WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 245 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:03.120 Also media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.760 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.719 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:24.520 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.800 Welcome to acodop and here a podcast where sometimes the 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:35.520 here is the world's largest democracy, and that I think 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:38.239 I'm actually not sure how many Americans are aware of it. 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:42.160 This is, in fact India a very basic democracies around 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:42.520 the world. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:44.600 I mean, if you're calling either to the US or 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.240 India the world's largest democracy, you've got to put an asterisk. 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:59.280 There. We'll get to that land of asterisks, Age of asterisks. Yeah, 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:01.440 with you to talk about the age of asterisks and 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.440 maybe how to get out of it is Robert Evans. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:06.680 astressing on that too. 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:07.039 Why not? 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:11.759 Oh boy? And I'm mea long a guess asterisk there too. Sure, 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.040 I don't know, I got nothing, I got nothing. Well, 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:15.160 what are we talking about today? 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:15.440 Maya. 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:17.960 We are talking about the fact that a couple of 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.959 weeks ago in India, protesters managed to accomplish something that 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:26.560 is unprecedented in the twelve year reign of Indian Prime 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.320 Minister and enemy of the show, the butcher a Gujarat 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:36.000 himself one Prime Minister Modi Narindra Modi, thank you very much. Yep, 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:37.360 hate him Jesus Christ. 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:37.720 Yeah. 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.520 Yeah, the entire time he has been in power, no 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.160 one has successfully been able to manage to force him 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.280 to make a countet member resign. No, and protesters just 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:48.720 did this. 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:50.400 Yeah, this is the first. 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:52.960 It's not the first, because there was the most recent 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.040 set of elections didn't go great for him. But this 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.760 is like the biggest break in his armor we've seen 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.760 since the Modi regis kind of clanked into place. 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:06.560 Yeah, And to understand sort of what that means, we 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.600 need to talk a bit about why Robert was like, yeah, asterisk, 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.760 that's a democracy on both this in the US, Yeah, 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.560 which is that? So Modi's ruling party is the BJP, 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.680 and I would classify the BJP as the world's largest 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.639 fascist party. It has a horrifying one hundred and forty 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:26.079 million members. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:27.160 Jesus Age Christ. 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:29.640 Yeah, not good, very bad. 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:31.440 Yeah. 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.560 Yeah, and it's also like not the only ultra right 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.600 wing Hindi nationalist party in India. There are also others. 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.200 So yeah, great, great things happening here. 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.720 Yeah, this is why you've had ethnic cleansings against Muslims 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.320 and other non Hindu groups and chunks of India over 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:47.200 the Modi years. 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.360 Yeah. So they've been in power like effectively uncontested. I mean, 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.160 they didn't do great and last lections, but they held 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:55.440 on to power and they've been in power for twelve 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.800 years now, during which they have both transformed Indian politics 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.000 and also just continue to get more and more right wing. 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:02.720 Yep. 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.960 There's something I think is worth mentioning with the BJP, 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.480 which is that it's not like most political parties, even 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.480 fascist ones, in that it's not like it's a political 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.720 party that like developed a paramilitary right. The VJP was 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.639 developed as the political wing of, you know, a very 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.280 very far right, anti Muslim like Hindu nationalist parabilitary group 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.840 called the RSS, which was responsible for a whole bunch 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:32.240 of absolutely hideous crimes even before the BJP took power 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.120 or even existed. So again, like this is a ruling 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.080 party that is like the political wing of a parabilitary 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.280 not the other way around. And it's been running India 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.840 for twelve years. And as Robert sort of mentioned before, 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:48.800 the BJP has faced some challenges to their power. They've 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.640 also faced large scale protest movements before, most notably sort 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.360 of the Farmer's protests in twenty twenty and then twenty 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.760 twenty four, which were about attempts to implement right wing 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.680 market reforms to India's like agricultural markets. But they've successfully 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.440 been able to maintain this policy of just refusing to 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.800 dismiss government ministers in the face of protests until now. 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:13.760 So what has actually been happening. Yeah, so these protests 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.200 have been rallying under the banner of I guess kind 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:19.440 of a meme organization or meme. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:24.440 Yeah, it started as a as a joke, right, yeah, yeah, 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:28.119 it's it's called the Cockroach johnta party which is named 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:29.880 after these comments. 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.320 They were made by India's Chief Justice of like the 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:38.240 Indian Supreme Court, calling young unemployed people quote parasites and cockroaches. 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:40.360 It's a little bit of a reversal of like the 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.920 Hillary Clinton deplorables comment where this this person in politics 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.560 uses a derogatory nickname to refer to a group of 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:48.359 people he's opposed to, and they kind of take it 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:49.359 on as a badge of honor. 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.880 Yeah, and because it's fascist, right right, it's also yeah fascist, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:58.000 the Chief Justice Supreme Court is calling them cockroaches. Jesus Christ. Yeah, 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.480 this party is like obviously a joke. It's like CJP, 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:04.400 like cockroach instead of BJP, et cetera, et cetera. That 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.000 the main focus of these protests are a series of 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:14.200 scandals in India's education system, and it feels kind of 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.320 redundant to say, like, oh, yeah, like what kind of 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.840 education do you get? Has a huge amount of you know, 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.320 sort of determinants in like what your life turns out 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.440 to be and what your economic conditions turns out to 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.919 be in a sort of more intense version of like 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.599 the way that American sanitized testing works. But there are 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:33.480 a bunch of these sanitized tests that you take that 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.320 can determine a whole bunch about what your future is 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.520 going to be. And I think mostly obviously there have 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:41.840 been a couple of big scandals recently, but the most 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.920 famous one is called the neat scandal. NEAT and EATS 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.960 is basically it's India's like pre med exam. Basically. 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.680 Yeah, it's this huge exam that everyone who wants to 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.080 go into pre med has to take and get a 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.200 certain grade on, as I understand it, basically, Yeah, So 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.840 it's one of these especially for kids like aren't rich. 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.120 It's like a massive barrier that you have to get 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:06.040 past if you want to like have a better life. 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:10.560 Basically. Yeah, And these tests, and specifically the MET in particular. 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:12.120 I mean, this is just the one if you want 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.919 to become a doctor. But like you know, there's a 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:16.840 huge number of people taking these tests. I'm going to 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.800 quote from al Dazeira, nearly two point three million test 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.640 takers across India and at examination centers in Doa, Dubai, 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.279 Singapore and Kampman Dou appeared for the NEAT this year 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.760 on May third, battling out for less than one hundred 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:36.479 and thirty thousand spots in medical colleges. So a very 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.440 small percentage of the of these of these two point 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.160 three million people who are taking this test can even 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:44.080 possibly get a score good enough to get them into 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.520 a very small number of spots in these medical colleges 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.200 and then it turns out for this year's test that 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.039 the answers to the test had been leaked aheat of 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:57.360 time and were being like sold on a telegram channels. Yeah, 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.640 and this turns into a massive scandal and the government 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.440 for us the students to take the test again, and 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:09.000 this is a complete disaster. Eleven students died by suicide 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:09.800 as result of it. 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.440 Good God, it's really. 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:15.440 Bad because it's like a mix of everything you've heard about. 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.920 Particularly in Southeast Asia. You've got a lot of like 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.560 pressure as a kid to do well in exams like 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.800 this because there's not both for cultural leases and because 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.800 there's not other ways legally to like get those jobs 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.200 if your family is not rich. And also the people 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:32.760 whose families are rich, like often can pay to get 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:34.400 the answers ahead of time, which is what the leak 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:36.320 of this shows, right, Like the fact that it leaks 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.920 out is because people's rich kids are getting these yeah. Well, 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:41.640 and and also like if you're rich enough, you can 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:43.520 send your kid to like a private college right right, 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.440 that too, you know, but if you're a working class kids, 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.720 you cannot afford one of these one of these private universities. Yeah, 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.080 and so your only way in is through these tests exactly. 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.280 And these tests are also you know, they're like they're 0:07:56.320 --> 0:08:00.600 like a huge sort of extraction engine inside of the 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.240 Indian economy where like, you know, one of the things 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.400 that Alda Zerra talks about is the story of this 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:08.640 twenty one year old kid who is one of the 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.640 people who died by suicide, who in order to get 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.360 through these tests, you have to go through these like 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:20.240 massive extremely expensive coaching centers effectively in order to study 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.320 enough for it. And these things are these things are 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.840 really expensive to the point where this kid's family like 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.480 sold their ancestral lands in order to be able to 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.440 pay for test coaching so this kid could become a doctor. 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.240 And she had passed the test after like not getting 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.640 high enough scores like the previous two times, and then 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:38.880 he had to take it again. There are stories like 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.600 this all over India and it's just a nightmare. Yeah, 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.560 so much of this too shouldn't be separated from the 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.360 broader issues gen Z and Jin's Alpha are having all 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:52.079 over the world, right, Yeah, like this is part of that. 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.880 Like this is we are fucked. We have no way 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.960 of making it in the economy. You've left us and 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.160 one of the tiny slim slippers of a way to 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:04.520 get ahead is just a scam too, Yeah, I get it. 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:06.000 They should be pissed. 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:11.160 Yeah, And like it's particularly intense in Indio because there's 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.160 a story recently that CNN was talking about where there's 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.400 a study that showed that there's a forty percent unemployment 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.520 rate for graduates under the age of twenty five. Good god, 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.960 that is nightmarish. That's end of civilization kind of shit. 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:28.720 Like any sane government would be worried about a revolution 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:32.080 in these conditions. Those are the kind of unemployment levels 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.160 that got you the Arab spring, right, Like, yep, that's 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.040 how this stuff happens. And Facebook, yeah, and Twitter, I 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:43.160 guess yeah, well yeah, Facebook playing both sides on that one. 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:44.480 Sha I roan. 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:48.840 Yeah, a variety of foreign intelligent agencies from all over 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:52.160 the world, a lot of things like yeah, a lot 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:52.600 of things. 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.600 Yeah, and speaking of things that have a lot of 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.960 problems that the education system as well, like there's other 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.720 issues with it. Right, the BJP, again, they've been in 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.920 power for twelve years, so they've installed a bunch of 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.160 RSS guys, like in the Department of Education, and so 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.000 you get this curriculum that in something that I think 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.160 is very familiar to Americans, where you're just getting all 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.320 of this right wing nationalist bullshit just like attempting to 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.560 be pumped into the education system. They're doing that too. Yeah, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:25.200 and conditions over this are bad enough that yeah, people 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:26.560 take to the streets. 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.800 Yeah, as they should and did. Yeah. 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.400 Yeah, it's it's I don't know, like a lot of 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.000 the stuff reading this, it was like, oh, I've like 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:38.160 I've like been in this protest like so so originally 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.120 these originally the protests are not that large in scale. 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.839 But there's there's a big march on like July twentieth that's, 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.040 you know, like a march at the Parliament and there's 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.320 a giant police attack on it. That's an attempt at 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.640 crush and movement entirely, and it doesn't work. It does 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:56.520 exactly the opposite. It has, you know, a very very 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.439 familiar pattern of a bunch of people watch like a 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:03.960 bunch of actual literal children who are protesting, like the 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.120 answers to the test got sold to a bunch of 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:08.800 rich kids. Then they get the shit beat out of it. 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:13.640 This suddenly like accelerates the protest massively and massively increases 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.000 the number of people who are in the streets, and 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.920 you know, this eventually does the unthinkable, which has forced 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.600 the government to make the Minister of Education resign, and 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:28.640 they're also able to get some reforms. The multi government 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.400 in theory says it's going to address like some of 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.480 the kind of like bureaucratic things around why it's so 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.920 easy to get these questions. They also promise not to 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.800 arrest any of the protesters, a thing that is never true. 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.200 They are every single time you promise this, they are 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:42.840 always lying. 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:43.800 Oh yeah, yeah. 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.680 But is also the thing that a government does when 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:47.400 it is scared. 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.400 Yeah, it's a sign that they know they can't start 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.680 talking about cracking heads from the jump. 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.320 Yeah yeah. And I think we're going to get a 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:58.839 bit into more of the reason why the government was 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.000 so alarmed about this later. But one of the things 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.360 where I think this probably unfortunately was good strategic timing 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.440 by the government is that these were these protests were 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:11.800 sort of like crystallizing into these more general like antimody protests, 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.560 and by sort of heading it off at the past 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:17.280 here over an issue where like in theory, the BJP 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.560 also wants the tests to work normally although obviously this 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.400 does beg the question like, okay, so if it's government 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.600 officials who are selling the answers to the tests, like 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:32.720 who is running the governments? Yeah, which is you know, 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.320 another part of this and another thing that is a 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.920 part of this is these products and services. 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.600 Robert, Oh, god, I love a good product and a 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:42.200 good service. 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:54.240 Ugh, we're back. 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:56.920 We're filled with the bounty of products and services, and 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.680 we're ready to hear more about the cockroach Janta. 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:04.800 Yeah. So again kind of very familiar to a lot 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:06.959 of protests that we have seen over our lives. These 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.600 are very very social media driven protests in a way 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:12.440 that's also similar to a lot of the protests that 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.960 have been happening in actually, I mean particularly in neighboring 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.600 regions protesting like Bangladesh and Shri Laka, et cetera, et cetera. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.640 And you know, if if you watch any of like 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.880 the Instagram reels or whatever from these, god, I don't know, 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:31.720 it's it's so just depressingly familiar in a lot of 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.520 ways where it's it's very funny reading people talking about 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:37.720 this because they're like, ah, it's these like irony meme 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.679 driven you know, like kids making these like irony meme 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:42.719 driven things about like getting the shit beaten out of 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.120 by riot police and like, you know, it's like people 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.240 doing fit checks and then like getting like beaten with batons, 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:53.040 and it's like, oh, yeah, okay, we've all been there. 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:54.160 Yeah. 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.600 I've been having a very like I'm feeling old moment 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:00.480 these because it's like, oh god, I remember these from 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:04.480 like twenty thirteen when we were doing the same shit, And. 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:06.280 Well that's one of the tough things too as you 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.439 get older, is both you know, and this is less 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.360 the case when we're talking about a foreign movement, because 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.160 I don't think I have any ability to influence that. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.240 When you're talking to like younger activists, it's a mix 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.000 of wanting to like let them know about the pitfalls 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.280 and problems that previous generations have encountered when you see them, 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.320 you know, kind of heading in that same direction, and 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.440 also not wanting to be like, well, just because I'm 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:31.400 burnt out doesn't mean you should because I mean I should, Yeah, 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:33.640 Like you shouldn't be excited about this thing just because 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.120 I can't get excited anymore. 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.480 Yeah, And it's like, you know, and that's always the 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.800 thing with these kind of protests. It's like sometimes you win, yeah, 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.840 and sometimes you win and there's there's never God. David 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.560 Graeber had this quote I forget who. 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.240 Yes, well, I know the one you're talking about where 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.240 he's he's talking about like the dealing with. 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.440 Like the surprise of victory. Oh, I was actually gonna 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:56.760 do a different one. Oh, okay, that one's also good. 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.920 But he had this quote with a revolutionary in from 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.280 the twenty eleven like uprising there, and you know, she 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:06.160 had this quote where it was like, you do these 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.720 protests all the time, and sometimes thirty people show up 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.080 and you're depressed, and sometimes one hundred people show up 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:13.720 and you know, you're really happy, and then one day, 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:15.720 eight hundred thousand people show up and you kind of 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.720 forgot that could happen. Yeah, And that's kind of what 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.400 this is, right, where it's like, yeah, that's that's exactly 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:22.920 how it goes. 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:23.120 Right. 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.200 It starts as like a bit from a dude who's 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.080 not even in India at the time, right, he's at 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.800 a school in the US and he and so he 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.040 just makes this kind of meme page and it takes off. 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:37.800 Yeah, and then suddenly you know you actually have part 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.520 of this is also like weird stuff about how algorithms work, 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.600 but like part of what's been happening here too is 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:46.440 that there's been a huge shift in the regime in 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.040 India's ability to control social media, which something they've been 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.120 very very good at up until this point. They've been 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.480 really good at controlling both sort of online discourse and 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.320 also have taken almost complete control over just the regular 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.560 mainstream media and these protests, and like the way that 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:04.800 people are just sort of casually being like hey, fit 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:06.440 check going out to a protest, and like the way 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.960 that the self spread algorithmically, and the way that you know, 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.320 you have people going out for protest stuff. Then that 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:14.200 also mixes with is you know, people who are going 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.800 out just to film it for like their Instagram reels 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.760 and it, but all of them, all of them end 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:23.400 up like in the streets, and you get the situation 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.360 where like the mainstream media is just like absolutely refuses 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.440 to talk about the protest whatsoever. But then you know, 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:33.640 if you're like on Instagram, you're on any social media site, 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.360 it's the only thing you're seeing. And this kind of 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.280 weakens the control that the BGP has been able to maintain. 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.720 Over all of these spaces. Yeah, but that doesn't mean 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:46.360 that like they've you know, lost control completely. You know, 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:48.760 the BGP is like kind of in their counterattack phase 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:50.840 right now, and you get a really bleak look at 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.720 how like right wing governments with longstanding sort of right 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.440 wing online basis and media bases work where they do 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.400 these like harassment campaigns as women who went out protesting 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.399 they share do. Yeah, it's like it's all the stuff 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.280 that you're familiar with, right, Like they'll show clips if 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.560 people like on news channels and then people will like 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.400 dogs them and like start stalking them and they get 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:13.480 threats and. 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.560 Yeah I've heard people had to like hide and stuff. Yeah, 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.000 especially like female activists while they were during the protests. 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:20.679 Yeah. 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.720 Yeah. And it's also you know, it's like it's like 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.879 large scale threats to sexual violence are yep, a very 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.520 common part of this. And that's god, yes, you know, 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:30.520 that's like how these people are able to maintain power. 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.879 But even as this sort of digital kind of attack 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:38.159 is happening and it's extremely brutal and it's really a mess, 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:42.399 the control of the mainstream media is also slipping. One 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.479 of the things I learned, like reading about this is 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.399 there's a term that I guess generally kind of like 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.760 opposition people are using with the protesters also used where 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.520 they call they call the like the mainstream press, like 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.960 goaty media, which is like it's like lap in Hindi. 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.600 So it's it's basically like calling them like lapdog media 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.199 instead of being watchdogs, which I love. I don't know, 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:03.960 I like it a lot. 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:05.280 Yeah, I did too. 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.520 That's great. It's like it's good. I don't know, I 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.040 don't I don't know exactly how to steal that for us, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:12.320 but I love it. It's great. 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:14.560 Yeah, I should be thinking about that. 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.359 Yeah. But part of the problem with with having you know, 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.360 this kind of like incredible degree of like media centralization 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:26.560 that the regime has been able to pull together is that, 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.960 you know, after being in power for so long, having 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:36.080 their narrative be like completely hegemonic for so long, they're 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.399 running into like the cracks, you know, these sort of 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.760 cracks forming in their nationalist messaging, because like they're running 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.600 into the fundamental problem that you can't eat national pride. 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.520 And so if if literally the entire media all the 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:50.800 time is trying to ignore that these protests are happening, 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:52.720 and then also was telling you that your country is 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.760 great and like modi is great and you're such a 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.560 world great world leader. But then you know you can't 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:02.800 feed your family. That that's actual problem. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.760 and like and like normally the way that nationalists would 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.400 sort of deal with this is to be like, yeah, 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.760 you don't have jobs and your economy sucks because of 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.399 like some either immigrant group or in this case, it 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.480 would sort of like shuld probably be doing this with Muslims, 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.080 but they've been in power for so long that it's 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.000 like kind of hard to do that because it's like 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.320 this is your country now, right, like you have taken 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.600 control of it. And yet Yeah, and this kind of 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.159 feeds into this, you know, question at a broader level 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.359 about what these protests are actually about, because on a 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.439 very basic level, they're about education perform and they're about 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.119 these tests, and they're about the education system as a whole. 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:45.560 But on a broader level, it's more complicated because these protests, 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.400 as you know, protests often do function as a sort 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.240 of aggregator of different kinds of struggle with you know, 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.359 different beliefs and motivations, and you get a whole bunch 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.280 of different kinds of people in the street. I want 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:01.960 to read this quote from an interview Frontline India did 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:03.960 with the guy who was the founder of the CJP, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:05.880 which is to say, just like the guy who made 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:06.960 the meme that went viral. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.160 Yeah, yeah, that is how he got the job, so 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:12.520 to speak. And he's done a really good job, by 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:14.959 the way, Like I think he's been really responsible. Yeah, 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.159 he could not have anticipated this happening, but he seems 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:19.720 to be really dedicated to the cause. 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:22.359 Yeah, And I want to quote him here talking about 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.199 what the ideology of this party, if it existed, would be. 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:29.040 The ideology of the CJP and many of our young 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:33.040 people are also very progressive, liberal, secular, will be secular, 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.719 democratic and socialist, and we strive for social justice. And 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.400 he also mentions three people that he's you know, he's 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.040 he's inspired by, and two of them I think are 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.800 kind of not particularly surprising given this kind of like 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.480 this is kind of what like secular, progressive democratic key 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.399 politics look like, which is he mentions Gondi and Nehru. 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.119 But what's interesting and what I haven't seen literally at 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:59.480 all in any other coverage at this protest, is that 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:05.880 the third person that he mentions is Ambedkar, which, yeah, 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:08.720 I assume you, having been there and spend a deep 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:10.440 amount of time in India, I assume you know who 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:14.200 Ambedkar is. No, no, no, I don't know. Really interesting, okay, 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:16.239 not in a meaningful way. Now, this is actually kind 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.320 of a good proxy. I assume people listening to the 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.480 show know who Gandhi is. You've probably at least heard 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.560 of Nehru. Yeah, who was the first trime Minister of India. Yeah, 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.399 Ambitcar is a lot less well known. He's another one 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.560 of the very important sort of independence era figures in India. 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.439 But he is the guy around which like the anti 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:35.959 cast movement rallies was it? 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:37.440 Was he in the fifties or sixties. 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:39.840 No, he like first starts this in like the like 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.359 the twenties and thirties, and then he's alive through independence. 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.360 Oh okay really that era? Yeah yeah, yeah, he's he's 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.359 around like in the era of like revolutionary struggle against 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.040 the British creed independence yeah yeah, yeah, and then he, 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.320 you know, he like survives through independence and gets to 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:54.560 see some of that. 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.000 The partition of India and all that good stuff. Yeah, 0:21:57.080 --> 0:21:58.480 all the fun things happen. 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:00.200 Yeah, and this is a period, you know, if you 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:02.639 look at like the nineteen ten's, twenties thirties, this is 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.080 a period both about the anti colonial struggle and then 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.879 also like what the struggle is going to be, right, Like, 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.119 who's whose vision of India is going to come out 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.120 of a post independence world if there is one? And 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:18.320 Mbitkar's thing here is yes, like we want like we 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.199 want independence and we want socialism because you know, a 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:22.960 lot of the people of the like Neighbory is technic, 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:25.159 is like a kind of socialist right, like a lot 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:29.400 of a lot of the independence activists are. But he's 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:31.719 also in a position of we need to get rid 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:35.760 of the cast system because he sees it as like correctly, 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:38.840 as like an incredibly powerful sort of force of oppression 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.480 in Indian society. And he thinks that that's not something 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.000 that they should like wait until independence to deal with. 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.200 And so he's a very very important like leader in 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.320 the anti cast movements and he's probably I think he's 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.160 probably just like their best known intellectual. I would really 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.159 recommend reading his book, The Annihilation of Cast. Well, I 0:22:57.200 --> 0:22:59.440 say book, it's like not that it's not that long, yeah, 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:01.960 Like it's probably my favorite thing I've read and from 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.520 the writers of that era. It's an address that he's 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.720 making basically to both I guess you'd call it like 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:11.399 more conservative pro in dependence activists and then also to 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:14.040 the socialists to be like, hey, you should also talk 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:16.040 about cast at the same time you're talking about British 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:30.080 oppression and also class. The CJP founder like mentions this 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:34.920 because he's from a low cast background and he goes like, yeah, 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.520 like no, like I wouldn't have been able to go 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.399 to school in the United States and like have the 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:44.000 successes that I've had in my life without ambicar. I 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:45.960 thought this was really interesting because it's not mentioned in 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:49.440 any other reporting, even though it's like in an interview 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:53.040 he's said, and also, I think this is a dynamic 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.840 here that is like not well understood in most places, 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.440 that like, this is a still operative system of oppression 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:02.399 that people are still fighting against, and that is, you know, 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:05.119 relevant enough to be like one of the things that 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:07.119 gets mentioned by the guy who starts this movement. And 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:09.480 that's not to say the rest of the movement like 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:14.560 necessarily is exactly this focused on it, which is one 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:16.159 of the parts of this movement that's both why it 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:18.920 succeeded and also one of the kind of messy parts 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:20.919 of it, right, is that on the one hand, this 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:23.439 has become a really powerful vehicle for these sort of 0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:28.080 like broadly secular like pro democracy, like anti Moody, anti 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:32.240 dictatorship students, and there's always been like a fairly large 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:34.920 like cohort of you know, sort of like young left 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:37.960 leaning or leftist students. I mean, there was a whole 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:40.400 i don't know what you'd call it, like social panic 0:24:40.680 --> 0:24:44.639 slash government purge against this idea of like quote unquote 0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:47.760 urban Naxles, which was supposed to be like oh, there's 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:50.199 like these like urban versions of like the Naxal like 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:53.080 communist guerrillas that are in the universities, which is, you know, 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:55.960 in a lot of ways, very similar to but a 0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:59.800 significantly more advanced and repressive version of the stuff that 0:24:59.880 --> 0:25:01.880 like you see the Trump administration doing in the US 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:04.840 education system and the sort of like witch hunts so 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:08.159 for you know, Palestine and stuff like that. So you know, 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:11.480 you have that group of sort of like center left 0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:13.320 and leftist students to where a lot of people who 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:15.800 started the protest movement, but also there's also just like 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:19.440 BJP kids, Yeah, who are in the streets because they're like, yeah, 0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:21.680 like we all got fucked in our tests. 0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:22.440 Because it's bullshit. 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:23.200 Yeah. 0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:25.080 Yeah, it's the same reason. 0:25:25.119 --> 0:25:27.600 Now you've got a decent chunk at least like a 0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:30.040 third of the twenty or something percent of the people 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:33.840 who voted for Trump in twenty twenty four are more 0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:36.400 people who'd voted for Biden or for Hillary a few 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:39.280 years earlier. Right, there are people who maybe they went 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:41.720 for this guy, but as soon as it stops working 0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:43.719 for them, as soon as like the fascist and missn't 0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:46.080 delivering what it promises, they'll get pissed, they'll get out 0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:47.879 wide up with the streets. Yeah, you don't have to 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:49.800 like them to recognize that as a phenomenon. 0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:50.560 Yep. 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:51.200 Yeah. 0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:53.800 There's a kind of like third phenomenon too, which is 0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:57.200 as these protests go on, you get more and more 0:25:57.440 --> 0:26:01.480 of different kinds of like both rural and urban workers, 0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:04.680 more urban workers and real workers. But this but this 0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:07.680 is you know, the thing about education protests at their 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:10.240 core is that this is something that cuts across like 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:13.119 rural urban divides to an extent in the sense that 0:26:13.240 --> 0:26:16.840 like both poor rural kids and poor urban kids are 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:19.080 still getting fucked by this, you know, like by the 0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:23.040 exam system. But then you know, you get workers starting 0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:26.679 to join it who also have these I think, I 0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:29.920 don't know the way that commentators talk about it is 0:26:30.400 --> 0:26:33.280 that they're unconnected. I think they're a lot more connected 0:26:34.359 --> 0:26:36.840 than that. But you know, you get you get you 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:39.360 get these workers with these like cost of living crisis 0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:43.280 concerns who who are also joining this protest. And I 0:26:43.280 --> 0:26:46.800 guess part of this is a girl who spent a 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:49.520 lot of time studying and writing about ten. But this 0:26:49.600 --> 0:26:53.239 is kind of the exact class composition of Timen and 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:57.480 how those protests unfold. It where you have its origins 0:26:57.520 --> 0:26:59.720 in like this, in this specific student movement thing that 0:26:59.720 --> 0:27:04.239 has kind of specific student movement grievances that then you know, 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:06.800 goes into the streets around their specific demands, and then 0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:08.800 everyone watches them get the ship beaten out of them, 0:27:09.320 --> 0:27:11.160 and that brings more and more people into the streets 0:27:11.200 --> 0:27:14.480 who have their own kind of specific demands around like 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:17.920 the economic conditions they're in. And this is a very 0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:21.159 common like composition for revolts. I mean, it's it's the 0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:24.560 basis of everything from like I mean, god like it's 0:27:24.800 --> 0:27:27.080 part of the basis of the French Revolution. You can 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:29.679 look at like May sixty eight, Like, you know, so 0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:33.159 there are revolts against Pinochet, Like I mean, occupy is 0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:36.960 like a lot to a large extent, like this class base, right, 0:27:37.000 --> 0:27:38.520 if you have a bunch of students who are very 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:40.960 concerned about debt, and then that brings in a bunch 0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:43.480 of more working class people who are like not students anymore. 0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:49.800 But that's also what makes it dangerous. It's a very 0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:51.840 old kind of alliance, and it's a kind of alliance 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:56.760 that can always materialize because students and poor workers are 0:27:57.200 --> 0:27:59.440 some of the first people to feel when the economic 0:27:59.480 --> 0:28:03.760 ties are shit, and that like constantly creates these kind 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:07.879 of uprisings, right, and you know, they're dangerous enough that 0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:10.760 if you look at the last thirty years of Chinese politics, 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:14.239 a whole bunch of the politics of modern China are 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:18.040 about specifically making sure that this exact coalition doesn't form again. 0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:20.840 So you know, when the old working class is sort 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:23.000 of crushed with the like remains the welfare state in 0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:26.120 the nineties, like, there's a very deliberate attempt to buy 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:27.760 off the students at the same time to make sure, 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:30.840 they never make common cause, and like any time you've 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:33.600 seen sort of student worker actions since then, there's this 0:28:33.680 --> 0:28:37.000 massive crackdown on it because the Chinese government understands that 0:28:37.040 --> 0:28:41.040 this is this is a very very dangerous political coalition, 0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:44.360 and it's a political coalition that has outlasted I mean 0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:47.280 literally like a lot of the like working classes that 0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:49.840 were originally in these uprisings, like the French revolutionary like 0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:52.680 artis in class, like that doesn't exist anymore, right, Like 0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:56.960 the industrial working class in like France or like Italy 0:28:57.360 --> 0:28:59.720 in the sixties, like that also doesn't exist anymore, but 0:28:59.760 --> 0:29:05.880 you still see this like specific configuration of classes doing 0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:10.160 these protest movements. Yeah, there's obviously always a lot of 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:14.240 different motivations, and conflict against the state tends to be 0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:17.800 the thing that can like solidify a kind of identity 0:29:17.800 --> 0:29:20.200 that allows you to do any kind of mass movements, 0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:22.920 right Like this is like one of the few things 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:25.320 that can you know, fighting the police and having the 0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:28.560 state repress you, and that having the states as a 0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:31.600 force you can fight against concretely that just appears when 0:29:31.600 --> 0:29:34.920 you oppose it is one of the things that makes 0:29:34.920 --> 0:29:38.160 these kinds of protest movements work and then also underneath 0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:41.160 that the economy is broken in a lot of the 0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:44.280 ways you saw like in like twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen, 0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:46.360 which is like I think the last big cycle of 0:29:46.400 --> 0:29:49.840 these mass protests where you have this economic instability. And 0:29:49.960 --> 0:29:53.280 what I think is particularly similar between now and like 0:29:53.320 --> 0:29:57.120 twenty eighteen was that technically speaking, if you look at 0:29:57.160 --> 0:30:00.440 the economy in India right now, as as long as 0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:03.440 you ignore the youth unemployment rate, it looks like the 0:30:03.480 --> 0:30:06.040 economy is growing. Things are good. Yeah, yeah, it's like 0:30:06.040 --> 0:30:07.400 the same thing as the US, where it's like, well, 0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:09.480 I mean, the economic indicators have been getting worse, but 0:30:09.640 --> 0:30:12.680 like you know, technically speaking, it looks like the US 0:30:12.720 --> 0:30:17.120 economy is growing, but if you're living under it, it's like, no, 0:30:17.120 --> 0:30:19.720 it's not. And there's all of these sort of cracks 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:22.080 and ripples in the global economy. In twenty eighteen was 0:30:22.160 --> 0:30:25.600 like this where like the American economy was like doing fine, 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:27.440 and a lot of like the major economies were in 0:30:27.480 --> 0:30:29.920 theory doing fine. But then you know, there was a 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:32.160 series of currency like crises and like there were like 0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:36.240 these economic collapses. Yeah, there's like this hyperinflation in Turkey. 0:30:36.400 --> 0:30:39.600 You get these things in like Chile, and then you know, 0:30:39.640 --> 0:30:41.640 you start seeing these protests, you get like Haiti get 0:30:41.680 --> 0:30:44.600 the yellow ves, you see like Hong Kong Lebanon a 0:30:44.760 --> 0:30:49.080 rock god, like Iran, or for the first time of 0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:52.320 this giant cycle of protests in Iran me and Maar, 0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:56.000 like even like Russia briefly goes up. And I'm bringing 0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:58.160 this up to say that like one of the things 0:30:58.200 --> 0:31:02.160 about a protest like this, right, and there's been several 0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:05.800 other ones who are very big protests in Indonesia over 0:31:05.840 --> 0:31:11.800 the last couple of months. These protests often a recur 0:31:12.280 --> 0:31:15.880 and b are in some ways an early warning signal 0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:18.880 before like there's going to be another giant round of 0:31:18.920 --> 0:31:20.160 these kind of protests. 0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:22.760 Yeah, I mean hopefully all right. 0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:25.480 Yeah, I mean I think there's a decent chance of 0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:28.000 it because like you know, the economy still hasn't like 0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:31.960 hit rock bottom yet, no, and in the way that 0:31:32.200 --> 0:31:34.520 like you know, you saw that in twenty twenty where like, yeah, 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:37.040 the bottom finally fell out of the economy with COVID. 0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:39.880 Furthermore, maybe this is putting it a little bit too strongly, 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:42.360 but like the people who do not like the regime 0:31:42.440 --> 0:31:46.400 at particularly the activists have like tasted a little blood now, Yeah. Yeah, 0:31:46.520 --> 0:31:50.080 Like it's really hard once people win, once a movement wins, 0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:53.920 for it to not try to keep winning, right, That's 0:31:53.960 --> 0:31:55.040 kind of a natural instinct. 0:31:55.280 --> 0:31:58.280 Yeah, And and the BJP is is, you know, obviously 0:31:58.320 --> 0:32:01.240 doing its best to do to supper this, yeah, to 0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:04.480 suppress or co opt yeah. Yeah. But the problem that 0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:08.160 they're facing is is the fundamental problem of all of 0:32:08.200 --> 0:32:11.680 the regimes everywhere, which is that, like it's a lot 0:32:11.760 --> 0:32:14.040 harder to maintain one of these kinds of regimes when 0:32:14.080 --> 0:32:15.480 you have been in power for a long time and 0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:19.920 suddenly the economy implodes. And that's coming for India the 0:32:19.960 --> 0:32:22.200 same way that's coming for the rest of the world. 0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:24.920 And also in very specific ways of like you know, 0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:27.320 we've talked about I talked about on this show elsewhere, 0:32:27.760 --> 0:32:30.360 the effects of the blockade of the Stradiformus has been 0:32:30.360 --> 0:32:32.800 devastating in India in a way that it hasn't been 0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:33.400 in the US. 0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:33.840 Yep. 0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:38.239 And you know, you also have like heat waves that 0:32:38.320 --> 0:32:43.000 are also you know, both economically and just like living devastating. 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:45.920 There was an expression in the Hong Kong protest that 0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:49.360 they were drawing from a Mao quote but also it's 0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:52.000 way older than Mao, as like Mao says in the 0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:54.600 thing where he says it. But the Hong Konger has 0:32:54.600 --> 0:32:56.720 had this line that like a single spark can start 0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:59.720 a prairie fire. And the thing about the Indian economy 0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:02.720 is it is throwing sparks off everywhere. Sure, and that 0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:05.920 doesn't mean that every individual spark is going to be 0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:08.240 the one that starts the fire. But it means that 0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:10.880 as as you continue to get more and more sparks, 0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:13.600 the odds that you see another one of these revolts increases, 0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:17.680 and hopefully the odds that one of these protests in 0:33:17.680 --> 0:33:20.840 one of these movements can finally knock off the fascists 0:33:21.000 --> 0:33:25.040 and yeah, fundamentally transform Indian society rises. 0:33:24.880 --> 0:33:26.600 Yep, or at least get mody out. 0:33:26.760 --> 0:33:30.400 Yeah, just at a bare minimum. You know, I'll take 0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:36.320 the minimum if that's what it is. Oh God, Okay, Well, 0:33:36.360 --> 0:33:39.920 thank you Miya, and thank you the cockroach Janta over 0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:40.640 in India. 0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:41.360 Good work. 0:33:41.400 --> 0:33:45.160 Hell yeah, y'all, that is actually really nice to see. 0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:47.800 Fucking rocks. Give them hell of you. 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:03.160 Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. The 0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:06.480 past few weeks I've been covering the midterm primaries and 0:34:06.520 --> 0:34:09.719 the battle between the left and the establishment for the 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:13.759 future of the Democratic Party. As evidence just this month 0:34:13.880 --> 0:34:18.480 in Michigan and Wisconsin, left populism continues to be. 0:34:18.560 --> 0:34:19.320 On the rise. 0:34:20.000 --> 0:34:23.319 A few weekends ago, the Democratic Socialists of America held 0:34:23.360 --> 0:34:28.920 their national organizing conference, the Socialist Summit, in Chicago, Illinois. 0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:33.480 I did not attend the Socialists Summit because instead I 0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:37.400 wanted to check in on the other side of the isle. 0:34:38.200 --> 0:34:41.520 So last month I went down to Washington, d C. 0:34:42.200 --> 0:34:47.160 To attend the New Liberal Action Summit, or, as it's 0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:52.560 affectionately referred to by attendees, Globe con named after the 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:57.720 blue globe emoji used by liberals on Twitter, symbolizing globalism, 0:34:57.920 --> 0:35:03.080 free trade, free market capitalism, liberal immigration, and yimbiism. The 0:35:03.160 --> 0:35:06.239 New Liberal Action Summit was a three day event, with 0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:10.760 one main conference day filled with panels featuring policy makers, 0:35:10.920 --> 0:35:15.120 fireside chats with liberal politicians, and networking opportunities for young 0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:20.239 liberals who share a passion for center left policies. I 0:35:20.280 --> 0:35:23.160 went to eight of the fourteen panels. One of the 0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:28.000 first panels was on energy policy, featuring two former politicians 0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:33.879 turned fossil fuel lobbyists. Next, Representative Don Bayer spoke about 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:38.279 the need for AI regulation. A panel of policy advisors 0:35:38.320 --> 0:35:44.040 discussed why quote unquote slopulist tax proposals are stupid. Representative 0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:48.840 Richie Torres promoted abundance. Congressional representatives from the New Democrat 0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:52.440 Coalition had a panel about how their caucus is fighting 0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:56.600 back against DSA, and I listened into a live recording 0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:01.880 of Francis Fukuyama's podcast. Abundance was probably one of the 0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:05.200 most frequently used words at the conference. There was a 0:36:05.200 --> 0:36:10.239 big focus on building, housing, zoning reform, permit streamlining, and 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:13.880 a lot of speakers were nervous about the growing anti 0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:19.560 tech backlash and the public support for data center moratoriums. Interestingly, 0:36:20.160 --> 0:36:25.240 most panelists and attendees were impressed by Zoramamdani's reign thus 0:36:25.320 --> 0:36:30.640 far but still very oppositional to stuff like wealth taxes, 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:35.640 the rent freeze, populism in general, DSA as an organization 0:36:36.239 --> 0:36:41.440 and their other candidates. About three hundred libs attended the 0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:45.880 summit last July. They mostly ranged between their early twenties 0:36:45.920 --> 0:36:50.960 to late thirties. These are econ, POLI, PSI, and law students, 0:36:51.320 --> 0:36:59.000 young professionals, campaign staffers, influencers, policy wonks, and aspiring policy wonks. 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:03.000 Just as the use of the blue globe emoji online 0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:07.640 was in response to socialists identifying themselves online via the 0:37:07.680 --> 0:37:12.200 red rose emoji, this whole conference and the org behind 0:37:12.239 --> 0:37:17.280 it is a response from young ish liberals to rising 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:21.440 populism in the United States, and especially the growing influence 0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:25.520 of the Democratic Socialists of America on the Democratic Party. 0:37:26.400 --> 0:37:29.440 The New Liberal Action Summit is put on by an 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:35.840 organization called the Center for New Liberalism or CNL. CNL 0:37:36.120 --> 0:37:40.160 is a nonprofit five oh one C four quote digital 0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:44.360 first grassroots organization dedicated to fighting for liberalism during the 0:37:44.400 --> 0:37:49.080 age it is most under attack, according to their website. 0:37:49.200 --> 0:37:52.480 At the summit, they were giving out CNL stickers, which 0:37:52.560 --> 0:37:56.239 they sell on their website for five dollars. One of 0:37:56.280 --> 0:38:00.320 the stickers reads quote, we believe in economic growth both 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:03.920 through free markets, a robust social safety net, the free 0:38:03.920 --> 0:38:08.719 flow of people and goods, deregulating barriers to housing and employment, 0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:13.800 immediate criminal justice reform, a tech optimist society at tax 0:38:13.920 --> 0:38:18.080 on carbon freedom regardless of gender, age, race, religion, or 0:38:18.120 --> 0:38:25.319 sexual orientation. Pragmatism over populism, cnliberalism dot org, forward slash join. 0:38:26.280 --> 0:38:29.440 The Center for New Liberalism claims to have about eleven 0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:34.640 thousand members and fifty local chapters in cities across the US, 0:38:35.160 --> 0:38:39.799 though according to their website, cnl's private Slack channel has 0:38:39.880 --> 0:38:44.400 just about seven hundred dues paying members of the organization. 0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:48.520 In contrast, DSA is about one hundred and twenty thousand 0:38:48.760 --> 0:38:53.480 dues paying members. During the summit, I spoke with cnl's 0:38:53.560 --> 0:38:57.560 deputy director, Tobin Stone, and he told me that the 0:38:57.600 --> 0:39:01.600 Center for New Liberalism is specifically intending to serve as 0:39:01.640 --> 0:39:06.360 a counterweight to the DSA. Stone said that the populist 0:39:06.400 --> 0:39:10.640 right has their own little organizations like TPUSA, the populist 0:39:10.760 --> 0:39:14.279 left has the DSA, and the Center for New Liberalism 0:39:14.320 --> 0:39:18.600 wants to be both a political organizational force as well 0:39:18.640 --> 0:39:22.399 as a social body for young center left liberals who 0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:26.839 believe in quote unquote lower case L liberalism to meet 0:39:26.880 --> 0:39:31.480 with each other, organize, and advance their ideas. Stone did 0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:35.160 admit that most moderate Democrats are kind of dropping the 0:39:35.160 --> 0:39:38.440 ball right now. The Republicans are super unpopular and voters 0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:42.600 are expressing all these things around affordability, but moderate Dems 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:45.840 have failed to seize this moment. There is a big 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:49.240 window open for Democrats, and really the only people taking 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:50.240 it are the DSA. 0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:53.120 What we're trying to do is we're trying to say, look, no, 0:39:53.200 --> 0:39:54.759 we can be central left, moderate, what ever you want 0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:57.120 to call us, but actually have a real agenda that 0:39:57.160 --> 0:40:00.919 excites people and offers alternative what the DSA is saying, 0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:03.840 because none of these a lot of these current moderates, 0:40:04.120 --> 0:40:06.520 like in some ways we'd rather have them than a 0:40:06.560 --> 0:40:08.879 DSAY person. At the same time, like the moderates can't 0:40:08.920 --> 0:40:11.759 just be sitting there doing nothing. They have to be 0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:14.160 willing to take on the fights, like fight the nimbi's 0:40:14.640 --> 0:40:15.959 and build more housing because young. 0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:17.160 People can't afford housing anymore. 0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:18.799 So that's what we're trying to do, is like be 0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:20.799 a counterwait and up for a real alternative. 0:40:21.440 --> 0:40:25.200 About two years ago, CNL Deputy director Tobin Stone told 0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:29.719 the Columbia Journalism Review quote, were Hillary Clinton Democrats? 0:40:29.719 --> 0:40:30.200 Basically? 0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:33.920 Now that was two years ago, but last month I 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:37.840 asked Stone what kind of politicians does CNL want to 0:40:37.840 --> 0:40:39.280 see taking power? 0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:42.200 They ftterally like you see people like Jake Auchenclass. I 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:46.080 think when people hear and talk it residates like he's 0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:48.160 incredibly smart and he knows how to talk to people 0:40:48.200 --> 0:40:49.960 and about the issues that they're mad about. 0:40:50.960 --> 0:40:55.799 Jake Auchngloss headlined cnl's opening reception on the first day 0:40:55.880 --> 0:41:00.240 of the summit. Aucenlass is a Congressional rep from Massachusetts 0:41:00.280 --> 0:41:04.080 and a former Marine. After Zoramuandani won the Democratic primary 0:41:04.200 --> 0:41:08.840 last June, Auchenlaus wrote a blog post on Substack, reading, 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:14.680 neither democratic socialism nor crony capitalism will deliver financial freedom. 0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:18.480 I propose a ten word agenda for financial freedom for 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:23.080 the middle class. Treat cost disease, reduce the debt, and 0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:28.880 save social security unquote. Earlier this year, his reelection campaign 0:41:29.120 --> 0:41:33.239 accepted over twenty five thousand dollars from Pallentier, including seven 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:38.239 thousand dollars from Pallenteer's CEO, Alexander Karp. In January twenty 0:41:38.280 --> 0:41:42.960 twenty three, Auchenclaus was the first Congressman to read an 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:47.799 entirely chat GPT generated speech on the House floor. This 0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:51.200 speech was in support of a bill to create a 0:41:51.320 --> 0:41:57.160 joint US Israel AI Center for the Development of AI research, 0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:02.440 and last year Auchenclaus told Politico that it's quote unquote 0:42:02.480 --> 0:42:08.080 readily apparent that TikTok's algorithm is quote amplifying anti American, 0:42:08.320 --> 0:42:15.440 anti Israel content disproportionate to its actual frequency. Stone told me, quote, 0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:19.560 we need more people like Jake Auchencloss and not all 0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:22.080 of the electeds in this room, but like a lot 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:25.640 of the folks here. But also what we're trying to 0:42:25.680 --> 0:42:28.839 do and eventually want to do is like have our 0:42:29.000 --> 0:42:33.520 chapters be the group that identifies some potential candidates unquote. 0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:38.719 Stone also pointed to State Rep. Jasper Martis, who became 0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:43.279 friendly with CNL through the organization's anti tariff advocacy. 0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:45.160 You want to see what we can do as an 0:42:45.200 --> 0:42:48.479 organization to help elevate voices like him who can be young, 0:42:48.640 --> 0:42:52.120 charismatic and is without offering an agenda that we think 0:42:52.480 --> 0:42:54.920 would do more harmful good on ere or do. 0:42:54.920 --> 0:42:57.480 You see a point where you will not just have 0:42:57.600 --> 0:43:01.160 to kind of offer an alternative to what the DSA 0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:03.760 is offering, but but like but in primaries like specifically 0:43:03.840 --> 0:43:06.960 kind of like like like counter them, like like directly. 0:43:07.120 --> 0:43:08.560 Yeah, like that is like part of what we want 0:43:08.600 --> 0:43:11.080 to do is we have always been and will continue 0:43:11.080 --> 0:43:13.919 to be willing to get directly into those primaries, whether 0:43:13.960 --> 0:43:16.560 it's supporting someone we already you know and work with, 0:43:17.360 --> 0:43:19.800 like it likes to be up here today, or like 0:43:19.960 --> 0:43:21.799 if someone tries the primary jake out and class, our 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:24.040 Boston chapter is absolutely going to be out knocking doors 0:43:24.440 --> 0:43:27.680 to support him, especially if it's a DSA candidate. But 0:43:27.719 --> 0:43:29.920 then also, like again, long term, we would love to 0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:31.840 be able to be the group that can identify the 0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:35.080 candidates who can run against the tasty. We want to 0:43:35.080 --> 0:43:36.960 do the work to find those young charis amountic candidates 0:43:37.160 --> 0:43:39.920 and get them to run again to the DSA. 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:41.320 Candidate and offer them real trains. 0:43:41.600 --> 0:43:44.120 We really just want to see like organization like five 0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:47.239 year old feet even bigger. We want to not just 0:43:47.239 --> 0:43:48.839 be like doing this conference here in DC, but then 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:50.360 go over like all over the country and say, like 0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:53.120 we can go in Denver and host a whole conference 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:55.560 in Denver with all of our members of a chapter, yeah, 0:43:55.600 --> 0:43:58.360 talk and about the work and to elevate the pragmatic 0:43:58.360 --> 0:44:00.520 politicians in Colorado or New York. 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:06.640 Late Slantaccorld, the Center for New Liberalism's annual impact report 0:44:06.880 --> 0:44:10.120 for the election year of twenty twenty four, claimed that 0:44:10.160 --> 0:44:14.240 the organization made five thousand, five hundred dollars in quote 0:44:14.520 --> 0:44:19.480 successful campaign contributions and gained one hundred and eighty six 0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:24.200 new members. That's one hundred and eighty six new members 0:44:24.680 --> 0:44:29.640 during the year of a highly impactful presidential election. DSA 0:44:29.800 --> 0:44:33.760 gained over seven thousand members in just the two months 0:44:33.840 --> 0:44:37.479 after the twenty twenty four election, and since then, DC 0:44:37.600 --> 0:44:41.040 membership has more than doubled, from fifty thousand to one 0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:45.320 hundred and twenty thousand members. Just ten years ago, DSA 0:44:45.400 --> 0:44:49.920 had only five thousand members before Bernie Sanders first presidential campaign, 0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:54.919 which breathed new life into the organization. But in order 0:44:54.960 --> 0:44:59.840 to fully understand CNL, you have to understand their deeply 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:05.960 online origin, because they essentially internet trolled themselves into something 0:45:06.080 --> 0:45:10.440 resembling a real political organization. Center for New Liberalism can 0:45:10.480 --> 0:45:15.320 be traced back to our slash neoliberal on reddit, where 0:45:15.719 --> 0:45:18.680 after the twenty sixteen election, a new team of moderators 0:45:18.800 --> 0:45:21.800 tried to grow the subreddit as a place to discuss 0:45:22.160 --> 0:45:26.200 liberal policy making and free market economics in response to 0:45:26.480 --> 0:45:31.760 online conversations about politics being dominated by populism, whether from 0:45:32.000 --> 0:45:37.360 MAGA or the rejuvenated socialist left. Following Bernie's twenty sixteen campaign. 0:45:38.160 --> 0:45:41.600 These moderators turned the subreddit into an online community of 0:45:41.760 --> 0:45:46.320 policy wonks discussing economics as well as neoliberal shit posting, 0:45:46.560 --> 0:45:49.840 in an attempt to compete in the arena of internet 0:45:49.880 --> 0:45:54.799 politics and make center left liberalism cool and memeable. And 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:57.920 I don't know about you, but when I think of cool, 0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:00.800 the first thing that comes to mind is reddit memes 0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:05.719 about liberal free market economics. In twenty eighteen, two moderators 0:46:05.760 --> 0:46:10.200 from this subreddit, Colin Mortimer and Jeremiah Johnson, started to 0:46:10.480 --> 0:46:15.760 consolidate this loose online community into a real organization called 0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:21.240 the Neoliberal Project. They started a at neoliberal Twitter account 0:46:21.760 --> 0:46:27.480 and launched the Neoliberal Podcast. All this neoliberal branding was 0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:30.799 sort of a troll at the time. Still now, the 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:34.880 word neoliberal was mostly used as a pejorative in current 0:46:35.040 --> 0:46:39.719 political parlance, so the Neoliberal Project's use of the term 0:46:40.200 --> 0:46:44.520 was almost this form of slur reclamation, a tongue in cheek, 0:46:44.800 --> 0:46:50.360 semi ironic but largely sincere embrace of neoliberal economic policies. 0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:54.080 To quote a twenty twenty two article in The Washington Post, 0:46:54.360 --> 0:46:59.000 quote Carl Nielsen, a twenty four year old aerospace engineer 0:46:59.239 --> 0:47:02.799 who leads the DC chapter told me his brother turned 0:47:02.840 --> 0:47:06.560 him onto this neoliberal community a few years ago, and 0:47:06.640 --> 0:47:08.280 he was immediately smitten. 0:47:08.640 --> 0:47:09.080 Quote. 0:47:09.520 --> 0:47:12.479 I was like, dude, this is it, this is where 0:47:12.480 --> 0:47:16.600 we belong. The memes were fantastic. They were doing a 0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:20.640 neoliberal shill bracket, which is a Twitter tournament where you 0:47:20.760 --> 0:47:25.319 vote to determine who's the chief neoliberal shill. That was 0:47:25.480 --> 0:47:28.880 really easy to get excited about, so I jumped right in. 0:47:29.719 --> 0:47:30.959 Unquote. 0:47:31.080 --> 0:47:35.160 The neoliberal shill bracket on Twitter is like a March 0:47:35.239 --> 0:47:41.600 Madness style bracket for Twitter users to rank which politicians, columnists, lobbyists, 0:47:41.719 --> 0:47:45.600 or influencers are the biggest neoliberal shill of the year. 0:47:46.160 --> 0:47:51.400 This basically amounts to standing figures like Ezracline, Matt Iglesias, 0:47:51.520 --> 0:47:56.839 Nate Silver, and the streamer Destiny. The Washington Post described 0:47:56.920 --> 0:48:00.279 the organization as being on quote a quest to bring 0:48:00.480 --> 0:48:05.400 market friendly moderation into the age of Internet meme politics. 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:10.560 In twenty twenty, the Neoliberal Project was absorbed into a 0:48:10.640 --> 0:48:16.040 centrist think tank called the Progressive Policy Institute. In the announcement, 0:48:16.160 --> 0:48:20.319 Will Marshall, the president of PPI, said that the Young 0:48:20.360 --> 0:48:23.719 liberals quote fill a vacuum in our politics for a 0:48:23.719 --> 0:48:29.440 pragmatically liberal alternative to right wing populism and democratic socialism. 0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:34.799 Colin Mortimer, the Neoliberal Project's executive director, is quoted in 0:48:34.840 --> 0:48:38.440 the announcement saying, over the last several years, we have 0:48:38.520 --> 0:48:42.640 built the Neoliberal Project into an online community of politically 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:46.400 engaged young individuals who are pushing back against the ideological 0:48:46.440 --> 0:48:50.560 extremes that put our country in peril. Now we are 0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:53.040 proud to join one of the most storied think tanks 0:48:53.080 --> 0:48:56.200 in the country as we develop and advocate for a 0:48:56.320 --> 0:49:01.240 radically pragmatic agenda for change our country so so urgently needs. 0:49:01.760 --> 0:49:02.280 Unquote. 0:49:03.239 --> 0:49:07.960 A quick note on the Progressive Policy Institute PPI was 0:49:08.000 --> 0:49:11.600 founded in the late eighties by the Democratic Leadership Council, 0:49:12.360 --> 0:49:17.040 when the word progressive referred to center left pragmatism, as 0:49:17.040 --> 0:49:19.960 opposed to the modern connotation of the term as used 0:49:20.040 --> 0:49:25.080 by left wing progressives today. In the nineties, PPI functioned 0:49:25.200 --> 0:49:29.400 as the idea factory of the Clinton administration and was 0:49:29.440 --> 0:49:31.600 a big part of the shift in the Democratic Party 0:49:32.120 --> 0:49:38.240 away from New Deal, Great Society redistributive liberalism towards the 0:49:38.280 --> 0:49:43.000 neoliberal politics of maximizing economic growth that defined the Clinton era. 0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:49.880 Soon after joining PPI, the Neoliberal Project rebranded into the 0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:55.000 Center for New Liberalism, displaying some awareness of the massive 0:49:55.280 --> 0:50:00.200 unpopularity of neoliberalism and that it might actually it be 0:50:00.280 --> 0:50:04.520 pretty hard to grow a political project under such a banner. 0:50:05.160 --> 0:50:09.839 CNL co founder Jeremiah Johnson, who also hosts the New 0:50:09.920 --> 0:50:14.520 Liberal podcast, told The Columbia Journalism Review that neoliberal is 0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:17.120 a great word to use quote when what you want 0:50:17.160 --> 0:50:19.880 to do is get in fights on the internet, but 0:50:20.160 --> 0:50:23.680 it turned out to be less great for recruiting Congress 0:50:23.680 --> 0:50:28.480 people to their cause. Two years after joining PPI, the 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:32.280 Center for New Liberalism started doing their annual New Liberal 0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:37.719 Action Summit. Twenty twenty six was the fifth year of GLOBECN. 0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:41.880 The Columbia Journalism Review wrote in twenty twenty four that 0:50:42.000 --> 0:50:46.279 the Center for New Liberalism is quote Biden's fighters in 0:50:46.320 --> 0:50:49.759 the meme trenches, doing what they can to make his 0:50:49.960 --> 0:51:05.400 brand of politics trendy again unquote. The past few years, 0:51:05.600 --> 0:51:09.120 the Center for a New Liberalism has tried to legitimize 0:51:09.160 --> 0:51:14.400 itself beyond its Reddit shit posting and humble Twitter troll beginnings. 0:51:15.080 --> 0:51:18.880 Earlier this year, CNL brought on Greg Schultz as a 0:51:18.960 --> 0:51:23.600 senior advisor. Schultz was the campaign manager for Joe Biden's 0:51:23.680 --> 0:51:29.440 twenty twenty presidential primary campaign and general election strategist. What 0:51:29.480 --> 0:51:32.759 are the aspirations for the New Liberals? Is helping to 0:51:32.800 --> 0:51:37.399 secure a center leaning candidate for president in twenty twenty eight. 0:51:37.680 --> 0:51:40.800 One of our big goals is definitely to influence to 0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:45.040 our next president and maybe there ends up being a 0:51:45.040 --> 0:51:47.440 more compromise candidate or what we're saying conference is the 0:51:47.480 --> 0:51:50.400 wrong word, but like you're seeing right now, like a 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:52.319 lot of people are gravit hitting towards us off. If 0:51:52.320 --> 0:51:56.520 he does end up running like people like him, it's 0:51:56.560 --> 0:51:58.160 a bit we would rather not see like a further 0:51:58.200 --> 0:51:59.759 Leck candidate, and we also want to be exceeded. The 0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:01.799 platform that we run on in twenty twenty eight is 0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:04.359 not when that sometimes you have to have a lot 0:52:04.360 --> 0:52:05.880 of opopulance and but like it's kind of like slowly 0:52:05.920 --> 0:52:07.120 losing the you see right now, we're just like, oh, 0:52:07.160 --> 0:52:09.799 cut everyone's taxes, Like we want to see like a 0:52:09.840 --> 0:52:14.520 real concrete platform that doesn't overpromise can be enacted and 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:18.560 you can maybe repair people's hope in government again. Senator 0:52:18.600 --> 0:52:21.560 Bennett talked about it earlier or alluded to it, but 0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:23.960 like people don't feel like government works anymore. So we 0:52:24.000 --> 0:52:26.319 want to make sure that the agenda in twenty twenty 0:52:26.320 --> 0:52:30.000 eight is one about making government work again. Obviously, we 0:52:30.000 --> 0:52:32.120 have to workshop the message. You figure out what it's 0:52:32.160 --> 0:52:34.640 gonna appeal to the American people the most, because part 0:52:34.640 --> 0:52:38.560 of it is like probably superfighting the DASI. We're aware 0:52:38.640 --> 0:52:41.200 they're going to exist in America, like they're part of 0:52:41.200 --> 0:52:44.560 the people climate. We don't want to take them away, 0:52:44.560 --> 0:52:46.560 but we also like think it will be extremely harmful 0:52:46.560 --> 0:52:49.920 if they're in the driver's seat. They should absolutely have input, 0:52:50.000 --> 0:52:52.640 but like if they're in the driver's seat, the presidential 0:52:52.680 --> 0:52:55.920 will like shit, like we're gonna lose again, and we 0:52:55.960 --> 0:52:57.839 want to make sure that we win because obviously if 0:52:57.840 --> 0:53:01.000 we lose again to Donald Trump or whoever his sudden 0:53:01.800 --> 0:53:04.760 era is like, it's not gonna be great for America 0:53:04.880 --> 0:53:08.080 or the rest of the international art national institutions. 0:53:08.400 --> 0:53:10.200 I mean, I think some of those DSA people would 0:53:10.400 --> 0:53:13.799 look at centrist candidates going up against Trump in like 0:53:13.840 --> 0:53:16.439 sixteen twenty four or like you know it's more center 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:17.799 leaning that would be. 0:53:17.840 --> 0:53:20.440 Very hesitant to call either of those centrists or the 0:53:20.719 --> 0:53:23.120 center left. Like if you look at the exit polling 0:53:23.200 --> 0:53:26.720 data from twenty twenty four. Twenty four, everyone thought Kamala 0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:29.400 was much further like from the center than Trump, which. 0:53:29.239 --> 0:53:33.040 Is ever good at marketing. But like, yeah, I mean 0:53:33.440 --> 0:53:35.600 it was not center like you ask anyone in. 0:53:35.600 --> 0:53:37.560 This room who's worked for We all work for a 0:53:37.600 --> 0:53:40.680 center left modern organization. We will also was not center left. 0:53:41.440 --> 0:53:43.279 There's a reason we lost in because dinner press serve 0:53:43.360 --> 0:53:45.440 voters thought for too far to leward, and I means 0:53:45.440 --> 0:53:47.759 you've heard of two out of touch. I think that's 0:53:47.800 --> 0:53:49.359 a good right for him out of touch. 0:53:50.760 --> 0:53:54.319 I think it's really important to understand that too far 0:53:54.520 --> 0:53:58.960 left and too out of touch are vastly different things. 0:53:59.600 --> 0:54:04.279 And secondly, what is considered quote unquote left is not 0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:09.600 at all clear. Does left refer to left wing economics, 0:54:09.800 --> 0:54:14.799 wealthy distribution, or like the sort of performative liberal wokeism 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:19.040 that was completely captured by corporations and the elite before 0:54:19.080 --> 0:54:23.840 being quickly dropped as Trump took back power. Because the 0:54:23.960 --> 0:54:28.280 recent batch of left wing populists are running on economic 0:54:28.320 --> 0:54:32.880 policies to make life more affordable, their focus on uplifting 0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:36.960 workers and the poor would materially improve the lives of 0:54:37.239 --> 0:54:42.600 large swaths of marginalized populations way more than corporations posting 0:54:42.760 --> 0:54:47.839 black squares, academic language policing, White House pride events, and 0:54:48.080 --> 0:54:52.279 Nancy Pelosi wearing a West African kente cloth stole as 0:54:52.320 --> 0:54:55.680 a scarf. A New York Times pull from May of 0:54:55.719 --> 0:54:59.160 twenty twenty six found that the majority of Democrats and 0:54:59.239 --> 0:55:03.479 Democrat lean independence do not want the party to move 0:55:03.560 --> 0:55:07.960 to the center on healthcare or economic issues, and should 0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:12.600 embrace economic populism. According to the Times poll, sixty three 0:55:12.640 --> 0:55:16.360 percent of likely Dems said our political and economic system 0:55:16.680 --> 0:55:20.759 needs major changes, and twenty percent said it needs to 0:55:20.760 --> 0:55:25.120 be torn down completely. Eighty eight percent said the economic 0:55:25.200 --> 0:55:28.480 system in this country is generally unfair to most Americans. 0:55:29.200 --> 0:55:32.920 Seventy four percent of Dems oppose sending aid to Israel. 0:55:33.680 --> 0:55:37.839 Most respondents were dissatisfied with the Democratic Party. Ninety one 0:55:37.880 --> 0:55:42.040 percent had not heard of abundance. Only five percent said 0:55:42.160 --> 0:55:46.759 the economic conditions were good or excellent, and forty nine 0:55:46.760 --> 0:55:50.480 percent said they were favorable to socialism versus twenty two 0:55:50.600 --> 0:55:55.719 percent unfavorable. Only twenty percent of respondents said the Democratic 0:55:55.760 --> 0:55:59.239 Party was too far to the left, and respondents were 0:55:59.360 --> 0:56:03.120 evenly split on whether the party in general should move 0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:06.680 to the center, but most said that the party should 0:56:06.719 --> 0:56:10.480 move to the left on things like healthcare. A frequent 0:56:10.800 --> 0:56:14.279 topic of discussion at the New Liberal Action summit was 0:56:14.320 --> 0:56:18.280 how the Democratic Party can win back quote unquote working 0:56:18.320 --> 0:56:21.759 class voters and a spoiler. They think it's by moving 0:56:21.760 --> 0:56:22.240 to the center. 0:56:22.600 --> 0:56:24.680 Something we've talked about at PBA for a long time 0:56:24.800 --> 0:56:28.600 is looking back as for a non college voters. 0:56:28.239 --> 0:56:29.360 Working class voters. 0:56:30.200 --> 0:56:32.880 We have a new report king assuming that showcases House and. 0:56:32.960 --> 0:56:35.240 Left fines are being a lot better in that regard 0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:36.560 than their progressive countervice. 0:56:37.640 --> 0:56:40.280 We do a little whole in non college voters working 0:56:40.320 --> 0:56:40.960 class voters. 0:56:41.000 --> 0:56:43.760 As usual, most of our data says that the people 0:56:43.760 --> 0:56:46.200 that vote for Zara tend to be heavily college educated, 0:56:46.239 --> 0:56:50.200 whereas is people without degrees that voting for quota, which 0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:53.160 the best sweet lens for working custers is not I 0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:55.640 think it's just has college reread does don't have a 0:56:55.680 --> 0:56:56.400 college degree. 0:56:56.960 --> 0:57:00.720 The New Liberals believe that DSA is out of step 0:57:00.800 --> 0:57:04.279 with the working class, and by working class they mean 0:57:04.680 --> 0:57:09.040 voters without a college degree. Moderates will often point to 0:57:09.680 --> 0:57:13.799 high profile races like zoron Or Abdul al said, where 0:57:14.400 --> 0:57:19.680 the more center leaning candidate often quote unquote wins the 0:57:19.960 --> 0:57:26.120 non college or low income demographic. Now, these wins are 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:30.800 often in the single digits. In the Democratic primary, Andrew 0:57:30.840 --> 0:57:35.320 Cuomo quote unquote one the under fifty k a year 0:57:35.400 --> 0:57:41.240 income bracket by eight points. Quomo also won the highest 0:57:41.280 --> 0:57:44.160 income bracket two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in over 0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:50.600 by eleven points, while Mamdani dominated the middle income brackets. 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:53.840 Almost this exact same trend appeared in the Abdul al 0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:58.600 Said versus Hailey Stevens primary in Michigan. Left wing populist 0:57:58.600 --> 0:58:02.240 candidates are doing so well with college educated voters, in 0:58:02.280 --> 0:58:06.120 part because they're just driving such high turnout, especially among 0:58:06.240 --> 0:58:11.120 millennials and Gen Z. But center left liberals will often 0:58:11.280 --> 0:58:16.680 use the support of DSA from possibly downwardly mobile college 0:58:16.720 --> 0:58:21.680 graduates to point towards socialism as this kind of disgruntled 0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:26.120 elitist phenomenon that's not actually connected with the quote unquote 0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:30.600 real working class, which again to them, means a voter 0:58:30.880 --> 0:58:35.960 without a college degree. And while income level or education 0:58:36.600 --> 0:58:41.400 can be an indicator of class, just defining working class 0:58:41.440 --> 0:58:45.200 as meaning a voter without a college degree doesn't really 0:58:45.280 --> 0:58:48.120 make sense nor does it tell you anything about the 0:58:48.240 --> 0:58:51.640 class interests of voters, because it doesn't actually point to 0:58:51.680 --> 0:58:56.320 anything regarding their place in the capitalist production process. Just 0:58:56.360 --> 0:58:58.280 whether or not you have a degree doesn't even point 0:58:58.320 --> 0:59:01.320 to what your income is, which which is itself kind 0:59:01.360 --> 0:59:04.560 of a flawed way of understanding what working class means, 0:59:05.040 --> 0:59:08.919 which in a Marxist sense, refers to whether you live 0:59:09.040 --> 0:59:12.680 off selling your labor for a wage, that is, being 0:59:12.720 --> 0:59:16.160 a worker, or if you own private property like business 0:59:16.480 --> 0:59:20.440 and make your money off of controlling other people's labor. 0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:25.160 But all that matters to these liberals is voter's proximity 0:59:25.200 --> 0:59:30.280 to higher education based on looking at election data, where 0:59:30.440 --> 0:59:34.560 DSA type candidates do very well with college educated voters 0:59:35.080 --> 0:59:38.480 and maybe don't do as well with what is categorized 0:59:38.600 --> 0:59:42.600 as a non college educated or maybe sometimes a low 0:59:42.680 --> 0:59:46.160 income voter, even if the difference is only a few 0:59:46.200 --> 0:59:51.960 percentage points. The liberal analysis of class simply being whether 0:59:52.160 --> 0:59:56.120 or not a voter has a college degree offers no 0:59:56.400 --> 1:00:01.200 insight into why a middle class of educated work are 1:00:01.400 --> 1:00:05.000 moving in droves towards social democracy or some form of 1:00:05.000 --> 1:00:09.960 democratic socialism, and are voting for policies that benefit people 1:00:10.240 --> 1:00:13.480 largely more poor than them, instead of just supporting the 1:00:13.600 --> 1:00:17.800 center left democrat who would advance elite interests. To this point, 1:00:18.120 --> 1:00:21.520 I talked with Ben Rose Porter, a professor of sociology 1:00:21.560 --> 1:00:25.040 at the City University of New York, about why class 1:00:25.080 --> 1:00:26.800 analysis is important. 1:00:27.680 --> 1:00:31.400 It indicates what your fundamental interests are going to be 1:00:32.160 --> 1:00:36.560 regarding the politics when it comes to how should the economy, 1:00:36.600 --> 1:00:39.960 how should our society be oriented. If you are a 1:00:40.040 --> 1:00:43.560 worker who makes your money by selling your labor, you 1:00:43.640 --> 1:00:47.360 are interested in a policy that gives labor a fair deal. 1:00:47.800 --> 1:00:50.840 If you are an owner, your interests are going to 1:00:50.880 --> 1:00:54.440 be geared oppositely. They're going to be geared towards capital, 1:00:54.480 --> 1:00:57.720 towards ownership of private property and the making of profit 1:00:57.800 --> 1:01:01.120 being protected against the interests of life, labor. And so 1:01:01.440 --> 1:01:04.640 this is the conception of class that I think paints 1:01:04.680 --> 1:01:08.080 a much more lucid picture of the world then one 1:01:08.080 --> 1:01:11.680 that just sort of treats, you know, the poorer you are, 1:01:11.920 --> 1:01:15.680 the more working class you are. It's absolutely true that 1:01:15.720 --> 1:01:17.600 the base of the working class is always the poor 1:01:17.800 --> 1:01:20.520 relatively speaking. I mean, the bottom strata of the working 1:01:20.520 --> 1:01:23.400 class is its source of power, and it's the better 1:01:23.440 --> 1:01:25.920 paid workers who, while you know, they are in a 1:01:26.080 --> 1:01:28.600 theoretical sense in the working class. They often are the 1:01:28.600 --> 1:01:31.160 ones who are comfortable with capitalist production because they're being 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:34.960 compensated fairly well. But again it's a kind of analysis 1:01:35.000 --> 1:01:39.800 that can't comprehend the liberal view cannot really comprehend how 1:01:40.200 --> 1:01:45.080 college educated people who may be securing somewhat you know, 1:01:45.160 --> 1:01:48.000 decent middle class jobs, they can't understand how they are 1:01:48.040 --> 1:01:50.800 also a part of the working class and respond to 1:01:51.520 --> 1:01:55.720 the economic squeeze that happens when capital rules the economy, 1:01:55.760 --> 1:02:00.360 when capital is so unquestioned by its liberal administrators that 1:02:00.520 --> 1:02:02.800 it just it squeezes the whole of the working class. 1:02:03.200 --> 1:02:06.920 Yeah, and there's these certain moments with like technological advance 1:02:07.000 --> 1:02:08.680 like you're seeing with like AI that lead to the 1:02:08.800 --> 1:02:11.960 de skilling of certain workers. Right the past twenty years, 1:02:12.440 --> 1:02:15.840 adults have been telling kids to just learn coding. Yeah, 1:02:15.960 --> 1:02:18.120 work in tech. This is like the last growth area 1:02:18.120 --> 1:02:18.720 of the economy. 1:02:18.800 --> 1:02:19.320 Learn coding. 1:02:19.800 --> 1:02:23.600 And now those skills are not as useful as they 1:02:23.720 --> 1:02:27.040 used to be because AI can do it. And there's 1:02:27.080 --> 1:02:31.920 this like proletarianization of tech workers happening that just this 1:02:32.000 --> 1:02:34.360 like liberal model. The working class then can't real understand 1:02:34.360 --> 1:02:36.720 why whise people are going to be turned against liberalists. 1:02:37.040 --> 1:02:40.200 Capital produces its own grave diggers marx rights in the 1:02:40.240 --> 1:02:43.960 manifesto right that, you know, the socialist projects sees that 1:02:44.000 --> 1:02:47.160 there is a fundamental antagonism in the capitalist mode of production, 1:02:47.560 --> 1:02:53.080 not only in that capital appropriates exploits workers. The capitalist 1:02:53.080 --> 1:02:57.720 class survives parasitically by squeezing the worker. That's fundamental to 1:02:57.760 --> 1:03:00.360 the capitalist system. Not only that, but it also is 1:03:00.400 --> 1:03:04.600 continually growing the working class. It's constantly pushing people out 1:03:05.000 --> 1:03:08.920 of their positions of property, but also out of positions 1:03:08.960 --> 1:03:11.960 of skilled labor into you know, having to move down 1:03:12.040 --> 1:03:14.960 into proletarianized positions where you are not going to be 1:03:14.960 --> 1:03:17.840 paid as much. And by constantly doing this, it's building 1:03:17.840 --> 1:03:19.400 a class that goes against it. 1:03:19.400 --> 1:03:20.880 It's the socialist. 1:03:20.320 --> 1:03:25.000 Project which recognizes those antagonisms inherent in the capitalist mode 1:03:25.000 --> 1:03:27.600 of production, and it is the liberal project that is 1:03:27.920 --> 1:03:31.960 utterly blind to them that just to the liberals, no 1:03:32.080 --> 1:03:35.800 capitalism is good. It increases GDP, right, it leads to 1:03:35.840 --> 1:03:40.120 economic growth. These antagonisms do not exist to the extent 1:03:40.160 --> 1:03:42.960 that you can show them to them. They absolutely refuse 1:03:43.040 --> 1:03:46.840 to acknowledge them or else to understand how they are 1:03:46.880 --> 1:03:50.160 fundamental to the capitalist system, and so they have no 1:03:50.240 --> 1:03:52.560 answer to this. You can see how these people who 1:03:52.600 --> 1:03:56.520 are themselves sort of like intellectual, you know, sycophants to 1:03:56.760 --> 1:04:01.640 the liberal institutions, they perceive like, well, if you're smart 1:04:01.640 --> 1:04:04.120 and you have the right policies and you believe the 1:04:04.200 --> 1:04:06.880 right things, you'll get taken care of. It's a very 1:04:06.880 --> 1:04:09.440 different experience from I think a lot of college grads 1:04:09.440 --> 1:04:11.880 who have tried very hard to do the right things 1:04:11.880 --> 1:04:13.760 and who do not have a place in the economy, 1:04:13.920 --> 1:04:16.480 or a very limited place with very limited power and 1:04:16.560 --> 1:04:17.880 very limited resources. 1:04:18.520 --> 1:04:23.280 While Andrew Cuomo slightly outperformed Mamdani among the lowest income 1:04:23.360 --> 1:04:27.160 voters in the twenty twenty five Democratic primary come the 1:04:27.280 --> 1:04:31.000 general election in November, that ceased to be the case. 1:04:31.760 --> 1:04:36.400 In the general, Mamdanni won low income districts by eleven points, 1:04:36.600 --> 1:04:41.000 to quote the New York Times quote, Mamdani largely expanded 1:04:41.000 --> 1:04:44.120 on the base he built during the primary in neighborhoods 1:04:44.160 --> 1:04:48.880 across the city. He swept communities of every income level 1:04:49.640 --> 1:04:53.760 save for New York's wealthiest enclaves, where his top opponent, 1:04:54.120 --> 1:04:59.760 former Governor Andrew Cuomo, performed best unquote in the November general. 1:05:00.120 --> 1:05:03.560 Donnie also won districts where less than twenty percent of 1:05:03.600 --> 1:05:08.840 the residents have a college degree by thirteen points, though 1:05:08.880 --> 1:05:12.840 a CNN exit poll of less than five thousand voters 1:05:13.400 --> 1:05:17.440 showed that Cuomo did just five percent better than Mamdani 1:05:17.960 --> 1:05:21.360 with voters without a college degree. I think it is 1:05:21.480 --> 1:05:24.880 also worth reiterating that one out of ten people who 1:05:25.000 --> 1:05:28.360 voted for Zorn in twenty twenty five also voted for 1:05:28.440 --> 1:05:32.840 Trump in twenty twenty four. That's something that liberals never 1:05:32.920 --> 1:05:35.480 talk about, And something else they never talk about is 1:05:35.520 --> 1:05:39.919 just how much these non college low income statistics graf 1:05:40.080 --> 1:05:45.200 ont age. More than anything else, both Mamdani and Abdul 1:05:45.200 --> 1:05:50.640 al Sayid overwhelmingly won with voters aged eighteen to forty five, 1:05:51.600 --> 1:05:54.360 young people who are low income, who maybe have not 1:05:54.480 --> 1:05:58.480 graduated college or are in college, or maybe just graduated 1:05:58.600 --> 1:06:02.680 college but are it's all low income. Those young people 1:06:03.000 --> 1:06:06.840 are backing DSA candidates. Those young people are not going 1:06:06.880 --> 1:06:11.080 to Andrew Cuomo in the general election or the primary election. 1:06:11.880 --> 1:06:15.480 The sort of low income voters that are going towards 1:06:15.520 --> 1:06:19.760 either these incumbents or more traditional moderate candidates are generally 1:06:20.120 --> 1:06:22.959 older voters. And if we want to have a real 1:06:22.960 --> 1:06:26.560 discussion on how the DSA can appeal to older voters, 1:06:26.640 --> 1:06:30.120 maybe voters who are not as politically engaged as younger voters. 1:06:30.640 --> 1:06:33.000 Then yeah, that is a real discussion to be had. 1:06:33.600 --> 1:06:37.320 But just breaking that down as DSA does not attract 1:06:37.440 --> 1:06:42.160 low income voters is just completely not true. Many low 1:06:42.240 --> 1:06:47.120 income people without a college degree are old retirees who 1:06:47.400 --> 1:06:51.320 tend to vote more conservative, even if they're registered Democrats. 1:06:51.920 --> 1:06:56.920 Another factor is the effectiveness of ad spending. Abdul said 1:06:57.080 --> 1:07:00.440 was outspent eleven to one, and that is going to 1:07:00.480 --> 1:07:04.120 have an effect on the election results. Blanketing the airwaves 1:07:04.160 --> 1:07:08.040 with misleading attack ads can be hugely impactful in rural 1:07:08.040 --> 1:07:12.640 areas and districts with low information or less engaged voters. 1:07:13.280 --> 1:07:16.520 This same general trend happened in the June twenty twenty 1:07:16.560 --> 1:07:20.480 six Democratic primary in New York City. That election was 1:07:20.680 --> 1:07:24.920 not divided by income or race. The largest indicator that 1:07:25.160 --> 1:07:29.560 skewed whether someone was backing the incumbent or the DSA 1:07:29.600 --> 1:07:33.240 was age. By and large, Younger voters, whether they were 1:07:33.640 --> 1:07:38.000 middle class or lower working class, backed the DSA candidates 1:07:38.040 --> 1:07:42.600 like Clare val Dez, while older voters backed the incumbents, 1:07:42.680 --> 1:07:46.640 the moderates, and the establishment politicians that these voters were 1:07:46.680 --> 1:07:49.840 maybe more familiar with that maybe has been representing their 1:07:49.880 --> 1:07:54.320 district for anywhere between five to thirty years. But what 1:07:54.440 --> 1:07:58.120 makes this whole college educated working class debate so absurd 1:07:58.160 --> 1:08:02.080 to me is that most of the city based Center 1:08:02.120 --> 1:08:06.400 for New Liberalism chapters don't even seem interested in trying 1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:10.640 to appeal to the voters that they think DSA is overlooking, 1:08:11.440 --> 1:08:12.680 like that if. 1:08:12.600 --> 1:08:15.960 The DSA can only appeal to the people in the 1:08:16.000 --> 1:08:18.559 college there, that's seventy sixty to seventy percent of voters 1:08:18.560 --> 1:08:20.479 that we are missing and we need to do better 1:08:20.520 --> 1:08:20.720 than that. 1:08:20.880 --> 1:08:22.880 Do you think that the New Liberals should be going 1:08:22.880 --> 1:08:25.000 after like a totally different voting block and what DSA 1:08:25.080 --> 1:08:25.880 is trying to go after. 1:08:27.160 --> 1:08:30.120 I don't know if that's our role. Like most of 1:08:30.120 --> 1:08:32.280 our chapters do operate in cities where it is more 1:08:32.320 --> 1:08:34.200 college educated things there are our role we view as 1:08:34.200 --> 1:08:36.360 like trying to convince the college educating people that we 1:08:36.400 --> 1:08:41.120 have the better ideas in the more optimistic vision, whereas 1:08:41.200 --> 1:08:43.040 then it's other groups like if we have a chapter 1:08:43.040 --> 1:08:46.200 in Swing district, obviously that's for PUAL that like our 1:08:46.280 --> 1:08:48.400 chapter in San Francisco is going to be focused on 1:08:49.840 --> 1:08:52.599 not that. Yeah yeah, yeah, So like I think there 1:08:52.640 --> 1:08:54.160 are groups in the stuff that should be doing that. 1:08:54.240 --> 1:08:55.200 I don't know, but our role. 1:08:55.840 --> 1:09:00.920 So CNL has already foreclosed themselves to really only going 1:09:00.960 --> 1:09:06.760 after college educated voters, despite insisting that their ideas are 1:09:06.800 --> 1:09:21.200 what actually can appeal to the working class. In evaluating 1:09:21.280 --> 1:09:26.200 the political potential of the Center for New Liberalism, one 1:09:26.240 --> 1:09:30.840 must keep in mind how their online shit posting origins 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:36.639 still influences their ideological outlook. If you recall, CNL describes 1:09:36.680 --> 1:09:42.120 itself as a quote unquote digital first grassroots organization, and 1:09:42.320 --> 1:09:46.400 on their website they claim, quote our work reaches upwards 1:09:46.439 --> 1:09:50.200 of sixty million people a month. That number seems to 1:09:50.240 --> 1:09:55.080 be almost entirely based on the impressions from their account 1:09:55.479 --> 1:10:00.519 on x the Everything app. These are Twitter views. So 1:10:00.680 --> 1:10:03.120 as much as CNL likes to put on their little 1:10:03.240 --> 1:10:08.720 in person networking events their own metrics, the organization is 1:10:08.800 --> 1:10:13.519 essentially a glorified Twitter account. And I could just go 1:10:13.600 --> 1:10:18.280 through years of bad or offensive tweets, and many people 1:10:18.280 --> 1:10:21.800 at the summit were very concerned about old tweets made 1:10:21.800 --> 1:10:26.479 by DSA candidate Daria Liisa of Ila Chavier, But rather 1:10:26.640 --> 1:10:30.560 than focusing on posting, I would prefer to engage with 1:10:30.600 --> 1:10:35.439 the actual substance of their politics and how CNL is 1:10:35.560 --> 1:10:40.799 trying and failing to place itself in opposition to the DSA, 1:10:41.240 --> 1:10:45.640 in part because of how much it's focused on online 1:10:45.920 --> 1:10:51.680 edge lord contrarian liberalism. For whatever reason, be it their upbringing, 1:10:51.840 --> 1:10:55.559 class position, or type of education, these liberals have not 1:10:55.840 --> 1:11:00.400 hopped on the populist train, but still feel left doubt 1:11:00.600 --> 1:11:02.840 from the rest of their age peers who are all 1:11:02.880 --> 1:11:06.080 having fun with DSA, and so they have decided to 1:11:06.680 --> 1:11:13.040 define themselves in opposition to populism. It's a reactionary liberalism 1:11:13.160 --> 1:11:16.960 in response to the growing influence of democratic socialism in 1:11:17.000 --> 1:11:21.880 the Democratic Party. So, in effect, their new liberal politics 1:11:22.400 --> 1:11:28.200 largely manifests itself as a form of contrarianism against popular 1:11:28.360 --> 1:11:34.000 left wing policies, while also continuously reiterating to themselves that 1:11:34.120 --> 1:11:36.839 left wing ideas aren't actually popular with the working class. 1:11:37.400 --> 1:11:42.200 It's a politics entirely downstream from trolling online. In an 1:11:42.240 --> 1:11:46.400 attempt to make center left liberals cool again, I went 1:11:46.439 --> 1:11:48.200 to a bar after the summit with a few of 1:11:48.240 --> 1:11:52.519 the attendees and a law student was passionately trying to 1:11:52.600 --> 1:11:57.160 argue why we should abolish FEMA as a federal agency 1:11:57.800 --> 1:12:01.479 and just have states pay for their own disaster response 1:12:02.000 --> 1:12:05.240 so that quote unquote, my tax dollars won't have to 1:12:05.280 --> 1:12:09.880 go towards idiots in Florida, And like both myself and 1:12:10.000 --> 1:12:14.280 a writer from the journal Liberal Currents had to explain 1:12:14.439 --> 1:12:18.719 from like first principles why it's good to care for 1:12:18.760 --> 1:12:23.720 poor people and care about it general public good. That's 1:12:23.760 --> 1:12:28.439 what I mean by contrarian liberalism. The Bay Area chapter 1:12:28.520 --> 1:12:32.160 of the New Liberals were involved with that pro billionaire 1:12:32.200 --> 1:12:35.559 march in San Francisco earlier this year in protest of 1:12:35.760 --> 1:12:40.680 California's proposed wealth tax, and stunts like this. March for 1:12:40.800 --> 1:12:46.600 billionaires is another perfect example of cnl's overly online, irony 1:12:46.680 --> 1:12:52.599 poisoned politics, which still display a deeper sincerity. Before I 1:12:52.680 --> 1:12:56.400 interviewed Professor Porter, I had him listen to a recent 1:12:56.439 --> 1:13:00.200 episode of the New Liberal podcast, hosted by the co 1:13:00.280 --> 1:13:05.440 founder of CNL, Jeremiah Johnson. The episode argued that liberalism 1:13:05.720 --> 1:13:10.120 is in crisis, but because there is no more great 1:13:10.200 --> 1:13:14.080 struggle in America. Basically, the economy is doing too good 1:13:14.720 --> 1:13:18.200 and that's triggered a sort of post modern crisis of meaning, 1:13:18.920 --> 1:13:22.960 resulting in voters sabotaging our own political system just to 1:13:23.080 --> 1:13:29.200 feel something, and confusingly, cnl's co founder proposes a centrist 1:13:29.360 --> 1:13:33.560 neoliberal technocracy as a way out of this crisis. 1:13:34.120 --> 1:13:36.519 The guy on the podcast is talking about technocrats and 1:13:36.560 --> 1:13:39.840 how one of the central liberal you know, programs of 1:13:39.880 --> 1:13:42.599 like a revived liberalism has to be like kind of 1:13:42.840 --> 1:13:46.519 you know, technocratic politics and a renewed like faith in 1:13:46.560 --> 1:13:50.439 technocratic politics. And I thought technocratic politics was very interesting 1:13:50.479 --> 1:13:54.280 because you know, the point that like you need technocrats 1:13:54.280 --> 1:13:57.479 to do good policy, to do good governance is a 1:13:57.520 --> 1:14:01.880 bit of an odd one because absolutelytly you need technicians 1:14:02.439 --> 1:14:06.280 to do good policy, like you know, complex social institutions 1:14:06.360 --> 1:14:09.479 at the scale of like you know, a city or 1:14:09.520 --> 1:14:12.800 a state or a federal government in today's world. You 1:14:12.840 --> 1:14:15.559 need people who know how to run systems and who 1:14:16.120 --> 1:14:19.400 are trained. You need intellectuals. You need technicians in a 1:14:19.439 --> 1:14:23.000 general sense, right, you need specialized people. What's interesting is 1:14:23.040 --> 1:14:25.960 that the whole thing allies like the crat part like 1:14:26.280 --> 1:14:31.759 technocrat the idea that well, those with technical capacities also 1:14:32.080 --> 1:14:36.479 rule this way in which it just completely conflates the 1:14:36.600 --> 1:14:42.120 idea of technical expertise and decision making at the highest 1:14:42.200 --> 1:14:44.920 level right, that it doesn't even think that those are 1:14:44.920 --> 1:14:48.240 two separate realms. It literally is the people who can 1:14:48.720 --> 1:14:53.400 technically do the job are also the people who should 1:14:53.520 --> 1:14:56.320 make all of decisions about what kinds of jobs we do, 1:14:56.800 --> 1:15:00.479 how the whole system functions, right, which essentially on this 1:15:00.920 --> 1:15:04.960 notion that there is only one game, right that you 1:15:05.000 --> 1:15:07.320 know in the podcast you hear a lot is essentially 1:15:07.479 --> 1:15:09.840 you know, the unspoken aim, And for them it doesn't 1:15:09.840 --> 1:15:11.840 need to be spoken, because as they conceive the world, 1:15:11.880 --> 1:15:15.880 it is the only real game to be played is 1:15:15.960 --> 1:15:20.719 economic growth, right, is just growing the GDP machine, capital growth, 1:15:20.720 --> 1:15:24.360 capital accumulation. They do not entertain the question of what 1:15:24.439 --> 1:15:26.840 kind of a society do we want to build? Their 1:15:26.880 --> 1:15:30.640 main drive is GDP growth, and so everything else is 1:15:30.680 --> 1:15:33.519 just sort of how do you technically do that best? Right, 1:15:33.760 --> 1:15:36.200 how do you improve productivity? How do you grow the 1:15:36.200 --> 1:15:39.000 economy best? They have no concept of like that there's 1:15:39.040 --> 1:15:42.240 any kind of like political battle at the heart of that. 1:15:42.720 --> 1:15:46.200 It's a view of politics without politics. 1:15:46.240 --> 1:15:49.240 Many of the attendees at the New Liberal Action Summit, 1:15:49.880 --> 1:15:55.599 we're aspiring technocrats often self described as such. I think 1:15:55.640 --> 1:16:00.479 the main tendency among these overly online center less liberals 1:16:01.160 --> 1:16:06.400 is to confuse technical knowledge for politics for the ability 1:16:06.439 --> 1:16:09.960 to govern. They display this deep failure to question authority, 1:16:10.280 --> 1:16:14.080 not just in like an authoritarian sense, but the authority 1:16:14.080 --> 1:16:19.160 of what is true or useful knowledge. To the contrarian 1:16:19.360 --> 1:16:23.840 liberal technocrat, something like rent control is not just bad, 1:16:23.880 --> 1:16:27.360 but it's actually evil because it disrupts the market. It 1:16:27.520 --> 1:16:31.799 unnaturally alters supply and demand. And here's all these studies 1:16:31.840 --> 1:16:32.280 proving this. 1:16:32.520 --> 1:16:32.720 Right. 1:16:33.240 --> 1:16:37.680 In this technocratic mode, there's no consideration that policies may 1:16:37.720 --> 1:16:42.000 have trade offs. That yes, rent control might negatively affect 1:16:42.040 --> 1:16:45.439 the class of landlords and for profit developers, it might 1:16:45.479 --> 1:16:49.639 alter supply, but it might be still worth doing as 1:16:49.680 --> 1:16:53.599 a measure to provide relief to tenants, perhaps in addition 1:16:53.760 --> 1:16:57.080 to other efforts to make it cheaper to build housing 1:16:57.160 --> 1:17:00.479 to increase supply. But that sort of appraisal of trade 1:17:00.520 --> 1:17:06.679 offs requires governing beyond a pure commitment to serving the market, 1:17:07.160 --> 1:17:11.600 to just acting on what studies say is true. The 1:17:11.640 --> 1:17:16.360 liberal technocrat thinks that politics is just the application of 1:17:16.760 --> 1:17:21.160 technical knowledge, which of course is a massive limitation on 1:17:21.320 --> 1:17:26.840 what you understand politics as being and what is politically possible. 1:17:27.680 --> 1:17:30.880 History did not end in the nineties. What is politically 1:17:30.920 --> 1:17:36.320 possible changes over time, and politics is about responding to 1:17:36.600 --> 1:17:38.920 different opportunities in history. 1:17:39.320 --> 1:17:41.519 They're missing the part of history which is class struggle. 1:17:41.840 --> 1:17:42.080 Right. 1:17:42.240 --> 1:17:44.439 It's the case that we're in a capitalist world and 1:17:44.439 --> 1:17:50.599 that requires economic competitiveness. You need to maintain competitive production 1:17:51.080 --> 1:17:55.040 on the world stage and internally as well. Totally true, 1:17:55.160 --> 1:17:57.840 but that does not follow that, you know, you just 1:17:58.280 --> 1:18:03.360 pursue that blindly. There are very hugely significant decisions about 1:18:03.400 --> 1:18:07.120 how economic growth proceeds. The biggest one that is just 1:18:07.280 --> 1:18:09.960 completely left out by these people is the notion that 1:18:10.479 --> 1:18:15.160 in growing the economy, the wealth produced by that growth, 1:18:15.840 --> 1:18:20.719 how that's distributed distributive politics. These people, they don't seem 1:18:20.760 --> 1:18:23.000 to conceive of it. The podcast you sent me, I 1:18:23.080 --> 1:18:25.760 think he literally he says something like, you know, the 1:18:25.800 --> 1:18:29.439 biggest liberal struggle is that there is no struggle, like 1:18:29.479 --> 1:18:32.400 it literally just conceives the world as like there aren't 1:18:32.439 --> 1:18:36.880 really any problems. Things are fine. There's big citation needed 1:18:36.880 --> 1:18:38.519 on that one. He's just sort of like, yeah, things 1:18:38.520 --> 1:18:41.599 are things are fine. If you look at it, things 1:18:41.640 --> 1:18:43.800 are fine, which is just. I mean, it's just an 1:18:43.840 --> 1:18:46.679 insane thing to say wages haven't risen in like forty 1:18:46.760 --> 1:18:52.200 fifty years, you know, inequality has exploded, life has stagnated 1:18:52.280 --> 1:18:55.160 for so many people, especially the poorest people, which are 1:18:55.600 --> 1:19:00.479 most workers. So the idea that there is actually a 1:19:00.479 --> 1:19:05.559 realm the politics that revolves around class struggle, around you know, 1:19:05.680 --> 1:19:09.559 how wealth is distributed and how we gear our economic growth. 1:19:10.160 --> 1:19:13.320 To them, that's a separate category. And so their entire 1:19:13.360 --> 1:19:16.479 politics is the politics of technocracy, and in that, you know, 1:19:16.600 --> 1:19:18.960 I'll give it to them. I think that they probably 1:19:19.040 --> 1:19:22.679 are pretty good at the technical expertise of governance stuff. 1:19:22.720 --> 1:19:25.639 I mean, one would expect Liberalism has been in power 1:19:25.720 --> 1:19:28.760 in the United States for most of its history, so yeah, 1:19:28.800 --> 1:19:31.040 I would expect that they would be good at technical expertise. 1:19:31.200 --> 1:19:33.760 Their critique is not that they don't know what they're doing. 1:19:33.800 --> 1:19:39.280 It's that they have totally jettisoned politics, the deciding what 1:19:39.479 --> 1:19:40.960 do you do with that expertise? 1:19:41.200 --> 1:19:42.439 How do you gear the. 1:19:42.400 --> 1:19:45.679 Economy, how do you consciously control where it's going, how 1:19:45.720 --> 1:19:50.800 distribution happens, Who is empowered in government and in the economy. Right, 1:19:51.280 --> 1:19:54.000 this is all to discuss class, right, which these people 1:19:54.320 --> 1:19:55.200 basically never do. 1:19:56.040 --> 1:20:00.800 This limited view of what politics is then determines what 1:20:00.960 --> 1:20:05.080 the neoliberal technocrat thinks is worth focusing on and what 1:20:05.120 --> 1:20:09.640 they view as being impossible, like how they view Medicare 1:20:09.680 --> 1:20:14.000 for all as this impossible goal, whether that's because they 1:20:14.040 --> 1:20:17.439 think voters will never support switching away from private health care, 1:20:17.880 --> 1:20:21.559 or that a single payer healthcare system might even hurt 1:20:21.560 --> 1:20:24.080 the economy and therefore we should oppose it. 1:20:24.640 --> 1:20:26.519 Their extremely narrow view of. 1:20:26.479 --> 1:20:30.400 What is politically possible is the main reason why this 1:20:30.479 --> 1:20:35.720 sort of young new liberal organization will never succeed in 1:20:35.840 --> 1:20:40.920 rivaling DSAY because the whole better things aren't possible mentality 1:20:41.400 --> 1:20:44.200 makes it really hard to attract young people to your cause, 1:20:44.640 --> 1:20:48.639 especially young people who are struggling. No, we can't pass 1:20:48.960 --> 1:20:51.960 Medicare for all because x Y reason, a rent freeze 1:20:52.040 --> 1:20:55.439 is actually evil because x Y reason. I don't know 1:20:55.560 --> 1:20:58.360 how that kind of messaging is going to attract anyone 1:20:58.920 --> 1:21:04.120 except fellow aspiring technocrats, which, yeah, that is basically the 1:21:04.280 --> 1:21:09.719 entire makeup of CNL as an organization. After the summit, 1:21:10.320 --> 1:21:15.120 an elected member of cnl's leadership Steering Committee got drunk 1:21:15.160 --> 1:21:19.639 at the bar and argued that child outcomes are better 1:21:20.080 --> 1:21:25.719 when certain types of fathers are incarcerated because some study 1:21:26.120 --> 1:21:29.360 proved that the type of father who gets charged with 1:21:29.400 --> 1:21:33.240 the crime would be a bad influence on his kids. 1:21:33.600 --> 1:21:36.639 A commands of the third ring. 1:21:37.640 --> 1:21:43.640 That moment was very emblematic for this whole political project. 1:21:44.280 --> 1:21:48.440 This person was so delighted in their own contrarian commitment 1:21:48.560 --> 1:21:53.840 to cold, emotionless, uncomfortable truths that may run counter to 1:21:53.880 --> 1:21:59.240 what's socially accepted. Their little knowing smirk, fully aware that 1:21:59.640 --> 1:22:03.720 what this saying is morally detestable, while self assured in 1:22:03.800 --> 1:22:06.479 appealing to the authority of technical knowledge. 1:22:06.560 --> 1:22:06.720 Right. 1:22:06.760 --> 1:22:09.960 This tendency to fall back on the pretext that a 1:22:10.120 --> 1:22:16.040 study proved such a controversial fact, while willfully ignoring that 1:22:16.080 --> 1:22:19.880 there may be alternative solutions to the base problem here. 1:22:20.479 --> 1:22:26.320 When your main political solution to social problems is just incarceration, 1:22:26.880 --> 1:22:32.479 then you have lost. Your politics have failed. That's Globecon 1:22:32.800 --> 1:22:36.240 twenty twenty six, next episode, I'll be doing a deeper 1:22:36.320 --> 1:22:55.559 dive into neoliberal technocracy as a counter to rising populism. 1:22:55.640 --> 1:22:58.759 Welcome back to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. 1:22:59.439 --> 1:23:04.040 Last episod eisode I detailed my experience at globecon twenty 1:23:04.160 --> 1:23:08.720 twenty six, or the New Liberal Action Summit, a three 1:23:08.760 --> 1:23:12.679 day convention for young liberal professionals to socialize and listen 1:23:12.720 --> 1:23:17.960 to panels about zoning reform, energy policy, and broad based taxes. 1:23:18.400 --> 1:23:21.640 The summit is put on by a nonprofit called the 1:23:21.800 --> 1:23:27.320 Center for New Liberalism, a digital advocacy organization that promotes 1:23:27.479 --> 1:23:32.720 center left policies and neoliberal economics. The Center for New 1:23:32.760 --> 1:23:37.320 Liberalism or CNL, basically started as a group of policy 1:23:37.439 --> 1:23:42.280 wonks on Reddit and Twitter making political memes during Trump's 1:23:42.320 --> 1:23:46.880 first term, but in twenty twenty, CNL was brought into 1:23:47.080 --> 1:23:52.599 the clintonite think tank, the Progressive Policy Institute. Since then, 1:23:52.960 --> 1:23:56.720 CNL has been doing yearly summits and more IRL political 1:23:56.760 --> 1:24:00.000 engagement in hopes of filling in the role of something 1:24:00.160 --> 1:24:05.960 like the DSA but for more technocratically inlined moderate young Libs. 1:24:07.040 --> 1:24:10.880 The twenty twenty six New Liberal Action Summit took place 1:24:11.000 --> 1:24:15.200 in the backdrop of an ascendant democratic socialist and left 1:24:15.200 --> 1:24:20.560 wing populist movement winning congressional primaries in New York, Pennsylvania, Colorado, 1:24:21.040 --> 1:24:26.320 and now Michigan, beating the more moderate establishment type candidates. 1:24:27.160 --> 1:24:31.200 A few days before the Summit in DC. The New 1:24:31.280 --> 1:24:36.680 Liberal Podcast released an episode about the current crisis of 1:24:36.840 --> 1:24:42.839 Liberalism where CNL co founder Jeremiah Johnson talks about why 1:24:42.960 --> 1:24:47.840 he thinks people are quote abandoning the idea that liberalism 1:24:48.000 --> 1:24:52.280 can help them and are turning to populism, whether from 1:24:52.400 --> 1:24:53.679 the right or the left. 1:24:54.520 --> 1:24:59.360 The clear trend over time is that we are getting 1:24:59.400 --> 1:25:05.840 more and more are extremely progressive members of Congress, representatives, etc. 1:25:07.680 --> 1:25:11.360 That we are getting more socialists and more DSA aligned candidates, 1:25:11.880 --> 1:25:16.280 and that the far left is simply out organizing and 1:25:16.439 --> 1:25:20.760 out hustling the moderate wing of the party or the 1:25:20.800 --> 1:25:23.120 liberal wing of the party, however you'd like to say it, 1:25:24.720 --> 1:25:25.679 and this is troubling. 1:25:26.640 --> 1:25:31.080 Jeremiah Johnson cites the Mamdani DSA sweep in New York 1:25:31.240 --> 1:25:35.600 last June, where socialist candidates beat establishment incumbents, and this 1:25:35.680 --> 1:25:39.479 episode came out about a month before the populist wins 1:25:39.479 --> 1:25:43.439 in the Michigan Democratic primary. But Johnson does bring up 1:25:43.520 --> 1:25:49.360 the Colorado primary, where one of cnl's favorite politicians, Senator 1:25:49.479 --> 1:25:54.200 Michael Bennett, just lost his primary for Colorado governor to 1:25:54.320 --> 1:25:59.320 the state attorney general, who, to quote Johnson quote frankly, 1:25:59.520 --> 1:26:03.759 was not even necessarily more progressive than him, but simply 1:26:04.000 --> 1:26:07.559 rode the wave of I'm the popular, stanty establishment, I'm 1:26:07.560 --> 1:26:08.880 more angry, etc. 1:26:09.360 --> 1:26:09.599 Etc. 1:26:10.840 --> 1:26:14.720 Michael Bennett is an interesting case. In twenty twenty, he 1:26:14.800 --> 1:26:18.760 ran for president as like the most centrist candidate of 1:26:18.760 --> 1:26:24.200 that entire bunch and only qualified for the first two debates. 1:26:24.240 --> 1:26:26.960 He used to be like one of the least populist 1:26:27.000 --> 1:26:32.520 senators in the country, like a very CNL type politician who, 1:26:32.680 --> 1:26:37.080 weeks after losing his primary bid, opened the New Liberal 1:26:37.080 --> 1:26:40.640 Actions summit with a forty five minute fireside chat with 1:26:40.760 --> 1:26:46.240 cnl's deputy director Tobin Stone. Senator Bennett's remarks earned a 1:26:46.400 --> 1:26:52.400 very tepid response from the attendees. Bennett blamed the Democratic 1:26:52.439 --> 1:26:56.320 Party for losing to Trump because they had no ideas. 1:26:56.760 --> 1:26:59.919 He talked about the need to build housing and transit 1:27:00.080 --> 1:27:03.559 from a bottom up approach that helps regular people, not 1:27:03.680 --> 1:27:07.280 just those at the top, how his constituents in Colorado 1:27:07.520 --> 1:27:09.880 can't afford to live where they grew up, and how 1:27:10.040 --> 1:27:13.439 people in their late twenties and thirties can't get a 1:27:13.479 --> 1:27:20.040 real job. He often mentioned quote working people and quote affordability, 1:27:20.479 --> 1:27:24.880 and referred to Bernie Sanders as his quote friend, the 1:27:24.920 --> 1:27:29.479 whole talk felt kind of Bernie Light, which was especially 1:27:29.520 --> 1:27:33.479 odd because the summit schedule said that this fireside chat 1:27:33.880 --> 1:27:37.160 was going to focus on the threat of the ascendant 1:27:37.360 --> 1:27:42.120 populist left, but to the extent that Bennett targeted populism, 1:27:42.600 --> 1:27:46.880 it was the Trumpean right wing authoritarian variety. And like, 1:27:46.880 --> 1:27:49.559 don't get me wrong, Michael Bennett is still very much 1:27:49.560 --> 1:27:54.400 a moderate. But if even a long time ultracentrist like 1:27:54.479 --> 1:27:58.640 him feels like he has to make overtures to progressives 1:27:58.720 --> 1:28:02.679 or populists even when he's speaking to the completely wrong audience, 1:28:03.439 --> 1:28:06.920 then the Libs must be really feeling the pressure on 1:28:06.960 --> 1:28:11.759 that New liberal podcast CNL co founder Jeremiah Johnson asked 1:28:11.800 --> 1:28:15.840 his listeners to consider, if things continue on their current course, 1:28:16.200 --> 1:28:19.960 what the socialist movement could look like in ten years. 1:28:20.320 --> 1:28:24.559 But just ask yourself, you know, is this type of 1:28:24.600 --> 1:28:29.479 candidate winning democratic primaries more or less often than they 1:28:29.479 --> 1:28:32.559 were five years ago, than they were ten years ago, 1:28:33.880 --> 1:28:37.599 and five to ten years from now, do you expect 1:28:37.640 --> 1:28:42.120 that they will have more energy or less energy? Because 1:28:42.160 --> 1:28:47.160 I think any honest appraisal of where we are at 1:28:47.240 --> 1:28:51.120 right now is that the socialist wing of the Democratic 1:28:51.200 --> 1:28:56.480 Party has the energy and the momentum. Their organizing infrastructure 1:28:57.120 --> 1:29:01.800 is far better, far more than the moderate or the 1:29:01.840 --> 1:29:06.000 liberal wing of the party. They have more people who 1:29:06.040 --> 1:29:09.080 are out there willing to do the work knocking on doors, 1:29:09.160 --> 1:29:13.600 phone banking, posting on social media. That is where the 1:29:13.920 --> 1:29:17.400 grassroots energy of the Democratic Party is. And we can 1:29:17.439 --> 1:29:19.880 talk about whether or not the voters are there yet, 1:29:19.920 --> 1:29:22.479 but the voters ultimately follow elite opinion. 1:29:23.280 --> 1:29:28.040 Voters are not just mindless sheep that follow elite opinion 1:29:28.479 --> 1:29:31.080 see here the twenty sixteen to twenty twenty four elections. 1:29:31.560 --> 1:29:34.880 They can be influenced by the power of capital, but 1:29:35.320 --> 1:29:39.519 voters do evaluate their material conditions and compare that to 1:29:39.560 --> 1:29:44.040 how different candidates promise to change or not change those 1:29:44.080 --> 1:29:48.719 conditions once in office. There may be an elitist side 1:29:48.720 --> 1:29:53.080 of the academic left, but the unspoken assertion here that 1:29:53.200 --> 1:29:58.080 the DSA is uniquely representative of the elite as opposed 1:29:58.080 --> 1:30:02.920 to the centrist Democrats, who do not represent elite opinion 1:30:03.000 --> 1:30:07.719 and are more in touch with voters. That's patently absurd, 1:30:08.160 --> 1:30:13.960 and cnl's new senior advisor agrees. Here's Greg Schultz, Biden's 1:30:14.000 --> 1:30:18.120 campaign manager and general election strategist who spoke on a 1:30:18.160 --> 1:30:21.679 Globecon panel about winning back Maha voters. 1:30:22.000 --> 1:30:24.600 I think farm the reality is a Democratic Party is 1:30:24.640 --> 1:30:27.720 a self righteous, know at all party, and voters not 1:30:28.120 --> 1:30:29.920 can feel that and they can see it. Do you 1:30:30.000 --> 1:30:32.599 think we know it's better for you and your family 1:30:32.640 --> 1:30:33.360 than put. 1:30:33.240 --> 1:30:35.080 You know it's for you and your advantiate. 1:30:35.600 --> 1:30:39.400 So one is we are increasingly a party of the academical, elite, 1:30:39.680 --> 1:30:42.400 academical fility. So I don't think absolually talk for real 1:30:42.479 --> 1:30:43.960 players understand their real. 1:30:43.800 --> 1:30:49.040 Concern So, while Greg at least admits among friends that 1:30:49.760 --> 1:30:52.799 the Dems are an elite party detached from the concerns 1:30:52.800 --> 1:30:57.040 of voters, CNL co founder and podcast host Jeremiah Johnson 1:30:57.120 --> 1:31:01.320 remains somewhat confused as to why people just don't support 1:31:01.360 --> 1:31:05.639 the smartest policies as defined by him and are instead 1:31:05.840 --> 1:31:07.240 turning to populism. 1:31:07.720 --> 1:31:11.280 Any honest appraisal of where we are at says that 1:31:11.640 --> 1:31:15.160 liberals are losing ground to socialists in the Democratic Party. 1:31:15.640 --> 1:31:18.639 To some degree, the establishment has done this to themselves. 1:31:18.680 --> 1:31:23.200 I think it would be wrong for any analysis to 1:31:23.280 --> 1:31:28.839 leave that out. But having said that, in America, living 1:31:28.880 --> 1:31:30.880 conditions are still quite good. 1:31:31.640 --> 1:31:35.680 Even in his explanation of why liberalism is failing, he 1:31:35.880 --> 1:31:40.920 still insists that things are actually fine. He talks about 1:31:40.960 --> 1:31:44.280 how real median income is quote unquote as high as 1:31:44.320 --> 1:31:48.040 it's ever been, which doesn't actually mean that things are 1:31:48.040 --> 1:31:52.240 going great. It's barely keeping up with inflation. But Johnson 1:31:52.280 --> 1:31:56.479 relies on this narrow batch of macro economic statistics to 1:31:56.800 --> 1:32:02.680 insist that quote America is still throw life is still good. 1:32:03.200 --> 1:32:06.680 Last week I forced Ben Rose Porter, a professor of 1:32:06.680 --> 1:32:10.400 sociology at the City University of New York, to listen 1:32:10.560 --> 1:32:16.000 to this whole Crisis in Liberalism podcast and then discuss 1:32:16.080 --> 1:32:16.759 his thoughts. 1:32:17.360 --> 1:32:20.800 The mainstream capitalist order, which is to say, the liberal 1:32:20.960 --> 1:32:25.879 order as its political correlate is breaking down, is failing, 1:32:26.080 --> 1:32:29.200 so you would expect to see if political moves away 1:32:29.200 --> 1:32:34.400 from it. There's a very famous graph of worker compensation 1:32:34.840 --> 1:32:38.400 to productivity. So worker compensation that's wages, basically how much 1:32:38.439 --> 1:32:42.120 of profits more or less is going to the workers. Right, 1:32:42.400 --> 1:32:47.120 So how much are workers compensated? Tracked with productivity, which 1:32:47.160 --> 1:32:51.200 is to say, how much are firms producing relative to inputs? Right, 1:32:51.280 --> 1:32:54.840 input to output productivity over time, and this is over 1:32:54.920 --> 1:32:58.120 the course of the twentieth century. And what you see 1:32:58.160 --> 1:33:02.000 in that graph is that for basically the whole of 1:33:02.040 --> 1:33:08.400 the twentieth century, wages worker compensation tracks very closely with productivity. 1:33:08.560 --> 1:33:13.080 So as firms industries produce more and more stuff, are 1:33:13.080 --> 1:33:16.200 more and more efficiently producing, are creating more and more wealth, 1:33:16.840 --> 1:33:19.640 workers wages are going up and keeping pace with that. 1:33:19.760 --> 1:33:25.840 So the share of wealth between the owning classes, the bourgeois, 1:33:26.160 --> 1:33:28.880 and the workers is staying about level. 1:33:29.000 --> 1:33:29.200 Right. 1:33:29.520 --> 1:33:32.000 As there's more made, workers are getting some of that, right, 1:33:32.040 --> 1:33:35.960 and they're getting an even piece. And around eighty eighty one, 1:33:36.760 --> 1:33:38.720 you know the collapse of the labor movement in the 1:33:38.720 --> 1:33:44.720 seventies and especially with Reagan. Right, you see worker compensation flatline, 1:33:44.760 --> 1:33:48.720 and it basically has been inert since the eighties. Since 1:33:48.760 --> 1:33:52.439 the beginning of the eighties, productivity has continued to go 1:33:52.640 --> 1:33:55.880 up about the same rate. So we have been producing 1:33:56.200 --> 1:33:59.040 more and more wealth in this country. Right, This is 1:33:59.040 --> 1:34:02.880 what capital's production does. It's basically almost always growing in productivity. Right, 1:34:03.120 --> 1:34:05.320 We've been producing more and more wealth, and the share 1:34:05.439 --> 1:34:10.640 of that wealth that the workers get has flatlined. You 1:34:10.680 --> 1:34:15.200 cannot spin that as things are basically fine. That has 1:34:15.280 --> 1:34:18.880 all kinds of of of major effects one of the 1:34:18.880 --> 1:34:22.280 big ones is, you know, inequality. Even if workers are 1:34:22.800 --> 1:34:27.800 not being paid starvation wages, living in that profoundly and 1:34:27.840 --> 1:34:33.120 a profoundly inequal society has all kinds of effects socially speaking, right, 1:34:33.479 --> 1:34:35.800 It does for the middle classes too, people who are 1:34:36.200 --> 1:34:38.400 you know, comfortable, who are doing well, who have who 1:34:38.400 --> 1:34:41.360 have captured a bit of that growth, because it gets 1:34:41.360 --> 1:34:43.040 worse the further you go down the line. That when 1:34:43.080 --> 1:34:45.960 you look at like wages for the lowest paid workers, 1:34:45.960 --> 1:34:49.439 they've often even decreased, right, But even for those middle 1:34:49.479 --> 1:34:53.880 class professionals and such, who may very well be comfortable, 1:34:54.360 --> 1:34:57.120 and many of them, we should stress, are not. I 1:34:57.120 --> 1:34:58.760 think that when you go through and you look at 1:34:58.800 --> 1:35:01.400 the data, there's a lo lot of indicators of all 1:35:01.479 --> 1:35:03.720 kinds of ways in which people might not be comfortable. 1:35:03.920 --> 1:35:06.120 But even those that are comfortable, you know, they still 1:35:06.160 --> 1:35:08.400 have to live in a society that is profoundly unequal. 1:35:08.560 --> 1:35:12.960 That is letting the bottom strata just rot, right, that 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:16.960 is just letting like people die on the streets. That 1:35:17.280 --> 1:35:18.040 has an effect. 1:35:18.280 --> 1:35:18.880 Anyone with a. 1:35:19.280 --> 1:35:22.519 Soul with a conscience is you know, affected by that. 1:35:23.520 --> 1:35:27.800 Having foreclosed the idea that there is anything economically or 1:35:27.840 --> 1:35:32.439 structurally wrong with society. Jeremiah Johnson is left to conclude 1:35:32.760 --> 1:35:37.080 that this quote crisis in liberalism appears to be a 1:35:37.200 --> 1:35:43.799 crisis of confidence, a crisis of storytelling. So to Johnson, 1:35:43.880 --> 1:35:48.439 it's simply that the liberal story is no longer as 1:35:48.520 --> 1:35:54.959 compelling as the alternative populist narratives. Johnson mentions two potential 1:35:55.000 --> 1:35:58.600 explanations for liberalism's decline, one coming from the right, the 1:35:58.640 --> 1:36:02.480 other from the left, neither of which he finds convincing. 1:36:03.240 --> 1:36:06.760 Johnson says that the right wing is promoting a cultural 1:36:06.840 --> 1:36:11.599 explanation for liberalism's decline, arguing that liberals have moved too 1:36:11.640 --> 1:36:15.160 far to the left on cultural issues and lost voters, 1:36:15.760 --> 1:36:21.560 while the left wing offers a quote unquote materialist explanation, claiming. 1:36:21.439 --> 1:36:25.240 Living conditions have actually deteriorated, and your statistics do not 1:36:25.400 --> 1:36:28.799 capture this, and people can tell when their lives are getting, 1:36:29.160 --> 1:36:32.639 you know, materially worse. You know, when things cost too 1:36:32.680 --> 1:36:35.400 much and they don't have as much income, and that 1:36:35.560 --> 1:36:39.200 is why people turn away from liberalism towards alternate explanations. 1:36:40.120 --> 1:36:43.680 Of course, in this entire fifty two minutes of podcast, 1:36:44.600 --> 1:36:49.040 Johnson never talks about like wealth inequality, as a real 1:36:49.200 --> 1:36:54.680 problem in society because someone from his self described neoliberal 1:36:54.760 --> 1:36:59.280 economic worldview just does not believe that skyrocketing wealth inequality 1:36:59.439 --> 1:37:02.960 is actually a real problem in and of itself. But 1:37:03.040 --> 1:37:06.920 then he has to pretend to be confused as to 1:37:06.960 --> 1:37:10.520 why more and more people are falling for this materialist 1:37:10.560 --> 1:37:13.960 explanation of why there's a crisis in liberalism and why 1:37:13.960 --> 1:37:17.519 people are not convinced by the quote unquote story that 1:37:17.640 --> 1:37:22.200 liberalism is telling them with macroeconomic statistics. You know, the 1:37:22.280 --> 1:37:26.080 stock market is booming, Unemployment is low. Things like that 1:37:26.160 --> 1:37:31.719 don't actually indicate what types of jobs are available. Service 1:37:31.760 --> 1:37:35.880 industry or gig economy. Work is crushing and offers no 1:37:36.200 --> 1:37:40.280 path for a sustainable future. Buying a house seems impossible. 1:37:40.640 --> 1:37:44.800 Rent keeps skyrocketing, energy costs are ballooning, all while the 1:37:44.880 --> 1:37:49.719 rich get even richer. Even if, on average, the median 1:37:49.800 --> 1:37:53.040 wage has kept up with inflation at about three point 1:37:53.120 --> 1:37:56.280 five percent per year, there are, of course many people 1:37:56.360 --> 1:38:00.120 who are not seeing that wage growth, and even if 1:38:00.160 --> 1:38:02.719 they are, that three point five percent is far below 1:38:03.320 --> 1:38:05.840 the thirty percent rise in the price of groceries over 1:38:05.840 --> 1:38:08.599 the past few years, or the twenty five percent jump 1:38:08.640 --> 1:38:12.639 in residential electricity rates, and of course minimum wage workers 1:38:12.680 --> 1:38:16.559 are not keeping up with inflation, let alone the massive 1:38:16.600 --> 1:38:21.040 bumps in housing, education, and healthcare costs. A New York 1:38:21.080 --> 1:38:24.519 Times poll from last May showed that among Democrats and 1:38:24.720 --> 1:38:30.160 Democrat leaning voters, only five percent said the economic conditions 1:38:30.200 --> 1:38:35.559 were good or excellent. Eighty eight percent said the economic 1:38:35.600 --> 1:38:39.440 system in this country is generally unfair to most Americans. 1:38:40.000 --> 1:38:43.639 Sixty three percent said that the political and economic system 1:38:43.760 --> 1:38:46.080 needs major changes, and twenty percent sid it needs to 1:38:46.080 --> 1:38:49.799 be torn down completely. But Johnson would have you believe 1:38:49.880 --> 1:38:56.080 that the materialist explanation is without merit because DSA candidates 1:38:56.120 --> 1:38:59.200 actually get a lot of support from middle class workers. 1:39:00.240 --> 1:39:06.479 The people who tend most to be sympathetic to this 1:39:06.600 --> 1:39:11.760 kind of leftist story tend to be the people with 1:39:12.040 --> 1:39:18.200 the most education and the highest incomes. If you look at, 1:39:18.479 --> 1:39:23.240 you know, the demographics of Zorn Mamdani's win in New York, 1:39:24.080 --> 1:39:28.320 he won the highest income brackets. And this is despite 1:39:28.439 --> 1:39:31.479 you know, having kind of a eat the rich kind 1:39:31.479 --> 1:39:37.920 of persona, and very very DSA aligned politics. And this 1:39:38.080 --> 1:39:40.760 makes me doubt the materialist explanation. 1:39:42.080 --> 1:39:46.800 As we discussed last episode, this is just patently untrue. 1:39:47.720 --> 1:39:51.479 In both the Democratic primary and the general election, former 1:39:51.520 --> 1:39:56.000 Governor Andrew Cuomo performed best in the city's highest income 1:39:56.040 --> 1:39:59.479 districts and with voters who made over two hundred thousand 1:39:59.520 --> 1:40:00.240 dollars a year. 1:40:00.960 --> 1:40:02.639 But no, it is actually the. 1:40:02.720 --> 1:40:07.920 DSA who are truly representative of the elite, and the 1:40:08.080 --> 1:40:11.320 richest of the rich are Zorn's main base of support. 1:40:12.080 --> 1:40:15.400 Johnson needs that to be true because, as we will 1:40:15.479 --> 1:40:20.439 learn after this ad break, he contends that liberalism might 1:40:20.520 --> 1:40:36.920 actually be suffering from its own success. Welcome Back, CNL 1:40:37.080 --> 1:40:42.599 co founder and new Liberal podcast host Jeremiah Johnson doesn't 1:40:42.720 --> 1:40:48.200 buy into either of the populist explanations for liberalism's decline, 1:40:48.560 --> 1:40:51.360 the cultural one pushed by the right or the materialist 1:40:51.400 --> 1:40:55.280 one argued by the left. Johnson thinks that, if anything, 1:40:55.800 --> 1:41:00.000 these explanations should be reversed. He discounts the right way 1:41:00.160 --> 1:41:05.360 a cultural explanation because the places where those progressive cultural 1:41:05.400 --> 1:41:09.200 advances have gone the farthest are in deep blue districts 1:41:09.280 --> 1:41:12.760 that are still deep blue. And as for the materialist 1:41:12.840 --> 1:41:14.880 story told by the left. 1:41:14.680 --> 1:41:18.280 If you look at the places that have actually suffered 1:41:18.360 --> 1:41:21.000 potentially under the. 1:41:22.840 --> 1:41:23.839 Liberal era. 1:41:25.120 --> 1:41:28.320 Of the last forty to fifty years. I think the 1:41:28.360 --> 1:41:31.840 places you could most point to authentically, that you could 1:41:31.840 --> 1:41:35.120 make the strongest case for would be the kind of 1:41:35.880 --> 1:41:41.120 rust belt towns, small towns in Ohio and Pennsylvania and 1:41:41.200 --> 1:41:46.880 Michigan and so forth, where the decline of manufacturing, you know, 1:41:46.920 --> 1:41:49.479 the decline of the auto industry or of the steel 1:41:49.520 --> 1:41:55.160 industry or whatever may have hollowed out the local economy. Now, 1:41:55.200 --> 1:41:59.400 this is a very left leaning explanation, but the people 1:41:59.800 --> 1:42:05.760 in those towns have not bought into the left explanation. 1:42:05.880 --> 1:42:10.920 They've turned into Republicans, is the thing. You know, the 1:42:11.720 --> 1:42:18.320 materialist argument pushed by the left is actually most applicable 1:42:18.360 --> 1:42:20.479 to the areas that now vote for Donald Trump. 1:42:21.080 --> 1:42:25.519 Yeah, that's the whole point. It's the economy idiot just 1:42:25.920 --> 1:42:31.640 flatly dismissing any materialist analysis on the basis that such analysis, 1:42:31.720 --> 1:42:35.880 as argued by the left is actually even more applicable 1:42:36.360 --> 1:42:39.080 in places that are voting for Trump rather than Democrats 1:42:39.520 --> 1:42:43.920 is completely missing the entire point of the left's analysis. 1:42:44.720 --> 1:42:48.680 Trump ran as a populist, a right wing populist, But 1:42:49.280 --> 1:42:52.719 that is like evidence for what the left is arguing. 1:42:53.400 --> 1:42:57.679 That is the left's explanation why those places which used 1:42:57.720 --> 1:43:02.000 to be Democrat working class union. Why they have gone 1:43:02.040 --> 1:43:07.080 to Trump It's because he's offering a populist solution. Now, 1:43:07.160 --> 1:43:10.600 is Trump's right wing popular solution actually going to be 1:43:10.720 --> 1:43:15.200 a real solution to the base problems? No, because instead 1:43:15.200 --> 1:43:18.000 he's gonna do economic nationalism. He's gonna do tariffs, He's 1:43:18.000 --> 1:43:22.120 gonna scapegoat immigrants as the reason for why housing is expensive, 1:43:22.320 --> 1:43:25.680 why the job market sucks. So he is offering a 1:43:25.720 --> 1:43:31.120 populist solution, but not a good solution. While campaigning, he 1:43:31.360 --> 1:43:35.360 was addressing the poor economic conditions, price of eggs, as 1:43:35.439 --> 1:43:39.839 opposed to the liberal assertion that things are great actually 1:43:40.439 --> 1:43:44.160 or something as tone deaf as Bidenomics is working. 1:43:44.560 --> 1:43:47.120 Here's a better start, like a better explanation for that 1:43:47.280 --> 1:43:50.040 is just paying attention to the actual history. I'm from 1:43:50.080 --> 1:43:53.240 the South, right, the South is so much of it 1:43:53.320 --> 1:43:57.040 is the core for you know, a kind of reactionary cultural, 1:43:57.200 --> 1:43:59.960 right wing cultural politics. The South is also where the 1:44:00.000 --> 1:44:04.160 the labor movement, the unions were just decimated. I mean 1:44:04.400 --> 1:44:09.200 it's brutal there. Union densities is in the shitter and 1:44:09.240 --> 1:44:12.160 has been for a while. And so one way of 1:44:12.200 --> 1:44:15.040 explaining this is like, yeah, people in these places. People 1:44:15.040 --> 1:44:19.480 in the South often gravitate towards a kind of cultural reactionary, 1:44:19.960 --> 1:44:24.639 confused politics precisely because there's no other option. They don't 1:44:24.640 --> 1:44:28.439 have a kind of coherent socialist project, and so they 1:44:28.760 --> 1:44:32.920 go towards these other things where there's more of a 1:44:33.040 --> 1:44:36.360 labor movement, where it has held on to some degree 1:44:36.840 --> 1:44:41.400 somewhere like New York, for instance, there is an alternative route, right, 1:44:41.640 --> 1:44:43.240 and it took us a while to get there. You know, 1:44:43.600 --> 1:44:47.000 this is a relatively new trend of the rise in socialism. 1:44:47.000 --> 1:44:50.080 But I don't know whether this is like cynical or 1:44:50.120 --> 1:44:53.800 if he just genuinely does not conceive of how well, yeah, 1:44:53.880 --> 1:44:57.680 it may be that these these are real material stressors 1:44:57.680 --> 1:45:02.240 and pressures that are then in interpreted through cultural lenses 1:45:02.360 --> 1:45:04.400 for all sorts of reasons. But that the idea that 1:45:04.439 --> 1:45:06.360 it must be one or the other, that if well, 1:45:06.400 --> 1:45:09.240 if these if people favor a cultural explanation, then there 1:45:09.320 --> 1:45:12.639 must not be material problems. It is also the whole 1:45:12.640 --> 1:45:14.960 thing is just fraught. I mean, like the idea that 1:45:15.080 --> 1:45:18.120 the only place is suffering from de industrialization or you know, 1:45:18.200 --> 1:45:22.360 dried up economies are just republican states and cities that's 1:45:22.400 --> 1:45:25.360 just not true in any sense. There are lots of 1:45:25.400 --> 1:45:28.840 places where a dying economy is responded to with very 1:45:28.880 --> 1:45:33.360 left materialist analyzes and nor also the idea that again 1:45:33.600 --> 1:45:37.360 i mean just very hand wavy, like just citation needed, 1:45:37.560 --> 1:45:40.720 we're moving pack things are fine outside of like a 1:45:40.800 --> 1:45:44.960 limited de industrialized red states, you know, where things maybe 1:45:45.040 --> 1:45:48.240 are a little bad, everything else is fine. Like is 1:45:48.760 --> 1:45:52.880 the idea that in major coastal cities everything's fine and 1:45:52.920 --> 1:45:56.479 just completely ignores that, like service workers in the lowest 1:45:56.520 --> 1:45:59.720 rungs of workers in these places are being crushed right now, 1:45:59.760 --> 1:46:02.519 many of which have to then leave the cities they're in. 1:46:02.960 --> 1:46:05.760 And then you know, people who may be able to 1:46:05.920 --> 1:46:10.600 maintain a comfortable income and comfortable there is you know, 1:46:10.760 --> 1:46:12.599 a little strained, I mean. 1:46:12.720 --> 1:46:14.040 Gig work is on the rise. 1:46:14.080 --> 1:46:17.120 People are having to work all sorts of strange hours 1:46:17.120 --> 1:46:20.840 that beck and call of their employers. Alienation from their 1:46:20.920 --> 1:46:24.000 kinds of work and the ability to choose one's job 1:46:24.720 --> 1:46:28.400 is really profoundly wrong. Incomes for college graduates have dropped, 1:46:28.400 --> 1:46:30.840 so professionals, while they may be able to maintain a 1:46:30.920 --> 1:46:34.960 somewhat comfortable income, are often still declining in that capacity. 1:46:35.680 --> 1:46:39.439 Enfranchisement in people's worlds, both in their economic world and 1:46:39.479 --> 1:46:42.040 in saying how they labor, how they work, but also 1:46:42.120 --> 1:46:44.280 in the wider political world in getting a say in 1:46:44.360 --> 1:46:48.200 how government is happening. People are feel totally disenfranchised. They 1:46:48.240 --> 1:46:51.200 are disenfranchised from those things. So it's just a very 1:46:51.360 --> 1:46:55.400 thin patina of things are fine that falls apart upon 1:46:55.439 --> 1:46:59.240 any examination. Ironically, these people represent the whole project of 1:46:59.560 --> 1:47:03.720 things are fine because we maintain full control. The other 1:47:03.760 --> 1:47:05.960 side of the coin of things are fine is we 1:47:06.080 --> 1:47:09.919 need not empower anyone else, just let us the technical 1:47:09.960 --> 1:47:11.519 experts run everything. 1:47:12.720 --> 1:47:18.000 So instead of a cultural explanation or a materialist explanation 1:47:18.160 --> 1:47:22.160 for the current crisis in liberalism, the Center for New 1:47:22.160 --> 1:47:27.880 Liberalism seems to kind of embrace this sort of liberal affluenza, 1:47:27.960 --> 1:47:33.120 as if people are actually suffering from affluence. For this, 1:47:33.400 --> 1:47:35.960 Johnson turns to Francis Fukuyama. 1:47:36.479 --> 1:47:39.360 Fukuyama, in his book The End of History in the 1:47:39.439 --> 1:47:47.679 Last Man very famously said that he believed man needs 1:47:48.000 --> 1:47:53.120 struggle essentially. You know, in the twentieth century we got 1:47:53.560 --> 1:47:57.320 the great struggles of World War I and the Great Depression, 1:47:57.520 --> 1:48:02.000 World War II, and then the Cold War and liberalism 1:48:02.120 --> 1:48:06.759 flourished under these conditions because it had an identifiable enemy 1:48:06.840 --> 1:48:09.840 to fight. It had a struggle that you know, men 1:48:09.880 --> 1:48:13.280 and women could throw themselves into. You know, that we 1:48:13.320 --> 1:48:17.640 could defeat the Nazis, we could defeat the communists. And 1:48:17.680 --> 1:48:21.960 then he predicted that if history really did end in 1:48:22.040 --> 1:48:27.320 air quotes, that men might struggle just for the sake 1:48:27.360 --> 1:48:32.000 of struggle. They would struggle against the very system that 1:48:32.120 --> 1:48:36.240 created this prosperity, just for the sake of having something 1:48:36.320 --> 1:48:40.160 to feel, of having something to feel useful for. 1:48:40.960 --> 1:48:45.599 The idea is, now that liberalism has conquered the globe, 1:48:46.200 --> 1:48:52.320 people don't actually require anything materially different, but will still 1:48:52.560 --> 1:48:57.280 desire for self worth, dignity, and recognition. This is a 1:48:57.320 --> 1:49:01.240 sort of post modern crisis of a struggle for meaning, 1:49:01.720 --> 1:49:05.040 totally divorced from a materialist desire. 1:49:05.920 --> 1:49:11.120 But Fukuyama argues that while modern liberal democracies can provide 1:49:11.200 --> 1:49:16.200 peace and material wealth, they leave people feeling alienated by 1:49:17.880 --> 1:49:22.439 not delivering that sense of higher purpose, and that that 1:49:22.680 --> 1:49:30.360 is what leads people to nationalism or populism or identity politics, 1:49:31.160 --> 1:49:34.840 because people want some sort of recognition. 1:49:35.520 --> 1:49:41.200 To Johnson, ultimately, liberalism is struggling because quote there is 1:49:41.479 --> 1:49:43.360 no more great struggle. 1:49:44.080 --> 1:49:46.599 Yeah, there is no real struggle. That this is all 1:49:46.600 --> 1:49:49.160 made up. It's all smoke and mirrors, like everybody's fine. 1:49:49.520 --> 1:49:51.879 I mean, if you pursue it to its logical conclusion. 1:49:51.920 --> 1:49:55.040 It's the most condescending politics there is. It's literally just 1:49:55.320 --> 1:49:58.280 you don't really have problems. You are just rebelling against 1:49:58.360 --> 1:50:00.360 us because things are so good and you don't have 1:50:00.479 --> 1:50:03.160 meaning other other than opposing us. It literally I was 1:50:03.200 --> 1:50:04.880 listening to that and I was like, this sounds like 1:50:05.000 --> 1:50:08.320 bourgeois revolutions of early modernity, right, this is like how 1:50:08.360 --> 1:50:12.360 the monarchy reacted. So many times you get like, you know, 1:50:12.520 --> 1:50:15.479 absolute monarchs just saying like, well, the people there aren't 1:50:15.520 --> 1:50:19.160 really problems. You're fine. It's it's fine to chill out. 1:50:18.960 --> 1:50:20.960 Like I'm your king. We're doing fine. 1:50:21.200 --> 1:50:23.960 It's all good, right, And of course that worked out 1:50:24.120 --> 1:50:27.320 brilliantly for them. Yeah, it's the same politics. It's just well, 1:50:27.320 --> 1:50:30.840 there's basically no struggle. Are people are mad because you 1:50:30.880 --> 1:50:35.280 know they don't have enough meaning? I just I don't 1:50:35.320 --> 1:50:36.439 know how that plays out to anyone. 1:50:36.520 --> 1:50:37.360 Is insane to me. 1:50:37.800 --> 1:50:40.280 The idea that you know, all of the struggle and 1:50:40.360 --> 1:50:43.360 strife in the world today is just it's not real. 1:50:43.760 --> 1:50:48.520 It's somehow made up pretend we're all doing it's ridiculous. 1:50:49.600 --> 1:50:55.479 Johnson's contention is that things just got so good under 1:50:55.720 --> 1:51:00.320 neoliberal technocracy that it created a postmodern crisis of meaning, 1:51:00.400 --> 1:51:04.720 resulting in people struggling against the very system that provides 1:51:04.760 --> 1:51:08.920 for them to gain a new sense of purpose, basically 1:51:09.400 --> 1:51:14.280 self sabotaging by electing bad populist candidates, which then do 1:51:14.479 --> 1:51:19.600 make economic conditions worse. But then Johnson's solution to this 1:51:19.760 --> 1:51:24.040 problem is just to put neoliberal technocrats back in power, 1:51:24.800 --> 1:51:28.439 but this time be even more cynical and also more 1:51:28.680 --> 1:51:33.519 patriotic in contrast to the United States. Johnson points to 1:51:33.640 --> 1:51:38.640 Canada as an example of where liberalism is currently succeeding, 1:51:39.040 --> 1:51:44.480 and he credits this to quote technocratic ability, cynical maneuvering, 1:51:44.840 --> 1:51:51.439 and liberal nationalism, adding quote we need technocrats more than ever. 1:51:52.720 --> 1:51:56.280 I introduced the idea last episode that one of the 1:51:56.320 --> 1:52:00.519 main tendencies among these so called new liberals is the 1:52:00.560 --> 1:52:05.800 belief that politics is just the application of technical knowledge, 1:52:06.439 --> 1:52:10.640 you know, conflating having technical knowledge with the ability to 1:52:10.840 --> 1:52:14.800 govern well and do decision making at the highest level. 1:52:15.120 --> 1:52:18.160 A view of politics without politics. 1:52:18.640 --> 1:52:22.280 The technocratic point of view sort of works like this. 1:52:22.400 --> 1:52:25.920 It understands that like, okay, there's technical expertise. Let's say 1:52:25.920 --> 1:52:29.400 you're trying to you know, reform tax policy. Tax policy 1:52:29.479 --> 1:52:32.439 is very complex. The way that taxes work, the way 1:52:32.439 --> 1:52:35.240 that you know, government revenues work is very complex. So 1:52:35.520 --> 1:52:37.880 if you're going to rearrange that, yeah, you are going 1:52:37.920 --> 1:52:40.000 to need some people who understand how that work. Who 1:52:40.040 --> 1:52:43.439 are intellectuals, you know, who have the technical knowledge required 1:52:43.680 --> 1:52:47.600 to make your policies work. That's a crucial part of 1:52:47.640 --> 1:52:52.080 any politics. You absolutely need that. Any political faction that 1:52:52.080 --> 1:52:55.600 seeks to have a chance of successful governance needs a 1:52:55.680 --> 1:52:59.719 level of technical expertise. Absolutely, But that is an entirely 1:52:59.760 --> 1:53:04.599 set question from what does one choose to do? Your 1:53:04.720 --> 1:53:08.720 technical expertise is a key part to successfully doing what 1:53:08.760 --> 1:53:12.559 you set out to do. But politics at the highest levels, 1:53:12.760 --> 1:53:15.559 right at the level of like party line of like 1:53:15.600 --> 1:53:19.960 what party strategy is about? What are you trying to do? 1:53:20.640 --> 1:53:28.240 The technocratic view basically thinks that that question is already 1:53:28.280 --> 1:53:31.880 decided to them. It's obvious what you should do. What 1:53:31.920 --> 1:53:35.519 you should do is grow the economy, maximize economic growth, 1:53:35.640 --> 1:53:38.760 because in their view, that's good for everybody. You know, 1:53:39.000 --> 1:53:41.679 rising tide lifts soul boats, that's good for everybody. There 1:53:41.840 --> 1:53:44.120 is no conflict here, and so if there is no 1:53:44.240 --> 1:53:48.040 conflict here, then that's the obvious pick. And then the 1:53:48.120 --> 1:53:52.640 only difficulty is just getting people in to do that 1:53:52.840 --> 1:53:56.599 job well. And so for them, politics is just about okay, well, 1:53:56.840 --> 1:53:58.479 our team has the people who know how to do 1:53:58.520 --> 1:54:01.559 this job well, and the other team doesn't know how 1:54:01.560 --> 1:54:04.400 to do the job well, and they have trouble sometimes 1:54:04.479 --> 1:54:08.400 even conceiving that. In fact, no, the debate would be 1:54:08.439 --> 1:54:11.000 about what we're choosing to do. 1:54:12.240 --> 1:54:17.880 Johnson explains that liberal governance has to walk a dangerous tightrope. 1:54:18.240 --> 1:54:20.839 If you lean too far to the left, you stifle 1:54:20.920 --> 1:54:25.720 the economy and feed radicalism and extremism. Johnson points to 1:54:25.760 --> 1:54:28.679 Europe as an example of this. But if you lean 1:54:28.720 --> 1:54:32.720 too far to the right, economically, people will revolt if 1:54:32.720 --> 1:54:35.040 they don't share in the prosperity. 1:54:35.760 --> 1:54:39.920 If you don't successfully walk this tightrope, then you risk 1:54:40.160 --> 1:54:43.520 entering a kind of doom loop where you know, oh, 1:54:43.680 --> 1:54:48.040 everything seems really bad. We're all dooming, And so people 1:54:48.120 --> 1:54:51.680 are going to choose an illiberal candidate, and that illiberal 1:54:51.680 --> 1:54:54.680 candidate is going to do stupid things that make things 1:54:54.760 --> 1:54:59.000 worse in society, and that's going to make people even 1:54:59.120 --> 1:55:04.760 more illiberal, even more tilted towards extremism, which will lead 1:55:04.800 --> 1:55:08.000 to worse candidates who will make things even worse than before, 1:55:08.640 --> 1:55:13.720 and so on, etc. There is real risk of entering 1:55:13.760 --> 1:55:17.160 that kind of doom loop, and that's why it's important 1:55:17.160 --> 1:55:21.280 to actually have smart technocratic leadership. 1:55:22.200 --> 1:55:27.720 The doom loop theory glosses over the fact that Trump 1:55:27.880 --> 1:55:32.959 came after Oh Baba. The sentiment that this technocratic leadership 1:55:33.080 --> 1:55:37.160 wasn't working didn't just come from the right. Bernie Sanders 1:55:37.200 --> 1:55:40.840 also rose to prominence by arguing this from a left 1:55:40.840 --> 1:55:45.800 wing perspective, and the capitalist class were more threatened by Sanders, 1:55:46.280 --> 1:55:48.640 so they mobilized to take out the threat of left 1:55:48.640 --> 1:55:52.800 wing populism, even if that meant Trump's right wing populism 1:55:52.840 --> 1:55:56.960 would win, because they know that the left wing version 1:55:57.400 --> 1:56:00.800 is the one that could actually empower labor against the 1:56:00.920 --> 1:56:06.480 interests of capital. Johnson also claims that Joe Biden had 1:56:06.680 --> 1:56:13.320 big goals, but quote his technocratic ability wasn't there, meaning 1:56:13.360 --> 1:56:17.840 there was too much red tape prohibiting his policies from 1:56:18.040 --> 1:56:22.520 having an impact because he quote went about policy in 1:56:22.560 --> 1:56:27.320 a stupid way. Now Johnson knows that calling for a 1:56:27.400 --> 1:56:32.760 technocracy isn't an election strategy. For that, he proposes more 1:56:32.840 --> 1:56:37.600 quote unquote cynical maneuvering and that Liberals should get more 1:56:37.720 --> 1:56:41.840 quote unquote ruthless in terms of running elections. He says 1:56:42.200 --> 1:56:46.200 Kamala Harris should have forcefully distanced herself from Joe Biden, 1:56:46.760 --> 1:56:50.000 or the party should have pushed her out for being 1:56:50.080 --> 1:56:54.600 too compromised due to her association with Biden. Of course, 1:56:54.760 --> 1:56:59.000 Johnson does not acknowledge that the party is very capable 1:56:59.080 --> 1:57:04.280 of cynical, ruthless maneuvering when it serves their interests and 1:57:04.360 --> 1:57:07.840 the interests of their donors. Once again, consider the twenty 1:57:07.880 --> 1:57:12.600 sixteen and twenty twenty Democratic primaries and the concerted efforts 1:57:12.640 --> 1:57:16.800 to take down Bernie Sanders, something that quite possibly lost 1:57:16.840 --> 1:57:21.960 the Democrats the twenty sixteen election. But Johnson also talks 1:57:22.000 --> 1:57:26.920 about the need for cynical maneuvering in implementing policy. 1:57:27.160 --> 1:57:29.160 The main things he talks about seemed to be flatly 1:57:29.200 --> 1:57:32.200 at odds with each other because he says, well, you know, 1:57:32.240 --> 1:57:34.960 we need technocratic politics, which is to say you just 1:57:35.000 --> 1:57:37.360 need the right policies. You need the ones that are 1:57:37.360 --> 1:57:38.840 correct to do the job. 1:57:38.880 --> 1:57:39.120 Well. 1:57:39.160 --> 1:57:41.800 Again, what the job is, what we're trying to do 1:57:41.920 --> 1:57:45.760 is totally like not on the table. That's a given right, 1:57:46.000 --> 1:57:47.879 and then you just need the people who can technically 1:57:47.880 --> 1:57:50.440 do that well. But then he also says you need 1:57:50.760 --> 1:57:53.200 some cynicism. You need to be able to just be 1:57:53.400 --> 1:57:58.240 ruthless electorally and operate politically in order to win, which 1:57:58.640 --> 1:58:02.200 seems to directly contradict is like, well, what should you do. 1:58:02.280 --> 1:58:06.800 Should you pick the policies that are correct, pursue technocracy 1:58:06.880 --> 1:58:09.320 regardless of whether or not it's popular, whether it can 1:58:09.360 --> 1:58:12.440 win elections, right, which is his whole contention, is that 1:58:12.640 --> 1:58:16.960 the right policies are somehow, somehow not popular among the people. 1:58:17.320 --> 1:58:20.600 Or should you you know, be electorally ruthless and try 1:58:20.600 --> 1:58:24.200 to appeal to the masses and win elections by perhaps 1:58:24.280 --> 1:58:26.680 I mean he gives an example with the carbon tax, 1:58:26.680 --> 1:58:28.960 where he says, like, I think this policy is great, 1:58:29.000 --> 1:58:32.360 I think this is the technically correct policy, but you 1:58:32.480 --> 1:58:33.440 have to abandon it. 1:58:33.480 --> 1:58:33.800 Again. 1:58:34.160 --> 1:58:35.880 I'm sure if you asked him he would say, well, 1:58:35.880 --> 1:58:37.520 you have to strike a balance between the two. But 1:58:37.560 --> 1:58:41.720 as strategy. That's useless. Right, It's like, well, how should 1:58:41.720 --> 1:58:43.120 you ride a bike? Well, you don't want to lean 1:58:43.160 --> 1:58:44.840 too far left, but you also don't want to re 1:58:44.960 --> 1:58:47.120 lean too far right. You want to kind of stay 1:58:47.240 --> 1:58:50.440 right in the balanced middle. Okay, that tells us nothing. 1:58:50.800 --> 1:58:53.160 You should pick the right policies, but not so much. 1:58:53.200 --> 1:58:55.320 You need to also be ruthless and be able to 1:58:55.320 --> 1:58:58.520 win elections. Pick the right policies and win win elections. 1:58:59.360 --> 1:59:01.240 Don't see take it immediately. 1:59:02.040 --> 1:59:07.880 Johnson argues that the final necessary step in exiting the 1:59:08.120 --> 1:59:14.120 populist doom loop is quote unquote liberal nationalism, basically the 1:59:14.200 --> 1:59:19.400 idea that liberals need to become loudly more patriotic and 1:59:19.560 --> 1:59:24.080 reclaim and be proud of the progressive parts of American history. 1:59:25.200 --> 1:59:30.640 But liberal patriotism isn't enough to win elections, and the 1:59:30.680 --> 1:59:32.960 Harris campaign already kind of tried this. 1:59:33.720 --> 1:59:37.200 Liberals have got to be better at telling a story 1:59:37.280 --> 1:59:43.160 of how America is great. Liberalism made America great. Liberalism 1:59:43.200 --> 1:59:45.839 is why we're all rich and successful and awesome. 1:59:46.760 --> 1:59:49.919 This is the massive contradiction at the heart of their project. 1:59:50.360 --> 1:59:54.000 They want to say, we're all rich, the economy is great, 1:59:54.120 --> 1:59:58.680 living conditions are fine, but the new liberals do have 1:59:58.880 --> 2:00:03.560 at least some way awareness of material problems because most 2:00:03.600 --> 2:00:08.600 of the conference panels were about affordability, especially in relation 2:00:08.680 --> 2:00:13.320 to housing and energy costs. So are there massive economic 2:00:13.360 --> 2:00:17.920 factors driving voter behavior or not? How can you pretend 2:00:17.960 --> 2:00:21.800 that everything is great actually and then also put on 2:00:21.840 --> 2:00:25.360 a whole conference focusing on how housing and energy are 2:00:25.440 --> 2:00:29.720 way too expensive? You do know that there are material problems. 2:00:30.040 --> 2:00:34.720 What's actually happening here is that you're frustrated that people 2:00:34.800 --> 2:00:40.280 aren't buying into your neoliberal solutions to the problems caused 2:00:40.320 --> 2:00:45.040 by neoliberalism. But to the technocrat, it can't be the 2:00:45.160 --> 2:00:49.040 policies that are wrong. So instead it must be that 2:00:49.480 --> 2:00:52.200 we are not telling a strong enough story. 2:00:52.840 --> 2:00:56.800 We need to be able to figure out a pro growth, patriotic, 2:00:57.400 --> 2:01:02.800 muscular liberal message that work because people respond to two things. 2:01:02.840 --> 2:01:07.000 In the end, they respond to material conditions. If the 2:01:07.040 --> 2:01:09.480 material conditions are bad enough, they will get mad at you. 2:01:10.320 --> 2:01:14.160 But they also respond to stories, and it's hard to 2:01:14.160 --> 2:01:16.600 identify the story that liberals tell today. 2:01:17.320 --> 2:01:21.760 At the very end of this podcast, Johnson finally admits 2:01:21.800 --> 2:01:26.080 that people do in fact respond two material conditions, but 2:01:26.200 --> 2:01:30.360 only if things get bad enough. But he also believes 2:01:30.400 --> 2:01:34.680 that the economy is good, we are rich, we are successful, 2:01:35.400 --> 2:01:38.640 so the problem has to be something else, and that 2:01:38.800 --> 2:01:45.760 something else is stories. Liberalism just isn't telling the right stories. Again, 2:01:45.800 --> 2:01:51.360 it's not material problems, it's storytelling problems. And Johnson says, 2:01:51.480 --> 2:01:54.480 quote the story we should tell should be rooted in 2:01:54.600 --> 2:01:59.360 two things, a return to history and a vision of abundance. 2:02:00.120 --> 2:02:04.440 Johnson truly believes that this is all about stories and 2:02:04.560 --> 2:02:10.480 not actually about politics. And this is where the technocratic 2:02:10.720 --> 2:02:15.280 version of politics hits its own massive limitations. This is 2:02:15.280 --> 2:02:19.040 where it runs up against it's extremely narrow view of 2:02:19.200 --> 2:02:23.240 what politics is and what is politically possible. 2:02:23.760 --> 2:02:26.600 They're totally whipped by capital. Like that's the thing is, 2:02:26.600 --> 2:02:29.720 like capital sets the agenda because you know, they, as 2:02:29.720 --> 2:02:35.000 I said, they've ceded the territory of like political decisions 2:02:35.480 --> 2:02:39.800 properly put right, They concern themselves with the technical administration 2:02:40.000 --> 2:02:43.720 of the system, but are are totally uninterested in the 2:02:43.880 --> 2:02:46.440 commanding heights of the system of like how is the 2:02:46.800 --> 2:02:50.440 economy structured? But seating that territory doesn't mean it's it's neutral. 2:02:50.480 --> 2:02:52.720 It just means that, like, yeah, capital gets to call 2:02:52.760 --> 2:02:55.120 the shots. Then, and so capital basically says, well, here's 2:02:55.120 --> 2:02:58.320 what's possible, and here's what's not right, based very much 2:02:58.320 --> 2:03:01.560 on capital's interests, right, in order for us to maintain 2:03:01.680 --> 2:03:04.160 our profitability at the levels we would like and the 2:03:04.160 --> 2:03:07.200 ways we would like, these things are not possible. And 2:03:07.680 --> 2:03:10.800 the technocrats they just accept that, right, like it's a 2:03:10.840 --> 2:03:11.960 real belief for them. 2:03:12.000 --> 2:03:13.200 It's it's not cynical. 2:03:13.680 --> 2:03:18.280 You know, there is a time where with shrewder and 2:03:18.400 --> 2:03:22.920 more aware liberals, liberals who are aware of like class struggle, 2:03:22.920 --> 2:03:24.840 i think, and who were throwing in on the side 2:03:24.880 --> 2:03:29.160 of capital, like originally, like the classical liberals as well 2:03:29.160 --> 2:03:32.680 as liberals in throughout the twentieth century. Rightly, when they 2:03:32.720 --> 2:03:36.360 had to contend with like real socialist politics, they knew, 2:03:36.600 --> 2:03:39.240 like they were self conscious about, well, we are on 2:03:39.280 --> 2:03:40.080 the side of capital. 2:03:40.400 --> 2:03:40.600 Right. 2:03:40.840 --> 2:03:43.280 That's the biggest difference between sort of the past ages 2:03:43.320 --> 2:03:48.080 of liberalism and this, you know, upstart, young liberals they're 2:03:48.200 --> 2:03:51.640 so in the pocket of capital, they're so at capitals 2:03:51.640 --> 2:03:55.000 bidding that they don't even really know it's there anymore. 2:03:55.040 --> 2:03:58.200 And so they just perceived this as like, again, what 2:03:58.280 --> 2:04:01.080 capital wants is basically just the natural state of the 2:04:01.080 --> 2:04:05.560 world what is possible period with you know, like just 2:04:05.600 --> 2:04:09.560 such an impossibly narrow historical focus on like what is possible? 2:04:09.600 --> 2:04:11.840 And I just don't know how anyone like looks at 2:04:11.840 --> 2:04:14.040 the past, you know, one hundred years of history and 2:04:14.760 --> 2:04:17.480 feels they can conclude very solidly what is and is 2:04:17.520 --> 2:04:20.920 not possible. But they just feel that what capital says 2:04:21.440 --> 2:04:24.800 is basically the natural constraints of what's possible in society. 2:04:25.080 --> 2:04:27.720 And so given that which they take as a given, 2:04:28.040 --> 2:04:31.720 the only question is competent administration. It's a fall from 2:04:31.720 --> 2:04:34.840 previous liberals, you know, who argued for like, no, we 2:04:34.880 --> 2:04:38.200 want to empower capital over labor to a certain extent, right, 2:04:38.560 --> 2:04:40.839 or we want to achieve a balance between these things, 2:04:40.960 --> 2:04:43.640 usually with capital leading in some way. 2:04:45.120 --> 2:04:48.600 It's time for one more ad break before we learn how. 2:04:48.960 --> 2:04:53.920 Jeremiah Johnson believes that a quote unquote brightness loop might 2:04:54.000 --> 2:05:09.240 be the key dissolving the crisis of liberalism Welcome back. 2:05:10.280 --> 2:05:15.240 Johnson proposes the way out of this populist doom loop 2:05:15.800 --> 2:05:20.000 is what he calls a brightness loop, or basically like 2:05:20.040 --> 2:05:24.320 a positive feedback loop, which will be achieved through technocracy, 2:05:24.640 --> 2:05:30.320 ruthless politics, and liberal patriotism. Embracing America and our history 2:05:30.800 --> 2:05:33.080 and loudly proclaiming. 2:05:32.600 --> 2:05:35.520 We are rich, and we are successful, and we are awesome. 2:05:36.080 --> 2:05:37.480 America rocks. 2:05:38.240 --> 2:05:41.400 I wonder how that's gonna go over with voters who 2:05:41.440 --> 2:05:45.160 are struggling to pay bills and household expenses every month. 2:05:45.880 --> 2:05:49.960 Might they turn to another candidate who actually addresses the 2:05:50.000 --> 2:05:54.240 fact that maybe things aren't so great for everyone. The 2:05:54.400 --> 2:05:59.240 limitations of the technocratic mindset is a big part of 2:05:59.320 --> 2:06:03.760 why centre left candidates are losing to left populists in 2:06:04.080 --> 2:06:09.160 very high profile races. I really don't know how CNL 2:06:09.280 --> 2:06:13.520 expects to grow their organization and build momentum among young 2:06:13.560 --> 2:06:16.200 people to advance their own candidates, to claw back the 2:06:16.240 --> 2:06:19.680 Democratic Party away from the socialists, away from the populists, 2:06:19.680 --> 2:06:27.280 from the progressives. When their political project is calling for technocracy, cynicism, 2:06:27.680 --> 2:06:31.240 and liberal nationalism, how do you think that will attract 2:06:31.280 --> 2:06:36.360 and then mobilize an actual, energized, motivated base. Because the 2:06:36.360 --> 2:06:40.240 only people I can see that appealing to are those 2:06:40.400 --> 2:06:46.240 who aspire themselves to be technocrats and to reform. That 2:06:46.360 --> 2:06:49.760 is who attended the New Liberal Action summit last month 2:06:49.920 --> 2:06:53.840 in Washington, DC. It was a group of people who 2:06:53.880 --> 2:06:58.960 identify with and submit themselves to the mainstream neoliberal order, 2:06:59.320 --> 2:07:04.640 and who understand themselves through identifying with the base structure 2:07:04.720 --> 2:07:08.000 of capitalist American society. That's where they get their self 2:07:08.040 --> 2:07:12.000 identification and in many cases their jobs and their income. 2:07:12.480 --> 2:07:15.720 This is people who want to work in politics, who 2:07:15.760 --> 2:07:20.120 want to work as a consultant, a campaign manager, a lobbyist, 2:07:20.520 --> 2:07:24.480 or a congressional staffer. In contrast, a lot of the 2:07:24.520 --> 2:07:29.160 people in DSA don't have an actual interest in politics 2:07:29.280 --> 2:07:32.839 as an industry. In fact, they might have a frankly 2:07:33.000 --> 2:07:37.200 aversion to electoral politics, and they're kind of involved in 2:07:37.280 --> 2:07:42.640 DSA somewhat begrudgingly in a sense. Most DC members that 2:07:42.680 --> 2:07:46.680 I interact with would not want to work in politics 2:07:46.840 --> 2:07:50.280 as their job, But they are doing this because they 2:07:50.320 --> 2:07:53.520 believe in it, and because there's material forces that are 2:07:53.600 --> 2:07:58.680 driving them towards wanting this sort of change, versus the 2:07:59.120 --> 2:08:02.880 CNL approach of trying to base all your on the 2:08:02.960 --> 2:08:08.360 ground mobilization on like other aspiring technocrats and professionals whose 2:08:08.680 --> 2:08:14.400 lives are built very materially around these politics, around doing politics, 2:08:14.880 --> 2:08:19.640 and so their efforts to promote neoliberalism could be interpreted 2:08:19.680 --> 2:08:23.360 as a form of class reproduction and attempts to maintain 2:08:23.480 --> 2:08:27.520 their particular position within a class dynamic. Now, of course, 2:08:27.640 --> 2:08:32.160 the socialists do have their own flock of aspiring professionals 2:08:32.200 --> 2:08:36.120 and intellectuals who are seeking roles within civil institutions and 2:08:36.480 --> 2:08:41.320 political positions of authority. The difference lies in what political 2:08:41.440 --> 2:08:44.880 project you are a part of, what kind of class 2:08:44.920 --> 2:08:48.720 politics you're tied to, what class you're trying to empower, 2:08:49.280 --> 2:08:54.080 are you intending to maintain or alter class relations? And ultimately, 2:08:54.520 --> 2:08:58.960 what does political success look like just growing the GDP 2:08:59.080 --> 2:09:02.560 as much as possible, increasing the total amount of wealth, 2:09:03.280 --> 2:09:07.520 or is it economic equality and democratic control of society 2:09:07.560 --> 2:09:13.000 and production. In their attempts to claim liberal history right, 2:09:13.640 --> 2:09:17.720 the new liberals will associate themselves with you know, FDR, 2:09:17.920 --> 2:09:21.400 the New Deal. Maybe if they're shrewder the Great Society. 2:09:22.040 --> 2:09:25.400 One of the most frustrating parts of the conference for 2:09:25.480 --> 2:09:30.000 me was hearing these lobbyists talk about, you know, the 2:09:30.040 --> 2:09:35.080 great legacy of FDR, while in another breath strongly arguing 2:09:35.240 --> 2:09:40.320 against wealth taxes, against taxing the rich. At the end 2:09:40.360 --> 2:09:45.760 of the Crisis in Liberalism podcast, Johnson says, quote, the 2:09:45.840 --> 2:09:49.040 populace left says that you don't actually need to have 2:09:49.160 --> 2:09:51.880 any form of economic growth as long as you can 2:09:51.920 --> 2:09:55.600 categorize people into good and evil groups and tax the 2:09:55.680 --> 2:09:58.240 evil ones and give all their money to the good 2:09:58.280 --> 2:10:02.560 ones unquote. And I just don't think that is how 2:10:02.720 --> 2:10:07.280 they would describe New Deal or Great Society era tax rates. 2:10:07.840 --> 2:10:10.600 They would never describe those tax rates and the reasons 2:10:10.600 --> 2:10:14.360 for why they were instituted as like, we decided there 2:10:14.400 --> 2:10:18.320 are good and evil groups, and therefore we must punish 2:10:18.360 --> 2:10:21.360 the evil ones and give all their money to the 2:10:21.400 --> 2:10:25.080 good ones. The new Liberals have to play it both 2:10:25.120 --> 2:10:29.040 ways because they still want to associate themselves with the 2:10:29.080 --> 2:10:32.320 sort of heights of liberal democracy in the United States, 2:10:32.560 --> 2:10:36.160 which they point to these eras as, but they're both 2:10:36.520 --> 2:10:40.880 fundamentally opposed to what these eras actually are, the economic 2:10:40.960 --> 2:10:44.720 policies and tax base that made those policies possible, and 2:10:44.880 --> 2:10:50.120 also vehemently opposed to the organized labor apparatus that fought 2:10:50.240 --> 2:10:54.280 for those policies. So they want to claim the legacy 2:10:54.360 --> 2:10:58.440 of those things for liberalism, but shorn of all content, 2:10:59.160 --> 2:11:02.360 they have to complet completely ignore both the substance of 2:11:02.440 --> 2:11:06.480 those politics and the forces that drove those politics, which 2:11:06.560 --> 2:11:10.640 was chiefly the labor movement, and socialists were a huge 2:11:10.680 --> 2:11:14.880 part of that. But neoliberals don't want to acknowledge or 2:11:14.920 --> 2:11:19.360 promote labor because organized labor runs contrary to the interest 2:11:19.400 --> 2:11:23.560 of capital, and because they know they can't compete with 2:11:23.720 --> 2:11:27.440 DSA if you're going to play that game. In somewhat 2:11:27.600 --> 2:11:34.400 breaking from Ezra Cline, cnl's strain of neoliberal abundance explicitly 2:11:34.480 --> 2:11:38.560 blames unions for why it's so hard to build housing 2:11:38.720 --> 2:11:42.800 and infrastructure. They think labor unions are bad for the 2:11:42.840 --> 2:11:47.680 economy and thus are evil, and that the general public 2:11:47.800 --> 2:11:52.680 are stupid children throwing a temper tantrum sabotaging the greatest 2:11:52.720 --> 2:11:57.880 country ever by electing populists because liberalism made the world 2:11:58.040 --> 2:12:02.320 too good. There's no more struggle, and liberals just have 2:12:02.440 --> 2:12:06.400 to tell the people a better story so that neoliberal 2:12:06.440 --> 2:12:10.760 technocrats can stay in power, that those with technical knowledge 2:12:10.800 --> 2:12:11.520 can rule. 2:12:11.800 --> 2:12:15.600 It's a profoundly undemocratic politics. You pursue it to its 2:12:15.680 --> 2:12:20.440 logical ends, and it is literally well, the people do 2:12:20.560 --> 2:12:24.040 not really know what their interests are, and in fact, 2:12:24.680 --> 2:12:27.960 we'll go against them just for the sake of having meaning. 2:12:28.320 --> 2:12:31.760 I guess, so it's up to us those who do 2:12:31.880 --> 2:12:35.880 know what the right politics are to be in charge 2:12:35.960 --> 2:12:38.880 and to basically call all the shots. And who has 2:12:38.920 --> 2:12:41.760 the authority to say that we have the right politics? 2:12:41.760 --> 2:12:44.600 Well us, of course, right. It's why you know, these 2:12:44.600 --> 2:12:47.960 people exist at the whim of capital. Without capital, they 2:12:47.960 --> 2:12:51.680 are nothing, right. They have this idea that they produce 2:12:51.680 --> 2:12:55.080 their own authority by having the correct policies. They know 2:12:55.200 --> 2:12:58.040 the world, and that's where their power comes from. They 2:12:58.080 --> 2:13:01.400 exist at capital's whim, right, and if capital decides to 2:13:01.400 --> 2:13:03.520 move into a different direction, they have no authority. 2:13:03.520 --> 2:13:04.080 They have nothing. 2:13:04.320 --> 2:13:07.520 It's capital or labor. You either get your source of 2:13:07.560 --> 2:13:12.800 authority and political power from the economic powers that be 2:13:13.200 --> 2:13:16.920 the property owners who control production and have an enormous 2:13:16.920 --> 2:13:18.800 amount of power in that sense, or you get it 2:13:18.840 --> 2:13:21.680 from the masses, from the people, the laborers, who actually 2:13:21.720 --> 2:13:25.520 power society and power all production. Those are the two forces. 2:13:25.760 --> 2:13:29.960 This idea that correct knowledge in itself supplies authority is 2:13:30.000 --> 2:13:35.520 not only obviously undemocratic, but it's i mean, just profoundly confused. 2:13:35.760 --> 2:13:40.280 It's completely oblivious to political reality. It doesn't believe in politics, 2:13:40.280 --> 2:13:42.320 it doesn't think there is a realm of politics. 2:13:42.560 --> 2:13:45.240 With that though, you are forgetting that we're rich that 2:13:45.280 --> 2:13:46.560 were successful, that were awesome. 2:13:46.800 --> 2:13:50.200 Yeah, we are rich, we are successful, we are awesome. 2:13:50.600 --> 2:13:53.000 America rocks, America rocks. 2:13:53.560 --> 2:13:55.000 God what a Yeah. 2:13:55.120 --> 2:13:57.600 He pairs that one with talking about like you can't 2:13:57.600 --> 2:14:00.160 be a depressing nerd and talk about what America is 2:14:00.200 --> 2:14:02.200 done wrong. I love the idea of like trying to 2:14:02.200 --> 2:14:05.040 set yourself up against like nerds, being like, don't be 2:14:05.080 --> 2:14:07.760 a nerd, and then being like, America rocks, We're rich, 2:14:07.880 --> 2:14:10.960 we're successful. Where all that is like the nerd line. 2:14:10.960 --> 2:14:12.240 It's like, this is a. 2:14:12.160 --> 2:14:13.240 Whole nerd conference. 2:14:13.280 --> 2:14:17.440 This is like the yes policy wonky will Stancil matically 2:14:17.560 --> 2:14:19.680 sious like nerds central. 2:14:20.120 --> 2:14:22.760 Well, maybe you're on the football team, but I have 2:14:22.840 --> 2:14:25.960 an a in math, Like it's literally that it's that, well, 2:14:26.000 --> 2:14:29.920 we're rich, where successful? And where awesome? We We've won 2:14:30.000 --> 2:14:31.320 World War Two, we. 2:14:32.040 --> 2:14:34.120 Beat the communists, we beat the communists. 2:14:34.120 --> 2:14:38.080 Where it's just very Yeah, it's it's hollow too. I mean, 2:14:38.120 --> 2:14:41.160 I'm a red blooded American. You know, there's a lot 2:14:41.400 --> 2:14:46.880 to like about the American society, but this, like America 2:14:47.040 --> 2:14:49.600 rocks America is awesome. Like, I don't know, maybe there's 2:14:49.600 --> 2:14:51.920 a reason people aren't really feeling that one, right, now, 2:14:51.960 --> 2:14:54.680 you know, just shouting it into into the faces of 2:14:55.240 --> 2:14:58.160 the misery of the masses is not the best move. 2:14:58.400 --> 2:15:00.360 You don't think that's gonna go over well with voters 2:15:00.360 --> 2:15:02.520 who are maybe not rich and who are struggling. 2:15:02.600 --> 2:15:04.400 Yeah, I don't know, man, look around, it's been a 2:15:04.400 --> 2:15:07.200 pretty bad time. Like, yeah, no, I don't I think 2:15:07.240 --> 2:15:09.360 this kind of God, we're awesome. 2:15:10.360 --> 2:15:14.520 As much as the New Liberals are upset and confused 2:15:14.520 --> 2:15:17.840 why the political momentum is with DSA and not them, 2:15:18.280 --> 2:15:21.160 the Center for New Liberalism will never be able to 2:15:21.240 --> 2:15:25.839 build an organization of young Libs capable of rivaling DSA 2:15:26.440 --> 2:15:33.960 because technocratic liberalism categorically rejects mass politics. So while CNL 2:15:34.000 --> 2:15:37.640 and the New Liberals make a big show online, ultimately 2:15:38.120 --> 2:15:41.480 they are just a front group for PPI, the Progressive 2:15:41.480 --> 2:15:45.400 Policy Institute, the centrist think tank that convinced the Democratic 2:15:45.440 --> 2:15:48.520 Party to abandon the working class of the nineties, abandon 2:15:48.720 --> 2:15:54.520 redistributive new deoliberalism, and embrace de regulatory, free market neoliberal 2:15:54.560 --> 2:15:59.320 economics under Bill Clinton. So while the blue Globe emoji 2:15:59.360 --> 2:16:04.840 people will continue to post prolifically online, I suspect that 2:16:05.080 --> 2:16:10.040 is where their political impact will largely remain. Here's a 2:16:10.240 --> 2:16:13.480 final note from sociology professor Ben rose Porter. 2:16:14.160 --> 2:16:16.920 I mean, look, economies are hard to figure out, but 2:16:17.160 --> 2:16:18.800 I think it's just worth saying, like, what are you 2:16:18.880 --> 2:16:19.840 growing the economy for? 2:16:20.480 --> 2:16:20.680 Right? 2:16:20.800 --> 2:16:23.920 The whole point is to provide people with better lives, 2:16:24.200 --> 2:16:26.520 you know, raise their wages, give them more power and 2:16:26.560 --> 2:16:28.760 control over their lives and their society. 2:16:29.160 --> 2:16:31.240 And they just seem to have it very reversed. 2:16:31.280 --> 2:16:43.360 Where the point is to grow the economy at whatever cost. 2:16:47.720 --> 2:16:51.120 Welcome back, it could happen here, a podcast about it 2:16:51.520 --> 2:16:55.040 happening here. And in this case, the here we're talking 2:16:55.120 --> 2:16:58.560 about is Texas, and the it we're talking about is 2:16:58.640 --> 2:17:04.240 one of America's most corrupt and evil politicians, kN Paxton. 2:17:04.360 --> 2:17:07.160 And I'm using corrupt and evil in like an objective 2:17:07.320 --> 2:17:09.560 scientific since I need you to understand this is not 2:17:09.600 --> 2:17:12.760 a matter of opinion. The Vatic can convene the series 2:17:12.800 --> 2:17:16.480 of scientists who who did confirm that Ken Paxton has 2:17:16.920 --> 2:17:20.520 the evil equivalent of midichlorians in a concentration never before 2:17:20.560 --> 2:17:23.879 seen in an American politician. And to talk to me 2:17:24.120 --> 2:17:26.840 about Ken Paxton and say things that are real and 2:17:27.040 --> 2:17:30.680 accurate and not nonsense. Is a guy who actually reports 2:17:30.680 --> 2:17:33.800 on Ken Paxton directly as part of his professional job 2:17:33.920 --> 2:17:37.600 as a real journalist. Robert Downan, Robert, welcome to the show. 2:17:37.840 --> 2:17:40.680 Thank you for having man, Thank you for that incredible introduction. 2:17:43.640 --> 2:17:46.000 Gotta have a little fun with Ken oh k Pax. 2:17:46.480 --> 2:17:49.560 Yeah, yeah, first off, you want to introduce yourself, put 2:17:49.600 --> 2:17:50.680 up your plugs up front here. 2:17:50.920 --> 2:17:51.200 Sure. 2:17:51.360 --> 2:17:52.440 My name is Robert down In. 2:17:52.560 --> 2:17:55.879 I'm a writer at Texas Monthly. I've been in Texas 2:17:55.920 --> 2:17:58.879 for almost a decade now, where I've kind of covered 2:17:59.360 --> 2:18:02.480 I guess you could say religion, the convergence of far 2:18:02.560 --> 2:18:06.120 right politics and religion extremism, et cetera, which is to say, 2:18:06.200 --> 2:18:08.760 you know, now, I basically just cover the current Texas 2:18:08.840 --> 2:18:11.760 GOP because they are kind of the incubator for a 2:18:11.760 --> 2:18:13.200 lot of policy that goes national. 2:18:13.280 --> 2:18:17.440 So yeah, it is like the breeding warren in the 2:18:17.440 --> 2:18:19.720 center of the fever swamps in a lot of ways. 2:18:19.959 --> 2:18:20.160 Yeah. 2:18:20.640 --> 2:18:22.920 You and I met a couple of years ago now 2:18:23.080 --> 2:18:26.199 at the r n C during twenty twenty four, which 2:18:26.280 --> 2:18:28.920 was a lot of fun. And I'm kind of curious 2:18:28.920 --> 2:18:30.280 because I don't know that I actually asked you then, 2:18:30.320 --> 2:18:33.560 when did you start kind of covering kin Pas and 2:18:33.800 --> 2:18:35.400 do you remember like when you first like really became 2:18:35.440 --> 2:18:36.800 aware of him in a meaningful way. 2:18:37.040 --> 2:18:38.120 Yeah. I don't know if you remember this. 2:18:38.200 --> 2:18:39.840 I think we were actually in the middle of talking 2:18:39.879 --> 2:18:41.880 about it, and we were at some stake joint and 2:18:41.920 --> 2:18:44.800 I looked to my right and recognized a very large 2:18:45.760 --> 2:18:49.360 Rambo asked bodyguard sitting next to us, who happens to 2:18:49.400 --> 2:18:53.039 be Canpax's bodyguard, and realized that right next to us. 2:18:53.320 --> 2:18:55.039 So I don't think you ever finished the conversation. 2:18:55.240 --> 2:19:00.240 You're right, we did. Fucking the RNC guys. It's a wild. 2:19:00.120 --> 2:19:02.720 Time, yes, And then I met Roger Stone was great, Yeah. 2:19:02.640 --> 2:19:06.959 Yeah, fucking Ted Kruz walked in. What a day. 2:19:07.280 --> 2:19:11.720 I started covering Ken Paxton probably officially in twenty twenty two, 2:19:11.760 --> 2:19:14.120 twenty twenty three. Before that I had kind of covered, 2:19:14.160 --> 2:19:16.760 you know, Southern Baptist stuff. I was really focused more 2:19:16.760 --> 2:19:19.400 on the religion side of stuff, so like he's always 2:19:19.440 --> 2:19:22.840 been in my peripherals, but never you know, been a 2:19:22.840 --> 2:19:23.480 sole focus. 2:19:23.560 --> 2:19:25.720 And then about you know, five. 2:19:25.600 --> 2:19:27.720 Years ago Ish, who I guess four years ago Ish, 2:19:27.959 --> 2:19:31.200 I started really focusing on this far right movement in Texas, 2:19:31.280 --> 2:19:33.920 the billionaires behind it, who you know. 2:19:34.000 --> 2:19:34.880 For that movement. 2:19:34.959 --> 2:19:36.440 Ken Packson is kind of the tip of the spear. 2:19:36.520 --> 2:19:39.360 So he's been not a primary focus of mine, but 2:19:39.560 --> 2:19:42.400 you know, someone who I'm paying very frequent attention to 2:19:42.560 --> 2:19:43.720 for quite a while. 2:19:43.760 --> 2:19:47.800 So yeah, so Ken is he's not a Texan by 2:19:47.800 --> 2:19:51.480 birth obviously, which which doesn't matter to anybody but some Texans, 2:19:51.760 --> 2:19:53.880 but he was. He was born in North Dakota if 2:19:53.920 --> 2:19:57.280 I'm remembering correctly, and he first kind of comes on 2:19:57.320 --> 2:20:01.240 the scene politically in like two thousand three when he's 2:20:01.879 --> 2:20:06.600 he's a state representative, right right, Yeah, with is kind 2:20:06.640 --> 2:20:09.920 of the first really notable moment in the Kim Paxton 2:20:10.080 --> 2:20:12.160 saga in your opinion, Like when you go back to 2:20:12.200 --> 2:20:14.560 like where, where, where does this guy start to differentiate 2:20:14.640 --> 2:20:15.840 himself from everyone else? 2:20:16.200 --> 2:20:18.880 I think you really to kind of understand Ken Paxton's 2:20:18.920 --> 2:20:22.039 rise and especially the political climate of Texas right now, 2:20:22.080 --> 2:20:25.040 you have to go to this twenty nine to twenty 2:20:25.080 --> 2:20:29.200 ten period where Texas really was on the forefront of 2:20:29.200 --> 2:20:31.680 what would become the Tea Party movement. We started to see, 2:20:31.800 --> 2:20:35.200 you know, this huge influx of billionaire oil money, in 2:20:35.240 --> 2:20:38.160 particular these two dudes named Farris Wilks and Tim Dunn, 2:20:38.200 --> 2:20:40.440 who I'm sure, we'll get to in this conversation. Yeah, 2:20:40.480 --> 2:20:42.879 you know, they kind of coalesce around this strategy in 2:20:42.959 --> 2:20:46.560 the Texas House in particular, where they're going to basically 2:20:46.640 --> 2:20:50.160 just accuse anyone who's not sufficiently far right enough for 2:20:50.280 --> 2:20:53.000 them as being a rhino and pump all of this 2:20:53.120 --> 2:20:55.959 money into a media and political eCos or you know 2:20:56.040 --> 2:20:59.360 network that kind of just becomes almost like this this 2:20:59.440 --> 2:21:01.520 way that they are holding people speak to the fire 2:21:01.600 --> 2:21:03.840 to the point where you know they are, you know, 2:21:03.959 --> 2:21:06.640 funneling hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars to 2:21:06.720 --> 2:21:10.959 primary opponents for incumbent lawmakers. A lot of these you know, 2:21:11.040 --> 2:21:14.160 these candidates are you know, dead on arrival, they have no. 2:21:14.120 --> 2:21:16.240 Actual chance of winning a primary. But the whole point 2:21:16.320 --> 2:21:16.920 is just kind. 2:21:16.760 --> 2:21:21.039 Of like bruise up these lawmakers, deplete their campaign coffers 2:21:21.080 --> 2:21:23.800 and kind of make them second guests anytime that they're 2:21:23.840 --> 2:21:26.359 thinking about defying this political network. 2:21:26.240 --> 2:21:27.040 In the next session. 2:21:27.400 --> 2:21:31.120 So Paxson really emerges out of that, I guess kind 2:21:31.120 --> 2:21:34.320 of movement. You know, you start to see around twenty 2:21:34.360 --> 2:21:37.640 twelve twenty thirteen, these groups that are funded by Tim 2:21:37.680 --> 2:21:40.000 Dunnanfarris Wilks really start to hold him up as this 2:21:40.080 --> 2:21:43.440 tax payer champion. And then in twenty fourteen, he launches 2:21:43.480 --> 2:21:46.960 what was kind of thought to be a long shot 2:21:47.040 --> 2:21:50.720 bid for attorney General that he ends up winning against 2:21:51.480 --> 2:21:54.480 a little bit more moderate Republican candidates with key help 2:21:54.520 --> 2:21:56.920 from these billionaires, and that kind of you know, is 2:21:56.959 --> 2:21:58.080 off the racist from there. 2:21:58.840 --> 2:22:01.520 Yeah, So this is a really as you bring up, 2:22:01.520 --> 2:22:04.640 a really interesting thing that starts happening to Texas politically. 2:22:04.879 --> 2:22:07.400 It starts like right as the Bush ears are coming 2:22:07.440 --> 2:22:10.520 to an end, because obviously George W. Bush was not 2:22:10.600 --> 2:22:12.920 just the governor of Texas, but he was kind of 2:22:12.920 --> 2:22:16.439 the governor of Texas who his victory sort of heralded 2:22:16.840 --> 2:22:19.959 the defeat of the Democratic Party in Texas in a 2:22:19.959 --> 2:22:22.480 way that it, I mean, it still hasn't recovered from 2:22:22.840 --> 2:22:24.440 at least, you know. That's kind of the way I 2:22:25.000 --> 2:22:27.200 often see it. And you have you have Bush come 2:22:27.240 --> 2:22:30.480 in and then obviously become the president, but because of 2:22:30.600 --> 2:22:35.240 the unpopularity of the neo cons Texas also winds up 2:22:35.280 --> 2:22:40.080 becoming kind of this incubator of the backlash, the conservative 2:22:40.120 --> 2:22:43.040 backlash to Bush too, and and Paxton embodies that to 2:22:43.040 --> 2:22:45.760 some extent because he literally defeats a Bush as part 2:22:45.800 --> 2:22:48.680 of his his rise to power right like much later on, 2:22:48.800 --> 2:22:50.240 But that is interesting to me. 2:22:50.480 --> 2:22:52.520 Yeah, I mean, I think the way to really understand 2:22:52.520 --> 2:22:55.600 that texaschuoki is for the longest time it was this 2:22:55.879 --> 2:22:59.800 coalition of you know, big big business interests, specifically oil. 2:23:00.200 --> 2:23:03.560 But then you know, you had the evangelical cohort and 2:23:03.600 --> 2:23:05.840 they kind of existed in harmony. 2:23:05.400 --> 2:23:06.640 With each other for a while. 2:23:07.120 --> 2:23:09.120 You know, there were obviously rough patches for the party, 2:23:09.440 --> 2:23:13.640 but you know, overcoming you know, the the democratic establishments 2:23:13.720 --> 2:23:15.440 that had ruled the state for so long, I think 2:23:15.560 --> 2:23:17.760 kind of, you know, it's much easier to stick together 2:23:17.760 --> 2:23:20.520 when when everyone's winning. But then out of this, oh 2:23:20.520 --> 2:23:22.959 but out of the Obama years, in the post Obama years, 2:23:23.240 --> 2:23:25.280 you have this Tea Party movement that is you know, 2:23:25.800 --> 2:23:28.680 really led by Ken Pax and these billionaires to many degrees, 2:23:29.120 --> 2:23:32.360 they turned their sights on those in the party. 2:23:32.680 --> 2:23:33.800 So again you have. 2:23:34.000 --> 2:23:37.640 Just this really really ugly early days of what turns 2:23:37.640 --> 2:23:39.560 into a full on civil war within the party, where 2:23:39.600 --> 2:23:41.840 you know, people who in most other states would be 2:23:41.879 --> 2:23:43.680 considered you know, the most far right member of the 2:23:43.720 --> 2:23:47.080 legislature are being branded like rhinos and traders and this 2:23:47.160 --> 2:23:49.120 is you know, this is in the pre Trump era 2:23:49.280 --> 2:23:52.120 before that was kind of the I guess, you know, 2:23:52.240 --> 2:23:54.080 animating philosophy. 2:23:53.480 --> 2:23:55.080 Of you know, kind of you know, borrowing from this 2:23:55.160 --> 2:23:56.640 no enemies to the right framework. 2:23:56.760 --> 2:24:00.040 That was something that was really I think defining and 2:24:00.320 --> 2:24:02.560 all of what's happening in Texas first and not nationally. 2:24:02.959 --> 2:24:06.960 And do you have a sense personally of when can 2:24:07.200 --> 2:24:11.119 sort of ultra right beliefs begin. Is this something that's 2:24:11.200 --> 2:24:13.800 always a thing for him or is this something that 2:24:13.879 --> 2:24:16.199 he adopts opportunistically. 2:24:16.480 --> 2:24:18.560 Is it becomes clear that that's the future of the party. 2:24:18.760 --> 2:24:20.760 Yeah, I mean it's a really tough question and something 2:24:20.840 --> 2:24:22.440 I think a lot of us have spent a lot 2:24:22.440 --> 2:24:25.560 of time trying to figure out. He almost is so 2:24:25.640 --> 2:24:28.680 emblematic of the direction of the text Europe in general 2:24:28.720 --> 2:24:32.560 that it's almost impossible to differentiate whether you know, he 2:24:32.640 --> 2:24:36.480 always harbored these beliefs and then translated that into political 2:24:36.520 --> 2:24:39.400 momentum towards them, or if the political momentum broke in 2:24:39.520 --> 2:24:41.680 towards you know, it's a chicken and egg situation home. 2:24:42.080 --> 2:24:44.680 But I will say that, you know, starting as soon 2:24:44.720 --> 2:24:47.440 as he becomes Attorney general, he really starts to use 2:24:47.440 --> 2:24:51.680 that position to aid the political objectives both on social 2:24:51.720 --> 2:24:54.720 policy but also on campaign finance reform. You know, all 2:24:54.720 --> 2:24:57.760 these other issues really start to push the state and 2:24:57.800 --> 2:25:01.480 the state party towards the I guess policy positions of 2:25:01.520 --> 2:25:02.760 this far right billionaire. 2:25:02.800 --> 2:25:02.959 Now. 2:25:03.520 --> 2:25:07.800 Yeah, now when it comes to Ken himself, his first 2:25:07.840 --> 2:25:12.280 big scandal is kind of like a bribery allegation, right 2:25:12.400 --> 2:25:13.720 is I'm recalling? 2:25:14.520 --> 2:25:17.400 Yes, So in twenty eleven, when he is still a 2:25:17.440 --> 2:25:20.440 state Rep. He meets at a dairy queen with the 2:25:20.480 --> 2:25:24.320 CEO of a software company Fary Texas. As we continue 2:25:24.360 --> 2:25:26.039 this conversation, you're going to notice there's a lot of 2:25:26.040 --> 2:25:28.520 fast food. Yeah, this man loves a fast food joint. 2:25:28.560 --> 2:25:31.840 You know what North Texas born in well, not born 2:25:31.879 --> 2:25:33.400 but raised, so I do get that. 2:25:33.760 --> 2:25:34.360 Yeah. Yeah. 2:25:34.800 --> 2:25:37.760 Anyways, so he meets this guy to dairy queen and 2:25:37.920 --> 2:25:42.080 again this is all allegedly. This court case was settled 2:25:42.520 --> 2:25:45.440 I think in twenty twenty four, but basically the allegation 2:25:45.560 --> 2:25:48.280 from the SEC which later indicted him was that he 2:25:48.920 --> 2:25:52.600 was offered one hundred thousand shares in this new company. 2:25:53.120 --> 2:25:56.199 Ken Paxon claims that he tried to pay the CEO 2:25:56.320 --> 2:25:58.400 for the shares, and the CEO is like, no, God 2:25:58.440 --> 2:26:00.160 told me to give this to you. 2:26:00.160 --> 2:26:01.320 You can't give me any money. 2:26:01.600 --> 2:26:04.600 And then so Paxton allegedly goes on and sells something like, 2:26:04.680 --> 2:26:09.080 you know, almost a million dollars worth of shares in 2:26:09.160 --> 2:26:12.160 this company to people without allegedly telling him that he 2:26:12.200 --> 2:26:14.360 was also an investor. So he gets indicted in twenty 2:26:14.440 --> 2:26:20.880 fifteen on selling a security fraud, and that charge is 2:26:21.000 --> 2:26:24.320 kind of hanging over his head for the next almost 2:26:24.360 --> 2:26:27.520 ten years, and as we'll get into, is kind of 2:26:27.600 --> 2:26:29.160 like just looming off in the distance for all of 2:26:29.160 --> 2:26:31.440 its political rise, but also plays an important part of 2:26:31.480 --> 2:26:34.120 his impeachment. But there's one other scandal that you know, 2:26:34.240 --> 2:26:36.720 wasn't criminal that kind of predates the impeachment, which is 2:26:36.760 --> 2:26:40.480 that in twenty fourteen, as he's running for attorney general, 2:26:41.080 --> 2:26:45.320 he is at a courthouse in the Dallas area and 2:26:45.560 --> 2:26:47.760 there's a video of this A guy in front of 2:26:47.840 --> 2:26:50.560 him in the security line leaves one thousand dollars month 2:26:51.000 --> 2:26:52.240 ten in the in the. 2:26:52.480 --> 2:26:55.080 Yeah, yeah, it is my one of my favorite KPEX. 2:26:55.400 --> 2:26:57.640 Yes, yeah, there's this little video of Ken Paxton just 2:26:57.680 --> 2:26:59.640 kind of plucking it out there and putting into his 2:26:59.640 --> 2:27:01.920 pocket and yeah, so saw something. 2:27:01.720 --> 2:27:05.520 He liked it, he took it pretty funny. 2:27:05.600 --> 2:27:09.160 Yeah, oh god, that is beautiful. And we have a 2:27:09.200 --> 2:27:12.439 lot more beautiful Kin Paxtan stories to come. But first 2:27:12.800 --> 2:27:24.480 some ads and we're back. 2:27:25.400 --> 2:27:26.720 I guess one of the things that occurs to me, 2:27:26.840 --> 2:27:28.640 just kind of as i've every time I've looked over 2:27:28.760 --> 2:27:32.680 Kin's background, is how much of his election history is 2:27:32.959 --> 2:27:36.119 ran unopposed in the primary, ran against a Democrat who 2:27:36.160 --> 2:27:38.840 had no chance of victory, right Like, once he gets 2:27:39.040 --> 2:27:42.040 in this isn't totally the case, but once he gets 2:27:42.040 --> 2:27:44.840 into office, a lot of his elections are almost like 2:27:44.879 --> 2:27:47.600 a rubber stamp pro forma soda deal kind of. 2:27:47.680 --> 2:27:47.880 Yeah. 2:27:47.920 --> 2:27:49.640 I mean, I think that I'd have to go back 2:27:49.680 --> 2:27:51.240 and look at the actual margins, but I think that 2:27:51.320 --> 2:27:54.920 he is actually historically kind of lagged behind, you know, 2:27:55.000 --> 2:27:57.280 as far as the margins he's winning by have always 2:27:57.320 --> 2:27:59.240 kind of lagged behind what other top. 2:27:59.080 --> 2:28:00.440 Republicans are winning. Bye. 2:28:00.520 --> 2:28:04.640 Yeah, in twenty eighteen you start to see some cracks. Yeah, 2:28:04.760 --> 2:28:07.160 and then in twenty twenty is when you start seeing 2:28:07.160 --> 2:28:07.360 you know, the. 2:28:07.360 --> 2:28:10.240 Courre quote establishment Texas GOP starting. 2:28:09.879 --> 2:28:13.880 To fund his opponents and ultimately that doesn't work and 2:28:14.480 --> 2:28:16.680 lays the groundwork for I guess the kind of conspiracy 2:28:16.720 --> 2:28:18.800 theories around his impeachment, which I'm sure we'll get there. 2:28:19.320 --> 2:28:24.439 It is interesting that Kim has never been a great campaigner. 2:28:24.800 --> 2:28:28.840 He's benefited from the Republican Party's dominance in Texas and 2:28:28.959 --> 2:28:31.720 like the abount of funding and whatnot that he's able 2:28:31.760 --> 2:28:33.800 to raise his result of that, But as you said, 2:28:33.800 --> 2:28:37.640 he's like lagged behind other Republicans in terms of like 2:28:37.680 --> 2:28:41.160 his electoral performance, and he has had some real close 2:28:41.240 --> 2:28:44.120 squeakers in the past too, which is one of the 2:28:44.160 --> 2:28:47.039 reasons why, like this current election is so interesting. But 2:28:47.160 --> 2:28:49.959 what do you think the Republican Party, the state party 2:28:50.040 --> 2:28:52.000 starts to turn against him. What is it that does that? 2:28:52.080 --> 2:28:54.400 Is it just sort of the weight of scandals that 2:28:54.440 --> 2:28:56.920 this guy accumulates, because we've only talked about a couple 2:28:56.959 --> 2:28:58.560 of them, or is it something else? 2:28:59.160 --> 2:29:03.879 I think that again, he becomes very emblematic of this 2:29:04.040 --> 2:29:06.320 far right flank of the Texas GOP that is funded 2:29:06.320 --> 2:29:09.480 by Tim Dunferis Wilkes, Like, there's this moment in twenty seventeen, 2:29:09.520 --> 2:29:12.320 twenty eighteen ish where the Texas House and the Texas 2:29:12.360 --> 2:29:15.360 legislature has just gotten out of this brutally you know, 2:29:15.600 --> 2:29:19.680 controversial session where they were you know, doing early versions 2:29:19.720 --> 2:29:22.800 of the bathroom build There was really just acrimonious within 2:29:22.840 --> 2:29:25.480 the party. And there are these quotes of these I guess, 2:29:25.560 --> 2:29:27.800 you know, we would call them more moderate Republicans, but 2:29:27.840 --> 2:29:30.240 again still very right wing in any other state. 2:29:30.480 --> 2:29:31.360 Yeah, but they come out. 2:29:31.400 --> 2:29:33.240 You know, there's a famous quote from then, you know, 2:29:33.560 --> 2:29:35.879 the man who became the House speaker basically says, you know, 2:29:36.000 --> 2:29:39.640 we're done bashing the gays, basically trying to move the 2:29:39.720 --> 2:29:42.400 party away from these you know, I guess, for lack 2:29:42.400 --> 2:29:45.520 of a better term, culture war issues, that really the 2:29:45.560 --> 2:29:48.720 far right flank is trying to coalesce around. Yeah, and 2:29:48.800 --> 2:29:52.160 I think that Ken Paxton is is very much seen as. 2:29:51.959 --> 2:29:54.279 A as a kind of you know, emblem of. 2:29:54.120 --> 2:29:57.800 That flank that for a while looked like it was, 2:29:58.520 --> 2:30:01.039 you know, on the verge of being on the outs 2:30:01.040 --> 2:30:02.080 of Texas politics. 2:30:02.120 --> 2:30:03.800 I mean, if you go back to that summer before 2:30:03.840 --> 2:30:05.080 his impeachment. 2:30:05.080 --> 2:30:07.640 There are so many different things that happened in the 2:30:07.720 --> 2:30:09.160 lead up to that where you're like, oh, this Tim 2:30:09.200 --> 2:30:11.920 Dunferris Wilk's network looks like, you know, this is a 2:30:11.959 --> 2:30:14.560 death rattle moment for it, and instead of dying, it 2:30:14.600 --> 2:30:17.120 becomes more powerful than ever and starts exporting all of 2:30:17.160 --> 2:30:18.039 its stuff nationally. 2:30:18.959 --> 2:30:20.879 Why why do you think that is? 2:30:21.000 --> 2:30:21.080 Like? 2:30:21.160 --> 2:30:21.320 What? 2:30:21.720 --> 2:30:23.119 How the fuck does this guy? 2:30:23.400 --> 2:30:27.039 Sorry, how is this guy though, the one who manages 2:30:27.080 --> 2:30:30.840 to like reincarnate himself at this moment that should have 2:30:30.879 --> 2:30:31.480 been his end? 2:30:31.840 --> 2:30:33.879 A I think I know that. 2:30:33.959 --> 2:30:35.840 Yeah, there's not an answer to that, but I guess 2:30:35.840 --> 2:30:37.400 I'm yeah, your feeling's on it. 2:30:37.879 --> 2:30:41.480 Yeah, So before we got on, I just was like, 2:30:41.480 --> 2:30:44.119 I need to almost refresh myself on everything that happened 2:30:44.120 --> 2:30:47.400 with his impeachment. And at the time, I was covering 2:30:47.440 --> 2:30:49.440 it like turn of this crew, like wall to wall 2:30:49.480 --> 2:30:52.800 coverage every single second of the impeachment hearing. And I 2:30:52.879 --> 2:30:55.800 don't think unless you were paying that much, you know, 2:30:55.920 --> 2:30:58.880 intimate attention to everything that was going on, people are 2:30:58.959 --> 2:31:03.160 fully capable of under standing just like how wide ranging 2:31:03.320 --> 2:31:06.560 and frankly insane the entire episode was. 2:31:06.959 --> 2:31:09.560 And I think because of that, it was really easy. 2:31:09.240 --> 2:31:12.480 For Ken Paxon's defenders, both in the in teachment hearing 2:31:12.520 --> 2:31:13.480 and you know, just. 2:31:13.520 --> 2:31:14.920 Outside in the political realm. 2:31:15.040 --> 2:31:19.119 It was much easier for them to take this complicated 2:31:19.680 --> 2:31:22.280 scandal and turn it into just a oh, this is 2:31:22.280 --> 2:31:24.440 a witch hunt. They're going after Ken Paxon because they 2:31:24.480 --> 2:31:28.119 can't get to you. It's worth also backtracking here. Yeah, 2:31:28.200 --> 2:31:30.920 there are a significant number of people, because of this 2:31:31.000 --> 2:31:35.200 Tim Dunn and Ferris Wilkes operation, that believe fundamentally that 2:31:35.280 --> 2:31:39.080 the Texas legislature and state has been under the control 2:31:39.320 --> 2:31:42.240 secretly of Democrats for more than like twenty years. I mean, 2:31:42.640 --> 2:31:45.840 this is this is how successful this is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:31:45.879 --> 2:31:49.480 it sounds insane, but it's the truth. And so you know, 2:31:49.879 --> 2:31:53.640 when Ken Paxton gets impeached, he becomes again this stand 2:31:53.680 --> 2:31:57.080 in for everything that these people, you know, fear about, 2:31:57.080 --> 2:32:00.360 this supposed democratic rhino cabal. And I think that that, 2:32:00.840 --> 2:32:05.160 coupled with just like the complexity and often absurdity of 2:32:05.200 --> 2:32:09.039 the impeachment charges more broadly, really insulates him in a 2:32:09.080 --> 2:32:11.120 way that turns him into a folk hero once he 2:32:11.200 --> 2:32:12.119 survives the impeachment. 2:32:12.480 --> 2:32:15.520 Great, I mean, yeah, that's that's as much sense as 2:32:15.560 --> 2:32:18.520 I think can be made of the Kiin Paxton story. Sure, yeah, 2:32:18.879 --> 2:32:19.680 that makes sense. 2:32:20.120 --> 2:32:21.680 Yeah, I mean it's this whole thing, you know, And 2:32:22.400 --> 2:32:24.600 I've noticed this even just in my time covering tech 2:32:24.640 --> 2:32:27.280 of politics is there used to be a moment where 2:32:27.360 --> 2:32:30.320 if we wrote a negative story about someone there were 2:32:30.560 --> 2:32:33.240 maybe not consequences, but like people cared. 2:32:33.400 --> 2:32:36.279 And now it's not only that people don't care, it's 2:32:36.280 --> 2:32:38.040 to be attacked by the quote unquote. 2:32:38.080 --> 2:32:41.080 You know, liberal media is in and of itself a 2:32:41.120 --> 2:32:43.320 badge of honor that like, yeah. 2:32:43.080 --> 2:32:45.840 Yeah, and I think that he really exemplifies that. 2:32:45.680 --> 2:32:46.560 They're waiting for it. 2:32:46.760 --> 2:32:47.680 Yeah. 2:32:47.959 --> 2:32:53.440 So, how would you describe kin Paxton as an attorney general? 2:32:53.600 --> 2:32:56.039 Which is kind of because obviously he's a state legislator 2:32:56.040 --> 2:32:59.039 too before that, but like he's most known and has 2:32:59.040 --> 2:33:00.600 been most influential as the ag. 2:33:01.200 --> 2:33:02.960 How would you describe his work? 2:33:03.600 --> 2:33:08.440 I think that he has done a remarkable job of 2:33:08.520 --> 2:33:14.160 advancing a once non explicit but now explicit Christian nationalist 2:33:14.200 --> 2:33:18.800 movements that is very far right in its views on immigration, 2:33:19.440 --> 2:33:24.080 LGBTQ rights, abortion, and basically every other social issue. I mean, 2:33:24.080 --> 2:33:27.840 he has used his office, as you know, at times 2:33:27.879 --> 2:33:29.600 a pretty blunt instrument in this. 2:33:29.879 --> 2:33:31.920 I guess the lack of a better term, culture war. 2:33:32.440 --> 2:33:37.600 Has used it to investigate political groups on the left, 2:33:38.000 --> 2:33:42.400 has used it to advance twenty twenty election fraud, conspiracy theories. 2:33:42.400 --> 2:33:44.600 I mean named something within the hodge you know, the 2:33:44.600 --> 2:33:46.920 Hodgepodge of right wing kind of culture war issues. 2:33:46.959 --> 2:33:49.039 And I guarantee you he has used his officer being. 2:33:49.600 --> 2:33:54.039 Yeah, there's some questionable decisions that attorneys under him have 2:33:54.200 --> 2:33:59.080 made about some specific relevant cases, including a pedophile that's 2:33:59.120 --> 2:34:02.080 one of the biggest most recent scandals against Ken. I 2:34:02.080 --> 2:34:03.959 talk about this on the ed that we did a 2:34:04.000 --> 2:34:07.039 week or so ago, And one of the things that 2:34:07.080 --> 2:34:09.280 you have to like encounter looking at him is that 2:34:09.360 --> 2:34:12.600 throughout all of these horrible things that he and people 2:34:12.800 --> 2:34:15.600 have done kind of as part of his office, none 2:34:15.640 --> 2:34:18.160 of it has knocked him out. Like and you get 2:34:18.160 --> 2:34:20.440 interesting quotes from different people who have run against him 2:34:20.560 --> 2:34:22.879 that are all variants of like, well, I had all 2:34:22.920 --> 2:34:25.120 of these opposition files, but also we had to make 2:34:25.120 --> 2:34:26.959 a decision of like how much to talk about it 2:34:27.000 --> 2:34:29.080 because there's so much out here, and like, what more 2:34:29.080 --> 2:34:31.200 do you say about Ken? If you're trying to run 2:34:31.240 --> 2:34:31.680 against him? 2:34:31.720 --> 2:34:32.280 It could matter? 2:34:32.360 --> 2:34:34.800 Now, Yeah, I mean I think that he has a 2:34:34.840 --> 2:34:38.320 similar you know ethos as Trump, where it's like, yeah, 2:34:38.440 --> 2:34:40.680 people have heard so much about him for so long 2:34:40.760 --> 2:34:44.320 that they just kind of you know, at least amongst 2:34:44.360 --> 2:34:46.120 amongst a lot of the Republicans, they've been able to 2:34:46.120 --> 2:34:48.280 just tune it out entirely. I mean, going back to 2:34:48.360 --> 2:34:50.920 his impeachment, which you know, that is an episode onto 2:34:50.959 --> 2:34:52.120 itself everything that happened. 2:34:52.120 --> 2:34:55.039 But the people who were who brought. 2:34:54.760 --> 2:34:59.240 About Ken Paxson's impeachment were top deputies in the Oag's office. 2:34:59.400 --> 2:35:01.400 One of them would is almost confirmed for a federal 2:35:01.480 --> 2:35:03.960 judge ship in like twenty nineteen, but was deemed too 2:35:04.000 --> 2:35:06.960 anti trans at the time to survive a Senate confirmation. 2:35:07.080 --> 2:35:07.960 Here, my god. 2:35:08.160 --> 2:35:09.840 Another one of these guys went on to be a 2:35:09.879 --> 2:35:12.280 vice president and Alliance Defending Freedom, the group that you know, 2:35:12.280 --> 2:35:13.840 I been kind of the tip of the legal spear 2:35:13.879 --> 2:35:15.040 in the Christian nationalist movement. 2:35:15.320 --> 2:35:17.160 Yeah so not the Wokes. 2:35:17.480 --> 2:35:20.600 No, Arguably, some of the most right wing people now 2:35:20.680 --> 2:35:22.960 argue some of the most right wing people in the 2:35:22.959 --> 2:35:23.800 world at this point. 2:35:23.879 --> 2:35:26.119 Yeah, they would argue some of the most right wing. 2:35:25.959 --> 2:35:28.560 People in yes, right, And I mean we're talking, you know, 2:35:28.720 --> 2:35:32.680 like the platonic ideal of a Texas Ranger, like people 2:35:32.760 --> 2:35:35.560 who by all extent and purposes should be people who 2:35:35.560 --> 2:35:39.360 are taking very seriously by the Republican voters in Texas, 2:35:39.640 --> 2:35:43.520 and yet yeah, he again because of you know, just 2:35:43.959 --> 2:35:45.000 there's something about Ken. 2:35:45.040 --> 2:35:46.840 I don't know, man, that's. 2:35:46.680 --> 2:35:49.600 So fucking weird. There's something about Ken. 2:35:50.320 --> 2:35:53.560 And there's also something about the sponsors of this show, 2:35:53.640 --> 2:35:55.760 who we're going to go back to for a minute 2:35:55.840 --> 2:36:10.360 and then we'll return. All right, we're back. So Kim 2:36:10.400 --> 2:36:12.800 Paxton is currently running for Senate. He just defeated John 2:36:12.879 --> 2:36:17.000 Cornyn for the primary and he's running against Democrat James Tellerico. 2:36:17.240 --> 2:36:20.560 And I brought this up on Edie last week. But 2:36:20.760 --> 2:36:24.800 it's close, and at least according to one pole, currently 2:36:25.120 --> 2:36:28.200 Tellerico is ahead one pole isn't head by a good bit. 2:36:28.520 --> 2:36:30.400 Most of what I've seen has them like pretty much 2:36:30.440 --> 2:36:33.880 neck and neck. There's a few big differences with this 2:36:33.959 --> 2:36:37.760 election so far and all of Kin's previous elections. One 2:36:37.840 --> 2:36:41.120 is that he does not have a gigantic advantage in funding, 2:36:41.120 --> 2:36:43.080 and in fact, tell Rico currently has a lot more 2:36:43.120 --> 2:36:46.120 money on hand. And the other is that, at least 2:36:46.200 --> 2:36:48.840 per some of the most recent polling, tell Rico is 2:36:48.879 --> 2:36:52.440 actually beating him with non college educated voters. That's the 2:36:52.440 --> 2:36:56.520 heartland for Kim Paxton. So yeah, it's very unclear what's 2:36:56.520 --> 2:36:58.440 going to happen again. I would say it's smarter to 2:36:58.480 --> 2:37:01.360 say this is a neck and neck then tall Rico 2:37:01.480 --> 2:37:03.879 is ahead. But yeah, how did we get here? 2:37:04.240 --> 2:37:06.760 I mean, I think a couple of important things. One, 2:37:06.920 --> 2:37:09.720 James tell Rico has I think that he has done 2:37:09.720 --> 2:37:11.760 it good. And maybe this is just the religion reporter 2:37:11.879 --> 2:37:13.960 in me. I think he has done a good job 2:37:14.000 --> 2:37:17.920 of finding palable messaging around Christianity in ways that like 2:37:17.920 --> 2:37:23.000 can appeal to the you know, republican leading white Christian 2:37:23.120 --> 2:37:27.160 voter of Texas. That coupled with his kind of you know, 2:37:27.240 --> 2:37:30.760 campaigning frequently on you know, it's not left versus right, 2:37:30.800 --> 2:37:33.280 it's top versus bottom. That kind of stuff I think 2:37:33.360 --> 2:37:36.480 is playing really well here. The other thing about Paxton, though, 2:37:36.520 --> 2:37:38.600 is that you know, we've I've mentioned Tim Dunn and 2:37:38.640 --> 2:37:40.879 Ferris Wilkes in this conversition a bunch of times because 2:37:40.879 --> 2:37:43.000 they really are crucial to this story. They both have 2:37:43.400 --> 2:37:46.160 basically entirely pulled out from supporting it in the Senate. 2:37:46.400 --> 2:37:48.520 Yeah, that is really interesting. 2:37:48.920 --> 2:37:53.240 Ferris Wilkes as a result of some very long story. 2:37:53.240 --> 2:37:55.080 But in twenty twenty three, there was reporting I did 2:37:55.080 --> 2:37:57.520 about their network having, you know, meeting with Nick Fuentes 2:37:57.640 --> 2:38:00.680 and having a bunch of ties to other pretty avowed 2:38:00.800 --> 2:38:03.439 white nationalists. There was a big fallout in that network, 2:38:03.640 --> 2:38:06.680 and that from what I understand, drou Ferris Wilkes out 2:38:06.680 --> 2:38:10.080 of politics entirely, and at the same time, Tim Dunn 2:38:10.720 --> 2:38:13.760 was adamantly opposed to Ken Paxton running for Senates from 2:38:13.800 --> 2:38:16.720 everything that we've heard, and so it wasn't until literally, 2:38:16.720 --> 2:38:18.800 I think on Monday, Tim Dunn's one of the super 2:38:18.800 --> 2:38:21.400 PACs spent one hundred thousand dollars to send out text 2:38:21.400 --> 2:38:24.560 messages against Tallariico, that we saw any kind of movement 2:38:24.680 --> 2:38:27.760 from Tim Dunn or Ferris Wilkes in support of Paxton. 2:38:27.840 --> 2:38:29.560 And I think that that does actually kind of speak 2:38:29.600 --> 2:38:32.440 to their level of concern that you know, they have 2:38:32.520 --> 2:38:35.600 sat out all of this for almost two years now 2:38:35.600 --> 2:38:38.480 and suddenly with three months ago, are getting engaged. 2:38:38.560 --> 2:38:42.880 So yeah, it's it's it's really been kind of stirring 2:38:42.959 --> 2:38:45.640 to see I'm not resigned as I usually am in 2:38:45.680 --> 2:38:48.080 a Kin pax An election to like, well, clearly at 2:38:48.080 --> 2:38:50.800 some point he's just going to like leap frog ahead 2:38:50.800 --> 2:38:53.680 of this fucker and wind up back in office, is he? 2:38:53.720 --> 2:38:56.440 And maybe that'll happen, but it doesn't feel like it. 2:38:56.440 --> 2:38:58.640 It doesn't feel like that's the only thing that could happen, 2:38:58.680 --> 2:38:59.520 I should say. 2:38:59.560 --> 2:39:02.039 Right, And you know, to be fair, there's this kind 2:39:02.120 --> 2:39:05.720 of myth that Texas is secretly blue, if it's just 2:39:05.720 --> 2:39:07.440 a voter turnout, probably that's not true. 2:39:07.600 --> 2:39:07.959 It's not. 2:39:08.360 --> 2:39:12.119 No, Texas is solidly read in order to win statewide here, 2:39:12.160 --> 2:39:14.080 Like there's a reason why Beto when he ran here, 2:39:14.120 --> 2:39:15.640 he went to every single one of our two hundred 2:39:15.640 --> 2:39:17.800 and fifty four counties. Yeah, it's because you have to 2:39:18.600 --> 2:39:21.839 really turn out world voters. 2:39:21.600 --> 2:39:23.440 And try to make personal connections with him. 2:39:23.640 --> 2:39:28.119 Yeah, exactly. Because of that, it's easy for Republicans in. 2:39:28.080 --> 2:39:31.480 The state to wave away any kind of for momentum 2:39:31.680 --> 2:39:33.000 from a Democratic. 2:39:32.520 --> 2:39:33.320 State white candidate. 2:39:33.400 --> 2:39:35.120 But if you look at the polling in this race 2:39:35.200 --> 2:39:38.480 between Tallarrican Paxson, like Tall Rico has been pulling way 2:39:38.480 --> 2:39:42.560 ahead of where Beto was, where any you know, comparable 2:39:43.000 --> 2:39:45.960 Democratic state white candidate has been over the last you know, 2:39:46.000 --> 2:39:49.959 thirty years. And I think that that kind of you know, 2:39:50.240 --> 2:39:54.000 disbelief amongst Republicans that this state could ever elect to 2:39:54.080 --> 2:39:58.440 Tall Rico or flip blue. I think is potentially left 2:39:58.440 --> 2:40:01.039 them kind of asleep at the wheel and made a 2:40:01.040 --> 2:40:04.240 lot of them much more willing to support someone like 2:40:04.320 --> 2:40:07.840 Paxton despite his many flaws, as canit. 2:40:08.000 --> 2:40:12.080 So I guess as we close out here, is there 2:40:12.080 --> 2:40:14.160 anything else you wanted to say about Ken anything we 2:40:14.160 --> 2:40:16.360 didn't get to that you think is really important to 2:40:16.360 --> 2:40:16.840 talk about? 2:40:17.680 --> 2:40:19.480 I mean, do we have forty five more minutes we 2:40:19.520 --> 2:40:20.840 can talk about his impeachment? 2:40:20.959 --> 2:40:23.720 But yeah, I mean get a little. 2:40:23.480 --> 2:40:25.279 Bit, you know, I'm just going to read my notes, 2:40:25.840 --> 2:40:28.840 just just a few fun things. Sure, fast food joints 2:40:28.879 --> 2:40:32.120 in all capital. Yes, Walter Junior from breaking bad with 2:40:32.160 --> 2:40:33.120 somehow involved. 2:40:35.320 --> 2:40:40.560 There's a lot there, not directly involved, but his family. 2:40:42.120 --> 2:40:45.200 It was insane and yeah awesome. 2:40:45.280 --> 2:40:47.080 Yeah, oh man, is there is there any reading you'd 2:40:47.120 --> 2:40:50.040 recommend to the listeners on the contacts and impeachment? 2:40:50.200 --> 2:40:53.480 Honestly, there's four thousand pages of court documents. 2:40:53.520 --> 2:40:54.959 I think that's it. I mean someone's got to do 2:40:55.000 --> 2:40:55.640 a story about it. 2:40:55.680 --> 2:40:58.080 I mean, okay, okay, well maybe we'll maybe we'll hire 2:40:58.120 --> 2:40:58.600 you to do that. 2:40:58.720 --> 2:41:03.000 If we can't, yeah, we'll get Won't Junior on it? 2:41:03.040 --> 2:41:05.640 So, yeah, you know, I did want to say because 2:41:05.640 --> 2:41:08.040 it's very wrong when people think that Texas is like 2:41:08.080 --> 2:41:11.080 a secret blue state. But it's also not read in 2:41:11.160 --> 2:41:13.439 the way most of the red and it isn't necessarily 2:41:13.440 --> 2:41:15.480 read in the way that that people think of it, 2:41:15.480 --> 2:41:17.560 because like I think back to my family who are like, 2:41:17.879 --> 2:41:21.080 we're like solidly read and would never vote for a Democrat. 2:41:21.520 --> 2:41:24.280 But like my mom didn't own guns and didn't really 2:41:24.360 --> 2:41:26.879 think they should be legal, and was very much like 2:41:26.920 --> 2:41:31.039 pro abortion. She was culturally a Republican, And that's like 2:41:31.120 --> 2:41:33.840 an important thing like that. It's not just a belief system, 2:41:33.840 --> 2:41:36.640 it's that that is your culture and your team. And 2:41:36.720 --> 2:41:38.480 so much of the difficulty is there are a lot 2:41:38.520 --> 2:41:42.000 of people in Texas who'se values personally certainly do not 2:41:42.040 --> 2:41:45.480 align with a man like Ken Paxton, but breaking rank 2:41:45.640 --> 2:41:48.560 is not a doable thing for a lot of them. 2:41:48.680 --> 2:41:49.560 I don't know how else to. 2:41:49.480 --> 2:41:52.080 Describe it, Like it's it would be like getting someone 2:41:52.080 --> 2:41:54.200 who was born and raised rooting for the Packers to 2:41:54.360 --> 2:41:57.480 like support the Dallas Cowboys in a game against the 2:41:57.520 --> 2:42:00.720 Packers or something like. It's that fucking kind of mindset 2:42:00.840 --> 2:42:01.840 in a lot of ways. 2:42:02.200 --> 2:42:04.160 Yeah, I mean I think that the other thing about 2:42:04.160 --> 2:42:07.039 it is kind of the ethos of Texas politics for 2:42:07.080 --> 2:42:13.160 the longest time has been this real antipathy towards you know, DC, 2:42:13.680 --> 2:42:15.600 Like one of the things that it's it's always been 2:42:15.680 --> 2:42:17.960 kind of you know, we're not DC, and like kind 2:42:17.959 --> 2:42:20.480 of the circus of it all. It plays here differently. 2:42:20.480 --> 2:42:22.160 There's circus here, but it's a different circus. 2:42:22.200 --> 2:42:23.920 I guess. So what you have is like a lot 2:42:23.920 --> 2:42:25.920 of these people. Again, the other thing about Texas is. 2:42:25.920 --> 2:42:28.400 It's just so dam big, Like there are parts of 2:42:28.440 --> 2:42:30.840 Texas that are closer like there's a part of Textar, 2:42:30.879 --> 2:42:32.959 Canada that's closer to Chicago than it is. They'll passo 2:42:33.040 --> 2:42:35.640 and I think that like people, yeah, really don't understand 2:42:35.680 --> 2:42:37.760 what that does to the politics here, as far as 2:42:37.800 --> 2:42:41.560 just like making people view politics as this really far 2:42:41.640 --> 2:42:44.320 off thing off in the distance that like it's like 2:42:44.320 --> 2:42:46.560 a libertarian almost like you know, don't don't mess with 2:42:46.560 --> 2:42:48.920 me and I won't engage with you kind of ordeal. 2:42:49.360 --> 2:42:52.560 And as I think that the state has become more dcified, 2:42:52.600 --> 2:42:54.520 for lack of a better term, I think that that's 2:42:54.520 --> 2:42:57.400 starting to really test some of these you know, some 2:42:57.440 --> 2:42:59.120 of that kind of mentality you were speaking to and 2:42:59.160 --> 2:43:00.879 then you add on you know, well, the fact that 2:43:00.920 --> 2:43:02.840 the schools here are just really in bad shape, or 2:43:02.879 --> 2:43:05.920 doing school voucher legislation, all of these things that like 2:43:06.520 --> 2:43:09.840 are actually rural issues are being kind of flipped on 2:43:09.879 --> 2:43:10.200 their head. 2:43:10.240 --> 2:43:11.440 And I think that that has the. 2:43:11.400 --> 2:43:14.120 Potential maybe not to flip those voters, but if enough 2:43:14.120 --> 2:43:15.600 of them stay home and you. 2:43:15.560 --> 2:43:18.200 See enough energy in the cities, like that isn't enough. 2:43:18.440 --> 2:43:21.880 Yeah, so yeah, that is enough. And like as individuals, 2:43:21.879 --> 2:43:25.039 some of those people can flip on a candidate. You know, 2:43:25.080 --> 2:43:27.880 they might not flip party wise, they're certainly a lot 2:43:27.959 --> 2:43:30.360 less likely to vote for like a Democrat for president. 2:43:30.400 --> 2:43:32.480 That may be completely out of the question, but you 2:43:32.600 --> 2:43:34.280 might be able to get them to vote for a 2:43:34.320 --> 2:43:37.760 senator or something like that. Like that's not impossible for everybody. 2:43:37.840 --> 2:43:40.480 And it certainly looks like I think he's got about 2:43:40.480 --> 2:43:43.680 four or five percent of Republican voters voting for him 2:43:43.760 --> 2:43:44.160 right now. 2:43:44.400 --> 2:43:45.959 Yeah, I mean he's got a lot of crossover. 2:43:46.320 --> 2:43:48.800 Yeah, which is a good amount of crossover, by the way, 2:43:48.879 --> 2:43:51.600 Like that's low and objective numbers, but it's pretty good 2:43:51.680 --> 2:43:55.480 for a candidate in Texas, right right, right, cool, All right, Well, 2:43:55.560 --> 2:43:58.320 that has been a brief version of the Kim Paxton story. 2:43:58.400 --> 2:44:01.320 We'll have more about kpas in the future, and hopefully 2:44:01.360 --> 2:44:04.080 we'll have Robert back as well. You have anything you 2:44:04.080 --> 2:44:05.440 want to plug before we end here. 2:44:05.680 --> 2:44:09.760 Just I'm on Blue Sky at Robert Downdon. Subscribe to 2:44:09.800 --> 2:44:11.760 Texas Monthly for twenty five dollars. You can get two 2:44:11.840 --> 2:44:15.800 years of print magazine and digital editions. So good, best 2:44:15.800 --> 2:44:17.160 deal on journal awesome. 2:44:17.400 --> 2:44:18.040 Check that out. 2:44:18.120 --> 2:44:22.400 Please do sign up and yeah, we'll be back probably tomorrow. Anyway, 2:44:23.240 --> 2:44:24.040 go do something else. 2:44:24.080 --> 2:44:41.640 Now, this is it could happen here in Executive Disorder, 2:44:41.760 --> 2:44:44.400 our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, 2:44:44.440 --> 2:44:47.039 the crumbling world, and what this means for you. I 2:44:47.120 --> 2:44:51.520 am Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by Nia Wong, James Stout, 2:44:51.640 --> 2:44:56.520 Robert Evans, and special correspondent Margaret Kiljoy. 2:44:56.080 --> 2:44:57.760 Who want my correspondent Hi. 2:44:59.320 --> 2:45:04.480 For some small things. White House Press Secretary Carolyn Levitt 2:45:04.520 --> 2:45:07.880 will be stepping down to spend more time with her family. 2:45:08.640 --> 2:45:11.920 At twenty seven, she was the youngest person ever appointed 2:45:11.959 --> 2:45:16.600 to the position. Now, I don't comment on women's age 2:45:16.680 --> 2:45:20.640 or appearance, and yeah, I don't comment on that. 2:45:21.879 --> 2:45:24.400 Yeah, I do want to mention that when we say 2:45:24.400 --> 2:45:26.360 stepping down to spend more time with her family. This 2:45:26.400 --> 2:45:28.039 is the first time I've ever seen this where that 2:45:28.120 --> 2:45:31.760 is actually true. This is true, she did have a baby, 2:45:31.800 --> 2:45:34.879 actually legitimately doing that and not. 2:45:36.120 --> 2:45:38.520 Yeah, I just assumed you are speaking euphemistically about like 2:45:38.560 --> 2:45:41.400 basically fired she did have, not a euphemism. 2:45:41.600 --> 2:45:43.720 Actually actually some seems to really like her. 2:45:44.200 --> 2:45:50.080 Yeah, unfortunately she sucks, but yeah, just just just to clarify, 2:45:50.360 --> 2:45:52.120 not an euphemism, actually doing that. 2:45:53.040 --> 2:45:56.440 On the ninth anniversary of the Unite the Right rally, 2:45:57.160 --> 2:46:00.119 a former employee of the Southern Poverty Law Center has 2:46:00.120 --> 2:46:05.400 been arrested on fraud charges for payments to informants within 2:46:05.800 --> 2:46:12.000 white nationalist organizations. We talked about the indictment against SBOC 2:46:12.120 --> 2:46:15.800 the organization a few months ago. This is the first 2:46:16.200 --> 2:46:21.800 charge against a specific individual. For some other small items. 2:46:21.840 --> 2:46:23.039 Let's throw to James Stout. 2:46:23.720 --> 2:46:26.560 I'm going to start by saying some small things. The 2:46:26.600 --> 2:46:29.720 Texas Land Commissioner has sent a cease and assist to 2:46:29.920 --> 2:46:34.040 CBP Customs of Border Protection, claiming they illegally cleared state 2:46:34.120 --> 2:46:34.920 land to begin. 2:46:34.760 --> 2:46:36.640 Border wall construction. Quote. 2:46:36.720 --> 2:46:39.400 Texas sovereignty will not be infringed. By failure to follow 2:46:39.480 --> 2:46:43.360 established protocol, said Commissioner Buckingham, quote, My office has a 2:46:43.360 --> 2:46:46.080 proven track record of strong border enforcement, and I applaud 2:46:46.120 --> 2:46:48.879 efforts to protect our border. I am committed to maintaining 2:46:48.920 --> 2:46:51.560 a positive relationship with CBP, but we will not allow 2:46:51.640 --> 2:46:54.320 rogue actors who breached our agreement to undermine the incredible 2:46:54.360 --> 2:46:54.720 work we. 2:46:54.680 --> 2:46:55.520 Do for Texas. 2:46:56.120 --> 2:47:00.000 The second quotation I've included there was oddly missing from 2:47:00.080 --> 2:47:03.920 lots of people's commentary on this, because I think the 2:47:04.040 --> 2:47:07.720 people who make money from clicks or just have a 2:47:07.760 --> 2:47:10.120 relationship with clicks which is not healthy or good for them, 2:47:10.400 --> 2:47:12.800 wanted to portray this as like Texas is going woke 2:47:12.879 --> 2:47:16.680 and fighting Trump, and no they're not. Don't be silly. 2:47:17.360 --> 2:47:20.760 Read the thing. It's in the press release. Secondly, Al 2:47:20.879 --> 2:47:26.240 Monitor reported that the United States was withdrawing its last 2:47:26.240 --> 2:47:30.640 forces from a bill amidst Iran's campaign strikes on the region. 2:47:30.800 --> 2:47:33.560 The United States has a pre agreed withdrawal with a 2:47:33.640 --> 2:47:37.760 deadline of September thirtieth, but another source told The New 2:47:37.800 --> 2:47:40.080 Arab that they had not left and that they had 2:47:40.120 --> 2:47:44.760 relocated them closer to the consulate. So the United States 2:47:44.800 --> 2:47:48.080 will be withdrawing from this region, probably relatively soon. But 2:47:48.440 --> 2:47:51.800 it seems that at the time they didn't leave as 2:47:51.840 --> 2:47:56.520 people had feared, but they relocated. Keeping with the theme 2:47:56.600 --> 2:47:59.560 of the United States war in Iran, CNN reported last 2:47:59.560 --> 2:48:02.040 week that the Kentigon was looking for outside the box 2:48:02.120 --> 2:48:05.080 thinking in its war with Iran. Quote, we are looking 2:48:05.080 --> 2:48:07.760 for new and creative and unconventional ways to pressure and 2:48:07.800 --> 2:48:11.480 punish Iran, an officer in the United States Central Commands 2:48:11.520 --> 2:48:14.040 Intelligence Branch wrote in a message sent Wednesday into a 2:48:14.080 --> 2:48:16.720 broad group of military analysts. According to a source familiar 2:48:16.720 --> 2:48:19.440 with a message, this is fucking spectacular, right. 2:48:19.720 --> 2:48:22.400 It sounds like a San Francisco startup trying to make 2:48:22.480 --> 2:48:24.279 like AI powered coffee or something. 2:48:24.600 --> 2:48:26.760 I had to shake up the coffee industry. 2:48:27.040 --> 2:48:30.880 Yeah, can we disrupt the bombing Iran marketing guys? 2:48:31.520 --> 2:48:34.600 Yeah, move fast and break things in the in the 2:48:34.640 --> 2:48:38.119 regime of collective punishment. Yeah, it's what we're doing now. 2:48:37.920 --> 2:48:40.000 Except that moving fast and breaking things was kind of 2:48:40.000 --> 2:48:43.360 plan A. So God knows what will come out of this, 2:48:43.720 --> 2:48:45.240 but I can't wait to see. I'm sure it'll be 2:48:45.280 --> 2:48:48.800 exciting and fun. I received news from the PAK that's 2:48:48.840 --> 2:48:54.400 the Kurdistan Freedom party, different party from PGAAK, the Kurdistan 2:48:54.520 --> 2:48:58.279 Free Life Party. They let me know that an assassination 2:48:58.320 --> 2:49:02.039 attempt was made in a bill. Again, it's mukri Yas Danpana. 2:49:02.160 --> 2:49:05.360 He's the son of their leader, the leader of the 2:49:05.400 --> 2:49:06.600 Kurdistan Freedom Party. 2:49:06.720 --> 2:49:06.879 Right. 2:49:07.560 --> 2:49:10.360 He was injured and he's currently under medical care in 2:49:10.400 --> 2:49:13.039 a hospital. They didn't want to make a formal statement 2:49:13.080 --> 2:49:16.000 about this either than clarifying that that had happened. It 2:49:16.000 --> 2:49:19.600 appears someone tried to shoot him in a bill. A bill, 2:49:19.640 --> 2:49:22.560 if you're not familiar, is the capital of the Kurdistan 2:49:22.600 --> 2:49:25.600 Autonomous Region of Iraq. Then this is not the first 2:49:25.640 --> 2:49:28.160 time that I'm just going to go ahead and assume 2:49:28.200 --> 2:49:31.960 that this is an Iranian state linked assassination attempt. I 2:49:32.000 --> 2:49:34.280 think that's a reasonable assumption to make. Not the first 2:49:34.320 --> 2:49:37.080 time that this happened in a bill, and it is 2:49:37.120 --> 2:49:41.440 pretty clear that this is the Iranian government continuing its 2:49:41.480 --> 2:49:49.160 attempt to punish Eastern Kurdish parties for the United States aggression. Right, 2:49:49.240 --> 2:49:51.520 which we can draw a line all the way back 2:49:51.560 --> 2:49:55.000 to the reporting we did late winter early spring of 2:49:55.040 --> 2:49:58.000 this year on people who were suggesting that there was 2:49:58.040 --> 2:50:01.080 going to be a Kurdish ground component to the United 2:50:01.120 --> 2:50:03.720 States war in Iran, which as of yet there has 2:50:03.800 --> 2:50:07.600 not been. This has continued to have consequences for these parties. Right, 2:50:08.400 --> 2:50:10.160 and then finally from me, I want to talk about 2:50:10.160 --> 2:50:13.160 these two executive orders. The President has written a pair 2:50:13.240 --> 2:50:15.640 of executive orders this week aimed at reducing the number 2:50:15.680 --> 2:50:19.359 of people eligible for citizenship by birth right. And basically 2:50:19.440 --> 2:50:21.959 what they've done here, and I would suggest to people 2:50:22.000 --> 2:50:24.080 wanting more context and I'm able to give here, go 2:50:24.160 --> 2:50:26.760 back to our Supreme Court special episode of ED they've 2:50:26.760 --> 2:50:29.360 did a few weeks ago where I talked at length 2:50:29.840 --> 2:50:32.879 about the fourteenth Amendment and the one kim Ark case. 2:50:33.560 --> 2:50:37.560 They've taken the exemptions that I outlined there and they've 2:50:37.560 --> 2:50:40.400 tried to kind of stick a crow bar in there 2:50:40.400 --> 2:50:42.120 and leave of them open as far as it can 2:50:42.600 --> 2:50:44.680 would be the way that I would describe it. And 2:50:44.680 --> 2:50:49.040 particularly they've looked at the exemptions for foreign diplomats and 2:50:49.120 --> 2:50:53.000 for invading armies, one for vessels in the United States 2:50:53.080 --> 2:50:56.240 waters PA's the most significant one is the one that 2:50:56.360 --> 2:50:57.360 is meant for invading armies. 2:50:57.400 --> 2:50:58.560 And when I say invading. 2:50:58.280 --> 2:50:59.800 Armies, I want to be clear what I mean. This 2:50:59.879 --> 2:51:03.640 is like Mexico decides that eighteen forty eight wasn't the 2:51:03.760 --> 2:51:06.320 end and they want some of that landbag, so they 2:51:06.360 --> 2:51:09.720 decide to invade the United States. They push up into 2:51:09.720 --> 2:51:13.560 San Diego. Right, they say they're in, They've liberated Cardiff 2:51:13.560 --> 2:51:16.760 by the Sea, and one of their soldiers gives birth. 2:51:17.080 --> 2:51:17.960 Well, they're here. 2:51:18.600 --> 2:51:21.120 That Baily would not be a United States citizen because 2:51:21.160 --> 2:51:24.320 that person was engaged in an invasion of the United States. Right. 2:51:24.800 --> 2:51:29.320 What the Trump administration here has gone for is adding 2:51:29.480 --> 2:51:32.080 quote either parent of that person is an alien enemy, 2:51:32.120 --> 2:51:35.199 defined to include any member of a designated foreign terrorist 2:51:35.280 --> 2:51:40.199 organization under a USC eleven eighty nine, especially designated global terrorists. 2:51:41.000 --> 2:51:43.879 Now we have to remember they have added a number 2:51:43.920 --> 2:51:46.879 of groups to the FDO list, and that they have 2:51:46.920 --> 2:51:49.400 attempted to define people as members of those groups using 2:51:49.440 --> 2:51:53.840 absolute bullshit criteria like having a tattoo. Right, That is 2:51:54.000 --> 2:51:56.560 the one that might be what they are going for here. 2:51:56.640 --> 2:51:58.119 I if I had one where I suspect they will 2:51:58.120 --> 2:52:00.520 try and use this en mass, it will be that 2:52:00.560 --> 2:52:03.760 one using that same criteria that the earlier used to 2:52:03.800 --> 2:52:06.680 send people to Si Good right near Olsalblor. They also 2:52:06.680 --> 2:52:08.800 added a broader away of people who have worked to 2:52:08.920 --> 2:52:12.760 work for foreign governments. They also add quote, the person 2:52:12.920 --> 2:52:15.280 is born in a territory or territorial water the United 2:52:15.320 --> 2:52:18.600 States to a citizenship is not conferred by federal statute. 2:52:19.000 --> 2:52:22.600 That refers to American Samoa. Now we're covering this next 2:52:22.640 --> 2:52:25.920 week actually in an episode with Carlos Belio Polanco, but 2:52:26.640 --> 2:52:28.920 just very briefly, there is actually a bill to remove 2:52:28.920 --> 2:52:31.440 birth or a citizenship from people in American It's not 2:52:31.480 --> 2:52:33.439 going to go anywhere, but it just it's a signal 2:52:33.959 --> 2:52:35.600 of where the right is out on this, which is 2:52:35.600 --> 2:52:38.880 they're trying to remove as access to being an American from 2:52:38.920 --> 2:52:44.440 as many people as possible United States American the second 2:52:44.840 --> 2:52:47.600 egective order to take to swing what the right cause 2:52:47.720 --> 2:52:51.320 birth tourism. Right birth tourism has been a thing on 2:52:51.520 --> 2:52:54.039 like the VD air tendency has been obsessed with this 2:52:54.080 --> 2:52:55.880 for a long time. My Nottal quote is a lot. 2:52:55.879 --> 2:52:57.600 You can go back to an episode in November twenty 2:52:57.600 --> 2:52:59.240 twenty four they did with Sophie and Robert and you 2:52:59.240 --> 2:53:02.560 can hear us talking about the rights concern with this, 2:53:03.040 --> 2:53:05.680 that the phenomenal they're talking about represents it generously if 2:53:05.680 --> 2:53:07.520 we define it a fraction of a single percent of 2:53:07.600 --> 2:53:09.880 babies born in the United States every year. It would 2:53:09.879 --> 2:53:13.280 already be fraud to enter on a tourist visa with 2:53:13.400 --> 2:53:15.120 the intent of delivering your child here so that they 2:53:15.120 --> 2:53:17.560 could be a citizen. But nonetheless, this is kind of 2:53:17.600 --> 2:53:19.520 a bugbear for the right, and so they are attempting 2:53:19.560 --> 2:53:22.560 to clamp down on specifically, like they believe that there 2:53:22.560 --> 2:53:25.720 are these giant companies sort of shipping people in to 2:53:25.720 --> 2:53:28.600 deliver their children. It's worth noting some people do come 2:53:28.600 --> 2:53:32.280 to United States to deliver because the United States has 2:53:32.600 --> 2:53:35.240 very good medical care compared to other paths of the world. 2:53:35.400 --> 2:53:37.840 Will be it also very expensive medical care, so people 2:53:37.879 --> 2:53:40.879 who might have the means to access that might choose 2:53:40.879 --> 2:53:43.880 to come to liver or simply let's say you reside 2:53:43.920 --> 2:53:45.680 in Mexico but work in the United States and have 2:53:45.720 --> 2:53:49.200 health insurance in the United States, you might come here 2:53:49.240 --> 2:53:51.080 to liiver your baby. Right, there are reasons why people 2:53:51.160 --> 2:53:54.880 might do that. Nonetheless, it is a very limited phenomenon, 2:53:55.200 --> 2:53:56.920 but it is a thing that the right has been 2:53:56.920 --> 2:54:00.680 talking about for some time and it's shocking to see 2:54:00.680 --> 2:54:03.320 the jump administration going as to this. Again, these will 2:54:03.320 --> 2:54:04.879 wings to be challenging courte We will see. 2:54:04.760 --> 2:54:05.199 How it goes. 2:54:05.920 --> 2:54:09.240 In other news, the US Strategic Petroleum Reserve is under 2:54:09.280 --> 2:54:11.920 three hundred million barrels, which is the lowest level it 2:54:11.920 --> 2:54:14.120 has been since the US started filling it in the 2:54:14.160 --> 2:54:17.720 nineteen seventies. It was created in response to the nineteen 2:54:17.720 --> 2:54:21.600 seventies OPEC embargo. The Trump administration has been draining the 2:54:21.640 --> 2:54:24.440 strategic reserve in order to attempt to stabilize the price 2:54:24.480 --> 2:54:28.640 of oil as a result of his war in Iran. Now, 2:54:28.720 --> 2:54:32.039 the administration has stated that it will be refilling the 2:54:32.080 --> 2:54:37.000 strategic reserve next year. However, paired with Trump's statement that quote, 2:54:37.160 --> 2:54:40.759 we are low keying it. We are only semi negotiating 2:54:40.800 --> 2:54:43.080 with them. We are just watching the Ran with its 2:54:43.160 --> 2:54:45.760 hues inflation and the fact they have no money, it 2:54:45.840 --> 2:54:49.600 is unclear how the reserve would be refilled because the 2:54:49.640 --> 2:54:52.760 war does not seem to actually have a way to end. 2:54:53.400 --> 2:54:56.760 It is also unclear whether the US will succumb to 2:54:57.120 --> 2:54:59.959 likewise having no money and huge inflation in the meantime. 2:55:00.240 --> 2:55:03.120 That seems bad. Low keying it. 2:55:03.120 --> 2:55:05.440 It's not great. It's not great. One of the things 2:55:05.480 --> 2:55:07.560 I should sort of mention is that part of the 2:55:07.560 --> 2:55:11.040 reason the economy is still functioning is that the analysis 2:55:11.160 --> 2:55:14.360 from places like JP Morgan from the financial sector has 2:55:14.400 --> 2:55:16.640 been based on the fact that this war will end, 2:55:17.160 --> 2:55:19.720 and every week that it continues and every week that 2:55:19.840 --> 2:55:22.720 there seems to be no potential way for it to end, 2:55:23.000 --> 2:55:25.800 increases the likelihood that the bankers will figure out that 2:55:25.879 --> 2:55:27.920 this war is not going to end and that everything 2:55:27.959 --> 2:55:30.880 is just like this now. So that is a financial 2:55:30.879 --> 2:55:31.760 collapse warning. 2:55:32.360 --> 2:55:34.080 I feel like that's been like everyone has just been 2:55:34.120 --> 2:55:36.280 trying to figure out, like, why has this not collapsed 2:55:36.280 --> 2:55:40.400 the economy yet? And so I'm always curious your take 2:55:40.440 --> 2:55:42.800 on why hasn't this collapsed the economy yet? Because everything 2:55:42.840 --> 2:55:46.080 points to this should collapse the economy. Yeah, but it 2:55:46.160 --> 2:55:51.160 keeps stumbling on. Energy prices are skyrocketing, Yeah. 2:55:50.800 --> 2:55:53.440 Yeah, And I mean basically it's because it's not in 2:55:53.520 --> 2:55:55.880 the interest of the people who have money to believe 2:55:56.080 --> 2:55:59.160 that it will. So they're still behaving as if eventually 2:55:59.160 --> 2:56:00.880 it's going to end in actually, the prices are going 2:56:00.920 --> 2:56:04.280 to come down, and eventually everything from you know, petroleum 2:56:04.280 --> 2:56:07.280 defertilizer that comes through the shaff about is simply going 2:56:07.320 --> 2:56:10.120 to be available again. And the moment they realize that 2:56:10.160 --> 2:56:11.360 it's not the. 2:56:11.360 --> 2:56:17.800 Pyramid collapses speaking of money, Robert, So yeah, for my 2:56:17.959 --> 2:56:20.000 little thing today, I mean, it's a little thing in 2:56:20.080 --> 2:56:22.120 terms of how I guess important the story is at 2:56:22.120 --> 2:56:23.840 this point, but it's a big thing in terms of 2:56:23.879 --> 2:56:26.879 the amount of money being discussed, because. 2:56:26.879 --> 2:56:30.480 Y'all remember back when Elon Musk bought Twitter and see 2:56:30.520 --> 2:56:33.080 what he yeah, he shared it. There should be a 2:56:33.120 --> 2:56:34.439 website called Twitter Garrison. 2:56:34.600 --> 2:56:38.520 It's before your time. It's what X became. Oh X Yeah, No, 2:56:38.600 --> 2:56:40.279 I love ac the everything out the everything. 2:56:40.360 --> 2:56:40.560 Yeah. 2:56:40.640 --> 2:56:41.840 Yeah. 2:56:42.160 --> 2:56:45.560 So when when Musk bought Twitter, he promised that he 2:56:45.600 --> 2:56:47.480 was going to take for like forty billion dollars. He 2:56:47.520 --> 2:56:49.400 was going to take the company's AD revenue for about 2:56:49.400 --> 2:56:51.240 four and a half billion dollars, which is what Twitter 2:56:51.240 --> 2:56:53.800 made an AD revenue twenty twenty one, to twelve billion 2:56:53.840 --> 2:56:56.959 dollars by twenty twenty seven. Sure, and also there'd be 2:56:56.959 --> 2:56:59.680 billions more in subscription income right now, given that it 2:56:59.720 --> 2:57:03.800 is currently last I checked pretty late in twenty twenty six. Actually, 2:57:03.840 --> 2:57:06.880 we're like most of the way through the year. You 2:57:06.920 --> 2:57:09.600 would expect Twitter's AD revenue to be pretty close to 2:57:09.640 --> 2:57:13.280 twelve billion dollars, right, Like if I'm extrapolating from four 2:57:13.320 --> 2:57:15.600 and a half billion in twenty twenty one to twelve 2:57:15.640 --> 2:57:17.879 billion in twenty twenty seven, we should be somewhere on. 2:57:17.920 --> 2:57:19.200 Nine or ten billion right now. 2:57:19.200 --> 2:57:22.200 Maybe you know that's not where we are, and there's 2:57:22.240 --> 2:57:24.200 a really good article in techtered. But and the reason 2:57:24.240 --> 2:57:26.520 why we know all this is because once once Musk 2:57:26.560 --> 2:57:29.360 bought Twitter, it's not being a public company, right, so 2:57:29.400 --> 2:57:31.560 you don't have any fucking knowledge at all about really 2:57:31.560 --> 2:57:34.400 what's going on inside a private company, right in terms 2:57:34.440 --> 2:57:37.760 of it's like revenue and stuff. But because Musk recently 2:57:37.840 --> 2:57:42.680 folded X into SpaceX and these AI company, he had 2:57:42.680 --> 2:57:48.320 to include a bunch of revenue information. This came out 2:57:48.360 --> 2:57:50.960 in what's called their ten Q filing, and tech Dirt 2:57:51.240 --> 2:57:53.320 has has done an analysis of it that I'm going 2:57:53.360 --> 2:57:56.640 to quote from. Now, all of X's revenue is now 2:57:56.640 --> 2:58:00.120 misleadingly labeled AI revenue, But even then the reporting has 2:58:00.160 --> 2:58:02.480 to admit AD revenue took a big hit, dropping one 2:58:02.560 --> 2:58:04.800 hundred and sixty million compared to the first half of 2:58:04.840 --> 2:58:07.800 twenty twenty five, which is already way way lower than 2:58:07.800 --> 2:58:10.280 when Elon took over the site, going from eight hundred 2:58:10.280 --> 2:58:12.640 and seventy million in twenty twenty five to seven hundred 2:58:12.640 --> 2:58:14.879 and ten million in the first half of twenty twenty six. 2:58:15.200 --> 2:58:17.440 The company tries to claim this decrease in AD revenues 2:58:17.440 --> 2:58:20.400 because they transitioned to a new advertising platform which impacted 2:58:20.440 --> 2:58:23.000 AD sales for a short period of time, which is 2:58:23.040 --> 2:58:25.879 a curious explanation given that on the analyst call, CFO 2:58:25.920 --> 2:58:29.480 Brett Johnson credited that very same overhauled ad tech platform 2:58:29.520 --> 2:58:32.400 for the very slight quarter over quarter uptick in AD revenue. 2:58:32.480 --> 2:58:35.360 The same overhaul apparently both tanked the business and rescued it, 2:58:35.400 --> 2:58:40.520 depending on which direction the number was moving. And yeah, 2:58:40.560 --> 2:58:43.280 so within the second quarter of last year to this 2:58:43.400 --> 2:58:44.959 year to where we are at now, AD revenue has 2:58:45.000 --> 2:58:47.080 dropped from four hundred and twenty six million to three 2:58:47.120 --> 2:58:50.800 hundred and sixty seven million year over year, and in 2:58:50.840 --> 2:58:53.360 no way, shape or form is Twitter anywhere close to 2:58:53.400 --> 2:58:55.440 the numbers that Elon Musk claimed they would be in 2:58:55.640 --> 2:58:58.720 right now. In the second quarter of twenty twenty two, 2:58:58.800 --> 2:59:01.560 which is the last full quarter before Elon bought the company, 2:59:01.800 --> 2:59:03.920 Twitter brought in about one point eight billion dollars in 2:59:03.959 --> 2:59:07.160 AD revenue. By the second quarter of twenty twenty six 2:59:07.320 --> 2:59:10.240 X brought in three hundred and sixty seven million dollars. 2:59:10.320 --> 2:59:10.760 Is that bad? 2:59:10.840 --> 2:59:13.840 That is a reduction of seven hundred and thirteen million 2:59:13.879 --> 2:59:17.520 dollars a quarter. In other words, from tech Dirt, Elon 2:59:17.600 --> 2:59:19.800 has wiped out two thirds of Twitter's ad business over 2:59:19.840 --> 2:59:22.000 the exact period in which you promised investors seed nearly 2:59:22.080 --> 2:59:22.480 triple it. 2:59:25.160 --> 2:59:26.800 It's just incredible. It's just fun. 2:59:27.160 --> 2:59:28.080 That's just a good time. 2:59:28.480 --> 2:59:31.200 I wonder how much like the recent drop off can 2:59:31.280 --> 2:59:35.879 also be attributed to, like right wing political content getting 2:59:35.959 --> 2:59:38.840 much less engagement following Trump taking office than what it 2:59:39.000 --> 2:59:41.560 was near twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four when I was, 2:59:41.560 --> 2:59:43.760 you know, driving a lot of traffic to the site. 2:59:44.000 --> 2:59:45.160 That's got to be part of it. 2:59:45.440 --> 2:59:49.120 Part of it has to be also that aislop has 2:59:49.360 --> 2:59:52.080 reduced the value, because we're seeing this at Facebook stars 2:59:52.120 --> 2:59:55.119 across the board, like all of them are seeing reductions 2:59:55.120 --> 2:59:58.640 in like in user engagement because people don't like the 2:59:58.680 --> 3:00:03.480 slot very much. Yeah, this isn't one thing, and well, honestly, 3:00:03.480 --> 3:00:05.800 as funny as it is, you can't even just blame 3:00:05.840 --> 3:00:07.959 it on Elon, although you can blame it on things 3:00:07.959 --> 3:00:10.840 Elon has championed pretty much entirely, right. 3:00:10.680 --> 3:00:15.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, just a fun little story. 3:00:15.959 --> 3:00:16.320 Sweet. 3:00:17.120 --> 3:00:20.440 I have one short piece that I brought today which 3:00:20.480 --> 3:00:24.240 is in a story of good stuff, of people doing 3:00:24.360 --> 3:00:27.280 cool stuff against bad stuff. There is a tree sit 3:00:27.360 --> 3:00:30.680 that is currently blocking construction of the border wall in Arizona. 3:00:31.240 --> 3:00:34.879 Hell yeah, yeah, no, it's it's I'm really excited about it. 3:00:35.800 --> 3:00:39.320 To quote a write up from crimethink dot com about it. Quote, 3:00:39.720 --> 3:00:42.440 two weeks ago, one protester decided it was time to 3:00:42.440 --> 3:00:44.640 block the machine that was about to destroy the last 3:00:44.640 --> 3:00:47.600 of our four ancient cottonwood trees that stood in the 3:00:47.600 --> 3:00:51.400 way of the walls construction. A sheriff arrested him. He 3:00:51.480 --> 3:00:54.360 was released twelve hours later with no charges filed. This 3:00:54.520 --> 3:00:58.160 arrest galvanized the community. Less than two days later, friends 3:00:58.200 --> 3:01:01.880 installed a platform in the tree end quote, and it 3:01:02.120 --> 3:01:05.320 seems to be ongoing as of this recording. And if 3:01:05.360 --> 3:01:07.640 you want more information about the group who is stopping 3:01:07.720 --> 3:01:09.920 construction of the border wall, you can read the whole 3:01:09.920 --> 3:01:12.960 piece on crimething dot com, which is entitled the border 3:01:13.040 --> 3:01:14.000 is an open wound. 3:01:14.560 --> 3:01:17.520 Speaking of open wounds, or I guess I'm gonna call 3:01:17.520 --> 3:01:21.640 you our crime correspondent positive. Margaret has another story about 3:01:21.640 --> 3:01:24.080 things that are open wounds in the face of our society. 3:01:25.000 --> 3:01:25.959 I did pitch that. 3:01:25.920 --> 3:01:27.800 If y'all ever need someone to come on and talk 3:01:27.800 --> 3:01:31.400 about crimes that I approve of, I am always happy 3:01:31.400 --> 3:01:34.360 to talk about crimes that I approve of. And this 3:01:34.520 --> 3:01:38.640 week I can bring you really positive news, really happy 3:01:38.720 --> 3:01:41.640 news that you can file under direct action gets the 3:01:41.680 --> 3:01:45.119 goods because today, as we record this August twelfth, twenty 3:01:45.160 --> 3:01:47.760 twenty six, two days before you're listening to it, the 3:01:47.840 --> 3:01:52.440 police in the town of Winona, Minnesota, have given up 3:01:53.000 --> 3:01:56.160 not entirely. They announced that they will not be replacing 3:01:56.240 --> 3:01:59.320 the eight Flock license plate reader cameras that were stolen 3:01:59.480 --> 3:02:02.960 last week because on or about August third, well on 3:02:03.000 --> 3:02:06.720 August third, the police department in Winoda, Minnesota, reported a 3:02:06.879 --> 3:02:11.600 terrifying loss in just one night, every single one of 3:02:11.640 --> 3:02:15.120 their eight flot cameras, their automated license plate readers that 3:02:15.160 --> 3:02:17.240 tracked every single person who came in and out of 3:02:17.280 --> 3:02:19.280 the city that were set up in pairs along all 3:02:19.280 --> 3:02:22.240 the ways in and out, All eight of them were 3:02:22.280 --> 3:02:25.960 cut down and stolen. I said, on just one night. 3:02:25.959 --> 3:02:28.480 Book the cops don't actually know when it happened. It 3:02:28.480 --> 3:02:31.360 happened sometime between July twenty ninth and August first, and 3:02:31.400 --> 3:02:34.680 they only noticed when eventually the cop was like, look 3:02:34.760 --> 3:02:37.200 of our cameras aren't talking to us anymore. So they 3:02:37.240 --> 3:02:40.600 only noticed a while later. Each camera and its poll 3:02:40.800 --> 3:02:43.920 cost about three thousand dollars, so there's a total of 3:02:43.920 --> 3:02:47.400 twenty four thousand dollars in theft. The crime wasn't noticed 3:02:47.440 --> 3:02:51.000 for days. The WPD also said that some flot cameras 3:02:51.040 --> 3:02:53.840 in Buffalo County, which is a Wisconsin county just up 3:02:54.000 --> 3:02:56.720 from or across the river from there, were also cut down, 3:02:56.760 --> 3:03:00.000 probably on July twenty ninth. And when the police reported 3:03:00.360 --> 3:03:04.439 this theft to social media, over nine hundred people commented 3:03:04.520 --> 3:03:07.760 on the police's post, which takes more nerve. I don't 3:03:07.959 --> 3:03:14.080 comment things on politicians or police departments posts personally, not 3:03:14.200 --> 3:03:14.720 very often. 3:03:15.560 --> 3:03:17.320 And when I do, a delete it and call my lawyer. 3:03:17.959 --> 3:03:21.080 And so nine hundred people commented on the post, almost 3:03:21.200 --> 3:03:22.600 universally in support of the action. 3:03:22.720 --> 3:03:24.519 As reported by the Winona Post. 3:03:24.560 --> 3:03:26.840 One comment or put it, it's almost like people don't 3:03:26.840 --> 3:03:29.000 want to be washed twenty four to seven. And so 3:03:29.080 --> 3:03:33.520 today Winona Police Department declared surrender They put out a 3:03:33.520 --> 3:03:36.920 press release saying how important the cameras have been for 3:03:37.000 --> 3:03:40.600 solving crime, but even more important to them than solving 3:03:40.680 --> 3:03:44.760 crime is building community trust, which they clearly have lost, 3:03:45.120 --> 3:03:48.600 and so they will not be replacing the cameras. Flock 3:03:48.680 --> 3:03:52.400 Safety is a brand name of automated license plate readers ALPRs. 3:03:52.480 --> 3:03:56.000 At this rate, flock is probably kind of becoming the generic. Yeah, like, 3:03:56.040 --> 3:03:59.680 I will run across headlines that say flock like cameras 3:03:59.720 --> 3:04:02.880 that will be talking about something from Axos or other 3:04:02.920 --> 3:04:06.280 places Axon crap, I don't remember else, Axon, thank you. 3:04:07.040 --> 3:04:08.320 It'll probably become the generic. 3:04:08.920 --> 3:04:10.960 I'm working on a longer piece about the revolt against 3:04:10.959 --> 3:04:14.120 these cameras, but it is getting hot this summer. Red state, 3:04:14.280 --> 3:04:17.560 Blue state people just fucking hate the idea that they're 3:04:17.600 --> 3:04:20.800 being tracked everywhere they go. Cop after cop has been 3:04:20.959 --> 3:04:25.080 caught using them to stalk their exes, and it seems 3:04:25.200 --> 3:04:27.800 very likely that if we stay a democracy, the style 3:04:27.840 --> 3:04:29.560 of surveillance will be found to be a violation of 3:04:29.560 --> 3:04:33.360 the Fourth Amendment. Because similar technologies keep getting found to 3:04:33.400 --> 3:04:36.320 be violations of the Fourth Amendment. You know, eventually they're like, oh, 3:04:36.360 --> 3:04:38.160 you actually do need a warrant to look at someone's 3:04:38.160 --> 3:04:40.720 cell phone data, that kind of thing, you know. Yeah, 3:04:40.760 --> 3:04:43.680 but here is a highlight reel among dozens or hundreds 3:04:43.720 --> 3:04:47.359 of other acts of vandalism against these cameras. In June, 3:04:47.400 --> 3:04:50.879 a forty year old man named Marcus B in Monterey, California, 3:04:51.040 --> 3:04:52.800 is alleged most of these people have not been convicted 3:04:52.840 --> 3:04:56.440 yet or will never be convicted, is alleged to have 3:04:56.480 --> 3:04:59.680 destroyed three cameras with his truck. He's on camera doing this. 3:05:00.160 --> 3:05:03.560 They alleged he simply ran down a bunch of these cameras. 3:05:03.560 --> 3:05:05.160 He has bowl bars on the front of his truck, 3:05:05.240 --> 3:05:06.640 so he just goes like, I got big, I'll pick 3:05:06.720 --> 3:05:09.080 up drug and bullbars, and he just knocked them over. 3:05:09.480 --> 3:05:12.560 Possibly another one he attached maybe a toast strap or 3:05:12.600 --> 3:05:14.640 a chain and yanked it up out of the ground 3:05:14.640 --> 3:05:18.280 with his truck. Also in June, a twenty one year 3:05:18.320 --> 3:05:20.600 old in Alexandria, I'm just going to present the opposite 3:05:20.680 --> 3:05:23.920 kind of person doing this. Probably in June, a twenty 3:05:23.920 --> 3:05:26.560 one year old in Alexandria, Virginia on the opposite coast, 3:05:26.680 --> 3:05:30.640 is accused of climbing atop a Subaru forester to smash 3:05:30.680 --> 3:05:33.400 a flock camera with a baseball bat on a day 3:05:33.879 --> 3:05:36.440 where at least five other cameras were destroyed in the area. 3:05:36.959 --> 3:05:41.119 The suspect was caught by flock cameras. Houston has seen 3:05:41.160 --> 3:05:44.360 a rash of vandalism. One night, four poles were cut 3:05:44.400 --> 3:05:46.640 down and left lying in the grass with their cameras 3:05:46.640 --> 3:05:50.560 still attached, but all during July, cameras have been spray 3:05:50.560 --> 3:05:54.279 painted and smashed and cut down in Houston. Last year, Eugene, 3:05:54.280 --> 3:05:57.199 Oregon wound up canceling its flock contract after only about 3:05:57.240 --> 3:05:59.520 six months of the cameras being up due to an 3:05:59.520 --> 3:06:04.000 apsolo massive public outcry that include lawsuits, statements before city council, 3:06:04.320 --> 3:06:07.560 and at least six cameras being destroyed. At the scene 3:06:07.560 --> 3:06:10.320 of one of the crimes, the vandals left a note 3:06:10.360 --> 3:06:14.400 that read ha ha ha get wrecked, Yes surveilling fucks. 3:06:15.800 --> 3:06:16.720 I love these people. 3:06:17.240 --> 3:06:21.080 Maybe the most public case is that in Suffolk, Virginia, Suffolk, 3:06:21.160 --> 3:06:24.199 oh where a forty one year old US Air Force 3:06:24.240 --> 3:06:27.280 engineer named Jeffrey S. Sovereign is facing felony charges for 3:06:27.320 --> 3:06:30.480 the destruction of thirteen flock cameras between April and October 3:06:30.480 --> 3:06:33.160 and twenty twenty five it is alleged that he used 3:06:33.280 --> 3:06:36.480 vice scripts to take apart the two piece polls and 3:06:36.520 --> 3:06:40.320 then took home the solar panels in the battery, possibly. 3:06:39.879 --> 3:06:40.760 To use for camping. 3:06:41.959 --> 3:06:44.039 That's what he said later when the cops raided his 3:06:44.080 --> 3:06:47.000 house and found solar panels there. His truck was tracked 3:06:47.000 --> 3:06:49.200 by other cameras near the scene of one of the crimes. 3:06:49.240 --> 3:06:51.840 The police put a GPS tracker on his vehicle, which 3:06:51.879 --> 3:06:54.440 is another thing that the Fourth Amendment. Eventually you actually 3:06:54.440 --> 3:06:56.200 have to get a warrant to put GPS trackers on 3:06:56.560 --> 3:06:58.840 people's cars. Now, his house was raided by the police, 3:06:58.840 --> 3:07:02.080 they found solar panels, and he is very open about 3:07:02.120 --> 3:07:04.280 being opposed to flock cameras and refers to them as 3:07:04.280 --> 3:07:06.360 a violation of the Fourth Amendment. But he has pleaded 3:07:06.400 --> 3:07:10.680 not guilty to the actual destruction. More recently, an independent 3:07:10.720 --> 3:07:13.520 candidate for the Tennessee House of Representatives, a thirty seven 3:07:13.600 --> 3:07:17.080 year old man named Adam lee Heimerman, is facing felony 3:07:17.160 --> 3:07:21.879 charges for allegedly shooting down four alpr's automated license plate 3:07:21.920 --> 3:07:27.080 readers in two counties between July fourteenth and July twenty second. 3:07:27.320 --> 3:07:29.120 One of the cameras he is alleged to have shot 3:07:29.160 --> 3:07:33.720 down was like during church services. He allegedly went out 3:07:33.720 --> 3:07:36.400 into the parking lot and there was one within shooting distance, 3:07:36.440 --> 3:07:40.480 so he just shot it from the church. A go 3:07:40.720 --> 3:07:43.279 fenby was set up and bailed him out of jail. 3:07:43.920 --> 3:07:46.600 Police in Long Island report that all summer cameras have 3:07:46.640 --> 3:07:49.119 been run over, spray painted, or simply had their wires 3:07:49.160 --> 3:07:51.600 unplugged or turned around to no longer face the street. 3:07:52.520 --> 3:07:54.520 Oh and there's also a guy in Florida who's just 3:07:55.040 --> 3:07:57.320 holding up signs that block them. He's retired. He's like 3:07:57.320 --> 3:07:59.720 a seventy seven year old retired Republican guy. So he 3:07:59.800 --> 3:08:01.879 just that's up lawn chairs and sits there with its 3:08:01.879 --> 3:08:04.880 signs on ten foot like painters polls, and just blocks 3:08:04.879 --> 3:08:09.400 the cameras fools. And when police or news report on 3:08:09.440 --> 3:08:12.800 these incidents, the posts are flooded with supportive comments, including 3:08:12.840 --> 3:08:15.520 those that indicate that people should look into jury and nullification. 3:08:16.400 --> 3:08:19.720 But of course, as cities canceled their Flock contracts, many 3:08:19.800 --> 3:08:23.520 of them are simply signing with other ALPR companies, like Denver, 3:08:23.640 --> 3:08:26.280 which ended its contract with Flock in February, but by 3:08:26.320 --> 3:08:30.199 March had signed up with another company, Axon for fifty cameras. 3:08:30.680 --> 3:08:33.320 So it's working, but people got to keep up that 3:08:33.400 --> 3:08:37.000 pressure legally or whatever, do whatever you want. 3:08:37.240 --> 3:08:40.240 It seems like these cameras have kind of mobilized this 3:08:40.320 --> 3:08:43.680 coalition of like the kind of leftist people who generally 3:08:43.720 --> 3:08:48.000 hate these things, different kinds of like civil libertarian from 3:08:48.040 --> 3:08:50.240 both kind of I guess, like the contemporaries of a 3:08:50.280 --> 3:08:51.920 libertarians tend to be on the left, and then the 3:08:51.959 --> 3:08:54.039 kind of old school Republican like why is the stay 3:08:54.080 --> 3:08:57.119 watching people? And then it also seems important that these 3:08:57.160 --> 3:08:59.440 are supposed to be licensed plate readers, which means they've 3:08:59.440 --> 3:09:03.680 pissed off just people who drive cars. Yeah, it's like 3:09:04.160 --> 3:09:08.119 you've declared war on motorists. Yeah, which is a demographic 3:09:08.360 --> 3:09:09.000 people that. 3:09:09.680 --> 3:09:13.240 I was reading this eighty eight percent of Americans drive 3:09:13.280 --> 3:09:15.000 a car on any given week. 3:09:15.280 --> 3:09:16.040 Yeah. 3:09:16.400 --> 3:09:19.879 Yeah, this and data centers are the most red blue 3:09:20.520 --> 3:09:23.320 a movement that just has everyone being like, no, wait, 3:09:23.400 --> 3:09:23.959 I don't like that. 3:09:24.640 --> 3:09:27.600 Yeah, it seems like the general text surveillance complex. It's 3:09:27.640 --> 3:09:30.960 just extremely unpopular right now and people are doing stuff 3:09:30.959 --> 3:09:32.920 about it. Yeah, which is good because it's been going 3:09:32.959 --> 3:09:33.680 on for a while. 3:09:33.760 --> 3:09:37.160 And yeah, I'm really excited that people are doing something 3:09:37.200 --> 3:09:40.840 about it. And yeah, I'm really really proud of Winona 3:09:40.920 --> 3:09:44.400 for canceling that contract. Like I know of people who've 3:09:44.400 --> 3:09:47.480 been convicted and done time for this, and you know, 3:09:47.560 --> 3:09:50.920 it's it's it's wider than what's being reported on. 3:09:52.040 --> 3:09:54.920 I think definitely the massive movement we're seeing around or 3:09:54.959 --> 3:09:58.920 against Flock right now is one of the biggest positive 3:09:59.040 --> 3:10:01.680 downstream impact of stop coop City, which was one of 3:10:01.720 --> 3:10:05.720 like the first movements really put Flock into focus because 3:10:05.800 --> 3:10:09.520 Flock cameras were being first tested out on the site. 3:10:09.520 --> 3:10:12.160 Flock is an Atlanta based company. The first kind of 3:10:12.240 --> 3:10:16.000 articles you started to see talking about Flock, where we're 3:10:16.000 --> 3:10:19.320 often in relation to to reporting around stop cop City 3:10:19.400 --> 3:10:23.200 or you know, activists discussing Flock is it's like a 3:10:23.200 --> 3:10:27.080 new emerging threat like years years ago, way before the 3:10:27.120 --> 3:10:30.680 public kind of realized that there's now these cameras cropping 3:10:30.760 --> 3:10:32.200 up in like every every city. 3:10:32.600 --> 3:10:34.879 I think you're right, and I also think that the 3:10:34.879 --> 3:10:40.080 stop cop City method of being both direct and also 3:10:40.720 --> 3:10:43.600 showing up a city council. Sure, you know, I think 3:10:43.640 --> 3:10:47.240 nothing is more effective than when those two groups support 3:10:47.280 --> 3:10:50.840 each other. Yeah, and you know the fact that when 3:10:50.879 --> 3:10:53.680 the cops says, don't worry, we are We're going to 3:10:53.720 --> 3:10:55.920 catch whoever did this, and everyone's like, nah, they were 3:10:55.959 --> 3:10:58.960 fishing with me last weekend, you know. But yeah, I 3:10:58.959 --> 3:11:01.200 think I think you're right about stop cup seity building 3:11:01.280 --> 3:11:04.039 a lot of the framework with which to understand this 3:11:04.120 --> 3:11:04.600 kind of thing. 3:11:05.720 --> 3:11:09.040 Let's go on an ad break and then hear from 3:11:09.160 --> 3:11:10.080 James again. 3:11:22.280 --> 3:11:23.080 And we're back. 3:11:23.640 --> 3:11:25.119 So this week, I want to talk about a couple 3:11:25.120 --> 3:11:27.960 of immigration stories not getting as much coverage. I thought 3:11:28.000 --> 3:11:30.320 I would start by talking about some training materials for 3:11:30.360 --> 3:11:34.680 immigration judges that Matthew Hopook obtained by Freedom of Information 3:11:34.879 --> 3:11:37.520 Act request. They're in a drop box which I will 3:11:37.560 --> 3:11:40.680 link in the show notes. It appears from these documents 3:11:40.720 --> 3:11:44.280 that the quote unquote judges, they are not judges in 3:11:44.320 --> 3:11:47.720 the sense that other judges are judges. Right, Immigration judges 3:11:47.720 --> 3:11:54.880 are effectively civil servants. They receive twelve week days of training. 3:11:55.240 --> 3:11:59.960 What yeah, Jesus Christ. Yeah, before this, many of the 3:12:00.160 --> 3:12:02.560 will have never seen an immigration case, right, And like, 3:12:02.600 --> 3:12:05.680 as someone who has covered immigration for oh my god, 3:12:05.879 --> 3:12:09.960 a decade, like this is the topic of byzantine complexity. Right, 3:12:10.000 --> 3:12:13.080 Immigration law is very complicated. I'm not going to do 3:12:13.120 --> 3:12:15.160 the thing where you like compare the training to barbers 3:12:15.320 --> 3:12:17.720 or something, because I don't think that's particularly useful here. 3:12:18.000 --> 3:12:19.920 I think all of us can understand that twelve days 3:12:19.920 --> 3:12:22.880 of training is not very much training to be making 3:12:22.920 --> 3:12:25.840 decisions which are life or death for people. Right. These 3:12:25.840 --> 3:12:29.480 can directly result in people as we saw recently with 3:12:29.520 --> 3:12:32.439 the couple who were found tied. 3:12:32.280 --> 3:12:33.879 Up and shot after being deported. 3:12:34.240 --> 3:12:36.520 Yeah, and there will be many more cases of that 3:12:36.520 --> 3:12:38.920 that we are not able to directly report just because 3:12:39.720 --> 3:12:42.920 no one has published them, or in places where people 3:12:42.959 --> 3:12:45.960 fear to publish them, than they won't have got out. Right, 3:12:46.240 --> 3:12:49.120 But we should be under no illution that deportation and 3:12:49.160 --> 3:12:53.600 asylum cases are life or death. Seven very complicated policy 3:12:53.680 --> 3:12:57.080 memoranda are packed into the last hour of the second day, 3:12:57.600 --> 3:12:59.720 so the foyer has the schedule the day by day 3:12:59.720 --> 3:13:03.320 skeate right. The entirety of asylum with holding of removal 3:13:03.320 --> 3:13:06.119 and the Convention against Torture are covered in a single day, 3:13:06.640 --> 3:13:08.800 and it's not the whole day. There's other stuff in 3:13:08.800 --> 3:13:12.959 that day. The materials also show that they provide templates 3:13:13.000 --> 3:13:17.000 to judges for making decisions, and they contain some errors 3:13:17.040 --> 3:13:20.720 and contradictions regarding the law as it stands today. The 3:13:20.760 --> 3:13:23.400 important context of this is that more than two hundred 3:13:23.480 --> 3:13:26.920 immigration judges have been fired since twenty twenty five, and 3:13:27.000 --> 3:13:30.600 two hundred and fifty have been hired. So there is 3:13:30.640 --> 3:13:34.680 a whole scale change in the immigration justice landscape, and 3:13:34.720 --> 3:13:38.199 it is being repopulated with people who have very little training. 3:13:38.840 --> 3:13:40.880 They do get a slide I was looking through the 3:13:40.920 --> 3:13:43.800 slide presentation, so they do get a slide on judicial independence, 3:13:44.440 --> 3:13:46.800 but the nature of their employment is different to a 3:13:46.840 --> 3:13:48.959 regular judge as I said earlier, and in their first 3:13:49.000 --> 3:13:51.440 two years are basically on like a probationary period, and 3:13:51.480 --> 3:13:53.920 they have very little right to appeal if they're fired. 3:13:54.720 --> 3:13:57.680 This is another example of things that the Trump administration 3:13:57.840 --> 3:14:03.200 is doing that will take years to remedy, even if 3:14:03.200 --> 3:14:05.560 the next government is amenable to trying to do so. 3:14:05.800 --> 3:14:08.240 Right Like, these are the people who are making decisions 3:14:08.280 --> 3:14:12.560 for thousands of people that are life or death. The 3:14:12.600 --> 3:14:14.880 second thing I want to talk about is a DOJ 3:14:15.080 --> 3:14:19.720 lawsuit against New York, Connecticut, and Vermond. The DOJ says 3:14:19.840 --> 3:14:22.840 it is quote challenging state laws that provide instate tuition 3:14:22.920 --> 3:14:26.240 to illegal aliens. The DOJ claims that quote, these laws 3:14:26.280 --> 3:14:29.520 unconstitutionally discriminate against US citizens who are not afforded the 3:14:29.560 --> 3:14:33.480 same reduced tuition or scholarships, create incentives for illegal immigration, 3:14:33.640 --> 3:14:36.520 and reward illegal aliens with benefits that US citizens are 3:14:36.520 --> 3:14:41.000 not eligible for, all in direct conflict with federal law. Now, 3:14:41.200 --> 3:14:43.360 they have been going after this for a while, right, 3:14:43.400 --> 3:14:45.920 The DOJ has been doing these suits since last year. 3:14:46.280 --> 3:14:49.120 In some Republican states Texas is when I think of 3:14:49.160 --> 3:14:51.760 I think Kansas maybe as well, definitely Texas. In some 3:14:51.840 --> 3:14:54.680 Republican states, state officials joined the DOJ in asking their 3:14:54.680 --> 3:14:57.600 policies to be vacated, so they obviously had success with those. 3:14:57.680 --> 3:14:57.880 Right. 3:14:58.400 --> 3:15:02.240 In Illinois, not a publican state, the dj won a 3:15:02.320 --> 3:15:06.320 case and had the in state's benefits declared unconstitutional based 3:15:06.360 --> 3:15:10.280 on a federal statute that reads, quote, notwithstanding any other 3:15:10.280 --> 3:15:12.879 provision of law, an alien who is not lawfully present 3:15:12.879 --> 3:15:15.120 in the United States shall not be eligible on the 3:15:15.160 --> 3:15:19.000 basis of residents within a state or political subdivision, for 3:15:19.120 --> 3:15:23.600 any post secondary education benefit, unless a citizen or national 3:15:23.640 --> 3:15:25.960 of the United States is eligible for such a benefit 3:15:26.440 --> 3:15:29.480 in no less amount, duration, and scope, without regard to 3:15:29.520 --> 3:15:33.160 whether the citizen or national is such a resident. So 3:15:34.240 --> 3:15:37.680 I would attempt to simplify that and explain it to people. 3:15:37.680 --> 3:15:41.160 But as we are about to find out, the very 3:15:41.320 --> 3:15:43.720 nuances of that text matter. 3:15:43.959 --> 3:15:46.720 I mean, this sort of was often complicated, but I 3:15:46.879 --> 3:15:49.920 was having trouble following what that means exactly. 3:15:50.400 --> 3:15:51.800 Yeah, that's a fuck. 3:15:52.000 --> 3:15:54.959 Like if somebody wrote that sentence in a writing class 3:15:54.959 --> 3:15:58.200 I would teaching. I wouldn't be happy about it. It's 3:15:58.240 --> 3:16:01.760 a sentence that requires us alties circular breathing to read it. 3:16:02.080 --> 3:16:02.560 Yeah. 3:16:02.680 --> 3:16:06.280 So in Minnesota there was a case like this. But 3:16:06.600 --> 3:16:11.959 because Minnesota uses attending a state high school to determine 3:16:12.000 --> 3:16:18.000 tuition fees, this is therefore not a residency test, right, 3:16:18.040 --> 3:16:23.000 so the residency part of that massive sentence matters. They 3:16:23.680 --> 3:16:29.600 also argued that the law says unless a citizen or 3:16:29.720 --> 3:16:32.120 national of the United States eligible for such a benefit, 3:16:32.800 --> 3:16:36.640 it does not say all citizens of the United States 3:16:36.680 --> 3:16:39.200 are eligible for such a benefit, and so Minnesota was 3:16:39.240 --> 3:16:43.280 able to show that a non Minnesota resident who did 3:16:43.320 --> 3:16:47.240 attend a Minnesota high school went to University of Minnesota 3:16:47.440 --> 3:16:51.640 was eligible for interstate tuition. So a US citizen would 3:16:51.680 --> 3:16:56.240 be eligible, all US citizens would not, And so they 3:16:56.280 --> 3:17:00.400 were able to hang their hat on those two things. Right, 3:17:00.480 --> 3:17:05.000 It's not about residency per se. A citizen could receive 3:17:05.040 --> 3:17:09.360 those benefits. I was looking around for residency requirements, and 3:17:09.440 --> 3:17:12.279 it seems that some of these states may be able 3:17:12.360 --> 3:17:14.800 to make a similar case to Minnesota. 3:17:14.959 --> 3:17:15.640 Others will not. 3:17:15.840 --> 3:17:16.000 Right. 3:17:16.080 --> 3:17:19.080 Some of them require residency in the more traditional like 3:17:19.920 --> 3:17:23.680 domiciled in a state. Yeah, perhaps driver's license rate, to vote, 3:17:23.680 --> 3:17:27.080 et cetera, et cetera. Right, and so it will be 3:17:27.400 --> 3:17:30.520 more challenging for some than others. Eventually, I imagine this is 3:17:30.520 --> 3:17:35.080 one of those things where we've already seen different decisions, right, 3:17:35.080 --> 3:17:37.240 and that's because different Stitts have different laws. But I'm 3:17:37.240 --> 3:17:39.199 sure this is one of those things that will eventually 3:17:39.240 --> 3:17:41.480 find its way to the Supreme Court in the next 3:17:41.520 --> 3:17:46.359 couple of years. Regardless, it's an attempt to drive undocumented 3:17:46.400 --> 3:17:48.840 people further into the shadows and create an underclass of 3:17:48.920 --> 3:17:50.360 underpaid labor without rights. 3:17:50.680 --> 3:17:51.240 Yeah. 3:17:51.600 --> 3:17:55.320 People on the right constantly talk about assimilation. Are they 3:17:55.400 --> 3:17:57.400 used to? I think now they just straight up do 3:17:57.520 --> 3:18:01.960 more racis shit. But the active assimilation will be much 3:18:02.000 --> 3:18:05.440 harder if people cannot access education. Right. I am sure 3:18:05.440 --> 3:18:08.879 I have had hundreds of undocumented students come through my classroom. 3:18:08.879 --> 3:18:11.560 I'm not gonna be like, hands up if you're undocumented, right, 3:18:11.600 --> 3:18:13.320 I'm not going there's no need for me to know that. 3:18:14.200 --> 3:18:16.640 But I know that the universities I teach how to 3:18:16.640 --> 3:18:18.000 do a great deal and provide a great deal of 3:18:18.040 --> 3:18:21.920 resources to undocumented people. Our universities are better because of that. 3:18:22.400 --> 3:18:25.840 Having a diverse range of experiences and opinions in the 3:18:25.840 --> 3:18:30.200 classroom makes your classroom better. It will make it easier 3:18:30.240 --> 3:18:32.000 for people on the right to make these arguments that 3:18:32.000 --> 3:18:35.800 they're like stealing working class jobs right, because people will 3:18:36.080 --> 3:18:38.080 not have the qualifications they need to do other jobs. 3:18:38.080 --> 3:18:42.120 They will end up being underpaid and exploited. These policies, 3:18:42.120 --> 3:18:45.640 I should add, were relatively bipartisan when they were passed 3:18:45.640 --> 3:18:48.360 into twenty tens and even for the last quarter of 3:18:48.440 --> 3:18:52.120 the last century. True heads will recognize this from a 3:18:52.160 --> 3:18:53.880 show I did in twenty twenty three. 3:18:54.640 --> 3:18:56.720 Yes, my name is David Grosberg, and I'd like to 3:18:56.720 --> 3:18:59.080 know do you think that children of illegal aliens should 3:18:59.080 --> 3:19:02.000 be allowed to attend to public schools free or do 3:19:02.040 --> 3:19:04.120 you think that their parents should pay for their education? 3:19:05.959 --> 3:19:09.040 Who you're addressing that too? I thank you first looking 3:19:09.080 --> 3:19:09.879 right at you, I. 3:19:09.959 --> 3:19:11.600 Said, he was love. 3:19:12.800 --> 3:19:15.560 I'd like to see something done about the illegal alien 3:19:15.640 --> 3:19:19.040 problem that would be so sensitive and so understanding about 3:19:19.160 --> 3:19:23.039 labor needs and human needs that that problem wouldn't come up. 3:19:23.360 --> 3:19:24.279 But today, if. 3:19:24.160 --> 3:19:28.120 Those people are here, I would reluctantly say I think 3:19:28.160 --> 3:19:28.720 they would. 3:19:28.920 --> 3:19:30.480 They would get whatever it is. 3:19:30.400 --> 3:19:33.280 That they're you know, what the society is giving to 3:19:33.840 --> 3:19:37.279 their neighbors. But it has the problem has to be solved. 3:19:37.280 --> 3:19:41.240 The problem has to be solved because as we have 3:19:41.400 --> 3:19:44.760 kind of made illegal some kinds of labor that I'd 3:19:44.800 --> 3:19:47.720 like to see legal, we're doing two things. We're creating 3:19:47.720 --> 3:19:52.400 a whole society of really honorable, decent, family loving people 3:19:52.560 --> 3:19:54.959 that are in violation of the law. And secondly, we're 3:19:55.000 --> 3:19:58.680 exacerbating relations with Mexico. The chance the answer to your 3:19:58.760 --> 3:20:03.120 question is much more fundamental then whether they attend Houston schools. 3:20:03.120 --> 3:20:04.879 It seems to me, I don't want to see a 3:20:04.879 --> 3:20:06.680 whole if they're living here, I don't want to see 3:20:06.680 --> 3:20:09.360 a whole. I think as six and eight year old 3:20:09.440 --> 3:20:14.760 kids being made, you know, one totally uneducated and made 3:20:14.800 --> 3:20:15.400 to feel. 3:20:15.160 --> 3:20:16.720 That they're living with outside the law. 3:20:16.920 --> 3:20:18.879 Let's address ourselves to the fundamentals. 3:20:18.959 --> 3:20:22.320 These are good people, strong people. Part of my family 3:20:22.400 --> 3:20:23.040 is in Mexican. 3:20:24.080 --> 3:20:24.880 That's wild. 3:20:25.200 --> 3:20:29.320 Yeah, that is a famous woke immigration advocate, George Herbert 3:20:29.320 --> 3:20:30.320 Walker Bush. 3:20:30.480 --> 3:20:33.320 That's really kind of mind blowing. 3:20:33.640 --> 3:20:36.480 It's genuinely remarkable, isn't it to look back? This is 3:20:36.560 --> 3:20:38.880 not that long ago. Yeah, none of us were alive then, 3:20:38.920 --> 3:20:41.480 I guess, But like, you know, these are people who 3:20:41.560 --> 3:20:45.560 people still look to as like contemporary political people who 3:20:45.600 --> 3:20:46.160 they admire. 3:20:46.480 --> 3:20:46.640 Right. 3:20:47.120 --> 3:20:49.080 This is to the left of a lot of Democrats 3:20:49.160 --> 3:20:50.360 right now on immigration. 3:20:50.520 --> 3:20:53.080 Yeah, yeah, a lot of Democrats would be scared to 3:20:53.320 --> 3:20:56.199 talk about, yes, immigration that way. 3:20:56.440 --> 3:20:58.959 Yeah, to say part of my family is Mexican, to 3:20:59.040 --> 3:21:00.920 say that, like I would never want to leave these 3:21:01.000 --> 3:21:03.280 children as an underclass like. 3:21:03.200 --> 3:21:04.920 That, Like, no, it's it's insane. 3:21:04.959 --> 3:21:08.440 Yeah, Like I mean, like this coupled with like the 3:21:09.240 --> 3:21:14.280 public charge rules, the concerted effort to increase this war 3:21:14.360 --> 3:21:18.040 on like the poorest, most marginalized people in our country 3:21:18.640 --> 3:21:21.080 and criminalize them and push them out of public life, 3:21:21.640 --> 3:21:24.840 compared to yeah, George H. W. Bush in the eighties 3:21:25.440 --> 3:21:31.320 is wild. Yeah, Like, it's remarkable that we have come. 3:21:31.360 --> 3:21:32.800 So I'm not saying that things were great in the 3:21:32.879 --> 3:21:34.359 nineteen eighties, to be clear. 3:21:34.240 --> 3:21:37.640 No, that's part of what makes it so wild. 3:21:38.640 --> 3:21:42.280 Right, Like these people did a bunch of really terrible shit, 3:21:43.240 --> 3:21:46.000 but like Reagan and Bush would both be on the 3:21:46.120 --> 3:21:48.680 very progressive flank of the Democrats with some of their 3:21:48.720 --> 3:21:52.120 policies on immigration today. I guess the way I would 3:21:52.160 --> 3:21:53.880 like to finish this segment, if we can come that 3:21:53.959 --> 3:21:55.879 far that fast, then we can come back a long way. 3:21:55.760 --> 3:21:56.520 Pretty quickly too. 3:21:56.600 --> 3:22:01.280 I think, yeah, yeah, it does take courage, especially from politicians, because, 3:22:01.280 --> 3:22:04.000 as Garrison said, like a lot of politicians feel like 3:22:04.040 --> 3:22:07.800 they're going to lose the center when in fact, like 3:22:07.959 --> 3:22:12.200 that position was a centrist position in many voters lifetimes. 3:22:13.080 --> 3:22:16.240 I think it just bears remarketub on how far we've 3:22:16.280 --> 3:22:17.680 come and how quickly we've got there. 3:22:18.320 --> 3:22:21.040 Yeah, jeez, I'm still just kind of in shocked. I mean, 3:22:21.560 --> 3:22:23.760 my whole life. I feel like the way I've heard 3:22:23.840 --> 3:22:26.320 debates are immigration, certainly on the Republican side, but also 3:22:26.400 --> 3:22:29.920 largely on the Democrats side, it's just pitting like workers 3:22:29.959 --> 3:22:33.800 against each other, yeah, and hearing a Bush talk about 3:22:34.520 --> 3:22:37.600 how no, we should like care for these people, they 3:22:37.600 --> 3:22:40.160 should be educated, Like why would we want to have 3:22:40.200 --> 3:22:42.480 these people who are living here be not educated, not 3:22:42.520 --> 3:22:45.720 able to actually live like a meaningful life. Yeah, it's 3:22:45.720 --> 3:22:49.840 a level of like humanity that I just have not 3:22:50.360 --> 3:22:53.640 really experienced in you know, politics, in my kind of 3:22:53.680 --> 3:22:56.760 living memory, and certainly on the Republican side. 3:22:56.680 --> 3:23:00.400 Like yeah, yeah, I mean George Walker Bush spoke Spanish, right, 3:23:00.680 --> 3:23:04.359 it was Walker's bed on named George W. Bush spoke Spanish. 3:23:05.000 --> 3:23:07.560 W's has been on name. I think it's a sea 3:23:07.640 --> 3:23:10.080 change since even then, right, Like, I think we can 3:23:10.160 --> 3:23:15.680 draw a pretty straight line from Obama's massive deportation campaign 3:23:16.320 --> 3:23:19.320 to today. For whatever people think of Obama, he deported 3:23:19.320 --> 3:23:21.640 a shit town of people. Yeah, the reason they called 3:23:21.720 --> 3:23:24.840 him the deporter in chief. But like, yeah, nine to 3:23:24.840 --> 3:23:26.720 eleven and then the grow and terror and in the 3:23:26.879 --> 3:23:30.400 Syrians of war, that certainly changed a discourse in Europe, right, 3:23:30.480 --> 3:23:33.000 And I think, yeah, I mean once we had little 3:23:33.000 --> 3:23:35.920 babies washing up dead on beaches, and politicians realized that 3:23:35.920 --> 3:23:37.760 that wasn't going to trigger people to get in the 3:23:37.800 --> 3:23:40.960 streets and fuck things up. Yeah, they knew that they 3:23:41.000 --> 3:23:44.160 could do an awful lot and not acknowledge, not acknowledge 3:23:44.200 --> 3:23:47.080 that humanity that George H. W. Bush acknowledge is in that. 3:23:47.480 --> 3:23:49.039 The other thing that's really interesting to me about this 3:23:49.200 --> 3:23:52.120 is like this is this is nineteen eighty Reagan is 3:23:52.160 --> 3:23:54.640 on stage here. Yeah, and how much of this this 3:23:54.680 --> 3:23:57.400 is also like a pretty determining fork in the road 3:23:57.520 --> 3:24:01.360 in some ways and like leading to like neoliberalism totally 3:24:01.400 --> 3:24:06.879 taking over. How state capacity gets completely completely reduced. And 3:24:06.920 --> 3:24:09.840 then you see this in like you know, the next 3:24:09.840 --> 3:24:12.640 Bush era and Obama and is getting accelerated with Trump. 3:24:12.879 --> 3:24:16.200 Is that their only solution to the problems caused by 3:24:16.200 --> 3:24:20.200 neoliberalism is not actually fixing neoliberal economics, but it has 3:24:20.200 --> 3:24:21.960 to be turning workers, I guess each other. Yeah, that 3:24:22.320 --> 3:24:24.400 is that is the last thing that they can do 3:24:24.440 --> 3:24:27.320 because they still serve capital. They still want to do 3:24:27.440 --> 3:24:31.520 neoliberal economics, but that system has completely stressed itself and 3:24:31.560 --> 3:24:36.760 has sabotaged the economy, wrecked housing and jobs, and so now, no, 3:24:36.879 --> 3:24:39.040 we should not actually fix those things or have the 3:24:39.080 --> 3:24:40.039 government care for people. 3:24:40.520 --> 3:24:42.240 But it is it's these other people. 3:24:42.000 --> 3:24:44.480 Who are you know, even more poor than you that 3:24:44.760 --> 3:24:46.560 are causing all of these problems. 3:24:46.200 --> 3:24:49.360 Right, like this pivot to scapegoating, yes, as opposed to 3:24:49.400 --> 3:24:50.560 like doing anything useful with it. 3:24:50.600 --> 3:24:52.880 I mean even Reagan, right, Reagan pisce the Irica. 3:24:53.160 --> 3:24:56.800 It was a massive amnesty, like to two point six 3:24:56.840 --> 3:24:59.960 two point seven million people something in that range. Yeah, 3:25:00.440 --> 3:25:05.800 were effectively like legalized by the Reagan administration. And to 3:25:06.000 --> 3:25:07.960 vault from that where we're at, as you say, like 3:25:08.040 --> 3:25:10.960 to vault from like the state trying to make any 3:25:10.959 --> 3:25:16.080 meaningful difference in making working class people's lives better, to 3:25:16.240 --> 3:25:19.440 escape growing one group so the other group doesn't complain 3:25:19.440 --> 3:25:20.520 about their own situation. 3:25:21.360 --> 3:25:22.280 It's very obvious. 3:25:23.200 --> 3:25:26.560 Every day for the past like month, Fox News has 3:25:26.560 --> 3:25:30.800 had a segment about the DSAS like amnesty for all immigrants, 3:25:30.879 --> 3:25:32.040 playing on their platform. 3:25:32.920 --> 3:25:35.959 Right, Yeah, I'm not alone in pointing out that like 3:25:36.000 --> 3:25:39.280 Reagan did a similar thing. I think, like, yeah, I'm 3:25:39.280 --> 3:25:41.720 sure lots of people have tried to dunk on them 3:25:41.760 --> 3:25:45.600 that way. But yeah, I heard like a right wing 3:25:45.760 --> 3:25:50.280 metal song about like three outdoor attention. Someone send it 3:25:50.320 --> 3:25:52.200 to me today. One of the funniest fucking things. But yeah, 3:25:52.240 --> 3:25:55.680 it for some reason it talked about the DSA amnesty, 3:25:55.720 --> 3:25:59.040 which is a hard thing to shoehorn into a metal song, 3:25:59.040 --> 3:26:04.320 but they did it, so I guess, right, well done. Congratulations. Yeah, 3:26:04.760 --> 3:26:08.240 that has become like the boogeyman of right wing politics 3:26:08.320 --> 3:26:10.520 from people. I guess, like, I know I talk about 3:26:10.520 --> 3:26:12.320 this student law. I would love to hear from this dude. 3:26:12.360 --> 3:26:15.119 I would love to talk to this dude. The dude 3:26:15.120 --> 3:26:19.040 who is walking around Minneapolis the day before Alex Pretty 3:26:19.120 --> 3:26:21.600 was killed with a sign that said what would Ronald 3:26:21.640 --> 3:26:24.800 Reagan do? And he was at the anti ice march, 3:26:24.959 --> 3:26:29.280 right like, yeah, huh, seriously, like genuinely, if anybody knows 3:26:29.320 --> 3:26:31.119 who that person is, please put that person in touch 3:26:31.160 --> 3:26:32.879 with me. Oh yeah, Like I think that is a 3:26:32.959 --> 3:26:35.240 type of person who we need to talk to right now. 3:26:35.480 --> 3:26:39.400 Yeah yeah, and like not make that person feel like 3:26:39.560 --> 3:26:42.640 they can't grow in other ways hopefully, you know. By Oh, 3:26:42.640 --> 3:26:44.920 I don't know, maybe there's just an ironic sign. 3:26:44.920 --> 3:26:47.160 And anyway, I'm fascinated to talk to that person. 3:26:48.040 --> 3:26:50.280 It's always real sad to me to look at these 3:26:50.280 --> 3:26:52.480 things and just be like, you know, like it's not 3:26:52.600 --> 3:26:57.080 that long ago that this was very bipartisan issue, and 3:26:57.320 --> 3:27:00.200 like now, once again I guess by part is and 3:27:00.320 --> 3:27:03.000 in that there is a complete agreement that people who 3:27:03.040 --> 3:27:05.280 tried to come here without part of the report of 3:27:05.400 --> 3:27:08.240 entry should die in numbers that are large enough to 3:27:08.280 --> 3:27:10.360 dissuade people from doing it, and if those numbers have 3:27:10.440 --> 3:27:13.200 to increase, and so be it. And that migrants should 3:27:13.200 --> 3:27:16.480 be treated as humans without rights like the Biden administration 3:27:16.600 --> 3:27:21.280 absolutely did that too. Yeah, and yeah it sucks. 3:27:22.320 --> 3:27:24.320 You know, if if if you want to look at 3:27:24.360 --> 3:27:28.000 what the actual policy disagreement is about, it's should you 3:27:28.160 --> 3:27:30.199 use the state to carry out a full on ethnic 3:27:30.240 --> 3:27:34.960 cleansing or should you use the states to simply commit 3:27:35.000 --> 3:27:36.160 heinous acts of violence? 3:27:37.080 --> 3:27:40.440 Yeah? It should the basis of this purge be some 3:27:40.720 --> 3:27:44.720 arbitrary line along the line from like full legal status 3:27:44.760 --> 3:27:48.039 to no legal status? Right, or should the basis of 3:27:48.080 --> 3:27:51.080 it be as it is now? Any one we can 3:27:51.120 --> 3:27:54.280 get out, we get out, like yeah, unlet's you're on 3:27:54.320 --> 3:27:57.280 that DSA like amnesty point when I guess, like, that's 3:27:57.280 --> 3:27:59.240 a different point. But it is not one that like 3:27:59.280 --> 3:28:01.000 the DNC is making us a whole. 3:28:01.280 --> 3:28:02.879 No, that is that is a it is I think 3:28:02.879 --> 3:28:05.760 it's useful to hold those things in distinction. Yes, at 3:28:05.760 --> 3:28:08.480 this point right now, it will that change over time? 3:28:09.080 --> 3:28:09.400 Maybe? 3:28:09.440 --> 3:28:13.080 Will that hosts its own contradictions over time, maybe, but 3:28:13.360 --> 3:28:17.080 we will deal with those when they get there. Yeah, 3:28:17.200 --> 3:28:20.720 but mean, yeah, it seems the opinion of Trump now 3:28:20.840 --> 3:28:23.119 is no, not unless you pay me a million dollars 3:28:23.120 --> 3:28:25.800 for the gold cart or whatever, you are not allowed inside. 3:28:26.640 --> 3:28:30.080 It's mind boggling to think that this is the thing that, yeah, 3:28:30.120 --> 3:28:34.600 within my parents' lifetime was completely uncontroversial, even like I 3:28:34.640 --> 3:28:36.680 remember those you know, I was in the US when 3:28:36.680 --> 3:28:40.120 they passed those the situition things. This is at the 3:28:40.120 --> 3:28:42.960 same time, right where there was relatively bipartisan support for 3:28:43.080 --> 3:28:46.640 dreamers too. Yep, like when it was uncontroversial that those 3:28:46.680 --> 3:28:49.000 people who've grown up for nearly their entire lives here 3:28:49.000 --> 3:28:51.879 should be allowed to remain here. And all of that 3:28:52.040 --> 3:28:55.039 shit has gone now and then, like I guess, like 3:28:55.320 --> 3:28:56.840 the fact that there are some people who are so 3:28:57.040 --> 3:29:00.959 cowardly on both parties that they have they once supported 3:29:00.959 --> 3:29:02.560 it and now don't just because they think that's the 3:29:02.600 --> 3:29:05.760 way the wind is blowing. Yeah, it is something that 3:29:05.840 --> 3:29:09.600 shouldn't go unremarked upon. Lake, I don't know, the least 3:29:09.640 --> 3:29:11.720 qualified people to be in any position of leadership are 3:29:11.720 --> 3:29:15.000 the ones who are cowards like that, and yet we 3:29:15.040 --> 3:29:17.440 have a great deal of them in Congress. If you 3:29:17.440 --> 3:29:19.600 want to hear about some people who shouldn't be in Congress, 3:29:20.240 --> 3:29:23.680 I have a podcast called Natural Causes. We will talk 3:29:23.760 --> 3:29:26.840 eventually about Mike Lee and why he is like this, 3:29:27.120 --> 3:29:30.080 Why does Mike Lee want to sell all the public 3:29:30.160 --> 3:29:33.240 land that we get to share, and who has donated 3:29:33.240 --> 3:29:35.039 to his campaign to make him want to do it, 3:29:35.320 --> 3:29:37.720 But we can hear about other stuff too. This week, 3:29:37.720 --> 3:29:43.520 we're going to cover cyclospora, which is the incontinence parasite 3:29:44.120 --> 3:29:46.560 spreading through the Midwest, and we're going to talk about 3:29:46.560 --> 3:29:50.359 what it tells us about the rights of agricultural labor, neoliberalism, NAFTA, 3:29:51.160 --> 3:29:54.920 and all the massive corporations between you and your crunch rep. 3:29:55.360 --> 3:29:57.600 And after that, we're going to talk about fire. If 3:29:57.600 --> 3:29:58.920 you listen to the show, you'll know that I was 3:29:58.920 --> 3:30:01.920 in Spokane. So I'm going to talk to some people 3:30:01.959 --> 3:30:04.959 who evacuated about what you should do when your phone 3:30:05.000 --> 3:30:08.280 starts going ape shit, and how you can prepare yourself 3:30:08.760 --> 3:30:12.240 for fire evacuations because this stuff isn't changing anytime soon. 3:30:12.640 --> 3:30:15.000 I'm going to talk to some people about how you 3:30:15.080 --> 3:30:17.440 can be a good friend to your friend who is 3:30:17.480 --> 3:30:20.280 being evacuated. And then I'm going to talk to some 3:30:20.280 --> 3:30:23.000 folks who lost their homes in Los Angeles and how 3:30:23.000 --> 3:30:25.600 they've recovered since then and what you can do to 3:30:25.600 --> 3:30:27.920 help them. And then a week after that, we're going 3:30:27.920 --> 3:30:30.960 to talk about what we can all learn from indigenous 3:30:31.040 --> 3:30:34.240 fire knowledge and how we can better take care of 3:30:34.280 --> 3:30:38.760 our lands to not suppress fire, but to have more 3:30:38.879 --> 3:30:39.800 say in when. 3:30:39.600 --> 3:30:42.280 And how fire happens. So if you. 3:30:42.200 --> 3:30:45.360 Would like to hear about those topics, you can look 3:30:45.440 --> 3:30:48.600 up at Natural Causes wherever podcasts are given away for free, 3:30:48.720 --> 3:30:51.520 probably the same place you're listening to this one. Yeah, 3:30:51.600 --> 3:30:55.000 talk about fucking golf as well. Hate golf. 3:30:56.840 --> 3:31:00.240 Somehow, that's both the most at least British moment I've 3:31:00.280 --> 3:31:02.800 ever I've seen it from you. 3:31:05.640 --> 3:31:09.200 Returning to the bleak present, Trump has issued an executive 3:31:09.320 --> 3:31:13.440 order on Monday about vaccines that is at the same 3:31:13.520 --> 3:31:18.279 time both extremely disturbing and somewhat unlikely to do that much. 3:31:19.040 --> 3:31:23.560 There's sort of a few different components to this executive order. 3:31:24.280 --> 3:31:26.200 There's one part of it that is an attempt to 3:31:26.400 --> 3:31:29.560 ram through RFK Junior's attempt to reduce the amount of 3:31:29.600 --> 3:31:33.520 vaccines that children get for absolutely no reason whatsoever. RFK 3:31:33.680 --> 3:31:36.120 jor We've talked about this previously on the show. RFK 3:31:36.240 --> 3:31:39.640 Junior has been attempting to reduce a number of vaccines 3:31:39.640 --> 3:31:44.320 that children get in childhood through CDC advisory boards, which 3:31:44.360 --> 3:31:47.560 is the way that you're theoretically supposed to do this. However, 3:31:47.680 --> 3:31:52.240 this was blocked in court, and as those litigations are ongoing, 3:31:52.400 --> 3:31:55.119 those policies simply have not gone through. So Trump's attempting 3:31:55.160 --> 3:31:59.000 to use an executive order to bypass that process. 3:32:00.360 --> 3:32:00.879 Won't work. 3:32:01.640 --> 3:32:07.600 There is another separate part about separating the MMR vaccine 3:32:07.640 --> 3:32:10.440 into three different vaccines. So the MMR vaccine is a 3:32:10.480 --> 3:32:14.280 combined vaccine from measles, mumps, and rebella, and part of 3:32:14.320 --> 3:32:17.720 his executive order is an attempt to get those spread out. 3:32:18.440 --> 3:32:20.720 And then there's also a part that's about threatening states 3:32:20.760 --> 3:32:23.680 who don't allow religious exemptions for vaccinations in order to 3:32:23.680 --> 3:32:26.880 send their kids to school. And then a lot of 3:32:26.920 --> 3:32:31.120 the total executive order is this kind of in some 3:32:31.200 --> 3:32:36.440 ways grandstanding, where Trump is talking about how this is 3:32:36.640 --> 3:32:40.040 what the government says the science is, and Trump is 3:32:40.080 --> 3:32:42.200 saying the government says that the science is that the 3:32:42.320 --> 3:32:46.760 MMR vaccine is bad and that you need three separate vaccines, 3:32:47.280 --> 3:32:49.480 and that that's good, and that that's what like the 3:32:49.520 --> 3:32:52.280 gold standard of evidence based in medicine is now. It's 3:32:52.280 --> 3:32:55.280 almost more like a post than an executive order. It's 3:32:55.320 --> 3:32:59.680 just him saying this is the government's position on the science. Now, 3:33:00.120 --> 3:33:04.080 this is all very classic anti vax stuff. In particular, 3:33:04.160 --> 3:33:08.640 the separating out the MMR vaccine is just the classic 3:33:08.680 --> 3:33:11.000 anti vaccine stuff. Getting back to a man named Andrew 3:33:11.040 --> 3:33:13.360 Wakefield to a stripped of his medical license after it 3:33:13.480 --> 3:33:17.080 discovered that he had been hired to produce evidence linking 3:33:17.160 --> 3:33:19.520 vaccines to autism by a group that was trying to 3:33:19.600 --> 3:33:22.400 sue the British government for damages over their belief that 3:33:22.520 --> 3:33:26.080 vaccines were quote unquote causing their children's autism. So Wakefield 3:33:26.160 --> 3:33:27.880 was hired by this group to produce study that would 3:33:27.879 --> 3:33:32.120 support their claims. And then also Wakefield's turned out had 3:33:32.160 --> 3:33:34.280 lied to the parents of young children about the painful 3:33:34.320 --> 3:33:38.840 and invasive medical experiments he performed on them. So that's 3:33:38.840 --> 3:33:40.640 how he'd lost his medical license. There's a very good 3:33:40.640 --> 3:33:43.879 Age Bomber Guide long essay video essay on this that 3:33:43.920 --> 3:33:48.240 I recommend watching, and Wakefield very specifically pedaled a line 3:33:48.280 --> 3:33:51.960 about the MMR vaccine. His argument was that the MMR 3:33:52.040 --> 3:33:54.959 vaccine could be dangerous if they were taken together, but 3:33:55.000 --> 3:33:57.920 if taken individually, they were safe. This doesn't make sense 3:33:57.959 --> 3:34:01.520 even by the mechanism of the fake condition he made up, 3:34:01.760 --> 3:34:04.160 but it made him seem like less of a full 3:34:04.200 --> 3:34:06.920 on anti vaxxer. And then he also did this because 3:34:06.959 --> 3:34:08.879 he was trying to get a patent to make a 3:34:08.879 --> 3:34:11.000 separate vaccine to sell them to the kids of parents 3:34:11.000 --> 3:34:13.480 who believe the MMR was dangerous. So that this entire 3:34:13.520 --> 3:34:17.240 thing is a product of Wakefield's attempt to do a 3:34:17.320 --> 3:34:20.600 grift in the nineteen nineties and the British media latching 3:34:20.600 --> 3:34:22.960 onto it and spreading it, and this has just sort 3:34:22.959 --> 3:34:26.359 of persisted as this zombie belief where in the speech 3:34:26.840 --> 3:34:30.200 where Trump is giving talking about him signing this executive order, 3:34:30.240 --> 3:34:34.000 he's talking about how the MMR together is lethal, but 3:34:34.200 --> 3:34:37.560 individually they're safe, which is the stuff that Wakefield was 3:34:37.560 --> 3:34:41.160 saying in the nineties. It was never true then, it 3:34:41.200 --> 3:34:44.760 was never true now. But that's why we all died 3:34:44.800 --> 3:34:47.840 as children. I guess that's why I have autism. I 3:34:47.879 --> 3:34:54.200 don't know, like I didn't diet rebella or whatever that's 3:34:54.240 --> 3:34:58.360 caused by transness. That's not the other way around. Yeah, 3:34:58.400 --> 3:35:02.240 So basically we have executive order that is the sort 3:35:02.280 --> 3:35:06.680 of persistence of this zombie grift that has transcended this 3:35:06.720 --> 3:35:09.720 guy's original grift and is now in an executive order 3:35:09.720 --> 3:35:12.800 for the President of the United States. But it's sort 3:35:12.840 --> 3:35:16.000 of unlikely that any of the stuff in here is 3:35:16.040 --> 3:35:18.959 going to actually have actual effects on children getting vaccines, 3:35:19.000 --> 3:35:24.120 which is mostly good. Obviously, the attacks on states that 3:35:24.120 --> 3:35:26.440 don't have relateous exemptions for vaccinating kids to go to 3:35:26.520 --> 3:35:30.760 school is bad. But it's really unclear how the legal 3:35:30.800 --> 3:35:34.680 mechanism for any of this would work. And another complication 3:35:34.800 --> 3:35:38.880 is that we don't have separate vaccines for the components 3:35:38.920 --> 3:35:42.280 of MMRSH. The US does not make them nominally. This 3:35:42.360 --> 3:35:44.240 executive order is supposed to set up the option for 3:35:44.440 --> 3:35:46.800 parents to do that, and Trump said he would be 3:35:46.840 --> 3:35:50.680 like working with the private sector to allow this to happen. 3:35:50.720 --> 3:35:54.400 But this doesn't currently exist, So we need another operation 3:35:54.560 --> 3:35:58.240 light speed. Yeah, it's operation warp speed. But like for 3:35:58.320 --> 3:36:04.279 anti vas yeah, light drive. Yeah. And obviously every single 3:36:04.320 --> 3:36:07.680 reputable medical institution recommends that you do them all at 3:36:07.680 --> 3:36:09.959 the same time because it's safe. And also there's actually 3:36:09.959 --> 3:36:12.840 does mean giving children less vaccinations so they're more likely 3:36:12.840 --> 3:36:13.920 to show up and do them. 3:36:13.959 --> 3:36:17.560 But they have seventy two vaccines mia seventy two. 3:36:17.840 --> 3:36:20.160 Yeah, so let's make it seventy four, all at once, 3:36:20.360 --> 3:36:23.800 all at the same time. More vaccines. I want more vaccines. 3:36:23.840 --> 3:36:27.080 I want to catch less diseases. You should vaccinate children 3:36:27.120 --> 3:36:28.880 even more like that rules. 3:36:28.920 --> 3:36:29.120 I know. 3:36:29.200 --> 3:36:30.600 I want to get vaccine for everything. 3:36:30.840 --> 3:36:32.320 It's like in dand we're like, oh, do you want 3:36:32.320 --> 3:36:34.560 protection from fire, and you're like, yeah, I want protection 3:36:34.640 --> 3:36:35.200 from fire. 3:36:35.440 --> 3:36:40.200 Rocks, give me a lined vaccine. I want it. Wait, 3:36:40.240 --> 3:36:40.879 what is that. 3:36:42.720 --> 3:36:54.040 Locked rocking jazz, rocking jazz? Bot sorry, locked rocking jazz, 3:36:54.840 --> 3:36:56.480 rocking jazz, Bob. 3:36:58.160 --> 3:37:01.600 By God? Is that Meal Wong some music? Yes it is. 3:37:01.760 --> 3:37:05.680 It is tariff talk. We have a brief tariff talk. 3:37:06.360 --> 3:37:11.439 So tariff refunds are continuing after the Supreme Court overruled 3:37:11.480 --> 3:37:15.320 the so called Liberation Day tariffs. But the question remains, 3:37:15.720 --> 3:37:18.760 who are these refunds actually going to. I'm guessing it's 3:37:18.760 --> 3:37:23.320 all of the consumers, right. No, No, it's corporations. And 3:37:24.680 --> 3:37:27.240 I'm gonna say right off the bat that Amazon is 3:37:27.240 --> 3:37:31.440 saying it's claiming that some specific consumers will get on funds. No, 3:37:31.800 --> 3:37:33.959 if you know they're not like if you if you 3:37:34.080 --> 3:37:36.440 believe that I have the nft of a bridge to 3:37:36.520 --> 3:37:40.879 sell you like just no, no, they're not. 3:37:41.360 --> 3:37:43.560 You don't think Amazon's going to pass off all like 3:37:43.680 --> 3:37:46.520 six hundred million dollars to consumers and like an equitable 3:37:46.560 --> 3:37:47.320 and terif fashion. 3:37:48.840 --> 3:37:51.040 Come on, I just I just I can't. I can't 3:37:51.080 --> 3:37:53.920 take this seriously. This is this is one of those 3:37:53.920 --> 3:37:56.879 things where you read mainstream journalists talking about this and 3:37:56.879 --> 3:38:00.440 it's like, Okay, yes, they have to at face value 3:38:00.680 --> 3:38:06.680 quote the Amazon CFO, yeah, and print the just obvious 3:38:06.800 --> 3:38:09.080 lie that they are telling. But I don't have to 3:38:09.080 --> 3:38:12.800 do that. No, absolutely not, They're just lying to you. Now. 3:38:13.440 --> 3:38:16.280 In reality, it has been you know, it has been 3:38:16.320 --> 3:38:19.040 large corporations who have reaped the over one hundred billion 3:38:19.080 --> 3:38:23.800 dollars rewards from the tariff refunds, not consumers, and prices meanwhile, 3:38:23.959 --> 3:38:28.880 have stayed high. Who could possibly have guessed that. Now, 3:38:29.000 --> 3:38:32.720 this obviously allows corporations to double dip by both receiving 3:38:32.760 --> 3:38:35.880 their teriff rebate checks from the government will also maintaining 3:38:35.920 --> 3:38:40.039 the increased prices nominally caused by the tariffs. This is 3:38:40.080 --> 3:38:44.959 because corporations are so called price setters. They do not 3:38:45.240 --> 3:38:49.080 as neoclassical economics suggest take prices from some kind of 3:38:49.120 --> 3:38:51.480 abstract market or like, you know, the point which occurs 3:38:51.600 --> 3:38:54.120 me that is not how prices are set. Prices in 3:38:54.200 --> 3:38:57.400 reality are set by guys in corporate offices whose job 3:38:57.440 --> 3:38:59.760 it is to set the price, and now increasingly it 3:38:59.840 --> 3:39:03.080 is sometimes set by you know, AI programs which are 3:39:03.080 --> 3:39:05.879 doing effectively the same thing but trying to rip you 3:39:05.920 --> 3:39:10.160 off even more. Now, what this means is that while 3:39:10.200 --> 3:39:13.320 you do have to take into account consumer sentiment to 3:39:13.400 --> 3:39:16.080 some to some extent, right in terms of like, you know, 3:39:16.120 --> 3:39:21.720 maintaining brand loyalty, once you have an excuse to raise prices, right, 3:39:21.760 --> 3:39:24.880 once consumers have been disciplined into accepting higher prices as 3:39:24.920 --> 3:39:28.600 the quote unquote result of tariffs, companies can simply leave 3:39:28.680 --> 3:39:31.800 prices high without fear of backlash and reap in more profit. 3:39:32.320 --> 3:39:34.760 This is also a decent amount of the inflation during 3:39:34.760 --> 3:39:39.199 the Biden administration, where there were increased supply chain costs 3:39:39.240 --> 3:39:41.640 which increased prices, but then those costs never came down 3:39:41.680 --> 3:39:44.640 again as supply chain costs decreased a little bit. Because 3:39:44.640 --> 3:39:47.280 corporations could simply leave the price sticky and keep like 3:39:47.360 --> 3:39:51.240 screwing you over. So the net result of the terrif 3:39:51.280 --> 3:39:54.720 Frey funds has been companies leaving prices at the points 3:39:54.760 --> 3:39:59.160 they were at already and consumers seeing absolutely none of it. 3:39:59.240 --> 3:39:59.280 It. 3:39:59.360 --> 3:40:01.760 It's even kind of well, even Amazon is saying that, like, 3:40:01.840 --> 3:40:04.920 they're not setting up a system for consumers to like 3:40:05.080 --> 3:40:10.760 file for acclaim. Amazon will assess by themselves if individual 3:40:10.760 --> 3:40:14.440 consumers deserve a refund and then contact them individually. 3:40:14.560 --> 3:40:16.560 Oh, I trust them to do that. That makes sense. 3:40:16.640 --> 3:40:22.200 It's incredible, it's incredible. There's a Canadian version of the 3:40:22.240 --> 3:40:24.920 song Dulloyd Polozzi, which is down with the Police with 3:40:24.959 --> 3:40:28.520 classical Yiddish song. A Canadian guy whose name I'm blanking 3:40:28.560 --> 3:40:30.680 on right now wrote a version. If it were One 3:40:30.680 --> 3:40:33.640 of the lines is it's about it's about the police, 3:40:33.760 --> 3:40:35.160 like killing a guy in custody. 3:40:35.440 --> 3:40:39.680 Hey, hey, deloy Polyze means the same thing now as yesterday. 3:40:40.520 --> 3:40:43.600 Out of your house is in Yeah. But one of 3:40:43.640 --> 3:40:46.080 the lines that is always stuck with me is specifically 3:40:46.120 --> 3:40:49.120 the line at first the situation makes the law men 3:40:49.320 --> 3:40:52.200 look so filthy, but they investigate themselves and it turns 3:40:52.240 --> 3:40:54.440 out they're not guilty, and then that's what's happening here. 3:40:54.480 --> 3:40:56.840 They investigate themselves and it turns out they're not guilty. 3:40:57.959 --> 3:41:01.800 Who could possibly have expected this? All power to the corporations. 3:41:02.840 --> 3:41:09.760 Let's let's also that's right. That's right, electrification plus corporate power. 3:41:11.600 --> 3:41:14.000 Let's let's go on one more ad break and then 3:41:14.040 --> 3:41:30.640 discuss everyone's favorite thing, elections. All right, we are back 3:41:31.879 --> 3:41:37.440 in Minnesota. Amy Klobashar will likely succeed Mike Walls as 3:41:37.600 --> 3:41:41.920 governor of Minnesota, winning the Democratic primary with ninety percent. 3:41:41.640 --> 3:41:42.359 Of the vote. 3:41:43.120 --> 3:41:48.560 Meanwhile, the Trump endorsed candidate for governor, Mike Lindell, also 3:41:48.640 --> 3:41:52.640 known as the my pillow guy, has lost the primary 3:41:52.720 --> 3:41:57.879 to Lisa Damouse, the Minnesota House speaker. So Mike ended 3:41:57.959 --> 3:42:00.920 up losing with thirty two percent of the vote to 3:42:01.240 --> 3:42:05.480 Lisa Demutz forty three percent. This is a legitimate blow 3:42:05.560 --> 3:42:08.959 to like the power of Trump's endorsement, and you know, obviously, 3:42:09.400 --> 3:42:14.040 Mike Lindell's very public figure, while Lisa, you know, is 3:42:14.080 --> 3:42:18.279 an actual state politician that voters are somewhat more familiar 3:42:18.320 --> 3:42:21.320 with as a real politician and not that guy in 3:42:21.360 --> 3:42:25.280 that TV ad who thinks the election is fake. So 3:42:25.360 --> 3:42:28.480 this is an interesting referendum in the Republican Party itself 3:42:28.520 --> 3:42:31.720 on Trump's endorsement power and figures. 3:42:31.360 --> 3:42:35.840 Like Mike so kind of basically picking old style Republicans 3:42:35.879 --> 3:42:37.200 to new style Republicans. 3:42:37.760 --> 3:42:40.560 Yes, like she is like the Minnesota like house speaker, 3:42:40.600 --> 3:42:42.760 like of the Citate house like people that they know 3:42:42.840 --> 3:42:46.120 who are local where we not as diehard mega at 3:42:46.200 --> 3:42:50.760 least compared to Mike Lindell not saying that Lisa Dedmouth 3:42:50.879 --> 3:42:54.640 is a good politician, nor Amy Klar right like right, 3:42:54.720 --> 3:42:56.920 both of the people in this race I think suck. 3:42:57.600 --> 3:43:00.480 But it in looking at like what the the future 3:43:00.520 --> 3:43:03.160 of the Republican Party might be the fact that Trump's 3:43:03.200 --> 3:43:07.520 endorsement here did not result in Mike winning is something 3:43:07.520 --> 3:43:11.160 that I find to be a bit interesting. Meanwhile, the 3:43:11.280 --> 3:43:15.119 Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren endorsed Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota 3:43:15.320 --> 3:43:16.760 Peggy Flanagan. 3:43:16.400 --> 3:43:19.320 Who probably a Margaret you think so Peg is usually 3:43:19.360 --> 3:43:19.920 a Margaret. 3:43:20.280 --> 3:43:23.080 Well, there you go. She won the primary to replace 3:43:23.240 --> 3:43:27.920 Democratic Senator Tina Smith, who is stepping down. Flanagan got 3:43:28.040 --> 3:43:30.879 fifty nine percent of the vote compared to the APAC 3:43:31.000 --> 3:43:36.520 backed Moderate House Representative Angie Craig, who earned thirty nine 3:43:36.680 --> 3:43:39.920 point four percent. So basically like a twenty point difference. 3:43:40.800 --> 3:43:43.520 Ice was one of the main factors in this race, 3:43:43.560 --> 3:43:45.760 as a lot of the races are in Minnesota are 3:43:45.840 --> 3:43:49.959 being defined in large part by ice. Following metro surge. 3:43:50.640 --> 3:43:53.600 Flanagan attacked Craig for voting in support of the Lake 3:43:53.640 --> 3:43:58.680 and Riley Act and voting for a resolution thanking Ice. Meanwhile, 3:43:58.760 --> 3:44:03.199 Craig attacked Flat again for the post pandemic daycare fraud 3:44:03.280 --> 3:44:08.400 scandals in Minnesota regarding their state run social services. Peggy 3:44:08.400 --> 3:44:11.480 Flanagan has also been very outspoken in support of trans 3:44:11.520 --> 3:44:12.720 rights and trans youth. 3:44:13.400 --> 3:44:16.240 Yeah, she's She's been firmly outspoken in her support of 3:44:16.959 --> 3:44:20.240 trans kids getting gender affirming healthcare and also wearing the 3:44:20.400 --> 3:44:24.080 like protect trans Kids like knife shirt. I like when 3:44:24.280 --> 3:44:28.440 Margarets don't go in the Thatcher direction. So yeah, that's right. 3:44:28.480 --> 3:44:33.080 Had his set is cut so House Representative Angie Craig, 3:44:33.120 --> 3:44:34.960 who was running for Senate, is now out of a 3:44:35.040 --> 3:44:40.039 job after losing to Peggy and in the race for 3:44:40.720 --> 3:44:44.920 her House seat, the former mayor of Lakeville, Matt Little, 3:44:45.000 --> 3:44:47.680 who's a progressive running on Medicare for all and regulating 3:44:47.720 --> 3:44:52.320 AI data centers, just won the Democratic primary, beating the 3:44:52.360 --> 3:44:56.000 pro Israel candidate State Senator Matt Klein. This is forty 3:44:56.080 --> 3:45:00.280 seven percent to thirty percent. Matt Little also participately in 3:45:00.320 --> 3:45:04.720 the community rapid response to Operation Metro Surge. Elanomar also 3:45:04.760 --> 3:45:07.959 won the primary for her reelection campaign by over eighty percent. 3:45:08.720 --> 3:45:11.120 But for the big election news this week, let's turn 3:45:11.160 --> 3:45:15.240 to Wisconsin, where DSA candidate Francesca Hong, who was heavily 3:45:15.280 --> 3:45:18.680 favored to win in the polls, barely lost in an 3:45:18.760 --> 3:45:22.720 upset to establish him back to candidate David Crowley, the 3:45:22.760 --> 3:45:26.920 Milwaukee County executive, who was endorsed by this sitting governor 3:45:27.040 --> 3:45:31.400 late in the race. And this race was so close. 3:45:31.600 --> 3:45:33.880 This is less than four thousand votes, Like I think 3:45:33.920 --> 3:45:36.840 it's at three thousand, seven hundred some votes right now. 3:45:36.920 --> 3:45:41.800 That's the difference. It's point five percentage point difference. This 3:45:41.959 --> 3:45:44.760 was an incredibly close race. As much as the polls 3:45:44.760 --> 3:45:47.720 were wrong about this race in some ways, polls did 3:45:47.760 --> 3:45:53.560 have support for Hong about right around forty percent. Some 3:45:53.600 --> 3:45:56.440 polls maybe had her overperforming by like two to six percent. 3:45:57.120 --> 3:45:59.880 But the main thing that polling did not account for 3:46:00.600 --> 3:46:03.800 was the electorate getting in behind Crowley late into the 3:46:03.879 --> 3:46:07.840 race to edge out Hong polling had Crowley at about 3:46:07.879 --> 3:46:11.120 twenty two percent, and he ended up winning with just 3:46:11.240 --> 3:46:15.200 over forty percent. Now, this polling was also from at 3:46:15.280 --> 3:46:19.120 least a week or more before the election, and as 3:46:19.200 --> 3:46:22.200 we'll discuss in a bit, things can change pretty late 3:46:22.240 --> 3:46:22.520 in the. 3:46:22.480 --> 3:46:23.920 Game in some of these elections. 3:46:24.320 --> 3:46:27.320 Now, the turnout was also much higher than expected, over 3:46:27.600 --> 3:46:31.480 eight hundred thousand votes, nearing like presidential primary levels. So 3:46:31.600 --> 3:46:35.600 like Hong got a lot of votes, just she needed 3:46:35.640 --> 3:46:38.600 four thousand more to win the election. I think the 3:46:38.640 --> 3:46:41.400 way mainstream media is gonna be talking about this race 3:46:41.440 --> 3:46:46.720 will be somewhat frustrating. The Politico headline right now is 3:46:46.800 --> 3:46:51.840 quote the far left hits a wall, which is interesting 3:46:51.879 --> 3:46:55.840 framing because last week their headline following Abdul al Sa'id's 3:46:55.879 --> 3:46:59.840 victory was quote, Progressives didn't get the big election night 3:47:00.040 --> 3:47:04.080 they wanted, meaning Abdul did not win by as big 3:47:04.080 --> 3:47:06.840 of a margin as what progressives were expecting. And so 3:47:07.000 --> 3:47:09.720 this is actually bad for progressives. So whether or not 3:47:09.760 --> 3:47:11.640 you win, or whether or not you lose, it's actually 3:47:11.680 --> 3:47:14.320 bad for progressives. Right that is, that is the line 3:47:14.360 --> 3:47:17.680 that media is gonna take regarding this race. And again, 3:47:17.720 --> 3:47:21.160 this race was very close. Hong lost by less than 3:47:21.160 --> 3:47:25.240 four thousand votes and did pretty well in some rural counties. 3:47:25.680 --> 3:47:28.720 These results come down to campaign strategies. Is not a 3:47:28.879 --> 3:47:34.080 massive referendum on like DSA politics, and like this race 3:47:34.160 --> 3:47:36.960 was a stacked roster. There were seven people on the ballot. 3:47:37.480 --> 3:47:40.280 Over one hundred and fifty thousand votes were for other 3:47:40.440 --> 3:47:45.640 candidates besides Hong and Crowley, many of whom suspended their campaigns. 3:47:45.680 --> 3:47:48.360 And there's no rank choice voting in this state. And 3:47:48.680 --> 3:47:53.480 oddly enough, Crowley himself suspended his campaign in early July 3:47:54.320 --> 3:47:57.360 before two other moderate candidates dropped out of the race 3:47:57.440 --> 3:48:01.120 for various reasons, and so then crowd got back into 3:48:01.160 --> 3:48:06.320 the race with consolidated support from the party establishment. Though 3:48:06.640 --> 3:48:10.880 Crowley might not like that term establishment. 3:48:10.520 --> 3:48:14.080 Here's amternal federal who the establishment is? 3:48:14.200 --> 3:48:14.360 Right? 3:48:14.440 --> 3:48:17.039 I think that when we talk about the establishment, I 3:48:17.080 --> 3:48:18.760 don't know who that is. I'm a kid that grew 3:48:18.840 --> 3:48:21.640 up in five three two little six ZIPC. My parents 3:48:21.680 --> 3:48:24.000 was drug addicts and suffered from mental health. I would 3:48:24.000 --> 3:48:27.000 work extremely hard to be where I am today, and 3:48:27.040 --> 3:48:29.680 so when people try to call me the establishment, I 3:48:29.720 --> 3:48:32.560 look at that as a slur, particularly as an African American. 3:48:32.240 --> 3:48:36.520 Candidate Hong was also wildly outspent, like many of these 3:48:36.600 --> 3:48:40.240 DSA or left populist races. She did end up spending 3:48:40.320 --> 3:48:44.520 two hundred and thirty five thousand dollars on digital and 3:48:44.640 --> 3:48:50.279 streaming ads, but she spent zero dollars on traditional TV ads, 3:48:51.080 --> 3:48:54.120 and an outside group also spent about two hundred and 3:48:54.200 --> 3:48:57.080 twenty thousand dollars in ads for Hong, but these ads 3:48:57.120 --> 3:48:59.760 were also digital. There was there was no TV ads 3:49:00.080 --> 3:49:04.080 for Hong in this race. Meanwhile, to quote Politico quote, 3:49:04.480 --> 3:49:08.800 two outside groups backing late re entryant David Crowley spent 3:49:08.840 --> 3:49:13.600 a combined three point three million, mostly on TV, while 3:49:13.600 --> 3:49:19.200 the Milwaukee County executive's own campaign spent nearly nine hundred thousand, unquote. 3:49:19.800 --> 3:49:22.400 So one of the takeaways from this race is that 3:49:23.240 --> 3:49:26.360 maybe you should spend money on some TV ads at 3:49:26.440 --> 3:49:30.920 least now. Hong's campaign was not, you know, flush in cash, 3:49:31.280 --> 3:49:33.840 but TV ads might be needed to edge out a 3:49:33.920 --> 3:49:37.920 bit more support in rural areas where throughout election I 3:49:38.040 --> 3:49:41.080 Crowley kept building a lead little by little, and like 3:49:41.120 --> 3:49:45.720 I was watching Karnaki's stream last night and that was 3:49:45.760 --> 3:49:47.800 the main way Crowley. 3:49:47.520 --> 3:49:48.440 Edged out a lead. 3:49:48.600 --> 3:49:51.400 Is that basically every ten minutes he would win like, 3:49:51.600 --> 3:49:53.560 you know, twenty votes in some rural county and then 3:49:53.600 --> 3:49:55.520 you know, fifty votes in another, and this slowly built 3:49:55.600 --> 3:49:58.360 up to you know, hundreds and then thousands of votes 3:49:58.800 --> 3:50:02.360 in these little small counties. Now, Hong also did win 3:50:02.480 --> 3:50:05.360 some rural counties, specifically in the northern part of the state, 3:50:05.400 --> 3:50:07.280 and also a few rural counties in like the center 3:50:07.800 --> 3:50:10.960 of the state as well. And the fact that Hong 3:50:11.320 --> 3:50:15.640 did so well with no tv ads shows how good 3:50:15.680 --> 3:50:18.600 the DSA ground game was. This was a four thousand 3:50:18.800 --> 3:50:22.720 vote difference with no tv ads, and she did very well. 3:50:22.880 --> 3:50:25.960 She just didn't do well enough. So maybe as good 3:50:25.960 --> 3:50:27.720 as the ground game is, it might not be good 3:50:27.800 --> 3:50:30.720 enough alone. Now, the other sort of thing I'm seeing 3:50:30.720 --> 3:50:34.160 people talk about is that maybe a stronger base turnout 3:50:34.400 --> 3:50:37.040 could across this four thousand vote gap, right, and it's 3:50:37.040 --> 3:50:39.880 specifically Madison and in Green Bay, where she was expected 3:50:39.880 --> 3:50:41.200 to do a little bit better than what she did. 3:50:41.560 --> 3:50:44.000 And what if something like you know, Bernie Sanders sort 3:50:44.040 --> 3:50:47.760 of AOC endorsement rally have helped mobilize in extra few 3:50:47.800 --> 3:50:50.480 thousand votes in these areas where her kind of base 3:50:50.600 --> 3:50:54.280 is concentrated no AOC and Bernie have said that for 3:50:54.320 --> 3:50:57.000 the cycle, they're mostly focusing on congressional races, which. 3:50:56.840 --> 3:50:59.400 Is why they did not get involved in this governor's race. 3:51:00.040 --> 3:51:02.760 But it is definitely worth pointing out that Hong did 3:51:02.800 --> 3:51:06.480 not do as well with college educated voters as other 3:51:06.600 --> 3:51:10.480 DSA candidates have in recent past, or someone like el said. 3:51:10.760 --> 3:51:13.120 She still won college voters, but not by like sort 3:51:13.120 --> 3:51:17.160 of massive margins that you're seeing in other races. And 3:51:17.480 --> 3:51:20.240 as I mentioned before, a lot of this race shifted 3:51:20.320 --> 3:51:24.680 pretty pretty late when the final weeks of the primary 3:51:24.680 --> 3:51:29.480 were spent arguing about quote unquote electability, and this was 3:51:29.520 --> 3:51:32.680 a joint effort from both the media, from news media 3:51:32.920 --> 3:51:37.240 and the Democratic establishment to question whether Hong is electable, 3:51:37.600 --> 3:51:40.560 if she'll be able to beat the Republican in the general, 3:51:41.160 --> 3:51:46.040 or will her like extreme views and old tweets alienate voters. 3:51:46.360 --> 3:51:47.840 Here is the sitting. 3:51:47.520 --> 3:51:51.600 Governor Wisconsin, Governor Tony Evers today wading into the governor's 3:51:51.680 --> 3:51:56.440 race as he was asked about Democratic front runner Francesca Hong, specifically, 3:51:56.600 --> 3:52:01.600 can she beat Republican Tom Tiffany. 3:52:00.160 --> 3:52:00.680 A tough point. 3:52:00.760 --> 3:52:06.640 She has spent her entire campaign dealing with not with 3:52:06.720 --> 3:52:11.200 the issues, but what's on the Twitter. And I just 3:52:11.240 --> 3:52:14.480 find that that's not a good way to beat Tom Tiffany. 3:52:15.000 --> 3:52:17.800 In TV news and online, there's a lot of questions 3:52:17.840 --> 3:52:21.920 about her previous stances on abolishing police and outlets like 3:52:22.040 --> 3:52:25.320 Fox News and also on social media. They circulated an 3:52:25.320 --> 3:52:28.400 old clip from twenty twenty one, when she started serving 3:52:28.440 --> 3:52:31.480 in the State Assembly, talking about being concerned about her 3:52:31.520 --> 3:52:36.880 son's quote unquote proximity to whiteness. Here's a former Biden 3:52:37.000 --> 3:52:39.040 admin official, the chief of staff to the White House 3:52:39.040 --> 3:52:43.320 Press Office and press advisor, discussing Hong on the morning 3:52:43.400 --> 3:52:44.040 of the election. 3:52:44.560 --> 3:52:45.080 She has no. 3:52:45.120 --> 3:52:48.280 Talent, she has no charisma. Her ideas if a toddler 3:52:48.320 --> 3:52:51.040 said them out loud, would get put in time out. 3:52:51.320 --> 3:52:55.480 She's not a real person. She's actually, in my opinion, 3:52:55.640 --> 3:52:58.520 deeply unsettled, and she should really work through in therapy 3:52:58.600 --> 3:53:00.720 some of her own beliefs. And I cannot believe that 3:53:00.760 --> 3:53:02.960 we might be on the cusp of having to lift 3:53:03.040 --> 3:53:05.760 up this person who's undeserving of a seat in Congress. 3:53:06.280 --> 3:53:07.160 That's pretty wild. 3:53:07.560 --> 3:53:11.000 Also pretty wild because quote unquote undeserving for a seat 3:53:11.000 --> 3:53:14.080 in Congress. Hong was not running for Congress. She was 3:53:14.160 --> 3:53:19.560 running for the governor of Wisconsin. But anyway, you know, 3:53:19.720 --> 3:53:22.800 much of the news coverage of the campaign during during 3:53:22.840 --> 3:53:25.240 the final week and a week and a half of 3:53:25.280 --> 3:53:28.680 the race, was spent talking about this stuff, and specifically 3:53:28.720 --> 3:53:33.440 talking about old tweets about quote unquote canceling Thanksgiving and 3:53:33.480 --> 3:53:35.720 how Hong, who used to work in the restaurant industry, 3:53:36.000 --> 3:53:39.920 just doesn't really like holidays. And I think the way 3:53:39.960 --> 3:53:42.440 that this really dominated the race and she was, you know, 3:53:42.440 --> 3:53:43.960 bombarding with a lot of questions by this kind of 3:53:43.960 --> 3:53:48.440 demonstrated how important message discipline is in running these races. 3:53:48.480 --> 3:53:51.080 And you do not need to answer stupid questions flatly, 3:53:51.720 --> 3:53:55.520 but you can rather use that as as a way 3:53:55.560 --> 3:53:58.680 to promote or spread your campaign message saying like, no, 3:53:59.240 --> 3:54:01.720 my biggest concern and as governor, is whether families will 3:54:01.720 --> 3:54:03.560 be able to afford to put food on the table 3:54:03.600 --> 3:54:05.880 and eat together no matter what holidays that they celebrate. 3:54:06.080 --> 3:54:08.440 That would be message discipline, right That is that is 3:54:08.440 --> 3:54:10.800 something that Zoron did very well when campaigning. 3:54:11.520 --> 3:54:13.520 And the other thing I've kind of seen. 3:54:13.320 --> 3:54:16.000 These past few weeks is a lot of these DSA 3:54:16.040 --> 3:54:20.480 candidates get asked about DSA's new platform Workers Deserve More, 3:54:20.520 --> 3:54:23.000 which we've discussed from the show, which is neither like 3:54:23.040 --> 3:54:26.360 a minimum nor a maximum platform. It has a lot 3:54:26.360 --> 3:54:29.360 of like immediate term things that are very very possible, 3:54:29.600 --> 3:54:31.800 like in the short term that people you know should 3:54:31.880 --> 3:54:34.440 be collectively rallying around and pushing for. But it also 3:54:34.480 --> 3:54:37.400 has a lot of like long term goals that the 3:54:37.440 --> 3:54:41.200 platform's own prologue admits like won't be possible under our 3:54:41.240 --> 3:54:45.120 current system and would require like a complete overhaul of society. 3:54:45.760 --> 3:54:50.160 But the platform itself doesn't distinguish between its own like 3:54:50.200 --> 3:54:53.360 actual minimum and maximum proposals. All of the actual proposals 3:54:53.400 --> 3:54:55.600 are like in the same section, and I think this 3:54:55.720 --> 3:54:59.400 is in some ways opened up attacks from news media uses, 3:54:59.440 --> 3:55:00.800 especially host news media. 3:55:01.240 --> 3:55:02.800 This is both a good thing or a bad. 3:55:02.640 --> 3:55:05.280 Thing, right, You could interpret the platform being structured the 3:55:05.280 --> 3:55:07.360 way it is as a way to kind of help 3:55:07.480 --> 3:55:09.520 keep DSA or some of these like some of these 3:55:09.560 --> 3:55:13.040 ideas from sliding over to the right, and having all 3:55:13.080 --> 3:55:15.640 these proposals together, it does open the Overton window on 3:55:15.680 --> 3:55:18.520 a lot of like legitimately radical ideas, where you know, 3:55:18.600 --> 3:55:22.440 now the public is debating things like abolishing the Senate 3:55:22.440 --> 3:55:25.040 and the Electoral College, drafting a new constitution, you know, 3:55:25.040 --> 3:55:28.960 public ownership with the largest corporations and essential industries. But 3:55:29.320 --> 3:55:32.160 the way this platform is structured opens candidates up to 3:55:32.200 --> 3:55:35.760 attack from you know, media journalists who do not have 3:55:36.160 --> 3:55:39.360 you know, the best interests of these candidates at heart, 3:55:39.600 --> 3:55:41.760 where they're being grilled about a lot of things that 3:55:41.960 --> 3:55:44.920 they themselves are not running on. So instead of being 3:55:44.920 --> 3:55:48.360 asked about you know, raising the minimum wage, but ending jerrymandering, 3:55:48.440 --> 3:55:53.320 you know, ice, healthcare, childcare, data centers, whatever, they're instead 3:55:53.360 --> 3:55:56.240 being asked about other you know, maximum proposals in the 3:55:56.320 --> 3:55:59.600 DSA platform. And again I'm not saying this is necessarily 3:55:59.600 --> 3:56:03.160 a bad thing. I think a skilled speaker can navigate 3:56:03.200 --> 3:56:07.600 this and defend their own positions without throwing DSA under 3:56:07.600 --> 3:56:09.680 the bus. But this is a sort of trend that 3:56:09.720 --> 3:56:13.000 I am noticing. I think specifically Oliver Larkin and Florida 3:56:13.080 --> 3:56:16.920 has handled this really really well. And Chris rab who 3:56:17.040 --> 3:56:20.360 won the primary in Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, has also handled 3:56:20.440 --> 3:56:23.360 questioning on this really really well. And I think Hong 3:56:23.400 --> 3:56:28.160 herself was getting better at this towards the end. To close, 3:56:28.280 --> 3:56:30.560 I want to play this short clip of Hong on 3:56:30.680 --> 3:56:33.080 Fox News the Morning of the election. 3:56:33.400 --> 3:56:37.120 Our voters who fear that democratic socialism could turn into communism, 3:56:37.160 --> 3:56:38.160 what would you want them to know? 3:56:41.160 --> 3:56:44.440 No, this is a state where we still have a 3:56:44.480 --> 3:56:49.120 two thirty three tip minimum wage and seven five seven 3:56:49.200 --> 3:56:52.240 tive minimum wage. I think it's going to be pretty 3:56:52.240 --> 3:56:56.040 hard to turn that into socialism soon. But what we 3:56:56.120 --> 3:56:58.240 can do with this campaign is make sure that we're 3:56:58.280 --> 3:57:01.120 fighting for the policies that we're class people first, who 3:57:01.160 --> 3:57:04.520 we're fighting for twenty dollars in one range. 3:57:05.960 --> 3:57:09.280 Interesting the way the anchor is there at the end, 3:57:09.360 --> 3:57:11.720 just to have no idea how to react, I think 3:57:11.760 --> 3:57:13.040 that that is really telling. 3:57:13.640 --> 3:57:16.720 I mean, there's just a fundamental generational divide between people 3:57:16.720 --> 3:57:19.600 who are like that person said socialism that should completely 3:57:19.720 --> 3:57:22.120 end their political career, which, if you're over the age 3:57:22.160 --> 3:57:24.720 of about forty, is just like an axiom. Yes, if 3:57:24.760 --> 3:57:27.560 you're an American and you said the word socialism, you're 3:57:27.560 --> 3:57:31.320 not fit, you don't belong here, And if you're under forty, 3:57:31.360 --> 3:57:32.880 you're like, shut the fuck up. 3:57:33.200 --> 3:57:33.640 I don't know. 3:57:33.880 --> 3:57:36.720 Yeah, I can't afford to live at all. Yeah, so 3:57:36.800 --> 3:57:40.280 maybe I'll support politicians or policies that might might make 3:57:40.320 --> 3:57:47.520 my life slightly better. Yeah, anyway, that is Wisconsin. Let's 3:57:48.080 --> 3:57:51.440 close with Robert and a very funny story. 3:57:52.320 --> 3:57:55.640 Okay, so onto my main story for this week, which 3:57:55.680 --> 3:57:58.040 obviously is not really my story, but I thought it 3:57:58.080 --> 3:58:00.160 was the funniest thing I read this week, so you 3:58:00.240 --> 3:58:03.640 guys about it. So, on July eighth, twenty twenty six, 3:58:03.760 --> 3:58:06.000 Donald Trump was in Ankara, Turkey, with a bunch of 3:58:06.040 --> 3:58:07.880 his top aids and cabinet people, as well as his 3:58:07.920 --> 3:58:11.080 normal press Corps retainers. He was there for a NATO summit, 3:58:11.160 --> 3:58:13.720 and overnight on the seventh, I believe he made the 3:58:13.720 --> 3:58:16.920 decision to have US forces restart their strikes against Iran. 3:58:17.200 --> 3:58:19.160 After I think this is like the fourth or the fifth, 3:58:19.200 --> 3:58:22.840 maybe the seventh breakdown in negotiations we've had. I honestly 3:58:22.840 --> 3:58:25.040 have lost track of how many times that has happened. 3:58:25.160 --> 3:58:28.480 But we started doing strikes again overnight right so after 3:58:28.520 --> 3:58:31.760 that decision was made, but before Trump decamped from Turkey. 3:58:31.840 --> 3:58:35.280 Late on the eighth, CBS News reports that US intelligence 3:58:35.320 --> 3:58:38.200 detected a quote credible plot to fire a missile at 3:58:38.280 --> 3:58:42.120 Air Force One. Now, for clarity, the Air Force one 3:58:42.200 --> 3:58:45.120 that the President flew to Ankara is what I'm going 3:58:45.160 --> 3:58:49.120 to call Air Force one. Two, because it's the Katari 3:58:49.200 --> 3:58:52.080 Air Force one that replaced the real air Force one 3:58:52.200 --> 3:58:54.680 that Trump was given as a gift by a four 3:58:54.760 --> 3:58:57.480 hundred million dollar gift by Cutter, Right, and this is 3:58:57.560 --> 3:58:59.840 legally distinct from a bribe. I need to specify that, 3:59:00.200 --> 3:59:01.800 and I need to note we will be talking about 3:59:01.840 --> 3:59:05.680 a lot of Air Forces one in this episode. Well, 3:59:05.720 --> 3:59:08.920 we'll be talking about three specifically, because. 3:59:08.720 --> 3:59:11.800 Like technically, any plane the president is honest supposed to 3:59:11.800 --> 3:59:12.640 be air Force one. 3:59:12.960 --> 3:59:15.440 Yes, that said, it says supposed to. 3:59:15.440 --> 3:59:17.520 They're also supposed to like change the transponder, but they 3:59:17.520 --> 3:59:19.600 don't do that in situations like we're about to talk 3:59:19.640 --> 3:59:22.600 about where there's like a threat. Right, Yeah, So I 3:59:22.600 --> 3:59:24.760 should talk a little bit about the Katari Air Force one, 3:59:24.800 --> 3:59:27.040 which I'm calling air Force one two. Yeah, I said 3:59:27.040 --> 3:59:29.280 it was a four hundred million dollar gift that's legally 3:59:29.360 --> 3:59:31.880 distinct from a bribe, and it was. But because all 3:59:31.880 --> 3:59:33.840 they had done was make a really nice plane, air 3:59:33.880 --> 3:59:36.280 Force one is a lot more than a really nice plane. 3:59:36.400 --> 3:59:39.800 Air Force one is presumably, I everyone who is an 3:59:39.800 --> 3:59:42.720 expert on plane says about the hardest plane to kill 3:59:42.720 --> 3:59:45.520 in the world, right, because it's air Force one. The 3:59:45.600 --> 3:59:50.200 Katari Air Force one is not that naturally that hard, right, 3:59:50.360 --> 3:59:53.400 because it can't be. So they spent months and months 3:59:53.400 --> 3:59:56.600 and months in seven hundred and fifty million dollars retrofitting 3:59:56.640 --> 3:59:59.080 the Katari plane to ensure that it had the proper 3:59:59.120 --> 4:00:01.880 security features to transport and protect the president. 4:00:01.960 --> 4:00:03.160 Now, even though. 4:00:03.040 --> 4:00:04.880 I just said that that seven hundred and fifty million 4:00:04.880 --> 4:00:07.320 dollars still did not bring this plane up as far 4:00:07.360 --> 4:00:09.520 as I'm aware, it didn't even bring it particularly close 4:00:09.560 --> 4:00:11.520 to what the actual Air Force one is capable of. 4:00:11.560 --> 4:00:14.520 It does not have the whole suite of electronic countermeasures 4:00:14.560 --> 4:00:16.680 and stuff that the real Air Force one has. It's 4:00:16.720 --> 4:00:19.640 still not as secure. I also want to read one 4:00:19.680 --> 4:00:22.480 other note from Aviation Source News about the Katari Air 4:00:22.480 --> 4:00:24.760 Force one plans to transfer the jet to the Trump 4:00:24.760 --> 4:00:27.480 Presidential Library Foundation rather than extend used to the next 4:00:27.560 --> 4:00:28.600 president after his term. 4:00:28.640 --> 4:00:29.680 Add to the controversy. 4:00:29.680 --> 4:00:32.240 It's yes, That's one of the most insane parts of 4:00:32.240 --> 4:00:36.240 the Cutter jet is that it's technically not a personal 4:00:36.280 --> 4:00:38.360 gift to Trump because it's a property on the government, 4:00:38.720 --> 4:00:41.280 and yet after he leaves office it will be transferred 4:00:41.280 --> 4:00:42.800 to his library foundation. 4:00:43.120 --> 4:00:43.920 It's keeping that. 4:00:43.960 --> 4:00:47.200 Fucker it's insane, which he's putt nearly a. 4:00:47.120 --> 4:00:50.920 Billion dollars of public money into anyway. So the plane 4:00:50.960 --> 4:00:53.720 that he flew to Ankara, the Secret Services immediately like, well, 4:00:53.720 --> 4:00:56.040 now that there is a credible threat, we cannot have 4:00:56.120 --> 4:00:58.640 him fly out on the Katari Air Force one because 4:00:59.120 --> 4:01:00.160 it doesn't have the counter. 4:01:00.520 --> 4:01:01.120 It would need. 4:01:01.640 --> 4:01:03.720 So at the last moment on the eighth, mister Trump 4:01:03.760 --> 4:01:06.240 announced that, for old time's sake, I think was very 4:01:06.320 --> 4:01:08.840 close to his exact statement, He's going to be flying 4:01:08.880 --> 4:01:11.120 home from a car on the old Air Force one, 4:01:11.160 --> 4:01:15.920 which we'll call air Force one one. Right, So he 4:01:15.960 --> 4:01:17.480 says he's going to fly home on this thing, and 4:01:17.520 --> 4:01:19.760 to all as far as everyone is aware, on the 4:01:19.800 --> 4:01:23.360 eighth he does, right. He goes, takes a whatever kind 4:01:23.400 --> 4:01:25.960 of ride out to air Force one. He's photographed at 4:01:25.960 --> 4:01:28.040 the door of Air Force one. He enters air Force 4:01:28.080 --> 4:01:30.800 one one, and then Air Force one one takes off 4:01:30.840 --> 4:01:33.680 with all of the press people and a bunch of Trump. 4:01:33.520 --> 4:01:37.000 Staffers on it. Now, what we didn't know then but 4:01:37.040 --> 4:01:37.840 we know now is. 4:01:37.800 --> 4:01:40.520 That Trump was not on Air Force one one after 4:01:40.600 --> 4:01:43.640 it took off, even though he got on the plane, 4:01:44.360 --> 4:01:45.840 because the day before we sat. 4:01:45.760 --> 4:01:47.120 Down to record this episode of ED. 4:01:47.440 --> 4:01:50.000 The Washington Post published one of the funnier investigations of 4:01:50.000 --> 4:01:53.400 the second Trump era. Its title is Contradicting public statements 4:01:53.400 --> 4:01:56.920 Trump took secret flight from Turkey and Mediterranean threat. Now 4:01:57.320 --> 4:01:59.640 CBS and The New York Times had previously reported that 4:01:59.680 --> 4:02:02.880 Trump boarded the old Air Force One due to this threat. 4:02:03.240 --> 4:02:05.920 That was a lie. In reality, the Secret Service had 4:02:05.960 --> 4:02:08.960 Trump board the old Air Force One on camera and 4:02:09.000 --> 4:02:10.840 then put all of the normal people who would be 4:02:10.880 --> 4:02:13.240 on it and then scent it on its way without 4:02:13.280 --> 4:02:16.080 Trump as a decoy in case the Iranians wanted to 4:02:16.080 --> 4:02:19.760 turn the shoot it down. Any major administration visit to 4:02:19.800 --> 4:02:21.760 a summit like they held in Ankara is going to 4:02:21.800 --> 4:02:24.360 include not just Air Force One, but a couple of 4:02:24.400 --> 4:02:28.040 other Air Force marked passenger jets, which are all suitable 4:02:28.040 --> 4:02:30.400 for hosting cabinet officials and other high ranking members of 4:02:30.400 --> 4:02:33.400 the government, but are also there for another reason in 4:02:33.440 --> 4:02:35.920 case the President needed to make a discrete escape on 4:02:36.000 --> 4:02:37.040 a different plane. 4:02:37.120 --> 4:02:38.280 This is not the only. 4:02:38.120 --> 4:02:40.480 Time the President has not been on Air Force One 4:02:40.480 --> 4:02:43.360 when people have thought he was right. The White House 4:02:43.400 --> 4:02:45.200 doesn't have a history of lying to people about this. 4:02:45.320 --> 4:02:47.720 It's more than obfuscated kind of in the moment, like 4:02:47.760 --> 4:02:49.720 they did with Busher, they'll just say, we're not telling 4:02:49.800 --> 4:02:52.600 you where the fucking president is because shit's happening right now. 4:02:52.880 --> 4:02:55.120 So the fact that they did an elaborate lie and 4:02:55.200 --> 4:02:57.480 sent Air Force one into the sky full of people 4:02:57.720 --> 4:03:01.160 as like a decoy for an Iranian missile is pretty new. 4:03:01.040 --> 4:03:03.640 And fucked up. But the fact that the Secret Service 4:03:03.680 --> 4:03:04.960 was like, we probably shouldn't. 4:03:04.560 --> 4:03:06.880 Send him out on any of the obvious Air Force 4:03:06.880 --> 4:03:09.520 ones is not really all that like weird of a moment. 4:03:10.200 --> 4:03:12.400 What is weird is how they did it right. 4:03:13.000 --> 4:03:15.600 And I'm gonna quote from the Washington Post and Ankara 4:03:15.640 --> 4:03:17.480 Trump boarded the old Air Force one jumbo jet in 4:03:17.560 --> 4:03:20.640 view of television cameras. He was secretly shuttled minutes later 4:03:20.640 --> 4:03:23.000 to a smaller plane and Air Force C thirty two 4:03:23.080 --> 4:03:26.440 a via an airport catering truck you typically used to 4:03:26.440 --> 4:03:29.160 load meals and other supplies brief flight. According to the 4:03:29.240 --> 4:03:32.600 US official corroborating material reviewed by the Post, that made 4:03:32.640 --> 4:03:34.800 Air Force one a decoy with media and some White 4:03:34.840 --> 4:03:39.720 House staff aboard the official set, and the article goes 4:03:39.720 --> 4:03:42.000 into a hysterical amount of deal. They're combing through all 4:03:42.000 --> 4:03:43.880 of the pictures of the airport on that day, and 4:03:43.920 --> 4:03:46.160 they show the catering truck when Trump would have been 4:03:46.160 --> 4:03:48.600 on it. You can see that in the article, Like 4:03:48.680 --> 4:03:50.920 it just looks like a catering truck on a plane. 4:03:50.920 --> 4:03:53.880 But it's really funny to know that he's just squatting 4:03:53.920 --> 4:03:54.320 him there. 4:03:54.720 --> 4:03:57.160 Unfortunately, he's gotta be having the best time of his 4:03:57.200 --> 4:03:59.600 life doing this, right, Like he's just like, I bet. 4:03:59.440 --> 4:04:01.400 It was really fun, but it was super fun and 4:04:01.520 --> 4:04:02.280 he felt like a spy. 4:04:02.480 --> 4:04:02.720 I know. 4:04:03.120 --> 4:04:07.520 Yeah, yeah, it's a bummer god, but it is really 4:04:07.560 --> 4:04:09.960 funny because like there's a lot that's funny of this 4:04:10.080 --> 4:04:11.640 right now, and I can't, to be fair, I can't 4:04:11.680 --> 4:04:14.120 imagine any member of the White House Press Corps would 4:04:14.120 --> 4:04:15.200 be surprised at. 4:04:15.080 --> 4:04:18.000 The President using them as a decoy. In fact, before 4:04:18.040 --> 4:04:20.120 it was revealed that Trump had left the original Air 4:04:20.160 --> 4:04:22.160 Force one or Air Force one one for what I 4:04:22.160 --> 4:04:25.480 guess we'll call Air Force one three, this happened. Quote 4:04:25.800 --> 4:04:28.200 asked why reporters had been instructed to lower the window 4:04:28.240 --> 4:04:30.400 shades on the plane in Turkey, Trump said that it 4:04:30.440 --> 4:04:32.800 was because you're probably on a dangerous flight because of 4:04:32.840 --> 4:04:33.680 the sleeves bags we. 4:04:33.720 --> 4:04:34.360 Have to deal with. 4:04:34.600 --> 4:04:36.960 Trump said that he has a threat all the time 4:04:37.000 --> 4:04:38.920 against his life and that he is number one on 4:04:38.960 --> 4:04:41.640 Iran's list. But if I go, you go right, Trump 4:04:41.720 --> 4:04:45.080 suggested to reporters, Perhaps someday you want to change perfections. 4:04:45.960 --> 4:04:48.640 Christ He's really funny sometimes. 4:04:48.680 --> 4:04:49.720 I'm sorry, guys. 4:04:49.960 --> 4:04:52.320 It does feel like an eighties movie slake side plot. 4:04:52.520 --> 4:04:55.040 It really does. It really does. 4:04:56.080 --> 4:04:56.240 Now. 4:04:56.320 --> 4:04:58.240 The people I'd imagine might be kind of hurt by 4:04:58.240 --> 4:05:00.760 this are the staff members, like the member of Trump's 4:05:00.760 --> 4:05:03.480 White House who got chosen to fly on the Human 4:05:03.520 --> 4:05:06.200 Shield flight without being told, rather than being rerouted to 4:05:06.240 --> 4:05:08.560 Air Force one to three where the boss was flying, 4:05:08.880 --> 4:05:10.920 because not all of them were. Pete Hegseth was on 4:05:11.000 --> 4:05:13.680 Air Force one three with Trump right, he got rerouted 4:05:13.680 --> 4:05:16.240 to the real one. But a bunch of Trump's people 4:05:16.360 --> 4:05:18.720 just found out today that he put them on the 4:05:18.760 --> 4:05:20.480 death flight to see if a missile with him. 4:05:21.160 --> 4:05:23.040 And I think that's beautiful. 4:05:25.360 --> 4:05:25.800 Anyway. 4:05:25.840 --> 4:05:26.400 That's what I. 4:05:26.280 --> 4:05:28.240 Got, Margaret. 4:05:28.280 --> 4:05:32.400 Where can people listen to more cool people doing cool 4:05:32.440 --> 4:05:35.080 stuff like flock cameras? 4:05:35.440 --> 4:05:38.240 Well, you can listen to cool people who did cool stuff, 4:05:38.400 --> 4:05:41.320 which is usually about history, But lately, I've been doing 4:05:41.320 --> 4:05:43.640 a lot of history that sometimes happened a week or 4:05:43.720 --> 4:05:47.400 so ago, and it's on this very network or even 4:05:48.040 --> 4:05:52.480 in this very feed. You can listen to cools on 4:05:52.560 --> 4:05:55.280 Media book Club, where I read a different story every 4:05:55.280 --> 4:05:55.720 week to you. 4:05:56.280 --> 4:05:58.840 Also, James's new show Natural Causes coming out soon. 4:05:59.000 --> 4:06:02.400 Put a trendscoll on your We reported the news, We 4:06:02.520 --> 4:06:03.280 reported the news. 4:06:09.480 --> 4:06:12.640 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 4:06:12.720 --> 4:06:14.600 from now until the heat Death of the Universe. 4:06:15.360 --> 4:06:17.840 It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media. 4:06:18.040 --> 4:06:21.120 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 4:06:21.160 --> 4:06:24.760 Coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 4:06:24.840 --> 4:06:28.400 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 4:06:28.440 --> 4:06:30.760 now find sources where it could happen here listed directly 4:06:30.800 --> 4:06:33.080 in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.