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Speaker 1: Because it's a place you go where you can get

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Speaker 1: some really nice clothes without the really expensive prices. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things I've been going through is I've

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Speaker 1: transitioned from being mister cot and ty guy to wanting

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Speaker 1: a little more casual but to look nice doing it.

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Speaker 1: Guess he's got amazing amounts of quarter zips. It is Quints.

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Speaker 1: I have gotten quite a few already from there. The

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Speaker 1: I just know, hey, cashmere, that's pretty good. You don't

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Speaker 1: normally get that for fifty bucks or less. Italian wool

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Speaker 1: coats that look and feel like designer the stuff. I'll

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Speaker 1: be honest, right, you look at it online, you think, okay,

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Speaker 1: is this really as nice as it looks? Well, when

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Speaker 1: I got it, I was like, oh, this is real quality.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm going to end up making sure I

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Speaker 1: take it to my dry cleaner so I don't screw

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Speaker 1: that code. Hello there, Happy Monday, and welcome to another

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Speaker 1: episode of the Chuck Podcast. We are ticking ever so

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Speaker 1: closer to the holiday break first night of Hanukkah, ten

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Speaker 1: days to Christmas, the New sixteen days to New Year's Eve,

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Speaker 1: and of course when I'm counting down five days until

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Speaker 1: the University of Miami's debut in the college football Playoff,

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Speaker 1: I've got a pretty good I've got a pretty sort

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Speaker 1: of robust show today that's going to hit a bunch

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Speaker 1: of topics. A fascinating and an incredibly important study by

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Speaker 1: some from some folks from the Council on Foreign Affairs

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Speaker 1: about the state of the United States and its democracy.

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Speaker 1: It's extraordinarily important read. I'm going to pass on the

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Speaker 1: highlights in a minute. Fascinating new poll from the Searchlight

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Speaker 1: Institute on corruption and more and portantly, it's not about

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Speaker 1: the concern about political corruption. It's about what voters believe

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Speaker 1: is corrupt versus sometimes what lawmakers view as corrupt. Here's

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Speaker 1: a hint it let's just say that they don't share

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Speaker 1: the same definition of what is political corruption these days.

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Speaker 1: The interview today is with Nick Troyana. He is a

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Speaker 1: founder and runs an organization called Unit America. They've been

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Speaker 1: He also wrote a book called The Primary Problem, meaning

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Speaker 1: it is the primaries, a partisan primaries that are at

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Speaker 1: his thesis, that are at the root of our polarization,

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Speaker 1: the root of pretty much, probably seventy percent of our problems,

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Speaker 1: particularly our problems and our inability to get things done.

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Speaker 1: We talk about a lot about various small the democratic

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Speaker 1: reforms that could be necessary, would be necessary. He's somebody

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Speaker 1: that tried to run as an independent and saw all

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Speaker 1: of the barriers to entry for third party third parties

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Speaker 1: and independents. And part of the goal I think of

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Speaker 1: United America is just simply to open up the democracy

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Speaker 1: to everybody. Right now, this democracy is not open to everybody.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to competition for political parties or ideas.

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Speaker 1: There is a major barrier to entry. And it's not financial,

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Speaker 1: it is structural, and that is the heart of that conversation.

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Speaker 1: It is Monday, which means we're going to hop into

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Speaker 1: the time machine, and I'm just going to give you

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Speaker 1: one hint at what I'm going to be talking about

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Speaker 1: in the time machine monorail, monorail, monorail. How many of

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Speaker 1: you will figure out what I'm going to talk about

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Speaker 1: based on that hint? Guess what. I won't actually find

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Speaker 1: out the answer to that, but I thought that would

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Speaker 1: be a fun little clue. We'll do some ask Chuck

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Speaker 1: and I have a few thoughts on the state of

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Speaker 1: college athletics, given what happened what we're watching at the

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Speaker 1: University of Michigan. But I'm going to start with the

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Speaker 1: news out of Australia. It's pretty painful first Ia Hanka

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Speaker 1: around the world that this is what all of us

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Speaker 1: had to wake up to on Sunday morning here in

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Speaker 1: the United States and what the world is grappling with,

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Speaker 1: and that is just yet another reminder that anti Semitism

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Speaker 1: is at an ugly level globally right now. Look, this

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Speaker 1: is anti Semitism is not new. We've gone through fits

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Speaker 1: and starts. Anybody who's Jewish knows the history. We know

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Speaker 1: the history of this quite well, the rise and falls

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Speaker 1: of attempts eradicating Jews, blaming Jews for financial problems, blaming

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Speaker 1: Jews for cultural problems. We are the smallest of the

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Speaker 1: major religions. We are the smallest of groups that there are.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing how much power so many people try to

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Speaker 1: attribute to us, and we're not even three percent of

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Speaker 1: the world's population. Obviously, what we've been you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people that are looking at this and

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Speaker 1: immediately trying to make a political argument, to make the

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Speaker 1: case that it's the left that is supercharging antisemitism or

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Speaker 1: the right that is supercharging antisemitism. I will remind you

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Speaker 1: all once again, I have only experienced it in stereo.

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Speaker 1: All right, before twenty fifteen, I experienced very little anti semitism,

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Speaker 1: if any at all. I think I shared a story

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Speaker 1: with you an old friend of mine. We were talking

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Speaker 1: about this one time, and sort of right right when

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Speaker 1: the rise of sort of it was those of us

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Speaker 1: in the press that were starting to feel at first,

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Speaker 1: and then it sort of broke open out into the mainstream.

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Speaker 1: But in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, you can say it

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Speaker 1: was coincidental with the timing of the rise of Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: or if that is what sort of essentially lifted up

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Speaker 1: the pretext on all of this. But essentially the rise

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Speaker 1: of the populace left with Bernie Sanders and the rise

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Speaker 1: of the populist right with Donald Trump has given a

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Speaker 1: permission slip to anti semits to either to either use

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Speaker 1: it to promote a left wing ideology or use it

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Speaker 1: to promote a right wing ideology. Here's what I will say.

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Speaker 1: If you're using anti semitism to try to promote the

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Speaker 1: left or the right, you're obviously doing it wrong and

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Speaker 1: you're not very small d democratic and you certainly don't

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Speaker 1: believe in freedom, that's for sure, freedom of anything, let

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Speaker 1: alone freedom of religion on that front. But I remember

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Speaker 1: talking with this old friend of mine and we were

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Speaker 1: talking about how our mothers would tell us these stories

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Speaker 1: about anti about their butt, their anti Semitic experiences in

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Speaker 1: grade school and high school. My mother's second generation in America.

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Speaker 1: I believe his parents were first generation, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they would tell us these stories, and my friend and

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Speaker 1: I would sit there and go, you know, my mother

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Speaker 1: would tell these stories about you know, kids in her

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Speaker 1: high school looking for her horns or asking about her tale.

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Speaker 1: And you know, he would say that, you know his

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Speaker 1: mother would you share similar things? And we would just

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Speaker 1: look at them like they were strange beings. That's this

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Speaker 1: can't be the case. What do you tell? You know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't dec I didn't want to say I was

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Speaker 1: dismissing mother. But you know, you think, well, maybe our

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Speaker 1: parents are exaggerating a little bit, you know, maybe, And

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you ten years later, All right, eleven years now,

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Speaker 1: we're almost we're getting close to the eleventh year of

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Speaker 1: sort of this what has been a consistent uptick, really

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Speaker 1: really you can. I do believe the line of demarcation

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Speaker 1: is June twenty fifteen. But you can see this uptick

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Speaker 1: and it is this is not something that either side

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Speaker 1: if we're going to try to make this always a

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Speaker 1: two way fight between whose fault is it is that

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Speaker 1: the left is of the right. This is collective and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of blame to

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Speaker 1: go around, but I think the one that's sing singularly

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Speaker 1: singular for blame and most important is social media. In this,

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Speaker 1: we've always had to anti semis. We've always had a

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Speaker 1: hate in the world. Okay, just it's just a fact.

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Speaker 1: We've always had small minded people who have wanted to

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Speaker 1: blame an ethnicity or a religious sect for their for

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Speaker 1: their own personal problems. That's in it, and that is

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Speaker 1: that is not new. Sometimes these sick people end up

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Speaker 1: leaders of countries see Hitler, Comma Adolph. Sometimes these sick

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Speaker 1: leaders end up leaders of political movements. And then there's

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Speaker 1: always this what about is that comes along with with

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Speaker 1: folks that are trying to defend their side from charges

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Speaker 1: of anti Semitism, And it'll be like, yeah, but you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but this disselected leader of Israel's bad about X, Y

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Speaker 1: and Z. That doesn't justify hate on little kids celebrating

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Speaker 1: Hanukah in Australia. There's nothing that justifies that. So I

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Speaker 1: don't want to hear the Abbots and I ignore. And

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you this the beauty of social media and

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Speaker 1: stories like this is it becomes self selecting. You see

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Speaker 1: the people that immediately want to point fingers and say, aha,

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Speaker 1: it's the left, A hats the right, And I'm like, aha,

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Speaker 1: it's somebody that doesn't have a mirror in their own frickin' house.

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Speaker 1: But I want to put the emphasis on the distinguishing

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Speaker 1: characteristic here of this era of anti Semitism, and that

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Speaker 1: is social media.

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Speaker 2: I put my.

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Speaker 1: I want to align myself with some remarks that Spencer Cox,

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Speaker 1: the Governor of Utah, Republican governor of Utah said last week.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't on a specific thing, wasn't specifically about

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Speaker 1: anti Semitism, but it was more about the toxicity, the

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Speaker 1: toxic culture, the increase in violence that we've seen in politics.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting is my friend Jonathan martin Wright wrote

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Speaker 1: in Politico this week. The following comment received the loudest

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Speaker 1: applause he did a joint form with Josh Shapiro on

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Speaker 1: this issue Spencer Cox and Josh Shapiro in conversation with

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Speaker 1: my friend Savannah Guthrie, And the loudest applause at the

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Speaker 1: form was when he said the following, If you want

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Speaker 1: to be angry at someone, be angry at the social

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Speaker 1: media companies. These are the wealthiest and most powerful companies

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Speaker 1: in the history of the world, and their profiting off

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Speaker 1: of destroying our kids and destroying our country. And the

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Speaker 1: amplification the algorithms, the fact that fellow crazy anti semites

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Speaker 1: can find other fellow crazy anti semites online and think, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm not the only one that thinks this, And the

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Speaker 1: minute you think you're not the only one, that you're

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Speaker 1: not alone. It's somehow rationalized. Is it makes you feel better?

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Speaker 1: It makes you think, oh, and then when you set

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Speaker 1: up an ecosystem and a bubble that sort of is

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Speaker 1: self reinforcing, you think you're the mainstream. Everybody thinks their

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Speaker 1: own media diet is a mainstream diet, right. It is

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Speaker 1: the inability of so many people to put their feet

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Speaker 1: in other people's shoes and other people's media filters. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I think there's been some experiments. I really would like

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Speaker 1: to see people sort of spend a day in a

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Speaker 1: media filter of somebody else, and you do these various

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Speaker 1: media filters just you know, I look at it as

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Speaker 1: an academic exercise to try to understand the electorate. As

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Speaker 1: you guys know, I have been referring to myself as

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Speaker 1: a political anthropologist, meaning that that is constantly what I'm

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Speaker 1: ultimately always trying to figure out is what is why

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Speaker 1: are we in this place? And if you're trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out why, you have to understand the various political

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Speaker 1: tribes in America. Some of these tribes overlap. People are

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Speaker 1: members of multiple tribes, sometimes remember of only one. But

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Speaker 1: ultimately that's why I say I'm a political anthropologist. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out how do these tribes align? Hey,

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Speaker 1: gress what I know, I'm in my own tribe. I

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Speaker 1: just try my best to roll down the window in

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Speaker 1: my bubble and see what's going on outside of my bubble.

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Speaker 1: But you have to It is hard to do it.

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Speaker 1: You have to intentionally do it. You have to have

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Speaker 1: the crazy ass Twitter feed that I have. That I

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Speaker 1: promise you most people at America probably don't because I

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Speaker 1: do try very hard to get the normies and the

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Speaker 1: extremes because I want to understand what the conversation that

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Speaker 1: is going on. Trust me, I'm sure some of you

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Speaker 1: go some of you listening to me wouldn't even know

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Speaker 1: who Candice Owens is. And by the way, God bless you,

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Speaker 1: I'd love not to know who this woman is. But

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Speaker 1: there are people, there's an entire community on the right

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Speaker 1: that is consumed with trying to extricate this crazy woman

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Speaker 1: from the mainstream of the MAGA world because of her

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Speaker 1: just outlandish conspiracy theories. I can't tell if she's mentally

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Speaker 1: ill or just simply a shameless grifter, or perhaps the

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Speaker 1: two of the two go hand in hand. But there

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Speaker 1: are plenty of people in mainstream America. I'm sure if

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Speaker 1: I said the words Candice owned, my mother and my

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Speaker 1: brother in law, my sister in law, who all are

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty smart about this, would be like, who the

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Speaker 1: hell is that? And I wouldn't blame them. But that's

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Speaker 1: because this is the world that we've all constructed. But

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Speaker 1: it's the world that social media has gone out of

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Speaker 1: their way to construct. And this is why, you know,

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Speaker 1: I look at this rise of anti Semitism, and I

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Speaker 1: look the fact that this was not a lone nut right,

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Speaker 1: but there appears to be some coordination down there in Australia.

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Speaker 1: I do I can't, you know, I know that ultimately

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Speaker 1: individuals are to blame, not a computer, not an algorithm,

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Speaker 1: but these tech platfor to amplify, and you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think they have a responsibility to make sure that

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Speaker 1: what they're doing is not putting more people in harm's way,

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Speaker 1: and their amplification, their algorithms, are doing just that, they

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Speaker 1: deserve no protection on Section two thirty, the part of

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Speaker 1: the law that supposedly says, hey, we're just you know,

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Speaker 1: we're not doing the minute they put an algorithm on

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Speaker 1: these things, the minute they amplify, the minute they allow

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Speaker 1: for the connection. Look, our First Amendment guarantees free speech.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't guarantee if bullhorn, It doesn't guarantee a right

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Speaker 1: to be the loudest voice in the room. It just

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Speaker 1: simply guarantees that you have a right to free speech.

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Speaker 1: So you have a right to be a hateful anti

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Speaker 1: semi okay, but you don't have the right to have

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Speaker 1: your extreme, hateful and hurtful political views be the dominant

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Speaker 1: piece of conversation and be mainstreamed in to America. No, because,

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Speaker 1: by the way, we don't want it mainstream, and the

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Speaker 1: tech companies do not have to protect you and do

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Speaker 1: not have to amplify your speech. In fact, they can

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Speaker 1: dial it down. In fact, there's plenty of academic studies

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Speaker 1: that show if you dial down hateful content, you're not

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Speaker 1: getting rid of it, you're just prioritizing it less than

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Speaker 1: these algorithms. It's shocking how much turning that temperature down

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Speaker 1: actually helps the conversation. So it's troubling, but I really,

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Speaker 1: you know, you look at the situation we're in, and

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Speaker 1: there's no doubt we have bad leaders around the world

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Speaker 1: that are exploiting hate and anger to try to make

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Speaker 1: a political argument. You have people on both sides of

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Speaker 1: the aisle attempting to weaponize anger at Israel or anger

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Speaker 1: at the economy and trying to somehow connect that to

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Speaker 1: Jewish folks. The left does it with bb at times.

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Speaker 1: The right does it with George Soros. I mean George Soros.

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Speaker 1: There is no greater victim, there's no greater victim of

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Speaker 1: anti Semitic mythology, uh and gross mischaracterizations than George Soros.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know where he gets to go to

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Speaker 1: get his reputation back considering the character assassinations that have

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Speaker 1: taken place through the prism of his faith. There's there's

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Speaker 1: no no, no doubt in my mind on that front.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately, why do we have more collective conversation about this?

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Speaker 1: Why is there more collective talk about this? Why is there,

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Speaker 1: frankly more insecurity for many Jewish Jewish people around the world.

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Speaker 1: Why do we feel so less secure today than we

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Speaker 1: ever have before. I think we can thank social media.

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Speaker 1: I think the tech companies have not only not gotten

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Speaker 1: the focus of this, they've not taken responsibility, but I

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Speaker 1: think they need They need to be the focal point.

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Speaker 1: Which brings me to that column that my friend Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Martin wrote, which he says, you know, perhaps Spencer Cox

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Speaker 1: needs to be the anti tech candidate. Somebody needs to

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Speaker 1: take it to the tech community. Right, the tech community

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Speaker 1: has brought us a lot of positives. Okay, there's a

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Speaker 1: ton of positives, and there's a ton of tools that

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Speaker 1: have been invented that have helped me create a better

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Speaker 1: communications system with you guys. Right, There's no doubt there's

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Speaker 1: plenty of upsides from the tech community, but what they

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Speaker 1: have done with social media, And this is why I

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Speaker 1: don't think the public is going to be supportive at

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Speaker 1: all of this light touch, non regulatory process that the

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Speaker 1: President's trying to do an artificial intelligence. The same industry,

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Speaker 1: the same industry that gave us social media without regulation,

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Speaker 1: now wants to give us artificial intelligence without regulation. Considering

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Speaker 1: how well social media went, how the hell are we

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Speaker 1: doing this right? This is the most illogical thing you

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Speaker 1: could come up with. I can't believe the President is

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Speaker 1: doing this. I think this is you want to talk

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Speaker 1: about convincing more mainstream Americans to go get a pitch

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Speaker 1: for it and start sharpening up, sharpening that sucker up.

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Speaker 1: It is just crazy that we don't want to put

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Speaker 1: any guardrails on the growth and expansion of the AI industry.

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Speaker 1: It is absolute insanity. Okay, if you think social media

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Speaker 1: created more toxicity in our culture and more violence in

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Speaker 1: our culture thanks to the lack of regulation, what do

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Speaker 1: you think is going to happen with artificial intelligence if

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Speaker 1: we don't have some attempt at making sure there are

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Speaker 1: constant guardrails being erected as we build this super highway.

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Speaker 1: It is something that I think I've talked about this before.

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Speaker 1: I think it is politically absolutely going to be frankly

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Speaker 1: an easy thing to exploit potentially. And you know, that's

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Speaker 1: why the tech community is really making a mistake here

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Speaker 1: that they are not grasping just in what kind of

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Speaker 1: precarious position that they're in. And maybe they think we

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Speaker 1: don't need America and if America shuts us down, we'll

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Speaker 1: just go somewhere else where we will be treated with

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Speaker 1: lot we can just buy our way into a policy

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Speaker 1: that we want. And obviously, right now we have a

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Speaker 1: situation where they can get whatever the hell they want

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Speaker 1: from this administration if they just write a check. And

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Speaker 1: that's disturbing, but that's why we still have a competitive democracy,

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Speaker 1: although I'm going to get to that in a minute,

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Speaker 1: where the voters can sort of have a say in this,

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Speaker 1: because right now we have zero say in what social

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Speaker 1: media has done to us, and we don't seem to

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Speaker 1: have the collective will. It's growing. I mean, look, I

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Speaker 1: think it's a huge start that you've got. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: Australia is trying to ban social media for people under

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Speaker 1: the age of sixteen. Spencer Cock made Cox made this

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Speaker 1: mention that we wait to hand the keys to a

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Speaker 1: car to a kid until sixteen, Yet we give them

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Speaker 1: an algorithmic driven phone at twelve. You know, perhaps we

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Speaker 1: can give them a phone at twelve with no social

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Speaker 1: media on it. Right, maybe it's flip phones from twelve

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Speaker 1: to sixteen, because plenty of parents want to have some

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Speaker 1: access to their kids and all that. I think that

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Speaker 1: that's a legitimate concern. But you know, we can essentially say,

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Speaker 1: you know, no, just you can't have a you know,

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Speaker 1: because I don't know how else you're going to be

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Speaker 1: able to monitor this. But if you actually just make

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Speaker 1: the device itself against the law for somebody under the

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Speaker 1: age of sixteen to have, that might be a start.

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Speaker 1: It is the one area where we're starting to see

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Speaker 1: some bipartisan consensus, which is about access to screens and

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Speaker 1: social media for people under sixteen. And we've decided this

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Speaker 1: is a problem. Well, guess what do you think that

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Speaker 1: our minds are only fragile from sixteen and younger, or

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Speaker 1: that we've got these fragile minds that are much older too,

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Speaker 1: and that social media warps those warps those over the

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Speaker 1: age of sixteen almost as badly as they could warp

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Speaker 1: those under the age of twelve. One other point on

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Speaker 1: the social media front, Jonathan mentioned an interesting new report

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Speaker 1: that noted about. It was a poll about the mano sphere,

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Speaker 1: if you will, what do men want? And it revealed

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Speaker 1: that a majority of males sampled in that survey said

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Speaker 1: social media feeds have gotten a lot more extreme. I mean,

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Speaker 1: most of this is thanks to Elon Musk and his

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Speaker 1: insanity and what he's done to Ax and taking away

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Speaker 1: all guardrails on acts, and of course every other social

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Speaker 1: media company followed because they didn't want to get left behind.

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Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that men themselves revealed in this

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Speaker 1: poll that most controversial content reaches the men who are

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Speaker 1: online the most, especially younger men, white men, black men,

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Speaker 1: Hispanic men across the board. And we're seeing a more

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Speaker 1: radical youth thanks to warped social media algorithms. So when

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Speaker 1: we see this rise of hate, we see this rise

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Speaker 1: of violence, and we're looking, you know, the easy thing

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Speaker 1: is to try to point left, point right, point at Israel,

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Speaker 1: point Gaza, point a Hamas, point of protesters. People want

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Speaker 1: to point it. A whole bunch of figures, except for

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Speaker 1: the culprit that is in charge of the information ecosystem

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Speaker 1: that destroyed the information ecosystem. And trust me, I'm aware

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Speaker 1: of the irony that I am speaking to you in

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Speaker 1: that ecosystem, and hopefully it gets to you it doesn't

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Speaker 1: get shut down by the algorithms of these big tech companies.

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Speaker 1: But they're the culprits here. They've created this environment that

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Speaker 1: has made it a lot easier for these hateful, awful,

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Speaker 1: mentally ill people to find comfort in their bubbles because

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Speaker 1: it looks like they're not alone and that they're somehow namestream.

393
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Speaker 1: Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from

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Speaker 1: personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in

396
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Speaker 1: the best shape. My mother, single mother, now widow. Myself

397
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Speaker 1: sixteen trying to figure out how am I going to

398
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Speaker 1: pay for college and lo and behold, my dad had

399
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Speaker 1: one life insurance policy that we found. It wasn't a lot,

400
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Speaker 1: but it was important at the time, and it's why

401
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Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he

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Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well,

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Speaker 1: guess what. That's why I am here to tell you

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Speaker 1: about Etho's life. They can provide you with peace of

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Speaker 1: mind knowing your family is protected even if the worst

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Speaker 1: comes to pass. Ethos is an online platform that makes

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Speaker 1: getting life insurance fast and easy, all designed to protect

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Speaker 1: can get a quote in as little as ten minutes,

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Speaker 1: and you can get same day coverage without ever leaving

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Speaker 1: your home. You can get up to three million dollars

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Speaker 1: in coverage, and some policies start as low as two

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Speaker 1: dollars a day that would be billed monthly. As of

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Speaker 1: March twenty twenty five, Business Insider named Ethos the number

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Speaker 1: one no medical exam instant life insurance provider. So protect

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Speaker 1: ethos dot com slash chuck. Application times may vary and

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Speaker 1: the rates themselves may vary as well, but trust me,

422
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Speaker 1: life insurance is something you should really think about, especially

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Speaker 1: if you've got a growing family. I want to pivot

424
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Speaker 1: quickly to my Newsphere interview this week because some alarming

425
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: new facts that I had not seen anywhere else from

426
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Speaker 1: Mark Warner. He's the vice chair of the Senate Intel Committee.

427
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Speaker 1: Mark Warner has seen the second He has seen the

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Speaker 1: video of both the September second second strike on those

429
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Speaker 1: survivors from the first strike of the boats off the

430
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: coast of Venezuela, and he revealed two facts that I

431
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: had not seen anywhere. Fact number one is that the

432
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: time that elapsed between the first strike and the second

433
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: strike was somewhere between thirty and forty minutes because of

434
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: cloud cover, so thirty to forty minutes, and then the

435
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: clouds come up, and then apparently what is revealed, according

436
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: to Senator Warner, was not fully clothed survivors clinging to

437
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: their life, and then the second strike. Let's just say

438
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: this is what look He believes that if Americans see

439
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: this video, they will be appalled. There will be and

440
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: there's a reason why the Pentagon is fighting the release

441
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: of this video. There is no defense. There apparently is

442
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: going to be no defense of what this video looks like.

443
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 1: This is appalling, and there are probably going to be

444
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: concerns that there are people that might have legal jeopardy here.

445
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: But realistically, I don't know where you get the legal

446
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: jeopardy when the president will likely just pardon anybody that

447
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: is investigated. But there's a reason people are fighting very

448
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: hard not to release this second video because if what

449
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: is what Warner described to me a delayed thirty to

450
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: forty minutes and they were not fully clothed, Essentially, just

451
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: put yourself for the situation. Your boat explode, You're alive,

452
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: you're swimming, You're clinging to the remnants of a boat

453
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: in order to stay afloat not drown. Half your clothes

454
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: are gone, been blown off. Maybe you're just sort of

455
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: trying to use it, and we decide to use the

456
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: second shot. No wonder there are questions why the phrase

457
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: war crime is being tossed around although we're not at war,

458
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: because you know, as many a person has pointed out,

459
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: the question is whether there is not whether this second

460
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: strike was legal, but we still have real doubts about

461
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: whether the first strike is legal. And it is worth

462
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: noting that earlier this week, earlier last week, Trump offered

463
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: a veiled threat at Colombia because the president of Colombia

464
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: has been critical of this, saying that he might not

465
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: be out of the crosshairs. And then the President has

466
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: said that they might target some of these folks on land.

467
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: Whose land is it? Venezuela is a Colombia. Where's this headed?

468
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: And again there is no Senator Warner could not give

469
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: me the authority that that he could not explain very

470
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: well the authority that the White House was using that

471
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: they claimed these strikes were legal. I mean, they've cited

472
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: an authority. It's not the for if you're wondering what

473
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: Senator Warner said, it is not the am au m

474
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: F that was passed by Congress that that allowed for

475
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: the invasion of Iraq, but and which has been used,

476
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: which was used by Obama as justification for strikes, and

477
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,719
Speaker 1: I believe Yemen and some other places. So that is

478
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: not there. So we still don't have a clear picture

479
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: of the legal authority the White House is claiming to

480
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: go after these folks. But he has threatened land strikes

481
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: without asking for any authority from Congress and additional authority

482
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: from Congress, nor has he made his case to the

483
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: American public. And by the way, the decision to essentially

484
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: commandeer an oil tanker rather than just blow it up,

485
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: although blowing up an oil tanker would have been catastrophic,

486
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: essentially starting a fire on the Pacific Ocean potentially or

487
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: the Caribbean Sea, depending on where they were hitting this tanker.

488
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: But if we can board a tanker, we could have

489
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: boarded these boats. And I think the decision not to

490
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: attack that tanker and simply to just commandeer it under

491
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: totally undermines the rationale and justification of the strikes themselves.

492
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: Why there is no good explanation for why we're not

493
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: just essentially stopping these boats, grabbing these people and getting

494
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: some intelligence so that we can actually learn something. And

495
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: I want to just keep one thing in mind here,

496
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: just one more thing in mind, which is the president's

497
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: political standing is not great. He has had a terrible month.

498
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: He had a terrible Friday, excuse me, Thursday last week

499
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: when his retribution campaign. You know, basically he's the Emperor

500
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: with no clothes as far as Indiana Republicans are concerned.

501
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: Grand Juries in Virginia are not. Might might want to

502
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: indict at Ham Sandwich, but they won't indict Leticia James

503
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: when he's not feeling, when he feels as if things

504
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: are going bad, that's just when he might do crazier

505
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: stuff and might attempt crazier stuff to either change the

506
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: subject or change the picture. One more thing before I

507
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: get to an important essay that I think you guys

508
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: have to make note of the president. It is notable

509
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: to me that the President did an interview with the

510
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal over the weekend, and the most fascinating

511
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: aspect of it was his tone change. He essentially is

512
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: admitting that he's going to lose the mid terms. He said,

513
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,239
Speaker 1: you know, he basically said, we're going to try our

514
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: best to win. We'll see what happens. We should win,

515
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: but you know, statistically it's very tough to win. Yeah,

516
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: I know, it doesn't make So it's the beginning of

517
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: the excuse making. It's the beginning of the his way

518
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: of admitting this economy, that the public doesn't like this economy.

519
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: This was the interview saying, Oh, it's going to take time,

520
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: my investments haven't gone through. It will happen. Just be patient,

521
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: and as he said, hopefully it happens before the election.

522
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: But it's notable, right he went from this is a

523
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: hoax two weeks ago to at least in this interview

524
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: with the Wall Street Journal sort of accepting the premise. Yes,

525
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: we realized the public doesn't feel it or see it yet,

526
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: but they will, But they will, he promises, He swears.

527
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: These are these stages. It's we should call it stages

528
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: of political it's not quite political grief. But it's sort

529
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 1: of like, you know, first there's a dial right, then

530
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: there's you know, somehow you're argumentative. Then there's a form

531
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: of acceptance. He's getting into the form of acceptance, but

532
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: he's not accepting the premise that his policies are a problem.

533
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: He's just simply saying his policies haven't kicked in yet,

534
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: And that says he's no different than any other president

535
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: trying to defend a bad economy. No, no, no, no, my

536
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: policies haven't kicked in yet. It's always my policies haven't

537
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: kicked in yet. I'm dealing with the predecessor's policies. So

538
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: in that sense, it's a familiar pattern. Perhaps the best

539
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: part of that Wall Street Journal interview was the fact

540
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: that you know, he's doing the interview with the Wall

541
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: Street Turnal reporters, but he's taking calls and doing all

542
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: sorts of stuff at the same time, right, And here's

543
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: the I'm going to read directly from the article. At

544
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: one point, the President, sitting at the resolute desk with

545
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: a glittering Christmas tree at its side, asked an aid

546
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: to show him the latest market data. He took calls

547
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: from friends and allies multiple times during the interview, including

548
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: from Interior Secretary Doug Bergham, who joined by speakerphone to

549
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: discuss the administration's plans for Washington, d C. Area public

550
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: golf courses. That is right, the President seems to not

551
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: be worried about the price of groceries as much as

552
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: he's worried about the designs and who's in charge of

553
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: redesigning Washington d C's three public golf courses, Rock Creek Park,

554
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: Haines Pointston. I mean, if you're trying to hand Democrats

555
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: easier fodder to say, you know, he promised this, to focus,

556
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: laser focus on this, this and this, and instead he

557
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: cares about building a ballroom, changing the name of the

558
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: Kennedy Center, singing ymca UH, and redesigning Washington DC's golf courses,

559
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 1: all of course extraordinarily important priorities to bringing down the

560
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: costs of electricity and groceries in your home. Anyway, just

561
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: uh not not the smartest politician, but Donald Trump's never

562
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: been the smartest about messaging in that front. But that

563
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: brings me to I think a very important essay from

564
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: a quarterly journal. I'm a politically like I say, I'm

565
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: a want to be political scientist, I call myself a

566
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: political anthropologist. That means I actually read political science quarterlies.

567
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: And there's an extra jordinarily important one that's out this week.

568
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: It's an essay in Foreign Affairs, which is the flagship

569
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: journal of the Council on Foreign Relations. This isn't a

570
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: partisan outlet, it's not a resistance blog. It's the magazine

571
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: where American presidents, Secretary of States, national security advisors have

572
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: gone for generations debate how the world works and how

573
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: the United States role it should be. So three of

574
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: the most respected democracy scholars in the world from Harvard

575
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: Toronto and the Council on Foreign Relations, Steven Levitzky, Luke

576
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 1: and Way and Daniel Ziblat. They're not cable pundits. They're

577
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: not people you're going to see in the round tables

578
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: of Sunday shows. They're not political activists. They're simply political

579
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: sciences who spent their career studying how democracies erode around

580
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: the world, how they fail, and occasionally how they recover. Well,

581
00:35:54,440 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: they have an essay called with about out competitive Authoritarianism,

582
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: and in fact this is what they write, and this

583
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: is why I took it very seriously. This was not

584
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: something I read, no offense to my friends at the Bulwark.

585
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: It's not something I read in the Bullwark. Not something

586
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: you're going to see it here in pod Save of

587
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: America certainly, now you might. I doubt you'll hear this

588
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: from my friend Eric Ericson either. But here's this essay.

589
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty five, the United States ceased to be

590
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: a full democracy in the way that Canada, Germany or

591
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: even Argentina are democracies. Okay, they're just making a classification.

592
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: And then comes the line. The game, however, is far

593
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: from up. They're not saying all is lost. Okay. It

594
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 1: is an important essay because they deal with this tension

595
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 1: of yes we have had erosion and no, this isn't permanent. Okay.

596
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: So they argue that Donald Trump's second term the United

597
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 1: States crossed a definitional line into something political scientists call

598
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: competitive authoritarianism. Here's how they define it a system in

599
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: which parties compete in elections, but incumbents routinely abuse their

600
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: power to punish critics untilt the playing field against their opposition.

601
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: So elections still happen, but perhaps you threaten lawmakers to

602
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: redraw the maps to make more favorable elections. Opposition parties

603
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: still exist, but perhaps you raise the threshold for petition

604
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: signatures to get on a referendum, or you change the

605
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: dates and stuff see Missouri. But the referee is no

606
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: longer neutral, right, and the House rules keep changing. And importantly,

607
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: they're not saying this might happen, because it's already happened

608
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: in this country. A year ago, this group predicted that

609
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: this would be Trump's trajectory, that he'd weaponized state institutions

610
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: the way elected autocrats have done in Hungry, Turkey, Venezuela,

611
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: and India. And those are the four most important examples

612
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: to follow here, because Venezuela obviously the helm election the

613
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 1: leader loss, and he wouldn't leave Turkey, Hungary and India

614
00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: have are what are considered faiish elections. But we'll find

615
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: out when the ruling party loses one day just how

616
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: fair they are. But they write this indeed, the Trump

617
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: administration has done exactly that. But here's what the authors say.

618
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 1: They didn't anticipate. What's surprised even then wasn't the speed,

619
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: but it was the scope. And they write, this, one

620
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: form of authoritarian behavior that we did not anticipate a

621
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: year ago was the Trump administration's routine subversion of the

622
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: law and even the US Constitution. Well, we've seen that

623
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: with the strikes, with that as well. I mean, there

624
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: is very little, very little doubt here that this is

625
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: not yet not constitutional. The question is whether they'll even

626
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: try to give some congressional authority on that. So let

627
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: me outline a few more things that they write here,

628
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: weaponizing the state. They call it the blueprint. Every competitive

629
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: authoritarian regime follows a familiar playbook. Purge, then pack, so

630
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 1: removing professional civil servants who see their job as the law,

631
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: and replace them with loyalists who see their job as

632
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: the leader. Just look at the FBI. That's exactly what

633
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: they document happening inside the Justice Department, the FBI, and

634
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: other key agencies. When officials resisted, they were just simply removed.

635
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: We've seen US attorneys, deputy US attorneys just summarily fired

636
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: when replacements were chosen, they weren't selected for experience, but

637
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: for loyalty, including, as the author's note, Trump's own personal

638
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: lawyers installed as senior Justice Department officials. It's just right

639
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: out of, right, out of sort of. There's a fun

640
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: parody about authoritarianism called Moon over Parador with Richard Dreyfus.

641
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: I do to write that what seemed like parody is

642
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: now real. Right, And then even when prosecutions don't lead

643
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: to convictions, the authors explain why that doesn't matter. Such

644
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: investigations themselves are the powerful form of harassment, right, making

645
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: Adam Shift hire a lawyer, making Letitia James deal with this,

646
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: making James Comy deal with this, legal fees, time, reputational damage,

647
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: career disrupt eruption. The punishment is often the process itself.

648
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: They don't care if they ca convictions. They just want

649
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: them constantly made to be, you know, unhireable, don't get

650
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: them on corporate boards, make them seem as if they're

651
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: controversial figures. Then of course you got to follow the money.

652
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: Because this is what's happened with their next move, going

653
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: after civil society. How's the Trump administration done this? They've

654
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: ordered investigations into Act Blue, the primary arm of the

655
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: Democratic Party, Open Society Foundations, the George Soros founded organization.

656
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal reported that that there are plans

657
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: to target Democratic donors through the IRS. That's right out

658
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: of the competitive authoritarian handbook that these political scientists know.

659
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 1: Then there's the pressure campaign against the media. Trump sue

660
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. The

661
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: FCC opened silly investigations into ABC, CBS, PBS, NPR, Comcast,

662
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: which owns NBC. We've seen the FCC chair act like

663
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: a thug in threatening Jimmy Kimmel, Disney and NBC. It

664
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: is it is, and what makes this so dangerous and

665
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: so effective is is not just what happened, but because

666
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: of what didn't happen. In fact, our authors are arguing

667
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: that the most insidious change isn't the repression, it's been

668
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: the self censorship. They point that outlets i've become realigning

669
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: and pull back, like the Washington Post, like the editorial

670
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: page is kind of a clown show. Now it is

671
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: just outside of George Well, there's not a readable columnist

672
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: left in that place. It is just a joke. The

673
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: editorial page itself is sort of. It's like they have

674
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: one thing they do every time if there's some economic controversy,

675
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: they write some convoluted editorial attacking Elizabeth Warren. I guess

676
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: that makes Chef Bezos feel better, but it has nothing

677
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: to do with the point itself or any of the

678
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: actual rational debate that's gone on. You've had the teen

679
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: Vogue has sort of gotten rid of their political coverage.

680
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: CBS clearly just has a new owner and they just

681
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 1: wiped out, you know, brought in virtue signaling new editors

682
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: to run thing. We've seen Disney cave in, We've seen

683
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: plenty of again, all of these legacy media, these corporate owned,

684
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: shareholder driven media organizations that all fall under Donald Trump's

685
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: potential influence due to government regulation, they've all capitulated, which

686
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: is why frankly, we're doing so well here at the podcast,

687
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: So in some ways, thank you, But unfortunately, this is

688
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: why we've all gone down this independent road. Because if

689
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: you want to be honest and if you want to

690
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: tell the truth, you're gonna have to find a different

691
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: outlet because you're not gonna be able to do it

692
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: at the Washington Post. You're not gonna be able to

693
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: do it at the major legacy TV networks that are left.

694
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: I'm not saying individuals aren't trying, but collectively they're not

695
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: even giving the chance. And here's the other thing. Here's

696
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: the part we don't know. What makes self censorship so

697
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: insidious is that it is virtually impossible to ascertain its

698
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: full impact. So wrote these authors, right, we can see

699
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 1: a firing, we can see a cancelation. What we can't

700
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: see are the stories that are never pitched, the investigations

701
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: that get quietly abandoned, or the headlines that are softened

702
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 1: out of fear, or the questions that don't get asked

703
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,439
Speaker 1: on camera because executives in New York tell their correspondence

704
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: please don't do it. Because our corporate overlords are afraid

705
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: of blowback from the president that is happening. You can

706
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: guess where that's coming from. That's how democracies hollow out.

707
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: And this is where the essay draws a crucial historical line.

708
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 1: America has had its stark chapters Jim Crow read Scare,

709
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 1: Japanese Internment, McCarthys, and Nixon. But the authors also argue

710
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,879
Speaker 1: that after Watergate, the overt authoritarian abuse largely disappeared. Since

711
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four, no democratic or Republican administration had systematically

712
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: politicized law enforcement or targeted political rivals the way Donald

713
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: Trump is doing. George W. Bush his Justice Department investigative

714
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: Republicans and Democrats. Barack Obama appointed James Comey, a Republican,

715
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: to be the head of the FBI. Joe Biden kept

716
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: Christopher Ray as head of the FBI and a pointee

717
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump. Mind you, Merrick Garland bent over backwards

718
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: as Attorney General, sometimes to a fault, to avoid the

719
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 1: appearance of political interference. So the conclusion is fun in

720
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: each of those critical areas that Trump administration stands alone

721
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: in its authoritarianism. Now, none of this is inevitable. And

722
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: here's where the essay shifts from diagnosis to prognosis. He says,

723
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: the US still has advantages that most competitive authoritarian regimes

724
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: do not. There's still an independent judiciary. There's still a

725
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: professional military, though Pete hagg Seth is trying to erode it.

726
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: There's still strong federalism. I mean, look at the way

727
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis is pushed back on the AI issue in

728
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: the AI moratorium that Trump is done. There's still a

729
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: vibrant civil society. Helloo, and there's a unified opposition party.

730
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: And Trump himself lacks the single most important asset the

731
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: author's note for authoritarian consolidation overwhelming popularity. Successful autocrats often

732
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: rule with approval ratings over eight. Trump is stuck in

733
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: the low forties. And it's actually trending downward that matters.

734
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: So that brings us to what they argue is the

735
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: greatest danger of them all. The greatest danger is not repression,

736
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 1: but demobilization. It's not tanks, it's not mass arrests, its

737
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: acceptance and resignation. It's people deciding not to run, not

738
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: to donate, not to sue, not to vote. And then

739
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: this line, which is really the thesis of the piece,

740
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: The outcome of this struggle remains open. It will turn

741
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: less than the strength of the authoritarian government than on

742
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: whether enough citizens act as though their efforts still matter,

743
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: because for now they still do. So there you go, Levitzky,

744
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: Way and Ziblat. They aren't telling Americans to panic, They're

745
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: just telling you what is okay. This is what has

746
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: happened to America the first year of Trump's second term.

747
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: We have slipped into something called competitive authoritarianism. He is

748
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: trying to create an authoritarian regime. There is democracy still,

749
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: there is still competition, okay. And our future is not

750
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 1: set in stone or the cement is still wet. Okay.

751
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: They're warning against two equally dangerous instincts, complacency and fatalism.

752
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: The future is going to be unstable, okay. Neither full

753
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: democracy nor entrenched dictatorship is going to happen. It's going

754
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: to be a struggle. This is going to be a fight.

755
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: The next elections may be fought in theory over policy differences,

756
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: but they're really going to be about the larger issue

757
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: of what kind of system are we choosing to live under?

758
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: And that danger isn't that democracy disappears overnight. It's the

759
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: dangers people stop believing that they can defend it. So

760
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 1: please go read this piece. It's extraordinarily important. It's well argued,

761
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: it is you know, evidence based, it is data driven.

762
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: Is it is not just alarmist cable commentary. And that's

763
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: the most important thing. And it comes from a place

764
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 1: in the Council on Foreign Relations where important ideas sort

765
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: of get launched for debate, and this is one that

766
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: more and more mainstream Americans need to understand what is

767
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: happening and what it's taking place. All Right, I've gone

768
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 1: on a little bit longer with my first half monologue

769
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: here before than I have, But in some ways that

770
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: goes right into the need for open primaries, the need

771
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: to structure our politics so that we have more voices

772
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: that have a shot here, not fewer voices. The manipulation

773
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: of our political system sort of begins with this attempt

774
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 1: at picking who your voters are, if you will, and

775
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: that is a huge problem. So we'll sneak in a

776
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: break and when we come back, we're going to talk

777
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: to Nick Troiano ahead of United America on how we

778
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: make this democracy great again. Do you hate hangovers? We'll

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787
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788
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: tell you this, I've given up booze. I don't like

789
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,719
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Speaker 1: for thirty percent off. Joining me now to talk a

803
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: little bit about reforming are the infrastructure of the democracy.

804
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: It's somebody I've had conversations with before. Somebody I've known

805
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: a long time, Nick Triano. He's the executive director of

806
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: Unite America, the organization that brought ranked choice voting to

807
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: the state of Alaska in particular, had been fighting to

808
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: get essentially to get rid of partisan primaries, whatever form

809
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: that can be done. If it's ranked choice voting, it's

810
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: ranked choice voting simply getting rid of the need for

811
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: party registration, then it's getting rid of the need for that.

812
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 1: But it has been the through line of Nick's work.

813
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: But I know that he's essentially been in this game.

814
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: He look he ran for Congress as an independent, he's

815
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: and he realized these bare to entry were extraordinarily high.

816
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: You know, if you're not a far left or a

817
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: far right person, is there a home for you in

818
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: American politics? Is there a home for you in primaries?

819
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: And I think Nick has been devoting himself to trying

820
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: to find that place for those of us that aren't

821
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: stuck in the wings. And he joins me, now, Nick,

822
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: good to see you.

823
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 2: Good to see you.

824
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: Check. So let's start with sort of your this is

825
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: United America, what are we up ten years.

826
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: Coming up on ten years running the organization, and we're

827
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 2: not more united than I then we started. However, we're

828
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 2: still working on it.

829
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: So look, the let's start with ranked choice voting, because

830
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: I think the first time you and I had a conversation,

831
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: there was a lot of there's a lot of bullishness,

832
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: a lot of excitement about the idea. It kind of

833
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: worked right pretty It seemed like it worked the way

834
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: it was supposed to work in Alaska, it worked the

835
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: way many people were hoping it would work. In New

836
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: York City in twenty twenty one, you know, the main

837
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: experiment has been less successful because of the decision that

838
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: main lawmakers made to to only have this somehow count

839
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: for federal not for state, which is just a head scratcher.

840
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: And frankly, I find the whole New York City set

841
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: up so the Democrats use rank choice voting, but that

842
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: trust me, there are a lot of voters who wanted

843
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: rank choice voting, I think during the general election. But

844
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: I know you know this, over the last four or

845
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: five years, I feel like there's been a movement against it,

846
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 1: even people that were supportive going it's hard to explain.

847
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: You and I've had this conversation I've always said it,

848
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: you know, hey, as somebody who has walked people through

849
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: election nights and talks about, you know, vote dumps and

850
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: things like that, explaining ranked choice voting getting it out

851
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: of the black box is very difficult. So that's a

852
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: long lined up. Where are you on this? Where's United

853
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: America on rank choice voting? And is this a method

854
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 1: that you still think is the answer?

855
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,240
Speaker 2: Well, I in you in America are focused on solving

856
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 2: what we call the primary problem, which is the role

857
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: that party primaries play in exacerbating our divisions, in increasing

858
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 2: dysfunction and government because they incentivize candidates and elected officials

859
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 2: to play to the base of both parties in order

860
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: to win the only elections that really matter these days,

861
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 2: which is not the November election when most people vote,

862
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: but the primaries when the candidates are nominated, because most

863
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 2: districts and states right now lean so heavily one way

864
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 2: or another. So that's the problem, in our view, low

865
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: turnout party primaries dictating the outcomes of most elections before

866
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 2: most Americans can even vote. The solution set for what

867
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 2: we can do to solve that problem is varied, and

868
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 2: when we talk about solutions to the primary problem. It

869
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 2: could look like opening up primary so that all voters

870
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 2: can participate, including independent voters that are currently locked out

871
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 2: of primaries in sixteen states. It can look like getting

872
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: rid of party primaries and replacing it with all candidate primaries,

873
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 2: so there's a single ballot in the primary, everyone gets

874
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 2: to vote for whomever they want, and the top finishers

875
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,439
Speaker 2: go to the general election. There's a system that's called

876
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: top two that's used in California and Washington for example,

877
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: or what Alaska adopt it in twenty twenty, which is

878
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 2: a top four system. And when you advance four candidates

879
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 2: from the primary to the general election, you want to

880
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 2: ensure that one of them wins with majority support, not

881
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 2: just plurality. And there are two ways of accomplishing that.

882
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 2: One is you can hold a runoff election if no

883
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 2: one gets over fifty percent, or the other is you

884
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 2: can have an instant runoff where people rank their candidates

885
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 2: according to preference, and if no one gets a majority,

886
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 2: there's a process of elimination using voters' backup choices. That's

887
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: what ranked choice voting refers to specifically, which is the

888
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 2: part of the reform in a top four primary, that

889
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 2: is focused on ensuring a majority winner. Ranked choice voting

890
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,919
Speaker 2: is used in other circumstances, and in our view, it's

891
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: most powerful when it's combined with a reform to the

892
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 2: primary system. So Alaska's reform is a top four primary

893
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 2: reform plus ranked choice voting in the general election. And

894
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 2: other places like New York City or Maine are what

895
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 2: we would think of as partial reforms because they only

896
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 2: have ranked choice voting and they don't really have any

897
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,280
Speaker 2: other kinds of reforms to the primary system that could

898
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 2: improve governing incentives by widening the electorate.

899
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,399
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the mechanics of ranked choice voting, because

900
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: I think that's been the stumbling block. Can you is

901
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: there any way to make this feel more transparent where

902
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: you feel like you can see the You know, I

903
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 1: have not come up with one, but I'm curious if

904
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 1: if you have, or you know of other folks who tried.

905
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: Well, there's two parts to the ranked choice voting process.

906
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 2: There is the part where voters show up to the

907
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 2: voting booth or get their ballot in the mail and

908
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 2: they fill out their ballot. And that part is simple,

909
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 2: which is you have the option of ranking your candidates

910
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 2: or you can just vote for your favorite, and in

911
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 2: all of our exit polling, we found that eighty plus

912
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 2: percent of voters say that they find this simple to do,

913
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 2: and that number goes up over time as people get

914
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 2: used to it. The second part is how the votes

915
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 2: are tabulated, and that is done by election administrators. They

916
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 2: have a range of options for how they do it,

917
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 2: and some jurisdictions in the country, particularly those that have

918
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: been using it for a decade or more, have found

919
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 2: ways that this can be an instantaneous process and it

920
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: could be fully transparent, which is to say, they release

921
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 2: the cast vote records so that there is a way

922
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: that anyone can audit the results. There is a way

923
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,399
Speaker 2: to make sure that there's results delivered on election night,

924
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 2: and there's ways of displaying the results that make it

925
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 2: intuitive for people to understand exactly what happens at each

926
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 2: round of the tabulation. So the charge sometimes that it's

927
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: a complicated or confusing system is really used by opponents

928
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 2: to say, you know, let's not change the way that

929
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,320
Speaker 2: the elections are currently working, because the current way works

930
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 2: for them. It works for the two major parties, it

931
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 2: works for the incumbent politicians. They're afraid of change. But

932
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 2: you know, election reforms like the ones we champion have

933
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 2: been used successfully in America and abroad for many years,

934
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 2: and it's a necessary part of what it's going to

935
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 2: take to foster a more functional and representative government.

936
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: Look, I am, I am. If we could get if

937
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: we could go to a top four I fully believe

938
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 1: we should be a top four democracy. I'd love to

939
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: see that in our presidential race, you know where, and

940
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 1: then and that I wouldn't do rank choice. I think

941
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: the country suit there's a runoff, then the top two

942
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: face off, we have one more debate, like there's a runoff,

943
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 1: right Like it feels like that that is that we

944
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, we wouldn't have a big drop in turn

945
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, the concern and when we got rid of

946
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 1: general election runoffs, the concern is always, well, you're not

947
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 1: going to have a good turnout. Well that's not true anymore.

948
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: I mean, my god, I look at the special election

949
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: in Tennessee earlier this during the earlier part of December,

950
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: and for a special election in December. Uh, you know,

951
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: there were something like one hundred and fifty thousand total votes.

952
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: I mean, that's impressive for that. I mean, I think

953
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: the engagement with the democracy. And you know, I think

954
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: there's a I think there's a commentary about our country

955
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: that our electric gets engaged when when they when they

956
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: think they feel it slipping away. But you know, it

957
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: turns out that apathy was a sign of stability. But

958
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: it is, so I don't mind that. What but if

959
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: we had thirty states holding runoffs but the other two

960
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: and he didn't, then I could see that that would

961
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 1: be an issue.

962
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 2: Well, runoffs get a bad rap for some good reasons,

963
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 2: including that they have been used historically in ways.

964
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: To diss It was about denying black representation in the South. Right,

965
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: that's why why did we have Southern runoffs? Every Southern

966
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: state had runoffs for one reason, and one reason only,

967
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: to prevent black people from winning elections.

968
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 2: Right, And two things can be true, which is that

969
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 2: there are systems that have runoffs today that don't necessarily

970
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 2: have that negative impact that you actually do see turnout

971
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 2: increase in the runoff. That is the case in Louisiana,

972
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 2: for example, in their governor's races. Louisiana has a very

973
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 2: interesting election system where there is effectively no primary, there

974
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 2: is a general election. Everyone gets to be on the ballot.

975
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 2: They're kind of top two, right, just like Washington, and

976
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 2: if no one gets majority, there's a runoff, and so

977
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 2: in that case, the top two finishers advance, or if

978
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 2: someone gets a majority of the vote, it's a one

979
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 2: and done election. And by the way, it's simpler for

980
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 2: election administrators, it's simpler for voters, and it's better for

981
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: democracy because the election that matters is the one in

982
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: which most people are already voting, and so you get

983
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 2: a more representative outcome and there's not this initial primary

984
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 2: filter where only ten percent of voters, who are usually

985
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 2: on the most extreme fringes of the political spectrum are

986
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 2: deciding you know, election outcomes. And so this will sound

987
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 2: wonky and maybe mechanical to people, but it has an

988
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 2: impact on public policy because when you look at Louisiana,

989
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 2: it's one of the only Deep South. It is the

990
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 2: only Deep South state that's expanded medicaid, for example, and

991
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 2: was one of the first states to really lean into

992
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 2: charter school reform. And when you think about the purpose

993
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 2: of government and is it representing people, in Louisiana, more

994
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 2: citizens have access to healthcare and too education than a

995
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 2: lot of other peer states. And the reason for that

996
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 2: is they have a more functional political system with leaders

997
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 2: who are intended and focused on solving problems rather than

998
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 2: just these partisan squabbles every day, and so performing our

999
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: elections improve and center, but ultimately in per his governance

1000
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 2: so that we can solve problems that matter to people.

1001
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: Of course, I think Bill Cassidy wishes that they would

1002
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: have kept the old system, but now they're going to

1003
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: go to a primary system, which certainly complicates his path

1004
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 1: to renomination. Let's talk about where you're active on the

1005
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 1: playing field here. What's the status in Alaska, what's the

1006
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: status in Nevada. I know, those are two places that

1007
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 1: you've been active. And where else are you guys active

1008
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: in trying to expand access to primaries.

1009
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 2: So Alaska is a great success story for primary reform

1010
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 2: because after the state adopted it through the ballot initiative

1011
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 2: process in twenty twenty, it's now gone through two election

1012
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,959
Speaker 2: cycles where more voters than ever before have been able

1013
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 2: to cast what we call a meaningful ballot, you know,

1014
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 2: which is a ballot in election that's truly competitive in

1015
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 2: which of their vote matters. And what that resulted in

1016
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 2: Chuck is the State House and the state Senate now

1017
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 2: have bipartisan governing majorities. It's not just one party that's

1018
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 2: in charge. There's a coalition of members Democrats, Republicans, and

1019
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 2: independents by the way, that are working together to address

1020
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 2: the problems important to the state, most recently overriding a

1021
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 2: governor's veto to increase education funding. And so Alaska has

1022
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 2: been a success story of how better elections result in

1023
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 2: better governance, and it's produced a backlash from those who

1024
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 2: used to be in power and liked elections when it

1025
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 2: only represented a handful of people, and so they've been

1026
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 2: trying to repeal this system. They were unsuccessful in that.

1027
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 2: Last year, a majority of voters in Alaska voted to

1028
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 2: defend the system, and opponents are going to likely try

1029
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 2: again next year. And I suspect that support for the

1030
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 2: system is going to continue to grow over time, not

1031
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 2: just because people in theory like the concept of the

1032
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 2: freedom to vote for whomever they want, but now they're

1033
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 2: getting real and better results from the system that they

1034
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 2: voted in a few years ago.

1035
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: Did you think you were going to have to fight

1036
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: multiple election years in Alaska to keep the system in place.

1037
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a surprise that every action has

1038
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 2: an equal opposite reaction. There's the forces of trying to

1039
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 2: make government better fighting against the forces that are trying

1040
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 2: to protect the status quo. I think that the period

1041
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 2: of defense is most important in the immediate years after

1042
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 2: the adoption of reform, but that it gets better over

1043
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 2: time because the new incumbents, there are those elected under

1044
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 2: this system who actually like it and want to defend it.

1045
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 2: And so it's not the legislature that's trying to repeal it, right,

1046
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 2: it's a small faction of partisan activists that are.

1047
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: The other perception problem rank choice voting has, and I

1048
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 1: say it's a perception problem because it obviously depends on

1049
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: where you sit, is that it appears to have benefited

1050
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: the center left more than it has benefited anybody on

1051
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: the right.

1052
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 2: Well, I think the challenge that we saw in twenty

1053
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 2: twenty two was that the candidates who were running the

1054
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 2: two Republicans were late to adopt their campaign strategy to

1055
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 2: this new system. So instead of telling voters vote for

1056
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 2: me first and the other Republican second, they ran against

1057
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 2: the system that the voters just adopted. And so without

1058
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 2: that adoption of a new strategy to build broad coalitions.

1059
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 2: A moderate Democrat, Mary Potola, you know, was able to

1060
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 2: win that US House race. By the way, a couple

1061
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 2: of years later, voters voted differently and the Republican now

1062
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 2: represents that US House seat. So I do think that

1063
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 2: there's this transition period in which the parties and the

1064
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 2: politicians have to get smarter in how they campaign under

1065
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 2: the new rules of the system, rather than campaigning under

1066
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 2: what the old rules used to be.

1067
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 1: So that's Alaska. So you're likely having a is it

1068
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 1: the same ball on initiative that the opponents are putting

1069
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: up or are they rewarded.

1070
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 2: It they actually expanded what they're trying to repeal to

1071
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 2: include repealing dark money disclosure requirements that were originally passed

1072
01:03:57,920 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty.

1073
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that actually helps your cause. People don't like

1074
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 1: dark money.

1075
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 2: People don't like dark money, and they don't like party primaries,

1076
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 2: and they don't like plurality winners and elections, and so

1077
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 2: opponents are trying to do something unpopular for the sake

1078
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 2: of protecting, you know, what was their own political power.

1079
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 2: And I'm confident that, you know, the system will continue

1080
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 2: to endure and be a proof of concept that other

1081
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 2: states could you know, potentially replicate. And that's what we

1082
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 2: did see in last year's elections. You know, multiple other

1083
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 2: states pursued ballot initiatives for an Alaska style kind of system,

1084
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 2: and while none passed, three states came within three percentage

1085
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 2: points of passing.

1086
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: In a pretty to be honest, though, five years ago,

1087
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 1: I thought all of those were going to get pass easily.

1088
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: You know, I remember when we were first talking, and

1089
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: you know, you're like, yeah, we got to do Nevada twice.

1090
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: You were pretty you had you were kind of bullish

1091
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:57,440
Speaker 1: about Missouri, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, And it

1092
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 1: did seem as if the opponents got savvier in pushing

1093
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 1: back at you guys in Nevada and elsewhere.

1094
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 2: Well, what we're up against is the two party do

1095
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 2: optly that wants to.

1096
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 1: Protect actually working with each other this one.

1097
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 2: Right, It was the Democrats that spent over fifteen million

1098
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 2: dollars against this in Alaska and Republicans who spent over

1099
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 2: seven million in Montana to try and fight it, and

1100
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 2: they would sort of weaponize the issue and say like, actually,

1101
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 2: these reforms are about the stocking horse for the other party. Well,

1102
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 2: they both can't be right when they're saying that, and

1103
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 2: so we have work to do to build more early

1104
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 2: and durable support among voters for these policies. We don't

1105
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 2: need to convince anyone that our political system is broken.

1106
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 2: What we do need to do is educate voters about

1107
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 2: the benefits of these systems and why it is worth

1108
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 2: a change. And as you know, the threshold of getting

1109
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 2: a voter to vote yes on an initiative is much

1110
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 2: harder than getting them to vote no, because you have

1111
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 2: to kind of prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt.

1112
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: And I think that's the that's the task that you know,

1113
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 2: we've signed up for and we're going to continue to

1114
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 2: work on because the status quo is unacceptable and it's

1115
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 2: leading us in a direction in which we're seeing our

1116
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 2: politics unravel, you know, even further.

1117
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like

1118
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: there's a reason. Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury

1119
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: law firm. For the last thirty five years, they've recovered

1120
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 1: twenty five billion dollars for more than half a million clients.

1121
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 1: It includes cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing,

1122
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 1: just hoping to get away with paying as little as possible.

1123
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 1: Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

1124
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars,

1125
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 1: which was a staggering forty times the amount that the

1126
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: insurance company originally offered that original offer six hundred and

1127
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred and fifty

1128
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So with more than one thousand lawyers across

1129
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,040
Speaker 1: the country, they know how to deliver for everyday people.

1130
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 1: If you're injured, you need a lawyer, you need somebody

1131
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 1: to get your back. Check out for the People dot com,

1132
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 1: Slash podcast or now pound law, Pound five two nine

1133
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: law on your cell phone. And remember all law firms

1134
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: are not the same. So check out Morgan and Morgan.

1135
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 1: Their fee is free unless they win. So if I

1136
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: were in your shoes, I'd actually think that this is

1137
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 1: about as opportunistic of a period of a year as

1138
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: you can have. And when you think about the re

1139
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: redistricting orders, it is taking you know, the issue of

1140
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 1: political party manipulation and putting it right in the voter's face, right,

1141
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 1: so you know, I throw that in there, you throw

1142
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 1: in that the electorate that you're likely to get in

1143
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 1: a midterm environment. Is an electorate that's going to be

1144
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 1: more open to changes in the primary system. I think

1145
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 1: the electric you would get in a mega induced environment.

1146
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 1: I think we I think you know where I'm going there.

1147
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 1: So what states do you expect to be on the

1148
01:07:56,080 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 1: ballot in trying to do primary reform and is and

1149
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:04,919
Speaker 1: let me know and differentiate whether it'll be the top

1150
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,200
Speaker 1: four or it's just open primaries, et cetera.

1151
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 2: There is a lot of activity happening in the movement

1152
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,920
Speaker 2: to reform our politics. There is litigation happening to open

1153
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 2: close primaries in states like Maryland or Pennsylvania.

1154
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 1: I'm convinced there's an equal protection argument on this. I

1155
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 1: do not the idea that that there is a poll

1156
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 1: tax against me as an independent voter, and you're telling

1157
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:34,720
Speaker 1: me that the only way I could participate in a

1158
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,679
Speaker 1: taxpayer funded election is I have to join a private club.

1159
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 1: I believe that's a poll tax. I don't see how

1160
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 1: that's constitutional.

1161
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:48,720
Speaker 2: It's certainly not in our belief under many state constitutions

1162
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 2: that have even more protection for voter rights than maybe

1163
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 2: the federal constitution. And so there's work happening on that

1164
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 2: there's work happening in legislatures to at least open the

1165
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:00,840
Speaker 2: primaries to all voters. We saw earlier this year in

1166
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 2: New Mexico, after a multi year campaign, there was a

1167
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 2: bipartisan bill that passed to allow unaffiliated voters to start

1168
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 2: to participate in party primaries starting next year, over three

1169
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty thousand of them. And then, of course

1170
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 2: there is the ballot initiative pathway, and there's at least

1171
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 2: two states where local groups are pursuing the top two

1172
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:25,440
Speaker 2: all candidate primary initiative. And that's in both Massachusetts and Oklahoma,

1173
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 2: two very different states politically, but what they have in

1174
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 2: common is that all of their congressional seats are decided

1175
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 2: in the party primaries, and in Oklahoma those are closed

1176
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 2: to unaffiliated voters. And so those are two states I

1177
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 2: think to be watching for. And to your point, the

1178
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 2: environment has never been more ripe because our political system

1179
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 2: has never been more dysfunctional. We just emerged from the

1180
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 2: longest government shutdown that we've seen in history, motivated by

1181
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 2: in this case, democratic leaders who just want to fight.

1182
01:09:57,360 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what this has become. I mean the

1183
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 2: of the year. The Oxford Dictionary new word is rage bait.

1184
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 2: That's reflective of where our politics is. Right.

1185
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to understand how the word of the

1186
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:08,759
Speaker 1: year is two words.

1187
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:12,839
Speaker 2: But that's a good question. But that's reflective of our politics,

1188
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 2: which is it's about playing to the base. It's about

1189
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 2: demonstrating the fight, not about solving problems. And that's why

1190
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,760
Speaker 2: this primary problem, the incentives, is behind so much of

1191
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 2: the dysfunction that we see our inability to solve problems.

1192
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 2: Another issue we can look at is immigration. As you know, Chuck,

1193
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 2: a decade ago, there was a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform

1194
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:35,759
Speaker 2: bill that passed the Senate, it goes to the House.

1195
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 2: Why does it fail? Well, the House majority leader was

1196
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 2: primaried out of office that summer because he was open

1197
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,080
Speaker 2: to some compromise on this issue. And then here we

1198
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 2: are a decade of pendulum politics. We had, you know,

1199
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 2: effectively open borders under the Bided administration, and now we

1200
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:55,680
Speaker 2: have ice raids with even American citizens being snatched off

1201
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 2: the streets under President Trump. People don't want these extra

1202
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,800
Speaker 2: dream policies that we've been seeing of late. They want

1203
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:07,679
Speaker 2: these issues to be addressed in a sensible way. That's

1204
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 2: not going to happen until we change the incentives of

1205
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 2: our political system.

1206
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 1: You and I go back, I think almost two decades now,

1207
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 1: our mutual mentor the late Doug Bailey, and you know

1208
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:25,120
Speaker 1: you've been in this, You've been in this what I

1209
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 1: call radical centrism, you know, movement for some time. I

1210
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 1: use that phrase. I'm going to be a bit self

1211
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 1: referential and name drop here. Bono called me a radical

1212
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 1: centrist one time at a salon dinner that we were

1213
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 1: at together, and I said, are you I'm going to

1214
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 1: take it as a compliment. He says, Okay, he wasn't.

1215
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,200
Speaker 1: He goes, it's sort of a compliment. He goes, there's

1216
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 1: sometimes that I wish you would take up this cause here,

1217
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 1: this cause there. And I always say, I'm not a centrist.

1218
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 1: I'm an incrementalist, meaning late are some things I'm on

1219
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:00,760
Speaker 1: the left and some things I'm on the right. But

1220
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 1: I know that the only way to make change in

1221
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: america's one step at a time. And I don't think

1222
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:07,640
Speaker 1: you try to do big things. You try to do

1223
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 1: baby steps and eventually you get your hockey stick moment.

1224
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 1: Why do you think it's been so hard to galvanize

1225
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 1: the frustrated center in America.

1226
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:24,720
Speaker 2: Well, first I would, I would. I was also say

1227
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 2: on this topic of what, you know, what is the

1228
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 2: ideology of this movement that wants to make politics better?

1229
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 2: I think centrism comes short in describing it because it

1230
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:36,640
Speaker 2: really is not about living in what many people view

1231
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:37,759
Speaker 2: as a mushy middle.

1232
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 1: It is about No, it's not about just everything's a compromise.

1233
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 1: It's just that it's that's that's not what it is.

1234
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: That's why I always say no, no, no, I'm an incrementalist.

1235
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 1: You know, I empathize with your idea on here, let's

1236
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 1: try with let's try one step.

1237
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's about also people that want to find common

1238
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,520
Speaker 2: grounds and no matter where you are in the political spectrum,

1239
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 2: you can work with others to see what you have

1240
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 2: in common to actually get something done. And that's how

1241
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 2: the biggest, most durable change that we've seen as a

1242
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 2: country work. When we look at the landmark pieces of

1243
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 2: legislation that have passed the Congress, whether that was civil

1244
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 2: rights or social security, or medicare or welfare reform and

1245
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:21,639
Speaker 2: a balanced budget, these things were votes of a majority

1246
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 2: of both parties doing it together and to be sustainable,

1247
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 2: not what we're seeing today. The promise of primary reform

1248
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:32,480
Speaker 2: is that for every state that adopts it, it effectively

1249
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:36,679
Speaker 2: liberates both senators and the representatives from those states from

1250
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:40,599
Speaker 2: being beholden to the base to being representative of the whole.

1251
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,759
Speaker 2: And so you don't need to win in all fifty states.

1252
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 2: If we can abolish party primaries in ten states, that's

1253
01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 2: twenty US senators. It's a fifth of the Senate that

1254
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:52,840
Speaker 2: actually can have more leaders who are willing to work

1255
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 2: with each other on issues of national importance. That's never

1256
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 2: been more important for the country. When I think about

1257
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:01,840
Speaker 2: where we're at right now facing the rise of artificial intelligence.

1258
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 2: Whether we get this right in terms of setting the

1259
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:07,720
Speaker 2: right rules for the road, having the right over set

1260
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 2: in place, making the right investments, that's going to be

1261
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:15,560
Speaker 2: hugely consequential for our economy and national security in our society.

1262
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:18,920
Speaker 2: And if we don't have a representative Congress that can

1263
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 2: do that, other countries will, or the corporations themselves will,

1264
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 2: and we're all going to be worse off for it.

1265
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 2: So whether we have a Congress that works affects us all,

1266
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:31,439
Speaker 2: and the reason why it doesn't today is not just

1267
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:36,000
Speaker 2: because of this partisan paralysis. It's because without competitive elections,

1268
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:38,360
Speaker 2: we wind up getting career politicians who stay in office

1269
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 2: for way too long. We have a quarter of the

1270
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:43,760
Speaker 2: Congress that's over the retirement age, over a third of

1271
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 2: the sentence above age seventy. It's how we get congressional

1272
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 2: hearings where they're asking about tik tak instead of TikTok.

1273
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 2: And these aren't the folks that we needed making the

1274
01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:55,640
Speaker 2: decisions that are to affect maybe the biggest transformation our

1275
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,599
Speaker 2: economy and society, you know, going forward.

1276
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 1: The biggest difficult I have. And I'll just speak for myself,

1277
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 1: and I'm curious where you're where you are on this

1278
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:11,720
Speaker 1: what I'm about to bring up, which is I am

1279
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:17,559
Speaker 1: I am easily persuaded in the reform movement, right, I

1280
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of I'm I look at the

1281
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:24,439
Speaker 1: last sort of crisis moments in American history, and each

1282
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 1: one of them came with serious periods of reform. You know,

1283
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 1: after the Civil War, during the basically after the Gilded Age,

1284
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 1: and the and the and the robber barons right after,

1285
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:42,719
Speaker 1: you know, during and after FDR, and you know, both

1286
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:45,919
Speaker 1: for good and for bad, right like when when, And

1287
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 1: so I'm optimistic that we're about to hit one of

1288
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:51,400
Speaker 1: those periods that we know, look, we've got to do

1289
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 1: something about the pardon power. We've got to do something.

1290
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:56,519
Speaker 1: You know, it's clear the Constitution is going to have

1291
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 1: to deal with campaign finance issues because you can't do

1292
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 1: it legislatively. And we've got to deal with age limits. Right,

1293
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:04,680
Speaker 1: I'm all for this age issue, but they're only you

1294
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: have to do it in the Constitution. So the point

1295
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 1: is is that I can be I'm almost like a

1296
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 1: squirrel with this. I'm like, oh, I like that reform.

1297
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I want to do this. There's a lot

1298
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: of I've been you you go to these gatherings too.

1299
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:21,200
Speaker 1: I get invited to many of these sort of gatherings,

1300
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:25,799
Speaker 1: whether it's a fledgling third party movement, fledgling reform movement,

1301
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, those advocating a constitutional convention, the folks at

1302
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 1: the Forward Party. You've got the World Open Primaries, which

1303
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:37,720
Speaker 1: is another organization that's working in a similar fashion. I

1304
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 1: know there's a loose connectivity between these groups, right you guys,

1305
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 1: you know, you're all rowing in the same direction, but

1306
01:16:44,479 --> 01:16:47,679
Speaker 1: everybody has their own sort of lane in their own thing,

1307
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 1: and maybe it's you already are biased that you have

1308
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:54,920
Speaker 1: got to start. Do you think you feel like there

1309
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 1: is an order to the reform that's necessary here, that

1310
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, before we get to we've got to do why,

1311
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 1: and before we get to why, we got to do z.

1312
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:06,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think two things are true. One is, we

1313
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:10,800
Speaker 2: have a beautiful system of federalism in our country, and

1314
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 2: we can do this in an experimental way at the

1315
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 2: state level. I mean, and that is the way that

1316
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:18,519
Speaker 2: these reforms have gotten done in the past and will today,

1317
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:21,800
Speaker 2: which is states can change these rules without an Act

1318
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:24,960
Speaker 2: of Congress or a constitutional amendment, and by virtue of

1319
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,640
Speaker 2: building momentum around reform, it will put more pressure on

1320
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 2: Congress and potentially create an environment in which constitutional change

1321
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:34,240
Speaker 2: is possible. So I think the state by state route

1322
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:37,559
Speaker 2: is both a strategy and an opportunity to try different things.

1323
01:17:38,240 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 2: And the second thing is I and we did not

1324
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:46,120
Speaker 2: start with primary reform as being our north star. We

1325
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 2: got there through examining what sits at the center of

1326
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:55,400
Speaker 2: both what is most viable and could be most impactful.

1327
01:17:56,080 --> 01:18:00,080
Speaker 2: And I do think that abolishing party primaries is the

1328
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 2: biggest possible change that we can make right now that

1329
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:07,479
Speaker 2: can open the window for other potential changes down the road,

1330
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 2: particularly changes that will require legislatures to do something, because

1331
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:14,800
Speaker 2: for them to do something on this issue, they need

1332
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:17,679
Speaker 2: to be more representative of the population who supports these

1333
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 2: reforms than they are today. So I both support an

1334
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:24,519
Speaker 2: experimental approach to this and we support primary reform for

1335
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 2: a very particular reason, which I do think it is

1336
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:28,400
Speaker 2: the most solvable problem right now.

1337
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:30,920
Speaker 1: Well, and that's the key, which is what's a problem

1338
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:34,519
Speaker 1: you could solve first? And I think there's no doubt

1339
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:38,760
Speaker 1: about that. This feels like a you know again, I

1340
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:41,640
Speaker 1: called myself an incrementalist. This is an incremental step that

1341
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 1: could actually, you know, open the door to a whole

1342
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:50,040
Speaker 1: bunch more of ideas. Do you find yourself frustrated that

1343
01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:54,599
Speaker 1: other reform minded folks don't see this as the core problem?

1344
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:56,840
Speaker 2: I think I was frustrated in year one when more,

1345
01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:58,760
Speaker 2: you know, or year two, when we're back at the

1346
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:00,760
Speaker 2: same table and arguing no this one, no this one,

1347
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:03,479
Speaker 2: and realize, like we're thirty people in the room, there's

1348
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:06,000
Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty million people out there. Those are

1349
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 2: the folks that we need to be kind of talking to.

1350
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:11,879
Speaker 2: And so my orientation changed, like this is a positive

1351
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:14,559
Speaker 2: sum approach to a movement. You know, when you look

1352
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:17,160
Speaker 2: at the environmental movement or other movements, there's not just

1353
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:22,000
Speaker 2: one policy that they're behind. It's a diversified approach, including

1354
01:19:22,040 --> 01:19:23,639
Speaker 2: what could be done on the state or federal level.

1355
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:28,360
Speaker 2: And so it doesn't frustrate me that there are multiple

1356
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:32,200
Speaker 2: potential pathways to making our democracy better. The thing that's

1357
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 2: frustrating to me is around apathy or defense of the

1358
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:40,760
Speaker 2: status quo, because can anyone look around today and say, oh, no,

1359
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 2: this is actually fine and we're moving in an okayed direction.

1360
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:47,479
Speaker 2: If you can't, then choose something, choose one of these

1361
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:50,760
Speaker 2: things to be for and get behind it, because I

1362
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:53,520
Speaker 2: don't think the path that we're on, you know, is sustainable.

1363
01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:58,840
Speaker 1: What's been You know, there's a lot of statistics that

1364
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:03,800
Speaker 1: show that the the youngest voting generation is not registering

1365
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:06,920
Speaker 1: D or R. The registering is I or no party affiliation.

1366
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:11,280
Speaker 1: So in theory, this should be the core of the

1367
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:15,160
Speaker 1: activists that you're able to recruit to make this change.

1368
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:18,880
Speaker 1: Are you making some inroads? Is this something that can

1369
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 1: be turned into a something that's galvanizable with the college crowd.

1370
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:26,840
Speaker 2: I do believe that. And what we saw last year

1371
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,880
Speaker 2: was that the number one predictor for voters that would

1372
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 2: support election reform at the ballot was not by party affiliation,

1373
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:38,280
Speaker 2: It was really by age. Younger voters disproportionately in favor

1374
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:41,280
Speaker 2: of changes to a political system they've only known has

1375
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 2: been broken. An older voter is sort of more hesitant

1376
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:47,200
Speaker 2: around any potential changes to a system they've known the

1377
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:51,000
Speaker 2: same way while all of their lives. And that's good news,

1378
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:53,880
Speaker 2: because young voters become all voters and just a question

1379
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:56,719
Speaker 2: of time. And so I think time is a really

1380
01:20:56,720 --> 01:20:59,719
Speaker 2: important lever here when you look back as your reference

1381
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 2: before or to the progressive era, when we got major

1382
01:21:03,479 --> 01:21:06,000
Speaker 2: reforms down the women won the right to vote, the

1383
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:09,960
Speaker 2: direct election of the Senate, banning of corporate campaign contributions,

1384
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 2: income tax, the big party primaries.

1385
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:15,840
Speaker 1: People don't realize the income tax amendment was important because

1386
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:19,080
Speaker 1: it also helped create the property tax structure in America,

1387
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:22,360
Speaker 1: which is, you know how we fund so many local services.

1388
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:24,599
Speaker 2: And that didn't happen in just a couple of years.

1389
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:27,519
Speaker 2: That was a thirty year period of time. And so

1390
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 2: when I think about, oh, Alaska won this transformational reform

1391
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:34,760
Speaker 2: four years ago. It suggests to me we're at the

1392
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:40,719
Speaker 2: beginning of a very exciting decade plus era of reform

1393
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:46,200
Speaker 2: in reaction to you know, historic levels of polarization and partisanship.

1394
01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:49,080
Speaker 2: The country knows is just not working for them right now.

1395
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:54,040
Speaker 1: You know, we've sort of danced around this issue, but

1396
01:21:54,080 --> 01:21:57,120
Speaker 1: the biggest opponent to everything you're trying to do is

1397
01:21:57,640 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 1: the duopoly, and it's you know, the Democrats in party,

1398
01:22:01,120 --> 01:22:03,639
Speaker 1: in the Republican Party doesn't really work together on anything

1399
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:08,760
Speaker 1: other than this right, which is sort of protecting their

1400
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:14,439
Speaker 1: status at the ballot. You can sometimes win over local

1401
01:22:15,439 --> 01:22:18,880
Speaker 1: members of a party or local party organizations if they're

1402
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:26,960
Speaker 1: in a state where they've been marginalized. But I imagine donors

1403
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:31,840
Speaker 1: are hard to come by because a donor usually is

1404
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:35,880
Speaker 1: a partisan right. They usually are passionate about something. Is

1405
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:40,360
Speaker 1: it hard to find people passionate in the very wealthy

1406
01:22:40,360 --> 01:22:41,320
Speaker 1: space about reform.

1407
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 2: But unit in America over the years is built across

1408
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:49,320
Speaker 2: partisan community. Now over one hundred and twenty what we

1409
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 2: call political philanthropists, and many of them have not traditionally

1410
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 2: been partisan donors, investing in politics for a partisan outcome.

1411
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:00,320
Speaker 2: That's fine. But there's been a lot a lot of

1412
01:23:00,360 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 2: people who have come into this movement because their interest

1413
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:08,360
Speaker 2: is not trying to elect or oppose one political party

1414
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:11,840
Speaker 2: or another. It's about people who have been philanthropically mind

1415
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 2: who care about an issue, that knows we're not going

1416
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:17,760
Speaker 2: to make progress on that issue, but for government being

1417
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 2: able to be functional and representative of the electorate. So

1418
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:23,640
Speaker 2: I would say it's a different profile oftentimes of a

1419
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:29,040
Speaker 2: donor that gets involved in this space, and from across

1420
01:23:29,080 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 2: the political spectrum as well. It's really interesting in this work,

1421
01:23:32,400 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 2: not just at our team or board level, but also

1422
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:36,759
Speaker 2: in the donor community of people that may not agree

1423
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 2: a lot on particular candidates or particular policies, but we

1424
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:44,320
Speaker 2: do agree that government should represent a true majority of Americans.

1425
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:47,720
Speaker 2: And then let's have the argument once we have a

1426
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:49,560
Speaker 2: government that can represent us.

1427
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:52,599
Speaker 1: I know you said in a few states where there's

1428
01:23:52,600 --> 01:23:55,160
Speaker 1: not a referendum option that you're trying to work in

1429
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 1: the state legislature, obviously you have to go with the

1430
01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:01,920
Speaker 1: lowest common denominator. Stuff is it? Is it simply allowing

1431
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:06,800
Speaker 1: independence in primaries? That's about the about the best you

1432
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:10,360
Speaker 1: can hope for in convincing a legislature to do.

1433
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:15,600
Speaker 2: Something in the near term. I do think that legislatories

1434
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:19,800
Speaker 2: will take more time to bring along to more ambitious reforms.

1435
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:23,439
Speaker 2: But let's remember that California adopted its all candidate primary

1436
01:24:23,439 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 2: system by legislative referral, so some states legislators might be

1437
01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:30,120
Speaker 2: willing to at least put it on the ballot. It

1438
01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:34,559
Speaker 2: takes leadership, though Governor Schwarzenegger was instrumental, you know, in

1439
01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:37,400
Speaker 2: that campaign. And when I look at incoming governors like

1440
01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:41,000
Speaker 2: an Abigail Spanberger who serves in you know, have one term,

1441
01:24:41,439 --> 01:24:44,719
Speaker 2: there's in Virginia. Maybe this is something that schol champion

1442
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 2: is part of her legacy there to say this will

1443
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:50,040
Speaker 2: be good for the commonwealth out into the future. Let's

1444
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:53,839
Speaker 2: get this done. I think when we have executive leadership

1445
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 2: that leans into the issue, legislatures may be more likely

1446
01:24:57,040 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 2: to follow.

1447
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:08,680
Speaker 1: Look, I mean, I'm just ecstatic that is a Virginia voter.

1448
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:10,320
Speaker 1: I don't have to register by party, and I at

1449
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:12,519
Speaker 1: least get a choice what primary, you know, and I

1450
01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:14,880
Speaker 1: always just find the competitive primary and I vote in it.

1451
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:19,040
Speaker 1: So I you know, Virginia is a place where where

1452
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 1: you feel like no matter where what your ideological stripe

1453
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 1: is you at least have some say in the conversation.

1454
01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:33,080
Speaker 1: But Virginia may also repeal a constitutional amendment on redistricting

1455
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:36,519
Speaker 1: reform in a couple of months, and California just did it.

1456
01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:40,000
Speaker 1: And I look at what happened there. There was real

1457
01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:43,599
Speaker 1: momentum on redistricting reform just four or five years ago.

1458
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:47,120
Speaker 1: And I would bet frankly that movement had more momentum

1459
01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:47,960
Speaker 1: than your movement. Did.

1460
01:25:48,240 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 2: We were part of that, actually, yeah for.

1461
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:55,559
Speaker 1: Me, but it had a and and it's amazing how

1462
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:59,519
Speaker 1: that flipped that quickly. Are you at all I mean,

1463
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 1: are you at all demoralized at how people who are

1464
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:06,880
Speaker 1: reformers are going? Yeah? But on this, I mean I

1465
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:10,559
Speaker 1: just have struggled, you know. And I've had this debate

1466
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 1: with friends out in California. I said, look, I just

1467
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:17,599
Speaker 1: don't understand why if disenfranchising voters in Texas is bad,

1468
01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:21,240
Speaker 1: why is the answer disenfranchising voters in California.

1469
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:24,599
Speaker 2: I'm with you. I think fighting fire with fire means

1470
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:28,120
Speaker 2: everything just burns down. So it was not in favor

1471
01:26:28,160 --> 01:26:29,479
Speaker 2: of what California.

1472
01:26:28,960 --> 01:26:29,839
Speaker 1: Is a good expression.

1473
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:33,080
Speaker 2: However, a fair way the instinct which is that I

1474
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:34,320
Speaker 2: get it, I get it.

1475
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:34,840
Speaker 1: Yep.

1476
01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:37,960
Speaker 2: And I also think it's important to bring it back

1477
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:42,280
Speaker 2: to why it's happening When Texas redistricted, when Missouri followed suit,

1478
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 2: and now there's pressure in Indiana. It's because the president

1479
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:49,160
Speaker 2: right now is weaponizing the primary system to get it done.

1480
01:26:49,160 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 2: When he goes sweeps into a state, it is get this,

1481
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:55,400
Speaker 2: find me five more seats, or I'm going to primary

1482
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:59,040
Speaker 2: you in your next election. So I think it's important

1483
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:02,040
Speaker 2: we connect the dots to the political incentives piece, which

1484
01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:05,519
Speaker 2: is how primaries can be weaponized not just to push

1485
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:07,639
Speaker 2: people to the extremes, but to push them to do

1486
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:12,280
Speaker 2: undemocratic things to consolidate power. The opposite is true as well,

1487
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:14,000
Speaker 2: or the other side of the coin, which is that

1488
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:18,639
Speaker 2: if we didn't have party primaries, this challenge of safe

1489
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:21,800
Speaker 2: districts or districts that are heavily lapside would matter less

1490
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:25,320
Speaker 2: check because there would be more competition in the general

1491
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:29,439
Speaker 2: election if we advanced more than two candidates rather than

1492
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:31,400
Speaker 2: what it is you know right now. And so I

1493
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:34,599
Speaker 2: think the answer to go ahead and create a partisan primaries. Right,

1494
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 2: go ahead and create a partisan plus twenty district in California.

1495
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:42,519
Speaker 2: At least there'll be a top two in the same

1496
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 2: party and then they fight over you know, you know,

1497
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:48,320
Speaker 2: left versus center. I mean, I always thought Berman Sherman

1498
01:27:48,479 --> 01:27:52,759
Speaker 2: was the first one of these, and it was Howard

1499
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:56,360
Speaker 2: Berman and Brad Sherman. They got redistricted into the same

1500
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:59,559
Speaker 2: thing together and they both advanced to the they were

1501
01:27:59,560 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 2: in the top to and so.

1502
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:04,080
Speaker 1: It was a D on D general election. And I

1503
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:08,839
Speaker 1: remember the dividing issue was actually tart at the time,

1504
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:12,080
Speaker 1: and one of them had been you know, voted against it,

1505
01:28:12,160 --> 01:28:14,200
Speaker 1: one of them voted for it. And then essentially they

1506
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:17,519
Speaker 1: were wooing the third of Republicans that were in their district. Right,

1507
01:28:17,520 --> 01:28:19,760
Speaker 1: they were both Democrats, and there was a third of

1508
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:22,679
Speaker 1: Republicans that were the swing voter. And I thought, boy,

1509
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:28,559
Speaker 1: that could really if we could have that system everywhere where,

1510
01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:31,960
Speaker 1: at any point in time, even if you're in the minority,

1511
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:35,040
Speaker 1: your vote could be the swing vote. You get to

1512
01:28:35,080 --> 01:28:39,080
Speaker 1: decide do I want, you know, do I want a

1513
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 1: libertarian conservative or do I want a evangelical conservative? Right,

1514
01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:46,120
Speaker 1: if that's the two choices, well, I you know, it

1515
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:47,960
Speaker 1: may not like either, but I have a preference of

1516
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:52,000
Speaker 1: which I want less, you know exactly, Yeah.

1517
01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:54,720
Speaker 2: You think about it. The midterm elections that we're going

1518
01:28:54,760 --> 01:28:58,040
Speaker 2: to go into in ninety percent of the districts, these

1519
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:01,680
Speaker 2: elections are over before people show up in November, and

1520
01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:04,400
Speaker 2: their vote, if they cast, it really doesn't matter.

1521
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:06,800
Speaker 1: We're one hundred and ten million, you know, I think

1522
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:08,920
Speaker 1: we'll get one hundred and ten million midterm voters. Maybe

1523
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:11,559
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifteen. It's turnout. It's been amazing in

1524
01:29:11,600 --> 01:29:13,480
Speaker 1: the Trump era again.

1525
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:16,080
Speaker 2: And.

1526
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:21,880
Speaker 1: Maybe there'll be thirty five congressional seats decided by ten

1527
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:26,000
Speaker 1: points or less out of four hundred and thirty five maybe, right.

1528
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:28,960
Speaker 2: So that's tens of millions of people, you know, who

1529
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:33,799
Speaker 2: is A vote effectively does not matter. It's impooring people vote,

1530
01:29:33,960 --> 01:29:39,480
Speaker 2: but on participation without competition does not result in representation.

1531
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:41,360
Speaker 2: If we want your vote to matter, you have to

1532
01:29:41,400 --> 01:29:44,160
Speaker 2: have a choice that is real. And so the idea

1533
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:47,679
Speaker 2: that in red districts you get to choose what kind

1534
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:50,360
Speaker 2: of Republican you want, during blue districts, what kind of

1535
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:53,080
Speaker 2: Democrat you want in the general election, is much better

1536
01:29:53,280 --> 01:29:56,479
Speaker 2: than showing up to an election that's already been you know, decided.

1537
01:29:58,000 --> 01:29:59,839
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I grew up growing up in Miami,

1538
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:01,880
Speaker 1: up in the seventies and eighties, and I remember my

1539
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:06,400
Speaker 1: dad was a Republican Conservative, but he was a registered Democrat,

1540
01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:08,960
Speaker 1: and I remember asking him, I said, why are you

1541
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:11,800
Speaker 1: Originally he says, well, there's no Republicans down here because

1542
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:13,679
Speaker 1: at the time the South, this was back in the seventies,

1543
01:30:14,040 --> 01:30:18,880
Speaker 1: every politician in the South, everybody was a Democrat, but

1544
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:22,759
Speaker 1: half the Democrats were really Republicans. But all the local offices,

1545
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:24,080
Speaker 1: he said, if I want to have to say in

1546
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:27,960
Speaker 1: local primaries, you know I got to vote. So in

1547
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:32,599
Speaker 1: some ways, conservatives, older conservatives in the South have actually

1548
01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:35,519
Speaker 1: been participating in primaries this way for a long time.

1549
01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:39,320
Speaker 2: I mean, it all boils down to the idea that

1550
01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 2: every American should have the freedom to vote fro whenever

1551
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 2: they want and every taxpayer funded election period. Right seventy

1552
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:49,840
Speaker 2: eighty percent of voters, regardless of party, believe in that.

1553
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:53,639
Speaker 2: In addition, though to the attacks on redistricting, what we're

1554
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:56,640
Speaker 2: also seeing in nine states right now is attempts by

1555
01:30:56,720 --> 01:31:00,679
Speaker 2: legislators to close the primaries and actually start to register

1556
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:03,920
Speaker 2: voters by party in order to do so. That is

1557
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:06,559
Speaker 2: extremely unpopular. I mean, we just released a poll today

1558
01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:09,920
Speaker 2: from Republican polster in Texas that found two thirds of

1559
01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:13,240
Speaker 2: Republican primary voters support the current system. They like to

1560
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 2: have the freedom to vote. They don't like the idea

1561
01:31:15,479 --> 01:31:18,360
Speaker 2: of government overreach and starting to have to register publicly

1562
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:22,280
Speaker 2: what party you're from. So these attempts are driven by insiders,

1563
01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 2: driven by extreme factions. What they're trying to do is unpopular,

1564
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:28,360
Speaker 2: and that's one of the reasons why you Know in

1565
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:30,519
Speaker 2: America is working hard in these states to defend the

1566
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 2: current system from going backwards. And what we have found

1567
01:31:34,240 --> 01:31:36,920
Speaker 2: is that our allies in this in many cases are

1568
01:31:37,560 --> 01:31:41,240
Speaker 2: Republican legislative leaders who know that not only is this

1569
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:43,960
Speaker 2: bad for America, it's bad for their party. When the

1570
01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:47,559
Speaker 2: largest and fastest growing part of the electorate are those

1571
01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:50,080
Speaker 2: that don't belong to either party, How can you expect

1572
01:31:50,120 --> 01:31:52,439
Speaker 2: to win those voters over if you're kicking them out

1573
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 2: of the process in which you're choosing your candidates. And

1574
01:31:55,360 --> 01:31:59,320
Speaker 2: so it really is, you know, courageous Republican leaders in

1575
01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:01,439
Speaker 2: many of these states that are standing up to forces

1576
01:32:01,479 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 2: within their own party that want to close elections to

1577
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:08,120
Speaker 2: create more pure ideological purity that might wind up costing

1578
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:09,080
Speaker 2: them elections.

1579
01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:12,040
Speaker 1: Is there a good privacy argument. I mean, you know,

1580
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to have to join one of these

1581
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:17,040
Speaker 1: two clubs. Don't make me join a club. I want

1582
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:21,120
Speaker 1: the privacy of keeping my you know, I may lean

1583
01:32:21,160 --> 01:32:23,960
Speaker 1: one way or the other, but I'd prefer the government

1584
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:27,160
Speaker 1: and anybody that checks my voter registration to just see

1585
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 1: I'm a registered voter period. I don't think you should

1586
01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:33,320
Speaker 1: know my politics. Now. You may learn it over time,

1587
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:37,120
Speaker 1: but I don't want to have to identify. I mean,

1588
01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:41,840
Speaker 1: it's sort of a strange thing that government is making

1589
01:32:41,920 --> 01:32:45,599
Speaker 1: people do this in a quote unquote democracy percent.

1590
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:48,080
Speaker 2: I mean, we adopted the secret ballot a century ago

1591
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 2: to give people privacy over their right to vote. In

1592
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:56,280
Speaker 2: many states, however, we force people to register publicly with

1593
01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:58,559
Speaker 2: a political party. Go in some database, I can see

1594
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:02,439
Speaker 2: what party you belong too. In many states don't have

1595
01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:06,040
Speaker 2: this system today, and that's what those those states are

1596
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:08,240
Speaker 2: trying to change. And I agree with you that it's

1597
01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:11,600
Speaker 2: an invasion of privacy, particularly in an era of politics

1598
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:15,080
Speaker 2: in which one's party affiliation can be used against them.

1599
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:18,320
Speaker 1: No, it gets weaponized culturally, it can be weaponized at

1600
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:20,600
Speaker 1: your job, it can do this. I mean, you know

1601
01:33:20,680 --> 01:33:24,600
Speaker 1: the local part well, the local Democratic Party here in

1602
01:33:24,680 --> 01:33:27,200
Speaker 1: Arlington County if you want to participate in some of

1603
01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 1: the county primaries, because Virginia, each county can sort of

1604
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:32,519
Speaker 1: party can decide how they want to do it. So

1605
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:35,639
Speaker 1: they don't have party primaries, they don't have taxpayer fund

1606
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:37,719
Speaker 1: of primaries, but they do have their own party primary

1607
01:33:38,360 --> 01:33:40,040
Speaker 1: and you have to sign a pledge if you want

1608
01:33:40,040 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 1: to participate in it, and I just won't do that.

1609
01:33:43,360 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 1: I know the pledge is meaningless, but I kind of feel,

1610
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:48,960
Speaker 1: you know, but I don't think they have the right

1611
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:52,160
Speaker 1: to ask that right now. It is a privately funded

1612
01:33:52,240 --> 01:33:55,759
Speaker 1: election that they run, so okay, it's a private organization.

1613
01:33:56,360 --> 01:34:00,400
Speaker 1: They can have that say. So I just don't particip in.

1614
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 1: I won't justicipad in because there're sometimes the Republicans have

1615
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:05,680
Speaker 1: gone off and on about doing the same thing where

1616
01:34:05,680 --> 01:34:08,120
Speaker 1: they make you sign an oath because there isn't a

1617
01:34:08,360 --> 01:34:12,880
Speaker 1: there isn't party registration in this state. So let me

1618
01:34:13,120 --> 01:34:17,439
Speaker 1: shift in our last few minutes here to the other

1619
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:21,559
Speaker 1: areas of reform to focus on. So I agree with you.

1620
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:25,360
Speaker 1: I think primaries number one are sort of easy to

1621
01:34:25,479 --> 01:34:28,400
Speaker 1: communicate to people that it's a problem, right, it's a

1622
01:34:28,479 --> 01:34:31,880
Speaker 1: we're polarized. Hey, it's this primary issue. People get it,

1623
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:34,639
Speaker 1: So I'm with you. I think it is the good

1624
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:38,760
Speaker 1: first reform to focus on what's next. What's two, three,

1625
01:34:38,840 --> 01:34:41,799
Speaker 1: and four in your head? I think it's a good question.

1626
01:34:42,439 --> 01:34:45,200
Speaker 1: I think we need to do something on campaign finance.

1627
01:34:45,400 --> 01:34:47,680
Speaker 1: It's a salient issue for most voters. They don't like

1628
01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:51,920
Speaker 1: the idea of special interests or wealthy interests having disproportionate

1629
01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:55,280
Speaker 1: say in our political system. That will likely require a

1630
01:34:55,320 --> 01:35:00,400
Speaker 1: constitutional amendment. There's something the other number two when you

1631
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:03,960
Speaker 1: ask people what's wrong with politics today ones money in politics.

1632
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:06,519
Speaker 2: The next is career politicians. And I think there is

1633
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:08,720
Speaker 2: something to do with age limits and term limits to

1634
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:12,640
Speaker 2: make sure that we have a Congress that can reasonably

1635
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:16,439
Speaker 2: turn over with time and remain both nimble to the

1636
01:35:16,479 --> 01:35:20,880
Speaker 2: issues of the day, you know, and representative of people. Again,

1637
01:35:21,040 --> 01:35:24,719
Speaker 2: those may require amendments, so those are harder, you know, lifts.

1638
01:35:24,840 --> 01:35:29,160
Speaker 2: I'm also frankly interested in what may not be a

1639
01:35:29,280 --> 01:35:33,880
Speaker 2: reform that requires a change in law or state constitutions.

1640
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:36,160
Speaker 2: But how do we think about other ways we do

1641
01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:39,599
Speaker 2: democracy outside of an electoral context, And there's a growing

1642
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:44,160
Speaker 2: movement around deliberative democracy. And citizen assemblies, which are essentially

1643
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:48,679
Speaker 2: randomly assembled groups of citizens that can deliberate on issues

1644
01:35:48,720 --> 01:35:51,760
Speaker 2: and make recommendations to government. I think they're interesting ways

1645
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:54,479
Speaker 2: where they can actually be integrated into the government, like.

1646
01:35:54,479 --> 01:35:57,559
Speaker 1: A jury pool, but instead of for deciding somebody's guilt

1647
01:35:57,600 --> 01:36:02,760
Speaker 1: or innocence. Okay, Arlington County is going to do a

1648
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:06,200
Speaker 1: random jury of one hundred citizens because we want to

1649
01:36:06,240 --> 01:36:10,040
Speaker 1: decide whether we want to put bike lanes.

1650
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:13,200
Speaker 2: Everywhere, right, yeah, I mean, and this goes back to

1651
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:16,400
Speaker 2: Athenian democracy. I mean, this is not a new idea.

1652
01:36:16,479 --> 01:36:19,639
Speaker 2: This is actually how democracy was done in the very

1653
01:36:19,720 --> 01:36:21,200
Speaker 2: early days, and.

1654
01:36:21,600 --> 01:36:25,080
Speaker 1: The idea it's what Datokville loved about our democracy. It

1655
01:36:25,160 --> 01:36:27,559
Speaker 1: was how local it was and how engaged we were

1656
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:28,719
Speaker 1: at the township level.

1657
01:36:29,840 --> 01:36:31,840
Speaker 2: And I think it's gonna be even more important as

1658
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:36,360
Speaker 2: our information ecosystem is transformed and in many ways polluted

1659
01:36:36,360 --> 01:36:39,800
Speaker 2: and distorted by artificial intelligence. How do we protect the

1660
01:36:39,840 --> 01:36:41,960
Speaker 2: spaces in which democracy can be done.

1661
01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 1: So mean, this intrigues me is who's trying this? Any

1662
01:36:47,479 --> 01:36:48,840
Speaker 1: community out there trying this?

1663
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:52,080
Speaker 2: There are local communities in fact here in Montrose, Colorado

1664
01:36:52,760 --> 01:36:56,880
Speaker 2: and for Collins have done citizen assemblies there have been.

1665
01:36:56,960 --> 01:36:58,960
Speaker 1: How does it work? Give me an example of how

1666
01:36:58,960 --> 01:37:02,439
Speaker 1: the citizen assembly work. Poor columns especially.

1667
01:37:03,240 --> 01:37:06,719
Speaker 2: People will approach in different ways. The sort of ideal

1668
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:09,439
Speaker 2: way is a process of what they call sortition, which

1669
01:37:09,479 --> 01:37:15,000
Speaker 2: is random selection of citizens. They are incentivized for participation,

1670
01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:17,479
Speaker 2: like compensated for their time, but they might meet a

1671
01:37:17,479 --> 01:37:19,479
Speaker 2: few times on a weekend over the course of a

1672
01:37:19,479 --> 01:37:23,320
Speaker 2: few weeks. They're presented with information and arguments from different

1673
01:37:23,360 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 2: perspectives on an issue, and then they deliberate in a

1674
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 2: facilitated way together to render a particular you know, recommendation

1675
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:33,879
Speaker 2: or perspective that then say, goes to the city council

1676
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:39,960
Speaker 2: and so binding. No, although it could be set up

1677
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:41,880
Speaker 2: in a binding way, but right now many of the

1678
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:44,960
Speaker 2: ones that are being done are advisory, you know in nature.

1679
01:37:46,120 --> 01:37:48,920
Speaker 2: I think there are interesting ways in which may be

1680
01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:52,680
Speaker 2: integrated into the citizen initiative process itself. We can use

1681
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:54,840
Speaker 2: CITIS assemblies to determine what gets to go to the ballot.

1682
01:37:54,880 --> 01:37:57,599
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's an improvement in what direct

1683
01:37:57,600 --> 01:38:00,880
Speaker 2: democracy you know, can look like. So I'd say like

1684
01:38:01,160 --> 01:38:03,880
Speaker 2: over the next decade plus, there's going to be needs

1685
01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:07,160
Speaker 2: to reimagine what democracy looks like. I mean, we're coming

1686
01:38:07,200 --> 01:38:10,879
Speaker 2: up on our two hundred and fiftieth anniversary as a country.

1687
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:15,320
Speaker 2: We've gotten here. I think by continuing to look at

1688
01:38:15,360 --> 01:38:18,360
Speaker 2: and innovate and improve the way that we can self

1689
01:38:18,400 --> 01:38:20,799
Speaker 2: govern and we need to be responsive to the times.

1690
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:24,360
Speaker 2: And so whether it's these election reforms or citizen assemblies,

1691
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:27,080
Speaker 2: the idea is that we need to keep democracy fresh

1692
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:27,920
Speaker 2: to keep it working.

1693
01:38:28,560 --> 01:38:32,360
Speaker 1: I'll tell you I would. I would. I've always thought

1694
01:38:32,360 --> 01:38:34,400
Speaker 1: about this, and you know, I joke that if you

1695
01:38:34,479 --> 01:38:36,439
Speaker 1: live in the state of New Hampshire for more than

1696
01:38:36,479 --> 01:38:38,000
Speaker 1: ten years, you're going to end up in the state

1697
01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:40,120
Speaker 1: legislature at some point when you have a four hundred

1698
01:38:40,120 --> 01:38:44,360
Speaker 1: members state House. But I used to think, what if

1699
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:48,360
Speaker 1: that were just a four hundred random people that were

1700
01:38:48,400 --> 01:38:51,360
Speaker 1: selected to be in the you know, and then you

1701
01:38:51,400 --> 01:38:54,200
Speaker 1: brought them together just like you would a jury, and Okay,

1702
01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:57,519
Speaker 1: this is the legislature. We're going to compensate you for

1703
01:38:57,560 --> 01:39:01,160
Speaker 1: your time. You're the citizen legislature for the leg Any. Look,

1704
01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:03,320
Speaker 1: if you feel like any, you vet them, maybe you

1705
01:39:03,360 --> 01:39:06,320
Speaker 1: know certain people can't serve, and you know whatever, you

1706
01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:12,840
Speaker 1: can come up with some criteria, but compulsory representation is

1707
01:39:12,880 --> 01:39:19,080
Speaker 1: something that I've actually been curious about, where you basically, Okay, yeah,

1708
01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:22,360
Speaker 1: once every twenty years, I got to sit on the

1709
01:39:22,400 --> 01:39:25,720
Speaker 1: city council, you know, once every twenty twenty years, I

1710
01:39:25,760 --> 01:39:28,080
Speaker 1: got to do six months. I got to do six

1711
01:39:28,160 --> 01:39:33,600
Speaker 1: weeks at the state capitol. You know. I think we

1712
01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:36,800
Speaker 1: would get better. I think we would certainly get outcomes

1713
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:40,480
Speaker 1: that were more reflective of the population.

1714
01:39:42,280 --> 01:39:43,960
Speaker 2: I mean, if you put in a poll right now

1715
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:47,280
Speaker 2: and ask most Americans, would you rather keep the five

1716
01:39:47,360 --> 01:39:49,680
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five leaders we currently have in Congress

1717
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:52,640
Speaker 2: or do a lottery and try out something new for

1718
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:54,120
Speaker 2: a couple of years. I'd be interested in how to

1719
01:39:54,120 --> 01:39:56,400
Speaker 2: come back. But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot

1720
01:39:56,400 --> 01:39:58,760
Speaker 2: of people would be open to trying something a bit new.

1721
01:39:58,880 --> 01:40:00,519
Speaker 2: And this model, like you said, it is not a

1722
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:05,000
Speaker 2: foreign concept. Juries make life or death decisions. Surely they

1723
01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:08,599
Speaker 2: are also capable of informing what our marginal tax rate

1724
01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:09,160
Speaker 2: could be.

1725
01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:12,559
Speaker 1: Now you look at it, it feels like there are

1726
01:40:12,600 --> 01:40:14,559
Speaker 1: a couple of rural states that would be more open

1727
01:40:14,600 --> 01:40:18,640
Speaker 1: to trying this first, you know, And it could be

1728
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:22,200
Speaker 1: interesting whether it's a you could see easily see one

1729
01:40:22,240 --> 01:40:24,879
Speaker 1: of the new England states being open to this concept.

1730
01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:28,479
Speaker 1: I mean, the New Hampshire State House can be such

1731
01:40:28,520 --> 01:40:30,439
Speaker 1: a pain in the ass with how many specials, you know,

1732
01:40:30,479 --> 01:40:33,240
Speaker 1: we have foreigner members. There's always somebody who's you know,

1733
01:40:33,439 --> 01:40:35,720
Speaker 1: can't do it, or can't go or this or that.

1734
01:40:37,360 --> 01:40:39,880
Speaker 1: If you told me they transition to something like this

1735
01:40:39,960 --> 01:40:42,680
Speaker 1: in twenty years would shock me.

1736
01:40:43,160 --> 01:40:46,880
Speaker 2: By the way. The pathway that many of these reforms

1737
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:50,759
Speaker 2: take at the state level is through the initiative process,

1738
01:40:50,760 --> 01:40:53,280
Speaker 2: where citizens get to decide this and shape their own

1739
01:40:53,320 --> 01:40:57,800
Speaker 2: government directly, and that process needs to be protected. It

1740
01:40:57,840 --> 01:41:00,760
Speaker 2: is under attack in many states right now by legislatures

1741
01:41:00,760 --> 01:41:03,240
Speaker 2: that are trying to increase the threshold of what it

1742
01:41:03,280 --> 01:41:05,360
Speaker 2: takes to pass the ballot initiative to make it harder

1743
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:09,400
Speaker 2: to qualify. So I think everyone who cares about democracy,

1744
01:41:09,400 --> 01:41:12,400
Speaker 2: and especially in the reform movement, ought to be working

1745
01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:15,519
Speaker 2: together to make sure that we protect and improve the

1746
01:41:15,560 --> 01:41:19,000
Speaker 2: citizen initiative process. There will be initiatives on the ballot

1747
01:41:19,040 --> 01:41:22,920
Speaker 2: next November that will both attempt to make things worse

1748
01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:25,400
Speaker 2: that we need to defeat, and a couple of states

1749
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:29,400
Speaker 2: actually innovating with constitutional protections of the initiative process so

1750
01:41:29,439 --> 01:41:31,599
Speaker 2: that legislatures can't undo them in the future.

1751
01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:35,200
Speaker 1: I scared Jack dan Forth on the idea of a

1752
01:41:35,200 --> 01:41:38,479
Speaker 1: constitutional convention. He fears it that you know that, you

1753
01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:41,280
Speaker 1: know it implies that we're scrapping the Constitution. And he's like,

1754
01:41:41,280 --> 01:41:43,400
Speaker 1: I love our constitution, we just need to amend it.

1755
01:41:43,439 --> 01:41:47,639
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, it's a gathering to basically consider amendments,

1756
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:52,880
Speaker 1: is what I'm what I'm advocating, But not everybody is.

1757
01:41:53,160 --> 01:41:55,880
Speaker 1: There's always when when you throw the idea out there,

1758
01:41:56,479 --> 01:41:58,640
Speaker 1: it's more folks on the left who are skeptical of

1759
01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:01,240
Speaker 1: it these days than folks the right. And in fact,

1760
01:42:01,240 --> 01:42:03,040
Speaker 1: at Clinton won in ninety six, I think it was

1761
01:42:03,080 --> 01:42:05,920
Speaker 1: Greg Abbott at the time as governor of Texas was

1762
01:42:06,439 --> 01:42:11,840
Speaker 1: basically wanting to to lead a movement of states to

1763
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:15,400
Speaker 1: call for a constitutional convention. And you know, had Clinton

1764
01:42:15,439 --> 01:42:17,360
Speaker 1: one in sixteen, that might have been what the right

1765
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:20,840
Speaker 1: would have focused on. It might have been an interesting exercise.

1766
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:24,439
Speaker 1: But you think it would Is that a fool's errand

1767
01:42:24,479 --> 01:42:29,800
Speaker 1: in your mind? Or is it something that whose time

1768
01:42:29,880 --> 01:42:31,760
Speaker 1: might might be now?

1769
01:42:32,800 --> 01:42:36,839
Speaker 2: I think the time was before now for a convention

1770
01:42:37,040 --> 01:42:42,960
Speaker 2: to re examine some of the not principles of our

1771
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:46,680
Speaker 2: constitutional design are checks and balances our separation powers. But

1772
01:42:47,080 --> 01:42:50,160
Speaker 2: the structures, I mean, whether you believe there ought to

1773
01:42:50,200 --> 01:42:52,679
Speaker 2: be an electoral college or not, no one can argue

1774
01:42:52,680 --> 01:42:54,920
Speaker 2: that it's functioning in the way the founders designed it.

1775
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:57,400
Speaker 2: So what does it look like to improve and modernize it.

1776
01:42:57,439 --> 01:42:59,479
Speaker 1: That Well, I got a simple solution to that. Double

1777
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:02,400
Speaker 1: the size. Go back to increasing the size of the

1778
01:43:02,439 --> 01:43:05,479
Speaker 1: House every ten years, and then your electoral college and

1779
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:09,439
Speaker 1: your popular vote will no longer I mean right now

1780
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:13,880
Speaker 1: every four years, the likelihood of a split decision between

1781
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:17,360
Speaker 1: the electoral college and the popular vote is more likely,

1782
01:43:17,439 --> 01:43:21,120
Speaker 1: not less likely, because we have not expanded the numerator

1783
01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:26,840
Speaker 1: of the electoral vote of the electoral college. And if

1784
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:30,200
Speaker 1: we double the size of the House, I promise you

1785
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:32,080
Speaker 1: nobody'd be complaining about the electoral college.

1786
01:43:32,920 --> 01:43:35,960
Speaker 2: As you know, what people fear about a convention? Is

1787
01:43:36,000 --> 01:43:38,879
Speaker 2: it the runaway convention? Will they do something to radically

1788
01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:43,880
Speaker 2: But we're skipped. But those critics forget there's a ratification process. Whatever.

1789
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:46,679
Speaker 2: The practician comes up quite high.

1790
01:43:46,840 --> 01:43:49,880
Speaker 1: Yes, right, you don't fear the voter.

1791
01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:52,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think we should fear it. I think

1792
01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:55,639
Speaker 2: we need to treat it seriously. Be cautious and smart

1793
01:43:55,640 --> 01:43:58,639
Speaker 2: about it and embrace it as a tool the founders

1794
01:43:58,840 --> 01:44:03,280
Speaker 2: gave us to sure that we can continue to endure

1795
01:44:03,280 --> 01:44:06,679
Speaker 2: as a representative republic for centuries to come.

1796
01:44:07,200 --> 01:44:10,120
Speaker 1: Why isn't someone trying to be the leader in convening this.

1797
01:44:11,920 --> 01:44:14,960
Speaker 2: I think that there's this sort of psychological barrier about

1798
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:18,240
Speaker 2: whether constitutional change is possible. It's been what thirty years

1799
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:21,519
Speaker 2: since the last amendment, you know past, But I think

1800
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:27,320
Speaker 2: pressure is going to build, especially because of how if

1801
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:29,960
Speaker 2: power continues to consolidate in the way that it does,

1802
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:33,519
Speaker 2: if the initiative process deteriorates, then the other levers we

1803
01:44:33,600 --> 01:44:36,479
Speaker 2: have to make change become harder, and I think people

1804
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:40,520
Speaker 2: may view this other pathways becoming increasingly necessary.

1805
01:44:41,439 --> 01:44:45,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been I just feel like that the I

1806
01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:50,400
Speaker 1: think that there's agreement with this, but in some ways

1807
01:44:50,439 --> 01:44:52,519
Speaker 1: you have to have a leader right to galvanize people

1808
01:44:52,600 --> 01:44:53,840
Speaker 1: to get there.

1809
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:56,519
Speaker 2: Well, your next project, Chuck.

1810
01:44:56,680 --> 01:44:58,680
Speaker 1: Oh man, We've all got a lot of projects. Right.

1811
01:44:59,479 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 1: Let me get you on this. You ran for office

1812
01:45:01,280 --> 01:45:03,840
Speaker 1: once before, you still have the itch.

1813
01:45:05,439 --> 01:45:08,479
Speaker 2: Not under today's party primary system. I can tell you that.

1814
01:45:08,439 --> 01:45:11,640
Speaker 1: No, you live in Colorado, it's the least partisan or

1815
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:15,000
Speaker 1: the least primary impact. I mean, certainly primaries have some

1816
01:45:15,680 --> 01:45:18,519
Speaker 1: certainly or but it's less so, right.

1817
01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:22,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Although I think Colorado is heading in the direction

1818
01:45:22,240 --> 01:45:24,519
Speaker 2: of many other places where the primary sism is causing

1819
01:45:24,520 --> 01:45:26,880
Speaker 2: our state to become a lot more partisan. It's one

1820
01:45:26,880 --> 01:45:28,200
Speaker 2: of the states that we can tine to work on

1821
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:31,280
Speaker 2: for form. But we'll say having had the experience of

1822
01:45:31,400 --> 01:45:35,120
Speaker 2: running for office early on was good in being grounded

1823
01:45:35,200 --> 01:45:38,320
Speaker 2: and how voters actually think about democracy and elections, not

1824
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:42,080
Speaker 2: just an academic perspective on this. And I feel grateful

1825
01:45:42,120 --> 01:45:43,560
Speaker 2: to be in a role right now to make the

1826
01:45:43,600 --> 01:45:46,880
Speaker 2: biggest impact I can that can impact how people who

1827
01:45:46,960 --> 01:45:49,759
Speaker 2: runs and how they govern and at scale.

1828
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:52,160
Speaker 1: You ran as an independent, So let me get you

1829
01:45:52,160 --> 01:45:55,599
Speaker 1: out of here actually on this topic, which is what

1830
01:45:55,640 --> 01:45:57,840
Speaker 1: do you think Mike Duggan is running into right now?

1831
01:45:57,880 --> 01:46:02,280
Speaker 1: Running is independent in Michigan? That he expect that you

1832
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:03,960
Speaker 1: would have been able to tell him how he asked

1833
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:07,519
Speaker 1: you that, Oh yeah, this is how many voters view

1834
01:46:08,040 --> 01:46:09,559
Speaker 1: third party candidates are independent.

1835
01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:12,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, be wary of the early polls that show voters

1836
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:16,000
Speaker 2: would like the idea of an independent.

1837
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:18,320
Speaker 1: And looks really good at first, doesn't it exactly?

1838
01:46:18,360 --> 01:46:20,760
Speaker 2: But I think the most important thing for any independent

1839
01:46:20,960 --> 01:46:24,320
Speaker 2: is to achieve escape velocity, which is to say, you

1840
01:46:24,439 --> 01:46:26,799
Speaker 2: have to be able to prove that you are viable

1841
01:46:27,200 --> 01:46:29,760
Speaker 2: before voters really start paying attention and ask if you

1842
01:46:29,840 --> 01:46:33,559
Speaker 2: are and that happens well before election day. So unlike

1843
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:36,280
Speaker 2: the traditional playbook where you spend most of your resources

1844
01:46:36,640 --> 01:46:39,759
Speaker 2: in the last ninety days, you know your November election

1845
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:42,519
Speaker 2: is actually months earlier because you have to be interesting

1846
01:46:42,800 --> 01:46:43,720
Speaker 2: that you can be a.

1847
01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:47,200
Speaker 1: What does that look like being showing up in the

1848
01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:50,240
Speaker 1: conventional places that other candidates do? Is it money? What

1849
01:46:51,040 --> 01:46:56,320
Speaker 1: is it that you think? And I know this is

1850
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:58,760
Speaker 1: a bit subjective, but generally, what do you think that

1851
01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:03,200
Speaker 1: voters are looking for to decide, oh, you're legitimate.

1852
01:47:03,560 --> 01:47:05,439
Speaker 2: I think in the past, the houristic would be like

1853
01:47:05,479 --> 01:47:08,920
Speaker 2: traditional media coverage, the press taking you seriously when you

1854
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:10,760
Speaker 2: get a debetia are you as the what are you

1855
01:47:10,800 --> 01:47:14,000
Speaker 2: pulling at? But today I think that's changing because the

1856
01:47:14,040 --> 01:47:16,519
Speaker 2: metric that probably matters most in our politics is attention.

1857
01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:18,680
Speaker 2: Are you getting attention? Am I hearing from you? Are

1858
01:47:18,680 --> 01:47:21,400
Speaker 2: you breaking through? I think that works in the favor

1859
01:47:21,400 --> 01:47:23,719
Speaker 2: of independent candidates the extent that there are a fewer

1860
01:47:23,840 --> 01:47:27,200
Speaker 2: gatekeepers that are saying, whether you're credible or not, but

1861
01:47:27,280 --> 01:47:30,400
Speaker 2: you can reach voters directly in a more democratized way

1862
01:47:30,400 --> 01:47:32,360
Speaker 2: than ever has been the case. I'm hoping that we

1863
01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:35,760
Speaker 2: might see a couple of these candidates actually break through

1864
01:47:35,840 --> 01:47:38,720
Speaker 2: what has been that glass ceiling and then show that

1865
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:39,439
Speaker 2: it's possible.

1866
01:47:41,320 --> 01:47:44,240
Speaker 1: Nick Treada, you always give me a little more. Hope

1867
01:47:44,400 --> 01:47:46,439
Speaker 1: your your glasses have full on this.

1868
01:47:46,400 --> 01:47:49,519
Speaker 2: Reform movement, aren't you yntinue to stick there? There's no

1869
01:47:49,560 --> 01:47:52,080
Speaker 2: other choice, so let's get it done.

1870
01:47:52,360 --> 01:47:56,200
Speaker 1: Right, There's only forward, right, there's there's my friends at

1871
01:47:56,439 --> 01:47:59,120
Speaker 1: a certain third party like to say, you know, we

1872
01:47:59,200 --> 01:48:01,920
Speaker 1: only have one choice. You have to move forward. Thank you,

1873
01:48:02,000 --> 01:48:12,479
Speaker 1: Jo great stock with me. Well, I hope you enjoyed

1874
01:48:12,479 --> 01:48:15,080
Speaker 1: that conversation. Look, I don't care where you are, left,

1875
01:48:15,120 --> 01:48:20,240
Speaker 1: right or center. It doesn't make sense for our our

1876
01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:25,479
Speaker 1: our democracy to somehow lock people out of our You know,

1877
01:48:25,840 --> 01:48:27,479
Speaker 1: we don't know where we live, We don't know whether

1878
01:48:27,520 --> 01:48:30,680
Speaker 1: we're going to have a Republican in charge or a

1879
01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:33,680
Speaker 1: Democratic Democrat in charge. We should have us say and

1880
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:37,240
Speaker 1: who gets into these general elections across the board. It

1881
01:48:37,320 --> 01:48:40,800
Speaker 1: is odd to me that we have just accepted this

1882
01:48:40,920 --> 01:48:43,800
Speaker 1: premise that you have to join a private organization in

1883
01:48:43,880 --> 01:48:47,400
Speaker 1: order to participate in many states in a taxpayer funded election.

1884
01:48:49,479 --> 01:48:51,719
Speaker 1: We need some We need some better lawyering out there

1885
01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:54,960
Speaker 1: on this front, all right, We need some better lawyering, because,

1886
01:48:55,120 --> 01:48:57,840
Speaker 1: trust me, there's a lot of equal protection arguments that

1887
01:48:57,960 --> 01:49:01,160
Speaker 1: I think should be made on this front. All right,

1888
01:49:01,760 --> 01:49:11,599
Speaker 1: it's time to jump into the time machine. We're going

1889
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:16,160
Speaker 1: to go back to December seventeenth, nineteen eighty nine, a

1890
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:19,920
Speaker 1: young Chuck Todd was a senior in high school. In

1891
01:49:19,920 --> 01:49:22,599
Speaker 1: case you were wondering what I was doing, December seventeenth,

1892
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:29,240
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, it was the debut of an animated

1893
01:49:29,520 --> 01:49:36,200
Speaker 1: series for adults called The Simpsons. And who knew what

1894
01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:39,360
Speaker 1: kind of impact is? I would argue, bigger than Saturday

1895
01:49:39,439 --> 01:49:44,120
Speaker 1: Night Live, Bigger than Meet the Press, right, sort of

1896
01:49:43,160 --> 01:49:49,080
Speaker 1: the launch Sunday Affairs conversations, right in some ways before

1897
01:49:49,400 --> 01:49:51,439
Speaker 1: it was the first place you ever had back and

1898
01:49:51,479 --> 01:49:56,000
Speaker 1: forth on politics in a first radio and televised arena.

1899
01:49:56,479 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 1: We had Saturday Night Live sort of the king of parody,

1900
01:49:59,439 --> 01:50:02,200
Speaker 1: and then there the Simpsons. And in some ways the

1901
01:50:02,240 --> 01:50:08,479
Speaker 1: Simpsons are probably is important of a participant into the

1902
01:50:08,680 --> 01:50:13,960
Speaker 1: changing ways that we satirized politics than any other program

1903
01:50:14,000 --> 01:50:16,920
Speaker 1: that has been launched in the last in the history

1904
01:50:16,960 --> 01:50:20,040
Speaker 1: of television. So that's the subject of my time machine

1905
01:50:21,960 --> 01:50:24,720
Speaker 1: history lesson of the Day. How the Simpsons rewired politics,

1906
01:50:24,760 --> 01:50:29,960
Speaker 1: media and animation. And it all started December seventeen, nineteen

1907
01:50:30,000 --> 01:50:32,880
Speaker 1: eighty nine. It was a Christmas special. I remember it

1908
01:50:32,960 --> 01:50:35,600
Speaker 1: was a short on The Tracy Omens Show back in

1909
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:38,760
Speaker 1: the day, but this Christmas special aired on Fox and

1910
01:50:38,760 --> 01:50:41,679
Speaker 1: it looked loud, rough and kind of disposable. Right, thirty

1911
01:50:41,680 --> 01:50:45,439
Speaker 1: five years later, that cartoon hasn't just outlasted its peers,

1912
01:50:45,520 --> 01:50:49,880
Speaker 1: it's outlasted entire media eras Right. The Simpsons didn't just

1913
01:50:49,960 --> 01:50:54,599
Speaker 1: mock American politics, that's easy. What they did is they

1914
01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:58,760
Speaker 1: reshaped Americans understand power, persuasion, and performance, and in the

1915
01:50:58,800 --> 01:51:05,439
Speaker 1: process they what animation itself can be. And what I

1916
01:51:05,479 --> 01:51:07,880
Speaker 1: loved about what the Simpsons did is they did it look.

1917
01:51:08,520 --> 01:51:12,519
Speaker 1: Was there a social socially liberal lean to the show, sure,

1918
01:51:13,360 --> 01:51:16,680
Speaker 1: but it was not necessarily a liberal show or a

1919
01:51:16,720 --> 01:51:20,840
Speaker 1: conservative show. In many ways, really mocked process and it

1920
01:51:20,920 --> 01:51:26,480
Speaker 1: was really good at surfacing hypocrisy and surfacing the absurdity

1921
01:51:27,040 --> 01:51:30,040
Speaker 1: of the professionalization of politics, and in fact one of

1922
01:51:30,080 --> 01:51:31,680
Speaker 1: the early ways they did it. And I want to

1923
01:51:31,760 --> 01:51:33,920
Speaker 1: pop through a few shows that I think where they

1924
01:51:34,479 --> 01:51:36,960
Speaker 1: really were brilliant and what they did. And when you

1925
01:51:37,000 --> 01:51:38,760
Speaker 1: watch these shows today, you're think, oh, I've seen this

1926
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:41,160
Speaker 1: in other places, But at the time, nobody had ever

1927
01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:44,280
Speaker 1: done this before. So Burns for Governor. When Moni Burns

1928
01:51:44,360 --> 01:51:49,719
Speaker 1: ran for governor, the Simpsons showcased in the pop culture

1929
01:51:49,760 --> 01:51:53,519
Speaker 1: area that something that we political reporters already knew, we

1930
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:56,880
Speaker 1: political junkies already knew that campaigns were a business. The

1931
01:51:56,960 --> 01:51:59,120
Speaker 1: episode two cars in every garage and three eyes on

1932
01:51:59,160 --> 01:52:01,920
Speaker 1: every fish, burn earns he doesn't just run for governor

1933
01:52:02,120 --> 01:52:05,760
Speaker 1: because he believes in anything. He runs because regulation threatens him.

1934
01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:07,759
Speaker 1: That's why he decides he wants to run for office.

1935
01:52:07,840 --> 01:52:10,799
Speaker 1: The telling moment isn't the mutant fish. It's when Burns

1936
01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:14,240
Speaker 1: instructs Smithers to assemble a campaign operation the way a

1937
01:52:14,360 --> 01:52:18,160
Speaker 1: CEO would assemble a management team. And so for the

1938
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:20,960
Speaker 1: wider world, they understood, give me a pollster, a media handler,

1939
01:52:20,960 --> 01:52:25,200
Speaker 1: speech writer, an image consultant, and the episode showcase that

1940
01:52:25,240 --> 01:52:29,599
Speaker 1: Burns understood something essential. Campaigns aren't moral arguments. They're simply

1941
01:52:29,640 --> 01:52:33,600
Speaker 1: logistical ones. Now he loses not because voters rejected his policies,

1942
01:52:33,720 --> 01:52:38,040
Speaker 1: but because he fails to convincingly perform as a relatable figure. Right,

1943
01:52:38,040 --> 01:52:41,839
Speaker 1: he won't eat the fish. It's a lesson that campaigns

1944
01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:45,639
Speaker 1: still learn relearn every cycle. Another episode that I thought

1945
01:52:45,640 --> 01:52:47,439
Speaker 1: did a good job at sort of mocking government and

1946
01:52:47,479 --> 01:52:50,960
Speaker 1: politics the monorail episode and the use of Broadway to

1947
01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:55,479
Speaker 1: explain infrastructure failure. The episode Marge versus the Monoail endures

1948
01:52:55,479 --> 01:52:58,519
Speaker 1: because it understands persuasion better than most policy memos do.

1949
01:52:58,880 --> 01:53:01,320
Speaker 1: The episode is a deliberate homage to the music band

1950
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:06,360
Speaker 1: Monorel Monreel. Sorry Lyle Lanley is Harold Hill selling civic

1951
01:53:06,400 --> 01:53:09,960
Speaker 1: fantasy through charming song. Well, the Monorail isn't about transportation,

1952
01:53:10,280 --> 01:53:13,559
Speaker 1: it was simply about identity. Springfield doesn't choose the mono

1953
01:53:13,640 --> 01:53:16,240
Speaker 1: rail because it's efficient. I don't think they really needed one.

1954
01:53:16,400 --> 01:53:18,960
Speaker 1: They choose it because it made them feel important. That's

1955
01:53:19,000 --> 01:53:21,040
Speaker 1: how it was sold to them. In some ways, what

1956
01:53:21,120 --> 01:53:23,559
Speaker 1: it was mocking were all the smaller cities that were

1957
01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:27,840
Speaker 1: getting talked into debt financing arenas and other sort of

1958
01:53:28,960 --> 01:53:34,640
Speaker 1: supposedly public arenas or entertainment complexes or concert halls, but

1959
01:53:34,680 --> 01:53:37,880
Speaker 1: they were really about just helping a private entity make money.

1960
01:53:38,560 --> 01:53:41,240
Speaker 1: The episode's genius, in some ways was showing that democracy

1961
01:53:41,280 --> 01:53:46,760
Speaker 1: can be overwhelmed by spectacle, not ignorance, and mister and

1962
01:53:47,120 --> 01:53:49,720
Speaker 1: mister Lisa goes to Washington. It remained one of the

1963
01:53:49,720 --> 01:53:52,800
Speaker 1: smarter portrayals of civic education that we've had on television.

1964
01:53:53,040 --> 01:53:56,040
Speaker 1: Lisa's faith in democracy is shaken, but it's not destroyed.

1965
01:53:56,479 --> 01:54:02,160
Speaker 1: The system works barely because exposure still has power. Sometimes

1966
01:54:02,640 --> 01:54:05,120
Speaker 1: the episode frequently is cited an academic work, believe it

1967
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:09,280
Speaker 1: or not, because it models critical citizenship skepticism without disengagement.

1968
01:54:09,320 --> 01:54:10,680
Speaker 1: It goes back to the essay I had at the

1969
01:54:10,720 --> 01:54:13,640
Speaker 1: beginning of this episode, right, don't give up. Even when

1970
01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:15,640
Speaker 1: you think the system is rigged and it's messy and

1971
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:18,880
Speaker 1: it's ugly, there are still ways that you can make

1972
01:54:18,920 --> 01:54:22,200
Speaker 1: the system work. Then, of course, there was sideshow Bob

1973
01:54:22,280 --> 01:54:26,679
Speaker 1: Roberts good homage to that mockumentary back in the day.

1974
01:54:27,040 --> 01:54:29,719
Speaker 1: That show went further side show Bob riggs an election,

1975
01:54:30,120 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 1: it's revealed and he wins. Anyway, sound familiar. Episode predicts

1976
01:54:35,320 --> 01:54:42,240
Speaker 1: scandal fatigue, the idea that information alone no longer guarantees accountability. Unfortunately,

1977
01:54:42,400 --> 01:54:44,680
Speaker 1: that was something that I think when people watched it

1978
01:54:44,720 --> 01:54:48,080
Speaker 1: at the time. Oh no, that wouldn't really happen. Let's

1979
01:54:48,120 --> 01:54:52,080
Speaker 1: just say the episode has aged uncomfortably well. Trash of

1980
01:54:52,120 --> 01:54:55,800
Speaker 1: the Titans populism, deferred costs, or moral hatcher. Trash of

1981
01:54:55,800 --> 01:54:59,560
Speaker 1: the Titans is local politics done brutally right. Homer runs

1982
01:54:59,560 --> 01:55:04,520
Speaker 1: for Senate Commissioner, promising more services, less effort, and no responsibility.

1983
01:55:04,520 --> 01:55:08,960
Speaker 1: His slogan, can't someone else do it? It isn't laziness,

1984
01:55:09,040 --> 01:55:12,720
Speaker 1: it is actually resentment. Once elected, Homer delivers exactly what

1985
01:55:12,760 --> 01:55:15,240
Speaker 1: he promised, and the system collapses under the weight of

1986
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:18,520
Speaker 1: deferred costs. Right, the most revealing moment isn't the failure,

1987
01:55:18,800 --> 01:55:22,560
Speaker 1: it's the response. Springfield exports its garbage to another town.

1988
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:26,560
Speaker 1: The episode captures a timeless political truth. When costs are

1989
01:55:26,560 --> 01:55:33,760
Speaker 1: delayed or displaced, accountability totally evaporates. Look, it was. One

1990
01:55:33,760 --> 01:55:38,160
Speaker 1: thing about The Simpsons is after a while their success

1991
01:55:38,400 --> 01:55:43,160
Speaker 1: at mocking actually made it where politicians wanted to be

1992
01:55:43,240 --> 01:55:46,320
Speaker 1: seen as on the side of the Simpsons, that on

1993
01:55:46,440 --> 01:55:49,160
Speaker 1: the side of the reasonable people, that they weren't the

1994
01:55:49,200 --> 01:55:52,120
Speaker 1: crazy runs. And you've had all sorts of people who

1995
01:55:52,120 --> 01:55:56,920
Speaker 1: have participate let their voice. Barack Obama, I think Joe

1996
01:55:56,920 --> 01:56:01,080
Speaker 1: Biden did once Outdore Rush Limbaugh, did I believe you've

1997
01:56:01,120 --> 01:56:05,600
Speaker 1: had The George hw Bush episode when he moves across

1998
01:56:05,600 --> 01:56:08,760
Speaker 1: the street from Homer is really well done and it

1999
01:56:08,840 --> 01:56:12,680
Speaker 1: is almost, in some ways an homage hw Bush. So

2000
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:16,760
Speaker 1: it is. It was proof and certainly plenty of media

2001
01:56:16,760 --> 01:56:21,080
Speaker 1: figures participated over the years Springfield became a legitimate public square. Then,

2002
01:56:21,120 --> 01:56:23,440
Speaker 1: of course there's the impact that the Simpsons had on

2003
01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:26,480
Speaker 1: what we all watched today. Right. I know, I'm a

2004
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:29,560
Speaker 1: fan of a lot of adult animation these days, and

2005
01:56:29,680 --> 01:56:31,960
Speaker 1: we have the Simpsons to thank, right, think about it,

2006
01:56:32,000 --> 01:56:36,640
Speaker 1: Before the Simpsons animation in America simply meant kids. After

2007
01:56:36,680 --> 01:56:41,000
Speaker 1: the Simpsons animation meant tone and not age, right, And

2008
01:56:41,040 --> 01:56:43,280
Speaker 1: what we all figured out was it was easier to

2009
01:56:43,280 --> 01:56:45,920
Speaker 1: see an animated figure tell us an uncomfortable truth that

2010
01:56:46,040 --> 01:56:49,480
Speaker 1: a real person telling us an uncomfortable truth. Right. Without

2011
01:56:49,480 --> 01:56:51,160
Speaker 1: the Simpsons, we wouldn't have had King of the Hill,

2012
01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:57,680
Speaker 1: South Park, Family, Guy, Futurama, Archer, BoJack, Horseman, Rick and Morty.

2013
01:56:57,880 --> 01:56:59,840
Speaker 1: I know I'm leaving a bunch out. You want to

2014
01:56:59,840 --> 01:57:02,160
Speaker 1: tell me your favorite you want to tell me what

2015
01:57:02,240 --> 01:57:05,840
Speaker 1: you think the Simpsons did to impact political culture. I'd

2016
01:57:05,880 --> 01:57:07,800
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. And then, of course, there's

2017
01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:10,600
Speaker 1: one of my favorite homages to the Simpsons. Two thousand

2018
01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:13,720
Speaker 1: and two, South Park aired an entire episode that might

2019
01:57:13,760 --> 01:57:15,480
Speaker 1: be the most honest tribute of them all. It was

2020
01:57:15,480 --> 01:57:18,720
Speaker 1: called Simpsons Did It. And the premise was simple. Every

2021
01:57:18,720 --> 01:57:20,600
Speaker 1: idea of the South Park writers were trying to come

2022
01:57:20,680 --> 01:57:23,640
Speaker 1: up with had already been done by the Simpsons. And

2023
01:57:24,080 --> 01:57:26,360
Speaker 1: the whole punchline of the episode is over and over

2024
01:57:26,360 --> 01:57:29,360
Speaker 1: again character shout out Simpsons did It. It wasn't being

2025
01:57:29,400 --> 01:57:32,520
Speaker 1: a mockery, it was simply acknowledgment. It was clear our

2026
01:57:32,560 --> 01:57:34,680
Speaker 1: friends at South Park probably had writer's block that week,

2027
01:57:34,800 --> 01:57:36,800
Speaker 1: and it may be why they went to decide to

2028
01:57:36,840 --> 01:57:40,880
Speaker 1: just stick to parroting in the moment stuff on that front.

2029
01:57:41,040 --> 01:57:44,880
Speaker 1: But that episode captured something every creator understands. The Simpsons

2030
01:57:44,920 --> 01:57:49,000
Speaker 1: didn't just open the door. They mapped the room right

2031
01:57:49,080 --> 01:57:52,200
Speaker 1: and they and they allowed so many other creators to

2032
01:57:52,240 --> 01:57:54,480
Speaker 1: come in and have their own version of this in

2033
01:57:54,520 --> 01:57:57,880
Speaker 1: their own take an entire generation of writers to find

2034
01:57:57,880 --> 01:58:01,920
Speaker 1: the boundaries of what animated storytelling could do politically, culturally,

2035
01:58:02,320 --> 01:58:07,040
Speaker 1: and emotionally. So the Simpsons still kicking. They didn't just

2036
01:58:07,080 --> 01:58:11,440
Speaker 1: survive history, They've explained it. They taught audiences how to

2037
01:58:11,520 --> 01:58:17,560
Speaker 1: spot performative leadership, civic spectacle, deferred accountability, media driven politics,

2038
01:58:17,800 --> 01:58:19,920
Speaker 1: and they did it while teaching animation how to grow up.

2039
01:58:20,720 --> 01:58:23,640
Speaker 1: So that's why the show still matters. And somewhere creator

2040
01:58:23,680 --> 01:58:26,560
Speaker 1: is still pitching an idea, only to hear a familiar

2041
01:58:26,600 --> 01:58:29,560
Speaker 1: voice in the room say, Simpsons did it? All right,

2042
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:36,200
Speaker 1: let's get into a little ask Chuck, Ask Chuck. We're

2043
01:58:36,240 --> 01:58:38,800
Speaker 1: going to do. Here's my promise to you. Some of

2044
01:58:38,800 --> 01:58:41,080
Speaker 1: you probably been wondering, Hey, I threw a question in

2045
01:58:41,080 --> 01:58:42,800
Speaker 1: here a while ago. How come you haven't dealt with it?

2046
01:58:42,840 --> 01:58:44,800
Speaker 1: I thought it was a pretty good question. Well, I'm

2047
01:58:44,800 --> 01:58:49,520
Speaker 1: going to have an entire episode where I'm just answering

2048
01:58:49,920 --> 01:58:52,840
Speaker 1: questions and trying to play catch up a little bit.

2049
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:57,000
Speaker 1: That'll happen in a couple of weeks. And yes, if

2050
01:58:57,040 --> 01:58:58,919
Speaker 1: you want to chalk it up to oh, it's the holidays,

2051
01:58:58,960 --> 01:59:01,760
Speaker 1: but yes, okay, it's going to be new content. I

2052
01:59:01,840 --> 01:59:04,840
Speaker 1: promise it is not. It is not me just trying

2053
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:07,680
Speaker 1: to well, it is me trying to have a couple

2054
01:59:07,680 --> 01:59:09,520
Speaker 1: of days off. I'm not going to lie about that,

2055
01:59:09,680 --> 01:59:12,200
Speaker 1: but it will be timely and it will be useful,

2056
01:59:12,280 --> 01:59:14,560
Speaker 1: I promise. But let me get in here. Get three

2057
01:59:14,640 --> 01:59:16,400
Speaker 1: or four questions in the here. First one comes from

2058
01:59:16,680 --> 01:59:19,400
Speaker 1: Tiffany and she writes, did Adam Schiff hurt or help

2059
01:59:19,440 --> 01:59:22,120
Speaker 1: Mandela Barnes by endorsing him for Wisconsin Governor? I live

2060
01:59:22,120 --> 01:59:24,480
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin. I have voted Republican until twenty eighteen. I

2061
01:59:24,480 --> 01:59:26,280
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of people like me politically

2062
01:59:26,320 --> 01:59:28,560
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin. I don't know that anyone in Wisconsin will

2063
01:59:28,560 --> 01:59:32,280
Speaker 1: appreciate endorsement from California. Also, recent history shows that big

2064
01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:34,840
Speaker 1: endorsements from the Republican Party fail in Wisconsin. It seems

2065
01:59:34,840 --> 01:59:36,320
Speaker 1: a little out of touch for the Democrats to do

2066
01:59:36,320 --> 01:59:39,240
Speaker 1: big endorsements like this, thoughts, thank you Tiffany well Tifically,

2067
01:59:39,280 --> 01:59:43,600
Speaker 1: There's one simple reason why an Adam why a Mandela

2068
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:48,440
Speaker 1: Barnes would consider an Adam Schiff endorsement meaningful or helpful

2069
01:59:48,480 --> 01:59:50,840
Speaker 1: to him, and that is that Adam Schiff has one

2070
01:59:50,880 --> 02:00:00,760
Speaker 1: of the most lucrative emailress of fundraising lists in the country. One,

2071
02:00:00,800 --> 02:00:03,560
Speaker 1: he's from the largest state, particularly the largest liberal state,

2072
02:00:03,600 --> 02:00:07,680
Speaker 1: in California. Two by being the face of impeachment, he

2073
02:00:07,760 --> 02:00:12,320
Speaker 1: build a massive donor list, then being attacked by Donald

2074
02:00:12,320 --> 02:00:15,920
Speaker 1: Trump constantly has only served to make that donor list

2075
02:00:16,240 --> 02:00:20,480
Speaker 1: more active, more viable. So you are right. I don't

2076
02:00:20,520 --> 02:00:23,920
Speaker 1: think anybody, any Wisconsin voter is going to be moved

2077
02:00:23,920 --> 02:00:27,440
Speaker 1: by the endorsement. And if Mandela Barnes actually puts uses

2078
02:00:27,440 --> 02:00:30,440
Speaker 1: Adam Shift's endorsement and paid media, he'd be a fool.

2079
02:00:31,040 --> 02:00:32,680
Speaker 1: No offense to Adam Shift. But I don't think any

2080
02:00:32,680 --> 02:00:35,360
Speaker 1: make cares. I think you're absolutely right. But if you're

2081
02:00:35,400 --> 02:00:41,320
Speaker 1: wondering why why does this endorsement mean something to Mandela

2082
02:00:41,400 --> 02:00:44,160
Speaker 1: Barnes to Ching to Ching to Ching to Jing. It

2083
02:00:44,280 --> 02:00:47,640
Speaker 1: is access to that email list, That's what it is.

2084
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:56,440
Speaker 1: And Adam Shift probably only only president Presidential nominees probably

2085
02:00:56,480 --> 02:00:59,760
Speaker 1: have bigger and more interesting level like Kamala Harris's list

2086
02:01:00,160 --> 02:01:01,840
Speaker 1: that she controls was going to be a good one,

2087
02:01:01,840 --> 02:01:06,560
Speaker 1: but Adam Shift is probably the single best left leaning

2088
02:01:06,760 --> 02:01:11,160
Speaker 1: fundraising list in America. That is not that for somebody

2089
02:01:11,200 --> 02:01:15,320
Speaker 1: who never ran for president. He's just all the ingredients

2090
02:01:15,320 --> 02:01:17,720
Speaker 1: are there, the impeachment, the attacks from Trump's and being

2091
02:01:17,720 --> 02:01:20,800
Speaker 1: from California, you throw all that in there. That was

2092
02:01:20,880 --> 02:01:25,640
Speaker 1: why Mandela Barnes wanted that endorsement, and why the endorsement

2093
02:01:25,720 --> 02:01:28,400
Speaker 1: matters to him. It is not intended to try to

2094
02:01:28,400 --> 02:01:30,560
Speaker 1: persuade you, and in fact, it sounds like that that

2095
02:01:30,600 --> 02:01:33,080
Speaker 1: stuff might actually dissuade you. And I think in some

2096
02:01:33,160 --> 02:01:35,640
Speaker 1: ways some of these endorse I don't think. I don't

2097
02:01:35,640 --> 02:01:38,400
Speaker 1: think endorsements matter unless they bring you something else. And

2098
02:01:38,440 --> 02:01:40,720
Speaker 1: in this case, what he's looking for is just access

2099
02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:44,080
Speaker 1: to grassroots dollars, and Adam Shift probably has the single

2100
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:46,440
Speaker 1: best fundraising list there is. Alright, let me go to

2101
02:01:46,520 --> 02:01:49,200
Speaker 1: next question comes from Max w Hey, Chuck and Chris

2102
02:01:49,320 --> 02:01:52,840
Speaker 1: ah Hey, Solissa, you're not answering your mail bag, so

2103
02:01:52,880 --> 02:01:57,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to answer your leftovers here. Max w. Rights,

2104
02:01:57,520 --> 02:01:59,400
Speaker 1: I posted this as a comment for Chris Silia's mail

2105
02:01:59,440 --> 02:02:01,080
Speaker 1: bag already, but I want to suggest again what I

2106
02:02:01,120 --> 02:02:04,000
Speaker 1: think is a great wager. Oh on the Aggies versus

2107
02:02:04,040 --> 02:02:07,280
Speaker 1: Kane's matchup, loser shaves his head. Why are we doing this?

2108
02:02:07,400 --> 02:02:09,920
Speaker 1: No shaving of heads or goatee's or anything like this,

2109
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:13,080
Speaker 1: But okay, let me listen, he goes. It's don monetary

2110
02:02:13,120 --> 02:02:15,400
Speaker 1: demonstrates actual commitment to the schools you both support. I've

2111
02:02:15,440 --> 02:02:17,680
Speaker 1: made a few loser shaves bets in my day, and

2112
02:02:17,680 --> 02:02:20,160
Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I've never felt more invested in a result.

2113
02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:23,320
Speaker 1: Maybe Reginald could handle the Clippers well if you know,

2114
02:02:23,360 --> 02:02:25,960
Speaker 1: you know, but you'd better get them to him before

2115
02:02:26,080 --> 02:02:29,600
Speaker 1: he hits the Johnny Walker blue things. I will I have.

2116
02:02:30,240 --> 02:02:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm one time let Tapper, Jake Tapper talk me into

2117
02:02:33,200 --> 02:02:39,920
Speaker 1: a This was back Philly's Dodgers Serica twenty thirteen, twenty

2118
02:02:40,040 --> 02:02:43,800
Speaker 1: twelve NLCS, maybe twenty fourteen NLCS. I'm just trying to

2119
02:02:43,800 --> 02:02:47,120
Speaker 1: remember when the Dodgers were, you know, still hadn't quite

2120
02:02:47,360 --> 02:02:51,800
Speaker 1: gotten broken through. They were still still you know, thinking,

2121
02:02:52,400 --> 02:02:54,640
Speaker 1: you know, they were still believing Matt Kemp was the

2122
02:02:54,640 --> 02:02:56,960
Speaker 1: best player they could sign. Right. They weren't quite the

2123
02:02:57,000 --> 02:03:01,080
Speaker 1: Dodgers yet. They hadn't been big the juggernaut that they

2124
02:03:01,080 --> 02:03:04,040
Speaker 1: had become. And the Phillies were pretty good juggernaut that

2125
02:03:04,080 --> 02:03:07,320
Speaker 1: team that was the sort of the last gasp of

2126
02:03:07,400 --> 02:03:14,000
Speaker 1: Ryan Howard in that crowd. And Tapper wanted to create

2127
02:03:14,000 --> 02:03:17,040
Speaker 1: some social media fun and he wanted to make it

2128
02:03:17,280 --> 02:03:18,520
Speaker 1: he was going to grow and I was going to

2129
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:21,720
Speaker 1: shave one. I never agreed to the bet, but he

2130
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:26,040
Speaker 1: tried to social media bully me about it anyway, So

2131
02:03:26,200 --> 02:03:31,240
Speaker 1: no I I lost and made a nice sizeable contribution

2132
02:03:31,760 --> 02:03:37,440
Speaker 1: to the charity of his choice. Look now, I will

2133
02:03:37,480 --> 02:03:42,280
Speaker 1: say this, I'm probably more comfortable trying to shave my

2134
02:03:42,320 --> 02:03:43,960
Speaker 1: head now that I would have been ten years ago,

2135
02:03:44,000 --> 02:03:47,440
Speaker 1: because as you could see, it is thinning, and maybe

2136
02:03:47,840 --> 02:03:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, my only fear is if I totally do it,

2137
02:03:52,160 --> 02:03:54,920
Speaker 1: what happens if it, even this doesn't come back, right

2138
02:03:55,040 --> 02:03:58,680
Speaker 1: the fear us middle aged men have about what what

2139
02:03:58,760 --> 02:04:01,480
Speaker 1: if it doesn't come back? I was watching a basketball

2140
02:04:01,480 --> 02:04:05,200
Speaker 1: game over the weekend. The GWA Revolutionaries were in the

2141
02:04:05,360 --> 02:04:08,080
Speaker 1: in the Orange Bowl, this Orange Bowl tournament down in

2142
02:04:08,120 --> 02:04:12,480
Speaker 1: Fort Lauderdale. We were playing GW was playing Florida. I

2143
02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:15,920
Speaker 1: think they hung held pretty well, they'd hit their free throws.

2144
02:04:15,960 --> 02:04:18,040
Speaker 1: They might have won that game. I think it was

2145
02:04:18,360 --> 02:04:21,440
Speaker 1: a pretty good test that you know, GW, I think

2146
02:04:21,600 --> 02:04:25,080
Speaker 1: is a mid major that may make a strong case

2147
02:04:25,160 --> 02:04:28,640
Speaker 1: to get into the NCAA tournament. But the other game

2148
02:04:28,720 --> 02:04:31,760
Speaker 1: was UMass versus Florida State. And UMass is coached by

2149
02:04:31,800 --> 02:04:34,280
Speaker 1: a Miami native named Frank Martin. He was the guy

2150
02:04:34,280 --> 02:04:36,840
Speaker 1: that took South Carolina. Well he's gone full head shave,

2151
02:04:37,760 --> 02:04:40,080
Speaker 1: and he looks great. I mean, kudos to him. I

2152
02:04:40,080 --> 02:04:42,320
Speaker 1: would not have thought that he would have done the

2153
02:04:42,400 --> 02:04:44,800
Speaker 1: c ball thing very well. He does it well. He

2154
02:04:44,840 --> 02:04:47,720
Speaker 1: looks good, just as menacing. I'd still be afraid of

2155
02:04:48,680 --> 02:04:52,200
Speaker 1: him coaching a team on the other side, but it

2156
02:04:52,240 --> 02:04:54,560
Speaker 1: looked like there's nothing that will grow back, you know.

2157
02:04:54,800 --> 02:04:57,280
Speaker 1: So that's my fear of playing the head shave game.

2158
02:04:59,200 --> 02:05:03,280
Speaker 1: We'll see. I'd say that I think solicit fears he

2159
02:05:03,320 --> 02:05:06,000
Speaker 1: can't grow beer. We'll see. I'll ask him about this

2160
02:05:06,360 --> 02:05:08,320
Speaker 1: on our next episode. All right. Next question comes from

2161
02:05:08,680 --> 02:05:11,720
Speaker 1: Andre from Los Angeles An. He writes, Hey, Chuck, why

2162
02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:13,560
Speaker 1: is it that when someone announces a run for office,

2163
02:05:13,600 --> 02:05:15,920
Speaker 1: the first focus is always on who their donors are

2164
02:05:15,960 --> 02:05:18,800
Speaker 1: and whether these donors will approve It feels like candidates

2165
02:05:18,800 --> 02:05:21,400
Speaker 1: are vetted by donors, consultants, and party brass long before

2166
02:05:21,400 --> 02:05:24,000
Speaker 1: they ever reached voters, which makes them seem into authentic.

2167
02:05:24,080 --> 02:05:27,120
Speaker 1: Voters want real, opinionated leaders who feel genuine, not prepackaged

2168
02:05:27,120 --> 02:05:29,400
Speaker 1: for donor approval. Why has the donor class become the

2169
02:05:29,440 --> 02:05:36,240
Speaker 1: priority over the general public? Andre la go bruins hashtag UCLA. Well,

2170
02:05:36,280 --> 02:05:39,400
Speaker 1: because of how expensive campaigns have become I'm not saying

2171
02:05:39,640 --> 02:05:42,560
Speaker 1: that's a good answer, in just telling you it is

2172
02:05:42,640 --> 02:05:48,160
Speaker 1: the answer, And there is a perception of viability has

2173
02:05:48,200 --> 02:05:51,000
Speaker 1: to do with access to money, whether you have it yourself,

2174
02:05:51,040 --> 02:05:53,120
Speaker 1: you have the donor. You know, it's sort of this

2175
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:57,320
Speaker 1: dovetails pretty well with the question about Adam Schiff. Look,

2176
02:05:57,400 --> 02:06:00,200
Speaker 1: there's no doubt we have made money in politics. The

2177
02:06:00,200 --> 02:06:02,400
Speaker 1: fact that there is no regulation of money in politics,

2178
02:06:02,480 --> 02:06:06,360
Speaker 1: right we have essentially have unregulated money in politics. They're okay,

2179
02:06:06,400 --> 02:06:08,040
Speaker 1: so you have to follow a couple, You have to

2180
02:06:08,120 --> 02:06:12,240
Speaker 1: jump a very small hurdle or two to maybe spend

2181
02:06:12,320 --> 02:06:16,200
Speaker 1: money that raised a certain way on these few logistics

2182
02:06:16,200 --> 02:06:19,640
Speaker 1: things for a campaign. But then you spend money over

2183
02:06:19,680 --> 02:06:23,120
Speaker 1: here there is no we have. This is why I'm

2184
02:06:23,160 --> 02:06:25,520
Speaker 1: a huge fan of a constitutional you know, we need

2185
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:27,760
Speaker 1: a constitutional amendment to deal with this. We're going to

2186
02:06:27,840 --> 02:06:31,280
Speaker 1: have to. I think there's some common sense campaign finance

2187
02:06:32,520 --> 02:06:37,160
Speaker 1: regulations that people could agree on. I think the idea

2188
02:06:37,160 --> 02:06:39,880
Speaker 1: of keeping corporations out of politics makes a hell of

2189
02:06:39,880 --> 02:06:43,440
Speaker 1: a lot sense. Figuring out how to have complete transparency,

2190
02:06:43,480 --> 02:06:47,800
Speaker 1: I mean, anonymous donors dark money are terrible. We basically

2191
02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:51,680
Speaker 1: have one or two people that are representing somewhere between

2192
02:06:52,240 --> 02:06:55,520
Speaker 1: thirty and thirty percent of all money spent is probably

2193
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:59,040
Speaker 1: among a group of people that's less than ten. That

2194
02:06:59,280 --> 02:07:02,760
Speaker 1: is an out of democracy, right, That is a plutocracy

2195
02:07:02,960 --> 02:07:05,640
Speaker 1: or an oligarchy, if I to borrow some language that

2196
02:07:05,640 --> 02:07:08,880
Speaker 1: are out there. I hate saying oligarchy because it sounds

2197
02:07:08,920 --> 02:07:11,720
Speaker 1: like I'm taking a political side, but we have the

2198
02:07:11,800 --> 02:07:14,680
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is the richer you are, the

2199
02:07:14,680 --> 02:07:21,840
Speaker 1: more access you have to political leaders hard stop. And

2200
02:07:21,880 --> 02:07:25,640
Speaker 1: that's a maybe that's never going to change, but we

2201
02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:29,400
Speaker 1: could put some more transparency and some more limits on

2202
02:07:29,560 --> 02:07:33,360
Speaker 1: how that works. But I'm not saying it should be

2203
02:07:33,400 --> 02:07:36,040
Speaker 1: this way. But you're asking why does this happen? Because

2204
02:07:36,160 --> 02:07:38,840
Speaker 1: viability goes through money. Now, the good news is the

2205
02:07:38,880 --> 02:07:42,680
Speaker 1: Internet has been a bit of a leveler there. Act

2206
02:07:42,760 --> 02:07:45,240
Speaker 1: Blue and When Red both have found a way to

2207
02:07:46,520 --> 02:07:51,000
Speaker 1: take to allow at least grassroots donors to power candidacies.

2208
02:07:52,840 --> 02:07:56,080
Speaker 1: And you can now do that, right Marjorie Taylor Green

2209
02:07:56,200 --> 02:07:59,800
Speaker 1: can do it. AOC can do it, and they've figured

2210
02:07:59,800 --> 02:08:02,200
Speaker 1: out how to tap into that. So the power of

2211
02:08:02,200 --> 02:08:05,440
Speaker 1: the small donor is not totally in fact, in some

2212
02:08:05,480 --> 02:08:09,040
Speaker 1: ways small donor because of the collective nature of it

2213
02:08:09,440 --> 02:08:13,200
Speaker 1: have become a more powerful as powerful of an entity

2214
02:08:13,240 --> 02:08:16,320
Speaker 1: at times that some of these corporate super PACs can be. So.

2215
02:08:17,400 --> 02:08:20,640
Speaker 1: But look, we do this in this case, the system

2216
02:08:20,640 --> 02:08:24,120
Speaker 1: has broken. We have unregulated amount of money. I'm sort

2217
02:08:24,120 --> 02:08:27,800
Speaker 1: of a Nascar person in this respect. Let's go full transparency.

2218
02:08:27,840 --> 02:08:31,640
Speaker 1: But you have to actually identify your major donors, if

2219
02:08:31,720 --> 02:08:35,880
Speaker 1: you if you made every person have to spell out

2220
02:08:36,040 --> 02:08:39,240
Speaker 1: the names of donors who have given them, say more

2221
02:08:39,240 --> 02:08:41,360
Speaker 1: than one hundred thousand dollars or more, I promise you

2222
02:08:41,360 --> 02:08:44,800
Speaker 1: they'd never take a donation more than nine nine and

2223
02:08:44,840 --> 02:08:49,120
Speaker 1: ninety nine dollars, right, whatever threshold we create, you know,

2224
02:08:50,040 --> 02:08:52,320
Speaker 1: like I'm all for you want to have unlimited funding

2225
02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:54,680
Speaker 1: in your elections, fine, but anybody that gives you more

2226
02:08:54,680 --> 02:08:58,080
Speaker 1: than ninety nine hundred dollars, you have to name them

2227
02:08:58,120 --> 02:09:00,880
Speaker 1: in every single app and you've got to where their

2228
02:09:01,000 --> 02:09:05,280
Speaker 1: logos on your paraphernalia, if you will. Right, That's what

2229
02:09:05,320 --> 02:09:10,240
Speaker 1: I mean by the nascarization of it. I think that

2230
02:09:10,360 --> 02:09:15,760
Speaker 1: if as long as people know who's behind things, then

2231
02:09:15,800 --> 02:09:18,360
Speaker 1: at least you're giving the voters a fighting chance to

2232
02:09:18,440 --> 02:09:23,080
Speaker 1: make their decision. All right, I'm mistaking one more question here,

2233
02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:25,760
Speaker 1: So I can say that at least knock out four today.

2234
02:09:25,800 --> 02:09:29,800
Speaker 1: This one comes from Sean McElroy Byfield, Massachusetts, and he writes, Hey, Chuck,

2235
02:09:30,040 --> 02:09:32,360
Speaker 1: why is it that corporations going to absorb tariff costs

2236
02:09:32,400 --> 02:09:35,240
Speaker 1: for months but push back immediately when asked to raise wages?

2237
02:09:35,560 --> 02:09:38,200
Speaker 1: After COVID, we saw quick inflation tied to wage increases,

2238
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:41,160
Speaker 1: but terif related price hikes seem delayed. I've read that

2239
02:09:41,200 --> 02:09:43,760
Speaker 1: Costco expects TARI free funds, that is, offering credit now

2240
02:09:43,760 --> 02:09:47,560
Speaker 1: to investors to soften consumer impacts while boosting future profits. Curiously,

2241
02:09:47,560 --> 02:09:49,200
Speaker 1: if you've heard more about that, any thoughts on the

2242
02:09:49,240 --> 02:09:53,560
Speaker 1: disconnect between political focus and stagnant worker incomes. Well, look,

2243
02:09:53,600 --> 02:09:55,360
Speaker 1: I think on the tariff, the reason some of this

2244
02:09:55,520 --> 02:09:59,400
Speaker 1: is you had a lot of companies stockpile right. You know,

2245
02:10:01,000 --> 02:10:02,720
Speaker 1: Trump made it clear what he was going to do

2246
02:10:03,640 --> 02:10:06,280
Speaker 1: with this tariff, So you did have plenty of company

2247
02:10:06,360 --> 02:10:11,600
Speaker 1: stockpile inventory where you could. Right you couldn't do it

2248
02:10:11,640 --> 02:10:15,000
Speaker 1: in food, in fresh food and produce and things like that,

2249
02:10:15,360 --> 02:10:19,160
Speaker 1: but you could stock up on certain goods in your

2250
02:10:19,280 --> 02:10:22,160
Speaker 1: and essentially warehouse them. And a place like Costco is

2251
02:10:22,960 --> 02:10:25,920
Speaker 1: something that has the has the ability to do that

2252
02:10:26,840 --> 02:10:30,839
Speaker 1: and so I think that's why they could quote unquote

2253
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:33,920
Speaker 1: absorb some of it early because they had still had

2254
02:10:33,960 --> 02:10:35,920
Speaker 1: a majority of their inventory out there that they had

2255
02:10:35,960 --> 02:10:39,680
Speaker 1: purchased without having to pay, without having to deal with

2256
02:10:39,720 --> 02:10:44,520
Speaker 1: extra tariffs. But look, you're you know, why do corporations

2257
02:10:44,520 --> 02:10:47,080
Speaker 1: constantly look for ways to show that they're saving money? Right?

2258
02:10:47,120 --> 02:10:49,120
Speaker 1: That might be another way that you asked that question, right,

2259
02:10:49,120 --> 02:10:53,160
Speaker 1: They constantly It's why why are companies not hiring at

2260
02:10:53,160 --> 02:10:55,720
Speaker 1: the moment? They all want to see how many jobs

2261
02:10:55,760 --> 02:10:58,360
Speaker 1: can they replace with AI. They're not going to they

2262
02:10:58,360 --> 02:11:00,960
Speaker 1: know they can't replace all jobs with A, but they

2263
02:11:01,040 --> 02:11:03,280
Speaker 1: want to know which ones they can, and before they

2264
02:11:03,320 --> 02:11:05,920
Speaker 1: replace anybody, they want to try to see if they

2265
02:11:05,960 --> 02:11:10,720
Speaker 1: can replace them of AI corp. A publicly traded companies

2266
02:11:11,120 --> 02:11:13,760
Speaker 1: simply have a fudiciary responsibility for their shareholders, and their

2267
02:11:13,760 --> 02:11:18,520
Speaker 1: shareholders only reward cost efficiencies. That is, that is not

2268
02:11:18,640 --> 02:11:21,520
Speaker 1: good for rising you know, for the hopes of rising wages,

2269
02:11:21,560 --> 02:11:28,280
Speaker 1: and it is certainly makes stockpiling expensive inventory difficult as

2270
02:11:28,320 --> 02:11:30,280
Speaker 1: well if you're going to load them up with tariff.

2271
02:11:30,360 --> 02:11:34,360
Speaker 1: So you know, this is why what Trump has done

2272
02:11:34,360 --> 02:11:37,080
Speaker 1: to this economy, that the rise of tariff costs also

2273
02:11:37,240 --> 02:11:44,360
Speaker 1: in it inadvertently end up costing working class people a

2274
02:11:44,440 --> 02:11:47,720
Speaker 1: chance at a raise. Right, If goods were cheaper, more

2275
02:11:47,720 --> 02:11:49,960
Speaker 1: people might buy them, and you might need more people

2276
02:11:50,000 --> 02:11:53,560
Speaker 1: to actually delve out that inventory. So you know, this

2277
02:11:53,720 --> 02:11:56,680
Speaker 1: is why this tariff policy of the presidents is so

2278
02:11:57,360 --> 02:12:00,480
Speaker 1: bad for the economy. It just simply shrinks our GDP

2279
02:12:01,120 --> 02:12:04,320
Speaker 1: shrinks in a way that that will just hurt everything.

2280
02:12:06,400 --> 02:12:10,600
Speaker 1: Fewer people buy items, which means you'll have fewer employees,

2281
02:12:10,760 --> 02:12:13,560
Speaker 1: fewer wage, fewer people gaining a wage as it is,

2282
02:12:13,600 --> 02:12:18,240
Speaker 1: and fewer people getting higher wages. Bottom line is, tariffs

2283
02:12:18,360 --> 02:12:21,800
Speaker 1: are bad for everybody. There is no good that comes

2284
02:12:21,840 --> 02:12:25,920
Speaker 1: from these tariffs. Hard stop. I don't know how many

2285
02:12:26,280 --> 02:12:38,720
Speaker 1: thousands of different ways we can put that before we

2286
02:12:38,760 --> 02:12:43,640
Speaker 1: go a little A few things in college football, and

2287
02:12:43,640 --> 02:12:45,240
Speaker 1: and look, I don't want to. I got a few

2288
02:12:45,440 --> 02:12:50,120
Speaker 1: emails about the mess in Michigan. And what's uncomfortable about

2289
02:12:50,160 --> 02:12:53,760
Speaker 1: the mess in Michigan is Sharon Moore and some in

2290
02:12:53,840 --> 02:12:57,920
Speaker 1: what happened there is is this uncomfortable truth there seem

2291
02:12:58,040 --> 02:13:01,720
Speaker 1: to be you know, in the world of college sports

2292
02:13:01,800 --> 02:13:06,360
Speaker 1: right now, if you win, your behavior will get They'll

2293
02:13:06,400 --> 02:13:09,160
Speaker 1: find a way to bury your behavior, overlook it, or

2294
02:13:09,320 --> 02:13:11,680
Speaker 1: just suspend you a game or two, slap you on

2295
02:13:11,720 --> 02:13:13,720
Speaker 1: the wrist. But as long as you produce a national title,

2296
02:13:13,800 --> 02:13:17,640
Speaker 1: Jim Harbaugh, nothing is going to go wrong. But when

2297
02:13:17,640 --> 02:13:21,360
Speaker 1: things don't go well, then and and and maybe your

2298
02:13:21,400 --> 02:13:25,640
Speaker 1: offense isn't going well, then suddenly people have decided that

2299
02:13:25,720 --> 02:13:29,200
Speaker 1: your morals or ethics are a problem. And we don't

2300
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:31,240
Speaker 1: know the full story in Michigan, but let's just say

2301
02:13:31,280 --> 02:13:34,240
Speaker 1: I haven't I know enough people in the sports industry world,

2302
02:13:34,400 --> 02:13:38,360
Speaker 1: in the world of agents. This is not rank speculation.

2303
02:13:40,160 --> 02:13:42,880
Speaker 1: You know, there was a there was a concerted effort

2304
02:13:42,920 --> 02:13:46,280
Speaker 1: that that more had to go, but they needed a reason,

2305
02:13:46,280 --> 02:13:48,040
Speaker 1: in a rationale, and they didn't want to spend on

2306
02:13:48,080 --> 02:13:51,720
Speaker 1: the buyout. Now that doesn't excuse his behavior, and he

2307
02:13:52,040 --> 02:13:54,160
Speaker 1: and I you know, for the life of me, you know,

2308
02:13:54,360 --> 02:13:57,640
Speaker 1: to me, if you're if you're going to sleep with

2309
02:13:57,720 --> 02:14:02,000
Speaker 1: an employee at a public institution, you're consequences any institution,

2310
02:14:02,200 --> 02:14:04,120
Speaker 1: and you know, you get caught, you're going to live

2311
02:14:04,120 --> 02:14:06,720
Speaker 1: with the consequences. And this has been a very expensive

2312
02:14:06,720 --> 02:14:11,440
Speaker 1: consequence for him on that front. But we need to

2313
02:14:11,520 --> 02:14:16,240
Speaker 1: learn a lot more about when was this first known, how,

2314
02:14:16,280 --> 02:14:19,080
Speaker 1: what would this and when when did this investigation happen?

2315
02:14:19,560 --> 02:14:23,160
Speaker 1: Why was it cleared once? Right? Sounds like there was

2316
02:14:23,240 --> 02:14:26,160
Speaker 1: no they had no cooperating evidence, and then suddenly they did.

2317
02:14:26,760 --> 02:14:29,720
Speaker 1: Why did this person suddenly provide evidence to the school

2318
02:14:29,720 --> 02:14:31,839
Speaker 1: when they did? And why didn't they do it before?

2319
02:14:32,200 --> 02:14:36,080
Speaker 1: How is it that it conveniently happened after signing day? Anyway,

2320
02:14:36,120 --> 02:14:39,240
Speaker 1: the point is is that the corruption of college sports, right,

2321
02:14:39,320 --> 02:14:42,440
Speaker 1: we know, it's there's a there's a It is a mess.

2322
02:14:42,840 --> 02:14:45,880
Speaker 1: It is ugly, it is scandalous, and even an elite

2323
02:14:45,920 --> 02:14:48,480
Speaker 1: institution like the University of Michigan is not immune from this.

2324
02:14:49,440 --> 02:14:52,000
Speaker 1: But the problem is, we have no entity who's going

2325
02:14:52,000 --> 02:14:54,520
Speaker 1: to investigate the University of Michigan. Do the NC DOUBA

2326
02:14:54,560 --> 02:14:57,480
Speaker 1: have any credibility to do this? Will they even listen

2327
02:14:57,560 --> 02:15:00,240
Speaker 1: to the NC double A? Right? When when Michigan was

2328
02:15:01,200 --> 02:15:04,320
Speaker 1: sign stealing, you know they yeah, okay, they suspended somebody,

2329
02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:07,040
Speaker 1: they find somebody. But last I checked, the University of

2330
02:15:07,040 --> 02:15:11,720
Speaker 1: Michigan won a national title miraculously after they've suddenly figured

2331
02:15:11,760 --> 02:15:15,000
Speaker 1: out sign stealing seemed to improve. You know, Jim Harbaugh

2332
02:15:15,080 --> 02:15:17,120
Speaker 1: was having a hard time winning nine or ten games.

2333
02:15:17,240 --> 02:15:19,720
Speaker 1: Then suddenly they started sign stealing and everything got better.

2334
02:15:21,440 --> 02:15:25,520
Speaker 1: So it's a I'm singling out Michigan here because I

2335
02:15:25,520 --> 02:15:28,040
Speaker 1: think Michigan is you know, this is sort of like, boy,

2336
02:15:28,280 --> 02:15:30,840
Speaker 1: how many how much rotten fish is in this program

2337
02:15:31,400 --> 02:15:33,520
Speaker 1: on these different things. But it's really this is not

2338
02:15:33,560 --> 02:15:36,600
Speaker 1: about Michigan. This is about the entire sport, right, you know,

2339
02:15:36,680 --> 02:15:39,360
Speaker 1: I love it. I love college football. You guys know this.

2340
02:15:40,640 --> 02:15:43,520
Speaker 1: I ache for all this paid me. Look, University of Miami,

2341
02:15:43,560 --> 02:15:46,200
Speaker 1: We've been through this. We've had our own bad apples

2342
02:15:47,600 --> 02:15:50,400
Speaker 1: do some things in the past, don't get me wrong,

2343
02:15:50,560 --> 02:15:52,240
Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna you know, this is not a

2344
02:15:52,320 --> 02:15:55,400
Speaker 1: case we all the entire world of college football lives

2345
02:15:55,640 --> 02:15:58,600
Speaker 1: in not just a glasshouse. I would call it water

2346
02:15:58,640 --> 02:16:02,520
Speaker 1: for crystal houses, if you will, right, And there's our

2347
02:16:02,560 --> 02:16:07,520
Speaker 1: broken windows everywhere. But you know, ultimately the problem is

2348
02:16:07,600 --> 02:16:11,080
Speaker 1: the conferences have too much power, and we need you

2349
02:16:11,160 --> 02:16:15,560
Speaker 1: need a singular commissioner of college football, a singular commissioner

2350
02:16:15,600 --> 02:16:21,120
Speaker 1: of college basketball, a singular commissioner of sort of the

2351
02:16:21,200 --> 02:16:24,120
Speaker 1: for profits sports. Right. We probably have to separate it

2352
02:16:24,160 --> 02:16:28,160
Speaker 1: out a little bit, if you will. But this the

2353
02:16:28,240 --> 02:16:34,080
Speaker 1: amount of influence that agents and boosters now have over

2354
02:16:34,120 --> 02:16:38,640
Speaker 1: and above academic leaders or institutional leaders, athletic directors, you

2355
02:16:38,720 --> 02:16:41,520
Speaker 1: name it. You know the athletic directors are not in

2356
02:16:41,600 --> 02:16:44,840
Speaker 1: charge in most of these places. It's the person that

2357
02:16:44,959 --> 02:16:48,840
Speaker 1: runs the outside nil and raises the hundreds of the

2358
02:16:49,440 --> 02:16:52,320
Speaker 1: tens of millions of dollars. At these major college institutions

2359
02:16:52,360 --> 02:16:58,200
Speaker 1: need to make payroll. They're in charge. The football coaches

2360
02:16:58,240 --> 02:17:01,960
Speaker 1: do not work for the university residence. The football coaches

2361
02:17:02,040 --> 02:17:06,000
Speaker 1: work for the entity that has promised to give the

2362
02:17:06,000 --> 02:17:10,000
Speaker 1: most money. I saw that. I saw that at my

2363
02:17:10,040 --> 02:17:13,200
Speaker 1: beloved institution, right some major donors were willing to give

2364
02:17:13,280 --> 02:17:15,920
Speaker 1: more money if a certain person was hired as coach.

2365
02:17:17,440 --> 02:17:22,880
Speaker 1: That's been true of a lot of institutions. So it

2366
02:17:22,959 --> 02:17:28,760
Speaker 1: is the system is broken. It is messed up. Perhaps

2367
02:17:28,840 --> 02:17:31,560
Speaker 1: you write rules that maybe allow for this in some form,

2368
02:17:31,640 --> 02:17:34,800
Speaker 1: but you've got to have an accepted, shared set of rules,

2369
02:17:34,800 --> 02:17:38,040
Speaker 1: and right now we really don't have any. It is

2370
02:17:39,920 --> 02:17:43,480
Speaker 1: only media reports that at best create the opportunity for

2371
02:17:43,520 --> 02:17:48,560
Speaker 1: shame to kick in. But this is you know, there's

2372
02:17:48,600 --> 02:17:52,360
Speaker 1: the specifics themselves of what happened at Michigan, and then

2373
02:17:52,440 --> 02:17:57,080
Speaker 1: there's the So there really needs to be an investigation

2374
02:17:57,160 --> 02:17:59,959
Speaker 1: of how the initial investigation happened and how new evidence

2375
02:18:00,080 --> 02:18:03,040
Speaker 1: popped up. That's all I'm going to say here. Okay,

2376
02:18:03,240 --> 02:18:08,520
Speaker 1: I I am, I've got I've got plenty of interesting

2377
02:18:10,080 --> 02:18:12,480
Speaker 1: sources that have that have told me some interesting things

2378
02:18:12,520 --> 02:18:15,039
Speaker 1: about this situation. But the reason it needs to be

2379
02:18:15,120 --> 02:18:18,360
Speaker 1: rooted out because it's this is again, Michigan is just

2380
02:18:19,680 --> 02:18:26,400
Speaker 1: an example of what is a larger, more broken and

2381
02:18:24,560 --> 02:18:28,120
Speaker 1: uh and I don't think any of us would be

2382
02:18:28,160 --> 02:18:32,560
Speaker 1: comfortable finding out what our favorite schools were doing. I

2383
02:18:32,560 --> 02:18:35,480
Speaker 1: think there would be I imagine there's not a major

2384
02:18:35,520 --> 02:18:38,880
Speaker 1: college football program in America that does things that would

2385
02:18:38,879 --> 02:18:43,800
Speaker 1: make every single alum prout, every single fan proud. And

2386
02:18:44,200 --> 02:18:48,160
Speaker 1: it is I hate. I hate having to defend the

2387
02:18:48,240 --> 02:18:50,920
Speaker 1: system at times as a fan because I still love it.

2388
02:18:50,920 --> 02:18:55,240
Speaker 1: It's still I think college football because of the unpredictability

2389
02:18:55,280 --> 02:18:58,280
Speaker 1: of what kids. There's still kids, they're still growing up,

2390
02:18:58,320 --> 02:19:01,800
Speaker 1: they're still learning. There's that unpredictability. There's the passion of

2391
02:19:01,840 --> 02:19:05,680
Speaker 1: fan bases, which other than the Steelers and the Packers,

2392
02:19:05,879 --> 02:19:09,280
Speaker 1: there's really no you know, maybe Eagles and Cowboys too,

2393
02:19:09,600 --> 02:19:12,600
Speaker 1: but there's really the pro fan bases are not like

2394
02:19:12,640 --> 02:19:16,960
Speaker 1: college fan bases. They're just different hanging out with drunk

2395
02:19:16,959 --> 02:19:19,320
Speaker 1: twenty year olds is better to watch than hanging out

2396
02:19:19,360 --> 02:19:21,720
Speaker 1: with drunk fifty year olds too, right, if you're at

2397
02:19:21,800 --> 02:19:28,120
Speaker 1: an NFL game versus a college game. But ultimately, we're

2398
02:19:28,120 --> 02:19:29,760
Speaker 1: going to have to have Congress step in. They're going

2399
02:19:29,840 --> 02:19:32,560
Speaker 1: to have to give an antitrust exemption in some form

2400
02:19:32,600 --> 02:19:35,120
Speaker 1: because they're going to have to create We can't have

2401
02:19:35,160 --> 02:19:38,400
Speaker 1: small d democratic tools attempting to govern college sports. You're

2402
02:19:38,440 --> 02:19:43,320
Speaker 1: going to need a commissioner AKA some sort of almost

2403
02:19:43,760 --> 02:19:48,440
Speaker 1: authoritarian type of situation, chairman of the board, board of

2404
02:19:48,480 --> 02:19:52,040
Speaker 1: directors CEO, that sort of thing, with some accountability because

2405
02:19:52,080 --> 02:19:55,400
Speaker 1: this is embarrassing the sport all the time, and there's

2406
02:19:55,440 --> 02:19:57,240
Speaker 1: too much money at stake, and we have that much

2407
02:19:57,240 --> 02:19:58,920
Speaker 1: money at stake, you're gonna have lawsuit, You're gonna have

2408
02:19:58,920 --> 02:20:01,120
Speaker 1: people being live and all of that stuff. So you

2409
02:20:01,240 --> 02:20:04,119
Speaker 1: kind of need a structure and some sort of rule

2410
02:20:04,160 --> 02:20:08,360
Speaker 1: of law to govern college sports. That is fair, all right.

2411
02:20:08,480 --> 02:20:10,800
Speaker 1: I will stop with my rant there, but I felt like,

2412
02:20:11,000 --> 02:20:13,040
Speaker 1: as much as I want to celebrate, and I've got

2413
02:20:13,080 --> 02:20:17,080
Speaker 1: a lot I'm going to celebrate on the later this week,

2414
02:20:17,120 --> 02:20:20,200
Speaker 1: I will share with you my favorite pathways for Miami

2415
02:20:20,480 --> 02:20:25,000
Speaker 1: and the different storylines on different potential matchups that they

2416
02:20:25,000 --> 02:20:28,119
Speaker 1: can have in the college football playoff. Let's just say, boy,

2417
02:20:28,160 --> 02:20:31,640
Speaker 1: for Miami's own reputational sake, they better win one. They

2418
02:20:31,720 --> 02:20:38,240
Speaker 1: better win one, and we'll go from there. All right,

2419
02:20:38,920 --> 02:20:41,600
Speaker 1: I've gone on a bit now. This is a pretty

2420
02:20:41,680 --> 02:20:44,760
Speaker 1: thick Monday episode. We did some dark, some light, and

2421
02:20:44,840 --> 02:20:48,080
Speaker 1: everything in between. I really appreciate you listening. Our growth

2422
02:20:48,120 --> 02:20:52,000
Speaker 1: has been amazing. I know part of the why independent

2423
02:20:52,040 --> 02:20:55,440
Speaker 1: media is growing because you've lost so much trust in

2424
02:20:55,879 --> 02:21:00,720
Speaker 1: what's happened with the intimidated corporate owned media, which is sad.

2425
02:21:01,720 --> 02:21:02,960
Speaker 1: I have a lot of good friends over there who

2426
02:21:03,000 --> 02:21:05,840
Speaker 1: are fighting a good fight, but the institutions are just

2427
02:21:05,920 --> 02:21:08,880
Speaker 1: trying to trying to prevent them from doing the work

2428
02:21:08,920 --> 02:21:11,600
Speaker 1: that they want to do, which is a huge disappointment.

2429
02:21:11,600 --> 02:21:15,440
Speaker 1: But guess what, there are always alternatives, including right here.

2430
02:21:15,520 --> 02:21:17,520
Speaker 1: So thank you for listening. I appreciate it, and I'll

2431
02:21:17,520 --> 02:21:18,520
Speaker 1: see in forty eight hours.