1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:20,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin. When I was a little kid, my father used 2 00:00:20,396 --> 00:00:24,156 Speaker 1: to tell this story about when he was a young 3 00:00:24,276 --> 00:00:28,996 Speaker 1: lawyer in New Orleans. It was one of those stories 4 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:30,756 Speaker 1: that sound a bit different to you as a grown 5 00:00:30,836 --> 00:00:34,396 Speaker 1: up than as a child, but maybe all stories do anyway. 6 00:00:34,796 --> 00:00:38,676 Speaker 1: In my father's telling, he just started at a law firm, 7 00:00:38,716 --> 00:00:41,876 Speaker 1: and that firm had been hired by a big railroad company. 8 00:00:42,796 --> 00:00:46,276 Speaker 1: The railroad was defending itself against one of its own employees. 9 00:00:47,236 --> 00:00:50,836 Speaker 1: This poor worker had lost his arms in an accident 10 00:00:51,236 --> 00:00:55,236 Speaker 1: for which the railroad was clearly responsible. My father's job 11 00:00:55,356 --> 00:00:57,956 Speaker 1: was to minimize the amount of money that the railroad 12 00:00:58,036 --> 00:01:02,116 Speaker 1: had to pay to the employee. My dad went hunting 13 00:01:02,196 --> 00:01:05,436 Speaker 1: for a creative defense. I don't know where I got 14 00:01:05,516 --> 00:01:10,916 Speaker 1: the idea, but the idea was that handicap people I 15 00:01:11,396 --> 00:01:16,636 Speaker 1: can still work. That's my dad, Tom Lewis. His hunt 16 00:01:16,636 --> 00:01:20,076 Speaker 1: for a creative defense led him to Nashville, Tennessee, where 17 00:01:20,076 --> 00:01:24,076 Speaker 1: he found well, he actually found an expert who trained 18 00:01:24,116 --> 00:01:27,356 Speaker 1: people with no arms to do lots of amazing things. 19 00:01:28,236 --> 00:01:30,916 Speaker 1: This expert promised to show any jury that it wasn't 20 00:01:30,916 --> 00:01:32,956 Speaker 1: a big deal at all to lose your arms. You 21 00:01:32,956 --> 00:01:36,436 Speaker 1: could still do so much. My father was so impressed 22 00:01:36,436 --> 00:01:38,036 Speaker 1: that he flew the guide in New Orleans and put 23 00:01:38,116 --> 00:01:42,076 Speaker 1: him on a witness stand as an expert witness. And 24 00:01:42,116 --> 00:01:44,636 Speaker 1: he said, oh, yes, he said, and then he started 25 00:01:44,676 --> 00:01:47,196 Speaker 1: to give me exam that this is on the stand 26 00:01:47,316 --> 00:01:51,876 Speaker 1: for example, says he. I deal with the man who 27 00:01:51,956 --> 00:01:55,596 Speaker 1: had lost the use of his arms or hands, and 28 00:01:55,636 --> 00:02:02,356 Speaker 1: we taught him to type with his toes. When I 29 00:02:02,436 --> 00:02:04,716 Speaker 1: was a kid, my father used to really ham it up. 30 00:02:05,116 --> 00:02:07,236 Speaker 1: He had rolled back in his chair and raised his 31 00:02:07,356 --> 00:02:11,156 Speaker 1: feet high in the air. Because this expert was apparently 32 00:02:11,196 --> 00:02:15,556 Speaker 1: truly enthusiastic about his expertise, my dad would lift his 33 00:02:15,596 --> 00:02:19,196 Speaker 1: feet high over some imagine giant typewriter to show how 34 00:02:19,276 --> 00:02:22,956 Speaker 1: ridiculously easy it was to type with your toes. The 35 00:02:23,036 --> 00:02:30,116 Speaker 1: problem was it didn't really look easy, and it was 36 00:02:30,956 --> 00:02:36,716 Speaker 1: apparent even to me in my naive state at that time, 37 00:02:37,196 --> 00:02:40,876 Speaker 1: that that was not going over well with the jury 38 00:02:41,476 --> 00:02:49,756 Speaker 1: and the railroad got cloverty. To my kid brain, this 39 00:02:49,796 --> 00:02:52,596 Speaker 1: story had a couple of takeaways. Apart from the obvious 40 00:02:52,596 --> 00:02:54,916 Speaker 1: one that my father wasn't cut out to help a 41 00:02:55,036 --> 00:02:57,716 Speaker 1: railroad screw over a man who'd gotten hurt on the job, 42 00:02:58,756 --> 00:03:02,916 Speaker 1: My biggest takeaway was how well our system of justice worked. 43 00:03:03,756 --> 00:03:06,756 Speaker 1: The railroad was forced to fork over a huge pile 44 00:03:06,796 --> 00:03:09,956 Speaker 1: of money, and the expert had helped the jury to 45 00:03:09,996 --> 00:03:14,036 Speaker 1: see the truth, which is what experts are supposed to do. Right. 46 00:03:17,436 --> 00:03:21,116 Speaker 1: I'm Michael Lewis, and this is against the rules My 47 00:03:21,196 --> 00:03:24,916 Speaker 1: show about on fairness in American life. This season is 48 00:03:24,956 --> 00:03:28,756 Speaker 1: all about experts, and today's show is all about a 49 00:03:28,876 --> 00:03:33,796 Speaker 1: special kind of expert, maybe the most official kind, the 50 00:03:33,916 --> 00:03:52,196 Speaker 1: expert witness. A decade ago, some law professors set out 51 00:03:52,236 --> 00:03:55,916 Speaker 1: collecting data on all wrongful convictions in the United States, 52 00:03:56,796 --> 00:04:01,476 Speaker 1: the National Registry of Exonerations they called their project. They 53 00:04:01,516 --> 00:04:04,356 Speaker 1: only collected data going back to nineteen eighty nine, that 54 00:04:04,436 --> 00:04:07,636 Speaker 1: was the first year that DNA analysis could offer definitive 55 00:04:07,636 --> 00:04:11,516 Speaker 1: proof of a wrongful conviction. They've now counted more than 56 00:04:11,636 --> 00:04:15,796 Speaker 1: three thousand wrongful convictions, three thousand people sent to prison 57 00:04:15,836 --> 00:04:19,796 Speaker 1: when they should not have been, almost twenty seven thousand 58 00:04:19,876 --> 00:04:23,196 Speaker 1: years spent behind bars, all by people who should never 59 00:04:23,236 --> 00:04:25,916 Speaker 1: have been there in the first place. And that's obviously 60 00:04:25,956 --> 00:04:28,396 Speaker 1: just the tiniest sliver of the problem. These were the 61 00:04:28,396 --> 00:04:31,036 Speaker 1: people who were able to find people to help them. 62 00:04:31,196 --> 00:04:34,196 Speaker 1: Even with this small sample, the law professors could see 63 00:04:34,196 --> 00:04:39,956 Speaker 1: some patterns. The reasons why justice often miscarries in America, 64 00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:43,236 Speaker 1: there were two big ones. The first reason isn't all 65 00:04:43,236 --> 00:04:49,876 Speaker 1: that surprising the behavior of the police. They are intimidating 66 00:04:50,076 --> 00:04:58,076 Speaker 1: and threatening suspects. They're intimidating and threatening witnesses. Simon Cole, 67 00:04:58,156 --> 00:05:01,316 Speaker 1: a professor of criminology, Law and Society at ucu Arne, 68 00:05:01,756 --> 00:05:06,356 Speaker 1: now runs the Exonerations Project. They're getting people to lie, 69 00:05:07,156 --> 00:05:11,916 Speaker 1: they're hiding evidence, just a whole litany of kind of 70 00:05:11,916 --> 00:05:16,396 Speaker 1: behaviors like that. The second reason for all the wrongful 71 00:05:16,396 --> 00:05:20,916 Speaker 1: convictions was a bit less obvious, the expert witnesses who 72 00:05:20,956 --> 00:05:24,756 Speaker 1: take the stand in trials and help the prosecution. In 73 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:28,436 Speaker 1: about a quarter of the wrongful convictions, the experts were 74 00:05:28,436 --> 00:05:34,836 Speaker 1: at least partly responsible. The classic one is microscopic hair comparison, 75 00:05:35,596 --> 00:05:40,476 Speaker 1: where it's kind of well understood now that you could 76 00:05:40,556 --> 00:05:43,516 Speaker 1: say a person might be the source of a hair, 77 00:05:43,996 --> 00:05:49,196 Speaker 1: but no one in the microscopic hair comparison discipline would 78 00:05:49,196 --> 00:05:53,116 Speaker 1: ever say, now that a hair must come from one person, 79 00:05:53,716 --> 00:05:56,316 Speaker 1: from you, Michael Lewis, and not from any other person. 80 00:05:57,396 --> 00:06:01,556 Speaker 1: But at the trial they say something like the defendants 81 00:06:01,556 --> 00:06:07,036 Speaker 1: the source of the hair. So they've greatly overstated the 82 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:09,876 Speaker 1: value of the evidence and what the evidence can do. 83 00:06:12,476 --> 00:06:15,116 Speaker 1: People have been convicted and sentenced to life in prison 84 00:06:15,396 --> 00:06:19,156 Speaker 1: or even death on the word of hair experts, bite 85 00:06:19,156 --> 00:06:23,716 Speaker 1: mark experts, ballistic experts. Experts used to take the stand 86 00:06:23,756 --> 00:06:27,276 Speaker 1: to claim with certainty that a fire was arson. Then 87 00:06:27,356 --> 00:06:31,156 Speaker 1: actual science proved that the fire experts were almost always wrong. 88 00:06:32,116 --> 00:06:34,516 Speaker 1: A bunch of people were convicted for setting fires that 89 00:06:34,556 --> 00:06:38,156 Speaker 1: were not in fact set by anyone. It's not that 90 00:06:38,156 --> 00:06:41,356 Speaker 1: the expert witnesses know nothing, is that they don't know 91 00:06:41,556 --> 00:06:45,276 Speaker 1: nearly as much as they claim. The FBI pulled a 92 00:06:45,316 --> 00:06:49,116 Speaker 1: bunch of its transcripts from its own experts and said, 93 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:51,156 Speaker 1: we're going to go through these transcripts and see if 94 00:06:51,196 --> 00:06:55,236 Speaker 1: they testified erroneously. Again, it doesn't mean they made an 95 00:06:55,276 --> 00:06:57,316 Speaker 1: error in the hair analysis. It doesn't mean the guy 96 00:06:57,396 --> 00:06:59,796 Speaker 1: was innocent. It doesn't mean the hair wasn't from the guy. 97 00:06:59,876 --> 00:07:04,156 Speaker 1: But did they overstate the testimony right? Yes, they did 98 00:07:04,356 --> 00:07:08,796 Speaker 1: in ninety six percent of cases, right, every all the time. 99 00:07:09,476 --> 00:07:13,316 Speaker 1: And this is the FBI. If they're experts are screwing 100 00:07:13,396 --> 00:07:15,756 Speaker 1: up in this way, it's hard to imagine that most 101 00:07:15,796 --> 00:07:18,796 Speaker 1: other experts aren't as well. It seems to be like 102 00:07:18,876 --> 00:07:22,476 Speaker 1: across the board and these expertises that it's just a 103 00:07:22,516 --> 00:07:26,316 Speaker 1: systematic overstatement of one's level of certainty. And I'll tell 104 00:07:26,316 --> 00:07:28,276 Speaker 1: you why I think that is right. I think the 105 00:07:28,396 --> 00:07:31,436 Speaker 1: lawyers try to make you do it. That's their job 106 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:35,436 Speaker 1: to get the expert to go as far as they 107 00:07:35,476 --> 00:07:37,916 Speaker 1: can get them to go. I mean, they want the 108 00:07:37,956 --> 00:07:45,596 Speaker 1: expert to say they're certain. Back in nineteen eighty eight, 109 00:07:45,716 --> 00:07:48,956 Speaker 1: the state of California passed a new law. More than 110 00:07:48,996 --> 00:07:51,476 Speaker 1: thirty other states would go on to copy it. The 111 00:07:51,556 --> 00:07:54,916 Speaker 1: new law allowed prosecutors to demand extra prison time for 112 00:07:55,036 --> 00:07:58,076 Speaker 1: anyone convicted of a crime committed on behalf of a gang. 113 00:07:58,716 --> 00:08:01,076 Speaker 1: If you robbed a gas station, you might get seven 114 00:08:01,156 --> 00:08:03,236 Speaker 1: years in jail, unless you did it for a gang, 115 00:08:03,676 --> 00:08:06,636 Speaker 1: in which case you might get twenty years. These so 116 00:08:06,756 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 1: called gang enhancements affect roughly twelve thousand inmates just in 117 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:15,236 Speaker 1: California right now. Ninety two percent of these people serving 118 00:08:15,236 --> 00:08:21,196 Speaker 1: extra time or Black or Latino, an amazing statistic. So 119 00:08:21,276 --> 00:08:24,876 Speaker 1: for the past thirty years, American juries have had to 120 00:08:24,916 --> 00:08:28,556 Speaker 1: decide not just whether a defendant is guilty or not guilty, 121 00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:33,436 Speaker 1: they also have to decide gang member or not gang member? 122 00:08:34,196 --> 00:08:37,276 Speaker 1: Did he rob the gas station for the gang or 123 00:08:37,316 --> 00:08:40,196 Speaker 1: just to pay for his drug habit when he committed 124 00:08:40,236 --> 00:08:42,996 Speaker 1: his crime, what exactly was going on inside his head? 125 00:08:43,836 --> 00:08:45,956 Speaker 1: To figure it all out, courts have relied on a 126 00:08:45,996 --> 00:08:51,036 Speaker 1: new kind of expert, the gang expert. For thirty years. 127 00:08:51,316 --> 00:08:55,316 Speaker 1: That expert has almost always been a police officer, almost 128 00:08:55,316 --> 00:09:00,236 Speaker 1: always a male police officer, and this officer almost always 129 00:09:00,276 --> 00:09:04,636 Speaker 1: testifies that he's sure that whatever crime was committed was 130 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: for the benefit of a gang. I don't know, Maybe 131 00:09:08,396 --> 00:09:11,036 Speaker 1: it's just me, but I'd have thought it's at least 132 00:09:11,116 --> 00:09:13,716 Speaker 1: possible to find someone out there with a clearer sense 133 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:16,756 Speaker 1: of the motives of the kids who wind up in gangs, 134 00:09:16,796 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 1: someone who's actually had the experience. Okay, so we're gonna 135 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:24,196 Speaker 1: we're gonna get out of the car. Lja's gonna take 136 00:09:24,236 --> 00:09:30,196 Speaker 1: our phone. All right, we're going that way, right, we're 137 00:09:30,196 --> 00:09:33,596 Speaker 1: headed towards the overpath. It's actually not all that hard 138 00:09:33,636 --> 00:09:37,196 Speaker 1: to find someone like that, someone who's actually had the experience. 139 00:09:37,876 --> 00:09:40,436 Speaker 1: My producers did it in less than a day. So 140 00:09:40,516 --> 00:09:44,076 Speaker 1: whose territory are we in now? You're still in Shelltown. 141 00:09:45,116 --> 00:09:48,276 Speaker 1: Adam or Terra is a former gang member of San Diego, Shelltown, 142 00:09:48,676 --> 00:09:52,676 Speaker 1: the thirty eighth Street branch. There are two branches of Shelltown, 143 00:09:52,796 --> 00:09:55,796 Speaker 1: So you have Shelltowen, which is the neighborhood, ye, and 144 00:09:55,836 --> 00:09:58,076 Speaker 1: then you have the two branches this thirty eighth Street 145 00:09:58,156 --> 00:10:01,556 Speaker 1: and Gamma Street. So you're gonna see the Gang refeed, 146 00:10:01,596 --> 00:10:03,636 Speaker 1: you're gonna see a lot of the Three eights, and 147 00:10:03,676 --> 00:10:06,836 Speaker 1: then you're gonna see the GBS, which is Gamma Boys, 148 00:10:07,436 --> 00:10:09,996 Speaker 1: and then Gamma Streets you see on the floor where 149 00:10:09,996 --> 00:10:13,356 Speaker 1: you're walking. Yeah. Yeah, Adam lives in La now, but 150 00:10:13,396 --> 00:10:16,196 Speaker 1: he's giving me a tour of his old neighborhood over FaceTime. 151 00:10:17,036 --> 00:10:19,516 Speaker 1: I'm walking through a part of San Diego that some 152 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:22,436 Speaker 1: urban planner had once clearly hoped would be a park, 153 00:10:23,156 --> 00:10:25,476 Speaker 1: but instead it's become a place people avoid at night. 154 00:10:26,156 --> 00:10:29,356 Speaker 1: It's nestled beside a freeway overpass, and so there are 155 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:33,036 Speaker 1: lots of concrete surfaces and just about every inch of 156 00:10:33,076 --> 00:10:36,036 Speaker 1: them is covered in graffiti. To me, it's just an 157 00:10:36,036 --> 00:10:40,476 Speaker 1: incoherent mass of shapes and letters. To Adam, it's a language. 158 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:46,116 Speaker 1: You see the GBS right there, Uh gbs, Yeah, right there, 159 00:10:46,676 --> 00:10:50,676 Speaker 1: it's GBS. Gamma Boys. That's the Gamma Boys all right, Yes, 160 00:10:51,556 --> 00:10:54,036 Speaker 1: So if you keep walking and I'm probably are you 161 00:10:54,116 --> 00:10:57,236 Speaker 1: going to see Youngster's name right there? Because I'm pretty 162 00:10:57,236 --> 00:11:00,236 Speaker 1: sure I saw it when I was there. Oh yeah, 163 00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:04,676 Speaker 1: there was that youngster. Youngster, that's the name of someone 164 00:11:04,716 --> 00:11:06,716 Speaker 1: with a talent for spray painting, who Adam has taken 165 00:11:06,716 --> 00:11:10,636 Speaker 1: an interest in. Why, I'll explain in a minute. For now, 166 00:11:10,676 --> 00:11:12,796 Speaker 1: I just want you to listen to a guy who 167 00:11:12,796 --> 00:11:16,236 Speaker 1: knows a lot teaching me a guy who knows nothing. 168 00:11:16,556 --> 00:11:19,356 Speaker 1: And what's the ax over the end? Did someone try 169 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:22,116 Speaker 1: to ax it out? They put an X over the 170 00:11:22,316 --> 00:11:26,756 Speaker 1: end because one of the rivals of Shoutown is National City. 171 00:11:27,036 --> 00:11:29,516 Speaker 1: At an end, they put an X on it as 172 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:32,636 Speaker 1: a form of disrespect. God, there's so much meaning in 173 00:11:32,636 --> 00:11:34,676 Speaker 1: this thing. And why is there an X on the 174 00:11:34,716 --> 00:11:38,396 Speaker 1: bottom of the y that part? I don't know. I 175 00:11:38,436 --> 00:11:41,316 Speaker 1: was walking down under the freeway into what amounted to 176 00:11:41,356 --> 00:11:44,836 Speaker 1: the museum's main gallery. Adam was taking a trip down 177 00:11:44,836 --> 00:11:47,636 Speaker 1: memory lane to a time when it was his name 178 00:11:47,716 --> 00:11:52,676 Speaker 1: on these paintings, Perico. He signed himself little Parrot because 179 00:11:52,716 --> 00:11:56,916 Speaker 1: his older brother was the big Parrot. So I started 180 00:11:56,916 --> 00:11:59,476 Speaker 1: off with writing gang graffiti on the walls. Get it 181 00:11:59,476 --> 00:12:03,116 Speaker 1: into some fizz fights. Up until about the age of fourteen, 182 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:06,716 Speaker 1: Adam would have defined the word gang. It's just the 183 00:12:06,716 --> 00:12:09,516 Speaker 1: people he hung out with. He'd adored his ad but 184 00:12:09,556 --> 00:12:12,956 Speaker 1: his dad had vanished when he was five. Shelltown was 185 00:12:12,996 --> 00:12:16,836 Speaker 1: shockingly dangerous To keep safe, Adam stuck close to his 186 00:12:16,876 --> 00:12:19,876 Speaker 1: older brother and his friends. Without them, he was likely 187 00:12:19,916 --> 00:12:24,796 Speaker 1: to be robbed or beaten or worse. I was shot 188 00:12:24,836 --> 00:12:27,956 Speaker 1: at a few times, and then when I got shot at, 189 00:12:28,036 --> 00:12:31,196 Speaker 1: I realized this is very serious and I need a 190 00:12:31,276 --> 00:12:35,156 Speaker 1: weapon that is more in line with what's going on 191 00:12:35,236 --> 00:12:38,076 Speaker 1: in my life. And because of the violence became so intense, 192 00:12:38,196 --> 00:12:42,196 Speaker 1: I started carrying a weapon, which was a pistol a gun. 193 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:46,876 Speaker 1: But his main activity for years was this graffiti. That 194 00:12:46,996 --> 00:12:48,996 Speaker 1: was how you showed your devotion to the gang when 195 00:12:48,996 --> 00:12:51,636 Speaker 1: you were a little kid, by painting the gang symbols 196 00:12:51,716 --> 00:12:54,676 Speaker 1: all over the place. On days he was feeling reckless, 197 00:12:54,716 --> 00:12:57,316 Speaker 1: Adam would sneak into the territory of rival gangs and 198 00:12:57,396 --> 00:13:00,956 Speaker 1: paint on their walls. So tell me which you did 199 00:13:01,036 --> 00:13:03,836 Speaker 1: that got you in trouble with the law. Okay, initially 200 00:13:03,836 --> 00:13:08,276 Speaker 1: I got arrested for possession of marijuana at fourteen, vandalism, 201 00:13:08,276 --> 00:13:13,196 Speaker 1: writing on the wall, gang graffiti, assault with the firearm 202 00:13:13,556 --> 00:13:17,916 Speaker 1: on three people, and ultimately I committed a gang related 203 00:13:17,956 --> 00:13:21,276 Speaker 1: murder when I was seventeen years old. Was it against 204 00:13:21,316 --> 00:13:24,436 Speaker 1: the rival gang member? Yes, it was against the rival 205 00:13:24,516 --> 00:13:28,116 Speaker 1: gang member. So some gang members included my older brother. 206 00:13:28,356 --> 00:13:32,636 Speaker 1: We're in front of my house one evening, drinking, talking, 207 00:13:33,076 --> 00:13:38,636 Speaker 1: shooting dice, typical hanging out, and a rival gang came 208 00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:42,396 Speaker 1: and shot at them and hit a few people. My 209 00:13:42,516 --> 00:13:46,516 Speaker 1: grandmother was home, my brother's wife, his child, his newborn 210 00:13:46,596 --> 00:13:52,196 Speaker 1: daughter was home. So me and my rage I went 211 00:13:52,316 --> 00:13:55,836 Speaker 1: looking for those rival gang members and I found one 212 00:13:55,836 --> 00:13:58,956 Speaker 1: of them, and I am responsible for taking his life. 213 00:14:00,836 --> 00:14:03,476 Speaker 1: Adam pled guilty to murder back in nineteen ninety one. 214 00:14:04,516 --> 00:14:07,036 Speaker 1: His sentencing was complicated because he was still a miner. 215 00:14:08,316 --> 00:14:10,516 Speaker 1: He remembers the system trying to figure out if there 216 00:14:10,556 --> 00:14:13,916 Speaker 1: was any hope for him, and one of the psychological evaluations, 217 00:14:14,636 --> 00:14:17,036 Speaker 1: the psychologist asked me, if you could do anything, if 218 00:14:17,036 --> 00:14:19,636 Speaker 1: you could have any impact on the world, what would 219 00:14:19,676 --> 00:14:23,236 Speaker 1: it be. And I remember telling them I would help 220 00:14:23,396 --> 00:14:25,756 Speaker 1: address the ozone later because at the time that was 221 00:14:25,756 --> 00:14:29,796 Speaker 1: a big problem in nineteen ninety one, and it really 222 00:14:29,836 --> 00:14:33,636 Speaker 1: really threw him off because he was expecting something completely different, 223 00:14:33,676 --> 00:14:36,396 Speaker 1: and he told me, like, you know what, we're really different. 224 00:14:36,436 --> 00:14:38,636 Speaker 1: You are the average gang member, but at the same 225 00:14:38,676 --> 00:14:42,636 Speaker 1: time you're not. Adam is still only seventeen years old. 226 00:14:43,636 --> 00:14:45,756 Speaker 1: His lawyers argued that he should be released at the 227 00:14:45,796 --> 00:14:48,796 Speaker 1: age of twenty five and given another chance, but he 228 00:14:48,876 --> 00:14:50,396 Speaker 1: was tried as an adult and the fact that he 229 00:14:50,436 --> 00:14:52,476 Speaker 1: had been in the gang probably didn't help his case. 230 00:14:53,356 --> 00:14:57,356 Speaker 1: He wound up being sentenced to life in prison. Behind bars, 231 00:14:57,396 --> 00:15:00,076 Speaker 1: he remained affiliated with his old gang, but more and 232 00:15:00,156 --> 00:15:03,196 Speaker 1: more as an anthropologist of gang life than as a member. 233 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:06,916 Speaker 1: He learned everything he could about gang culture, gang sociology, 234 00:15:07,076 --> 00:15:11,396 Speaker 1: gang law. He was a model p and in twenty thirteen, 235 00:15:11,876 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 1: after twenty two years, Adam was released. He knew exactly 236 00:15:16,476 --> 00:15:18,396 Speaker 1: what he wanted to do with the rest of his life. 237 00:15:18,916 --> 00:15:21,516 Speaker 1: He wanted to work with kids in gangs to help 238 00:15:21,556 --> 00:15:24,676 Speaker 1: them avoid what had happened to him. He founded a 239 00:15:24,756 --> 00:15:29,156 Speaker 1: nonprofit called the Juvenile Justice Advocates of California to work 240 00:15:29,196 --> 00:15:32,196 Speaker 1: with kids who are already in trouble. He became known 241 00:15:32,236 --> 00:15:34,236 Speaker 1: to social workers, and they'd asked him to speak to 242 00:15:34,316 --> 00:15:40,556 Speaker 1: various groups about his experience. After one of these speeches, 243 00:15:40,596 --> 00:15:42,676 Speaker 1: a member of the audience came up to him. She 244 00:15:42,796 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 1: said she was a public defender. She wanted to tell 245 00:15:46,356 --> 00:15:49,556 Speaker 1: him about a case she'd just been given. A twenty 246 00:15:49,596 --> 00:15:53,916 Speaker 1: three year old San Diego man had been arrested for vandalism. 247 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:56,676 Speaker 1: By sheer coincidence, he was in the same gang that 248 00:15:56,716 --> 00:16:01,556 Speaker 1: Adam had been in. Graffiti was usually a misdemeanor, but 249 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:04,516 Speaker 1: this guy had allegedly painted so many walls and buildings 250 00:16:05,116 --> 00:16:08,116 Speaker 1: that he was being charged with a felony, and that 251 00:16:08,116 --> 00:16:12,156 Speaker 1: meant the possibility the gang enhancement to his sentence. The 252 00:16:12,236 --> 00:16:17,636 Speaker 1: guy's given name was Alejandro Loza, his street name was Youngster. 253 00:16:18,956 --> 00:16:20,756 Speaker 1: They had pictures of him, and she was like, did 254 00:16:20,796 --> 00:16:23,516 Speaker 1: one person do all this gang graffiti? And why would 255 00:16:23,556 --> 00:16:26,276 Speaker 1: you know anything about that? Like that sound like something 256 00:16:26,316 --> 00:16:30,076 Speaker 1: that like I don't know, an art connoisseur would determine, 257 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:32,196 Speaker 1: like this hand is different from this hand. How would 258 00:16:32,236 --> 00:16:34,916 Speaker 1: you How would you know any more than anyone else? 259 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:37,996 Speaker 1: How much of the graffiti he did? Me personally, I 260 00:16:37,996 --> 00:16:42,036 Speaker 1: would know because I was I did gang graffiti, so 261 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:50,156 Speaker 1: I recognize different lettering styles, different artists. Youngster's defense attorney 262 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:53,276 Speaker 1: wanted Adam to testify at trial as an expert at witness. 263 00:16:54,196 --> 00:16:56,036 Speaker 1: She could see that Adam knew as much about San 264 00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:59,836 Speaker 1: Diego's gang graffiti as a person could know. But Adam 265 00:16:59,876 --> 00:17:03,636 Speaker 1: hadn't the fakest idea of himself as an official expert. 266 00:17:04,556 --> 00:17:07,196 Speaker 1: How to sound like an expert, how to persuade others 267 00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:10,156 Speaker 1: that he's an expert. It's prised him that he'd be 268 00:17:10,156 --> 00:17:14,836 Speaker 1: invited into a courtroom except as a defendant. Like, what 269 00:17:14,956 --> 00:17:17,356 Speaker 1: even were the rules about who got to take the stand? 270 00:17:20,716 --> 00:17:23,956 Speaker 1: Adam would learn all that, and we will too after 271 00:17:24,036 --> 00:17:37,716 Speaker 1: a break. There are kind of two distinct phases in 272 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:43,516 Speaker 1: kind of modern American legal history. Emily Shulman is an 273 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:47,676 Speaker 1: expert on expert witnesses. She also lectures at Harvard Law School. 274 00:17:48,076 --> 00:17:50,556 Speaker 1: She's here for a very brief lesson on what qualifies 275 00:17:50,596 --> 00:17:56,956 Speaker 1: as expertise in the court. For a surprisingly long time, 276 00:17:57,956 --> 00:18:02,396 Speaker 1: there was one case, that Supreme Court case that governed 277 00:18:02,796 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 1: evidence law, and that was called the Fry case. And 278 00:18:08,476 --> 00:18:12,156 Speaker 1: so it was experts had to satisfy the Fried test. 279 00:18:12,836 --> 00:18:15,276 Speaker 1: What was the Fried test? You know, boiled down to 280 00:18:15,316 --> 00:18:19,796 Speaker 1: its essence, it really just said that expert witnesses could 281 00:18:19,836 --> 00:18:24,036 Speaker 1: testify if what they were testifying to sort of their 282 00:18:24,156 --> 00:18:30,316 Speaker 1: expertise was generally accepted in the scientific community. So it's 283 00:18:30,396 --> 00:18:33,436 Speaker 1: related to science right from the beginning. That was it, 284 00:18:33,996 --> 00:18:37,556 Speaker 1: That was the yardstick. So I can't be an expert 285 00:18:37,596 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 1: on horoscopes. Not on horoscopes, No, not on horoscopes, but 286 00:18:44,636 --> 00:18:47,556 Speaker 1: you could claim a scientific basis for all sorts of 287 00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:51,796 Speaker 1: other stuff bite marks Arson. All you needed was a 288 00:18:51,836 --> 00:18:54,596 Speaker 1: cluster of people in your field to agree that what 289 00:18:54,596 --> 00:19:00,036 Speaker 1: you were doing with science. Handwriting analysis, for example, little 290 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:07,636 Speaker 1: cottage industries develop and you know, one handwriting experts as yeah, 291 00:19:07,676 --> 00:19:10,916 Speaker 1: there is such a thing as handwriting expertise, and the 292 00:19:10,916 --> 00:19:14,236 Speaker 1: others says, yeah, I agree with you, and you know, 293 00:19:14,636 --> 00:19:17,276 Speaker 1: the next thing, you know, you have a little handwriting 294 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:21,436 Speaker 1: expert kind of community that is doing pretty well for itself. 295 00:19:21,516 --> 00:19:26,796 Speaker 1: And there you have it. Under the cover of science. 296 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:30,116 Speaker 1: A lot of dubious experts got paid to serve as witnesses, 297 00:19:30,596 --> 00:19:34,836 Speaker 1: and in criminal cases, these experts overwhelmingly serve the prosecution. 298 00:19:35,956 --> 00:19:38,596 Speaker 1: That changed in nineteen ninety three when a mess of 299 00:19:38,596 --> 00:19:41,516 Speaker 1: a case based on pseudoscience got appealed all the way 300 00:19:41,516 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court. Ultimately, the Supreme Court said, yeah, 301 00:19:45,196 --> 00:19:48,876 Speaker 1: we're no longer going to just kind of roll over 302 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:52,516 Speaker 1: in the face of scientific consensus, like, we have our 303 00:19:52,556 --> 00:19:57,436 Speaker 1: own standards to uphold. And the kind of new view 304 00:19:57,636 --> 00:20:03,076 Speaker 1: was that experts could testify if their testimony was going 305 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 1: to be helpful to a jury and they were offering 306 00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:14,236 Speaker 1: scientific or technical or some other kind of specialized knowledge 307 00:20:14,956 --> 00:20:18,996 Speaker 1: to the jury. So now the trial judge decides who 308 00:20:19,036 --> 00:20:21,996 Speaker 1: can be an expert. This, of course, just substitutes one 309 00:20:22,076 --> 00:20:26,796 Speaker 1: problem for another. It's still a highly subjective process, but 310 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:30,156 Speaker 1: a telling process because the courtroom is the one place 311 00:20:30,156 --> 00:20:33,876 Speaker 1: in American life that tries to be super precise about experts. 312 00:20:34,796 --> 00:20:37,556 Speaker 1: An expert who lies on the stand can, in theory, 313 00:20:37,636 --> 00:20:40,876 Speaker 1: go to jail. And yet even now the justice system 314 00:20:41,076 --> 00:20:47,956 Speaker 1: has trouble figuring out some very basic things about experts. Okay, everyone, 315 00:20:48,316 --> 00:20:54,076 Speaker 1: welcome to the first substantive part of the independent Fence 316 00:20:54,116 --> 00:20:58,836 Speaker 1: at Gain Expert College at Loyal Law School. Sean Kennedy 317 00:20:58,916 --> 00:21:02,156 Speaker 1: is a former public defender now an associate professor of 318 00:21:02,236 --> 00:21:05,996 Speaker 1: law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. This is 319 00:21:06,076 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 1: going to be expert witness, one on one, and I'm 320 00:21:10,276 --> 00:21:13,636 Speaker 1: going to tell you how and why I believe every 321 00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:17,436 Speaker 1: single one of you is ready right now to day 322 00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:22,476 Speaker 1: to qualify as a forensic gang expert in a state 323 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:26,756 Speaker 1: and federal courts. In California, Sean's in a zoom box, 324 00:21:27,676 --> 00:21:30,836 Speaker 1: and in a dozen other zoom boxes, a dozen former 325 00:21:30,876 --> 00:21:35,556 Speaker 1: gang members watch Sean talk. He starts by explaining the problem, 326 00:21:36,236 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: which they all more than understand. The cops who serve 327 00:21:39,796 --> 00:21:42,916 Speaker 1: as gang experts often don't know much and never know 328 00:21:42,996 --> 00:21:46,436 Speaker 1: as much as they claim to know. Peak absurdity came 329 00:21:46,476 --> 00:21:49,676 Speaker 1: back in two thousand and sixteen in a case involving 330 00:21:49,676 --> 00:21:53,636 Speaker 1: a man named Sanchez and led to what got called 331 00:21:54,076 --> 00:21:59,796 Speaker 1: the Sanchez problem. And the Sanchez problem is a police 332 00:21:59,836 --> 00:22:03,796 Speaker 1: gang expert case where the cop went up there and 333 00:22:03,836 --> 00:22:07,876 Speaker 1: testified everything in this trial is all about the defendant 334 00:22:07,876 --> 00:22:10,916 Speaker 1: did everything because it was for the benefit of the 335 00:22:10,956 --> 00:22:15,316 Speaker 1: street game. But the cop had no interaction with the case. 336 00:22:16,196 --> 00:22:22,116 Speaker 1: He didn't know the defendant. He didn't do any investigation, 337 00:22:22,356 --> 00:22:25,676 Speaker 1: didn't do any preparation for his testimony. He just got 338 00:22:25,756 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 1: up there and repeated what was on the police report 339 00:22:28,676 --> 00:22:33,276 Speaker 1: and said, I'm an expert. After Sanchez, the California Supreme 340 00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:35,436 Speaker 1: Court ruled that anyone who wanted to be a gang 341 00:22:35,476 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 1: expert had to know something about the case, about the defendant, 342 00:22:40,396 --> 00:22:44,156 Speaker 1: or at least about gangs. Hence Seawan Kennedy's training class. 343 00:22:44,556 --> 00:22:49,236 Speaker 1: So we need some new experts. You are those experts. 344 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:51,996 Speaker 1: Shawn's held a bunch of these classes. This one's online 345 00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:54,996 Speaker 1: and the students are all women. Shan lays out the 346 00:22:55,036 --> 00:22:58,476 Speaker 1: stakes and then leads them into the meat of the course, 347 00:22:59,036 --> 00:23:03,596 Speaker 1: a role playing game. So let's try it. Do I 348 00:23:03,756 --> 00:23:10,356 Speaker 1: have anyone of our experts, buddy experts, who wants to 349 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:14,436 Speaker 1: qualify the way it would be done in court. Just 350 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:19,756 Speaker 1: just raise your hand, qualify, submit your credentials as an expert. 351 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:27,716 Speaker 1: There aren't any hands. I'm seeing some smiles, Jessica, you're ready. 352 00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:31,196 Speaker 1: Let's give it a shot. All right, So you're on 353 00:23:31,236 --> 00:23:36,396 Speaker 1: the stand, you have been called, you have stated your name, 354 00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:40,236 Speaker 1: and you've been sworn in, and so I'm going to 355 00:23:40,356 --> 00:23:44,116 Speaker 1: qualify you as an expert. Okay, could you tell us 356 00:23:44,116 --> 00:23:49,316 Speaker 1: about your education? My education was I received a GD 357 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:54,316 Speaker 1: and I'm currently a college student. And I was I 358 00:23:54,356 --> 00:24:00,036 Speaker 1: grew up in a gang infested neighborhood. Do you have 359 00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:09,316 Speaker 1: any personal experience with gang involvement? Yes, I do. UM 360 00:24:10,876 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 1: joined a gang and at seventeen I was arrested. What gang? 361 00:24:18,556 --> 00:24:25,356 Speaker 1: What gang? I'm sorry, Um, do we have to say this. 362 00:24:26,316 --> 00:24:33,156 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we're in court, that's the question. Sean's just 363 00:24:33,236 --> 00:24:35,916 Speaker 1: being a lawyer. But their response is the opposite of 364 00:24:35,916 --> 00:24:37,996 Speaker 1: the guy who taught people to type with their toes. 365 00:24:39,116 --> 00:24:42,836 Speaker 1: They're not full of conviction or enthusiasm, and that makes sense. 366 00:24:43,476 --> 00:24:46,596 Speaker 1: To testify is to violate the basic codes of the street. 367 00:24:47,716 --> 00:24:53,836 Speaker 1: How did it feel, Jessica, I'm not comfortable with, you know, 368 00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:59,476 Speaker 1: speaking to anybody who's in a position to to ask 369 00:24:59,516 --> 00:25:04,876 Speaker 1: me a question like that's very uncomfortable. UM. I felt 370 00:25:05,516 --> 00:25:08,796 Speaker 1: like I sensed you as as an attorney, and I 371 00:25:08,796 --> 00:25:12,276 Speaker 1: don't I mean no disrespect to you shot, but from 372 00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:16,716 Speaker 1: a white male in a suit, it just feels like 373 00:25:16,796 --> 00:25:25,636 Speaker 1: it's coming led up or or somebody in authority figure. Yes, 374 00:25:26,236 --> 00:25:29,196 Speaker 1: no disrespect taken. But when you were there, you were 375 00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:32,796 Speaker 1: feeling the heat. And I'm your lawyer, I'm your friend, 376 00:25:33,996 --> 00:25:38,196 Speaker 1: and I we're just talking about you know, your qualifications. 377 00:25:38,276 --> 00:25:40,836 Speaker 1: We haven't even got into the substance of the matter, 378 00:25:41,396 --> 00:25:44,596 Speaker 1: and you're feeling the heat. What's it going to feel 379 00:25:44,636 --> 00:25:46,996 Speaker 1: like when the DA stands up and tries to make 380 00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:53,516 Speaker 1: fun of you on cross examination? It's not rhetorical Sean's 381 00:25:53,556 --> 00:25:56,556 Speaker 1: just getting a lot of blank stares here. I want 382 00:25:56,596 --> 00:25:59,196 Speaker 1: you to understand this, Professor Kennedy. It's just that this 383 00:25:59,276 --> 00:26:02,396 Speaker 1: is the first time that we're on this side. A 384 00:26:02,396 --> 00:26:05,156 Speaker 1: lot of times, everything that a person has ever said 385 00:26:05,196 --> 00:26:09,396 Speaker 1: in their life, especially being black or Latino, have allus 386 00:26:09,476 --> 00:26:12,956 Speaker 1: been used as a weapon against us. So I don't 387 00:26:12,996 --> 00:26:14,876 Speaker 1: want you when you hear Dominique or you can hear 388 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:17,436 Speaker 1: Jessica and they're kind of hesitant. It's not that they 389 00:26:17,436 --> 00:26:19,476 Speaker 1: don't trust you, because they wouldn't even be in this 390 00:26:19,556 --> 00:26:21,996 Speaker 1: process if they didn't trust us in the process. But 391 00:26:22,116 --> 00:26:25,316 Speaker 1: it's just, you know, working through these things, working through 392 00:26:25,356 --> 00:26:32,716 Speaker 1: these things, learning how to articulate these things. The Sanchez 393 00:26:32,836 --> 00:26:36,516 Speaker 1: problem was about cops with no knowledge saying that they knew. 394 00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:40,716 Speaker 1: This class is just the reverse people who actually know 395 00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:43,356 Speaker 1: a lot and can't get it across because it's not 396 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:46,396 Speaker 1: just who knows, it's who's willing to say that they know. 397 00:26:47,436 --> 00:26:49,356 Speaker 1: And it's not easy to say that you know when 398 00:26:49,356 --> 00:26:52,276 Speaker 1: for your whole life you've been told not to say anything. 399 00:26:52,836 --> 00:26:55,916 Speaker 1: Plus no one in power ever really thought you were 400 00:26:55,956 --> 00:26:59,956 Speaker 1: worth asking. Can you please tell the court now what 401 00:26:59,996 --> 00:27:05,556 Speaker 1: that experience is? My experiences I'm an inactive gang member. 402 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:15,676 Speaker 1: I was involved with Uh the um oh man, the 403 00:27:17,116 --> 00:27:20,036 Speaker 1: it's kind of you get a little nervous. I'm sorry, Um, 404 00:27:20,316 --> 00:27:24,236 Speaker 1: don't break, don't break character. We're in court. Just say 405 00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:31,276 Speaker 1: how to feel. Oh my gosh, for like trial, you 406 00:27:31,356 --> 00:27:34,836 Speaker 1: are on trial. You are on trial. Right, you're an expert. Okay. 407 00:27:35,836 --> 00:27:38,636 Speaker 1: Is there a way we can do more um mock 408 00:27:38,716 --> 00:27:44,196 Speaker 1: hearings like this because it was a little intimidating. Yeah, um. 409 00:27:44,196 --> 00:27:46,116 Speaker 1: And I don't want to I don't want to feel 410 00:27:46,156 --> 00:27:49,036 Speaker 1: like that, Like, I want to be able to articulate 411 00:27:49,076 --> 00:27:52,516 Speaker 1: myself in a professional manner. I want to be able 412 00:27:52,516 --> 00:27:55,036 Speaker 1: to address that in a way to where it sounds 413 00:27:55,076 --> 00:28:01,036 Speaker 1: like I'm educated, where it sounds like I'm educated. She's 414 00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:04,876 Speaker 1: not worried about what she knows. She's worried about how 415 00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:07,836 Speaker 1: she seems to others. I thought, coming in, I mean 416 00:28:07,916 --> 00:28:10,116 Speaker 1: just me, I thought, come in, they would know that 417 00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:13,916 Speaker 1: they were experts. Marissa Harris works with Sean Kennedy at 418 00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:18,036 Speaker 1: Loyola's Gang Expert College. It took about a full class 419 00:28:18,116 --> 00:28:19,716 Speaker 1: until we got to the end of the first class 420 00:28:19,756 --> 00:28:22,196 Speaker 1: for them to start typing in the chat box on 421 00:28:22,316 --> 00:28:24,996 Speaker 1: Zoom or raising their hands to say, you know what, 422 00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:27,596 Speaker 1: I could do this. I'm definitely an expert. I know 423 00:28:27,876 --> 00:28:31,596 Speaker 1: everything you're talking about. I remember all of this. The 424 00:28:31,676 --> 00:28:35,156 Speaker 1: people who have the lived experience should be the experts. 425 00:28:35,156 --> 00:28:38,436 Speaker 1: They are the experts just there. You know, existence makes 426 00:28:38,476 --> 00:28:41,436 Speaker 1: them experts, and so all they really need is some 427 00:28:41,556 --> 00:28:46,156 Speaker 1: legal tools and you know, polishing, and they're the ones 428 00:28:46,196 --> 00:28:51,796 Speaker 1: who should be in those chairs. It's all new. This training. 429 00:28:52,676 --> 00:28:57,916 Speaker 1: People talk about structural racism. Here's a byproduct, structural expertise ism. 430 00:28:59,036 --> 00:29:01,676 Speaker 1: It'll take months before any of these students get to 431 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:05,316 Speaker 1: a witness stand as an expert. But before this kind 432 00:29:05,316 --> 00:29:07,956 Speaker 1: of training even existed, a few people were taking the 433 00:29:08,036 --> 00:29:28,636 Speaker 1: stand anyway, and one of them was Adam Mortara. Against 434 00:29:28,676 --> 00:29:41,876 Speaker 1: the rules. Will be right back. Let's go back to 435 00:29:41,876 --> 00:29:46,156 Speaker 1: twenty and eighteen. A public defender had asked Adam Mortara 436 00:29:46,236 --> 00:29:49,156 Speaker 1: to testify as a gang expert in the trial of 437 00:29:49,196 --> 00:29:55,836 Speaker 1: Alejandra Loza aka Youngster. Adam really studied Youngster's work and 438 00:29:55,956 --> 00:29:59,756 Speaker 1: his case file. The guy was not exactly a model citizen. 439 00:30:00,516 --> 00:30:04,036 Speaker 1: He'd beaten someone up, he'd been arrested before, he had 440 00:30:04,036 --> 00:30:09,236 Speaker 1: a drug problem. But his graffiti, to Adam's eye, the 441 00:30:09,276 --> 00:30:14,436 Speaker 1: graffiti was really good. The tag that Youngster used though 442 00:30:15,116 --> 00:30:18,196 Speaker 1: we looked pretty common. Adam kept pointing it out to 443 00:30:18,236 --> 00:30:21,236 Speaker 1: me on our FaceTime tour. There it is right there, 444 00:30:21,396 --> 00:30:26,156 Speaker 1: there's see now there's a version of youngster. You see 445 00:30:26,156 --> 00:30:29,196 Speaker 1: the difference. There's a thirty eight under that, or it's 446 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:32,716 Speaker 1: not the same youngster because it's a different branch. Right, 447 00:30:32,836 --> 00:30:36,556 Speaker 1: Youngster was from Gamma, Right, this guy is youngs and 448 00:30:36,596 --> 00:30:41,876 Speaker 1: he's from thirty eight. The police had caught Alejandroloza tagging 449 00:30:42,276 --> 00:30:45,276 Speaker 1: red handed, but they'd accused him of a lot more 450 00:30:45,316 --> 00:30:48,636 Speaker 1: than they'd caught him doing. And when Adam compared the 451 00:30:48,676 --> 00:30:51,956 Speaker 1: graffiti youngster was known to have done with the graffiti 452 00:30:51,956 --> 00:30:55,436 Speaker 1: he was just suspected of having done, he noticed some differences. 453 00:30:56,556 --> 00:30:58,716 Speaker 1: I mean, there was just a bunch of different ways 454 00:30:58,756 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 1: of the name young or youngster or youngs. And what 455 00:31:03,396 --> 00:31:06,556 Speaker 1: I was, what I believed was that it was really 456 00:31:06,596 --> 00:31:09,956 Speaker 1: more than one youngster or youngs, that it was baby too, 457 00:31:10,676 --> 00:31:13,116 Speaker 1: and what was older and what was younger. If I 458 00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:15,796 Speaker 1: came in here with a cop and said explain all 459 00:31:15,796 --> 00:31:18,916 Speaker 1: this to me, how well you think they do? They 460 00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:22,396 Speaker 1: do pretty well? You think they do pretty well, They're 461 00:31:22,436 --> 00:31:27,516 Speaker 1: not always they can decipher this stuff. They could, Yeah, 462 00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:31,356 Speaker 1: they could, because it's pretty it's pretty basics. Nothing that 463 00:31:31,436 --> 00:31:35,076 Speaker 1: I just sold you is complex at all. No, you're right, 464 00:31:35,316 --> 00:31:39,436 Speaker 1: but but it means making some distinctions that um that 465 00:31:39,556 --> 00:31:42,916 Speaker 1: people don't normally make. Yes, and it means actually, it 466 00:31:43,036 --> 00:31:45,916 Speaker 1: means actually looking at it. It's funny because this is 467 00:31:45,996 --> 00:31:50,156 Speaker 1: sort of background noise in American life that this this 468 00:31:50,236 --> 00:31:53,796 Speaker 1: stuff is everywhere, and I'm just I'm kind of blind 469 00:31:53,796 --> 00:31:56,476 Speaker 1: to it unless it's something that's just strikingly beautiful. I 470 00:31:56,556 --> 00:31:59,236 Speaker 1: just think I was someone someone to face that highway. 471 00:31:59,276 --> 00:32:01,276 Speaker 1: But that's not where that person is thinking. That person 472 00:32:01,396 --> 00:32:06,676 Speaker 1: is thinking, I've actually communicated something pretty specific here, and 473 00:32:06,836 --> 00:32:08,756 Speaker 1: some of its gang related and some of it's not. 474 00:32:09,276 --> 00:32:11,636 Speaker 1: Some of it is by who it says it's by, 475 00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:15,116 Speaker 1: and some of it's by some imitator. You can really 476 00:32:15,156 --> 00:32:17,596 Speaker 1: see that, and you could tell some of the distinctions 477 00:32:17,956 --> 00:32:22,916 Speaker 1: because you're actually interested. Now, law enforcement they see exactly 478 00:32:22,916 --> 00:32:25,596 Speaker 1: what you see. They see the distinctions, but they don't 479 00:32:25,636 --> 00:32:28,676 Speaker 1: say it's possible that it's more than one person. We're 480 00:32:28,716 --> 00:32:30,916 Speaker 1: not going to say that. Let's just say it's this 481 00:32:31,036 --> 00:32:34,516 Speaker 1: one person, so we could give him the felonine there 482 00:32:34,596 --> 00:32:37,316 Speaker 1: was a bunch of graffiti signed Youngs or Youngster, but 483 00:32:37,396 --> 00:32:41,036 Speaker 1: the script was different, and the changing names that was 484 00:32:41,076 --> 00:32:45,996 Speaker 1: also weird. Adam knew that graffiti artists seldom changed their signatures. 485 00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:48,436 Speaker 1: They wanted people to know exactly who had painted it. 486 00:32:48,876 --> 00:32:51,836 Speaker 1: He also knew that the best gang graffiti artists always 487 00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:55,876 Speaker 1: spawned imitators, and one way to acknowledge the master was 488 00:32:55,916 --> 00:32:59,436 Speaker 1: to adopt a similar name. There was also a more 489 00:32:59,476 --> 00:33:03,796 Speaker 1: subtle question of Youngster's motives, which prosecutors didn't even care 490 00:33:03,836 --> 00:33:08,796 Speaker 1: to ask. Why had Alejandro Loza painted at all? It 491 00:33:08,876 --> 00:33:12,316 Speaker 1: was gang graffiti? Even his defense lawyer admitted that much. 492 00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:16,196 Speaker 1: But to Adam, graffiti wasn't just graffiti. Let's go down 493 00:33:16,236 --> 00:33:18,036 Speaker 1: here so you can so I'll show you because I 494 00:33:18,076 --> 00:33:20,836 Speaker 1: have a question about your own at tagging. Did you 495 00:33:20,836 --> 00:33:22,196 Speaker 1: think of it as art? Did you think of it 496 00:33:22,196 --> 00:33:28,636 Speaker 1: as something else? I thought of it as art. The 497 00:33:28,676 --> 00:33:32,076 Speaker 1: world saw Youngster's work as gang graffiti, and that was that. 498 00:33:33,356 --> 00:33:36,596 Speaker 1: But Youngster's art career was more interesting. He had a 499 00:33:36,636 --> 00:33:42,036 Speaker 1: side hustle drawing people's portraits. He claimed he had no imagination, 500 00:33:42,436 --> 00:33:45,316 Speaker 1: but he could capture perfectly in paint anything you put 501 00:33:45,356 --> 00:33:47,916 Speaker 1: in front of him, right down to the last strand 502 00:33:47,916 --> 00:33:51,316 Speaker 1: of hair. He reminded Adam just a little bit of 503 00:33:51,316 --> 00:34:02,836 Speaker 1: his younger self. Okay, initially, obviously I was nervous, and 504 00:34:02,876 --> 00:34:04,756 Speaker 1: you'd only been there once before, and that was when 505 00:34:04,796 --> 00:34:08,196 Speaker 1: they put you in jail. Adam had never really thought 506 00:34:08,196 --> 00:34:12,276 Speaker 1: of himself as an expert on anything, except perhaps on injustice, 507 00:34:12,996 --> 00:34:15,276 Speaker 1: which had been woven into his existence since he was 508 00:34:15,316 --> 00:34:18,156 Speaker 1: a little kid. I was fourteen years old when I 509 00:34:18,196 --> 00:34:23,036 Speaker 1: first got arrested, and I wasn't treated like a child. 510 00:34:23,356 --> 00:34:26,036 Speaker 1: I was treated like a criminal, and I had five 511 00:34:26,076 --> 00:34:28,556 Speaker 1: dollars worth of marijuana. I was treated like I mean, 512 00:34:28,596 --> 00:34:30,396 Speaker 1: I was handcuffed, I was put in a police car, 513 00:34:30,436 --> 00:34:33,476 Speaker 1: I was taking a jail. I was booked, and my 514 00:34:33,556 --> 00:34:36,436 Speaker 1: parents had to pick me up with my grandmother. You 515 00:34:36,476 --> 00:34:39,356 Speaker 1: think about going to the courtroom, that's your memory. Yeah, 516 00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:42,556 Speaker 1: So my memory is that courts have always been punitive. 517 00:34:43,156 --> 00:34:46,956 Speaker 1: They've never been about any type of rehabilitation or justice 518 00:34:46,996 --> 00:34:52,516 Speaker 1: or getting to the truth. It's always been punitive. But 519 00:34:52,636 --> 00:34:55,076 Speaker 1: now he had to go to court to testify as 520 00:34:55,116 --> 00:34:59,356 Speaker 1: an expert witness. I have no idea what to expect. Honestly, 521 00:34:59,636 --> 00:35:02,916 Speaker 1: what do you decide to wear? I wore slacks, and 522 00:35:02,996 --> 00:35:06,236 Speaker 1: I wore a collared, short sleeved shirt, which I do 523 00:35:06,356 --> 00:35:10,116 Speaker 1: not recommend doing and I will not do again. Why's 524 00:35:10,116 --> 00:35:12,756 Speaker 1: that because it's it's appropriate to wear a suit and 525 00:35:12,756 --> 00:35:16,756 Speaker 1: tying the courtroom, right, And I realized that now and 526 00:35:16,796 --> 00:35:19,076 Speaker 1: that's how I dressed now. But at the time I 527 00:35:19,236 --> 00:35:22,636 Speaker 1: just wore slacks in a collared shirt. He's wearing the 528 00:35:22,636 --> 00:35:27,276 Speaker 1: wrong clothes. He's nervous, and they aren't taking him seriously. 529 00:35:27,996 --> 00:35:30,316 Speaker 1: You can see this in the court transcripts. When the 530 00:35:30,396 --> 00:35:32,916 Speaker 1: judge tells the prosecutor that he's going to allow Adam 531 00:35:32,956 --> 00:35:37,116 Speaker 1: to testify. The prosecutor replies, he's going to admit to 532 00:35:37,156 --> 00:35:39,556 Speaker 1: being a murderer. And I'm not sure anything gets more 533 00:35:39,596 --> 00:35:42,396 Speaker 1: prejudicial than that. He was asking me if I was 534 00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:45,156 Speaker 1: if I got paid to be there, and initially I 535 00:35:45,196 --> 00:35:47,836 Speaker 1: was like, how is that relevant? And I know what 536 00:35:47,916 --> 00:35:52,756 Speaker 1: he's doing, but I felt uncomfortable talking about getting paid 537 00:35:52,836 --> 00:35:56,156 Speaker 1: to be there, Like if I was doing someone a 538 00:35:56,196 --> 00:35:58,676 Speaker 1: favor because they gave me money and I was not 539 00:35:58,756 --> 00:36:02,876 Speaker 1: there to provide a service, And what would you say now? Now, 540 00:36:02,916 --> 00:36:07,836 Speaker 1: I would say, I'm here as a professional as well 541 00:36:07,876 --> 00:36:11,556 Speaker 1: as everyone else in his court. So I'm assuming everyone 542 00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:17,596 Speaker 1: here is getting paid. To day, Adam understands that. Now, hell, 543 00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:21,556 Speaker 1: the prosecutor got paid. But at Youngster's trial, Adam didn't 544 00:36:21,596 --> 00:36:23,596 Speaker 1: think to point any of that out, and it put 545 00:36:23,676 --> 00:36:26,636 Speaker 1: him back on his heels. The money he had been 546 00:36:26,636 --> 00:36:29,956 Speaker 1: paid just hung in the air as an accusation. When 547 00:36:30,036 --> 00:36:32,476 Speaker 1: you read the transcript from the trial, you're struck by 548 00:36:32,476 --> 00:36:36,916 Speaker 1: a couple of other things. One is Adam's reticence. He 549 00:36:36,956 --> 00:36:40,516 Speaker 1: doesn't insist on his expertise. He's just offering an opinion, 550 00:36:40,636 --> 00:36:43,236 Speaker 1: the opinion of a convicted murderer who is being paid. 551 00:36:44,516 --> 00:36:46,956 Speaker 1: The other thing is the confidence of the cop who 552 00:36:47,036 --> 00:36:50,836 Speaker 1: testifies for the prosecution. The cop is totally sure that 553 00:36:50,916 --> 00:36:54,756 Speaker 1: Youngster has painted everything he's accused of painting. No, I 554 00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:56,276 Speaker 1: didn't think that they were going to let him go, 555 00:36:57,356 --> 00:37:00,596 Speaker 1: even though you thought he was innocent, not of all 556 00:37:00,596 --> 00:37:03,156 Speaker 1: of it, but of some of it. What mattered was 557 00:37:03,356 --> 00:37:08,196 Speaker 1: the prosecution was going hard to get maximum conviction from 558 00:37:08,236 --> 00:37:11,476 Speaker 1: maximum setting, and I knew that what was happening, And 559 00:37:11,516 --> 00:37:15,396 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened. In the end, the jury convicted 560 00:37:15,396 --> 00:37:21,116 Speaker 1: Alejandroloza Youngster. The prosecution call for a gang enhanced sentence, 561 00:37:21,916 --> 00:37:24,516 Speaker 1: and the judge sent him to prison for six years 562 00:37:24,996 --> 00:37:29,316 Speaker 1: for graffiti, some of which was quite likely applied by copycats. 563 00:37:29,876 --> 00:37:34,596 Speaker 1: The criminal justice system is designed that poor people and minorities, 564 00:37:34,716 --> 00:37:38,676 Speaker 1: mainly blacks and Latinos, go through the system and end 565 00:37:38,756 --> 00:37:42,436 Speaker 1: up in prison or jail. Injustice is not the case. 566 00:37:42,876 --> 00:37:48,956 Speaker 1: No one's interested in justice, sadly. So here's a theory. 567 00:37:50,036 --> 00:37:53,316 Speaker 1: The greater the inequality in any society, the more perverse 568 00:37:53,436 --> 00:37:58,476 Speaker 1: the use of experts will be, because actual knowledge, actual 569 00:37:58,596 --> 00:38:03,516 Speaker 1: expertise threatens those on the happy end of the inequality. 570 00:38:04,356 --> 00:38:06,996 Speaker 1: The truth can be a weapon for anyone, so you 571 00:38:07,076 --> 00:38:35,156 Speaker 1: can't just let anyone have it. Against the Rules is 572 00:38:35,196 --> 00:38:37,916 Speaker 1: written and hosted by me Michael Lewis and produced by 573 00:38:37,956 --> 00:38:42,316 Speaker 1: Catherine Gerardo and Lydia Jean Cott. Julia Barton is our editor, 574 00:38:42,396 --> 00:38:45,836 Speaker 1: with additional editing by Audrey Dilling. Beth Johnson is our 575 00:38:45,876 --> 00:38:51,076 Speaker 1: fact checker, and mil o'bell executive produces. Our music is 576 00:38:51,116 --> 00:38:54,996 Speaker 1: created by John Evans and Matthias Bossi of Stellwagen Stempanette. 577 00:38:55,796 --> 00:38:59,876 Speaker 1: We record our show at Berkeley Advanced Media Studios, expertly 578 00:38:59,916 --> 00:39:05,356 Speaker 1: helmed by Tofa Ruth. Thanks also to Jacob Weisberg. Heather Fame, 579 00:39:05,996 --> 00:39:12,676 Speaker 1: John Schnares, Carl mcgliori, Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor, 580 00:39:13,396 --> 00:39:21,796 Speaker 1: Morgan Rattner, Nicole Morano, Royston Besserve, Daniella Lakhan, Mary Beth Smith, 581 00:39:22,636 --> 00:39:27,276 Speaker 1: Jason Gambrel, and a special thanks to Jason Roskowski and 582 00:39:27,396 --> 00:39:32,156 Speaker 1: Julia Cott. Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. 583 00:39:32,436 --> 00:39:35,236 Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, 584 00:39:35,276 --> 00:39:39,476 Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast 585 00:39:39,516 --> 00:39:43,836 Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four 586 00:39:43,876 --> 00:39:47,276 Speaker 1: dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Look for Pushkin 587 00:39:47,316 --> 00:39:52,076 Speaker 1: Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. Keep in touch, sign up 588 00:39:52,076 --> 00:39:55,436 Speaker 1: for Pushkin's newsletter at pushkin dot fm, or follow at 589 00:39:55,476 --> 00:40:00,836 Speaker 1: pushkin pods. Define more Pushkin podcasts. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, 590 00:40:01,076 --> 00:40:11,156 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,