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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In Today,

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Speaker 1: we're bringing you a special conversation with another host in

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Speaker 1: our network. That's right, We're gonna be talking to Katie Golden.

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Speaker 1: She's the host of Creature Feature. And yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: just a fun opportunity for us to support a new

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Speaker 1: science show in our general network and chat with just

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Speaker 1: a very knowledgeable host. Yeah, Creature Feature is a is

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Speaker 1: a great new show. Katie knows a lot about animals

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Speaker 1: and biology and evolution and psychology and uh, and so

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Speaker 1: we we wanted our listeners to go check out that show.

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Speaker 1: Get into that too. I think it'll be right up

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Speaker 1: your alley. Yeah. She chats with guests about, you know,

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Speaker 1: curious tidbits regarding animal biology, animal behavior, and it publishes

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Speaker 1: every Wednesday. It was kind of sandwiched in between Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind episodes like that, Right for all

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Speaker 1: those people who are like, where can I get more

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Speaker 1: leeches and bat sex between my two weekly episodes of

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind? This is where you go.

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Speaker 1: All right, We're gonna play a trailer before we jump

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Speaker 1: into our interview with Katie, and I also just want

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Speaker 1: to let everybody know if you want to check this

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Speaker 1: out online. The website for Creature Feature is Creature Feature

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Speaker 1: pod dot com. All right, let's have a listen to

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Speaker 1: that trailer. Humanity has spent a long time distancing ourselves

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Speaker 1: from the animal Kingdom. We wear clothes over our nakedness,

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Speaker 1: use the stock market, and go to the bathroom and

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Speaker 1: specially designated areas. But if you take a closer look

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Speaker 1: at the animal Kingdom, you'll find blood, bands and treachery

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Speaker 1: that make Game of Thrones seem like a dumb show

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Speaker 1: for babies. I'm Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary

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Speaker 1: biology at Harvard and I pretend to be a bird

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Speaker 1: on Twitter and my new podcast, Creature Feature brings you

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Speaker 1: tales of love, murder, sex, betrayal, and deception and the

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Speaker 1: lives of both animals and humans. We asked the questions,

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Speaker 1: what is going on in the brains of people who

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Speaker 1: suffer the delusion that they're a living corpse? How does

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Speaker 1: a romantic relationship work out between a man in a car?

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Speaker 1: What do you do when you find out your lover

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Speaker 1: wants to move in to your body. On Creature Feature,

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Speaker 1: we view nature in man from a new perspective each episode,

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Speaker 1: asking a comedian to get inside the minds of animals

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Speaker 1: so we can explore the startling connections to human psychology.

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Speaker 1: Join us every Wednesday starting on Halloween and subscribe on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your sick auditory kicks.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, let's go ahead and have a chat

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Speaker 1: with Katie Golden, host of Creature Feature. Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to blow your mind. Hey, great to be here. Could

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Speaker 1: you introduce yourself to the audience out there. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: I'm Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology at Harvard,

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Speaker 1: and I run the Twitter account pro Bird Rights, where

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Speaker 1: I pretend to be a bird activist, and I host

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Speaker 1: the new show from How Stuff Works called Creature Feature,

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Speaker 1: where we take an animals eye view at human behavior

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Speaker 1: and a humans eye view looking at animal behavior. So

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Speaker 1: I love this particular angle because, yeah, we can't help

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Speaker 1: but but look at the animal world, and we on

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Speaker 1: one level, we can't help but see them as as

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Speaker 1: little or large versions of ourselves, and then we can

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Speaker 1: freak out a bit when they do something that is

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Speaker 1: totally in human. Yeah, I just think it's it's interesting

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Speaker 1: because there's either the tendency to other over anthropomorphizes or

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Speaker 1: under anthropy morph us. So, UM, we'll see an animal

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Speaker 1: behavior that we think, oh, they're feeling a certain way, like, um,

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Speaker 1: if an insect is uh is stalking, something like like

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Speaker 1: the bullet spider likes to capture its prey by swinging

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Speaker 1: a piece of of its web with the sticky bullus

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Speaker 1: on the end, which is like this this bulb that uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's fashioned after it. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like that weapon, which is like a string with those

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Speaker 1: two heavy weights, and then you swing it and you

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Speaker 1: capture your prey. And then that's what the bullet spider does.

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Speaker 1: So when you're watching him do that, you're thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's thinking, oh, here we go, gonna try to get

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Speaker 1: this fly and oh, shoot, I missed, and then he

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Speaker 1: looks disappointed. But of course it's a spider, so it's

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Speaker 1: very unlikely it feels things like disappointment. But on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, I feel like more intelligent animals like especially

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Speaker 1: dogs um who have co evalved with us and chimpanzee

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Speaker 1: is and other primates and uh uh. Sea mammals that

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Speaker 1: are pretty complex do actually feel um emotions and and

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Speaker 1: it is reasonable to attribute human esque feelings to them.

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Speaker 1: And uh so, I think that's really interesting. I think

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons that the whole like human pretending

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Speaker 1: to be an animal on Twitter, one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: that is so interesting is because it tends to tell

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Speaker 1: us more about like humans in the nature of social

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Speaker 1: media that does about animals. Yeah, I mean so, one

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Speaker 1: thing is I find birds to be innately funny because

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Speaker 1: they seem so self absorbed if you watch them. I

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Speaker 1: used to own a couple of pair of heats. I've

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Speaker 1: been an avid bird watcher since I was a toddler. Really,

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Speaker 1: my mom used to say I would chase birds and

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Speaker 1: get really disappointed because they wouldn't make friends with me.

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Speaker 1: So I've always had an interest in birds, and they

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Speaker 1: just they they The way they carry themselves is it's

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Speaker 1: with such arrogance and with such self confidence and the

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Speaker 1: little head bob that they do, and the preening and

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Speaker 1: the fluffing up, and I feel like they kind of

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Speaker 1: I think when our relationship with social media is at

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Speaker 1: times really great, it can be used for wonderful things,

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Speaker 1: but often it's very egotistical, very self indulgent. And so

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Speaker 1: that's why I feel like a bird is a great

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Speaker 1: character to have on Twitter and social media because that

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Speaker 1: like self preening, uh just comes so naturally to birds.

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Speaker 1: And it's really fun to explore the kinds of self

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Speaker 1: centeredness that I think we we all have to a

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Speaker 1: certain extent where everything is about us. We're uncomfortable when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about things that aren't about us, and uh

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Speaker 1: so it's it's just fun to explore that from a

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Speaker 1: little acute, little bird. Another thing I love about human

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Speaker 1: contemplations of the animal, Uh it comes to into these

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Speaker 1: sort of folk ideas that we have about like, say

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Speaker 1: what certainly what our pets are, but also regarding things

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Speaker 1: like the squirrel. Uh. This is something that we we

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Speaker 1: talked about on on our show recently about uh getting

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Speaker 1: down into the meat eating habits of the of the squirrel,

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Speaker 1: and also some of the ideas about squirrel predation about

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Speaker 1: not just eating, uh you know, not just scavenging for me,

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Speaker 1: but actively pursuing prey at least in certain certain circumstances.

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Speaker 1: And it really throws our sort of folk mentality for

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Speaker 1: what this animal is out the window and we either

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Speaker 1: have to embrace or run from this this new idea

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Speaker 1: that the science gives us. Yeah, that's really interesting. Um.

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Speaker 1: When I was in school, I did this study that

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Speaker 1: made me seem really weird amongst my peers because what

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Speaker 1: we had to do is go out there with our

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Speaker 1: clipboards and study the squirrels on campus. Um. And so

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Speaker 1: you're just sitting there watching a squirrel eating nuts for hours. Um.

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Speaker 1: And one thing, they're so highly programmed to get maximum calories.

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Speaker 1: So if they find a nut that has a hole

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Speaker 1: in it, they're going to eat it immediately because they

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Speaker 1: have figured out uh that that whole means that there's

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Speaker 1: a larva in there for a type of moth that

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Speaker 1: if they just bury it, that larva is going to

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Speaker 1: eat the meat of the nut. Uh. And if they

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Speaker 1: eat it now, they get that extra protein that the

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Speaker 1: meat of the insect uh, in addition to the meat

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Speaker 1: of the acorn. But if they bury it, they don't

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Speaker 1: get anything. So they've learned to hedge their beds there

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Speaker 1: and eat it immediately, whereas pristine nuts they will bury

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Speaker 1: and say for later. So they're extremely opportunistic. And um,

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Speaker 1: I don't find it surprising that they actively go after

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Speaker 1: meat because they're just so there. They require so many

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Speaker 1: much caloric intake that they will do what they can.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of an interesting um. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's this is not they aren't actually the link evolutionarily,

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Speaker 1: but you can kind of see how that sort of

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Speaker 1: shrew like mammal can be a link but from or

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Speaker 1: before an insectivore to uh the omnivorous um mammals that

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Speaker 1: that are like badgers and uh ferrets and so on,

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Speaker 1: that that can evolve from those more harmless seeming mammals.

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Speaker 1: I love how the squirrel carnivory and squirrel predation thing

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Speaker 1: reveals that there's just like people think. I mean, people

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Speaker 1: in places where squirrels are common think they know everything

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Speaker 1: there is to know about squirrels just by looking out

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Speaker 1: the back window or something, because you see them all

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Speaker 1: the time. And then when you suddenly become aware that

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Speaker 1: they're they're doing these bloody things. Not all the time,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes they're doing these bloody things that you had

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Speaker 1: no idea about, it sort of makes you realize that

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Speaker 1: there's so much to nature that you are completely blind to,

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Speaker 1: even when you think you're looking at it a lot. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of that weird shock moment you get when

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Speaker 1: you see like a heron with a rabbit or a

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Speaker 1: mammal like in its mouth and you're like, whoa that

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Speaker 1: bird is? Because like we think of when we think

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Speaker 1: of birds of prey, we think of raptors, so hawks, eagles,

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Speaker 1: osprery's the ones with the you know, the menacing looking ones.

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Speaker 1: Herons look beautiful and elegant, like, you know, these these

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Speaker 1: exquisite pretty creatures. But they'll they'll eat a go for

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Speaker 1: for sure. I think we were talking about the example.

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Speaker 1: It's it's in one of the David Attenborough documentaries of

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Speaker 1: these horrible sites of pelicans just gobbling up baby birds,

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Speaker 1: just cramming them into their beaks and their little wings

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Speaker 1: and feet sticking out all over the place, eating them

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Speaker 1: like popcorns. Yeah. Funny, Yeah, that's uh, they'll yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: they got a lot of space in those beaks, might

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Speaker 1: as well fill it up with baby birds. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean a lot of it, A lot of it. Especially

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Speaker 1: these these acts of predation. They do come down to

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Speaker 1: the the raw economy of of life. I mean you

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Speaker 1: see it, especially in examples of say, cannibalism um. And

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Speaker 1: and also we've talked a bit about this on the

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Speaker 1: show with the coprophagiah the consumption of poop, which which

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Speaker 1: once you boil away, boil down, you take away so

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Speaker 1: many of the human complications associated with the topic. You're like,

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Speaker 1: well that makes sense for an animal. Yeah, You're you're

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Speaker 1: being efficient. You're recycling food, digesting it and then saving it,

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Speaker 1: so a lot for a lot of animals. It's also

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Speaker 1: like the special poops that aren't really pooped, they're like

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Speaker 1: food poop. Uh, specifically like in guinea pigs and wombats

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Speaker 1: and stuff, they make the little food poops pops. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also with the cannibalism, I think it can be

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Speaker 1: really counterintuitive. So like filial cannibalism, um seem like, well

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Speaker 1: why would you do that, You're you're gonna be an

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Speaker 1: evolutionary dead end. But with fish, um, when they practice

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Speaker 1: eating their own babies, um, they're actually picking out the

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Speaker 1: ones that are the least fit, so the slowest to develop,

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Speaker 1: and then that way they can spend all their time

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Speaker 1: investing in the baby fish that are most likely too

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Speaker 1: mature to adulthood. So they're um, they're both benefiting from

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Speaker 1: the extra nutrition from eating their babies, and then also

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Speaker 1: the time um focused on the most likely to succeed.

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Speaker 1: So it's this very cruel capitalist, uh like economic um

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Speaker 1: cost benefits analysis that these fish do. They don't really

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Speaker 1: have any sentiment for their own offspring, going all in

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Speaker 1: on the best ones exactly. H doesn't help that they're

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Speaker 1: called fries, which sounds delicious. Baby fish are called fries sous.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday I was listening to a couple of recent episodes

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Speaker 1: of your show, which I I must say, I really enjoyed.

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Speaker 1: I was listening to the ones about animals who are

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Speaker 1: worse at sex, and there was one that we've talked

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Speaker 1: about on the show before that I really thought might

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Speaker 1: come up, but but y'all didn't mention. And it's the

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Speaker 1: male nursery web spider. Do you do you know about

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Speaker 1: this one? Tell me a little more about it. The

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Speaker 1: it's the one that so they bring nuptial gifts that

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Speaker 1: in order to yeah, to woo the female spiders. The

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Speaker 1: males bring like a package that's supposed to be a

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Speaker 1: food item wrapped in silk. But the way that the

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Speaker 1: bad gift giving comes in is that a lot of

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Speaker 1: them try to pass off a insect husk that they

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Speaker 1: have already drained of all the delicious fluids, or like

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Speaker 1: a little or like a little twig. Yeah, yeah, just

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Speaker 1: like nothing, and they're they're trying to cheat and such

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Speaker 1: dirt bags. It's yeah, So I've actually I have heard

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Speaker 1: of this and I've done a little bit of reading

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Speaker 1: about it, and it's it's so interesting because they'll do

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Speaker 1: a really elaborate wrapping jobs. So it'says if someone hands

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Speaker 1: you this beautifully wrapped gift with bows and ribbons and spangles,

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Speaker 1: and then uh, it takes you, like it takes you

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Speaker 1: a long time to unwrap it, and as you're unwrapping it,

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Speaker 1: there like making the moves on you, and like by

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Speaker 1: the time you open the gift and it's like a rock,

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Speaker 1: they've already copulated with you. And then you're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: get back here, but then they're they're running off laughing.

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Speaker 1: I think we did read a study, just off my memory,

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Speaker 1: I think we were a study when we talked about

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Speaker 1: this that found that the ones who brought bad gifts

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Speaker 1: were more likely to be the victims of sexual cannibalism afterwards.

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Speaker 1: That's right, So, like I mean, it makes sense too.

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Speaker 1: So if you've brought a you're you're taking a big

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Speaker 1: risk there because while you are getting rid of the

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Speaker 1: cost of hunting for a piece of food, Um, once

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Speaker 1: they open it and nothing's there, they're gonna go to

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Speaker 1: prey mode because or pre it or more mode because

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Speaker 1: they don't have a snack. So you know, they're like, oh, hey,

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Speaker 1: well there's a snack over there that was just having

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Speaker 1: sex with me, so I'll eat that. Do you do

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Speaker 1: you have a favorite example that you wanna tell the

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Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind crowd about from the Bad

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Speaker 1: Sex episode? Well, I think my favorite is, um the

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Speaker 1: uh the new to branch uh having disposable penises, because um,

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting. So uh they will have, uh, they'll

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Speaker 1: copulate and then after copulation, they'll just shed their penis.

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Speaker 1: Um and oh, by the way, new tole branches are

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Speaker 1: these really interesting? They look like um, uh they're a

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Speaker 1: marine animal that looks like a sort of beautiful snails

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Speaker 1: or slug with all these colors and there are pretty

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Speaker 1: neat looking um and so uh it'll once it sheds

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Speaker 1: the penis, it grows one back within twenty four hours

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Speaker 1: because it actually has this big coil of um of

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Speaker 1: genital material uh inside of its body, and so it's

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Speaker 1: like a fruit by the foot that just kind of

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Speaker 1: like um keeps coming out. And the reason it does this,

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Speaker 1: it actually has a really good reason. So it's too

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Speaker 1: basically ensure that when it copulates, it's given like it's

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Speaker 1: all fresh um uh sperm material. So it's all its

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Speaker 1: own sperm material, and it's able to um. It's like

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Speaker 1: decreases the chance that it's going to get uh sperm

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Speaker 1: from a previous copulation with the other new to branch

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Speaker 1: on its penis, and then if it sheds, it puts

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Speaker 1: a new one in. Then it's like guaranteed that that

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be all its own genetic material. And

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Speaker 1: it's like the lysol wipe method of mating. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was thinking when I was listening to that of like

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Speaker 1: those things where you tear a ticket off at the

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Speaker 1: at the deli counter or something number forty two, servicing

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Speaker 1: number forty two. These are beautiful creatures, though I was

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Speaker 1: just looking at images of them. They look kind of

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Speaker 1: like eighties glam rock slugs. They really do um. They

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Speaker 1: and there's so many different kinds. Some of them look

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Speaker 1: like dragons. Some of them look like a scrunchy from

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Speaker 1: the eighties, like you were saying, they're uh, they're beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Animals are also hermaphrodites, so they they have the capability

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Speaker 1: of having both sexual organs, which is really interesting. All Right,

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Speaker 1: we need to take a quick break, but we will

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Speaker 1: be right back with more of our conversation with Katie.

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Speaker 1: Thank thank Alright, we're back now on Creature Feature. It's

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Speaker 1: it's of course, not only just about animals. It's also

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Speaker 1: about the guests that you have on to discuss these animals. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So each episode has a particular guest in a particular

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Speaker 1: theme or topic in place. How do you go about

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Speaker 1: putting those two together, Like which comes first, the guests

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Speaker 1: or the topic? Well, so all right, it's usually the

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Speaker 1: topic first, so I'll write my notes, and then I

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Speaker 1: kind of tried to think about guests who might fit

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Speaker 1: best with that topic. So, for instance, I was really

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Speaker 1: interested in looking at vices in um uh in the

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Speaker 1: animal world, so drug use drinking, birds who get drunk, uh,

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Speaker 1: animals who seek out natural highs um and so the

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Speaker 1: guest I chose. Robert Evans has written a book on

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Speaker 1: the history of advice and he talks a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the evolutionary history of getting drunk and uh so

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Speaker 1: he was perfect for that episode also because he's tried

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Speaker 1: out some really interesting drugs. Yeah, he's He of course

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Speaker 1: is also the host of Behind the Bastards. That's right,

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Speaker 1: that's right, it's a great podcast. So earlier you mentioned

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Speaker 1: that when you were a child you were not able

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Speaker 1: to actually make friends with birds. And on the show

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Speaker 1: on Creature feature you interview humans. But if you could

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Speaker 1: have one bird on the show as a guest, and

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Speaker 1: you could actually speak to that bird and ask you questions,

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Speaker 1: which bird species would you choose? Oh, that's a really

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Speaker 1: good question. I think, uh, any species of parasitic birds,

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Speaker 1: so cuckoos or cowbirds or honey guides because they're so sneaky.

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Speaker 1: Um if for those of you who don't know, cuckoos

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Speaker 1: will uh lay their eggs in the nests of host

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Speaker 1: species these uh and trick them into raising their own young.

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Speaker 1: And they use a lot of different strategies, like sometimes

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Speaker 1: the baby chicks have voices that sound like a bunch

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Speaker 1: of baby birds, So then the host species feels compelled

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Speaker 1: to feed it way more food than they would normally

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Speaker 1: feed a single baby bird. They also push out the

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Speaker 1: babies from the nests. Um. And when we'll kill the

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Speaker 1: host species, real babies. Um. And sometimes the cuckoo parents

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Speaker 1: will disguise themselves as raptors, so have the uh have

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Speaker 1: stripes on their bellies and curved beaks that will look

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Speaker 1: make them look like predatory birds. Um. And they're so

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Speaker 1: devious that I feel like it would be they would

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Speaker 1: be really interesting to interview, like like interviewing criminal or

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Speaker 1: something where it's just like like why why do you

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Speaker 1: do this? And um, uh like how how could you

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Speaker 1: so like a hard hitting sixty minutes styled Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like Frost v. Nixon like me versus Birdston, Like why

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Speaker 1: did they always keep going back into the prison to

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Speaker 1: interview Charles Manson again? It's like is he going to

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Speaker 1: have something good to say this time? Yeah? Like a

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Speaker 1: true bird crime podcast where yeah, like like why do

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Speaker 1: you do these crimes? Birds? Stop it? So I've got

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Speaker 1: another question along those lines. I assume you have the

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Speaker 1: same kind of uh attitude in general toward animal life

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Speaker 1: that we do, which is like we try not to

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Speaker 1: have negative emotions about animal behaviors and and always just

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Speaker 1: like have a sense of wonder about the natural world

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Speaker 1: and positive feelings about animals, even when they do things

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Speaker 1: that if humans did then we would find them disgusting.

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Speaker 1: But is there an animal that you find you you

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Speaker 1: can't separate your emotional reaction from, Like there's just some

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Speaker 1: animal that you can't help but feel contempt for even

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Speaker 1: though you know you shouldn't. Yeah, So I think it's

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Speaker 1: interesting because a lot of animals that normally you would

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Speaker 1: feel discussed for, like spiders or even even things like

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Speaker 1: parasitic wasps that are really disgusting, I'm too interested in

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Speaker 1: to find truly disgusting, So I think, in all honesty,

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Speaker 1: even though I understand that like that cockroaches and then

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Speaker 1: other pests and and things like parasites. So when my

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Speaker 1: dog gets fleas or a tick, or when she was

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Speaker 1: a puppy she had round worm, as a lot of

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Speaker 1: puppies have the disgust I feel for those kinds of

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Speaker 1: insects is too much for me to overcome, because while

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Speaker 1: I find parasites actually really fascinating, when it's affecting my dog,

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Speaker 1: who I love, you know, it's I just feel so angry.

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Speaker 1: So when I would capture a tick guy would be

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Speaker 1: like cursing at it and and be like, you know

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Speaker 1: you messed up now, buddy, because I messed with the

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Speaker 1: wrong dog. Um. And it's really the only time that

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Speaker 1: I because like I don't I don't like to kill

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Speaker 1: spiders that are in my house, So like I'll I'll

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Speaker 1: capture them and release them outside and give them like

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Speaker 1: a little snack of tiny sandwich to take with them

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Speaker 1: because I care about them. But like finding a tick, yeah,

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Speaker 1: finding like fleas, I really get so angry that I

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Speaker 1: have to kill them because it's like, how dare you

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Speaker 1: hurt my dog? What did she ever do to you? Well,

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Speaker 1: they are these are the animals that are still the enemy.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's you can't look at ketos and ticks,

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Speaker 1: mosquitoes ticks and it's like guinea worm. I mean, these

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Speaker 1: these things are still enemies of humanity. If there's anything

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Speaker 1: that truly deserves our hatred and contempt in the animal world,

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Speaker 1: I think that's probably it. Yeah. I mean, like I

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Speaker 1: can't even though find my way to eating like rats,

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Speaker 1: because I mean I'm afraid of them. I don't want

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Speaker 1: them in my house. But once one got in my

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Speaker 1: heating vent and like lived there for a while, and

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Speaker 1: I kind of halfheartedly put some traps in there because

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, I can't have this rat in here,

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Speaker 1: you know, pooping in my and where the air comes in.

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Speaker 1: But um it in a trap went off, and I

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Speaker 1: felt kind of like, h huh, that's I'm sad. I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm relieved, but sad. I feel bad that I killed

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Speaker 1: a rat. And then I opened up the vent and

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Speaker 1: there was the trap with like a tuft of hair

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Speaker 1: in it, and the rat was nowhere to be found.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, at that point, I was like,

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Speaker 1: you've deserved it, buddy. He deserved to survive. So I

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Speaker 1: didn't mess with it anymore. Eventually it went away, but

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Speaker 1: it was just like, you know, I just had this

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Speaker 1: rat living in my vent. It's like, oh, there's Mr

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Speaker 1: Wiggles doing his thing. I find that I have complex

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Speaker 1: emotions regarding like rats and mice and so forth in

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Speaker 1: our urban environments, because on one level, I'm like, you're rat,

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Speaker 1: you're not supposed to be here. But then I have

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Speaker 1: been by I mean, you know, humans, we've done so

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Speaker 1: much to unbalance the environment by building a house here,

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Speaker 1: by having all these uh these these artificial food sources

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Speaker 1: in the area. Uh, it's really on us that that

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Speaker 1: they're here at all anyway, And so then I end

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Speaker 1: up feeling guilty for for having to put out the traps,

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Speaker 1: even though they're the ones that are breaking into my home. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's not to them, it's not our our homes. It's

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Speaker 1: like this is their natural environment because they've learned to

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Speaker 1: they've learned to survive in human environment. And that's so

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Speaker 1: interesting because for most animals, when humans move in, they

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Speaker 1: just die off or move out. And for the animals

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Speaker 1: that can actually adapt to human society and thrive, we hate.

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Speaker 1: We hate them for being able to do that. We

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Speaker 1: resent them for invading our bass even though you know,

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Speaker 1: if anything, were the invaders that are encroaching on most

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Speaker 1: animal territory and typically just breaking havoc and wiping them outain.

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Speaker 1: And we have these these scamp few hero animals that

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Speaker 1: are able to live with us, and then we're we

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Speaker 1: have the goal to hate them for it. Hating hating

426
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: a rat for getting into your pasta boxes or whatever.

427
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: It is almost like hating a dog for loving, you know,

428
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: it's just like what we made them do, right, right,

429
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: they co evolved with us over thousands and thousands of

430
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: years dogs and rats and somehow rats are the bad guys.

431
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: You know. We actually talked about this in a couple

432
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: of episodes we did UM earlier this year about the

433
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: idea of urban evolution, ways that animals are adapting to

434
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: urban landscapes. And there's a lot of fascinating stuff going

435
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: on with animals in urban spaces, like the idea that

436
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: in some cases, uh, that urban spaces might be selecting

437
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: for personality traits and animals like neophilia, where like a

438
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: racu raccoon has a better chance of surviving in a

439
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: city if it's the kind of raccoon with a personality

440
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,239
Speaker 1: that wants to approach unfamiliar objects rather than regard them

441
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 1: with caution. Yeah. Yeah, that's It's very interesting because you

442
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: can take an animal that is feral and over you know,

443
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: just a few generations start to find surprisingly uh tame traits.

444
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 1: So there you know that experiment with UM the silver

445
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: foxes in Russia where uh they were breeding them for

446
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: they're testing to see if they could breed in these

447
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: more tame traits and UM over, I mean it was

448
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: like a couple of decades, but uh, just a few

449
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: like several generations of these foxes, they would do the

450
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 1: ones that had that neophilia where it's not that they

451
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: were fearful of humans or aggressive towards humans, but sort

452
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: of politely interested in humans. And then they kept selecting

453
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: those foxes, and then they started having patchy fur, like

454
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: having spots and patches like dogs do on their coats.

455
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: And then there the cartilage in their ears became softer,

456
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: and so they would have ears that would fold down, uh,

457
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: like in dogs. So it's really interesting to see how

458
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: those tame characteristics that we see in dogs have some

459
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: there must be some shared genetic links where some the

460
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: genes responsible for a more curious, tame personality can also

461
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: be linked to something just superficial like ear cartilage. Uh So,

462
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: I think that's really I wonder if raccoons had enough

463
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: generations of these tame, more curious raccoons, if they would

464
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: start to, you know, like look cuter in some way.

465
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: Like we actually hypothesized that in the episode. We were like,

466
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: I wonder if over many generations, city dwelling animals will

467
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: tend to become cuter. Raccoons kind of have a leg

468
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: up on the situation because they are already pretty cute.

469
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: I mean, have you seen the video of the raccoon

470
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: trying to wash cotton candy? Yes? Always sad, heartbreaking, it's

471
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: the human condition. It's a modern day sisyphis because the

472
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: ra the sorry, the raccoon has this piece of cotton candy,

473
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: it's given and so because it's a raccoon and they

474
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: like to wash their food because they're so fastidious that

475
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: he went into the river and tried to wash it

476
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: and it dissolved and he's like, what is this? What

477
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: is this witchcraft? He gets a new piece of cotton

478
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: candy but does the same thing and he doesn't learn.

479
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: I know, poor baby. So Katie, uh we again, we

480
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: talk a lot about biology on the show, and one

481
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: of our favorite topics as well is monsters, both in

482
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: terms of the biological hybridity that is often on display

483
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: with them and because no matter how bizarre the monster noot,

484
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: no matter how weird the creature, and a you know,

485
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: science fiction film happens to be nature usually has it

486
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: beat for weirdness. So we were wondering, do you have

487
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: any favorite monsters or film or fiction that invoke real

488
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: world biology in some way, shape or form. Mm hmm. Yeah,

489
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: actually I do. So do you know that video game

490
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: The Last of Us, So they have the I guess

491
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: the monsters in the game are the people that have

492
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: been infected with this zombiesque virus um. But it's not

493
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: actually sorry, it's not a virus at all. Um. It's

494
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: a fungus. So it's called courtis Ups in the game.

495
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: And it's really cool because I think the game designers

496
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: were paying attention to actual evolutionary biology because Court of

497
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: Steps is a type of fungus that does in fact

498
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: infect the brains of insects. So in the game, this

499
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: fungus creates spores that you will breathe in and it'll

500
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 1: affect infect your brain, causing you to be aggressive. Um.

501
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: And then some of the later monsters are have this

502
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: like really creepy overgrowth of fungus, just like sprouting out

503
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: of their heads and growing over their bodies. Um. And

504
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: in fact, like court a scepts in real life, this

505
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: fungus will uh grow sprout out of the heads of

506
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: ants and other insects and cause them to kind of

507
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: go a little cookie, so they will leave. They'll either

508
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: be carried off by fellow ants who are like, oh,

509
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: this is uh, this is a zombie ant, so they'll

510
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: carry it off, and those ants that actually carry the

511
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: infected ant will go on a suicide mission because they're like, well,

512
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: we're going to get infected too, so we don't want

513
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: to risk the rest of the colony um which is

514
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: also very kind of like a trope from um zombie movies.

515
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: But so the the infected ant, once it's off on

516
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: its own and it's in the final stages of this infection,

517
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: it will have this this like instinct to climb up

518
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: either a plant stalk or up a branch as high

519
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: as it can and then clean bite down on it.

520
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: Do this like death grip, a literal death grip, because

521
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: it dies and then the fungus sprouts out of its

522
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: head and then it will produce spores that will spread

523
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: and hopefully infect another insect. So it's controlled this insect

524
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: to become like an incubator for more spores, just like

525
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: the in the Last of Us, which I think it's

526
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: really one of my favorite I know it's a video game,

527
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: but it's like, to me, beats a lot of the

528
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: zombie movies or zombie genre because it's so cool and

529
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: how carefully they constructed this zombie scenario. I'm not a

530
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: big gamer, but I've played that game multiple times. I

531
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: think it's really excellent, and I love the mythology there.

532
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: It reminds me a little bit of of a nineteen

533
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: sixty three Toho movie from Japan called Matango, not in

534
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: a way where I think there's actually any connective tissue

535
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: between the films, And I don't think Metango has a

536
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: lot of science in it. It's got mushroom, has mushroom monsters,

537
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: and like the mushroom spores turn humans into like into

538
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: gradually more mushroom e creatures. That's interesting, that's so cool.

539
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: One of the things that's so fascinating about stuff like

540
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,239
Speaker 1: the Court accepts parasite, though, is the specificity of the

541
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: behaviors that generates, you know, like you can imagine very

542
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: it feels more natural to say, okay, you could get

543
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: some kind of parasite that would have a very very

544
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: broad kind of effect on your behavior, like maybe the way, Oh,

545
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: what's the toxoplasma one the idea that it that it

546
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: toxoplasma toxoplasma Gandhi. I think it's called that it uh.

547
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: It reduces the fear and caution and inhibitions and mice,

548
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: so that they're more likely to go out and be

549
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: eaten by a cat, and it increases their attraction to

550
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: the what the smell of cat urine or something like that, Right,

551
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: there's a lesion between the parts of the brain responsible

552
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: for arousal and fear, and so it it it's like

553
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: it it actually rewires their brains, so they associate that

554
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: that fear response from the smell of cat urine with

555
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: a arousal Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's like the the excitation

556
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: part of anxiety without the being repat old part of anxiety,

557
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: right right, But but that's easier for me to just

558
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: internalize and understand because it seems like that's actually a

559
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: very broad and kind of easy change to make to

560
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: the brain. In a way, it's fascinating the specificity of

561
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: the ant behaviors that are created by the parasite in

562
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: the case of corticeps, yeah, and there's other other um

563
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: examples of that. So the parasitoid wasp will infect or

564
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 1: weaver spiders um with their larva, So the wasp will

565
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: attack the or weber spider and then lay it's larva

566
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,479
Speaker 1: either h inside of the spider or just on top

567
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: of the spider and it clings to the spider and

568
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: um it makes it do what seems like this really

569
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: specific behavior, So instead of weaving its normal pretty web,

570
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: it will start weaving like this cocoon, an extra strong

571
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: cocoon that will eventually become sort of this cradle for

572
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: the parasites offspring UM so that it can be it

573
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: can safely develop and kind of in to twist the knife,

574
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: the the larva will eventually eat the host spider and

575
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: just discard its carcass uh and so it's it's really

576
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: interesting because it's hard to imagine how is this larva

577
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: controlling the brain of this spiders so that it weaves

578
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: It's in a cocoon that seems so specific, so detailed,

579
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: And what researchers have found is it there's a hormone,

580
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: a chemical that the larva produces that is actually associated

581
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 1: with the orb weavers spiders one of its molting stages.

582
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: So when it's molding, it wants to create a cocoon

583
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: made out of these especially strong fibers and they're also um.

584
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: They they have this sort of ultra violet UH light

585
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: so that other insects won't fly into it. While it's molting,

586
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: and that protects it when it's vulnerable so high the

587
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: larva hijacks the orb beaver and makes it think it's molting.

588
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: But it's even stronger than um normally, so it's like

589
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: it's pumping it full of this chemical that it's almost

590
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: goes into this super molting stage where it creates an

591
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: extra safe and protective cocoon that eventually the parasite will use,

592
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: uh at the expense of the poor little spider. That's fascinating.

593
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: I guess what it really means is that a lot

594
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: of the behaviors we think of as very specific and

595
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: very complex are actually just much easier to trigger by

596
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: exploiting existing hormones and circuitry and stuff than we would think. Yeah,

597
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: and I think that's why you find it in insects

598
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: much because they have while they do have very complex behavior,

599
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: their brains are a great deal smaller and I think

600
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: easier to reprogram. And I mean the same thing with rats.

601
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: I think that it would be a lot more difficult

602
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: to say too, reprogram primate to do a very specific behavior,

603
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: although you could argue that with rabies, the some of

604
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: the behaviors like aggression and excessive drooling and hydrophobia are

605
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: all uh beneficial for the rabies virus to spread, so

606
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: so you know it is it can happen. All right,

607
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: hold that thought, because we're gonna take a quick break

608
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: and be right back with more of this interview than Okay,

609
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: we're back alright, Katie. One question that we we have

610
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: frequently asked guests on the show, especially if they have

611
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: any interest in biology at all, is this, what is

612
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: your favorite dinosaur or prehistoric creature. Ah, that's a really

613
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: good question. Uh. I would have to say archaeopterics because

614
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 1: it's the predecessor to birds. It's uh that that first

615
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: gliding dinosaur that uh, and it's so it's really interesting

616
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: to see that transition from um, the the kind of

617
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 1: raptor esque dinosaurs that had no no interest, no need

618
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: to fly, and then the archaeopterics what couldn't fly exactly,

619
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: but it did glide, so it would kind of climb

620
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: up a tree and then really clumsily glide from one

621
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: tree to the other. And I just think that's it's

622
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: so cool to me how flight has independently evolved, uh

623
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: in so many different species that you just never spect

624
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: so uh, you have flying squirrels, which is sort of

625
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: like the arc the optics of animals because they do

626
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: the same thing where they kind of have um developed

627
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: that gliding um ability. And then obviously there's also bats

628
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: who have developed that more a little more um efficiently.

629
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: And uh. In insects, flight evolved from actually like their

630
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: wings sprouted from their lungs tissue, and so you see

631
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: like with dragonflies there how wings are very close to

632
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 1: where their their gills and lungs are and it's it's

633
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: just I find it so cool that dinosaurs just you know,

634
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 1: decided to become birds eventually. Uh. Speaking of other versions

635
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: of evolving gliding, we just recently talked about flying snakes,

636
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: which which is fascinating the way that they can flat

637
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: their bodies out into a concave shape to create that

638
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: kind of wing that they undulate in the air to

639
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: to help prolong their gliding period. Yeah, and that's so

640
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: cool because they do have Snakes have these really interesting

641
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: muscle skeletal structures that allow them to contract their muscles

642
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: and expand them in the act of swallowing food. So well,

643
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know this for a fact, but

644
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: I would assume that the that gliding those gliding snakes

645
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: have kind of they use those same muscles that are

646
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: so good at swallowing and pushing food down through their

647
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: very long trachea and bodies to digest, they can use

648
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: that same those same kinds of structures to be able

649
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: to flatten themselves and achieve the gliding structure. Do you

650
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: guys know if that's that's the case. No, I didn't.

651
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: I haven't read anything about that, but that's a very

652
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: good point. I would assume that's probably true. It seems

653
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: like it is. It's kind of but I know for

654
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: a fact. Yeah. So, speaking of feather dinosaurs, do you

655
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: do you also get worked up when you see dinosaur

656
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: movies and there's not a feather to be found. Yes, yeah,

657
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: I think that. Here's the thing is, I think this

658
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: is such a good opportunity now that we know. I'm

659
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: fine with classics like Jurassic Park that the dinosaurs don't

660
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,479
Speaker 1: have feathers because we just didn't know back then. So

661
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: that's fine. But now we do know, and people I

662
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: hear people say like, oh, it would look so stupid,

663
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 1: and I don't think so. No, exactly, birds don't look stupid.

664
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: They look amazing. So can you imagine like a a

665
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: raptor with fully feathered it would look glorious. Uh. And

666
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting there's this habit of UH artists

667
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: who recreate animal images from fossils of doing what's called

668
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: I think it's called shrink wrapping, where you ignore, you

669
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: don't know, muscle and fat tissoe precisely, so there's a

670
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 1: tendency to underestimate how plump something is and how fluffy

671
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: it is. So uh and I've seen there's this really

672
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: cool image online where this artist made examples of it

673
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: by uh working backwards from like a swan skeleton to

674
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: create yeah, to create that like swan like animal, as

675
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: if as if the swan skeleton were a dinosaur fossil,

676
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: and and what it would look like if it was

677
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: interpreted in the way that dinosaurs are. And it's horrifying

678
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 1: and swans are lovely. So I feel like we should

679
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: be giving, you know, just giving real dinosaurs have curves,

680
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: is what I'm saying. Wow that, Yeah, I've never thought

681
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: about that, it would even modern skeletons. But I think

682
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: we're all three totally on the same page. And I

683
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: think even if you're not going to make them beautiful

684
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: if you're trying to make them terrifying. Can you imagine?

685
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: I think that the predators would be more frightening if

686
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: they were covered in feathers. Isn't imagine being eaten by

687
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: a giant bird? That makes even less sense than eaten

688
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: by a lizard. Oh. I mean, since since I was

689
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: a kid, I've been I was always intrigued by these

690
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: paleo art illustrations of terror birds snatching up um I

691
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: forget the scientific name, but the dawn horses, the miniature

692
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: prehistoric horses. Just the idea of this already large bird

693
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 1: eating small horses, uh just filled me with dread and

694
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 1: uh and I would love to see well, like where

695
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: the terror bird movies. It seems like like this is

696
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: an untapped area of riches here. Yeah, I mean I

697
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: feel like if you try to imagine lying on your

698
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: stomach and looking up at like a chicken, because if

699
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: you look at it from that perspective, it's actually kind

700
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: of scary. They have those dead reptilian eyes, sharp claws,

701
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: and just this look of anger. There's a Werner Herzog

702
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: quote about chickens about how I can't from memory just

703
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: do the exact quote, but it's something about how chickens

704
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: are just so innately achingly stupid in me, he says,

705
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: when you when you look into the eyes of the chicken,

706
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: the the immensity of the stupidity is breathtaking. Uh. And

707
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: if you if you make Verner Herzog feel despair, it's

708
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: you've got something going on, because that man is is

709
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: a nihilist two and all nilism. Well, Katie, do you

710
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: have anything coming out soon on the show that you

711
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: specifically want people to watch out for and and listen

712
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: when it when it hits the feed. Yeah. So I'm

713
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: looking into evil in the animal and human world, and

714
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: there's this really fascinating concept in criminal psychology called the

715
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: dark tetrad, and I look at the animals and humans

716
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: that best exemplify this evil behavior and it's it's really cool.

717
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: It's it's actually kind of metal. So I'm excited for it.

718
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,959
Speaker 1: And can you remind all of our listeners here where

719
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: they can find Creature feature when it publishes, and where

720
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: they can find you on social media? Yeah. So it

721
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: publishes every Wednesday. Uh. And you can find it on

722
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: the I Heart radio app, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, pretty much

723
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 1: anywhere you can get your podcasts um. You can find

724
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: us on Twitter, Facebook, and our website is Creature Feature Pod.

725
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: Our Twitter is Creature Feet Pod. Not feet as in

726
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, animal feet, but feet as in they have

727
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: achieved a great feat. All right, well, it has been

728
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: a delight to talk to you today, Katie. Thank you

729
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Yeah, thanks for having all right,

730
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: so there you have it again. The show is Creature Feature.

731
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: The host is Katie Golden. You can find them at

732
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: Creature Feature Pod dot com. As for Stuff to Blow

733
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: your Mind, you can always find us at our mothership

734
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where you'll

735
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: find all the episodes of the podcast. You'll find links

736
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: out to our various social media accounts. You'll find that

737
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: cool store button at the top of the page. That's

738
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: where you can go to our t public page and

739
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: buy some cool merch with our logo on it, with

740
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: our cool skug King of the Rats design, or our

741
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: Cambrian Life logo or of course all hell the Great Basilisk.

742
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: These are all fine uh purchases you can made, especially

743
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: make especially as we get into the holidays here, and

744
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: it's a great way to support the show. And if

745
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 1: you want to support the show in a way that

746
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: doesn't cost you any money at all, simply rate and

747
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: review us wherever you have the power to do so.

748
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, thanks again to Katie for joining us today.

749
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: Big thanks as always to our excellent audio producers Alex

750
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: Williams and Try Harris. For a way to get in

751
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: touch with us, you could email us. You can email

752
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: us ideas for new episodes. You can email us feedback

753
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: on this episode or any other. You can just email

754
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 1: us to say hi, let us know where you listen from,

755
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: how you found out about the show, all that kind

756
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: of stuff at our account. Blow the mind at how

757
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

758
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.

759
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: B