problem

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Speaker 1: it would be. I mean, honestly, if that water, if

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Speaker 1: that not water, the broth the hot pot is simmering. Um,

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Speaker 1: you can call it a blanche. I think, yeah, you blanch,

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Speaker 1: you blanch the meat. Um, thirty seconds isn't too long,

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Speaker 1: but it's plenty. Yeah. And as you're listening through those

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Speaker 1: those ingredients the things we're cooking, one that was notably

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Speaker 1: missing from that list that's really popular in China. That

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Speaker 1: would be a unique culinary experience that I'm sad I

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Speaker 1: couldn't provide is uh coagulated duck blood. That's one that like,

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Speaker 1: just pour a blood in there and let it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you don't really pour it. It's almost got the

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Speaker 1: consistency of like a jello gelatin. You can slice it

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Speaker 1: and it retains its uh integrity as you pick it

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Speaker 1: up with chopsticks. You can dip it almost like a

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Speaker 1: piece of liver. Then Yeah, it's it is very livery Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't think back when we were in mid

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Speaker 1: December amid these massive southward traveling flocks of Mallards. At

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Speaker 1: no pointed across my mind that I would have an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to serve mallard blood via hot pot to you boys,

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Speaker 1: because if it had, I might have been out there

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out a way to extract that blood

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Speaker 1: in the field. Yeah, I'm not sure how that would

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Speaker 1: have worked. Out. But I've looked into it for blood sausage,

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Speaker 1: and it's difficult or to capture the blood. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it'd be that difficult. Now, I got a friend,

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Speaker 1: a dog trainer, and he this is Jacob Zeiski up

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Speaker 1: in Arena, Wisconsin. And uh, he's big into training versatile

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Speaker 1: hunting dogs. And these dogs are expected to point on

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Speaker 1: dry land to retrieve in the water North American versus

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Speaker 1: the Hunting Dog Association. The dogs running around here are

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Speaker 1: dogs that have been tested through NAVTA trials. Yeah, do

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Speaker 1: you know Ronnie. I don't. Well, I know Ronnie, you

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Speaker 1: know through what you do. I've not met him, but

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Speaker 1: I'd love to. Guys, So this dude, Jake had to

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Speaker 1: leave the room. But man, you guys talk about So

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Speaker 1: this dude Jacob, like you know, there was a stint

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Speaker 1: where we were hunting as college students, like more than

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Speaker 1: anyone has any reason, like any right to be hunting.

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Speaker 1: We're hunting a lot, and he had worked out a

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Speaker 1: way to kind of capture blood from big game animals

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Speaker 1: that we've shot, and you get it into jugs, you know, see,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you're like field dressing a deer and

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Speaker 1: in the Midwest, you typically have the opportunity to bring

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Speaker 1: like the whole deer out if you want to. You

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Speaker 1: could feel dressed. But just if you hit it through

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Speaker 1: the lungs, just tipping on its back, wait five minutes,

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Speaker 1: and scoop it all out of there totally. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: my point is it's not difficult to capture blood from

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Speaker 1: a big game animal. I'm not sure how you do

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Speaker 1: it from a duck. What was he doing with it?

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Speaker 1: He'd freeze it and then he would use it for

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Speaker 1: basically simulating blood tracking, like over time, and that's for

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Speaker 1: human consumption. No, no, that's why. That's why I mentioned

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Speaker 1: the whole dog. The purpose of capturing the blood was

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Speaker 1: related to dog training. You only have, you know, a

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Speaker 1: couple of months out of the year when you can

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Speaker 1: be shooting white tailed deer. You want to have a

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Speaker 1: steady supply of dear blood over the course of the

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Speaker 1: training season. So we had these chest freezers that had

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Speaker 1: all assortment of fish and game products in them, among

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Speaker 1: which were these jugs of dear blood. Have you seen

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Speaker 1: the movie Only Lovers Left Alive? I have not seen

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Speaker 1: that movie. Laid on me, that's it, okay, alright, alright,

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Speaker 1: watch it well, discuss next time. A. No, when I

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Speaker 1: looked into making blood sausage, is that the end of

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Speaker 1: your things? Blood? Yeah, that's all I have to say.

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Speaker 1: Like that, I feel like that was the main missing

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Speaker 1: agredient because we had surf and turf, we had some

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Speaker 1: Oregon meat, we had a good representative cross section of

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Speaker 1: the big game species of New Mexico. China. We would

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Speaker 1: have been having a little blood too. Yeah, and China

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Speaker 1: we there definitely would have been the blood would have

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Speaker 1: been a key ingredient that we were missing. But I

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Speaker 1: appreciate the feedback. You know, like when I'm not I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna pretend to be the culinary student that either

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Speaker 1: of you guys are. But when you're gonna be hosting

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Speaker 1: you know, Steve Rinella and Janice Patelis for dinner, damn

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Speaker 1: you better got you got? Well, you gotta figure out like,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm not I'm not gonna like I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna pull out a package Oscar Meyer Wieners and uh

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Speaker 1: slap those in a white bread bun. We'd have had

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Speaker 1: something that you had shot would have been surprised. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well I think that's probably standard. Like if yeah, I'd

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Speaker 1: be like, yeah, if I'm gonna go to carl sus,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna eat some wild meat that Carl went out

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Speaker 1: secured for himself. Weep. But no, I don't have any

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Speaker 1: I'm not like I used to be good cook, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not a good cook anymore because the kids, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they change it. It's just like I just don't have

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Speaker 1: that kind of time like now, it's just they eats

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Speaker 1: damn early. It's like yeah, I like, yeah, I just

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Speaker 1: don't have I don't I don't get the every day spend.

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Speaker 1: I don't get the every day when I'm home spend

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Speaker 1: hours messing around. I'm like cooking for a two year

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Speaker 1: old or four year old and seven year old who

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Speaker 1: at seven thirty, I'm we're brushing their teeth. The honestly

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Speaker 1: were saying something blood, So you want to get your

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Speaker 1: hands out some blood? No I do. I would love

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Speaker 1: to make blood sausage. It's a very you know, popular,

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Speaker 1: Um what do you want to say, like you know,

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Speaker 1: cultural Latvian dish, right, Like I grew up eating blood

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Speaker 1: sausage with cranberry, uh not jam, but like a like

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Speaker 1: what do you call like a jam? That still was

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Speaker 1: like the like rough rough berries and stuff kind of

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Speaker 1: in it. I call that maybe like a well I

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Speaker 1: can tell you the difference between jelly and jam, but

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Speaker 1: it's such a dirty but anyway, I looked into like

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Speaker 1: the whole like getting blood to make it right, and

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Speaker 1: you can ask for it and buy it at a

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Speaker 1: butcher's shop, but the you want it in a liquid state, right,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't take long for that to change to Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the whole thing is like how you cool it down?

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Speaker 1: And you basically would have to have like a giant

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Speaker 1: vat with an ice Wand is what it would take

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Speaker 1: to do it out in the field really yes, because

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Speaker 1: you could sit there and basically stir it with an

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Speaker 1: ice wand to bring the tamp down, maintaining the liquid state.

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Speaker 1: If you get serious about this, I would just think

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Speaker 1: if you get seriously want to be the first guy,

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Speaker 1: or like not the first guy, because everybody's at this

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Speaker 1: point in our history, someone has done everything. But if

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Speaker 1: you want to be one of the guys with the

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Speaker 1: first guy you know about to do it, I would

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Speaker 1: think that you'd go and do it at a place

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Speaker 1: like Doug's place, you know exactly, get already, right, get already,

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Speaker 1: and then on opening day when you know that ample opportunities, right,

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Speaker 1: and then you're all set and blouch and then run

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Speaker 1: over there and start processing your blood sausage. And yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the question is would you shoot it in the

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Speaker 1: lungs and go what you were just explaining that that's

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Speaker 1: where I would capture the blood or would you shoot

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Speaker 1: it somewhere else where you would not cause that internal

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Speaker 1: hemorrhagy and cause all that blood to be in the

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Speaker 1: cavity and then some sort of like try to then

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Speaker 1: cut its throat and drain it that one. I see

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Speaker 1: where you're going with this, But you're into ethical you're

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Speaker 1: into an ethical mind field. If you're saying that you're

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Speaker 1: gonna cripple it up. No, no, no no, I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: so you can then run over their shot place and

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Speaker 1: you can make and and dispatch an ani on the

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Speaker 1: neck sure shoulder shot is probably what I would know

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Speaker 1: if if I was in that situation where God comes

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Speaker 1: down and puts a gun to your head and says

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Speaker 1: you gotta make dear blood sausage. Um, I would uh,

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Speaker 1: I would shoot it through the lungs and then hustle

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Speaker 1: over there and get it on its back. So the

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Speaker 1: blood's not exiting the wound. Hustle over there, get it

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Speaker 1: on its back, wait some number of minutes and uh

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Speaker 1: and and collect it out of there. Going there with

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Speaker 1: a small picture. Yeah, just like a maybe a ladle

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Speaker 1: ladled out start making blood sausage. Um you uh so

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Speaker 1: you haven't watched Only Lovers Left Alive? Have you watched

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Speaker 1: the film's Southern Comfort? I can't say that I have

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Speaker 1: okay insating comfort. It's a great movie. Uh, kind of

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Speaker 1: a ringing endorsement. Well, it tries to take a little

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Speaker 1: bit too much from Easy Rider towards the end. But um,

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Speaker 1: in it, some National Guard guys are on like doing

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Speaker 1: a mock war game scenario and the Bayous of Louisiana

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Speaker 1: and they're out there with just blanks and they get

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Speaker 1: someone get lost, and they steal a you know those

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Speaker 1: like the Cajun dugouts to pure rogues. They steal one

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Speaker 1: because they're lost and they're sick of being lost, and

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Speaker 1: they steal one. And that leads them to getting cross

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Speaker 1: ways with some people that you shouldn't get cross ways with.

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Speaker 1: And then all kinds of it has a lot of

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Speaker 1: elements of deliverance. I was a lot of deliberance, debating

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Speaker 1: whether if you if Deliverance had sex with the easy Rider,

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Speaker 1: that would be the baby. Baby would be Southern comfort.

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Speaker 1: So that's a better enforcement in this. In this they

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Speaker 1: make blood sausage in this movie. Um, and it's like

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Speaker 1: a it's a it's a it's a pretty captivating scene.

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Speaker 1: And another one a documentary called Brother's Keeper. It's a

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Speaker 1: documentary about three brothers who murder their father and their

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Speaker 1: trial for killing their father. Um, they kill a pig

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Speaker 1: and collect some blood out of it. And Yanni, before

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Speaker 1: you embark on your little mission here, you should you

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Speaker 1: should take in some cinema and uh and get some pointers,

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Speaker 1: I will carl Um, Oh, real quick. Now the lion. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's get back to that lion. But let's not dwell

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Speaker 1: on it just kind of late. So that again the disclaimer,

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Speaker 1: like we we've all heard this story Steve Johnis and

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Speaker 1: I and we're kind of recounting facts that are maybe

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Speaker 1: a little murky in hindsight. But the takeaway was this

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Speaker 1: guy was a biologist working on the line project. One

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Speaker 1: of the collars goes into a mortality mode from basically

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Speaker 1: being immobile for a certain amount of time, So you

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Speaker 1: know there's likely a dead cat out there. The guy

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Speaker 1: goes out, finds this cat and it looks flawless, like

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Speaker 1: there's no visible evidence that could lead to a an

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Speaker 1: obvious conclusion about the cause of death. So the biologist

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Speaker 1: scoops up the mountain lion takes it back to his garage.

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Speaker 1: If I remember properly, and I want to say it was,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like the in retrospect looking at

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Speaker 1: it's like the perfect storm because it's the weekend, right,

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Speaker 1: so it's not like during the week where he would

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Speaker 1: then have maybe taken to a lab. And I remember

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Speaker 1: you telling me this part of it. Yea, so, and

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Speaker 1: and that's a perfect example of a detail that I

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Speaker 1: either didn't know or have forgotten already. So hopefully I

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Speaker 1: sufficiently like, listen, trust your instinct, trust remember, because I

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Speaker 1: was recounting es a plane crash that I witnessed the

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Speaker 1: aftermath of and and and this was when I was

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Speaker 1: a child, yeah, okay, not even ten probably, And I

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Speaker 1: was recounting details and I'm like, I can't remember. I

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Speaker 1: think this happened, Think that happened. And then someone found

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Speaker 1: the article and sent it to me, And dude, you

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Speaker 1: gotta when it comes to stuff like this, I feel

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Speaker 1: like you can generally kind of trust the little feelings,

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Speaker 1: like things you kind of felt like you remember. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I would feel like that would be a more

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Speaker 1: applicable mindset if this was something that I had experienced

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Speaker 1: as opposed to articles that I'd read, but I did

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Speaker 1: where you're coming from. So, Yeah, the guy takes the

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Speaker 1: cat back to his garage, and, like a good biologist

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Speaker 1: would want to do, he's hell bent on determining the

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Speaker 1: cause of death of this mountain lion and elects to

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Speaker 1: perform a necropsy on the cat, which is basically not

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Speaker 1: a necropsy. Nope, knee crops. Knee crops. I'm gonna I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna give that a firm did that, because I was

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Speaker 1: always confused about that word. Yeah, and I'm sure there's

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Speaker 1: some people who would disagree, but I'd be happy to

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Speaker 1: hash it out with them at a later date. So

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Speaker 1: the process of knee crops, he's essentially going through an

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Speaker 1: eliminating possible causes of death. So one of the first

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Speaker 1: things you do is try to get the skin off

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Speaker 1: the cat and look to see if there's any evidence

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Speaker 1: of trauma that's visible. Kind of superficially once you once

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Speaker 1: you skin the animal out, is there any you know,

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Speaker 1: any explanation, um. And essentially the guy made some mistakes

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Speaker 1: in terms of the standard protocols around limiting your exposure

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Speaker 1: to potential pathogens. And again, if memory serves me correctly,

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Speaker 1: he was using some standard like the kind of tools

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Speaker 1: you would find in your average garage to conduct this

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Speaker 1: knee crops, like reciprocating saw yeah, saws all. And in

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Speaker 1: the process of cutting this cat apart trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out what killed the cat, he ends up exposing himself

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Speaker 1: to a various bodily fluids from the cat. And I

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Speaker 1: don't recall what the exact mode of exposure was, whether

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Speaker 1: something got in his eyes, or whether it got in

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Speaker 1: his mouth or cut in his hand, or if they

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Speaker 1: ever even determined what the route of exposure was. But

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Speaker 1: the takeaway was that within a matter of a very

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Speaker 1: short period of time, like on the order of a

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Speaker 1: day and a half or two days something to that effect,

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Speaker 1: the guy was dead from the plague, which is what

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Speaker 1: had killed the mountain lion. Yeah, And we got on

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Speaker 1: this subject because we were going down the laundry the

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Speaker 1: impressive laundry list of zonotic diseases that Steve and or

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Speaker 1: Janice have wrestled with, which is which is a no?

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Speaker 1: And that's when you don't want to And I used

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Speaker 1: to be used to do tree work, tree surgeon work,

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Speaker 1: and um, the guy worked for hated squirrels, and we

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Speaker 1: differed on that because I always love squirrels, but he

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Speaker 1: hated squirrels because of the plague. Really, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: come on, dude, the plague. But apparently it's something to

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Speaker 1: watch out for. And I don't want to make light

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Speaker 1: of this man's debt. No, I don't either go and

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Speaker 1: find to go and find. Uh. If you go to

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Speaker 1: the me eater dot com slash podcasts, you will find

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Speaker 1: podcast descriptions of all the episodes and within that, when

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Speaker 1: you're listening to this, go there and we will have that.

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Speaker 1: We will find that pure reviewed journal article and put

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Speaker 1: it up. Yeah, and I'm glad that you said that, Steve,

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Speaker 1: because I could I could see myself or any number

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Speaker 1: of colleagues potentially making that kind of a mistake, you know,

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Speaker 1: like the notion of being killed by the plague when

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Speaker 1: you're trying to do any cropsy on the mountain line.

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Speaker 1: It was not the first thing on that gentleman's mind.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we're obviously not trying to make light

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Speaker 1: of the situation in any way, but it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a powerful story because um zoonotic diseases are not something

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Speaker 1: to mess around with. And I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have a tendency to kind of get cavalier with

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Speaker 1: the way we handle dead animals. Yeah, there's no reason

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Speaker 1: why I don't use latex gloves, but I don't use

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Speaker 1: latex gloves. Um. I even sometimes carry him with me

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Speaker 1: and don't use them. Well, even when I use them,

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Speaker 1: I feel like half the time I end up with

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Speaker 1: as much blood inside the glove as you know, more

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Speaker 1: than I would I have for garage chores. I have

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Speaker 1: some very heavy duty ones that I keep thinking about

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Speaker 1: bringing with me, but I don't do it because one,

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Speaker 1: I don't like it when I don't like going down

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Speaker 1: that path, and I don't like going down it with

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Speaker 1: myself or with my kids, of always thinking that everything's

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Speaker 1: gonna hurt you. Yeah, And I don't like when I

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Speaker 1: catch myself in a paranoid state, and and I don't

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Speaker 1: like to act like the world so dangerous all the time,

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Speaker 1: and that everything's bad and gonna get you. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: let's talk on this. What is the threat of um, Like,

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Speaker 1: just let's take the white tail deer and you're gutting it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what blood born what

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Speaker 1: blood born pathogens one is trying to avoid on a

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Speaker 1: white tail deer. Yeah, I would say, I am not

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Speaker 1: really well equipped to answer that, but I'll give you

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Speaker 1: a brief tail along these lines. Um, some good friends

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Speaker 1: of mine up in Wisconsin, we would have these annual

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Speaker 1: parties where we would all make a mountain of sausage,

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Speaker 1: right the annual sausage Fest. And so you're you butcher

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Speaker 1: and deer and all the random cuts that you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be packaging as like a roast or steak or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You throw those in a big heap. And then at

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Speaker 1: some point later on in the year, after the hunting

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Speaker 1: was over, though, have a big sausage party. So not

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Speaker 1: naming names, you guys know who I'm talking about here,

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Speaker 1: the guy. The guy's listening will know we had a

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Speaker 1: sausage party where the the rules of proper like hygiene

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Speaker 1: and handling the meat we're not followed. And by all accounts,

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Speaker 1: the series of events was one of our sausage making

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Speaker 1: team with meaty hands, touched the door knob with the

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Speaker 1: meaty hands not doing enough hand washing between touching the

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Speaker 1: meat touching the door knob, and ended up later like,

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Speaker 1: not not very long later, but after the sausages are made,

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Speaker 1: grabbing the door handle which still probably had some of

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Speaker 1: this meat juice on it. And other members of this

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Speaker 1: individual's family also did the same thing and ended up

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Speaker 1: with a pretty wicked case of food born illness cranking

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Speaker 1: through the family from well, you know, it came from

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Speaker 1: the door knob. Well, like, the series of events is

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Speaker 1: what leads to the conclusion that it had to do

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Speaker 1: with the meat handling. So the door knob is the

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Speaker 1: the point on the house that was identified as the

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Speaker 1: likely thing. A lot of people were handling, and there

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Speaker 1: was a point in time where the hands went from

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Speaker 1: the sausage meat to the door and this person was like, oh,

400
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: it's no big deal. Yeah, And the conclusion, and it's

401
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: not bulletproof, but the conclusion is that it likely came

402
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Speaker 1: from getting this meat juice, So it's kind of a

403
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Speaker 1: food born thing as opposed to his ownoutic disease. But

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Speaker 1: I do think like in general, we have a tendency

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Speaker 1: to be kind of cav leer around this stuff. That said,

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Speaker 1: your point about choosing what you want to be scared of.

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Speaker 1: You know, when I think, you know, you don't have

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Speaker 1: to be an an actuary scientist to recognize that the

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Speaker 1: things we do that are the most dangerous do not

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Speaker 1: involve handling dead animals. Right, It's like getting behind the wheel.

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Speaker 1: So if you want to be scared about something, I

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Speaker 1: would suggest that's like at the top of your list.

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Speaker 1: That would be like a high priority scary thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so your point is well taken. But I the reason

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Speaker 1: I I'm going on about this is that I could

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Speaker 1: see a lot of really good people, like sound biologists

417
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Speaker 1: being a little bit cavalier in approaching a dead animal

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Speaker 1: like that, wanting to get to the bottom of what

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Speaker 1: killed it, and making the same mistakes. So I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of sympathy for what that man went through

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Speaker 1: and also his family. You know, it's a horrible story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's like what what what not? That you blame

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Speaker 1: the debt, But what's to alleviates blame is it it

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Speaker 1: was so unusual that we're now sitting around talking about it.

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Speaker 1: This was a couple of years ago too, they wrote

426
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: someone wrote a paper about in a peer review journal.

427
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: So it's like if it was just a thing that like, oh,

428
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: any idiot would know right right, me and Yanni got

429
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: sick from eating undercook bear meat while talking about how

430
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: we're probably gonna get sick from eating undercook bear meat.

431
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: So that's like a level of stupidity that this really

432
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 1: isn't because something that just like so unexpected and without

433
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: precedent struck this guy. It wasn't like, ha ha, uh

434
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: this is really stupid. We could get sick from this

435
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: undercook bear meat. Let's have some more, you know. Yeah,

436
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: like if we'd have died from that, I'd be like, yeah,

437
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: that's worth a chuckle, like the stupid ending. Yeah, now,

438
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: just changed subject real quick. The thing I wanted to

439
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: tell people about, um, you know, they're unrelated, like not

440
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: that any of this is related. Can you real quick

441
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: get into that? You used to uh be a contract

442
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: dear shooter for airport, So I'll get into that. Uh,

443
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: it's not not a very accurate that's not inspanation of

444
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: how it went, Like me isn't a good job? No, well,

445
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: but it was not far enough off the off the mark.

446
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: So here's the deal. Um, I actually, as an undergraduate,

447
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: incorporated my own business and then bid for a number

448
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: of contracts to wildlife management work. And I had a

449
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: number of clientele that included, uh proving grounds for automobiles

450
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: and no airport work in essence. It was very similar

451
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: to airport work where you were trying to alleviate human

452
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: wildlife conflicts in essence by removing wildlife from the scene.

453
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: And uh, so I've shot a lot of deer, a

454
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: lot of turkeys, and situations that were far from hunting context.

455
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: And for folks who haven't done that kind of work,

456
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, it might sound like, oh, man getting paid

457
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: to shoot deer, that sounds awesome that you get over

458
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: that real quick. Yeah, And it's you know, it's really

459
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: hard work. And also, you know, my my mentality around

460
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: hunting around wildlife is such that I don't take killing lightly.

461
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: And when I when I have a successful hunt, and

462
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: my mindset is in this mode of thinking about meals

463
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: like the one we just had and stocking up. You

464
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: know that the translation of death to food. It feels good,

465
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: it feels something to celebrate and feel happy about. But

466
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: when you're thinking when the animal is in this context

467
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: of being a problem, and you're like, I need to

468
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: eliminate this problem by killing this animal. It is a

469
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: very different set of emotions that I personally experienced in

470
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: that sort of a setting. So we're talking, you know,

471
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: like in a given year, I might I might shoot

472
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: or I might have shot in some of those years

473
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood of like fifty or sixty deer in

474
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: a year, and it doesn't take too many deer into

475
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: that fifty dear, let's say before You're kind of like, man,

476
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: this is not pleasant at least again for me personally,

477
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: that Lincoln was all that. If that was your only relationship,

478
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: it might have been different. But you're juxtaposing it to

479
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: the feeling, to the celebratory feeling of hunting for meat.

480
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: So you had that that confusion occurring in your head.

481
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's confusion. I've feel like even

482
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: now and yeah, I feel like it's just it's so disparate.

483
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: They're so there's such different things, you know, Like and

484
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: again in the hunting world, this this word hunting two

485
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: folks who haven't especially to folks who haven't experienced it,

486
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: a lot of different things kind of get put under

487
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: that umbrella. A lot of different activities and this this

488
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: is very much we're talking about calling wildlife, which is

489
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: a very different thing from hunting. Both involve killing wildlife.

490
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: One of them, to me is something you know that

491
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: I enjoy more than almost any other activity, Like it's

492
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: one of the most satisfying things I've experienced is being

493
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: able to hunt and feed my family through that activity.

494
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: The other thing calling UM, I see the I see

495
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: the merit, I see the value in that management approach,

496
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: and there's there's a utility to being able to manage

497
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: wildlife in that way. But when you're the person pulling

498
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: the trigger, at least based on my experience being in

499
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: that role, it is a night and day different experience

500
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: from going out with the hope that you're going to

501
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 1: fill your freezer. How how would you how would you

502
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: get paid for that kind of work? Well, I had

503
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: a had a corporation I incorporated. It would have been

504
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: about two thousand three, and I ran that business for

505
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 1: ten years. UM. I had contracts in place where I

506
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: was I would essentially charge by the hour, so I

507
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: keep track of the amount of time I was out

508
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: doing the work. UM and then for virtually all the species.

509
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: All this work was done in Michigan, by the way,

510
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: and none of it involved migratory wildlife species. So it

511
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: was always the situation that the State of Michigan would

512
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: issue a special essentially permit to be able to kill

513
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: those species in the interest of of managing Were they

514
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: sanctioned to do that for geese or would that fall

515
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: under migratory waterfil Yeah, so geese are a good example

516
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: and actually resident in the It doesn't matter if the

517
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: resident or not because it's a migratory species. So in

518
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: order to secure a similar permit to manage migratory waterfall

519
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: as an example, um, you need to also have federal

520
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: involvement fishing, Wildlife Service involvement to get a permit for that.

521
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: So never crossed into that arena. Predominantly what we were

522
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: dealing with, we're white tailed deer and wild turkeys. So

523
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: I've shot, like for a midwesterner, I've shot more turkeys

524
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: with a rifle than probably any guy you'll meet. Um.

525
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: And again that also was very you know, a lot

526
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: of this was shooting from vehicles. A lot of the

527
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: culling work with white tail deer happens at night. Shooting

528
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: him with spotlight. So it's not at all about fair chase.

529
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: You're not. You don't charge by the deer, You're charged

530
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: by the hour. That's correct, Yep, got you. You know

531
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: that was gonna be. My question is it's like, so sure,

532
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: the point the trigger is different, you know that aspect

533
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: of it was different, But did you ever feel like

534
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: you're hunting during the things like you're using totally different

535
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: You're just max like you know, one of the and

536
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: I love to I love to bow hunt. Um, I

537
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: love hunting and challenging situations. We've been talking a little

538
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: bit about this archery Ibex hunt here in New Mexico

539
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: that I've enjoyed the last few years, which has a

540
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: very low success rate. So I like havin the deck

541
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: stacked against me. I like the challenge and with the

542
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: culling operations, you are doing everything you can to be

543
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: as efficient as you can be while accounting for human safety,

544
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: because that's another element here as we're talking about wildlife management,

545
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: oftentimes in a landscape that is very much human dominated,

546
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: so you have people all around you know you're you're

547
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: dealing with trying to be absolutely safe with every shot

548
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: you're taking. As is the case obviously when you're hunting

549
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 1: as well, but it's so much easier to accomplish that

550
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: when you're in a remote landscape, when you're in like suburbia.

551
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: Um so yeah, like no holds barred. You're talking about

552
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: shooting at night, shooting from vehicles, baiting, um you name it.

553
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: And that also, you know, feeds into this easily discernible,

554
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: discernible disparity that I've I've been talking about a little

555
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: bit already. Yeah, I would. I wouldn't do that. I

556
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: mean there's many times for the bulk of my life

557
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: I would have It's a luxury to be able to

558
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: say that I wouldn't take that work now because I

559
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: don't need to. But I did do like work like that, trapping,

560
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: animal controls, animal damage control, trapping, but never shooting, and

561
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: um no, no, man, I wouldn't be like sweet, it's

562
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 1: like a type a hunt. Yeah, it wouldn't. I wouldn't

563
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,479
Speaker 1: feel like that. Another thing that makes it feel way

564
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: more like work is when you're talking about dealing with

565
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: that number of animals, because a lot of times what

566
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: we end up doing is like donating the meat to

567
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: a food bank, you know, like you couldn't do that.

568
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: I was gonna guess that you had that you had

569
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: to discard it because of the permit process, now we

570
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: were able to we were able to donate, donate the

571
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: meat from the turkeys and the deer. So you dress

572
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: all those deer out, yeah, yeah. And when so imagine

573
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: you're on like a five day deer hunt and you

574
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: succeed in filling your tag and getting a deer, and

575
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: all that work of field dressing, dragging the animal around

576
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: or quartering it up, packing it out, that all feels

577
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: kind of like a celebratory part of the process. You know,

578
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: it's hard work, but it's kind of the icing on

579
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: the cake. It's like the hard the hard work that

580
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 1: you have earned the privilege of doing through your successful hunt.

581
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: But when you start talking about like okay, we know

582
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: we want to try to remove forty or fifty deer

583
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: from this site, that that becomes a huge amount of work.

584
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: So I got like I thought I knew how to feel,

585
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 1: dress and handle a white tail based on my hunting

586
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: experience leading up to that point. But I got a

587
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of experience in a short period

588
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: of time handling that many deer. But it felt entirely

589
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: like work. I was. I had to like, I don't

590
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: want to call it hunting, um uh, but because I

591
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: can't think of a better word right now. I I

592
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: hunted in Scotland one time, and in Scotland, you know,

593
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: in Scotland, hunting typically refers to fox hunting. We start

594
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: say stalking, right That's it was funny about it was

595
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: it there's this guy and he and you know, and

596
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: they're like, what we have the North American model of

597
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: wildlife and here wildlife is public property. So whether if

598
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: wildlife on private properties still owned by the public, it

599
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: just happens to be residing on private in Scotland. If

600
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: you own the land, you on the animals on it.

601
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: And uh they sell the meat into marketplaces. So when

602
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: you go into a butcher's shop in Scotland, it's you'll

603
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: find rabbits and ducks that have shotgun pellets in them,

604
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 1: and you'll find deer that have been shot by guns

605
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: hanging in there. And so on one hand they're running

606
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: an operation where they're coaling deer and selling them, but

607
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: when there's a client, they put on a different, even

608
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: different outfit of clothing. You get dressed up in the

609
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: like the tweeds, which is ridiculous, dressed up in a

610
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: little suit and you go out and stock or hunt

611
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,919
Speaker 1: red deer. So I went and did this with the gamekeeper, um,

612
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: the yeager meister, right, the gamekeeper, and I remember what

613
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: we did this, And the next day he was going

614
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 1: back out to coal, different clothes, different firearm, but would

615
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: go out into the same area and set up on

616
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: a knob and shoot red deer. And he somehow was

617
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: able to maintain the dichotomy that there's no there's cooling

618
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 1: and then they're stalking, and I'm like, but as best

619
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: as I could tell, they had to do with the tweeds, right.

620
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: And when it gets when hunting gets that like hunting

621
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: that borders that close on something else, it's like, it's

622
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: just like you said, it's just not honey, it's not hunting.

623
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: It's like you're shooting in a semi wild form of lot.

624
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: You're like dispatching a semi wild form of livestock. You know,

625
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: there's nothing I want to ask you about. Oh what

626
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: kind of gun? Jeus, and you're doing that. I shot

627
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: a Tica M in a two forty three caliber, so

628
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: I've shot with like a suppressor. I did not shoot

629
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: a suppressor and the reason for that was the licensing

630
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: process in Michigan was sufficiently difficult to navigate that I

631
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: did not embark down that path. That was a funny

632
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: thing about Scotland. This is before suppressors started to be

633
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: able to use here, and um, you know, quite a

634
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: few years ago and I was like, man, I can't

635
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: believe you boys can use suppressors. And they're like, I

636
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: can't believe you boys hunt without them? You crazy? Yeah,

637
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: they thought it was irresponsible to hunt without a suppressor.

638
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: My ears would agree with you, not just yours, with

639
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: the dude next to you. Um, let me now, let

640
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: me ask you this question, because is something you told

641
00:39:54,800 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: me about. Uh, You're in China and you're at the

642
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: latitude roughly the same latitude where you spent your entire life,

643
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: and you're telling me how you're out in the woods

644
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: and there's like equivalents yeah for everything. Yeah, tell that,

645
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: explain that and untell the like the big exception. Yeah,

646
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm talking about? I do. I

647
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: totally do. And in Michigan, at least one of the

648
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: cool things is you travel from south to north um

649
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 1: the state of Michigan along the side of the highway

650
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: has these signs that indicate when you've passed the parallel.

651
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if other states do that or not.

652
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: Have you seen those other places, but I know I

653
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: think of it as a distinctly Michigan thing that sells

654
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: you when you passed that was that was where Dixon

655
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: line I think is the Yeah. So the like if

656
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 1: you look at a map of the US, that big

657
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: arcing line that defines most of our northern borders, the

658
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: forty nine. But when you you crossed the fort they

659
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: put a line because you're halfway between the equator in

660
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: the North Pole, and like each degree of latitude I

661
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: think gives you about seventy miles as you march up.

662
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: It sounds about right. Yeah, So that was my you know,

663
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 1: like as a middle school student, I remember passing those

664
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 1: signs and that was finally what helped me like differentiate

665
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: between longitude and latitude. And I have fond memories of

666
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: traveling traveling up to the cabin and passing the parallel

667
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: sign on our way up there. And so if you

668
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: think you would say, like halfway between the equator and

669
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: North Pole, yeah or something, it worded it beyond just

670
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: explain what that meant. I would love to have that

671
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: sign in front of me right now to refresh my memory.

672
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: But I do remember, like the notion of equidistant between

673
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: the equator and the north pole. So if you were

674
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: to hop on that forty parallel and just start trapsing

675
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: along that line at the same latitude and then get

676
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: over to China, the same kind of distance between your

677
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 1: equator and through Wisconsin Minnesota, Well that's if you go north.

678
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: I'm just you could go either way. Damn near the

679
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: same distance either way. So the study sites. Can I

680
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: interrupt you, because remind me of something? Bring it, you know,

681
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: like when your kid and they say, like, oh, if

682
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: you dug a hole straight down, you'd come out in China,

683
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: like you wouldn't you would if you got your angle

684
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: right most people in America. But you know what that's called.

685
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: It's called the antipities. Wherever you are, if you burrowed

686
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: the hole nuts down through the the core of the

687
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: earth and hit you would arrive at your previous locations antipities.

688
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 1: And that's that's singular or those those two points would

689
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,919
Speaker 1: be antipoities that I don't know all right, but there

690
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: you are, so follow that around the globe halfway, and

691
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: you know, somewhere in like west west central China, Sichuan Province,

692
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,720
Speaker 1: so I was doing I was doing some research there

693
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: in eight different nature reserves in Sichuan, Shanxi, and Yunan provinces,

694
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: kind of the southwestern part of the country. And for

695
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 1: for folks to imagine kind of the geography of China,

696
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: it's got some striking similarities to the layout of the

697
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: United States, where along the eastern coast of China you

698
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: have these major concentrations of people, like huge cities, you

699
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: know that like the termite mound housing just like high

700
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: rises with tons and tons of people. But then if

701
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: you go out to the wild west of Chinese, startetting

702
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: into some rugged country that is relatively remote um and

703
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: in that chunk of the country kind of west central

704
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: southern China is where you'll find Shanshi, Sichuan, Yunan provinces.

705
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: And I was doing some work the Asiatic black bears

706
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: in eight different nature reserves in those three provinces, and

707
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: one of the study sites where I worked is in

708
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: northern Sichuan Province and a nature reserve called Tanja hu

709
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: and this this place, it's kind of it reminds me

710
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: kind of like the Chronicles of Narnia, where you'd see vegetation.

711
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: That makes sense because you're at this latitude where you know,

712
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: I grew up around oak trees and kind of maple

713
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: beech forest, and you know, I knew the pine trees

714
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: and the spruce trees of my home forests in northern Michigan.

715
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: But if you caught a glimpse of a deer in Michigan,

716
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: you know you didn't have to double take. You know

717
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 1: it was a white tailed deer, whereas in Tanjah Huh.

718
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: I believe there are seven different ungulate species in that reserve.

719
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 1: So you might catch a little glimmer of how big

720
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: is this reserve. It's a good question, and I would

721
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: have to do a little digging. I think I've actually

722
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 1: got that fig year. I I printed off a couple

723
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: of papers from there, so I'll try to get you

724
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 1: get your number on that while I chatting here. But

725
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: you would see species like musk deer, um mount jack

726
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: or barking deer as they're called gorel zero. There was

727
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: this amazing you know, one of the most epic animals

728
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 1: I've ever seen in the wild is the Sichuan Golden Talking,

729
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: which is this huge mountain Yeah. This this description won't

730
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: do it justice, Like people should just look this animal

731
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: up and check out pictures of its Sichuan Golden Talking.

732
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: But it's like a stout, really sort of front heavy

733
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 1: goat of the mountains that's massive, like on the order

734
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 1: of I'm just winging a guest here. They probably weigh

735
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: five d six hundred pounds the wild mountain goat. Yeah,

736
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: but I'm staying mountain goat. And it's like, you're gonna

737
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:58,879
Speaker 1: see a picture of this thing, be like that doesn't

738
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: look like a mountain goat, this big golden uh like

739
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: flowing for they stick out on the side of a

740
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: hill like you wouldn't need good glass defying these things.

741
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: They just stick out like a sore thumb. And when

742
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: I was when I was working in these nature reserves,

743
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: I was thinking, you know, what kind of animals do

744
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: you need to be worried about out here? Asiatic black

745
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: bears are notoriously more aggressive than American black bears, So

746
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: I was always kind of like bears in the back

747
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: of my mind. And then I'd heard stories about nature

748
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: reserve staff having gnarly encounters with wild boars from time

749
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: to time, especially if they had young with them. So

750
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: it's you know, kind of hip to the fact, and

751
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: that's wild boars in their native ring yep. And then

752
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 1: what I didn't realize is that this animal to talking.

753
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: According to the folks who live in that chunk of

754
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: country and told me all their stories, that was the

755
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: animal to be the most worried about. And the reason

756
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: for that is that they lived in such rugged stuff.

757
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: There were these these paths us is that villagers would

758
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: use to traverse the reserve between communities, so like footpaths,

759
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: and they'd be up in the rugged high country and

760
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 1: on the same trail as a talking and people would

761
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: fairly often, apparently based on the stories I was told,

762
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: have situations where they would they would have an option

763
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: of either getting run over by these things because they

764
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: they'll charge you if they feel like they're threatened, or

765
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 1: bailing off the side of some nasty cliff and breaking

766
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: their legs, or even dying. And there was a researcher

767
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 1: on a talking project working in that chunk of country

768
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: who um, I was trying to dart one of these things,

769
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: and I didn't witness this happen, but I heard the

770
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: story and the guy was in kind of a tight

771
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: spot when he took the shot and the talking after

772
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 1: getting hit with the dart ended up chasing him off

773
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: a ledge and he jumped off this ledge and and

774
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: kind of jacked up one of his ankles, like not

775
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: a major or fall, but on the order like fift.

776
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: So the talk and it turns out, was the animal

777
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: to be most concerned about in that landscape. So just

778
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: the biodiversity was amazing. But the story that I was

779
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 1: telling you a while back, Steve, was, you know, I'm

780
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: in this forest for the first time. I'm I'm kind

781
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: of trying to get my bearings from a botanical perspective, understand, Like, Okay,

782
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: so there's a that looks like a chestnut tree, that

783
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: looks like, uh, an oak tree, it looks like a

784
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: walnut tree. And I'm kind of starting to feel like,

785
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: all right, I get this forest. And as I'm walking

786
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: along this ridge up ahead, I see tree limbs swinging,

787
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: I hear branches breaking, and I'm thinking, oh, maybe that's

788
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: maybe that's a bear up there or you know who

789
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: that who that knows what it's gonna be I kind

790
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: of close the distance a little bit, and there's this

791
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 1: whole string of golden monkeys in the oak forest, jumping

792
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: around in the tree tops, and they see me and

793
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: start vocalizing, barking, yelling, and there are monkeys running along

794
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: the forest floor. There are monkeys crashing through the treetops,

795
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: and I remember just standing there thinking to myself, I'm

796
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: not in Michigan anymore. This is a different ball game here.

797
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, really fantastic as as a wildlife biologist, just

798
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: getting a chance to experience a different a different piece

799
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: of ground, um with that kind of biodiversity. And it

800
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: was really humbling too, because I thought, you know, I

801
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: had these these preconceived notions of what China was like

802
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: that we're really really ignorant, frankly, Um, I was just

803
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: imagining like a massive sea of humanity and people, you know,

804
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: packed in on top of each other, and some of

805
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: the cities, you know, I've I've felt that way in

806
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: the cities. But there are places in these reserves that

807
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: are every bit is breathtaking as anything I've seen anywhere

808
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: else in the world, and the biodiversity is unbelievable. Places

809
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: where you can you know, drink the water that's bubbling

810
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: out of streams and high elevation rivers where you can,

811
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: you know, stand on a cliff and look down and

812
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: see every pebble on the bottom of the stream. Just

813
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: beautiful landscapes. But another important distinction that I love to

814
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: point out to folks who enjoy recreating in our public

815
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: lands here in the US is that some of these

816
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: reserves are in essence very difficult for the average Chinese

817
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: citizen to access, and the recreational opportunities are very limited

818
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: because it's cost prohibitive to get there. No, because they're

819
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: not they're not the lands are not set aside to

820
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: provide necessarily uh for recreational opportunity. These are these reserves

821
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: were in large part established to protect the remnant habitat

822
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: of pandas so they they exist primarily as a conservation

823
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: tool for a species of you know, kind of globally

824
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: recognized significance. It's like the poster child of Chinese conservation.

825
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,879
Speaker 1: And they're not operating under a multiple use now, it's

826
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: a conservation mandate. Now that being said, it was also

827
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: really interesting to note how much agriculture was happening inside

828
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: the boundaries of some of these reserves, And that was

829
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: one of the things that the research I was doing

830
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: focused on was um the degree to which agricultural activity

831
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:49,240
Speaker 1: inside of the nature's or boundaries related to the stress

832
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 1: responses of bears in that landscape. So I was looking

833
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: at the relationship between the production of hormones indicative of

834
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: sort of a stress response to a variety of factors,

835
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: including human activity, including natural food abundance, including whether the

836
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: bears were within the boundaries of a nature reserve or

837
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: outside the boundaries of the nature reserve, the overall kind

838
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: of quality of the habitat um. And so you hear

839
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: the word nature reserve and it might elicit a picture

840
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: in your mind of, you know, kind of an undisturbed landscape.

841
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: But within the boundaries of some of these reserves you

842
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: have people living, raising livestock, growing crops, in some cases poaching.

843
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: So it's not as simple as it might seem at first. Blush,

844
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: what is the um? You can approach us wherever you want.

845
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: But but I know that one of the things you

846
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: did there is you delivered a lecture on the North

847
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: American model. So you delivered a lecture on the idea

848
00:52:54,040 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: of publicly owned wildlife and public harvest of sustainable resources,

849
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: which is like a foreign concept there. Explain that, but

850
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 1: also explain what what is like and what what forms

851
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: does hunting take in China. So I'll start off by

852
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: saying I've presented that kind of a presentation in a

853
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: variety of formats in China, and that included speaking to

854
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: university classes at Peaking University about the various models of

855
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 1: resource use around the country, including the North American model, Yeah,

856
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,760
Speaker 1: thank you, around the world, So talking about subsistence hunting,

857
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: talking about the European model, the African model, the North

858
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 1: American model, and what's the African model real quick? So

859
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: the African model would be basically wealthy international tourists paying

860
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 1: high dollar to come in typically in a guided form

861
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: at and hunt and pay in a way that the

862
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: finances directly benefit the community and the conservation of the

863
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 1: place where the hunting is take is occurring. And China

864
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: actually had a very similar model to that up until

865
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 1: two thousand and six. So this kind of gets into

866
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: your second part of your question. Um, one of the

867
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: forms of hunting that has historically occurred in China is

868
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: this same model where you know, wealthy international adventure seekers

869
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 1: would pay big money, um, you know, tens of thousands

870
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 1: of dollars for a tag and pursue any number of species,

871
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: including by the way, the Sichuan golden talking that I

872
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: talked about, that was one of the species that people

873
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 1: would pay to be able to hunt. Another one that

874
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: would that would incentivize local people to not kill and

875
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: eat the animals. It's more alive, it's it's worth far

876
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: more to some out of town dude than it is

877
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: in your cooking pot. Yeah. So a really good example

878
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 1: of that, and one of the one of the places

879
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: where I presented on this subject. In two thousand and ten,

880
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: there was a workshop that was hosted by a variety

881
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 1: of partners, including the Chinese government, to essentially explore the

882
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: idea of reopening this sport hunting program that had been

883
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: closed in two thousand six. And this was hosted up

884
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: in the northwest part of China in a province called Shinjian,

885
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: in a city called Urumuchi, and that's close to the

886
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: border with Mongolia. By close, I mean it's like a

887
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,839
Speaker 1: I don't know, fifteen hour horrendous bus ride. But if

888
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:49,240
Speaker 1: you go north in Shinjian towards Mongolia, there's this huge

889
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 1: wildlife park where historically, prior to the two thousand six

890
00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: ban um, there was international sport hunting as they term it,

891
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: for marco polo are golly sheep. So one of the

892
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: reasons that the marco polo are golly rams are so

893
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: appealing as a trophy species for these international adventure seekers

894
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 1: is that they carry around a set of horns that

895
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: would make you know, the North American wild sheep kind

896
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: of pale in comparison, if you'll forgive such a comparison,

897
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,240
Speaker 1: all right, because we're talking about an animal with horns

898
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: potentially up to six ft on each side of its

899
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: head if you had to uncurl them. Yeah, So it's

900
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: like it grows like so so Americans, like you know,

901
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: artists are aunist. You look at a big horn or

902
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: a doll sheet. Now they're getting big when they achieve

903
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: what we call full curl. Okay, a lot of big

904
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: doll sheep are well passed full curl, but meaning when

905
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 1: you look at it from the side, that horn describes

906
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: the three sixty degree circle. If you were to like

907
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 1: uncurl that circle and measure the length on a big

908
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 1: doll sheet, like forty inches is the threshold where a

909
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: doll sheet becomes like, holy sh it, do you hear

910
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: about Dave? He shout of forty plus inch doll sheep.

911
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: So that's a big one. But these sons of bitches

912
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: are six ft long horns and they get like double curlers.

913
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: We used to joke about a doll sheep like because

914
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: you're trying to find a full curl because it's legal,

915
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: and then we joke like, he's like a double curler,

916
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: But they really are double curlers, like they're darn near.

917
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm swiping in right now on the

918
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: on the phone here, and it's just I mean they

919
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: so go look at a picture of a Marco poland

920
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: you can see why, now I shouldn't say this, if

921
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: you understand people's devotion to sheet, you can see why

922
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: you might spend say six, he's seventy. Like you look

923
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 1: at you look at what you know, a wild cheap

924
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: tag goes for here in North America, and you know

925
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: sometimes those get up into six figures if they're being

926
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: auctioned off at like a Wild Cheap Foundation event or

927
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: something like like. And well, the so if you okay,

928
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:22,919
Speaker 1: if you're gonna go doll sheep hunt in Alaska. There's

929
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: no tag limitation right, generally no tag limitation. So if

930
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 1: you want to go this year, if you can find

931
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: an outfitter, he's gonna get tagged for you have if

932
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 1: you're a nonresident UM. If you're a nonresident and you

933
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: don't have a direct relative in Alaska, you can only

934
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: hunt doll sheep with a guide. That hunt is gonna

935
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: cost you to do, like a high quality doll hunt.

936
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: It's gonna cost you north of twenty grant. You can

937
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: spend more. You can get it for less, but expensive.

938
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: The most expensive tag that sells in the country every

939
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 1: year is what's called the Governor Is tag in Montana

940
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: UM for big horns, which lets you hunt. It gives

941
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: you the whole year and you pick your unit anywhere

942
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: in the state that's open to sheep hunting, and that

943
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: tag will sell UM for as high as more than

944
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: four hundred thousand dollars. It's the it's and it's pushed

945
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 1: up close to a half million dollars to hunt a

946
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 1: big horn. But the guys that do that then go

947
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: hunt along the Missouri breaks where the biggest big horns

948
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: in the country are killed. UM so you get hunt

949
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 1: a hell of a lot of Marco polos for what

950
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: it would cost you to buy a governor's tag and

951
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 1: shoot it. All Western states governors tags usually go for it.

952
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say, Oh, most Western states big horn governors

953
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: tags go for more than one dollars. Yeah, and I

954
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: with the Marco polo hunt. Man, there may be cases

955
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: of them getting into the six figures, but the numbers

956
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: I've heard thrown around are in like the twenty dollar

957
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: range for a Marco Polo hunt. Yeah, that was a

958
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: lot more expensive than that. Yeah, And and what you're

959
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: all in maybe it is, Well, yeah, that's the thing,

960
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 1: like the logistics of getting there, and you know, the

961
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: logistics of traveling with a firearm. I have no idea

962
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 1: what it would even entail to bring a rifle into

963
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: China if that's an option. China is much more restrictive

964
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 1: in terms of the the management of the public's possession

965
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: of firearms. It's it's virtually prohibited for the common citizen

966
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: of China to be in possession of a firearms draconian man. Yeah,

967
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 1: you're controlling a Popwell we'll say that, so there you are. Yeah,

968
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 1: so I went presented at this conference UM in in

969
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: Shin John Province and then had a chance to go

970
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: up and visit this park where historically um the ability

971
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 1: to offer a limited number of Marco Polo our Gali

972
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: sheep ram hunts was an important element of conservation on

973
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 1: the landscape and some of the primary it was funding

974
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 1: it was it was funding a couple of things, you know,

975
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: first and foremost, it put a large finance. It attached

976
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 1: a large financial value to an animal that otherwise might

977
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: be poached and reduced to the value of you know,

978
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 1: a plate of food. And this this conversation, actually it's

979
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 1: kind of it's uncomfortable for me to be thinking in

980
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: these terms, right, Like the notion that this animal has

981
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: this high dollar value on the landscape to the point

982
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: where somebody wouldn't want to eat it because it's only

983
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 1: worth as much of its food as I'm saying that,

984
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 1: it kind of makes me when you have that conversation

985
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: and it's a it's a valid converse station around rhinos, elephants, okay,

986
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 1: where it's generally you're generally talking about um depleted resources totally. Yeah. Yeah,

987
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 1: so you you take away you disincentivize poaching because people

988
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: recognize if I leave that thing out there, that the

989
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: financial gains for my community will far exceed the caloric

990
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 1: gains I will have from consuming that animal. Then the

991
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 1: other thing is, uh, that's a limiting factor is poor

992
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 1: range condition. So we're talking about a landscape where, um,

993
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 1: pastoralists have been grazing livestock predominantly yaks for thousands of years.

994
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to pretend to be an expert

995
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 1: on the range conditions up there, but um, the general

996
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: kind of lay of the land was a very mode

997
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 1: appearing kind of rolling hills, not as rugged as I

998
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: would have sspected, but just not like a preponderance of

999
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 1: forage for domestic or wild species to consume. Um. So

1000
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 1: part of the goal, my understanding is, was to work

1001
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 1: towards reductions of the amount of livestock grazing in occupied

1002
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: sheep habitat in that landscape. It's kind of a twofold conservation.

1003
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: So if you're going to do that, you had to

1004
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 1: bring in some sort of cash economy. Yeah. So in

1005
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: two thousand six, apparently, as the stories go that I've

1006
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: heard from my friends who are natural resource managers in China,

1007
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: the Chinese government wanted to revisit their policies around managing

1008
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: this trophy hunting program, and as part of that process,

1009
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: at some point, we're seeking some public engagement in the conversation.

1010
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: And it was a surprise to the public this hunting

1011
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: program existed, and there was sort of a public outcry

1012
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 1: against having this sport hunting taking place where foreigners were

1013
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 1: coming into China paying big money to hunt these big

1014
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 1: game species. So there was a moratorium placed on the

1015
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 1: sport hunting program in two thousand and six, and my

1016
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 1: understanding is that that has persisted through now that there's

1017
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: still no sport hunting program. So putting that part of

1018
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: hunting in China aside, there is a lot of uh,

1019
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 1: people going out into the woods and killing animals for

1020
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: their consumption. Um, pop hunters, pot hunters, there's definitely a

1021
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 1: lot of that. And one of the but I guess

1022
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: pot hunters kind of implies illegal take. Yeah, And so

1023
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 1: it's interesting to be in a country where, um, you know,

1024
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: you're you're you're trying to get your bearings in a

1025
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 1: lot of way as right. So I was very much

1026
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 1: on a steep learning curve about the ecology of the system,

1027
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:13,439
Speaker 1: the social dynamics, the political dynamics, and I think there's

1028
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 1: a lot of gray area around the amount of risk

1029
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 1: someone is taking in pot hunting, if want to use

1030
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: that term, um, you know, going out and killing let's

1031
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: say a wild board that they're going to bring home

1032
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 1: and eat. I think a fair bit of that in

1033
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: these really remote rural communities is essentially condoned and not

1034
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: likely to result in anybody being prosecuted. But I also

1035
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: think it's not really legal, and I and I know

1036
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: that there's a fair bit of ah essentially corruption around

1037
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: the subject. So one of the nature reserves where I worked,

1038
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 1: as an example, I would routinely spend the morning doing

1039
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 1: some field work, come in for lunch, and then go

1040
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 1: back out in the afternoon for more field to work.

1041
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: And at the reserve headquarters as part of a uh

1042
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: eco tourism model, they had a hotel with a restaurant

1043
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 1: and I would stay at this hotel and the mountains

1044
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: were like right out the back. It was a beautiful

1045
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: place to work. And one day I came back from

1046
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: my field work and there were a load of police cars,

1047
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: like dozens of police cars that were there, and they

1048
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 1: were having a meeting of police officers from all around

1049
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: the surrounding communities and they had all come to this

1050
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 1: place as a gathering point. And I went in for lunch,

1051
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 1: sat down, and the waitress came out to take my order,

1052
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 1: and she asked me if I would be interested in

1053
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 1: trying any mount jack. Mm hmm, I was like, mount jack.

1054
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 1: We're in a nature reserve. And it turned out, based

1055
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: on what she had told me, that these police who

1056
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: were there for the convention in the nature reserve had

1057
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 1: gone out killed some mount jack for their lunch inside

1058
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: the reserve, and she was offering to share some of

1059
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 1: this meat with me. So you have the law enforcement

1060
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 1: officers there participating in what, based on my my understanding

1061
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: of the situation, would be a clearly illegal activity if

1062
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: anybody else was to engage in it, but essentially doing

1063
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 1: so with impunity. So that's an example. There was also

1064
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 1: a case that I heard about another police officer accidentally

1065
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 1: shooting a villager by mistaking the villager for a wild boar.

1066
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 1: That was his defense that he had missed mistaken this

1067
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: human being in the thick brush for a boar that

1068
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 1: he was out trying to hunt, and that guy was

1069
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 1: prosecuted for shooting the dude. He didn't kill him, but

1070
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 1: he shot the guy. And the whole conversation about well,

1071
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: what about the fact he was out there hunting? Isn't

1072
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 1: that illegal? And the reason I was digging into this

1073
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:57,920
Speaker 1: stuff and asking these questions I was I was kind

1074
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 1: of curious, like, I wonder what it takes if, you know,

1075
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: if somebody wanted to go hunting here. So I was

1076
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: always kind of trying to feel out the situation and

1077
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: get a handle on what people were doing. But in

1078
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: terms of asiatic black bears, a lot of the poaching

1079
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 1: that happens there is a result of direct conflict between

1080
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 1: humans and the bears. So are they as bad as

1081
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:23,519
Speaker 1: uh or is prone to getting into tangles with people

1082
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: as grizzlies or just worse than black bears, but not

1083
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 1: as bad as grizzlies. It's a it's a it's a

1084
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: good question. I think. You know, obviously, if a person

1085
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 1: gets into a tangle with the grizzly, I think the

1086
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 1: outcome is probably more likely to be fatal. But there

1087
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:46,480
Speaker 1: were instances. In fact, during the research I was conducting

1088
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 1: um down in you Non Province. In one of my

1089
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,679
Speaker 1: study sites, there was a guy who tried to run

1090
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 1: a bear out of one of his corn fields and

1091
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: the bear turned around and killed the guy while we

1092
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:01,519
Speaker 1: were working there, and you know the people. It was

1093
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:04,799
Speaker 1: actually kind of an upsetting deal because I was traveling

1094
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 1: from reserve to reserve and I'd kind of gotten to

1095
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 1: know folks in the on the staff of these different

1096
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: nature reserves, and they knew I was like the the

1097
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 1: foreigner bear researcher, and so I got to this. I

1098
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 1: got to this dinner one night after a long day

1099
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 1: of traveling, and this guy who worked on the reserve

1100
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 1: came running up to me. And my Chinese has never

1101
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 1: been great, and oftentimes, like virtually all the time, I'd

1102
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 1: be communicating through a translator. This guy came running straight

1103
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:33,920
Speaker 1: up to me with his camera. He like he really

1104
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:36,599
Speaker 1: wanted to show me something, and I had no idea,

1105
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:38,840
Speaker 1: like you know what he wanted to show me. So

1106
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 1: I start flipping through these pictures and there were pictures

1107
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:44,600
Speaker 1: that were taking of this this guy's corpse, after the

1108
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 1: after the bear malling, and they're pretty grotesque photos. It

1109
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 1: was pretty upsetting stuff. So the conflicts between black bears

1110
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:57,479
Speaker 1: and um farmers in these communities are very real. I mean,

1111
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 1: crops get rated livestock are depredated and people are not armed,

1112
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:07,240
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of poisoning, a lot of snaring. UM.

1113
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,639
Speaker 1: And then there are these incentives. So not only does

1114
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 1: the black bear represent you know, this this difficulty for

1115
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:20,679
Speaker 1: your livelihood, this animal that comes in poses a threat

1116
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 1: to you physically, has the potential to decimate your crops,

1117
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 1: has the potential to destroy your apiaries because a lot

1118
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 1: of people were keeping bees in that country, Um, has

1119
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 1: the potentially kill your goats. But there's the quick, justt

1120
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: physical description of the bear compared to are really really

1121
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:43,080
Speaker 1: similar to American black bears in terms of size and

1122
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 1: kind of physical structure. Um, they have a more a longer,

1123
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,640
Speaker 1: kind of more pronounced mane around their neck. And then

1124
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 1: the classic distinguishing characteristic is the crescent moon on their chest.

1125
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 1: So one of the common names given to the Asiatic

1126
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:04,320
Speaker 1: black bears the moon bear. Have this beautiful white animal

1127
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 1: moon bear. So aside from you know, all of the

1128
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 1: perceived and real difficulties of coexisting with that species, for

1129
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 1: these folks who live who overlap habitats with the bear, um,

1130
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 1: these animals have a huge price tag attached to them.

1131
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 1: And there are two reasons for that one is the

1132
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 1: value of their gall bladder, which is a key ingredient

1133
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: in traditional Chinese medicines UM. And the other one is

1134
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:37,720
Speaker 1: that their paws are a key ingredient in one of

1135
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 1: the most epic feasts that exists anywhere in the world.

1136
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:48,200
Speaker 1: And have you ever eaten bear paw? Janny, You're eaten

1137
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:53,639
Speaker 1: a bear paw. So there's this feast called the Manchu

1138
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 1: Han Imperial Feast, and depending on who you ask, it

1139
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,120
Speaker 1: has somewhere between a hundred and eighty four and three

1140
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,639
Speaker 1: hundred twenty different dishes spans over the course of three

1141
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 1: days three days. And this feast first took place during

1142
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:13,839
Speaker 1: the Qing dynasty and Ching dynasty was like mid sixteen

1143
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 1: hundreds until the early nineteen hundreds, and it was exclusively

1144
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 1: for um. The elites right like emperors would be the

1145
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 1: people consuming this, and very elaborate um. You know, basically

1146
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:34,240
Speaker 1: you'd go from meal to snacking, to another meal, two

1147
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 1: more snacking, and everything was all these exotic, difficult to

1148
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:43,880
Speaker 1: obtain ingredients, so includes things like, uh, eating the birds

1149
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 1: nests that are made out of birds saliva. They make

1150
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 1: that into soup that I've messed around trying to make

1151
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 1: that with with you know, uh, swallows nests here swallows.

1152
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:57,680
Speaker 1: That sounds like I can never distract the stuff I

1153
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,160
Speaker 1: was after out of it. Yeah doesn't. I didn't have

1154
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 1: any luck with it. I think they consummated. Yeah, they

1155
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 1: thicken consummatee with it because the bird picks up sticks

1156
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,360
Speaker 1: or mud and coasted with a saliva, and his slave

1157
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:16,240
Speaker 1: is like sticky. And then you take that stuff and

1158
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:21,120
Speaker 1: boil it down in it extract and it liquefies it

1159
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:23,560
Speaker 1: and then you reduce it down and your left with

1160
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 1: like a sticky substance that you use the thickened soup

1161
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:28,560
Speaker 1: and broth. Yeah, it's thought to have all kinds of

1162
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 1: medicinal benefits to I think one of the things it's

1163
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 1: believed to do is really improve the health of your skin.

1164
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:37,600
Speaker 1: And a lot of these different ingredients, do you know,

1165
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 1: according to traditional Chinese medicine, and some of it's been

1166
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 1: validated by you know, Western medicinal tests as well. You know,

1167
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:49,719
Speaker 1: like some of these ingredients are certainly bioactive, and bare

1168
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:54,719
Speaker 1: bile is one of those things that is a bioactive ingredient.

1169
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:59,680
Speaker 1: It has medicinal properties, but that that same chemical can

1170
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:02,720
Speaker 1: be manufactured in a laboratory setting. But can we hold

1171
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:05,600
Speaker 1: up on us from it, because yeah, for most of

1172
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 1: my life, when you killed the black bear in the US,

1173
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:12,800
Speaker 1: you were not allowed to even have in your possession

1174
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:20,080
Speaker 1: the bears gall bladder. And then do you know about this?

1175
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:23,360
Speaker 1: What I know about this is that they've busted some

1176
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:28,160
Speaker 1: major poaching operations, including you know in the Great Lake States,

1177
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 1: there was one in Minnesota for pause, pausing. But I

1178
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 1: think now you're allowed to have you're you're allowed to

1179
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:36,799
Speaker 1: have it, but not sell it. Like you can retain

1180
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 1: your own bears, So so rather than screwing with you

1181
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:45,720
Speaker 1: on what you use, you can retain your own thing,

1182
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 1: but it cannot be sold. Yeah, it's interesting to you know,

1183
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 1: to forbid someone from fully utilizing and you know, parts

1184
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,639
Speaker 1: of an animal that they would want to potentially, yeah,

1185
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: make it's been legally, it's like legally take you can

1186
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 1: understand where it's coming from, because we know that these

1187
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 1: parts are being circulated around the globe. Like there's almost

1188
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 1: certainly right now somebody somewhere in Asia consuming an American

1189
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 1: black bear gallbladder in some product. As you and I

1190
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:20,760
Speaker 1: are speaking, my body um found some bears that had

1191
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:27,680
Speaker 1: just had the pause removed where in Virginia? Yea, So

1192
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,760
Speaker 1: people everybody knows, I mean, most people are aware of

1193
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:34,200
Speaker 1: the fact that there's this market for ingredients involved with

1194
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 1: traditional Chinese medicine. That's kind of a wildlife conservation challenge

1195
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:41,519
Speaker 1: that a lot of folks are aware of. But this

1196
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 1: thing about the bear pause is something fewer folks realize.

1197
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 1: So this Imperial feast, the bear paw is served sometimes

1198
01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 1: along with sturgeon as one of the ingredients, one of

1199
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 1: the one of the key dishes in this Emperor's feast,

1200
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 1: So it's kind of a prestigious dish to be serving.

1201
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 1: A lot of folks are aware of the Emperor's feast.

1202
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 1: Other things on that menu include like being curred simmered

1203
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 1: in various bird brains like cuckoo brain and chicken brain.

1204
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:24,920
Speaker 1: So it's it's a wild list of dishes. And the

1205
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:28,040
Speaker 1: longer list, the one that totals three twenty includes a

1206
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 1: hundred ninety six main dishes and a hundred and twenty

1207
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:33,800
Speaker 1: four snack dishes spread over the course of three days.

1208
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 1: The first time this place, the first place this particular

1209
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:40,240
Speaker 1: meal was ever served, was in the Forbidden City, so

1210
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 1: in in Beijing. So there's like there's a history of

1211
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:48,560
Speaker 1: bear paw being consumed by the elites and it persists

1212
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 1: to this point in time. So from a conservation standpoint,

1213
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:55,400
Speaker 1: you have this animal, asiatic black bear that presents all

1214
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:57,960
Speaker 1: of these difficulties in your life, and then in the

1215
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 1: meantime has this huge you know, dollar sign or yuan

1216
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 1: sign in China over its head and to give you

1217
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:13,400
Speaker 1: an idea, and that together can inspire some illegal take. Yes, yeah,

1218
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 1: so bare Bile. I was looking up some facts on

1219
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 1: this front, and bare Bile, the going rate is as

1220
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:22,720
Speaker 1: high as like close to seven ounce. And to put

1221
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 1: that in perspective, the current price of gold when I

1222
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:31,400
Speaker 1: checked a couple of days ago, was sixty eight dollars

1223
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 1: and ounce, so it's about half the price of gold

1224
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:42,040
Speaker 1: by weight, this Bile. And so from a an outside perspective,

1225
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:44,799
Speaker 1: you know, initially you can be like, man, these villagers,

1226
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 1: there's such a problem, you know, killing these bears, that

1227
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:51,120
Speaker 1: there's a there's this conservation concern over But then you

1228
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:53,080
Speaker 1: spend some time in these villages and you you see

1229
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:56,040
Speaker 1: how hard people are working to scrape by and it

1230
01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:58,720
Speaker 1: doesn't take long, at least it didn't take long for me.

1231
01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 1: To come to the conclusion if I would is living

1232
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 1: in this setting and I was trying to support my

1233
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 1: family here, it would be not much of a stretch

1234
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:10,120
Speaker 1: for me to see myself trying to poach one of

1235
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:13,640
Speaker 1: these bears and market it. Because there's there's just so

1236
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,840
Speaker 1: so many incentives stacked up on top of each other,

1237
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,799
Speaker 1: so it's it's pretty easy to empathize with those folks.

1238
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:27,000
Speaker 1: And one of the villages where I was doing this work, um,

1239
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 1: there's a nature reserve called Yallah that's down in southern

1240
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: Sichuan Province. And you know a cool thing about traveling

1241
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 1: in these remote hinter lands of China. Everywhere you go,

1242
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 1: people are just wanting to meet you because they don't

1243
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:44,560
Speaker 1: see a lot of Westerners. So I got to this

1244
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 1: village after a very long car ride. Village is called

1245
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:52,680
Speaker 1: show Yaw and we're having dinner with a bunch of

1246
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:57,280
Speaker 1: the local folks there, and I met a gentleman who

1247
01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:00,120
Speaker 1: was going to be helping us with field where and

1248
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:04,280
Speaker 1: the guy was, you know, he was pretty relatively old

1249
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:05,880
Speaker 1: to be out working in the mountains all day, like

1250
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 1: he was probably somewhere in his early sixties or so,

1251
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:13,720
Speaker 1: I would say. And through the translator. He made this

1252
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 1: comment saying, you know, we don't we don't see a

1253
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:22,439
Speaker 1: lot of white people here, and in fact, you guys

1254
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 1: are some of the first white people who have visited

1255
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:29,600
Speaker 1: this village since the president's kids were here. I was like,

1256
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:32,560
Speaker 1: the president's kids, what you was this? What year was

1257
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:35,559
Speaker 1: it that I was there? Would have been two thousand

1258
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:38,760
Speaker 1: and ten probably, I'm like the president's kids. I'm like,

1259
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:40,479
Speaker 1: what are you? What are you talking about? And so

1260
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:42,160
Speaker 1: the guy goes on to say, you know, the president

1261
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: who's famous for conservation. And this is all through a translator, right,

1262
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:50,439
Speaker 1: I'm like, the president who's famous for conservation. He's like, yeah,

1263
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:54,760
Speaker 1: when when I was a small boy, my dad this

1264
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:56,760
Speaker 1: is this is the sixth year old guy talking. My

1265
01:19:56,920 --> 01:20:00,599
Speaker 1: dad was a guide for the President's son when when

1266
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:05,760
Speaker 1: they came here to hunt for a panda. No, yes,

1267
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 1: And I was like, wait a minute. Roosevelt. Roosevelt's sons

1268
01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 1: Kermit and Ted, So we're panda hunters? Yes they were,

1269
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:17,920
Speaker 1: so man, that's something that would not go over well

1270
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:21,400
Speaker 1: these days. So I started jointing people. Get piste. When

1271
01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:26,360
Speaker 1: you shoot, yes ahead, I should give so well, we'll

1272
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:27,800
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about why they were there

1273
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 1: hunting pandas. But initially I was totally skeptical about this

1274
01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:31,960
Speaker 1: and like, you gotta be kidding me. But the guy,

1275
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:35,920
Speaker 1: like the fact that after driving for days, bouncing around

1276
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:38,800
Speaker 1: on these dirt roads and arriving at this village, the

1277
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 1: fact that this guy knows that there's a president who

1278
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:45,360
Speaker 1: has a conservation legacy. I thought that gave it some credibility.

1279
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:47,800
Speaker 1: Amazing because you know, if you were to go to

1280
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:51,519
Speaker 1: you know, a remote rural corner of the USA and

1281
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:54,479
Speaker 1: asked him about the Chinese leader a hundred years ago,

1282
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:57,479
Speaker 1: they're not going to know much. Dude. People watch us

1283
01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:01,160
Speaker 1: so much more closely than we watched them. Yeah, fair point.

1284
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:05,960
Speaker 1: I still felt like it led some credibility. So I'm

1285
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:08,840
Speaker 1: thinking myself, if this is true, this is just two

1286
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:10,640
Speaker 1: epic of a story. I've got to capture like as

1287
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:13,320
Speaker 1: many details as I can capture. So I started jotting

1288
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:16,760
Speaker 1: down notes, um. And then when I got back to

1289
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:20,280
Speaker 1: the USA, I started doing some digging. And the guy

1290
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:22,960
Speaker 1: who was with me, his name was Suggio Muji, and

1291
01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 1: his dad's name was Sugio Shila, and I caught that

1292
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:28,920
Speaker 1: those details from the stories and this is all through

1293
01:21:28,920 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 1: a translator. As we're out doing the field work for

1294
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 1: my project, and when I came back to the USA,

1295
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:42,000
Speaker 1: I learned about the Kelly Roosevelt's Asiatic expedition, which included

1296
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:46,320
Speaker 1: a detailed account of them traveling to this exact place

1297
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:49,120
Speaker 1: on the map and at like a blow by blow

1298
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:54,920
Speaker 1: story of them finding and returning to Western science the

1299
01:21:55,080 --> 01:21:58,160
Speaker 1: first specimen of a panda bear. So they were like

1300
01:21:58,280 --> 01:22:01,320
Speaker 1: their old man and that they specimen hunters. They were.

1301
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So on that expedition, and this wasn't

1302
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 1: the first, but on that particular expedition, in addition to

1303
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:11,320
Speaker 1: bringing back the panda, they brought back more than five

1304
01:22:11,439 --> 01:22:14,800
Speaker 1: thousand bird skins from that trip. So they're just they're

1305
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 1: shooting everything. And this was in the era the old

1306
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:19,720
Speaker 1: Man was very heavily involved in that as well. For

1307
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:24,920
Speaker 1: a long time. That was biology. Yes, absolutely, we're still

1308
01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 1: in it, like you gotta realized, in his era. Okay,

1309
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 1: so late eighteen we were still in a descriptive phase, yes,

1310
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:43,360
Speaker 1: cataloging what was here. Yeah, and a big like in

1311
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:48,640
Speaker 1: a thing that Roosevelt like when he wanted to be

1312
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:51,840
Speaker 1: a biologist, that's what he thought that that was. Yeah,

1313
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:56,479
Speaker 1: I'm not taking anything away from this. I'm not like

1314
01:22:56,640 --> 01:22:58,680
Speaker 1: yelling at you about it, but I'm just saying, like,

1315
01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:03,760
Speaker 1: it's just like audible you mentioned like Audubon, Audubon, shoot it,

1316
01:23:07,280 --> 01:23:13,320
Speaker 1: um Darwin. It was a specimen hunter that was biology

1317
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:19,400
Speaker 1: like comparative analysis of dead ship laying on a table. Yeah.

1318
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 1: Now there's a string of these, and so the cool

1319
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 1: thing about that experience, you know, I'd learned a little

1320
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:29,000
Speaker 1: bit about about tr at that point, but it opened

1321
01:23:29,080 --> 01:23:32,520
Speaker 1: up all these stories about the next generation of the Roosevelts,

1322
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:36,200
Speaker 1: and that's some of the most interesting you know, some

1323
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 1: of the most interesting stories that are out there are

1324
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:44,360
Speaker 1: around Kermit and Ted and some of their adventures Kermit ted. Yeah. Yeah.

1325
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 1: So Roosevelt had a daughter, Um with his first wife,

1326
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:51,840
Speaker 1: and she died during delivery of that daughter. Then he

1327
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 1: went on to remarry a childhood friend of his and

1328
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,600
Speaker 1: they proceeded to have I believe five more children that

1329
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:03,640
Speaker 1: were included I think four boys and a girl. And

1330
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,960
Speaker 1: the first two sons, Ted was the oldest and Kermit

1331
01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 1: was the second oldest, and they went gallivanting on these

1332
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:15,000
Speaker 1: adventures with their dad. So I know you're into suggested readings.

1333
01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 1: There was a there was a trip that Kermit and

1334
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:24,599
Speaker 1: Teddy Senior, the President took um exploring the River of Doubt.

1335
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:29,160
Speaker 1: That was nineteen nineteen fourteen, that expedition, and it damn

1336
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:32,080
Speaker 1: near killed Teddy Roosevelt. He was he was threatening to

1337
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:35,599
Speaker 1: overdose on morphine so as to not be a hindrance

1338
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:37,920
Speaker 1: to the rest of the party and the drama of

1339
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:40,280
Speaker 1: that trip they had. They had one guy, one of

1340
01:24:40,320 --> 01:24:43,920
Speaker 1: the most skilled canoe handlers on that trip, drown, You

1341
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:48,400
Speaker 1: had another guy get murdered. You had Teddy Roosevelt so

1342
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:52,559
Speaker 1: sick with malaria that he was threatening basically to overdose

1343
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:55,000
Speaker 1: and commit suicide so as to not slow the party down.

1344
01:24:56,000 --> 01:25:00,400
Speaker 1: You had Kermit saying to his dad, if you all yourself,

1345
01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:02,080
Speaker 1: you're going to be more of a burden because I

1346
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:04,559
Speaker 1: am guaranteeing you were going to bring your body out

1347
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:06,120
Speaker 1: of here, and it's gonna be harder to lug your

1348
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 1: corpse than to have you helping us move your sick

1349
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:13,200
Speaker 1: self out of here. They were down to like so

1350
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 1: little the what's some larity drug quinine? Is that right?

1351
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:20,640
Speaker 1: By saying that right? So the rarium I think it was.

1352
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:26,080
Speaker 1: It's like what they used to tonic water was something

1353
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:30,040
Speaker 1: that in the British Empire. It was like a malarial

1354
01:25:31,240 --> 01:25:34,760
Speaker 1: preventative drink like tonic waters. Quiet was like Solda water

1355
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:37,599
Speaker 1: with quinine and the sweetener in it. Yeah, so they're

1356
01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 1: doubt that they have this. They have like a ration

1357
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:45,520
Speaker 1: of quinine for the trip. And Ah, Kermit had malaria

1358
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:50,760
Speaker 1: as well, and he he was basically foregoing treatment and

1359
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:54,519
Speaker 1: given it to his dad and the doctors finally forced

1360
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 1: him to take an injection of it because he was

1361
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:58,720
Speaker 1: all messed up but didn't want to admit it. So

1362
01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:01,360
Speaker 1: they got back in Later in life. You know, Teddy

1363
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:06,960
Speaker 1: either here as doctor at one point claimed that like

1364
01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 1: years of his life had been shaved off. It might

1365
01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 1: have been a doctor who after Teddy's death said, yeah,

1366
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:13,600
Speaker 1: he would have had that malaria case, he would have

1367
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:17,040
Speaker 1: lived another ten years. So it was a rugged, gnarly trip.

1368
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:21,760
Speaker 1: And Kermit and and Ted they did another They had

1369
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:26,759
Speaker 1: done a previous uh asiatic expedition in the nineteen twenties,

1370
01:26:27,479 --> 01:26:29,639
Speaker 1: and they published a book from that expedition as well,

1371
01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:31,320
Speaker 1: and that the title that book is East of the

1372
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:34,680
Speaker 1: Sun and West of the Moon. So the expedition that

1373
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:37,920
Speaker 1: involved the hunting of the panda. They published a book,

1374
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:40,479
Speaker 1: Trailing the Giant Panda. I got a copy of this

1375
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:43,920
Speaker 1: book after hown like scrounging libraries all over the country

1376
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:46,080
Speaker 1: to try to find a copy of this book, And

1377
01:26:46,280 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 1: everything in the in the account lined up perfectly with

1378
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:53,920
Speaker 1: what this dude told me. A hard hunt. It actually

1379
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:57,160
Speaker 1: was surprisingly hard. And what what made the big difference

1380
01:26:57,240 --> 01:26:58,760
Speaker 1: was the fact that they had a snow come in

1381
01:26:59,040 --> 01:27:01,320
Speaker 1: and they were able to pick set of tracks in

1382
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:05,640
Speaker 1: a bamboo thicket and trail the bear after I mean

1383
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:12,559
Speaker 1: they they had walked and ridden on horseback countless miles

1384
01:27:12,760 --> 01:27:15,439
Speaker 1: in search of a bear, and then finally, in this

1385
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:19,479
Speaker 1: what is now the Yella Nature Reserve and southern Sichuan,

1386
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:22,719
Speaker 1: they finally bumped into a man who knew the mountain

1387
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:25,200
Speaker 1: well enough to get him to the right place, and

1388
01:27:26,479 --> 01:27:29,439
Speaker 1: they cut the track of a panda, and the story goes,

1389
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:32,680
Speaker 1: then they're nibbling on some bamboot. Yeah, so the bear

1390
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:35,479
Speaker 1: ended up and here they come. Yeah, if I remember right,

1391
01:27:36,040 --> 01:27:41,439
Speaker 1: the bear was like in the process of disappearing into

1392
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:48,479
Speaker 1: the thicket as both sons fired simultaneously, taking this panda bear.

1393
01:27:49,200 --> 01:27:51,360
Speaker 1: And then then you know, they came back to the US,

1394
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:54,240
Speaker 1: and in addition to all the all the other skins

1395
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:58,280
Speaker 1: they had, they had the first panda delivered to Western Science.

1396
01:27:58,479 --> 01:28:01,240
Speaker 1: And if anybody's interested in seeing this panda, it is

1397
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:04,200
Speaker 1: on display in Chicago at the Field Museum right now

1398
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:10,599
Speaker 1: as we speak, and has been ever since. No No Kermit, Kermit,

1399
01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:14,200
Speaker 1: Kermit and Ted and the amount of adventures that guy

1400
01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:17,599
Speaker 1: got mixed up in who are we talking t r oh, Yeah,

1401
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:22,280
Speaker 1: like Cuba for example, everything how he became president. So

1402
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:29,360
Speaker 1: McKinley president gets killed by an anarchist. Yeah, he becomes president.

1403
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 1: He gets shot, his glasses in his pocket deflect the speech.

1404
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:39,439
Speaker 1: He had, like such a lengthy speech, and it was

1405
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 1: folded up enough times in his pocket that in conjunction

1406
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:46,400
Speaker 1: with his glasses case, it slowed down the slug enough

1407
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:49,479
Speaker 1: that it lodged inside his rib cage. And he knew

1408
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:51,439
Speaker 1: enough about anatomy. He knew he had been shot in

1409
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:53,560
Speaker 1: the chest, but the fact that he was he was

1410
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:57,280
Speaker 1: not coughing up blood led him to the conclusion that

1411
01:28:57,600 --> 01:28:59,880
Speaker 1: his lungs had not been perforated. And gave his speech

1412
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:01,880
Speaker 1: and and you know how he started off his speech

1413
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:06,280
Speaker 1: tougher than a bull moose, Ladies and gentlemen. This is

1414
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:08,880
Speaker 1: roughly what he said, Ladies and gentlemen. I'm not sure

1415
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:10,640
Speaker 1: if you're aware of this or not, but I've just

1416
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:13,679
Speaker 1: been shot. But it will take more than one bullet

1417
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:16,320
Speaker 1: to stop this old bull moose. And then he went

1418
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:19,800
Speaker 1: on to or right for a couple of hours. This

1419
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:23,840
Speaker 1: was in Milwaukee. See, that's that's the difference Lincoln. His

1420
01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:27,240
Speaker 1: speeches were so tidy and short that they wouldn't hit

1421
01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:31,320
Speaker 1: Like a Lincoln speech isn't gonna stop a bullet. That's

1422
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:36,679
Speaker 1: true because he wrote his best one on an envelope. Yeah,

1423
01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:41,240
Speaker 1: I was back in the old days. Short and sweet. Yeah,

1424
01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:43,960
Speaker 1: my old man always he like my my father was

1425
01:29:44,040 --> 01:29:46,519
Speaker 1: fond of that quote some people attribute to Mark Twain.

1426
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:52,120
Speaker 1: But it's ah, forgive the long letter. I didn't have

1427
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 1: time to write a short one. I don't know if

1428
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:57,360
Speaker 1: that's actually everybody attributes everything to Twain. Yeah, but I've

1429
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:00,040
Speaker 1: I've heard that one attributed to Twain by a a

1430
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:03,040
Speaker 1: number of folks too, so I think that I think

1431
01:30:03,080 --> 01:30:05,439
Speaker 1: that might be valid. But yeah, it was like I

1432
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:08,240
Speaker 1: had a little, a little chill go down my spine

1433
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:12,680
Speaker 1: when this when this guy in all southern China is like, oh, yeah,

1434
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:14,439
Speaker 1: the president's sons are here. We haven't seen a lot

1435
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 1: of white people around here since then. It was it

1436
01:30:17,240 --> 01:30:22,760
Speaker 1: was pretty cool. So do they have, um, do they

1437
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:27,920
Speaker 1: have populated wildlife populations that like are even capable of

1438
01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:37,639
Speaker 1: sustainable harvest? Yeah? Absolutely, So they could have sustainable regulated hunting. Yeah,

1439
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:41,920
Speaker 1: not enough, you know, not enough. The ratio of people

1440
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:46,400
Speaker 1: to hunting opportunity would be so high, so much higher

1441
01:30:46,439 --> 01:30:49,040
Speaker 1: than in the USA. But yeah, I mean a lot.

1442
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:54,599
Speaker 1: You know, one of the interesting species I encountered during

1443
01:30:54,640 --> 01:30:58,320
Speaker 1: my field work was bumping into pheasants in their native habitat.

1444
01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:01,559
Speaker 1: You know, I'd be hooking around looking for bear scats

1445
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:03,599
Speaker 1: as part of my research. I mean, man, this looks

1446
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:06,560
Speaker 1: like some pretty good bird cover. I was like the

1447
01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:10,519
Speaker 1: rooster and go cackling off. Yeah. Yeah. And then you know,

1448
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:14,160
Speaker 1: driving around on mountain roads, come around the bend and uh,

1449
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:16,519
Speaker 1: in the middle of the two track there would be

1450
01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:21,080
Speaker 1: a golden pheasant standing there, a wild golden pheasant. And

1451
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:28,560
Speaker 1: they look they're so just incredibly bright gold in their coloration.

1452
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:32,000
Speaker 1: They look like they have to be fake. But yeah,

1453
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:34,479
Speaker 1: they tried to get people have tried to get golden

1454
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:41,640
Speaker 1: pheasants established here in the US. Yeah. Why, that's a

1455
01:31:41,680 --> 01:31:43,960
Speaker 1: good question. I don't know. I don't know. I mean,

1456
01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:46,679
Speaker 1: they're you know, I love hunting. I love hunting pheasants,

1457
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:49,000
Speaker 1: but I do feel like, and I mentioned earlier that

1458
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:51,519
Speaker 1: I've had a great time hunting these ibex down in

1459
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:54,040
Speaker 1: the Florida Mountains of southern New Mexico, and that is

1460
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:56,960
Speaker 1: I think one of the toughest archery hunts probably anywhere

1461
01:31:57,520 --> 01:32:00,920
Speaker 1: in the world. It's an early hunt. Uh, but there

1462
01:32:01,160 --> 01:32:06,680
Speaker 1: is something, in my opinion, detracted from the experience when

1463
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:09,120
Speaker 1: you know the animal that you're hunting is not indigenous

1464
01:32:09,160 --> 01:32:11,559
Speaker 1: to the landscape where you're hunting. Oh. Yeah, man, that's

1465
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:16,799
Speaker 1: why I couldn't really, I couldn't. I couldn't really deeply

1466
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 1: enjoy hunting in New Zealand. All of the wildlife, not

1467
01:32:21,439 --> 01:32:24,240
Speaker 1: all the wildlife, all of the huntable wildlife is non

1468
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 1: native and doesn't have like a historic context on the ground.

1469
01:32:30,240 --> 01:32:33,400
Speaker 1: Now I'm full of hypocrisies because I'll hunt turkeys in

1470
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:38,120
Speaker 1: states that aren't native turkey range. Um. I like the

1471
01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 1: hunt wild pigs, but I don't like hunting them as

1472
01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:44,880
Speaker 1: much as I like hunting the native stuff. At the

1473
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:48,760
Speaker 1: same time, I also like hunting in areas that have

1474
01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 1: a deep history of human interaction with the animals. You know.

1475
01:32:58,960 --> 01:33:02,800
Speaker 1: That's why I'm interesting in the Arctic. But I'm not

1476
01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:08,479
Speaker 1: interested in the Antarctic because it's absent of of of

1477
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:13,439
Speaker 1: of human history and absence of of uh a legacy

1478
01:33:13,479 --> 01:33:18,880
Speaker 1: of human interaction, human relationship with the wildlife. So it

1479
01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:22,479
Speaker 1: does detract from it for me. Now, my friend Remy,

1480
01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:25,320
Speaker 1: who likes to hunt in New Zealand a lot, you know,

1481
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:28,880
Speaker 1: he points out that there is like they've established a

1482
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:32,160
Speaker 1: culture of hunting, a cultural relationship with hunting, but there's

1483
01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:35,600
Speaker 1: just a big difference there where in New Zealand you

1484
01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:38,040
Speaker 1: might have a conversation like, or we should go hunt

1485
01:33:38,160 --> 01:33:44,320
Speaker 1: that area because the government cohlers haven't been in there lately.

1486
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:48,800
Speaker 1: So on one hand, you have government efforts to eradicate

1487
01:33:49,040 --> 01:33:55,640
Speaker 1: or greatly reduced wildlife populations because they're causing irreparable environmental

1488
01:33:55,720 --> 01:34:00,639
Speaker 1: damage according to some people, and you're also out trying

1489
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:07,400
Speaker 1: to do like, you know, a recreational sport hunting, the

1490
01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:10,080
Speaker 1: meat based sport hunting. It just it's just gets too

1491
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 1: damn confusing, you know. I just had a very difficult

1492
01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:18,960
Speaker 1: time enjoying it. Yeah. Yeah, And the same thing goes

1493
01:34:19,040 --> 01:34:23,000
Speaker 1: for the fisheries too, you know, like I would, I

1494
01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:29,559
Speaker 1: would rather and I do often hike into remote stream

1495
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:35,360
Speaker 1: sect sections where I can catch the indigenous trout that

1496
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:40,799
Speaker 1: exists there but which have been supplanted by non native

1497
01:34:40,920 --> 01:34:44,840
Speaker 1: trout farther downstream in the watersheds, you know, like there.

1498
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:49,519
Speaker 1: And and I would say the most beautiful pheasant I

1499
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:51,840
Speaker 1: have seen was that one that came cackling out of

1500
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 1: the thicket in China. I was like, oh, a native pheasant.

1501
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:57,439
Speaker 1: I've never seen that before. That was that was awesome.

1502
01:34:58,080 --> 01:35:00,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, your question that led to the sorry about

1503
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:02,800
Speaker 1: the pheasant is whether or not there's opportunities to hunt

1504
01:35:02,840 --> 01:35:08,280
Speaker 1: these species sustainably, and absolutely there would be. Um are

1505
01:35:08,360 --> 01:35:12,880
Speaker 1: the mechanisms in place to really manage it effectively at

1506
01:35:12,920 --> 01:35:15,400
Speaker 1: this point in time, not that I'm aware of. I mean,

1507
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:19,400
Speaker 1: you know, we have a whole infrastructure of game, game

1508
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:22,760
Speaker 1: and phish agencies operating essentially at our equivalent of the

1509
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:28,640
Speaker 1: province level, which they do not have, at least in

1510
01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:31,840
Speaker 1: a way that specializes around hunting and angling the way

1511
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:35,320
Speaker 1: ours do. Yeah, we've been toying with this for a

1512
01:35:35,439 --> 01:35:38,120
Speaker 1: hundred years here. Yeah, and I don't think we've got

1513
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:41,000
Speaker 1: it all perfected or figured out either. Frankly, we're getting

1514
01:35:41,439 --> 01:35:44,479
Speaker 1: We've got it pretty good, better than anywhere in the world.

1515
01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:48,080
Speaker 1: We got room to im We have a more sustainable system, yes,

1516
01:35:49,200 --> 01:35:53,679
Speaker 1: I agree, and we have room to improve. Yeah, Okay,

1517
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:57,439
Speaker 1: what do you feel we're not doing right? I feel

1518
01:35:57,520 --> 01:36:05,160
Speaker 1: like the most pressing needs, which are directly related, is

1519
01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:10,200
Speaker 1: a broader base of funding for conservation work, and linked

1520
01:36:10,280 --> 01:36:15,080
Speaker 1: directly to that is the notion of a consistently available

1521
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:21,680
Speaker 1: form of funding for non game conservation work. So I

1522
01:36:21,720 --> 01:36:25,040
Speaker 1: think you're familiar with the Blue Ribbon Panel project. Yeah,

1523
01:36:25,120 --> 01:36:27,120
Speaker 1: I am. I've been paying close attention to that, and

1524
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:28,439
Speaker 1: I got to say, some of the people who have

1525
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:32,719
Speaker 1: been involved with that work, Um, the soon to retire

1526
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:37,000
Speaker 1: director of Arizona Game of Fish Kindamed Larry Boyles, has

1527
01:36:37,040 --> 01:36:42,120
Speaker 1: been right in the middle of that work. And there's

1528
01:36:43,080 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 1: there's nobody I admire more than Larry as a conservationist

1529
01:36:46,040 --> 01:36:48,880
Speaker 1: right now. And so there's some brilliant minds who are

1530
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:52,760
Speaker 1: putting a lot of thought into how to address that need.

1531
01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:58,200
Speaker 1: But that is I would say the overarching um example

1532
01:36:58,280 --> 01:36:59,880
Speaker 1: of what I'm when I'm talking about what I'm saying,

1533
01:36:59,920 --> 01:37:01,680
Speaker 1: we don't have it all figured out yet. Yeah, we

1534
01:37:01,720 --> 01:37:03,600
Speaker 1: don't have the money figured out from one thing. You know,

1535
01:37:03,760 --> 01:37:05,920
Speaker 1: you're You're at a dinner that I was at at

1536
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:09,559
Speaker 1: in New Mexico and someone got up was talking about

1537
01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:13,880
Speaker 1: desert big horns doing desert bighorn conservation work, and he said,

1538
01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:20,720
Speaker 1: uh we we joke. In New Mexico the wildlife conservation

1539
01:37:21,479 --> 01:37:26,280
Speaker 1: comes down to water and money. But with desert big horns,

1540
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:31,639
Speaker 1: you don't even need the water, just the money. Yeah. Yeah,

1541
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:36,280
Speaker 1: And you know, desert big horns are I would say,

1542
01:37:36,400 --> 01:37:39,080
Speaker 1: one of the species that are probably easiest to raise

1543
01:37:39,160 --> 01:37:41,400
Speaker 1: funds for. You have a lot of a lot of

1544
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:45,800
Speaker 1: individuals and organizations with relatively deep pockets who are looking

1545
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:48,160
Speaker 1: to pony up money to support that work. And that's

1546
01:37:48,200 --> 01:37:51,400
Speaker 1: fantastic and I applaud that. I'm glad that's going on.

1547
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:55,160
Speaker 1: But I'm always that association with them being a game animal, yes,

1548
01:37:55,760 --> 01:38:00,200
Speaker 1: but I'm also a huge fan of and in act

1549
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:05,680
Speaker 1: biota that includes all of the obscure species that we

1550
01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:09,479
Speaker 1: can't shoot and eat, and I see those as being

1551
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:17,200
Speaker 1: key elements too. A fully rounded outdoor experience you know,

1552
01:38:17,640 --> 01:38:21,200
Speaker 1: like going out and this is an extreme example, but

1553
01:38:21,320 --> 01:38:24,680
Speaker 1: to go out on a an elk hunt and have

1554
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:27,640
Speaker 1: elk be the only thing you encounter would be a

1555
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:30,640
Speaker 1: very hollow experience. In my opinion, No gray J is

1556
01:38:30,680 --> 01:38:34,200
Speaker 1: no Stellar J is the pine squirrels. Yeah, And so

1557
01:38:34,479 --> 01:38:37,439
Speaker 1: weasels throw another J the opinion J because we're not

1558
01:38:37,479 --> 01:38:39,760
Speaker 1: worried about Stellar's J is too much around here, but

1559
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:43,000
Speaker 1: opinion j's we are. And it's hard to get money

1560
01:38:43,400 --> 01:38:47,639
Speaker 1: for UM funding the research or doing the conservation work

1561
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:51,040
Speaker 1: to support that species because the way we fund conservation

1562
01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:57,960
Speaker 1: through hunting and fishing souse like most like state level

1563
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:04,479
Speaker 1: conservation work is funded by hunters and fishermen, and hunters

1564
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:08,880
Speaker 1: and fishermen are interested in fishing game and so a

1565
01:39:08,960 --> 01:39:11,880
Speaker 1: lot of that money goes to support fishing game. But

1566
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:16,280
Speaker 1: there's the thinking that you're you're well aware of. There's

1567
01:39:16,320 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 1: a thinking that by taking care of these apex animals,

1568
01:39:24,920 --> 01:39:29,800
Speaker 1: UM you're taking care of that has a cascading effect.

1569
01:39:29,840 --> 01:39:33,880
Speaker 1: You're taking care of all these other things. Like it's

1570
01:39:33,920 --> 01:39:37,040
Speaker 1: a piece of rhetorics thrown out there right, that elk

1571
01:39:37,120 --> 01:39:41,960
Speaker 1: work often comes down to securing winning range water foul

1572
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:46,240
Speaker 1: work comes down to securing wetlands. When you secure wetlands,

1573
01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:52,280
Speaker 1: all things benefit. When you secure big riparian zones, all

1574
01:39:52,439 --> 01:39:56,920
Speaker 1: things benefit. So that's like a justification or a rationale

1575
01:39:57,640 --> 01:40:02,439
Speaker 1: that's put forward by groups who are investing very heavily

1576
01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:05,720
Speaker 1: in game animals when people bring up to them. But

1577
01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:09,240
Speaker 1: what about everything else? Yeah, and there there's validity to

1578
01:40:09,400 --> 01:40:13,320
Speaker 1: that argument. And I do think hunters and anglers, you know,

1579
01:40:13,479 --> 01:40:18,640
Speaker 1: we have a lot to feel really good about that

1580
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:22,599
Speaker 1: we have collectively accomplished and contributed to over the last

1581
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:28,360
Speaker 1: century plus. That being said, um, I think there are

1582
01:40:28,520 --> 01:40:32,040
Speaker 1: conservation opportunities missed as a result of inadequate funding for

1583
01:40:32,200 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 1: some of these others. And so where could the money

1584
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:36,559
Speaker 1: come from? Do you feel that other user group should

1585
01:40:36,560 --> 01:40:39,040
Speaker 1: be ponying up the way hunters and fishermen have ponied up,

1586
01:40:39,160 --> 01:40:41,439
Speaker 1: or how do you think it should go? I think

1587
01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:44,240
Speaker 1: are just hard funding from the federal government. Well, there's

1588
01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:47,200
Speaker 1: a few ways to skin that cat. Um. I think

1589
01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:52,200
Speaker 1: we've got some examples of success. You know, the ability

1590
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:55,920
Speaker 1: of the state of Minnesota, as an example, to pass

1591
01:40:55,960 --> 01:40:59,759
Speaker 1: an increase in their state sales tax um to support

1592
01:41:00,200 --> 01:41:06,559
Speaker 1: this interesting combination of conservation and the arts, Um, two

1593
01:41:06,680 --> 01:41:11,720
Speaker 1: things I'm interested in. Yeah, likewise, I mean, so there

1594
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:16,560
Speaker 1: there's an example. UM. I do think you know that

1595
01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:23,679
Speaker 1: people rightly point to Pittman, Robertson and Dingle Johnson as

1596
01:41:23,960 --> 01:41:31,960
Speaker 1: phenomenal advancements in our conservation model. And there's obviously applicability

1597
01:41:32,040 --> 01:41:34,280
Speaker 1: of that kind of an approach to all kinds of

1598
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:37,439
Speaker 1: other gear that people buy. And it's fascinating to look

1599
01:41:37,479 --> 01:41:42,960
Speaker 1: back at the history of those pieces of legislation being

1600
01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:47,040
Speaker 1: debated and discussed and how well supported they were by

1601
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:50,360
Speaker 1: the industry. And it's a little puzzling to me that

1602
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:56,759
Speaker 1: there's not similar support and leadership coming from private industry

1603
01:41:56,880 --> 01:42:01,680
Speaker 1: now to push for similar exercise taxes on all the

1604
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:06,880
Speaker 1: other stuff that outdoor enthusiasts by. And I personally I

1605
01:42:06,960 --> 01:42:11,360
Speaker 1: don't have any qualms about more people paying into the

1606
01:42:11,479 --> 01:42:17,800
Speaker 1: system and being vested as UH self identifying supporters of conservation.

1607
01:42:18,360 --> 01:42:21,599
Speaker 1: I think if we are able to approach discussions around

1608
01:42:22,720 --> 01:42:30,400
Speaker 1: UH consuming wildlife from a thoughtful place, which many of

1609
01:42:30,520 --> 01:42:37,800
Speaker 1: us can do well, those those discussions, I believe will

1610
01:42:38,920 --> 01:42:44,839
Speaker 1: open up the minds of other interested conservationists as opposed

1611
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:47,880
Speaker 1: to like digging our heels in and say no, we're

1612
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:50,320
Speaker 1: the ones who are paying for conservation, and you know

1613
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:52,880
Speaker 1: you're not You're not welcome here in our kind of

1614
01:42:52,960 --> 01:42:59,680
Speaker 1: decision space, that exclusive approach um that it feels kind

1615
01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:02,760
Speaker 1: of like trench digging to me, Like, yeah, but oftentimes

1616
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:05,840
Speaker 1: when other people come in and want to have opinions,

1617
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:11,639
Speaker 1: they go against our interests. And hunters have developed over

1618
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:15,720
Speaker 1: the last hundred years a sort of they kind of

1619
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:20,200
Speaker 1: a stake to claim on how wildlife decisions are made.

1620
01:43:21,400 --> 01:43:26,760
Speaker 1: And this, this conversation um is one I've had a

1621
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:28,519
Speaker 1: lot of times with a lot of people whom I

1622
01:43:29,120 --> 01:43:32,720
Speaker 1: really respect and admire, and I can understand that mindset,

1623
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:36,760
Speaker 1: but I also I have to kind of reject it

1624
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:41,160
Speaker 1: a little bit. And here's why I don't think in

1625
01:43:41,280 --> 01:43:47,759
Speaker 1: the long run, if we want to retain are hunting

1626
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:53,120
Speaker 1: and fishing rights as our culture changes around us, we

1627
01:43:53,240 --> 01:43:57,519
Speaker 1: have to be able to communicate about that with the

1628
01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:04,000
Speaker 1: broader community of non hunters, whether or not they're paying

1629
01:44:04,040 --> 01:44:06,920
Speaker 1: into the system. Because the fact of the matter is

1630
01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:13,559
Speaker 1: people can mount challenges to hunting and angling and trapping,

1631
01:44:14,280 --> 01:44:16,559
Speaker 1: whether they're buying into the system or not, and they

1632
01:44:16,600 --> 01:44:20,200
Speaker 1: have done that successfully. There are examples, you know, the chipping,

1633
01:44:20,479 --> 01:44:24,439
Speaker 1: legal challenges, legal challenge, Yeah, every election. So the notion

1634
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:28,160
Speaker 1: that we're gonna you know, we're gonna win in the

1635
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:32,000
Speaker 1: long run by digging trenches and not be able and

1636
01:44:32,200 --> 01:44:41,639
Speaker 1: and not effectively with an openness to dialogue with people

1637
01:44:41,640 --> 01:44:45,160
Speaker 1: who have different viewpoints talk about this stuff and explain,

1638
01:44:45,280 --> 01:44:48,200
Speaker 1: and I think you know you, you and others do

1639
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:54,920
Speaker 1: a good job of representing the the mindset and the

1640
01:44:56,520 --> 01:45:01,360
Speaker 1: the heart of many of us where we're coming from.

1641
01:45:02,040 --> 01:45:04,840
Speaker 1: We need more of that. What we don't need is

1642
01:45:04,960 --> 01:45:13,080
Speaker 1: like entrenchment and an unwillingness to engage in thoughtful dialogue

1643
01:45:13,240 --> 01:45:16,960
Speaker 1: about this stuff. Oh yeah, and I admire all that,

1644
01:45:17,120 --> 01:45:21,000
Speaker 1: but so much of what you hear is so ridiculous.

1645
01:45:22,360 --> 01:45:26,360
Speaker 1: When when other when people who aren't immersed in this

1646
01:45:27,479 --> 01:45:34,160
Speaker 1: decided to dip a toe into wildlife management, oftentimes it's absurd. Yeah.

1647
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:39,960
Speaker 1: So that's where sound science being like that happened around

1648
01:45:40,040 --> 01:45:44,599
Speaker 1: the things that happened around Florida's bear hunt. Yeah, where

1649
01:45:44,840 --> 01:45:50,600
Speaker 1: they have a recovered, popular or recovered above objective population

1650
01:45:50,680 --> 01:45:54,200
Speaker 1: of black bears, open a season and put a quota

1651
01:45:54,320 --> 01:45:59,400
Speaker 1: system in place, we will not pass this threshold of

1652
01:45:59,520 --> 01:46:04,080
Speaker 1: bare more mortality get close to the threshold much quicker

1653
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:07,599
Speaker 1: than they thought they would have demonstrated that they might

1654
01:46:07,680 --> 01:46:11,840
Speaker 1: have more bears than they thought they did, and the

1655
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:18,680
Speaker 1: hunt early before they hit the quota. Anyone looking at

1656
01:46:18,760 --> 01:46:22,000
Speaker 1: this would be like, that's a successful that's a successful

1657
01:46:22,640 --> 01:46:28,200
Speaker 1: hunt allowing people to exercise the right of extracting and

1658
01:46:28,280 --> 01:46:33,760
Speaker 1: renewable resource in a way that is raising money for

1659
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:39,519
Speaker 1: wildlife work. How is it treated in the press? Florida massacres. Yeah,

1660
01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:50,200
Speaker 1: three bears, let's shut it down. So no ship that

1661
01:46:50,280 --> 01:46:54,639
Speaker 1: you generate a lot of antipathy from people who who

1662
01:46:55,479 --> 01:47:00,599
Speaker 1: who aren't just not really welcoming to the new voices

1663
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:04,800
Speaker 1: who are coming around who haven't aren't vested in this,

1664
01:47:07,040 --> 01:47:11,040
Speaker 1: aren't invested in it, aren't really aware of the underlying,

1665
01:47:11,240 --> 01:47:14,760
Speaker 1: like core principles of the system. But they are just

1666
01:47:14,920 --> 01:47:17,840
Speaker 1: like going based off some ship I heard this morning

1667
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:22,439
Speaker 1: on the news. It drives you nuts. It does drive

1668
01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:25,320
Speaker 1: you nuts. I agree, And I think so it's like

1669
01:47:25,400 --> 01:47:28,639
Speaker 1: I wish like that. You sometimes wish that like New

1670
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:33,840
Speaker 1: Jersey cat ladies would stick to their cat. Yes, So

1671
01:47:34,000 --> 01:47:39,480
Speaker 1: what's the solution to that? What's the solution to addressing

1672
01:47:39,800 --> 01:47:44,680
Speaker 1: this valid concern that you're raising? I don't know. I

1673
01:47:44,800 --> 01:47:50,200
Speaker 1: don't know, and this I I don't I don't believe

1674
01:47:50,400 --> 01:47:54,640
Speaker 1: that entrenchment over time will be a winning strategy. I

1675
01:47:54,680 --> 01:47:57,200
Speaker 1: agree with your So I think here's here's what I

1676
01:47:57,280 --> 01:48:00,840
Speaker 1: believe coming in forcefully. Thanks, here's what I believe the

1677
01:48:00,880 --> 01:48:04,320
Speaker 1: solution to be. Okay, I believe if you can talk

1678
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:09,760
Speaker 1: about this stuff eloquently, we and listen. I agree with

1679
01:48:09,840 --> 01:48:13,080
Speaker 1: you too. I'm just bringing up a way of looking

1680
01:48:13,120 --> 01:48:15,280
Speaker 1: at it. Yes, and and it's a valid it's a

1681
01:48:15,360 --> 01:48:17,719
Speaker 1: valid way of looking at it. But I like it's

1682
01:48:17,760 --> 01:48:21,800
Speaker 1: like that's saying like, Okay, I'm wrong, But am I right? Right?

1683
01:48:22,040 --> 01:48:23,840
Speaker 1: I don't bring you up a way of looking at it.

1684
01:48:23,960 --> 01:48:26,519
Speaker 1: I don't think we can collectively stick our heads in

1685
01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:30,760
Speaker 1: the sand and ignore the cultural changes around us, the

1686
01:48:31,120 --> 01:48:36,400
Speaker 1: biggest one of which is the increasing urbanization of our citizenry,

1687
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:39,760
Speaker 1: which comes hand in hand with a disconnection from the

1688
01:48:39,880 --> 01:48:44,160
Speaker 1: natural world. So I think the solution to that is

1689
01:48:44,280 --> 01:48:46,200
Speaker 1: that rather than sticking our heads in the sand and

1690
01:48:46,360 --> 01:48:50,000
Speaker 1: just digging trenches where we're in our own little echo

1691
01:48:50,120 --> 01:48:52,840
Speaker 1: chamber about how what we're doing is totally right and defensible,

1692
01:48:52,880 --> 01:48:55,519
Speaker 1: and those people out there who see things from a

1693
01:48:55,560 --> 01:48:59,720
Speaker 1: different vantage point have it all wrong. I believe the

1694
01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:07,640
Speaker 1: action is that we capitalize on what EO. Wilson termed biophilia,

1695
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:10,799
Speaker 1: the fact that there's this innate desire in human beings

1696
01:49:11,120 --> 01:49:13,640
Speaker 1: to interact with nature. And I don't think that's going

1697
01:49:13,680 --> 01:49:15,559
Speaker 1: to go away over a generation. I don't think that's

1698
01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:17,719
Speaker 1: going to go away over two or three or four generations.

1699
01:49:17,800 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 1: I think it is innate to our species that we

1700
01:49:20,360 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 1: have this desire to be somehow interactive with nature. And

1701
01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:31,360
Speaker 1: I believe if we have the right ambassadors for these activities,

1702
01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:38,000
Speaker 1: we can welcome in folks from that urban majority to

1703
01:49:38,200 --> 01:49:42,200
Speaker 1: be mindful participants who engage in the outdoors and join

1704
01:49:42,320 --> 01:49:48,280
Speaker 1: us as ambassadors for these these thoughtful, beneficial, constructive activities,

1705
01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:53,960
Speaker 1: and over time, our ranks and our impact, rather than

1706
01:49:54,040 --> 01:49:58,400
Speaker 1: being diminished, swell, and our relevant swells, and our base

1707
01:49:58,479 --> 01:50:02,160
Speaker 1: of funding swells. And I think the path to that

1708
01:50:02,800 --> 01:50:09,680
Speaker 1: approach involves thoughtful discussion, thoughtful discourse, respect for other viewpoints,

1709
01:50:10,520 --> 01:50:16,000
Speaker 1: and a willingness to speak authentically about where we're coming

1710
01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:18,439
Speaker 1: from with people who maybe have a different set of

1711
01:50:18,520 --> 01:50:21,720
Speaker 1: life experiences. Have you ever done a hunt where you

1712
01:50:21,920 --> 01:50:25,400
Speaker 1: had to go and pass a test for you can

1713
01:50:25,439 --> 01:50:30,960
Speaker 1: apply for the hunt. The only thing that pops into

1714
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:34,080
Speaker 1: my mind is that classic fence crossing and hunter education.

1715
01:50:35,240 --> 01:50:38,559
Speaker 1: I'm talking like you got to hit a plaine if

1716
01:50:38,560 --> 01:50:41,920
Speaker 1: you're gonna hunt moose on the Kenai Peninsula. Yeah, as

1717
01:50:42,000 --> 01:50:45,880
Speaker 1: of this year, you need to go in and pass

1718
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:53,840
Speaker 1: the online course about antler configuration on moose in Montana.

1719
01:50:54,160 --> 01:50:56,439
Speaker 1: When you go to get a black bear permit, you

1720
01:50:56,520 --> 01:51:01,400
Speaker 1: need to pass an i D course. Can you differentiate

1721
01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:04,080
Speaker 1: from a grizzly? A grizzly at New Mexico has a

1722
01:51:04,120 --> 01:51:10,840
Speaker 1: lion identification? Colorado has a lion identification? Yes, Utah, I

1723
01:51:11,000 --> 01:51:13,479
Speaker 1: just did mine the other day. I did a fifteen

1724
01:51:13,600 --> 01:51:17,320
Speaker 1: question exam before you can apply for a tunder swan

1725
01:51:17,479 --> 01:51:20,200
Speaker 1: permit because they want you to damn sure know the

1726
01:51:20,280 --> 01:51:24,680
Speaker 1: difference between a tunder swan and a whistler. Okay, all right,

1727
01:51:25,360 --> 01:51:31,040
Speaker 1: ye now, I and this is this isn't just this

1728
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:34,160
Speaker 1: isn't just like I'm not just applying this the hunting.

1729
01:51:34,720 --> 01:51:41,400
Speaker 1: But I feel like there should be a thing in

1730
01:51:41,479 --> 01:51:44,880
Speaker 1: a utopia, There would be a thing where in order

1731
01:51:44,960 --> 01:51:50,200
Speaker 1: for you to have an opinion where you're going about wildlife,

1732
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:54,920
Speaker 1: wildlife politics, and wildlife conservation you need to go in

1733
01:51:55,080 --> 01:51:58,599
Speaker 1: and pass a course, and the course would be drawn

1734
01:51:58,720 --> 01:52:02,000
Speaker 1: up by people to be where it didn't reflect a

1735
01:52:02,080 --> 01:52:07,639
Speaker 1: particular viewpoint. It just measured your understanding of where we've been,

1736
01:52:08,720 --> 01:52:13,280
Speaker 1: where we are now, what the picture is, and what

1737
01:52:13,520 --> 01:52:16,879
Speaker 1: different people are, what vision people are trying to pursue.

1738
01:52:17,760 --> 01:52:20,800
Speaker 1: At which point, when you pass said test, you can

1739
01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:25,040
Speaker 1: then say, man, I feel real bad about pedals the bear,

1740
01:52:26,000 --> 01:52:30,120
Speaker 1: yeah or whatever, that's utopia. Yeah. And you know, the

1741
01:52:30,200 --> 01:52:31,560
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is, the sad fact of the

1742
01:52:31,600 --> 01:52:36,840
Speaker 1: matter is that, well beyond the discussions around hunting, a

1743
01:52:36,880 --> 01:52:38,680
Speaker 1: lot of people have a lot of opinions about a

1744
01:52:38,720 --> 01:52:43,400
Speaker 1: lot of stuff where they really don't have try so hard.

1745
01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:46,360
Speaker 1: Unless I'm like arguing with my wife about something, I

1746
01:52:46,479 --> 01:52:50,760
Speaker 1: try so hard to not articulate opinions about ship that

1747
01:52:50,920 --> 01:52:55,880
Speaker 1: I have no business talking about. Yeah, And I think

1748
01:52:56,840 --> 01:53:00,519
Speaker 1: the world would be a better place if more folks

1749
01:53:00,600 --> 01:53:03,320
Speaker 1: took that approach, and if more folks, you know, had

1750
01:53:03,360 --> 01:53:10,600
Speaker 1: a real appetite for learning new things and having broadened horizons. Unfortunately,

1751
01:53:10,640 --> 01:53:11,960
Speaker 1: that's not the world that we live in. But I

1752
01:53:13,000 --> 01:53:16,000
Speaker 1: sincerely believe, and a lot of this is based on

1753
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:19,440
Speaker 1: my experience with Learn to Hunt programs and with interacting

1754
01:53:20,160 --> 01:53:22,000
Speaker 1: um with a lot of new hunters who have come

1755
01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:27,840
Speaker 1: into the activity as adults, particularly from urban backgrounds, that

1756
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:37,160
Speaker 1: this desire to experience the kinds of you know, perspective

1757
01:53:37,320 --> 01:53:43,240
Speaker 1: altering outdoor moments that the three of us and you know,

1758
01:53:43,439 --> 01:53:46,120
Speaker 1: a lot of folks listen to this have a healthy

1759
01:53:46,200 --> 01:53:50,840
Speaker 1: dose of every year. The desire for those experiences exists

1760
01:53:50,960 --> 01:53:52,840
Speaker 1: in a lot of people who are just trying to

1761
01:53:52,920 --> 01:53:56,720
Speaker 1: figure out how to get there. Furthermore, there are a

1762
01:53:56,720 --> 01:54:00,680
Speaker 1: lot of people who if given the right catalysts, the

1763
01:54:00,840 --> 01:54:07,320
Speaker 1: lightbulb can come on. And I believe in the grand

1764
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:13,200
Speaker 1: scheme of conservation in this country, one of the most

1765
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:16,120
Speaker 1: impactful things that we can do is help open up

1766
01:54:16,120 --> 01:54:20,640
Speaker 1: the door to those folks, and that is a different mindset.

1767
01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:24,040
Speaker 1: I've taken thirty of them on their first hunting trip. Yes,

1768
01:54:24,439 --> 01:54:27,960
Speaker 1: so don't be telling me about this, dude. I'm I'm preaching.

1769
01:54:28,080 --> 01:54:30,560
Speaker 1: I'm preaching less to you and more just kind of

1770
01:54:30,840 --> 01:54:34,160
Speaker 1: I'm getting all defensive. My feelings are getting hurt. Oh no, dude,

1771
01:54:34,480 --> 01:54:37,880
Speaker 1: So what I'm what I'm saying, and you should be

1772
01:54:37,960 --> 01:54:40,760
Speaker 1: taking it this way. What we need is more people

1773
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:44,000
Speaker 1: willing to engage in these thoughtful conversations and willing to

1774
01:54:44,080 --> 01:54:46,400
Speaker 1: take people under their wings. And the folks that you've

1775
01:54:46,480 --> 01:54:48,160
Speaker 1: taken out, you know, I think a lot of those

1776
01:54:48,240 --> 01:54:51,480
Speaker 1: individuals embody exactly what I'm talking about. You have a

1777
01:54:51,520 --> 01:54:54,800
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of adult first time hunters, a

1778
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:59,000
Speaker 1: lot of women, a lot of people motivated by food. Um.

1779
01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:04,600
Speaker 1: These are These are like universal. The ability to to

1780
01:55:04,760 --> 01:55:08,480
Speaker 1: have kind of a communal experience outdoors that results in

1781
01:55:08,600 --> 01:55:10,920
Speaker 1: being able to eat something healthy and share that with

1782
01:55:11,000 --> 01:55:15,320
Speaker 1: your family. The ability to go out and actively procure

1783
01:55:16,680 --> 01:55:19,560
Speaker 1: the calories that you're going to use to sustain yourself

1784
01:55:19,880 --> 01:55:23,920
Speaker 1: and sustain those whom you love. These are like fundamental,

1785
01:55:24,560 --> 01:55:29,960
Speaker 1: hardwired desires in human beings. Interact with nature, Eat something

1786
01:55:30,040 --> 01:55:34,880
Speaker 1: good biophelia and meat fhelia, Yeah, dude, meat Yeah, I'd see.

1787
01:55:35,000 --> 01:55:37,280
Speaker 1: So they're one and the same. It's one and the same,

1788
01:55:38,000 --> 01:55:41,480
Speaker 1: interacting with nature. I had a guy email their day

1789
01:55:41,520 --> 01:55:45,600
Speaker 1: and said, uh, his girlfriend doesn't like to hunt. Sounds

1790
01:55:45,640 --> 01:55:48,000
Speaker 1: of my wife like his. They don't like to hunt.

1791
01:55:48,040 --> 01:55:50,280
Speaker 1: They just like to eat wild meat. And he said,

1792
01:55:50,440 --> 01:55:55,760
Speaker 1: is there a word for someone who just eats wild meat? Yeah?

1793
01:55:56,960 --> 01:55:59,520
Speaker 1: I thought was wild terrians. I gome up with I

1794
01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:02,840
Speaker 1: got it it wild to terran. No, it's not um

1795
01:56:03,080 --> 01:56:06,040
Speaker 1: so too. That's a tight word. I like wild to terran.

1796
01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:07,840
Speaker 1: I've got one. I've got one that's even tighter for

1797
01:56:07,960 --> 01:56:12,840
Speaker 1: you though. So if you look at the Latin root

1798
01:56:13,680 --> 01:56:24,160
Speaker 1: for venison, yeah, h venado in Spanish, then venny that

1799
01:56:24,320 --> 01:56:28,320
Speaker 1: means that means to pursue. It means to hunt. So

1800
01:56:28,440 --> 01:56:30,560
Speaker 1: technically speaking, when somebody says venison, what do you think

1801
01:56:30,560 --> 01:56:32,840
Speaker 1: if you think of dear meat? Right, if you were

1802
01:56:32,880 --> 01:56:36,440
Speaker 1: to take a literal translation of venison, it would be

1803
01:56:36,680 --> 01:56:39,440
Speaker 1: meat that has been hunted venison like you could. You

1804
01:56:39,480 --> 01:56:41,680
Speaker 1: could pull out a quail and say, here's some venison.

1805
01:56:42,720 --> 01:56:45,640
Speaker 1: So I think these individuals you just described they would

1806
01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:50,640
Speaker 1: be venivoes. Oh man, I like that. But the problem

1807
01:56:50,760 --> 01:56:54,960
Speaker 1: is the problem is not enough people know that that's

1808
01:56:54,960 --> 01:56:58,840
Speaker 1: what that means. Well, and we just invented it. Okay,

1809
01:56:59,200 --> 01:57:01,920
Speaker 1: let me lay it. Look Yeah, but yeah, but you

1810
01:57:02,000 --> 01:57:05,320
Speaker 1: got a factor in that. No, I like it, but

1811
01:57:05,480 --> 01:57:08,000
Speaker 1: you need to you need the factor. You can't factor

1812
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:10,600
Speaker 1: in knowing. You can't have me just because you know

1813
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:13,240
Speaker 1: that you're right. You gotta look at it like venison

1814
01:57:13,360 --> 01:57:16,200
Speaker 1: means dear meat. But they're saying, but that's not because

1815
01:57:16,240 --> 01:57:23,200
Speaker 1: I snaff too, right, So in pursued. But let me

1816
01:57:23,280 --> 01:57:26,160
Speaker 1: tell you a tale. Okay, okay, this is the last

1817
01:57:26,200 --> 01:57:27,800
Speaker 1: different top. Yeah, yeah, I In the mean time, have

1818
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:29,720
Speaker 1: you come any closer and you're thinking about how you're

1819
01:57:29,720 --> 01:57:33,600
Speaker 1: gonna capture blood for blood sausage? No, I haven't been

1820
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:38,480
Speaker 1: sitting here googling. No, what about like a siphon? You know,

1821
01:57:39,120 --> 01:57:40,800
Speaker 1: like if you're trying to drain in aquarium and you

1822
01:57:40,920 --> 01:57:43,800
Speaker 1: got the hose, you kind of get like the down

1823
01:57:44,080 --> 01:57:48,160
Speaker 1: downhill gravity thing going. Yeah, that's all fine. Like I said,

1824
01:57:48,240 --> 01:57:50,560
Speaker 1: you just gotta be there with the implements to cool

1825
01:57:50,600 --> 01:57:53,040
Speaker 1: it down. What if you shoot one on like a

1826
01:57:53,120 --> 01:57:58,040
Speaker 1: late season hunt when it's negative ten degrees out? Wouldn't

1827
01:57:58,080 --> 01:57:59,560
Speaker 1: that be part of the I would think you want

1828
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:02,560
Speaker 1: to put it to a capped container and limit its

1829
01:58:02,600 --> 01:58:05,200
Speaker 1: exposure to air. Yeah, I think that's a big part

1830
01:58:05,240 --> 01:58:07,680
Speaker 1: of it. That is what I would be thinking about. Oh,

1831
01:58:08,200 --> 01:58:10,680
Speaker 1: but here's what I want to tell you. Okay, this

1832
01:58:10,840 --> 01:58:13,240
Speaker 1: isn't even relican. This be our bedtime story because I

1833
01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:14,800
Speaker 1: think I have to go to bed and then get

1834
01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:16,840
Speaker 1: up and make it and get a flight all within

1835
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:20,400
Speaker 1: like four hours. Isn't it beautiful out here? Though? Stars,

1836
01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:22,120
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell you the thing I was gonna

1837
01:58:22,160 --> 01:58:25,920
Speaker 1: tell you. You gotta can't do that. You gotta do

1838
01:58:26,000 --> 01:58:31,280
Speaker 1: it like a cliff notes. Okay, So I have a shirt. Um,

1839
01:58:31,760 --> 01:58:35,600
Speaker 1: I had a shirt that that just takes so damn long.

1840
01:58:36,320 --> 01:58:40,560
Speaker 1: All right, I say, I had a Savage rifle shirt. Okay.

1841
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:44,440
Speaker 1: And the company is Savage, right, And their logo for

1842
01:58:44,560 --> 01:58:47,760
Speaker 1: a long time was it was a planes Indian with

1843
01:58:47,840 --> 01:58:50,880
Speaker 1: a head the head dress. I remember the rain with

1844
01:58:50,920 --> 01:58:56,120
Speaker 1: his head dress and it says Savage. So I go

1845
01:58:56,240 --> 01:58:58,200
Speaker 1: to someone and I say, hey, what do you what

1846
01:58:58,360 --> 01:59:02,160
Speaker 1: do you see? What's the shirt? Right? What does the

1847
01:59:02,240 --> 01:59:04,480
Speaker 1: shirt say to you? And she says, well, it says

1848
01:59:04,520 --> 01:59:06,160
Speaker 1: to me that you got an Indian on your shirt.

1849
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:08,640
Speaker 1: And you're saying that that Indian is a savage or

1850
01:59:08,680 --> 01:59:14,080
Speaker 1: Indians are savages. The truth of the matter is that

1851
01:59:15,000 --> 01:59:19,200
Speaker 1: Savage the Firearm Company was founded started by a man who,

1852
01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:23,000
Speaker 1: due to no action of his own, happened to have

1853
01:59:23,160 --> 01:59:27,440
Speaker 1: the last name of Savage. Arthur Savage was the guy's

1854
01:59:27,560 --> 01:59:30,840
Speaker 1: name when he was starting his company out making lever

1855
01:59:30,960 --> 01:59:36,560
Speaker 1: action rifles or early client of his was chief Lame Dear.

1856
01:59:38,800 --> 01:59:41,880
Speaker 1: He gave lame dear a good deal on a bunch

1857
01:59:41,920 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 1: of rifles. They became friendly. Lame dear said, you know what,

1858
01:59:48,480 --> 01:59:51,320
Speaker 1: you could put my likeness. I like you so much,

1859
01:59:51,480 --> 01:59:57,360
Speaker 1: you can put my likeness on your rifles. Arthur Savage

1860
01:59:57,360 --> 02:00:03,480
Speaker 1: says that sounds great. Okay, So there's what someone hears

1861
02:00:04,320 --> 02:00:09,200
Speaker 1: and thinks they're seeing and what they're really seeing. And

1862
02:00:09,320 --> 02:00:16,240
Speaker 1: to say of veniceitarian or whatever, venivore, a venivore, a venivore,

1863
02:00:16,480 --> 02:00:19,080
Speaker 1: that's such a good term. You can't go around exploit

1864
02:00:19,160 --> 02:00:22,240
Speaker 1: like like it's like wearing my shirt where you gotta

1865
02:00:22,240 --> 02:00:23,760
Speaker 1: go around the people being like no, no, no, no,

1866
02:00:24,320 --> 02:00:29,800
Speaker 1: check it out right. Really, it just takes so much energy. Yeah,

1867
02:00:30,080 --> 02:00:32,120
Speaker 1: so I would have to say people be like, oh no,

1868
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:34,360
Speaker 1: because I eat snap turtles and quails and ship too,

1869
02:00:34,600 --> 02:00:36,240
Speaker 1: And it has to been oh no, no no, because

1870
02:00:36,760 --> 02:00:39,600
Speaker 1: really the root word it just I just gets so

1871
02:00:39,720 --> 02:00:45,240
Speaker 1: tired halfway through any time you got any concluding thoughts, Yeah,

1872
02:00:45,280 --> 02:00:49,400
Speaker 1: you you'd have to be like me. You you have

1873
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:52,320
Speaker 1: to be like me, where instead of even giving people

1874
02:00:52,360 --> 02:00:56,840
Speaker 1: your full name, you've been relegated to saying JP. Yeah,

1875
02:00:57,000 --> 02:00:59,040
Speaker 1: so that you don't have to be like, yeah, it's

1876
02:00:59,160 --> 02:01:04,600
Speaker 1: Lavians all of the j da da every day, this man.

1877
02:01:05,640 --> 02:01:08,280
Speaker 1: Every day, this man has to explain his name. Yeah,

1878
02:01:08,480 --> 02:01:11,240
Speaker 1: now I saw he's got Yanni has an email signature

1879
02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:14,040
Speaker 1: for those of you who have not emailed with Yanni,

1880
02:01:14,600 --> 02:01:18,200
Speaker 1: where it's got the spelling j A N I S

1881
02:01:18,320 --> 02:01:22,680
Speaker 1: and then in parentheses y A N I S closed parentheses,

1882
02:01:23,160 --> 02:01:25,640
Speaker 1: like so people can help to help people understand how

1883
02:01:25,680 --> 02:01:29,280
Speaker 1: to pronounce his name. That I read that and I thought, oh,

1884
02:01:29,360 --> 02:01:35,320
Speaker 1: his name is Janice Jannis, Yes, Prince Yannis parentheses. Now

1885
02:01:35,480 --> 02:01:37,120
Speaker 1: even my car I got the kind of car you

1886
02:01:37,160 --> 02:01:38,560
Speaker 1: can talk to you when you want to call someone

1887
02:01:38,600 --> 02:01:47,200
Speaker 1: who I have to say, uh, call Janice Boodless and

1888
02:01:47,320 --> 02:01:50,000
Speaker 1: it'll then and then my kids like that's not his day.

1889
02:01:50,320 --> 02:01:53,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, the car takes his name is that's

1890
02:01:53,000 --> 02:01:54,480
Speaker 1: what we're gonna call him right now, until we get

1891
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:56,560
Speaker 1: him on the horn, they're gonna call him Yanni and

1892
02:01:56,600 --> 02:02:02,800
Speaker 1: then your your Yanka. Um. Yeah. Once the computers figure

1893
02:02:02,800 --> 02:02:06,920
Speaker 1: out that you can just say call and it dials

1894
02:02:07,040 --> 02:02:08,720
Speaker 1: me up, we know we're in trou then you'll know

1895
02:02:08,840 --> 02:02:12,960
Speaker 1: you've you've achieved artificial intelligence. That's when you know, like

1896
02:02:13,080 --> 02:02:16,240
Speaker 1: the beginning of the end has come and soon the

1897
02:02:16,320 --> 02:02:18,840
Speaker 1: technology you'll be taken over. Okay, I don't have any

1898
02:02:18,840 --> 02:02:24,640
Speaker 1: concluding thoughts because I'm my mind was my mind was

1899
02:02:24,720 --> 02:02:28,240
Speaker 1: the story about the T shirts. Thought about your name,

1900
02:02:28,680 --> 02:02:34,200
Speaker 1: that name, Thanks mom, Dad. Now I'm on board with

1901
02:02:34,680 --> 02:02:38,760
Speaker 1: Karl's thinking on how we should be moving forward with

1902
02:02:40,080 --> 02:02:43,880
Speaker 1: you know, taking the time to accept those other viewpoints.

1903
02:02:44,520 --> 02:02:47,720
Speaker 1: And it's I didn't feel like it's our responsibility to

1904
02:02:48,440 --> 02:02:53,800
Speaker 1: educate these people. And you know, I hate that word

1905
02:02:54,440 --> 02:02:59,920
Speaker 1: educate because people don't usually mean when people say they

1906
02:03:00,080 --> 02:03:02,440
Speaker 1: need to be educated. I find the people what they're

1907
02:03:02,440 --> 02:03:06,400
Speaker 1: really saying is they're saying I need to convince them

1908
02:03:06,440 --> 02:03:09,840
Speaker 1: to agree with me. That's people. It's like code. It's

1909
02:03:09,840 --> 02:03:12,240
Speaker 1: like a weird code language. But we're like, oh, the

1910
02:03:12,320 --> 02:03:15,080
Speaker 1: public needs to be educated. What you're saying, it really

1911
02:03:15,200 --> 02:03:20,320
Speaker 1: is like the public needs to see. Friend. Greg Blaskovic

1912
02:03:20,720 --> 02:03:26,240
Speaker 1: showed us, like through his research that so many people

1913
02:03:26,280 --> 02:03:31,280
Speaker 1: out there think that hunting is completely unregulated, that you

1914
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:34,120
Speaker 1: all you need to do to go hunting is get

1915
02:03:34,960 --> 02:03:37,800
Speaker 1: some sort of weapon and walk out into the woods

1916
02:03:37,880 --> 02:03:41,320
Speaker 1: and if it's brown, it's down. Okay. So when there

1917
02:03:41,480 --> 02:03:44,680
Speaker 1: is that level of ignorance. Then I don't feel bad saying, yes,

1918
02:03:45,120 --> 02:03:48,640
Speaker 1: I should be going out and educating people. No, I agree,

1919
02:03:48,720 --> 02:03:51,040
Speaker 1: I like it. I like it. I understand what you're saying.

1920
02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:54,040
Speaker 1: But I've just over the years, I've found when people

1921
02:03:54,080 --> 02:03:56,800
Speaker 1: say they want to educate people, what they're saying is

1922
02:03:56,840 --> 02:03:58,800
Speaker 1: they want to get people to agree with them. And

1923
02:03:59,520 --> 02:04:04,680
Speaker 1: funny ring up Gregg's study because Greg was testing ways

1924
02:04:05,400 --> 02:04:08,000
Speaker 1: in which he could get people to agree with him.

1925
02:04:08,480 --> 02:04:12,600
Speaker 1: M hm, So yeah, let's go educate him, meaning let's

1926
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:14,120
Speaker 1: get agree with us. But I also think this is

1927
02:04:14,200 --> 02:04:17,600
Speaker 1: like a little bit of cynicism where when people say, like, oh,

1928
02:04:17,720 --> 02:04:20,680
Speaker 1: we I want to be opened up to other people's viewpoints,

1929
02:04:21,080 --> 02:04:24,040
Speaker 1: you're sort of saying I want to pretend to be

1930
02:04:24,280 --> 02:04:28,040
Speaker 1: open to your viewpoints so that I can educate on

1931
02:04:28,240 --> 02:04:31,280
Speaker 1: my you about my viewpoints and have it be that

1932
02:04:31,440 --> 02:04:35,160
Speaker 1: you come out agreeing with me. You're not saying. You're

1933
02:04:35,200 --> 02:04:41,560
Speaker 1: not saying that I am this mushy, undecisive thing open

1934
02:04:41,640 --> 02:04:44,600
Speaker 1: to you telling me ship that's gonna make me requestion

1935
02:04:44,760 --> 02:04:51,840
Speaker 1: my core fundamental beliefs. So the dialogue you're supposedly fixing

1936
02:04:51,920 --> 02:04:54,360
Speaker 1: to have you might not even have a core fundamental

1937
02:04:54,480 --> 02:04:57,520
Speaker 1: belief about what we're talking about. I have core fundamental

1938
02:04:57,560 --> 02:05:02,520
Speaker 1: beliefs about what I'm talking about right now, but wildlife

1939
02:05:02,600 --> 02:05:06,440
Speaker 1: management in America. Okay. So I'm not gonna go around

1940
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:09,440
Speaker 1: acting to people like I'm open to your viewpoints, because

1941
02:05:09,480 --> 02:05:12,360
Speaker 1: I'm not. Really. I'm curious to hear what you think

1942
02:05:12,800 --> 02:05:14,800
Speaker 1: so that I can hear what you think and then

1943
02:05:14,880 --> 02:05:19,400
Speaker 1: tell you some ship to make you think otherwise, kinda

1944
02:05:22,280 --> 02:05:25,600
Speaker 1: kind I'm nodding my head in agreement, like agree with

1945
02:05:25,640 --> 02:05:27,200
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, or you want to go to bed,

1946
02:05:29,200 --> 02:05:32,560
Speaker 1: so that I'm done, I have I swear to God

1947
02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:36,040
Speaker 1: I'm not saying in our thing. Just turn that sheen

1948
02:05:36,120 --> 02:05:39,680
Speaker 1: off and you're ready. Honest, it's been a good discussion.

1949
02:05:40,040 --> 02:05:43,720
Speaker 1: It's been a lively, lively chat. So this notion about

1950
02:05:44,280 --> 02:05:45,960
Speaker 1: h now a whole lot of it. That was a

1951
02:05:46,000 --> 02:05:48,440
Speaker 1: joke because I'm not saying anything, all right, This this

1952
02:05:48,600 --> 02:05:55,160
Speaker 1: notion about educating folks, um. I think there's utility in

1953
02:05:55,600 --> 02:06:00,400
Speaker 1: sharing information that is pertinent to the topic where to discussing.

1954
02:06:00,480 --> 02:06:02,080
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of folks out there

1955
02:06:02,120 --> 02:06:06,640
Speaker 1: who have no clue of the basics, and in those instances,

1956
02:06:06,800 --> 02:06:11,120
Speaker 1: if they have the desire to actually be informed. A

1957
02:06:11,240 --> 02:06:17,480
Speaker 1: degree of education is warranted, absolutely, But the fact is

1958
02:06:17,920 --> 02:06:24,560
Speaker 1: where we have the most potency around this topic I

1959
02:06:24,640 --> 02:06:30,040
Speaker 1: think has less to do with like convincing people of

1960
02:06:30,800 --> 02:06:35,760
Speaker 1: hard facts with data and speaking about this in more

1961
02:06:36,080 --> 02:06:41,160
Speaker 1: personal ways that I believe are broadly relevant to our

1962
02:06:41,240 --> 02:06:46,640
Speaker 1: fellow human beings on like a species level. So reverence

1963
02:06:46,720 --> 02:06:52,040
Speaker 1: for nature, desire to eat well, desire to be active,

1964
02:06:52,760 --> 02:06:56,400
Speaker 1: desire to have healthy functioning ecosystems in which we can

1965
02:06:56,440 --> 02:07:02,800
Speaker 1: be participants. Those are those I believe for most people

1966
02:07:03,600 --> 02:07:06,640
Speaker 1: who have their their basics met. You know, folks who

1967
02:07:08,360 --> 02:07:12,040
Speaker 1: are otherwise, they're covered and they have they have the

1968
02:07:12,080 --> 02:07:15,400
Speaker 1: ability to think beyond just survival mode. And it's important

1969
02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:18,320
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that for some people their reality is survival mode.

1970
02:07:20,400 --> 02:07:23,880
Speaker 1: People who have have survival mode box checked. What we're

1971
02:07:23,880 --> 02:07:29,440
Speaker 1: talking about here around healthy land, eating well, being active,

1972
02:07:30,080 --> 02:07:33,160
Speaker 1: getting a good dose in nature. I think those are

1973
02:07:33,600 --> 02:07:39,560
Speaker 1: like universally appealing, and I believe that based in part

1974
02:07:40,080 --> 02:07:43,560
Speaker 1: on my experience interacting with people from other countries that

1975
02:07:43,640 --> 02:07:49,960
Speaker 1: are far more ecologically degraded than ours is, you know,

1976
02:07:50,040 --> 02:07:52,640
Speaker 1: talking to people who have spent their whole lives living

1977
02:07:52,680 --> 02:07:57,560
Speaker 1: in urban centers in China about the recreational opportunities that

1978
02:07:57,640 --> 02:07:59,520
Speaker 1: we have here in North America and having them say

1979
02:07:59,800 --> 02:08:02,560
Speaker 1: I want to come do that with you sometime, and

1980
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:07,320
Speaker 1: then having them come and experience that, and having those

1981
02:08:07,400 --> 02:08:12,080
Speaker 1: experiences literally bring tears to people's eyes, like the star

1982
02:08:12,160 --> 02:08:14,360
Speaker 1: I was telling you earlier today about the deer hunt.

1983
02:08:14,840 --> 02:08:17,120
Speaker 1: So these are things that I believe are hardwired into us.

1984
02:08:17,880 --> 02:08:22,120
Speaker 1: And I think it's more about communicating on a personal

1985
02:08:22,160 --> 02:08:27,720
Speaker 1: emotional level, um than it is presenting facts. But I

1986
02:08:27,800 --> 02:08:31,920
Speaker 1: agree the facts are relevant, YOHNI. Yeah, I could. I

1987
02:08:32,000 --> 02:08:38,480
Speaker 1: could rephrase it to uh to uh, I guess, I

1988
02:08:38,520 --> 02:08:41,480
Speaker 1: guess appease you so that it's more of just like

1989
02:08:41,760 --> 02:08:45,560
Speaker 1: exposing you appease me, Yeah, so that you're like, yeah,

1990
02:08:46,000 --> 02:08:48,680
Speaker 1: I like what you're saying, So that they're just like,

1991
02:08:49,080 --> 02:08:54,920
Speaker 1: expose people to whatever we do. Don't try to educate them,

1992
02:08:55,000 --> 02:08:58,200
Speaker 1: but just expose them to what it is and then

1993
02:08:58,280 --> 02:09:00,160
Speaker 1: let them make up make their own decisions. You know,

1994
02:09:00,960 --> 02:09:03,160
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be mad if if they don't jump on,

1995
02:09:03,800 --> 02:09:07,320
Speaker 1: you know, jump on my side and all of a

1996
02:09:07,320 --> 02:09:11,440
Speaker 1: sudden becoming the biggest conservationists and hunters in the in

1997
02:09:11,680 --> 02:09:15,960
Speaker 1: you know, history, United States. Remember how Michael Jordan quit

1998
02:09:16,080 --> 02:09:19,800
Speaker 1: basketball then came back. Yeah, I'm back into this recording.

1999
02:09:21,680 --> 02:09:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm coming out of retirement hard. I quit earlier right

2000
02:09:25,600 --> 02:09:29,960
Speaker 1: when I'm back now. And that's why i'd beverages around

2001
02:09:30,000 --> 02:09:35,000
Speaker 1: this table. I've quite clarified that I am real comfortable

2002
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:38,880
Speaker 1: with people who don't agree with me, especially if they

2003
02:09:38,960 --> 02:09:42,120
Speaker 1: have a good reason for it, um, the reason that

2004
02:09:42,200 --> 02:09:45,240
Speaker 1: I accept as valid. So it's complicated, Carl, Thank you

2005
02:09:45,360 --> 02:09:48,800
Speaker 1: very much for joining us, Batman. Always glad to be here. Um.

2006
02:09:49,280 --> 02:09:53,560
Speaker 1: You always say things that make despite all the ship

2007
02:09:53,640 --> 02:09:56,080
Speaker 1: I've been saying, you always say things that made me

2008
02:09:56,200 --> 02:10:01,840
Speaker 1: think a little bit different. I come out of the

2009
02:10:01,920 --> 02:10:06,800
Speaker 1: experience of talking to you every time, UM, a changed person.

2010
02:10:08,080 --> 02:10:10,960
Speaker 1: So thanks for that. Appreciate it. Man, that's a great

2011
02:10:11,000 --> 02:10:16,400
Speaker 1: compliment and you're honest. Thank you, Hey, pleasure to be here. Yeah,

2012
02:10:16,640 --> 02:10:19,640
Speaker 1: what a nice night. God dude, glad you guys like

2013
02:10:19,760 --> 02:10:21,960
Speaker 1: the deck man that that means a lot too. Well.

2014
02:10:22,080 --> 02:10:24,240
Speaker 1: The light pollution is low here so you can see

2015
02:10:24,280 --> 02:10:27,640
Speaker 1: the night sky beautiful. If you've made it through this

2016
02:10:27,880 --> 02:10:33,080
Speaker 1: marathon podcast, please go to iTunes or wherever you listen

2017
02:10:33,200 --> 02:10:37,160
Speaker 1: to podcasts and uh leave a review, give us A

2018
02:10:37,320 --> 02:10:40,000
Speaker 1: rating we'd much appreciate it