WEBVTT - Martha Beck 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.400 Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:14.960 Heart Radio. Hello, Hello, beautiful people. I am so happy 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.239 to have you joined me for today's Holy Human because 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.520 my guest is seriously one of the wisest humans I 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:27.320 have ever come across, and I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.880 In addition to holding three degrees A B, A, M, A, 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:37.640 and PhD, all from Harvard University, Martha Beck is a sociologist, 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.400 world renowned life coach, and best selling New York Times author. 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:44.839 Her latest book of the Way of Integrity, Finding the 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:48.400 Path to Your True Self, has had a tremendous impact 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.840 on me and I cannot wait to share this conversation 0:00:51.880 --> 0:01:18.880 with you. Welcome to Holy Human, my friends, Martha Beck, 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.800 thank you so much for joining me today on Holy Human. 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.319 It is such an honor to have you on here. 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.240 And I have to say, um, there are very few 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:30.280 people that scare the ship out of me, and you 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:36.160 are one of them. Yes, because I am homicidal and 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.880 in the best of ways, in the best of ways, 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.080 I have so much respect for you and your life. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:50.279 I'm gonna cry because I just I just your level 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:55.920 of integrity, um is something like it's a north star. 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.760 It really is. Um. People like you, women like you 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:03.720 who uh really inspired me and you make me question 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:08.000 my life. Like I started reading Um, I started reading 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:09.519 two of your books at the same time. I started 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.519 on the Joy Diet and then I started in on 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.399 the Way of Integrity, and man, I had, I had. 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.840 I've had many conversations, like deep conversations of truth, UM, 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:26.720 and they have. Yeah, it's been the last four weeks 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:32.560 of those two books have been incredibly powerful and eye opening. Yeah, 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:36.440 so that's why you scare me. Well, you know, it's 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:38.520 so weird. You sit in your little I sit in 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.160 my bedroom typing away and then I throw stuff out 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.360 like a message in a bottle from a desert island, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:45.440 and you just sort of sit in your room going 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:49.840 to hope that works and then to hear back, you know, 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.400 through time and through space from someone I've admired for 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:57.760 a very long time. Is It's surreal in a very 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.720 wonderful way. But please do stay gared, because I like 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:07.160 people to be afraid as much as possible. Well, I mean, 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.360 do you. I think you kind of when you start 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.720 questioning everything about your life and you start to live 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.080 in this kind of level of integrity. I mean, I 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:17.760 feel like I have deep integrity, but I always know 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.800 that there's a new level. I guess, Um, you know, 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.799 like how honest can you be in the moment? I 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.320 do you feel like integrity? Do you feel like it 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:30.760 comes to you in layers like one? I know that 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.320 you wouldn't okay because I know one day you decided 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:38.400 to go through basically it was a year long integrity clans. 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.840 Basically like when you were going to lie. Um, how 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.760 do I mean, how does one just make that decision 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:48.200 and then keep it for a year? One word suffering 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.880 Like I was suffering so hard. I was depressed. I 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.080 was in a lot of physical pain, people from autoimmune diseases. 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.080 People didn't understand, and I was just desperate. And I 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.240 was like, they say, the truth will set you free, 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.160 So I'll try not lying for a year and see 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:06.600 what happens. And I might as well have detonated a 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:12.080 nuclear device. It just went like everything in my life, Um, 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.040 I either walked away or quit except for my children, 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:17.800 and I lost a lot of things. I lost a 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.080 lot of relationships, my family of origin, my religion of origin, 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:25.440 my job. Realized I didn't like it, so I do 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:30.839 not advise anyone out there to do to do things 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:35.520 that abruptly. Integrity literally means whole, and it's just about 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.000 doing what keeps you whole. Okay, So that's how you 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.320 define integrity, is what keeps you whole. Yeah, it's like 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.160 structural integrity and a machine. If the machine parts are 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.840 all lined up, it works. And that's not a judgment, 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.200 it's just what happens. And when you're living in the truth, 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.800 and I know you've done so much work on this, 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.039 when you're speaking the truth in your case, singing the truth, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.320 living the truth, all the hearts line up and the 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:05.800 machine of your life works incredibly well. So it's not 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.279 about integrity or I'll hate you and you'll be bad, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.320 you'll go to health. It's you've lost pieces of yourself, 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:15.880 bring them together and teach them to love each other, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.080 and you will not believe how the world transforms to 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.440 a gentle, benevolent space. I think that's what's so interesting 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.320 about that word integrity, because a lot of people consider it, 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.360 you know, a moral compass, and I know you talk 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:33.600 a lot about our true nature and culture clashing, which 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:38.800 I find like completely true in so many ways, Like 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.520 with with integrity. I think a lot of people think 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:43.320 of it as, like I said, a moral compass, and 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.160 whose moral compass are you going? Like? What we've been 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.240 fed and taught and if we never question those like, 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:55.400 do we ever find our integrity? No? I don't think 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.520 we do. And by culture I mean any group of 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.919 other people. So everybody. Anytime there are two people in 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.560 a room, culture is the third guest, like we all 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.440 and it's just pressure to behave in certain ways, and 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:15.760 we all have multiple cultures, family, ethnicity, whatever and what what. 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.000 We're born whole. We're born to our true nature, but 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.919 before we can even talk, we're pressured to do things 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.559 more the way other people like us. So maybe cry 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.560 less than you want to be, braver than you want to, 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.279 or less brave than you want to be. And we're 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:35.040 just structured so that, as little babies, we start splitting 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.880 away from our nature to serve the culture. And that 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:45.039 is emotionally and ultimately physically painful. It hurts to be 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:49.800 divided from yourself. So integrity is finding the lost parts 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.760 of yourself and bringing them back into the fold and 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:57.520 uniting with them and it feels wonderful. Well, you said 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:01.479 suffering was what inspired integrity. And then there's when you 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:05.160 blew up your life, which I've done a couple of times. Um, 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:10.480 it sucks. Um, you know it does. It sucks. But 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.000 I almost and I'll get I want to ask you 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:17.920 this because is there another way? But I do. It's 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.440 like you you go from one pain to the other. Um, yeah, 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.640 what's the if you're If you're going to be in 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:26.240 that much pain, I guess you might as well do 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.480 it in truth, right, I Mean that's the thing. Where 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:32.480 do we suffer either way? Well, the real, the clean 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.320 suffering doesn't last. So there's a guy I quote in 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.200 the book, Mario Martinez, who says, when you break from 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.600 the lies of your past, you go through something called morning, 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.160 the known misery. So you're grieving for what you knew 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.880 because it was familiar, it was all you knew, and 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:52.000 to be pulled away from that is this involves loss 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.880 in it initiates huge tidal waves of grief, like that's 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.440 how we process loss. But when you've lost yourself, it 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:03.800 never it never ends. It's just this dull, sad, painful 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.040 and whatever it is for your anger, whatever, it just 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.080 goes on and on and on. When you separate from 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.800 the things that have been pulling you away from your nature, 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.640 and you say, I must live according to my nature. 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.120 There's sorrow for losing the people and things that go away, 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.000 but it heals. It's like having a broken bone that's 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:26.040 been set and it heals. So it does, and and 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.200 we become strong in the broken places. So there's an 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:30.560 end to that suffering. And when we come out of it, 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:38.280 there's enormous joy, wherewith losing yourself there is none. Wow. Yeah, 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.679 that's powerful. The suffering, though, I mean the the avoidance 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.280 of grief. This has been something I've really been going 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:51.640 down myself and understanding how deeply I've built my life 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:56.240 around the avoidance of grief. Yeah, we all do that. Now. 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.800 We're running toward anything that feels good and away from 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:04.600 everything that feels pain, and that's perfectly normal. But when 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.440 it takes us away from the stillness in our cores, 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:13.360 when we lose that essential hardcore of ourselves, um, we 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.720 actually are running into a much worse form of suffering 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.319 than any grief. So Carl Young, the psychologist, said, every 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.480 neurosis is a substitute for legitimate suffering. And what he 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.000 means by that is if you're crazy. If you're messed 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.920 up in any way whatsoever, it's because there's a part 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.960 of you that can't quite face the legitimate suffering that 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.280 is part of your life story. And you have to 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:42.240 sit in that grief and let it consume you. And 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.000 it consumes all the pain, and it leaves you with nothing. 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.400 It's like a smelter. It leaves you with nothing but 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.440 pure gold. But it hurts, and it's normal to avoid 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.440 it for as long as you can. So don't blame 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.400 yourself if that's what you're doing that. No, I mean 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.480 I I just have come to understand it by some 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.120 really d work of like, Oh that's that's been a 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.440 guiding force in my life as to avoid grief. So 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.120 how do you go? Have you started going into it now, 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:12.760 changing and turning towards it? I think so a little 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.760 by little. Um, I haven't blown up my life yet. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:20.840 Um again, but I yeah, I always it's always time 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.760 for that. I'm only thirty nine. I'm about about to 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:27.040 turn forty in August. I feel like you know that 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.600 that's probably gonna blow up my life in some way. Um, 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:32.840 But I do think, like I say it as a 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.520 joke about it, but it's you know the times that 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:40.840 I have um, there has been so much, so much 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:44.199 beauty that's come out of that. It's just continuing, like 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.960 when do you how do you choose to turn towards it? 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.480 Like that's that's the hard part. Well, I had this, 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.360 you know. One of the events in my life was 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:57.360 that I had a child who was diagnosed with Down 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.280 syndrome before he was born. And I had just like 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.640 a few days where it would have been legal to 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.840 terminate the pregnancy. But and I'm actually pro choice, but 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:07.800 I want I was already in love with the baby, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.080 so I kept him. And I would walk around and 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.200 I was getting a PhD at Harvard at the time, 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.480 and I would walk around and see all these brilliant people, 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.400 and I think, my son will never be one of 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.120 these people. What can he do? You know? And then 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.560 I started to think what is worth doing. I'd go 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.439 into people's offices and they all look haunted and miserable, 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:29.240 and other students were miserable and exhausted, and I would think, 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.840 why why this this is like, we're at the apex 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.840 of academia. We should be happy. And then I thought, oh, 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.080 it's about being happy. Like one thing, my son absolutely 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.120 will be able to do his experience joy and so 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.760 that became the absolutely Emerson said, beauty is its own 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.920 excuse for being, and I think joy is its own 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:57.200 excuse for being. And going toward joy became the whole 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.280 focus of my life. So if it doesn't feel like joy, 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.120 I turn away from it. And sometimes that means I 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:07.280 turn into a situation that's hard or sad or scary. 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.400 But if the life I had led was not bringing 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.800 me joy and a situation is in the way of joy, 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.480 and I know it, I'm sort of honor bound to 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.720 go straight into the worst um the thing I'm avoiding 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.480 the most, and it's on the other side of the 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:26.360 thing I've been avoiding the most that I always find 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:32.000 the greatest liberation. Yeah. Absolutely, well that's true. Let's just turning, 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.040 just turning towards that thing. It doesn't need to hurry, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.440 like take it super easy and don't don't do it 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.720 one minute before you feel like it's the thing you 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.920 absolutely must do. Yeah. Well, I think what's been interesting 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.840 for me that I've been questioning is what is truth? 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:53.880 Because you know what what is truth? Because truth can 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.280 be very subjective, and like what's true for me right 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.360 now might not be true for me ten minutes from now. 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:04.880 When you talk about true nature or truth, like where 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:10.720 what is truth? How you're absolutely right? Is completely subjective 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.320 and we can't know, you know, and Um Descartes said, man, 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.480 the only thing I can know is that I'm thinking, 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.679 So I guess that's the reason I know I exist. 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.679 But I can't know if your truth is like my truth, 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.560 or if if any truth sustains. So the first thing 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.320 is um for me, I think there's a sense of 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.720 truth in us, and it comes when all our ways 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.320 of making meaning, our mind, our heart, our body, and 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:38.280 our soul they all align and there's a sensation of 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:43.160 physical sensation that comes with that, of of landing, of loosening. 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.400 And it's only in the present moment. The truth never 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.439 goes to the pastor of the future. It's always right here, 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.320 right now, and it's we enter it by feeling something 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.880 with our entire bodies. And there's actually a phrase. After 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.280 years and years of coaching, I kept trying to see 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.320 what would give people that ring of truth or that sensation, 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.560 and the biggest thing I found was the phrase, I 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.480 am meant to live in peace. So anyone I've I've 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.480 worked with people in prison, I've worked with people who 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.520 should be in prison but aren't. I've worked with billionaires, 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:19.200 and there's never been a person who said that didn't 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.320 feel true to them. I am meant to live in peace. 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.120 So then if you find I mean, if you say 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:29.680 that a couple of times in your mind, do you 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:35.480 feel it? There's a wholeness and alignment that comes. Mm hmm. 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:41.920 There's there's a kind of quiet calm. Yeah, and it 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.800 can go so deep. At first we don't even notice 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.360 it because our culture is all about bright lights, big city, 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:53.840 you know, big noise, and it's so quiet, but damn 0:14:54.000 --> 0:15:00.120 it goes down forever into this place of sweetness and 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.560 it becomes this sort of fountain that can feed you 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:07.840 every minute of your life. Mm hmmm. What are your 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.040 How do you stay connected to that in your everyday life? 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:17.120 I meditate. That's that's like bedrock. Every culture in the 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.920 world has its own way of saying, go sit by 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.440 yourself for a while and don't make any noise. Um. 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.920 But I also writing as a form of staying on 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.080 on truth. For me, because I'm very alert when I'm writing. 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.200 I associate with people who bring me that joy, and 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.960 who will tell me when I'm lying, They will call 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:43.200 me on my bullshit. And I love that. So I 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.800 just structure my whole life around staying in that zone 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:48.880 of joy because I don't ever want to leave it. 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:54.960 It sucks to leave it. All right, We are going 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.600 to leave that thought for just a moment, for a 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:07.200 quick break, but we'll be right back, and we're back 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.760 with Martha Beck talking about the joyous but sometimes complicated 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.640 concept of joy. Joy has been really interesting for me, 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:18.760 and I think it might be for a lot of people, 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.560 and in the way that it can feel very uncomfortable. Um. 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.720 I grew up a gripping as an only child, and 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:30.920 I had a mom who was very depressed and sad 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.960 and a dad who was angry, and so you know, 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:42.760 being in joy was almost um it was something that 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:48.000 would almost alienate my parents. Um oh yeah, absolutely, it 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.160 was threatening. I guess. Wow, that's that's a hell of 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.960 a culture to run into, as you know, as an 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:57.520 innocent little baby. Wow. So have you found it? Have 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.000 you found a sensation where you they're these moments when 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.320 and for me, they used to be incredibly rare and 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.800 when all these forces would align and for one moment 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.359 I would feel this sweetness and this clarity, and I 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.040 would think, please, please never let me lose this, and 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:18.400 then I would lose it. Yeah, of course, don't go No, Yes, 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.960 I have had. I actually I just finished writing and 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.560 recording an album and I had I wrote this song 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.400 called Innocent on my album, and I had this moment. 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.800 I was doing some somatic work and I had this 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.720 moment where like innocence and this this joy was like 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.920 outside of me, it was up here, and I found 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:42.920 this moment where it like dropped into my body and 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.760 it was I just burst into tears because it was 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:50.840 so like you're saying, sweet and pure, And out of 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:53.399 that came a song. But I remember, for about forty 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.920 eight hours, I could like tap back into that place 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.399 of like for me, it felt like endless possibility and 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:06.280 just openness and sweetness and like you're saying, it was like, 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:10.240 please don't go anywhere. Um Can I recreate this feeling 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.800 of dropping it and I can revisit it to an 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:19.880 extent um and I find moments. I've been looking more 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.399 for moments of joy in my life because it's so 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.639 easy for our brain too, you know, when we're locked 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.040 into this old trauma pattern of finding trying to keep 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.639 ourselves safe. It's so easy to miss out on the 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:37.680 joy that is present. So for me, that one experience 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.000 made me realize, oh that is that is part of 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:45.920 my true nature and I I do miss it when 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.680 it's not there. It's very it's very heartbreaking. Can you 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.800 find it? And this is I'm putting on the spot. 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:57.920 Can you find it now? Yeah? I can. There's a 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:02.600 sense of it. So like where sorry, this is turning 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.280 into a country where totally people learned through me too. 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.320 So where is it? Where is it in your body? 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:18.240 I feel it like here around your head? Yeah, people, 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:21.040 I can't see. Um, I feel it like around my 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:26.840 left side, especially of my my face, my head, my shoulder. 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:32.840 What does it feel like physically? Um, it feels very vibratory. Yeah, 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:38.920 it feels light. So can you go into that, like 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.840 put all your attention, as you said, onto that and 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:48.400 make it make the vibration stronger and deeper and louder, stronger, deeper, 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:55.320 louder that. Yeah, And it's about focus. I mean right 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.120 now you've sort of you're sort of looking up into 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.359 the to the left I think, so you're using a 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.800 certain part of your brain to track the sensation of 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.680 joy the way a hunter might track an animal um 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:08.920 to keep it as a pet, not to kill it 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.199 um exactly. But we all have ways that we can 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.680 track it, and we have to sit quietly to find that. 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:20.399 It's a deep internal uh sort of knowledge. In the 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:25.000 East and Asia, science and the great thinkers didn't look 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.280 at the outside world the way they did in the West. 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:32.280 They turned inward and everything was about tracking joy through 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:36.040 the body, tracking suffering through the body, the mind, the soul, 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.879 and it can go as deeply into you as an 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:43.240 astronomer could study the galaxies going outward like it's infinite, 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.200 and it becomes quite fascinating when you start to find 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.520 it and feel it and then be able to hold it. 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:53.760 And I actually think you really did that brilliantly in 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:58.720 your Human and Holy album Thank You, Like the song 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:07.560 be Still and No Damn, you actually make audible a 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:11.399 vibration that I had I love to find in meditation. 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:15.160 And I love that because it was just just turn 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.920 on a song and it can take you where hours 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.399 of meditation might not be able to. So I know 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.679 you've been there, and I know well that came through meditation. 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.760 I mean those songs, everything that I was on that record, 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:30.639 I sat and meditated, and in fact I did it 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:32.639 right before we jumped on here because I'm working on 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.760 the next chair record, and I just sat there and 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.600 I just I listen and I whatever, I don't judge it, 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.440 and just let whatever comes through come through. And it's 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:49.359 so cool too to see, just like what spills out 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:54.359 of my mouth from silence. It's so fascinating because, um, 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:56.639 we know from brain science that if you put two 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:58.240 people in a room and they don't even talk to 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:03.359 each other, three people whatever, within twenty minutes, they're the 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:07.000 vibrations of their brain, the patterns of electrical activity in 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:09.960 the brain and in the heart will will come to 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:12.640 match the calmest person in the group, even though they're 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.480 not speaking or looking at each other. And it's something 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.640 called entrainment, and it actually pulls the brain state. It's 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:23.640 an electrical signal. Just like our iPhones or our laptops 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:27.639 or whatever are electrical machines that operate wirelessly. We're the 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:30.600 same thing. Are our nervous systems are electrical systems made 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:35.280 of meat, and they have a wireless communication and feature. 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:39.639 And um, certain sounds and certain and the presence of 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:44.080 certain people will pull other people's energy into that state. 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:46.960 So I can't say enough about that album of yours 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:51.480 because it pulls that state in and makes it so 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:55.600 much easier to access. And it's like getting a piggyback 0:22:55.720 --> 0:23:00.840 ride to happiness. Love it, love it. That makes me 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.600 so happy. You know, music is music is amazing. It's 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:12.400 such a gift to be able to write and express emotionally, 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:16.280 like what not only I'm feeling, but like I know, 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:20.320 I speak for so many people when I do emote 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:24.520 and express, and it's such a cool gift. And then 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:28.320 to to be able to write my feelings down. I've 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:32.320 always been in awe of that process because like we create. 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:34.000 I mean, when you write a book, it's the same 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.080 thing you when you're a creator, you create something out 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:41.040 of thin air, like from nothing, and then you sit there. 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.359 I was. I was playing my the actual record of 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:46.560 my new album UM the other night, and I's just 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:49.080 sitting there bawling because I'm like, this is such a 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:52.840 gift that has come through me UM, which I love 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:56.240 because you talk a lot about creativity and creative energy, 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:00.560 and I think one of the biggest Miskins options about 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:04.800 creative energy and creativity is that only creators quote unquote 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.639 creators like that create music or art art creators and 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:14.040 we all came from creative energy. Like that's yeah, And 0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:17.280 is that when you talk about true nature? I mean 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:22.440 that creative energy is that basically the core? Yes, And 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:26.200 interestingly the whole the way life fragments us, and it 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:28.840 fragments us all we all get pulled away from our 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:31.920 true nature is just the way things are in human life. 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:35.040 So we get fragmented, and parts of ourselves go out 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.520 and suffer because they're separate, and they're split away from truth, 0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:42.520 from love, from wholeness. Then when we come together. The 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:46.240 interesting thing about creativity is seen from a brain perspective, 0:24:46.920 --> 0:24:49.199 is that it occurs when things that are very different 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:52.159 are brought together. And there's actually a thing in the 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:56.399 brain called a far transfer where something that's really different 0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.359 from anything you've thought ever connects with something else that 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.200 you're thinking, and it brings this brand new thing that 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:05.719 no one else could bring in because nobody else has 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.119 the same fragments. So even the suffering that we have, 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:12.600 but I mean, that's my justification for suffering. It hurts 0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:15.280 a lot, and we're having all these experiences. But then 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:17.879