1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, everyone's an expert because a brand 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: has like flown you first class to like tour their facilities, 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: like come on. 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: There are no girls on the Internet. 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 3: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 3: Todd and this is there are no girls. 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 2: On the Internet. 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 3: Lately, folks have been having conversations about our consumption, habits 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 3: and the internet, like should we really be fawning over 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 3: the Kardashians over consumption on social media? And for a 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 3: hut second, deinfluencing was a thing where, rather than telling 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 3: you to buy more stuff, influencers actually told you what 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 3: stuff not to buy. Until that is, the whole thing 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 3: was kind of co opted by brands who are basically like, yeah, girl, 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 3: the influence, don't buy this stuff, buy our stuff instead. 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 3: And of course those fashion where people on TikTok show 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 3: off bags and bags of stuff they bought from fast 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 3: fashion retailers. Now it is impossible to talk about fast 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 3: fashion without talking about she in pronounced she in as 20 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 3: in she in trouble for those TikTok videos. As Madison 21 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 3: Malone Kirsher put it at The New York Times, she 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 3: and clothes are cheap, suspiciously cheap, cheap enough that it 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 3: makes you think, how could this dress really only cost 24 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 3: six dollars? 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: Well, if a slew of recent reports or any. 26 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 3: Indication, the answer is forced labor, human rights violations, stealing designs, 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 3: gamifying our online shopping habits, wreaking havoc on our environment, 28 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 3: and selling us clothes full of chemicals that make us sick. 29 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 3: Last year, Wired did a great investigative deep dive about 30 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: the toll that all of this takes on both the 31 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 3: people who make Shean's clothing and the people like us 32 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: who buy it. And there's another thread to this web too, influencers, 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: the people who go on social media and chill for 34 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 3: brands on line for profit. So given all this, all 35 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 3: of this harm can influencers, many of whom talk a 36 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: big game about causes like supporting women or championing the environment, 37 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 3: can they ethically hype up fast fashion retailers. Last week, 38 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 3: after a disastrous she and brantrip, the Internet answered with 39 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 3: a resounding and loud no. And Aja Barber, author of 40 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 3: Consumed The Need for Collective Change, Colonialism, climate change, and Consumerism, 41 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: says that the Internet's reaction might be a sign that 42 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 3: maybe what we're really craving isn't a five dollars crop 43 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 3: top at all, but a new and better system, one 44 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: that isn't built on exploitation. 45 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: I've written this book called Consumed. If you are interested 46 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: in what we talk about today, please get it. You 47 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: will really really be shocked by some of the stuff 48 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: you learned. 49 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: I kind of think of you as like the og 50 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: person talking about sustainability, Like maybe there were people doing 51 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 3: it before you, but you were deckfinitely the first voice 52 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 3: I heard doing it. So I kind of have to 53 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 3: start there, like did you just kind of start having 54 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 3: these conversations and help the rest of the world caught up? 55 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,399 Speaker 2: And like like you're like, I'll be here when y'all 56 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: are ready. 57 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's there was no like turning point. But 58 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I just kind of was like, I 59 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: think this system might be kind of crappy. I always 60 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: had a niggling feeling with Fast Fashion that there was 61 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: something really crappy going on. I couldn't just shut up 62 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: and shop. I was kind of a bit like, but 63 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: how do they get these prices so low? Like just 64 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: constantly asking myself that. Even though like there were times 65 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: where I couldn't afford anything different, but I still had 66 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: to ask the question, especially as a curious person and 67 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: as someone who likes to do crafts and knit and sew. 68 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: But the other part of it was I found that 69 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: people really did not like having this conversation consumerism. It 70 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: has its claws in us. And I noticed in some 71 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: spaces that you and I were in together, like people 72 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: could be as lefty and right on and righteous about 73 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: every topic under the sun. But if I were like, hey, guys, 74 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: I think maybe we shouldn't be shopping it forever twenty 75 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: one because I think they're exploiting people, it would be like, you, 76 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: you know, fart it in the pool. Everyone would start 77 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: like throwing like tomatoes at you and get really mad 78 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: and be super defensive. And I was like, oh, okay, 79 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: consumerism has us in like a death grip. And so 80 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: I started to just notice that there was a lot 81 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: of inconsistency within people's behavior in this conversation, like yeah, 82 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: support on women, super feminists, right on women, but also 83 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: like let's not buy someone clothing boo. And so I 84 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: kind of just was always in spaces where I would 85 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: sort of like test the waters for the conversation and 86 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: I kind of feel like I've been talking about this 87 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: for like ten years now. I've been thinking about it 88 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: for ten years now, and it's kind of like jumping 89 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: into a jump rope, like a double dutch jump rope, 90 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: Like you're going like this, You're waiting for the moments 91 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: you test the water and you're like, Nope, they're not ready. 92 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: And then there just became a moment where it was like, Okay, 93 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: I think people are ready to have this conversation now. 94 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's a mixture of us 95 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: realizing that like climate change is coming for us all 96 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: and like these systems are aiding in it and no 97 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: one's going to be saved, or whether it was people 98 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: actually starting to realize that, like, these systems aren't good 99 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: for us. All they're doing is creating billionaires and oppression. 100 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: But it finally feels like folks have have come around. 101 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 3: From following you and other folks who create content about sustainability. 102 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 3: People do have these very strong, sometimes pretty weird, defensive 103 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 3: reactions when you talk about what you talk about. Like 104 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 3: I've seen people say like, oh, this is really a 105 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 3: classes because some people can only afford to shop fast fashion, 106 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 3: or this is really fat phobic because this maybe this 107 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 3: brand is the only size this person can find to 108 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: fit them. 109 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 2: Why do you think that is? 110 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: And how do we how do you have these conversations 111 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 3: in a way where folks can actually hear and like 112 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 3: take in what you're saying without jumping to that defensive point. 113 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: I just feel like I have been repeating the same 114 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: thing for one hundred years now. I'm just kidding. It 115 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: is just really saying like the same thing. And one 116 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: of the first things that I realized that people were 117 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: deeply hypocritical about is we're having a conversation about poverty, 118 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: but like folks do not want to include the garment 119 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: where and the people that make the clothing in that conversation. 120 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: That is deeply hypocritical, and that is tied to a 121 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: weird colonialist idea that we think that if somebody lives 122 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: over there, they should be okay with being poor. That's 123 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: that's because you also hear it when people say things 124 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: like well, that's a good job in that country, and 125 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: I always sort of push back a little and go, okay, 126 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: well do you want to do that job? And they're 127 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: like no, And then I'm like okay, why not? And 128 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: they're like, well, well, well, and then they start getting 129 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: backed into a corner and super defensive. But what I 130 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: want people to do is like recognize that, like they're 131 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: playing a part in these colonialist ideas as we're all 132 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: talking about like decolonizes and that. 133 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: You know what I mean, Like. 134 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: There was a time period where everybody was sort of 135 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: talking about colonialism and how it shows up today. But 136 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: the mere idea that you think someone in the Global 137 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: South wouldn't want to make the same nice wages we 138 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: do for the same sort of work that we used 139 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: to do in our country, that's a colonialist idea. The 140 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: idea that you think that someone should be grateful for 141 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: a crappy job in an unsafe factory with bad wages, 142 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: that's a colonialist idea. And then at the end of 143 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: this system, because it is a linear system production, usage, 144 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: end of life, we also have a colonialist idea that 145 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: somebody in the Global South wants our scraps because a 146 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: lot of the clothing that we buy today isn't the 147 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: same quality that it was twenty years ago. Because that's 148 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: how you push billions of garments on your consumers by 149 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: like really making sure that the quality is not great, 150 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 1: so people are constantly buying, but also people are buying 151 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 1: for a lot more reasons than that. But you know, 152 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: we we buy twenty times more clothing than we bought 153 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety and that means that there's a lot 154 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: more waste and a lot more stuff being donated. And 155 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: because we're buying such large quantities of clothes, a lot 156 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: of what is being donated ends up in the Global South, 157 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: usually in parts of Africa, being someone else's problem. So 158 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: for instance, within the book Consumed, I write about Cantamanto 159 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: Market and Akra, Ghana, and they receive fifteen million items 160 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: of clothing every week from the Global North. Now, obviously 161 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: this market is not going to be able to resell 162 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: fifteen million items, which means sixty percent of what arrives 163 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: in Ghana is waste. And when it becomes waste, it 164 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: ends up everywhere it's not supposed to be. So the 165 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: municipal dump has filled up ten years ahead of schedule. 166 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: The dump catches on fire because of all the clothing waste, 167 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: which also like a lot of that stuff we're putting 168 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,599 Speaker 1: on our body, and you should see how it's not decomposing. 169 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: You know, it ends up on the beach. The beach 170 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: there is incredibly polluted from the clothing waste it ends 171 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: up in neighborhoods, and so what we've created is a 172 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: system of waste colonialism. But we have tricked ourselves into 173 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: saying that, like, oh, somebody in Africa is really going 174 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: to be really happy with this T shirt with a 175 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: twisted seam that I don't want to wear anymore because 176 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 1: I know it's not good, but they're poor, so they 177 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: can have it, you know what I mean. So, like, 178 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: from start to finish, this system completely craps on non 179 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: white people. Your clothing is either is made by a 180 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: non white person in the Global South, usually in someone 181 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: who's impoverished, and then at the end of its life 182 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: we just dump it right back in the Global South 183 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: on someone else. And that is why it is a 184 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: racist system. And that is why when people say, like, oh, 185 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: it's it's classes that you should criticize this, I think 186 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: they're just sort of dodging an actual conversation where we 187 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: should talk about what our places and this Now there 188 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: won't There will always be people who can't make different decisions, right, 189 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: Like the Shian trousers are the ones that they need 190 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: for work. And those are the trousers they need for work. Fine, 191 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: that's not the vast majority of us. And when you 192 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: look at the profit margins that fast fashion is pulling in, 193 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: if all the poor people on the planet put all 194 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: of their money together, they couldn't create these profit margins. 195 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: These massive, inflated billion dollar profit margins that the fast 196 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: fashion industry is pulling in annually is created with money 197 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: from customers who are over consuming and buying often. And 198 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: the people that can do that are middle and upper 199 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: class people. 200 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 3: So we let's talk about that, because I mean, by 201 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 3: now you probably are sick of thinking about it, talking 202 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 3: about it, being asked about it. 203 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: I will never get sick of asking about it, talking 204 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: about it until we stick it to these corporations. I 205 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,719 Speaker 1: want to. I just want to get them, so like, no, 206 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,599 Speaker 1: I'm not tired of it. I will talk about it 207 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: until the cows come home, because I want these billionaires 208 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: to pay for what they've done. 209 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 3: Don't worry, Aja and I talk all about that disastrous 210 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 3: she and brandtrip after a quick break. 211 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 2: At our back to launder the. 212 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 3: Company's unsavory reputation stemming from worker mistreatment and environmental and 213 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 3: health harms. Shean called in the influencers. She and flew 214 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 3: a handful of influencers to Guangho, China, to tour one 215 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 3: of Shean's factories and to visit its innovation center. It's 216 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 3: well lit, clean, and it actually looks like a pretty 217 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 3: okay place to work. The influencers speak to workers about 218 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 3: rumors of their mistreatment, and the workers say, oh no, 219 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: we are being well paid and enjoy easy commutes. It 220 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: all seems pretty rosy, much like that suspiciously cheap crop cup. 221 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 3: Maybe a little too rosy, and that's because they were 222 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: probably not actually talking to employees representative of the typical 223 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 3: employee experience at Chan, nor were they in a typical 224 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 3: representative factory. Garment experts spotted pretty quickly that the facility 225 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 3: the influencers were touring couldn't possibly be where Sheen makes 226 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 3: the clothes they sell, But that didn't keep these influencers 227 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: from making glowing positive content about what they saw and 228 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 3: Shean's practices. One influencer, Danny dmc, their videos were particularly 229 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 3: rage baby, and I'm not even totally sure why. Maybe 230 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 3: it's the way Danny refers to themselves as quote an 231 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 3: investigative journalist and an independent thinker who gets all the 232 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 3: facts and doesn't fall for negative Western propaganda about Shean 233 00:13:58,240 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 3: like the rest of us. 234 00:13:59,000 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: Sheep. 235 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 3: Danny didn't really say that, but the gist was pretty 236 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 3: clear though. In subsequent videos where Danny walks back their 237 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 3: partnership with Sheen, they say they were paid very well 238 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 3: by Sheen, and at other times they say no one 239 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: is paying them to say these positive things about the company. 240 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: There was just something about Danny's video that was just 241 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 3: kind of smug, easy to hate, and oh boy did people. 242 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: Online hate And trust me, I get it. 243 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 3: But Aja says, Sheen and the influencers who got flack 244 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 3: for shilling for them are low hanging fruit because Sheen 245 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 3: is such a big company. But they are not the 246 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 3: only ones contributing to the harm here, not by a 247 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 3: long shot. They're just the one that's the easiest to 248 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: get mad about. I do think that we have these 249 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: ways of making ourselves feel better about something that deep 250 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 3: down we know is harmful, and I think that the 251 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 3: Shean influencership is a really good example of that on 252 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 3: a completely different scale, where you know, yeah, it would 253 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: be nice to I think that those influencers were walking 254 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 3: around this like clean, safe looking garment factory, and that 255 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: that is actually where San produces their clothing. It would 256 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 3: be nice to think that like their workers are treated well, 257 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 3: but come on, like we know the truth? 258 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: Can I also say, do any of these influencers talk 259 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: about this thing on their grid? Talk about this particular topic? 260 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: Ever? 261 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: Like why are you all suddenly experts? Would you never 262 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: discuss things like fair wages, fair treatment, ethical fashion, that 263 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: sort of thing. All of a sudden, everyone's an expert 264 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: because a brand has like flown you first class to 265 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: like tour their facilities. 266 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 3: Like, come on, what were your thoughts when you first 267 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 3: saw this video blowing up? 268 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: What were your thoughts? 269 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: Just generally, I thought, well, this company has found themselves 270 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: a useful crop of fool Like yay, they've been looking 271 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: for him and they just walked right in. 272 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: They were like we're here. 273 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: Oh oh, Like I there's a okay? So I go 274 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: back and forth right because I obviously there's a part 275 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: of me that feels like these influencers, while they are 276 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: full of hubris about like their own importance and knowledge, 277 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: they're indicative of a larger problem. And I do feel 278 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: like the Internet loves a bit of low hanging fruit, 279 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: like and this is some low hanging fruit right here, 280 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: because it's indicative of a larger problem with a system 281 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: where the vast majority of people that you follow on 282 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: social media, if they are selling clothing, are actually selling 283 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: sweatshop clothes. It's just easier to go after the group 284 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: that decided to go with Goliath, and she and is 285 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: a goliath in this system. But H and them still 286 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: can't say that they can guarantee that every person in 287 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: their supply chain is paid a living wage. Influencers work 288 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: with H and M. You know how many people that 289 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: everyone follows sells clothing. I don't sell clothing on my grid. 290 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: I work with one designer who is extremely ethical, and 291 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: we do not sell a lot of pieces because people 292 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: are still not grasping that it is worth it to 293 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: actually like buy ethical clothing. It doesn't sell at the 294 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: same rate. So I'm not going to be a millionaire 295 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: from that. I do it because when I started my collaboration, 296 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of ethical fashion that could be 297 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: made in any size because it was still sort of 298 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: an up and up thing. Now there's a lot more options, 299 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: But that was why I wanted. 300 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 2: To do it. 301 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: I knew I wasn't going to like be really rich 302 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: off of it, but I don't really aspire to that anyways. 303 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: But at the root of it on social media is 304 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: somebody is completely monetizing their life through social media and 305 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: they're selling clothing. A lot of that is good to 306 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: be unethical clothing, because it's very hard to make an 307 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: entire living off of selling clothing without working with one 308 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: of the bigger companies that frankly is exploiting people. It's 309 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: so endemic and we're so used to it, and we're 310 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: so used to looking the other way. But the truth is, 311 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: I think that people need to maybe spread it around 312 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: a bit, like, yeah, obviously you call yourself an investigative journalist, 313 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: Like that's gonna come for you. That was wild, The 314 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: internet is going to come for you. But like, at 315 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: the end of the day, I think a lot of 316 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: people follow people online that have platforms that are selling 317 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: you exploitative goods, and we're not questioning that enough, but 318 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: maybe we should, you know, maybe everyone's sponsors should be 319 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: questioned in that way, because the truth is, influencers. This 320 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: system of fast fashion would exist without influencers, and if 321 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: it did, it would be a lot smaller, and people 322 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: would not beginning as rich as they're getting. But like, 323 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: part of the reason brands can afford to fly influencers 324 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,239 Speaker 1: around the world on lavish trips is because they're not 325 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: paying garment workers. If everyone we're paid fairly, a lot 326 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: of these influencer trips, just the budgets for the marketing 327 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: would not be the same. So I think we need 328 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 1: to really get straight with the fact that people in 329 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: our society, some who are at the top of the 330 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: charts when it comes to privilege, are trading on other 331 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: people's lives in these systems. Like you know, I see 332 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people who have platforms and some of them, 333 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: deep down inside you kind of know this person is 334 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: like independently wealthy and they don't even have to sell 335 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: sweatshop goods, and then they still do, and it's like why, Hey, 336 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: why are we supporting this. When a celebrity wears like 337 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: fast fashion, everyone's like, you're like one with the people, 338 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: and it's like, no, thisels real. They're happy to exploit people. Yeah, 339 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: you're so real with your sweatshop guards, Like, why are 340 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: we celebrating this? So I think we haven't been entirely 341 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: honest with ourselves for a long time in this conversation, 342 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: But you know, no time like the present. 343 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 3: Once upon a time, I was an influencer, or at 344 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 3: least kind of trying to be one. I know, right, 345 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: hard to believe, but this was back during the time 346 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 3: where it seems like if you wanted to have any 347 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 3: platform at all, you had to also be an influencer. 348 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: And I stopped because it just didn't make me feel 349 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 3: very good. I quickly started feeling like if I wanted 350 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 3: to make any real money doing it, I had to 351 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 3: say yes to working with any brand that would have me, 352 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 3: whether I wanted to or not. Because influencing is kind 353 00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 3: of like the new wanting to be a rock star 354 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 3: or a professional baseball player. I looked it up, and 355 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 3: study after study suggests that more and more kids say 356 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 3: they want to be influencers when they grow up. So 357 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: if it's a crowded space that supposedly everybody wants to 358 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 3: be in, maybe that's why I felt like I just 359 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 3: had to take whatever came to me. But something that 360 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 3: she and brand Trip really shows is the consequences when 361 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 3: influencers are not choosy and intentional about what brands they 362 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 3: lend their platforms to. And maybe that's in part because 363 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 3: there are just too many influencers now. Don't get me wrong, 364 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 3: Influencing is very real work, and I want folks to 365 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 3: be paid for their labor. But the crowded space can 366 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 3: create these conditions where influencers are not necessarily thinking critically 367 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 3: about the corporations they're shilling for. Instead, they're just worried 368 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 3: about booking that brand deal and getting that check. 369 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 2: And in a world where all of our oppression is connected, 370 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 2: that just doesn't sit right with me. 371 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 3: You know, you really hit on something that I think 372 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 3: is complicated, So I want to choose my words carefully. 373 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 3: Know this is also part in part a conversation about 374 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 3: influencers and the influencer economy. Right, I very briefly tried 375 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 3: my hand at being an influencer, and part of part 376 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 3: of why that didn't work out was that you just 377 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 3: you end up feeling crappy because you end up feeling 378 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 3: like you can't say no. You have to say yes, 379 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 3: especially when you're just starting out, or when you're like 380 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 3: a black woman or woman of color, or like marginalized 381 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 3: in some way. Right, And so I know that influencing 382 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 3: it's It's an easy thing to like make fun of, 383 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 3: but it is work. And I want influencers to be paid. 384 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 3: But an influencer, yeah, you know it more than anybody. 385 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 3: But an influencer being paid does not negate the harm 386 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 3: that the company paying them is doing. Like the influencer 387 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 3: who made that She And video was like, well, we 388 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 3: were paid very well and they flew us. It was 389 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 3: really a good experience, And I was like, I don't 390 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 3: think people are responding because they were worried that she 391 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 3: and wasn't paying their influencer as well. It's about the 392 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 3: human rights abuse, It's about it's about the the like 393 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 3: at the responsibilities that this company is skirting. And so 394 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 3: I wonder how do we make sense of like wanting 395 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: influencers to be paid for their for their labor, but 396 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 3: also wanting them to do so in a way that 397 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 3: is not contributing to harm, Because I felt like there 398 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: was no no way to square that circle, and I 399 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 3: was like, influencing is not for me, because to make 400 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 3: any real money, you basically have to chill for things 401 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 3: that are not values a lot, which is like didn't 402 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 3: make any sense, and so I don't even really know 403 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 3: what I'm asking but how can how can we square that? 404 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 2: Well? 405 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I get a little bit worried that 406 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: too many people want to be influencers because people want 407 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: to be famous regardless of what they do, and that's 408 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: the issue. And then it sort of became like, oh, 409 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: you can only have a platform if you like speak 410 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: on you know, certain topics or you have like what's 411 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: your your niche issue that you care about. And then 412 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: I thought, oh god, let's get ready for some real, 413 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: like empty dialogue, you know what I mean. Like everybody's 414 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: got like a everyone's got a cause, you know, and 415 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: it's just like a lot of people, I'm like, you 416 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: can just admit you just want to be famous. You 417 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: don't have to be like oh yeah, And I'm like, 418 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, I'm a mental health person. 419 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: Mental health like one. Like it's so annoying. 420 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 3: You're like, you know, just be It's okay to want 421 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 3: just want to be famous and have a platform. 422 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 2: You don't need to you don't need to opine publicly. 423 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,959 Speaker 1: Every everybody wants to have like a cause so that 424 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: they can be like I'm deep, and it's like maybe 425 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: we don't all need to have this because we're having 426 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: a lot of shallow conversations now. But at the end 427 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: of the day, I don't think the world needs as 428 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: many influencers as we have. I don't think that it's 429 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: really an occupation that Like I've read some survey and 430 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: I don't remember where, but it was like one out 431 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: of seven school children who's like asked about what they 432 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: want to be when they grow up, says they want 433 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: to be an influencer. And I'm like, no, no, yeah, 434 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think this idea of wanting to be 435 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: famous just for being famous is it's quite weird, to 436 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: be honest. For me, I've always seen platforms as a 437 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: way to open doors to things that I've always wanted 438 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: to do. So, like I have always wanted to write, 439 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: but like you know, I told my parents, Oh, I 440 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: want to write, and they were like, yeah, good luck 441 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: with that. There's so many black women writers out there 442 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: that are being celebrated in our society. It's just like, 443 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: you know, twenty years ago, so I wasn't encouraged to 444 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: go into this path, and so I kind of saw 445 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: having a platform as a way of achieving the things 446 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,719 Speaker 1: that I wanted to do career wise. And I think 447 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: we really have to question, like who are we following 448 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: and why? You know, Like, I guess we shouldn't be 449 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: that surprised that people want platforms just to be famous 450 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: in a world where like no one can stop talking 451 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: about the Kardashians, you know, I think it's really indicative 452 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: of our society. But at the end of the day, 453 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: I just think maybe we just need fewer people wanting 454 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: to like go after this sort of work, because at 455 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: the end of the day, we're propping up something that 456 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think is great, Like there could be 457 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: a lot of great things achieved from online spaces. But 458 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: if people, if everybody wants to have a cause, and 459 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: everybody claims to care about the same stuff like oh, 460 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 1: I don't want to impress women, then what are we 461 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 1: doing in this conversation? You know, how do we get 462 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 1: to this place? And I think we also need to 463 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: understand that, like influencing is a fairly young occupation. It's 464 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: been what around for like twenty years or so, so 465 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: like my generation had the ability to shape this occupation 466 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: to something that could be great, and we've just found 467 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: ourselves in the same capitalist healthscape where the corporations have 468 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: everyone under their thumb, And so I really think that 469 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: influencers need to think about, like what is it that 470 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: we're trying to achieve, and like maybe if we get 471 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: with the winning team and all start to maybe organize 472 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: a little bit, not only can we fight for better 473 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,719 Speaker 1: for ourselves, but we can transform industries. Fast fashion wouldn't 474 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: sell without people willing to sell it. But we need 475 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: to really get with the winning team about like what 476 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: that looks like and what those sorts of sacrifice look 477 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: like if we want everyone to be paid. Like, at 478 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: one point in time, people are sort of kicking around 479 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: this idea of an influencer union in the UK, and 480 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: when asked about it, I was just like no, because 481 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: I'm the daughter of a union president ex union president. 482 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: But your union has to recognize other unions. You have 483 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: to have a code of ethics. And if the majority 484 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: of the if the majority of the sponsors of the 485 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: people within this union are brands that bust unions, then 486 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: what are we doing. You can't unionize while not recognizing 487 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: other people's unions. That's not how that works. And so 488 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: like we're at a crossroads where people really need to 489 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: like figure out what sits right with their morals. And 490 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: I'm never going to say that like influencing is easy, 491 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: because it isn't. I think that content creators can be 492 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: incredibly skilled, but it is still an occupation that is like, 493 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, you're not cleaning gutters, you know what I mean, 494 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: Like you're not You're not like, you know, like there's 495 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: a lot of other occupations you could do. It doesn't 496 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: have to be the one where like you know that 497 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: the highs are high and the lows are low, you know, 498 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: And so people people need to get right with their 499 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: ethics here. And what that's really going to look like 500 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: is folks sitting stuff out. Like we're all looking at 501 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: the Writer's Guild strike and I'm like right on, like 502 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: union strong, you know, just like power to the workers, 503 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: you know, like we're all watching this go down. But 504 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: like people don't realize what solidarity should look like across 505 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: the board, you know. So if you are like an 506 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: influencer and you don't want to like oppress people and 507 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: sell things that oppress people, then you need to actually 508 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: figure out what that's going to look like for you. 509 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: If the only thing you can think of is, oh, 510 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: I got to take money from like these horrible brands, 511 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: then like maybe this isn't the thing that you should 512 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: be going for. The reality is I knew that I 513 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: couldn't do that, and so I diversified and I you know, 514 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: started doing Patreon long before the lockdown, which served me well. 515 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to write books, I wanted to do a 516 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: lot of different things, but I did not ever want 517 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: to take money to say on my grid that like 518 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: some big box brand was not oppressing people when I 519 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: know the majority of them are. 520 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 2: More after a quick break. Let's get right back into it. 521 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 3: You have pledged that you will never take a dime 522 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 3: from Fast Fashion? How did that pledge come to be? 523 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: So I pledged that I would never sponsor my grid 524 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: with Fast Fashion to be honest, like, I would love 525 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: to get in a room with some of these CEOs 526 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: and have them pay me to just yell at them, 527 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: like find them style like better, oh my god, oh 528 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: my hit him, Oh my goodness. That would be like 529 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: the dream to like take their money to like not 530 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: just yell at them, but also like hold them to 531 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: account and get paid to do it. I would love 532 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: to do that. So, you know, in the beginning, I 533 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: was like, I'll never take a dollar from Fast Fashion, 534 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: but I will never ever sit on my platform and say, well, 535 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 1: actually they're not too bad to try and everyone they 536 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: used like organic cutt and one T shirt last year. 537 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,479 Speaker 1: Because that's basically what's happening now. If I were to 538 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: be in a position where I'm paid to like hold 539 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: these brands to account or drag them publicly, like I 540 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: was thinking about what that would look like recently, I 541 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: was like, how do I get to a point where 542 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: like I'm using this platform to really like get in 543 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: CEO's heads. But yeah, I basically when I started talking 544 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: about sustainability, I had just moved to the UK and 545 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: me and my partner had gotten married and had to 546 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: do the visa process and my god, we were broke, 547 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: and so I had this platform, and my partner was like, hey, 548 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: you need to start making some money because now you 549 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: have your working papers. And I was like, I know, 550 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: but I can't, and he was just like, well do something, 551 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: and so like we went back and forth because like 552 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: at some point in time I was gonna have to 553 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: like start working. And I basically loved writing every day 554 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: about sustainability, and I found that there wasn't a there 555 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: was a real lack of actual honest information about sustainability 556 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: on Instagram at the time, and people really wanted that. 557 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: People were seeking that. They wanted someone who would say, 558 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: like this brand song and here's why. And I couldn't 559 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: do that and then also be like, by the way, 560 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: today's add is sponsor Bizara, you know what I mean. 561 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: So I sort of like talk to my community that 562 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: was slowly building, and I said, look, I love sharing 563 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: information with you all, but like I got to get 564 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: paid somehow, but I don't want to do it that way. 565 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: So I'm going to start a Patreon and if a 566 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: certain amount of you sign up, I will continue Monday 567 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: through Friday to post here. I will keep the ads 568 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: to a minimum. If I ever work with a sponsor, 569 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: you better believe that they're going to be ethical and bcore. 570 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: To this day, the only sponsors that I've had on 571 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: my grid have been like, you know, resell sites like eBay, 572 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: festi Air Collective, which is very very like that. That 573 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: is like the perfect partnership for me because that's how 574 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: I buy the majority of my clothing, and I love 575 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: helping people to like realize that like, actually you don't 576 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: have to buy anything new because this entire system runs 577 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: off of overproduction. Which means that if there's something you want, 578 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: it'll pop up on resale eventually. There have been like 579 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: very few things that I have never seen I've that 580 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: has caught my eye in a store that hasn't popped 581 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: up on eBay or vest stair collective. 582 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: Very few. 583 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: And so I basically told my readership, I really really 584 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: really want to keep this space ad free, because we 585 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: know what advertising looks like in this space. And people 586 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: were actually really jazzed about that, and it was great 587 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: because it was twenty eighteen and by twenty twenty, starting 588 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: a newsletter, which is something I do, or starting a 589 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: Patreon or starting a substack was like it was like 590 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 1: the Great Migration of like, you know, if you joined 591 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: at that point, you were like a trout swimming upstream 592 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,240 Speaker 1: with everyone else. But I felt like I had already 593 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: sort of cemented myself there because I was like, I 594 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: can't do this. I don't want to sell you stuff, 595 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: and you know, I don't want to. I don't ever 596 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: want to have to worry about paying a light bill 597 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: and then saying something that isn't true and I know 598 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: probably isn't that or not even like you know, having 599 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: to look the other way in order to like really 600 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: take the money, and sometimes it is hard. Like recently 601 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: I did a panel and I found out the day 602 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: before that one of the brands on the panel had 603 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: been like caught up and like something where they hadn't 604 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: been using a good factory basically, and that was very awkward. 605 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: Sometimes things like that are really unavoidable. But I try 606 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: my darndess to not be in those situations because I 607 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: don't know. I want to like like who I am 608 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: when I look in the mirror, and I know that 609 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: if I had financed my life through taking money from 610 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: people that were oppressing women of color, I wouldn't like that. 611 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: And I think it's time for everyone to sort of 612 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: view a lot of these companies is that way. And 613 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: if we can actually start to get to a point 614 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: where we're actually towing a party line as content creators, together, 615 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: we can actually transform these industries because a lot of 616 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: these brands need us. But the problem is people are 617 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: so thirsty that they're just like, i'll take a dollar 618 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: from anyone. I'll do it for one hundred dollars, and 619 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: it's like no, if we actually like organize for ourselves, 620 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: not only could we get these brands paying better fair 621 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,479 Speaker 1: rates for like the advertisement, because they get so much 622 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: from influencers. They really do. But we could also tow 623 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: the party line and be like, guess what if you're 624 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: not paying your garment workers, you don't get to work 625 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: with any influencers. That would be the power of organizing 626 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: in the space, But unfortunately it's not going to happen 627 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: until people realize that our liberation is intrinsically tied to 628 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: the person the global South who is bearing the brunt 629 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: of the system. And that's the problem. We think that 630 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: like we're we think we're disconnected from it, but like, no, 631 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: a company that exploits that person over there is more 632 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: than happy to exploit you. 633 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 3: All of that sounds pretty bleak, but it doesn't have 634 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 3: to be. Creating a better relationship with consuming and what 635 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 3: and how we buy can actually be transformative. It can 636 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 3: change our relationship to our space, our bodies, the way 637 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 3: we feel about ourselves. It can be an opportunity, not 638 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 3: a punishment. This all sounds very doom and gloomy, but 639 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 3: I will say the experience of reading your book was 640 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 3: there's a there's a bright side to it, I guess, 641 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 3: is what I'm saying. Like everything that you just said 642 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 3: is correct and scary and seems really big. But the 643 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 3: reality is is that we can make small changes, like 644 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 3: we don't have to wait for corporations. 645 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,760 Speaker 2: To be better. 646 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 3: We don't have to like we can make small changes 647 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 3: like in the pandemic. I've talked about this on the show. 648 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 3: I got a little bit like a dick did to 649 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 3: buying cheap crap I didn't need just for like a boost, 650 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 3: because I was feeling a lot of people did yeah, 651 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 3: and I had to take a step back and be 652 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 3: like what am I doing here? Like the amount of 653 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 3: boxes outside of my apartment was like embarrassing to me. 654 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 3: And when I started really thinking about my consumption habits 655 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 3: and how social media was part of it, and really 656 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 3: undoing and unpacking some of that, it really changed my 657 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 3: relationship to my home because I didn't have my closets 658 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 3: were not filled with the brim with crap. I didn't 659 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 3: need my physical presentation because so much of those clothes 660 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 3: were garbage. Like I found this tied die fucking two 661 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 3: piece sweatsuit that I bought on Amazon, and I was like, 662 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 3: why did I buy this? This looks ridiculous and it 663 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 3: looks ridiculous on me when you when you stop consuming 664 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 3: and then you actually focus on acquiring things that you like, 665 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 3: that feel good, that are that are designed, that are 666 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 3: like made well. I not the company made well, but 667 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 3: made well. 668 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 2: Yeah about that. Like my dad gave me. 669 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 3: This leather jacket that it used to wear in the 670 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 3: seventies that I've now been like oiling and taking very 671 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 3: good care of. And it's like I have a new 672 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 3: sense of pride and love for the things that I 673 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 3: that I really value, and then when I put them 674 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 3: on my body, I feel better. It's really this sounds 675 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 3: hippy tippy and all of that, and it sounds like 676 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 3: it sounds, but it really has been transformative. 677 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 1: You're completely right about that. The truth in the matter 678 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: is I think we view like slowing down our consumption 679 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: cycles is like, oh, it's gonna be so boring and 680 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna hate it and it's gonna be terrible. And 681 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 1: I can say my wardrobe is four hundred percent better 682 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: than it was when I was buying fast fashion because 683 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 1: I really think about the things I bring into my closet. 684 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: Not only do I think about it, but getting away 685 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: from fast fashion forces you to actually figure out your style, 686 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: your personal style because we all think that we're being 687 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: freed by fast fashion, but if anything, you're just getting 688 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: a ton of trends pushed at you. You think you 689 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: have free will in this, but in actuality, the things 690 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: that are being sold to you have been picked out 691 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: for you by experts months in advance. So you're like, ooh, 692 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: look at me with this, Like my styles really developed, 693 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 1: but really you look like a lot of other people 694 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: in the global North who shopped at the same store. 695 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: And so you know, when you start to really not 696 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: want to engage with this stuff anymore, you find that 697 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: you really start to actually find what your style is. 698 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: You start investing in things you know, because you're not 699 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: shopping every month anymore. So, like I used to say, 700 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,399 Speaker 1: I was that person in my twenties that would be like, well, 701 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,399 Speaker 1: I do like that brand's great if you can afford it, 702 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: And like, there were time periods where I was not 703 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: making a lot of money and I was moving in 704 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: and out of my parents basement. I would argue that 705 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: was probably buying a lot of fast fashion to like 706 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: soothe those feelings of an adequacy that I had. Right, 707 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: so I'm looking at like an ethical brand and sizing 708 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: it up and talking about how I can't really afford 709 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 1: that thing, but I'm literally handing two hundred dollars a 710 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,320 Speaker 1: month to like fast fashion companies and not even realizing 711 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: I'm doing it literally, you know, and just not even 712 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: quantifying what I'm doing. And then it turns out that like, actually, 713 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: maybe I could have afforded that very nice dress. I 714 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 1: just didn't need to buy five dresses from H and 715 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,239 Speaker 1: M last summer. Funny that, you know. And so when 716 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: you really stop to like, you know, be present, but 717 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: also just like get off of this trend cycle, you 718 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: find yourself really leaning into like the core and the 719 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 1: essence of what it is that you love, and then 720 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: you know your your style doesn't change with you know, 721 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 1: you'll obviously there'll be sometimes where you'll experiment with this 722 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: and that, but like the core of what your style is, 723 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: in the essence of what your style is isn't going 724 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: to change as fast as the system of micro trends. 725 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 1: So like for me, if I find a dress that 726 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 1: I love on eBay, I'm still gonna love it three 727 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: years from now because I love it, Which is why 728 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: it's great because now I shop that way, you know, 729 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: and I always, I always have used eBay for buying clothes. 730 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: I just didn't share it with my peers because it 731 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,399 Speaker 1: wasn't very cool until recently. But now I find that, 732 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: like there are brands I love to go back and 733 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,720 Speaker 1: buy things that I didn't have money for like years ago, 734 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: but like maybe like a luxury item that like I 735 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: really really love but could never afford, and then I 736 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: go and find it on eBay and it's like, you know, 737 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 1: seventy percent off of like the retail price, you know 738 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 1: what I mean. So once you start to really like 739 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: dive into your style and get away from trends, it 740 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: cannot only be super fulfilling, but you're gonna find that, 741 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,320 Speaker 1: like you have a wardrobe that brings you so much joy, 742 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: and when you have that, you're not chasing the trends anyways. 743 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: But additionally, I always say that fast fashion is kind 744 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: of a bit like sugar. So in the US, we 745 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: put sugar in everything, like everything, and I live in 746 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: the UK now and they do not put sugar in everything, 747 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 1: and it is very noticeable when you first get here. 748 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: I crave sugar, like I'm a sugar fien and it's 749 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: the last thing for me that I need to like 750 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: tap down on Like I barely drink. I have a 751 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: mostly vegetarian diet, but sugar is my vice. So when 752 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: I get to the UK, I'm always like craving the sugar, like, oh, 753 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,439 Speaker 1: give it to me, And then after like a few 754 00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: weeks sort of like tampers off. And then when I 755 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: go back to the States, I might go out to 756 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: like a restaurant that I really rate and get like 757 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,919 Speaker 1: a dessert that I used to love, and when I'm 758 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: eating it, I'm like, was this so sweet? You know, 759 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: like you can really tell when you've been away from it. 760 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: And fast fashion is the same, except I find myself 761 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,319 Speaker 1: saying was this always so crap? You know? Like when 762 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 1: I first took time and basically said, like moving to 763 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: the UK really helped me because I had no money 764 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: and I had also had to like really lighten my possession, 765 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 1: so I wasn't in a massive rush to like go 766 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: and acquire new things, and so I really took some time. 767 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 1: From all the stores, I unsubscribed, from all the email lists, 768 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,319 Speaker 1: no apps, YadA, YadA, YadA, and I would say the 769 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 1: next time I went into an H and M, after 770 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: taking like six months to just really clear my head 771 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: and start to get away from fast fashion. All I 772 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: could think about was how everything was plastic and the 773 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 1: stores they smell weird. They smell they smell weird, and 774 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: that's because there are a bunch of things that they 775 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: spray the clothing with and transit to keep it from wrinkling. 776 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 1: So you start to notice things like that when you 777 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,799 Speaker 1: take time away with slow fashion, the quality I just 778 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 1: it's incomparable. I do some like personal shopping and personal 779 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: styling virtually through my Patreon, And one of the things 780 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,239 Speaker 1: that I always I never get sick of is the 781 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: person who gets their first like slow fashion purchase and 782 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: they're just like the quality they just can't keep. They 783 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: just they're like, this is unbelievable because we really haven't noticed, 784 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: like while being in the fast fashion cycle that things 785 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,399 Speaker 1: have gotten pretty bad. But then when you compare it 786 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: to something that's a lot better quality, you're like, oh, 787 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: we just think that like it's going to be terrible 788 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 1: because consumerism has trained us to believe that, like, this 789 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: is how we participate in society. This is how you 790 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: show the world your personal style. This is how you 791 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: this is the hobby you do in your downtime, This 792 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 1: is how you reward yourself when you're feeling bad. This 793 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 1: is what you do when you need a new outfit 794 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: for a job interview, which you absolutely don't need a 795 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,919 Speaker 1: new outfit for a job interview. That person's never met 796 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 1: you before, they will not know if it's an old outfit, 797 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: you know. So, like we trick ourselves into thinking that 798 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,359 Speaker 1: consumerism is like our best friend, but in actuality, it's 799 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: killing the planet and thus killing us, and we need 800 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: to think about it differently. 801 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 3: Basically, when you think about what's on the horizon, it 802 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 3: does seem like people are kind of catching up, you know. 803 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 3: Secondhand clothing is kind of having a moment. 804 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:00,920 Speaker 2: Is having a moment. 805 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 3: People are having conversations about consumption. Are you Are you 806 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 3: hopeful that we will sort of get ourselves out of this? 807 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:09,280 Speaker 2: Do you see that happening? 808 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: M well, I am hopeful, but you know, not to 809 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 1: get depressing. But like all this is going to come 810 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: to a screeching hole because mother Nature is about to 811 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: like clamp down on us really hard. So what you 812 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,359 Speaker 1: need to understand with these systems is we're all over 813 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: consuming the consumer. The brands are obviously overproducing, pushing us 814 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: to over consume. If we don't change this ship around, 815 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 1: we won't have the raw materials for a lot of 816 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,400 Speaker 1: these brands to keep going. But we can't keep going 817 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,200 Speaker 1: like this forever. All of these systems right are playing 818 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: such a crucial part on the natural resources that our 819 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 1: lovely planet provides for us for free, and these brands 820 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,399 Speaker 1: are taking way more than their fair share. I'm kind 821 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 1: of hopeful though, that people start to see these systems 822 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,800 Speaker 1: for what it is before it comes to that, because, 823 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 1: like I said, this is sort of like the last Huran. 824 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: It seems like the fashion industry just thinks that it's 825 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,879 Speaker 1: just going to ride the car until the wheels fall off. 826 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 1: But if the wheels fall off, things are going to 827 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 1: look really, really bad. So people think that like, ethical 828 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: fashion is expensive, now, you just wait until Conon cost 829 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,439 Speaker 1: one hundred dollars a yard, you know what I mean. 830 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: But if we keep depending on this system of overproduction 831 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,480 Speaker 1: and overconsumption somewhat pushed by influencers like by all means 832 00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: the companies are totally at fault. The billionaires are at fault. 833 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,839 Speaker 1: But the person who has a platform who thinks none 834 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: of this has anything to do with them, And I'm 835 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: just trying to get a paycheck. You're at fault too, 836 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 1: because if you have like the same following count as 837 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: me on Instagram and you're selling people something daily, you 838 00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: are selling thousands of product a year, hundreds and thousand 839 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: and products a year, and probably getting a really nice 840 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,239 Speaker 1: affiliate linking check, so you're also like richer than everyone else, 841 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,440 Speaker 1: but then also going, oh, well, I can't afford to change. 842 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,839 Speaker 1: This is how I make a living. No, maybe it 843 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,120 Speaker 1: is you that needs to change because this system won't 844 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: go on forever. And then like then what we now 845 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,280 Speaker 1: have a system where like people truly can't afford clothing. 846 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: I don't want to live like that. So I really 847 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:29,480 Speaker 1: hope that people wake up and realize that, like, these 848 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:34,920 Speaker 1: corporations are harming our planet, and these systems of consumption 849 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 1: are hurting and harming us. And I don't think that 850 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: this is an impossible thing for us to do. I 851 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,600 Speaker 1: think we really need to be honest with ourselves and 852 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: look at where we are in this system, and look 853 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: at who we are in this system. You know, if 854 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 1: you're the person who really really just needs that pair 855 00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: of work trousers from Primemark, I am never going to 856 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,239 Speaker 1: show up and like slap your wallet out of your 857 00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,000 Speaker 1: hand because I'm not a bad person. But that's not 858 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,839 Speaker 1: how Primark turns loads and loads of profit. They turn 859 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,399 Speaker 1: loads and loads of profit by people going on holes there, 860 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,880 Speaker 1: you know. So like realizing who you are in this 861 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,759 Speaker 1: system and what you can like afford to do honestly, 862 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,240 Speaker 1: it's going to be a crucial part. And like asking yourself, 863 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,319 Speaker 1: do I even want to participate this way? Because I 864 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,160 Speaker 1: remember when I was buying fast fashion feeling really like, 865 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:37,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, a bit sort of like push to 866 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,960 Speaker 1: do it in a way where I wasn't comfortable, like 867 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,880 Speaker 1: taking out my summer clothing from the year before and 868 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,280 Speaker 1: then being like, oh, all these stresses are really nice, 869 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,719 Speaker 1: they're still good. I don't know why I feel compelled 870 00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,719 Speaker 1: to buy new dresses. So ask yourself, do you even 871 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,000 Speaker 1: like being in this system? And if you don't, like, 872 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 1: what are you going to do differently? But rest assure 873 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,879 Speaker 1: when people say that, like, oh, it's not on the individual, 874 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,319 Speaker 1: it's on the corporation. The corporation does require you. It 875 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,280 Speaker 1: requires a lot of us buying into it, It requires 876 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 1: people over consuming. And if you don't think corporations don't 877 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 1: feel threatened by like sustainability in many ways they do. 878 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: There's a reason why, like every trash bag company is 879 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: now sort of starting to do like secondhand resale because 880 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: they see that us as citizens are actually caring about 881 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,080 Speaker 1: this stuff and they want a piece of the pie. 882 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,720 Speaker 1: So we get to say that, oh, we care about 883 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,880 Speaker 1: sustainability and also like we can profit twice from like 884 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:43,040 Speaker 1: the same crap, except some of that stuff doesn't hold 885 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,239 Speaker 1: up long enough for it to have two owners, but 886 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: that's another story. I do think that corporations realize that, 887 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,920 Speaker 1: like the writing is on the wall, and the more 888 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,719 Speaker 1: we become informed citizens and the more we start to 889 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,799 Speaker 1: really take action and change how we into how we 890 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: interact with this system, the more we can actually change 891 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:04,600 Speaker 1: the system for the better. 892 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 3: Okay, so what did you think of that she and 893 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,360 Speaker 3: brand trip and what are your thoughts on fast fashion 894 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,360 Speaker 3: retailers like Shian. You can let me know on email 895 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 3: at hello at tangodi dot com, on my Instagram at 896 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 3: bridget ran DC, on Twitter at bridget money, or you 897 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,560 Speaker 3: can always subscribe to our Patreon at patreon dot com 898 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,279 Speaker 3: slash tangoty because I kind of can't stop talking about 899 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 3: it and I would love to hear your thoughts, got 900 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 3: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just 901 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 3: want to say hi. You can read us at Hello 902 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,120 Speaker 3: at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts for 903 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,880 Speaker 3: today's episode at tengodi dot com. There Are No Girls 904 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 3: on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's 905 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 3: a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland is 906 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 3: our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. 907 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,640 Speaker 3: Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. 908 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,440 Speaker 3: If you want to help us grow, rate and review. 909 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 2: Us on Apple Podcasts. 910 00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,959 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 911 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.